49. The Price English Learners Pay for Systemic Racism With Teacher Will

Welcome to the Influency Podcast. I'm Hadar and this is episode number 49. And today we are going to talk about. Okay, take a deep breath. The price English learners pay for systemic racism.

Hey.

Hey, how are you doing? Thank you so much for joining me again. I'm so happy to have you here. So what I want to share with you today is an interview I had with teacher Will from Ask Teacher Will. You can find him on Instagram and on YouTube. Now this has been one of the most interesting and insightful conversation that I've ever had, especially about the state of the English learning industry and the way English is being taught on YouTube. Now, it is related to everything that has been going on with the Black Lives Matter movement, White privilege, privilege in general, and all of these things that truly affect English learners. And it's important to acknowledge it and to talk about it and to become aware of it as learners and as educators and creators and teachers. And I don't want to talk a lot because we really cover everything in the interview. And what Will has to share there is simply incredible and so insightful. And I'm sure you can learn and benefit from that. Also his analogies and metaphors and the, the way he explains things, I mean, no wonder he's a teacher. The way he explains things about racism and systemic racism, individual racism is just. It makes it so clear and understandable. And sometimes we get. We shut down when we hear these discussions because we're like, oh, I know all about that. Like I can't, you know, positive, positive energies only. But these are important things to know and to listen to even if you don't live in the US because racism is everywhere and discrimination and prejudice and we all need to acknowledge that and to look at ourselves and our privilege and to see who is being hurt because of that. And that's it. So if you are interested also, it's a great opportunity to practice your English. A lot of idioms, expressions and vocabulary that is used in contemporary conversation. So let's go ahead and listen to the interview I had with teacher Will on the live English show every Thursday at 12pm EST. And once you are done listening to the episode, come on over to Instagram and tell me what you think and share with me your thoughts, feelings and ideas. I'm Hadar Accentsway. Okay, so let's listen.

My name is Tucharwal. I am American. I was born in America. And before I entered the teaching world for about years, over 20 years, I entered the business. I was in the Business arena. The business had various different roles, from business development to sales. And then the one great constant of the world is change. I went back in about 2011 and I went back and received, went back to get my TESOL certification because the economy was crazy at the time. And so I decided to enter the world of teaching. Looked at three particular China, South Korea, Saudi Arabia. So I'm currently in Saudi Arabia. I've been teaching here since 2011. I love the industry, I love teaching. I finally found my passion for me and my approach to teaching is. And again, it's just my approach. I believe that because English is a global, international language, it has the right to be spoken by everyone. And English can be learned in any situation. English to me is more than vocabulary and grammar, though those are the foundations of the language. English can be learned with respect to or as relates to movies. English can be learned as if one wants or needs information in terms of a restaurant. And English, ladies and gentlemen, I believe, can also be learned by talking about topics around the world that either directly or indirectly might impact you, because the common tongue at this particular moment or on this particular call is English. So thank you very much for inviting me. The theme that I have is kind of like, I really have themes since I've been on this social media journey. One is we learn together. And I really believe that if indeed that we say we are all human beings and we have humans on the call, we learn together. Learn is the acquisition or can be defined as the acquisition of knowledge. And so just because my job or my title as a teacher does not mean that I cannot acquire knowledge from anyone, particularly someone that has had a different experience from my own. So we learn together as one important thing to me and the other thing is motivation. Inspiration through want, through English. In my own life, I have been motivated. Motivated or motivation being defined as some internal feeling where I'm going to be influenced or inspiration. I've been motivated or inspired by other people in my life, family, friends, loved ones, teachers that I've had in the past. And I've been motivated by that. But for me, one of the reasons why I love that phrase, motivation, inspiration through English is for people, particularly on the call at the moment. You might be inspired and motivated by people or things, but I believe it is important never to take your own self out of that motivation process. So it's very important, I believe, or try to encourage learners that are part of the ATW family to recognize that motivation inspiration starts from where, within. So thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much. So, like, this is really, really good. And it really shows a lot of knowledge as to the process of learning a language. And I can't help but ask. And I know that we have a lot of learners who are Arabic speakers. I can't help but ask, living in Saudi Arabia, like, how was your experience immersing a different culture, different language, and how is your Arabic?

And I've been. I was home in America in December and January. But by living in a different culture, in a different country, it's really made me appreciate my own values and my culture even more. It's made me appreciate being an American even more. I knew the value of being American. And what I would say is, is that based on my experiences, I had, I knew that I had certain freedoms. I know we had certain privileges. But living in Saudi Arabia, it's definitely made me appreciate a couple things. One is to recognize that freedom, and I knew this in America, but it's only exacerbated or I only have an enhanced appreciation for it. That freedom is never free, and freedom starts within. And that's particularly, I believe, applicable to one's learning English. That freedom is never free. And then also the ability to live in a culture different from my own has given me the appreciation of not understanding my own particular culture, my own particular values, but someone else, someone else's culture. So people call me, oh, you're an honorary Saudi, or you're honorary Jadawi. And I'm honored by that final statement. I would say on that is the following is that oftentimes people have asked me, okay, what do you like? What do you don't like? And so my thing is this. I will say that there are certain things that I love about Saudi Arabia, right? I have the choice of living here. If I ever want to go home, I can, and I will. I will not retire here. When people ask me the question and say, what don't I like? I typically respond, that's really not important because it's not my country. I really ask those people that are, like, say, from Saudi or the Arabic world, what don't you like? Because I think that's the more important conversation. But at the end, I think it is extremely important that anyone has the ability, if you can, to live in a different culture other than your own. And one language that you can do that is through English. With respect to my Arabic, I don't tell people the level of proficiency with respect to my Arabic. So that way, when they say bad things about me and they don't think I respond, think I respond to them. I'm like, they're like, oh, yeah, yeah. So. But I'm a work in progress. I do speak, I do speak. I also speak French, but on call. But I use the language. I use French or my limited Arabic with respect to, like, if I'm just speaking with family or friends, I love it.

So I have two things to say about that. One, I thought that you might avoid talking about your Arabic, and I'm glad that you did at the end. And I have to say that I am definitely working on learning Arabic. This is my goal for the next year or two. Because as an Israeli, I mean, it's a shame, it's a shame, it's a disgrace that I don't speak Arabic. So I know a little bit, but what you learn in school is just, you know, it's literary Arabic. You can't really, you can't really speak to people.

The Arabic that I know friends and family and I was taking formal classes and now it's like, now that I'm going back to work, the curfew will be lifted, but most of it has been online. So again, I think it's the, you know, the beautiful thing is, is that whether it's, whether it's Hebrew, whether it's Arabic, whether it's English, again, a part of the component of English is understanding culture and the cultural implications that English has in various different cultures. And that's why perception with respect to English might be different in certain parts of the world than other. And hopefully by that I've become a much more effective teacher because before I came here, I actually taught in America as well, in Chicago. So if anybody's on the call from Chicago. Hello from Chicago.

Yeah, I agree. And I think language acquisition and language learning, not acquisition, but language learning has become really, really accessible. So with everything that the online sphere has to offer. And the second thing that I wanted to say is about the cultural differences that you talked about. I recently had a workshop with my students about cross cultural communication, which is basically, how do you like, okay, there is English, right? But there is the nuanced English or the cultural aspect of a language that you don't usually learn in school or online or stuff like that. Like, how do you say something in a way that sounds easy or comfortable for the other person to learn to listen or to hear? Because sometimes you may say something and that's exactly like it's what you want. The message is the same, but it generates maybe resistance or frustration because of how you put it and how you said it. And this is, I think, a very frustrating aspect for especially immigrants living in the US or living and immersing themselves in a new culture, in a different culture that is not their own culture and that. And you speak English, where you speak English and you realize it's sometimes not enough to just know English because you need to understand the nuances, the cultural nuances. And one of the things that.

Gosh.

It'S like, there's so much to take in as an immigrant, you know, like, so many things that you have to take into consideration. But what we talked about there is the most important thing that no matter what happens as an American, communicating at work with someone who is non American or. Or as, let's say, me, I'm Israeli, I have a very way, like, we have a very direct form of communication. And I hear a lot of Israeli people, students saying, okay, Americans are sometimes, you know, it feels like they're artificial. They're not really close. And what they're doing is they're judging a certain person or culture through their cultural prism, through their lens. And it's really, really, it's. It's something that is not beneficial for the person. Speak for the judger and the person being judged, because you can't say about someone, oh, he's this or that, or why are they doing this? Because you are not taking into consideration the culture that they come from. And I believe that when we become more curious about other cultures and understand habits or behavior, I think we can be a lot more, much more compassionate communicators.

I definitely agree 100%. And what I would add on to that is that I think it's very important, at least for myself, is to realize that I don't leave my culture at the door. No learner, no one studying English leaves their English at the door. Now, that's something we might talk about later, and you might be encouraged to do that. But my experience is I don't leave who I am, my culture, how I identify myself at the door with respect to English, the only point I would add on briefly to that is, yes, is understanding the nuance of the particular culture. I am an immigrant to Saudi Arabia, and so therefore, I have to understand different levels of communication. I'm American. So as a result, my communication is considered direct, or sometimes my tone is considered direct. That might not be there for all individuals. So if we say that we're a human race, I would encourage anyone to do what you said, Teacher Hadar, and a sense of curiosity, a sense of curiosity of learning about an experience different than your own. You have that opportunity to do it in English. It might be challenging for individuals, or you might not come from a society or culture that allows that. And I understand that. But you do have an opportunity. But nuance is extremely, extremely important to understand.

So important. And it really kind, like, resolves a lot of issues about. Because, again, like, you hear the words, but you get a different message. And it's important to understand those nuances. Now, what's interesting is that you said you are considered to be direct in the culture that you're in. But if I, you know, for me, American culture is a lot less direct. So when I was working toward, like, when I was preparing for this workshop, I came across the cultural map, the Culture map by Erin Mayer Meyer. And you can Google it. I think it's really. It would be really interesting. And she maps out different cultures in scale of people who are more emotionally expressive and less emotionally expressive and more confrontational, versus less confrontational. And you could see, like, Israeli culture is all the way at the end of the. At the end and versus, let's say, Japanese culture, where it is less confrontational, less emotionally expressive. No judgment whatsoever. This is just like the result of a research showing how people communicate. So even when we think that our culture is either direct or indirect, it's always in relation to who you're speaking with, which is very, very interesting. Yeah. And that's like. Because of that, it's so important not to come with preconceived notions and ideas as to how one needs to communicate. And always check where you're at at a given moment, who you're speaking with, what their reaction is. Like, right before you decide on, oh, I should do this, I should do that. I mean, at the end of the day, and I agree with you 100% about never leave your. Who you are, your identity, and your culture at the door. Never, ever, ever. Even if people expect you to do that or ideas, you have ideas that you should leave it out the door. And even if you may face discrimination, because it's a tough world out there, and people do experience discrimination because of who they are, where they're from. But at the same time, I think that it would serve us as communicators and as people of the citizens of the world to. Because when we leave a part of us at the door, then we also leave a huge part of our confidence and our authenticity. And when we leave that out, it's really, really hard to be Present and to communicate fully and to have that amazing interaction that people can have, you know, even if it's just you buying groceries at the store.

Exactly. The only thing I would add on to that. Language, the goal of a language is to communicate thoughts and ideas. And by understanding, if I'm part of the global community or if I say that I'm part of the human race, then it's to understand and not to assume and not to have a bias or prejudice that the whole world should think like me. Or I'm going to assume that everybody has had the experience that I did. So therefore, again, understanding that this language is a global language, one of the global languages in the world. And it is important at least for me to take a look at my own biases and prejudices and not to throw that onto the rest of the world and understand that culture does impact language. And that's a lot of times can directly impact a person learning English. And if they feel that they don't understand nuance, then that can lead to self demotivation, lack of confidence. So I think what you're saying is exactly correct.

Which actually, like now, what you said now leads us to the real conversation that we're here for about, you know, because those ideas, they are rooted in a certain system and the system that we live in. I mean, we talk about it a lot now when it comes to everything that is happening in the U.S. and if you, you know, of course I would love for you to contribute to the conversation as much as you want about the Black Lives Matter movement. But it's not just about what's happening. It's about the system that has rooted racism in it without people even knowing. One of the biggest discussions here recently has been around privilege, in particular white privilege. And I am going to dare and say that this is something we experience in the ELT industry as well. I would love to hear from you, first of all about like your thoughts on the matter and also to ask you as a black man, have you ever experienced any sort of racism in the ELT industry from learners or in institutions, and if not, if you can share with us stories or anything so we know that this exists.

Okay, sure. Let me take a step back because I think what's important, I want the. I want to tell the audience a little story. I think it's important to define terminologies or words. So one word I want to talk about first is the aspect of privilege. And how do I define privilege? How does teacher will define privilege? I define privilege as an entitlement benefit or right. And then what I mean by that, let me use myself. I have a privilege. I'm a man. And in a world that I. I'm a man. So I might not have experienced certain things that a woman might not experience. So privileges, again, that's a privilege. And yes, ladies and gentlemen, I have a privilege. Being a native English speaker, I recognize that that's a privilege. Now, what I would ask people to think about is the following. This is my own personal take. I don't believe that everyone in the world has some sort of privilege in one way, shape, or form. It could be based on your gender. It could be based on where you live. It can be based on who you love. It can be based on your race, your ethnicity, your accent. But in every. Everyone in one way, shape or form has a privilege. It can be based on what you believe in and don't believe in, if you believe in God or spirit. So I believe that everyone in the world has privilege. What I believe is the following is, is that for me, as a human being who is living a particular experience and defined myself in a particular way and have been defined by others, is that I recognize and realize that, hey, for me, that everybody does not have the same privilege that I view. And I think that's important. So first is privilege. If people want to see additional information on thoughts, I did a video on my YouTube channel about that. So the first word is privilege. And then I'll get to your question. Racism. The next is bias. Prejudice. What does prejudice mean? I have a prejudice. Or people might say to you, oh, you know what? Or they might say to me, hey, teacher will, you're prejudice. Or they might ask you the question and you have an opportunity to ask yourself the question, are you prejudiced? Prejudice or bias? I would define as the following is that I would define prejudice as a preconceived notion or opinion of another person or group of people that are not living your experience. Perhaps you might be prejudiced because I have gray hair. You don't know me. So I'll use this story. Let's say, for example, I'm in the United States of America, and I'm walking down the street and I see three men that happen to have very long beards. They're walking into a car, and in that car, I see guns in the back of the car along with the Confederate flag. I don't know those people at all. But because of my experience of what I've experienced in my life, I have a prejudice. They could be the Nicest person in the world. But I have a preconceived notion and opinion of a person, place, thing or people based on whatever they are different from me. A preconceived notion. So think of it as, you know what, for example, some of you might be saying or looking at me and saying, oh, my God, I look the certain way that I am. Do I have a bias? Do I have a prejudice? And that prejudice is implicit. People might be saying that, oh, my teacher Haydar, she said she lives in Israel, and you might have an implicit bias or prejudice based on what leads.

You maybe define implicit for. No, no, no, go ahead. Just to take into consideration what would you. How would you define implicit? And then have them. And also I wrote a question, so share with us. What is your privilege?

Right?

And I love, I love what you said. And I think it's so important and I want each person here to like for a second think about what is one privilege that they have, right? Even being able bodied, right? Being able to walk, that's a privilege. So I want you to write it down.

I think that's a beautiful question because oftentimes I think what has occurred is people have not thought about that. They thought about the other privileges or privileges that were prevented from them, but they might not necessarily have thought about the privilege that they have. Here's a privilege that I think everyone has an opportunity to think about. If you're listening to this call right now, that is a privilege. Because there are people in the world that do not have any Internet connection, either by choice or they don't have the technology. So that's natural. That's a privilege. What I would define placid as its initial thought. People are fed images, like the first thing that comes to your mind, right? You might say, okay, William's American, or William's an African American, or he's black, or teacher Haydar is from Israel. And it's that little inner thought that you have to catch yourself, right? So again, there's nothing the matter, I believe, with privilege, as long as I recognize that everybody doesn't have the privilege that I do. So learners and family, what are your privileges? Do you recognize them? Number one. And additionally to that, have you ever thought about that? Because there might be some people in the world that have never thought in the world that they've had privilege. So we have privilege. We have prejudice or bias, preconceived notion or opinion of people. And then we come to this terminology called racism. Racism, racism. Particularly big. What's going on in the world right now, with respect to the United States, with respect to black Lives Matter, with respect to other moves in the world. But we hear this word racism. I define racism as the following. And I need people to listen to this. This is just my thought and I'm the spokesperson for myself. I define racism as is when a person thinks that they are superior to any other human being or person on the planet because of a particular reason. It might be your race, it might be your gender, it might be your ideology, it might be your belief, it might be who you love, who you don't love, all that. But you believe that you are superior because of who you are and every other individual and human being is inferior to you. Now, within racism, what I think is important, at least what I define is the following. Because that's such a big word, no one would want to call themselves or be called a racist or possibly not even be asked if they're a racist. I want people to think about two types of racism. One is individual racism and the other is systematic racism. So we have racism where you think that somebody, you believe that a person that you are superior to somebody, right? That's a system based on power, based on economics. And under that you have individual racism and systematic racism. Let's talk about that briefly. Do you know any one of your friends and your friends or your family and your family? Don't answer me, just think about it. Do you know any one of your friends or family that says, oh, you know what? I don't like this person, I don't like that person? I have a problem with Americans. I have a problem with blacks. I have a problem with Israelis. I have a problem with Muslims. I have a problem with gays. They're individual racists. They believe. I have a problem with Arabs and Asians and Latinos. Do you know anybody in your family that says that, that believes that they are superior? That is individual racism that is separate from systematic racism. How do we define systematic or how does teacher will define systematic racism? The way I define systematic racism is is that a group of people now have the ability to take what they individually believe and institutionalize it in all different walks forms of life within one's culture. For example, I will use the United States. Systematic racism has occurred in the United States for hundreds and hundreds of years. Perhaps people don't know about it, or they might be introduced to it, or they might even know about it, but they cannot take a look in the mirror because they haven't either wanted to or dealt with individual Racism and privilege. But systematic racism has occurred for over 400 years in the United States. Point number two, one has an opportunity when discussing racism systematically to ask themselves the question is the United States of America the only country that experiences racism? Is it in your country? Is it in your culture? Only you know that. But what I like to do is I like to be objective and based on my experience. I've been in. I'll use William Land. I've been in William Land and they are systematic racism has existed perhaps in my country. In William Land, there was something called redlining or people that had that were black or brown or were not in the major religious organization or religious affiliation if they believed in that, that were discriminated against. Redlining example exists, existed and exists in still certain parts of America. America comes from a history of systematic racism. And with that being said, I need to say one thing and then we will ask the question or I'll pause and see if we have any questions with respect to racism. Because I believe that teacher Haydar asked the question is there or could there be systematic racism within the ELT industry? Well, here's something that we might want to think about. If the ELT industry is a microcosm of the world and we believe that systematic racism occurs in different countries, am I naive to think. Have I never thought that if it exists in the greater society as a whole, is the ELT separate from the world? Did it not? It's like we are part of the global human community. So if the way I process information is, is that if racism exists in Williamland and I happen to be a teacher in Williamland, then I could be an individual racist and there might be systematic racism in the ELT industry. For me to answer your question is teacher Hadar is that I believe based on personal experiences and the experiences that I've heard of others and I will give examples that systematic racism exists within the ELT industry because we are not separate from the greater world as a whole. With respect to my comments in terms of has racism personally affected me, I will use a brief story because I'd rather share the experiences of others because I think it's more important. I have been the recipient of racism, whether it was because of a preconceived notion or opinion and solely from the color of my skin. I could relate to the fact of when I was in the United States of America and I was going to a party to my cousins, I was stopped for a particular reason because I met a profound file and being at the fact the Time that I worked for the prosecutor's office, I didn't meet the profile. So yes, I have, individually and within the el, within the ESL industry, what I was told by an individual who's a human being was like, well, we like you and you're American, but you're the N word, so we don't want you as a teacher. So I have experienced that, but that's a reality, or that's my reality. It doesn't make it right, but that's a reality. More importantly, what I think is important is to hear the stories or share some of the stories with maybe direct or indirect racism that I believe occurs within the ELT industry. When I hear fellow colleagues that are brothers and sisters that have the qualifications and yet they are not native and they don't get the job because they're native or they don't get the job because they don't have a native English speaking accent, that for me is racism. There are people that are on the call that are within the industry that know there are certain parts of the world that have what is considered the type of English. Whereas if you do not look a certain way, come from a particular country, have a particular gender and a shade of complexion, that is not my shade, that they do not want you. And those are stories that possibly we know within the industry, but people can relate to that. When I hear from a, when I hear ATW follower that says, who's a qualified teacher, who happens to be a woman, who happens to be a woman of color, of Latino descent, and I need to preface by saying that everyone is of color. But when I hear her tell a story where she was literally told, if you were a liked her, I would give you the job that might be an example of systematic racism. So with respect to racism, I need something to be very clear. We've discussed privilege where it's a benefit, right or entitlement. Everyone has it, but everyone does not have the same privilege that I have. We've discussed bias, we've discussed racism individually and institutional. And two, I need to say this is my own sense of integrity because I don't like to be hypocritical in myself. Within my years of existence on planet Earth, I have recognized that I am a prejudice and I have done and I continue to recognize that I have to pray about that daily. I'm talking about myself. I don't consider myself an individual racist and I don't consider myself an institutional racist. But I will admit based on my experience, I have been prejudiced and I have to prey on that daily. That when I have a preconceived notion and opinion of a group of people, that I have to change that. So I need to be honest with that.

Yeah, I think this is such a good point because it really shows that if we want to change, change. Systematic racism that exists in every single country, every culture. I mean, it's something that like people that's, that's human nature to categorize themselves or to, to create different statuses. Right?

Yes.

And I, I can share my story. The experience of my parents, for example, when they moved into Israel, because my dad is from Iraq and my mom is from Libya. So I will share that in a sec, just to show you that it's really, really everywhere. But systematic racism ultimately is the result of individual racism. So the way to overcome it and start changing it is basically two things. One, to acknowledge our privilege and two, to recognize those prejudices.

Right.

That. And there is nothing wrong. I mean, there is something wrong, but there is. It, it's natural. We all experience it. I definitely relate to that, that every now and then I have like these ideas that I've heard as a child, you know, about a certain group of people. So it's okay, like, it's natural that it comes up. The question is, what are you going to do about it? Because if you continue with the system and the fact that like, you know, usually people who have privilege, benefit. Benefit from the system and if we take it back to the English learning industry, I really want to ask you, all the people watching this, if you think that, wait, what are they talking about? I don't see color. Right. Like, this is something that I only learn with people who are good teachers. Then I'm going to dare and ask, look at the powerful teachers in the YouTube learning, in like English learning industry, and especially teachers who are native speakers. And I want you to ask yourself, if you see diversity, if you see various different voices, if you see people of color, if you see black teachers, if you see people who are not. Well, we're talking about native speakers in particular, but how much of them are non native speakers? I mean, I'm a non native speaker and I definitely experience challenges in this industry being a non native speaker and being a person. I've never, because I'm an. I'm like, I'm an entrepreneur and I do. I never really had someone to approve or disapprove me because I wasn't. I never had to apply for a job and have people not, you know, accept me or Say something about that. Because I was, I was always like, I always had my own business. But I have, I have experienced negative.

Comments.

People cursing me, even native speakers. Who does she think she is telling us how to pronounce this and that, like how to say it? This is ridiculous. People who think that their pronunciation is the only pronunciation out there. And because I was teaching American pronunciation, so I experienced a lot of entitlement and I didn't experience discrimination because it didn't affect my well being, but it was definitely, you know, prejudice. And I think that prejudice and prejudice. And then I definitely experienced that I had to work a little harder, which I don't, you know, I have no complaints about. My journey is my journey and I'm super proud of it.

Exactly. Let me say this, in my opinion, let's. Because I. So two quick points for me. I believe that the change. And we'll talk about this a little bit later, but I have to look at the mirror. I have to look at my own mirror, face my own demons, whatever like that. Because I'm not exclusive from the world, right? But I want to say something about systematic racism and it will tie into the ELT industry. That is an economic system people have to understand. And maybe these are issues that people haven't thought about before because these issues are difficult and tough and people have like, oh, I don't want. Right. But racism, systematic racism is an economic system. With respect to your comment about the ELT industry, if I use that same methodology, in my opinion, in my experience, also based on research. So it's not, it's research. Facts are facts. And also my experience, I would ask your learners and let's see what your learners say. Ask them the question when they think of a good teacher, ask them the characteristics, where are they from? What do they look like?

And I would add proper English. Like when you think of a good teacher, when you visualize that teacher, like English teacher, that's a really, really good question. And how do they sound like? Like what do they sound like?

You know, so what do they look like? Where are they from and how do they sound? So research has indicated in my particular opinion, most learners that I've spoken to that the standard of English is a person that comes from a native English speaking country that happens to be a male or female that happens to be of European descent or white and they speak proper English with native English speaking accent. And with that being said, and with that being said, I need from my brothers and sisters that are white because I have white in my Blood, I'm very proud to be black, but if I recognize I have European in me, Native American in me, and African American in me, the standard of English within that is perpetuated within the ELT industry is someone that is white, male or female, from a particular class, speaking a particular type of accent, that is native speaking accent, which I don't know what that means, because every language has an accent, but we'll talk about that later. That is the standard, and that is based on research. And to my white brothers and sisters that I have and I appreciate and that I love as a fellow human being, perhaps you have not thought about your privilege before, and that's fine. Perhaps you recognized your privilege and you didn't want to say anything about it, and that's fine. You be the judge. Or perhaps you've taken it so personally. And you, when I say that, that does not take away from your experience, from the work, from the sacrifices that. That you've had to do as it relates to your social media platforms or in your teaching journey as a whole. It's interesting that I can recognize the fact that I have privilege as a native English speaker, but yet when a person of color and everybody has color, but when an African American or when an African American or someone of Arab descent or someone of Latino descent or a biracial individual sits back and says, well, wait a minute, perhaps you've had a privilege because you're white. No, no, no. What are you talking about? If we're part. For me, if we're part of the human race, again, there's nothing the matter with privilege. It's just important to recognize that everybody doesn't have the same privilege as I do. And last point that I would say is the following. I could be wrong, but it's interesting from stories I've heard from learners that I've had, or I'm sure teacher Haydars had, where If I'm making the dissertation under systematic racism, because again, English came from. Right? I mean, yes, it's an absorption of different languages. They absorb the language, but it came from England. And England had a colonial system. Right. That does not exclude that other countries have not had it, because it has. But we're historically talking about English. Well, if that doesn't exist, learners, have you thought, have you done research and asked yourself the question? Have you ever thought about it? The videos that you see, the type of material that you see, who do they look like? Where are they from? What's their accent? I did a little research recently for my own growth and knowledge if systematic racism is not there, not in our industry. And let me preface by saying any content provider has the right, he or she, to do anything that they want to do. But if English is a global international language that we say, which is a fact, and there are more non native individuals that speak the language than native speaking individuals, that's a fact. Ask yourself the question, why are there so many videos out there saying, sound like a Native American accent, British accent, Canadian accent, reduce your accent. That's not right. That's not wrong. People can do what they want to, but perhaps it is perpetuating a system of oppression.

Amen to that. Amen to that. Now, let me add two more things to everything that you said here. Because first of all, it really does lead us into understanding who we are in the system as non native speakers. And I want to also challenge. So first of all, yes, I absolutely agree. We need to, you know, actually decolonize the way we have been learning English because we have to understand that English, proper English is something that someone at some point has invented. What do we like when even when people, let's say in the US and they have, they were brought up or they grew up in the south and they have a Southern accent and they experience bias as well, and sometimes discrimination because people have ideas about these people who have that type of accent or someone with a Brooklyn accent now they need to change their accent if they want to get a fair shot. Because, you know, this is, you know, we live in a racist society. So they have to achieve the standard American accent. Now the standard American accent or standard Brit received pronunciation British English and same thing. There is like a standard Australian. You're like upside down. Okay, that's it, you're back. Now was. Was a set of sounds that someone once upon a time has decided that that is sound standard American. And according to that, people followed because it's not spoken standard American. What is being taught as when you teach accent reduction or you know, you teach American pronunciation? Even when I teach it, I teach standard American. And again, it's not a regional dialect. It's not something real that people are born into. So my question is, who decided that that is the set of sound that that is what standard American is. Can we maybe infer from the person who had the power to say that standard American, maybe we can understand that this is where it starts to begin with. Because the person, let me tell you this was not someone from South Asia or someone who is African American. It was probably a white dude deciding that this set of sounds is standard American. I'll even go a little like one step before and say the vowel chart, right, Was created by a white man, a white man with a certain dialect. So the vowel chart that, you know, seems like that is supposed to be super, let's say objective, like a representation of all the sounds in the human mouth. My question is, had it been created by someone who had a different. Different accent, maybe we would have a different reality, different sounds, different standards these days. So we need to go back all the way to understand that everything that we're doing now is rooted in a system that served the people in power. And as English learners, it is important to understand that, because when you consume, when you want to improve your accent, when you want to, well, not accent, but, like, learn pronunciation and improve your clarity, because ultimately, that's what really, really matters, right? So when you work on improving your clarity, it's very important to listen to diverse voices because there isn't one correct English, Even though it seems that way in the English learning industry and in the entertainment industry and on the news, because you hear one certain sound, it is very important to understand that it's not a sheer representation or true representation of English in the world. And the reason why it's so destructive is because we compare ourselves to that sound, that native. That ideal of native English, and we are very. As non native speakers, we are far from that sound. And as the gap is bigger, it becomes impossible and super frustrating to try and bridge that gap. Because first of all, there is no need.

It's.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's challenging and it's hard, and it takes time and we lose track of what really matters, right? And what's really important, which is ultimately to communicate in a clear way, right? Like who? You know, I want to.

Okay, okay. So two quick points. For me, I distinguish between. For people that are part of the ATW family, what is important to me is as I define fluency for me, as more important than accent and underfluency is pronunciation accuracy, intonation, and stress. Now, because of the experience that I had growing up, for me was it was kind of like, hey, I never focused on my accent. I focused on proper pronunciation. But that was me growing up in America. So for me, hey, the way my methodology is like, hey, you know what? Let's focus on your pronunciation and clarity to be understood, while at the same time recognizing and realizing. And thank you to my brothers and sisters and colleagues that I've had conversations with that basically said hey, teacher will listen. The real deal is this. I believe in you. I believe what you say, that pronunciation is more important than accent. But I have learners, learners in their own respective countries, or I have lost job opportunities that, you know what, if I don't sound British like or Native like, I will not get the job. So I am not making a judgment either way. I understand that exists. And as one human being, individuals have to make a determination. Because some people are like, hey, you know what? My accent is part of my identity. That's who I am. I'm going to focus on my pronunciation, my intonation. And there are other people that say, listen, I need to sound. I need to sound like a native in order for me to pay my bills and pay my family. So I recognize that reality. At the end of the day, a learner needs to decide what he or she is comfortable with. But it goes to your point in terms of the aspect of how systematic, these systematic racism has. Has perpetuated the system. If it's, for example, when people say to me, like, I understand why they say, oh, I like your accent. I understand that. What I would prefer is, is that I would prefer if people say, hey, you know what, teacher will, I like your pronunciation. I like your clarity. Maybe the thing is, is that when people say that to me, I'm kind of like, well, wait a minute. What accent? When you say you, you want a Native American accent, what accent are you talking about? Because in the United States, you mentioned There are over 20 different regional accents, Southern New York. So what is it? So I think what happens is that learners make a decision about that, and at the end of the day, it is to recognize. Because here's the thing, Teacher Haydar, as your learners, I don't necessarily know if they recognize. That's the question I've asked myself. Have they recognized or have they thought about that? Wait a minute. Like when they're going on YouTube, have they even thought of. Or social media, have they thought of the question? It's like, well, wait a minute. Oh, I don't see somebody that looks like that. I don't see somebody that looks like me. Have the learners. And then if you could, I'll be quiet. Is one of the things you were talking about is privilege. I'm not asking. I don't know how you define yourself, but what are your thoughts on white privilege? Because I have a thought, but I'd love to hear, because I do think that's another layer. We all have privilege, but what are your thoughts on white privilege?

I'VE been actually researching it for a little bit now, and I was trying to understand where I fit in understanding my culture as well. And. And I think that white privilege is. First of all, I'm going to talk about the fact that a lot of people who have the privilege, first of all, they don't understand that their starting point and the starting point of people of color, in particular black people in America, for example, that have been enslaved 400 years ago that had an impact on the community or the life that they live right now. And when people expect you to be a fair player. And this is why I like commenting on. I don't see color, right? Like, we're all, you know, why, why does it matter? When you say why does it matter? Then obviously you have a privilege because you don't know why it matters. Because it matters for the people who suffer from it. Because when for, let's say, decades and hundreds of years, your family and your ancestors was not able to. Were not able to accumulate wealth and education, right? And you weren't able to live in. You couldn't leave certain areas. And that has an impact of your. Everything that you're entitled to, like what you deserve or who you are, or it has an effect on the choices that people make and whether to go to school or go to or just work or pursue work. So it's when you don't see that and you don't understand that that's a privilege. And that's the problem. And it's also important to understand that racism can be very, very subtle. So racism. A lot of people say, I'm not a racist because I don't go. And you know, I have a black friend, right? Like the token black friend. Yeah. So. So they don't, like, they don't see it and they don't. And also they say they think that it only doing bad things for, for people of color or black people, right? And being a part of the system and not acknowledging it and not pulling up the people who need that extra because they don't have the same. It's kind of like it's, it's, it's like you have different chairs, right? And you sit. Let's say you and I had to. We're sitting right now speaking only I, let's say, would have. My chair would be like, you know, this short. And that's just a fact, you know, and we would be speaking. Obviously there is like. And you would be having that high chair right now. It's just I was given this chair and there's nothing I can do about. It doesn't say anything bad about me. I just have this chair. Right. And you have a higher chair. How does it affect the experience of the people watching? Right. How does this experience affect your experience? We have to acknowledge that this is something that happens. And you, as someone that sees me all the way down here, your job is to say, okay, let me just. Either we need to be the same height, right. So it's your job to say, okay, I'll just kind of like squeeze myself down so we're at the same height or pull me up because otherwise it's really. A lot of people say, okay, it's their fight, right? Like they need to fight for their rights and they need to, it's their thing. Like let them fight for their rights. Yeah, I believe in that as well. And I'm saying that because I want to bring it back to the ELT industry because it is the job of the learners to consume different voices, right? To listen to different voices. But it's also the job of the industry and the people in power to understand that we suffer from lack of diversity and that doesn't serve the learners whatsoever. So as a community, and there is a discussion around YouTube English teachers about that and I love it and I think it's so important about how to make, how to change it. Because yes, it serves some people, but a lot of people, they want to see that change and they recognize that there is a problem. So I think that it's also our job as a community of teachers to change that because ultimately it affects how we teach, who we teach and the self esteem of the people that we teach.

Do you, Because I don't know this, so I'm asking, do you have white privilege? Like if people think of you, do you think or have you ever thought about you might be the recipient of white privilege just by how you look and they might not know where you're from. So I'm not, I don't know. I'm asking like, do you have it or they don't. I don't know. I don't know.

This is an excellent question because I've been, I've been dealing with that and asking that myself. So first of all, I recognize privilege. I recognize privilege in Israel and I definitely recognize white privilege for sure. However, I also am like, I'm, I'm, my dad is from Iraq, my mom was born in Libya. They moved to Israel when they were really young and there was systematic racism as well in Israel because like we're talking about like 50, 60, 70 years ago. Because there are the Ashkenazi Jews.

Yes, yes.

Jews from European descent coming from Europe, light skin. Right. And they're the Middle Eastern African Jews.

Right.

And. And when my dad was brought to Israel when. When he was three years old from Baghdad, and he had, like, they had a luxury house there. They had, you know, that was privilege. And they had to run away because of everything, the political circumstances, and they were moved into. They. They were called. I don't know the name of it in English for my Israeli viewers, Ma', Abara, which was basically. Do you know it? Okay, so it was like an area.

I'm sorry, Very quickly. When I was in America, I used to live next to maybe like two miles or two kilometers from a rabbinical Jew. And so my next door neighbor was Jewish, so. Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm sorry. Continue. Sorry, sorry.

I love that. I didn't know that. You know, I need to search for the name of English. I just, like, spat all over my face myself. Anyway, so they were brought into Israel and put in tents in a very, very, like, very. Everything was packed in a very small area. Did not have access to fresh water, did not have access to, you know, commute. They were isolated. Definitely. Like, my dad had to walk to school for like an hour every single day. Right. That, you know, and at the same time, people lived in Tel Aviv, in cities, you know, people from European descent that they. They arrived to Israel and they were given, you know, they were given houses, they were given kibbutzes, which is like, you know, social. Yeah, social. Communal settlement.

Right.

And settlement on the sense of, you know, Israeli, Palestinian, you know, you recognize.

Your white privilege, even though you might not identify yourself as white. So I give you a lot of credit because there are a lot of people that I knew, for no fault of their own, that would never say that, and I'm not asking you to find yourself, but there are. For example, I have a very good friend, and not because he's white. I have a very good friend. He's white. He had this. He's like, you know what? I never even recognized my privilege. So I give you credit for the fact as a human being that happens to be living the experience that you are. You recognize that. Because in my experience is that most whites either recognize it and don't want to say anything because at the end of the day, power. If we look at the ELT industry as an economic system, and that economic system is based on white, male, female, native things of that nature. It doesn't mean those people. It doesn't mean those people are not bad or whatever. I don't know those people. I could only be responsible for myself. But they benefit from that system. So that in itself, for you to say that, I think other people might need to hear that, because. I'm sorry, go ahead.

But it's very true, because even though I'm considered to be, you know, to have prejudice against, I still can say, okay, my white privilege is I'm Jewish in Israel, and I'm not, because Arab Israelis suffer from racism and discrimination. So I can say that people who moved from Ethiopia who are. Who have black skin, obviously, they suffer from racism and discrimination a lot more than I do. So, of course, you know, even though I'm not Ashkenazi Jew, I'm still, you know, in a position of power. So that's. That's what we said.

That's the oppression. That's the oppression that makes us human again. It goes back to, hey, there's nothing to matter. You know, there's nothing to matter with privilege as long as you recognize that everybody doesn't have the same privilege and isms occur across the line. Which is a beautiful segue because I want to address this, and I think it ties into your comments about white privilege, whatever like that. Earlier, you were referencing the Black Lives Matter movement. Let me just say this briefly. I'm not. I'm my own spokesperson if people want more information. I have some information. I'm dropping a video tomorrow on it on my YouTube channel. So hopefully it will shed a different experience or something of that nature. I would just say it very quickly, like this, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, let's just say for a moment that someone that you know, I want to tell a story. Let's just say, for example, like, someone that, you know that is very dear to you, your wife, your husband, your boyfriend, your girlfriend, you love them dearly. And that person, the person that you love, comes to you in pain, and they say, do you love me? So let's say I'm teacher Hadar's husband. For a moment, I'm in pain. I go to my wife, Heydar, and I say, teacher Heydar, Heydar, do you love me? And she responds to me, I love everyone. Her statement is truthful. But at the moment, when I'm in pain and I'm hurt, her statement, I go to her in pain and I say, hey, do you love me? And she comes back and says, I love everyone. Though her statement is truthful, at the moment it's hurtful and cruel. Another one, let's just say, for example, that perfect example, my mother died, right? And I go to Haydar, teacher Haydar, and I say, my mother died. I'm visibly upset, I'm in pain. And I go to Haydar and I say, haydar, teacher Haydar, my mother died, and she comes to me and says, everyone's parents die. Now, her statement is quite truthful, but at the moment, it's cruel or hurtful. Why am I telling you that story? I want you to imagine that for a moment when I say, black lives matter and I'm in pain, or somebody that identifies themselves in pain comes and say they're in pain, they come and say, black lives matter. And you respond, all lives matter. Though your statement is truthful, at the moment, it's cruel and hurtful. Now, I am the spokesperson. For me, when I say black lives matter, that does not take away the hurt, pain, oppression, suffering of any other human being based on race, based on class, based on gender, based on orientation, based on religious persecution, whatever. That does not take away the oppression of another human being. So for me, when I hear people respectfully in the industry that say, all lives matter, though your statement is truthful, at the moment, it might be hurtful. Any content provider has the right to do what he or she wants to do. I'm standing in my sense of truth for a moment. There are some people that I heard in the industry whose names will be not named that have said that, oh, I wish these black matter lives would go away. I wish this issue would just go away so I can go back to my life and they have that right to think that or feel that. To my brothers and sisters in the industry that have said this is a political issue, I respect what you think because you're another human being and you have a right to do whatever you want to. But it's interesting that the pain or the hurt of another human being that happens to be of African descent or Arab descent or Latino descent, the pain of another human being for some is political and not human. It's interesting to me that there are people that are not black, and again, nothing to my white brothers and sisters, because I consider them that. That have reached out to me. And there are some that I said yes, and there are others that I've said no. I will reach out to anybody, black, white, green, purple, because I don't care about your religion, I don't care about your color. I care that you're a human being, and I Look at your intent. Let me use teacher Haydar for a moment to make it imagine. Imagine for one moment if I am. I've displayed a characteristic with Haydar. She identifies as being Jewish. And I've said negative issues about Jews in the past and done derogatory things and posted terrible stuff and then deposted it. Or people know that I'm a cloud. I know that I'm a closeted bigot or an individual racist. And then Black Lives Matter happens, or black Jewish lives matter because there are black Jews. And then all of a sudden, I want to reach out, I want to listen, I want to do a tour. Maybe Haydar or Teacher Haydar, she has a choice of saying yes. She has the choice of saying no. But because of that bigotry, because of that systematic racism that might be, or she might say no. I will work with anybody because at the end of the day, I'm a human being that happens to live a human experience. And I'm not touting myself on a horn. If you go to my YouTube channel or Instagram channel, I have slang language. I have the receipt that I work with anybody that's human being, but understand my brothers and sisters that happen to be white, that if you reach out to any person of color, that what is important, at least for me, is your intent. There's a difference on hanging on a bandwagon saying black lives Matter. And I don't know what anyone's intent is, that is between them, themselves and their creator. But there's a difference between if a person is generally sincere because it goes to your question teacher about how. Because I don't want to talk. I'm sick of talking about problems. I want to talk about solutions. There's a difference. If anybody wants to learn about an experience different from their own, there's a difference. If you want to learn about the African American or black teacher's experience or an Arab teacher's experience, or a Latino different experience, if your intent is in the right place, then more power to you. But understand, if people will not work with you because there is no track record, or they're scared of you or apprehensive of you because they might think they don't know where you stand because you haven't had any previous point, what I believe the change comes from, for me or for any other teacher that wants to work with somebody else, there is a difference. If there are these issues of oppression or there are these issues like, okay, you've never had, let's say, for example, and I'm using teacher Haydar as an example. But this ain't the case. This is not the case. Let's say teacher Haydar is it. You know, she's had a moment. She's like, wow, right? And she's sincere. And she asked me to do a live or she asked me to go on this forum and this is a real life talk. Real, real truth. I did it. Why? Because she had a track record. Something in her life before this recognized that she is in the human race. So when she called me and said, hey, I want to do this, I was more comfortable because she established a track record she had on people that were diverse. She had them on her Instagram, she had them on her YouTube. She was talking about these issues before. That's different than imagine if teacher Hadar didn't have any of that. And then she comes to me and says, I want to talk about Black Lives Matter. I want to talk about diversity. For those content providers that want to sincerely change, that have numbers, whatever that means. Because unfortunately we're driven in a world that have numbers. That is not to diminish anybody that has not the numbers, whatever, but visible people. Like if you ask your learners, who do they think of when they think about English, whatever like that. If those learners or if those content providers are sincere with their actions, talk about their own experience, if they happen to be white, dare yourself to ask yourself the question. If you want to, you don't have to. Do you have privilege? Do you want to talk about it? You might lose followers. You might not. That is an individual decision. And I'm not telling anybody what to do. But for me, those, my brothers and sisters, my allies, if you want to be an ally, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself, does your content reflect what you were trying to do? Does it do it in the past and now? Yes or no. And we only have the moment in time we have right now. You do. There's a difference between doing a listening tour and a difference between having honest conversations with yourself. And if you're down for Black Lives Matter or any other matters, perhaps have people donate, do the history. So that's number two and the last for me as a system, the ELT system, if we make the assumption that it is a systematic that is part of systematic racism, the greatest challenge, number three is the biggest one for me, and that is the students must be the change. If they think and they deserve that, they are even worthy of it. Some of our learners, some of our people listening right now might not have even thought of that some of our learners might have been discriminated against, either racially, ethnically, religiously, accidentally. That's a word accent. They might have been discriminated against, told that they were less than, but they don't feel that they have a voice. It's time to tell your story. It's time for the learners that if they want diversity within the ESL industry, that they must reflect or have the opportunity to reflect the change. Is there value in listening to a content provider that is sitting back, bullying you, discrediting who you are? The change will come when you take the money out of their pocket. Somebody can be an individual racist, an individual bigot, an individual sexist. They don't like nobody. That's fine. That's their individual. But the change will come when you, the students, demand it and hold them to account. And I'm a little optimistic. I'm an optimist realist. I'm hoping that that change will come from the younger generation. Because if you look in the world, people that historically are not working together or come together, they said, you know what? Something is broken. And I don't care your race, I don't care your ethnicity, I don't care your gender, I don't care your religion if you have one. I don't care if you like. Your battle is my battle because we're human. So I'm an optimist realist. But the learners must be the change because a lot of times they haven't even thought about it, and that in itself is a privilege.

I'm like virtually hugging you right now. Thank you so much. And I believe this is just one of many future discussions that will going to gonna have because I think that I would love to hear more about what you have to say about so many different aspects of language learning. So thank you. Thank you so much for this powerful interview.

Thank. Sa.