519. Rediscovering your identity in English: Interview with my student, Valentina

Do you feel like yourself in English, or do you feel like you only bring a limited version of yourself when you speak in English? Or maybe sometimes you feel confident and expressive, and in other situations you feel timid and reserved. Today we are going to talk about that. We are going to talk about identity and limitation when it comes to your voice and when it comes to English. And I'm going to have that conversation with my student Valentina. Valentina has gone through a remarkable journey herself herself in English, from being a less confident speaker to a brave, courageous speaker who tries out different things and recognizes the situations where she feels different even though she's the same person. Valentina is going to share from her experience, and we're going to dive into a deep conversation about what it means to be a speaker of English as a second language. I loved every minute of our conversation, and I hope you will love it too. Let's listen. Hi, Valentina. How are you?

Hello, Hadar. It's so good to see you. I'm doing great. Thank you. It's so incredible to be here with you.

It's incredible to be here with you and to finally have that conversation that we've been meaning to have about what it means to be a speaker of English as a second language or living between two languages. And you are the perfect partner to have that conversation with. So Valentina, thank you so much for joining. I love you very much. For those of you who don't know Valentina, she's a big, big part of our community, but I've known Valentina for 7 years since 2019, is it?

Yes, more or less, like 25 months actually. It'll be 27.

And, uh, and, uh, you have brought so much light and creativity and joy and and challenging ideas into the work that we do. And this is a good opportunity for me to tell you how much I love you and I appreciate you, and I'm so happy that you're here. And let's start by you just introducing yourself.

Of course.

For those who don't know you, and then we'll talk about, we'll start with a conversation.

Of course, it will be a pleasure. So first of all, hey there, I'm Valentina. I'm originally Italian, but I've been living abroad for the past 8 years now. And so by trade, I'm a designer working across product design, graphic design, and creative consulting. But for me, design, it's more than a job. Let's say it's a way of seeing and looking at things and an attitude, uh, towards the world. And so design thinking has always impacted my, way of living. And, it has shaped quite slowly and quietly, mostly all of the choices of my life and, specifically, uh, how I relate to things and to learning and to language, of course. And so that specific impact was pretty much on the surface of everything that I've been doing over here in my journey with you. I also love to say that I'm a curious seeker at heart. And so I love exploring. I love experimenting. I love connecting the dots, asking a lot of questions along the way, especially when something doesn't make sense quite fully yet. And that's probably why I think that curiosity led me to you and brings me here today in this conversation, you know.

I'm so thankful for your curiosity. And, uh, you used the phrase design thinking. How would you explain it to someone that never came across this, this phrase?

Well, actually, design thinking, as I said, it's a way of seeing things, and I would sum it up Uh, like doing things with intention. Mm-hmm. And so every one of us use design on their own, you know, days. It's not just like a title or like— You don't have to be a designer to, you know, it's not like a fancy label in this sense. What, what I mean, it's broader. It's like having this attitude of being really aware of what you do. Why you do it, and how to keep going, to keep doing it in order to go where you wanna go. And so this is more or less, of course, I hope that, um, all of those others that talk about design thinking in a, you know, academic fields are not now offended by my simplification, but this is how I see it, you know?

So, and I think this is something that people can kind of like take away something from this, and this is exactly why it's important to simplify these concepts. And I, I'm, I love what you said because we are so used to doing things automatically or how other people have been doing it, or just like the way we know them to be, you know, and especially with learning a second language, I think this is something that is very common. How you learned it in school turns into how you should learn it when you're an adult, how you've always been speaking it. It should be how you will be speaking it. And I think that what you're saying, living your life with intention and thinking with intention and doing things with intention is what can make a change in, you know, what was and what will be. And that I love that you said that because I think I see that in the work that you do, especially with your English learning journey. So we will, we will go into that very soon.

I think because learning is not linear, you know, it's like it goes ups and downs and you have to know that you have just to start with that idea, not to be like sub sequential, you know, this is what I do now and then it's going to happen this and that. I mean, you don't know. Yeah. And sometimes some days are like better and you feel like, okay, I get it. And other days are like, oh my God, I mess it up, you know?

And sometimes it could be longer than one day, right? One, sometimes you'll, you'll be stuck in a rut for two months after you felt like, oh my God, I had a breakthrough.

Yes, absolutely. And that's why fundamentally you test, you observe and you adjust, you know, on the go. And over time you just create something that fits you. In the way you want. And that's probably the key part of how I see my English learning journey, uh, over here. I think that there, there are no right or wrong ways. There is your way and that's what counts, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. So, which is a big part of the things that we talked about that ultimately each person is responsible for their journey and for understanding what works for them and what doesn't work for them. And there isn't like this one size one size fits all when it comes to learning, and it's very important to know that. And to go back to what you said, to, for people to feel normal if they've made progress and all of a sudden they feel crappy about their English or whatever language they're learning. It's okay. We normalize it because learning is not linear. How has your curiosity impacted specifically your English learning experience?

Well, first of all, I have to say that curiosity brought me in places totally unexpected. So sometimes for good, sometimes for less good. But of course, all of those experiences were lessons that now I can carry with me along the way. And I think that The basic part of it is trying to understand what you love to do and what you are passionate about and use your curiosity to connect those things to maybe other things that you have to do or you should do or other things that could be a little bit less pleasant compared to what you love to do because of course we can stay here learning English or another language doing what you what we are passionate about, what, but we know that we learn English for many, many other things. And so we need to find our own strategies to use all of those things and just translate them in other fields.

And so my— Can you give me an example?

For example, I love to sing and whenever I sing by myself, I feel free. I feel that I can do whatever I want. You know, my English is flawless, but when I'm, you know, at work work, maybe sometimes I'm like feeling like sloppy and I maybe forget about the rhythm. And, you know, when I imagine in my mind, okay, but why when I sing a song, I feel so comfortable and now when I have to speak or to express myself, I feel that I can't do it. What, what changes over there? You know? And, and, and that's pretty interesting because it makes you realize how We work as humans. And so whenever we feel free and we loosen up a little bit, we function in a way. And whenever we want to manage ourselves and we want to control the situation, things, people, not to mention you can't control yourself, let alone, you know, having control on what other people do or say. I mean, that's too much. You know, you are requiring yourself to be something that you are not. Yeah. And so those are a lot of frictions, and I have been experiencing them for all my years in the journey, and of course, not only in the journey of learning English, but also in my life, you know?

And I think, I think it's like two things that I wanna point out. One is that yes, your second language or English behaves differently depending on the situation. If you are, and, and it's not that the English is the problem, it's the room that you're in. And, and it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. We just need to understand that, right? When you feel, when you're in a room with other people, when you feel evaluated, when, you know, the, the, there, things are at stake when you communicate versus when you do something that you love and you are in your creative zone, then clearly you'll have a lot more permission and confidence that would not show up in the other room. And like you said, the question is, how do we bring what we know that we have? It's an asset that we have being creative, being fun, light, expressive, confident. How can we bring more of that into, you know, like our other part or our other areas in our lives, taking into consideration that it may not always be the same. But that is something to remember. And the second thing is that learning, you know, you don't have to be a creative person to learn creatively, right? And I think that learning has to be fun. There has to be an element that brings joy to you, whether it's shadowing or singing or acting. Or speaking to someone about, you know, important things or whatever that looks like. Even if it's drilling grammar sentences, grammatical sentences, right? It doesn't matter as long as it brings you joy. And I think that the fact that you know how to find those things that make you happy is, is so important in giving it time and space in your journey.

Of course, it's not something that happens immediately in a snap. It's something that you discover. And that's why I said before, I'm a curious seeker. I just explore and I try. And you don't exactly know how is the best way to do that. But if you don't try anything, you're not gonna discover anything. So for example, when you were talking about how we want to bring ourselves in the space or in another room. In another language, it makes me think about how I see using English in such contexts, you know, because it's not only a communication challenge, but it's also like a identity gap challenge. In relation to what you were saying about bringing ourselves into different contexts, it's interesting because I started to realize how it's not about language. But it's also about presence. For example, uh, think about, um, working in English as a non-native speaker. Uh, it's not only a communication challenge, but it's also an identity gap challenge for me. Um, because on a practical level, you use everyday, uh, communication, but then you notice that something subtle happens. Um, it's not what you know, it's what happens in the moments that you want to express it. But it's because for us, there is always this kind of delay between what we think and what we are able to say. And in that gap, something happens. We tend to overthink. And so how do I sound? Whether my communication is coming across correctly or with the same intention that I have. All of those doubts, you know? Yeah. And those things surprisingly and softly changes our own experience of the communication, you know, our own way of living it. Because we know we don't follow our thoughts, we don't follow and flow with them. We're just trying to manage it, to control where we are.

Like, and we're so busy with what's going on here and we're not really, you know, saying what is needed in the moment. And I think there are a few, like, okay, so let's organize it in the sense of what is the real challenge? And I think what you're describing is really the essence of being a non-native speaker or what I call living between two languages. And you talked about the identity, right? Like, yeah, hey, I'm like this fun, creative person, but that part is not coming through when I'm at work, for example, or in certain situations or around certain people, or even in a second language, right? For some people that could be, I am such a fun, funny, intelligent, smart person in my first language, but whenever I moved into English, I feel raw, I feel limited, I feel less intelligent, right? So that is kind of like, who I am is not showing up in a second language. So that is the first gap that we need to bridge. And then you also talked about, oh, like, here's what I want to say, Right? And like all the thoughts and not being able to say it for whatever reason, overthinking, or maybe the words, it's hard to retrieve the words. And for some people it could be because they don't have a lot of experience or the words are not available and they feel like, wait, I know how I need to say it, but the words don't come out. Right? That's like more of a language gap because it's not that they don't know it, it's just that it's not accessible to them. Right? And those two things, they really create this feeling as if you are kind of like locked or stuck or in some sort of a small box, smaller box than what you deserve simply because you switch to another language. Now, it can happen in your first language as well. I'm sure you can, you know, if you want to talk about that.

Yeah, I can relate to that, of course.

Yeah, because it really depends on the situation and the mindset and so many things. But I want you to talk to me a little bit about like, what is it like and what have you done to minimize that distance between who you are really and how you show up in certain situations or specifically in English? That is one thing. And, and of course the language gap as well.

Well, first of all, I started to let go. I mean, I started to let go, uh, my expectations. Of being able to bring exactly the version of myself that I wanted in different systems, because it, it wasn't really possible. It's still not all the time possible, but of course it's improving. And I want to trust that it's going to be better and better with time. But the first challenge that I had to go through was that. I mean, loosen up that idea that I was failing something because I couldn't do it. I couldn't succeed the exact way I had in mind of coming across. And so I realized that that was part of my fluency journey. I mean, if I can be better in being better in English, I can also be better in learning how to be better to be present. And so what I mean is that to me, being fluent started to feel like, okay, you just simple accept that you can't live up every single time to the reality that you have in your mind. So—

Oh, this is so good. Wait, wait, wait. Say it again. 'Cause I think it's not just about how you show up. I think it's about everything. You can't live up.

You can't live up every time to the idea that you have in your mind about you.

How things should be, about how you should be, about how fluent you should be. Yeah.

How it's supposed to be. And, you know, because the first question would be, okay, but for whom? And then who decide, you know? And also we are not over there trying to, saying that that is the right way of doing it or to be in a way or in another way. It's just that sometimes we are stuck in that idea that we have to, to live up for it.

Yeah.

That is probably the best way to say that.

And you know how else I like to think about it? I like to think about it as if there are several Hadars and they're all great. And there is the Hadar that shows up in front of her students and the Hadar who is a mother and a partner and the Hadar who is the CEO of a company that runs a big team, right? And I don't show up the same way. And sometimes I do beat myself up and I'm like, why can't I be a little bit more like this here and a little bit more like that? And I've come to realize that this is the thing, like we always have, like it's never enough. It's never, you know, like, why aren't you like that? Why aren't you kinder? Why aren't you more assertive? Why don't you stand your ground? And it's kind of like, okay, but the most important thing is first of all to accept all the parts in you that show up the way they show up. And there is a reason for why you show up in a more preserved way or reserved way, right? And there is a reason why you show up differently in other scenarios. So this is how I like to think about it with, 'cause the moment you start adding judgment, why am I not the way I should be in my brain? This is where everything collapses, right? Because judgment leads to shame, leads to avoidance, leads to fear, right? Like, or just like a negative emotion around a language, you know, or anything else that we're talking about. So yeah, so, so just bring a, a lot of love to all the parts in you and let go of the expectations, which is my favorite part about what you said. Because I think it's, it's key for everything and it's not always easy, isn't it?

Not at all. Not at all. It's probably one of the worst challenges that we have to go through, but it's also satisfying when you're like, okay, I can deal with it, you know? Yeah. I can do it.

Yeah. And I think there is something lighter about it when you let go of the expectations, apart from it making it okay for you to be who you are. It's also, it doesn't create that stress. And then there is more freedom, there is more fluency when, when you don't have that critic, right? Sitting here and telling you what you're doing and not doing. What have you done? Okay, so this is about the identity gap and like not being able to be yourself. Um, what about the language gap? What are the things that you felt that have helped you to take the knowledge that you have around English? Because I'm sure that there was a time where you knew a lot more English than you could use and you felt more limited just because the language was not available. So walk me through the things that you've done to minimize that distance.

If I think about when I started and if I think about now, The process, it's quite evolved in time and probably it, it was heavier at the beginning because I didn't know really the strategies that I could use or like if those were really effective. And now I'm like more like, okay, let's do, let's simplify it because otherwise I'm not gonna keep up with everything that I want. And so, for example, I started to observe whatever I was experiencing, and I started to think, okay, how do others use the language, and how can I navigate those spaces with my capability? Because sometimes we think that in communication we are, you know, in charge of everything, you know, like, okay, my own level of English needs to keep everything up and there is nobody on the other side. But whenever I felt like, like that language gap, of course, very often, um, I just hold myself back a little bit, but in a present way, like in an intentional way. And I started to observe their own way to communicate. And I started just to, you know, be over there in a probably softer way, let's say, because I, of course, I couldn't really speak up as I wanted, but still, just the fact that I was over there active listening and trying to grasp everything that I needed in order to keep the conversation going, That was probably the first strategy that helped me to bridge that gap. And so I'm not saying that it's the right way to, to do it or the only way, but that was the most instinctive way that I had, especially when it comes to other cultures and when it comes to other things that are connected to the language, but they are not quite in the language, you know, also The capability of read the room sometimes can be really, really helpful when it comes to use a language that is not yours by birth. And so it's like, okay, I need more layers. I need more, a little bit more time to do that. It's not immediate.

Yeah. So, and I, and I love that, like shifting to a list into a listener mode, like just allowing the moment to Just be without, again, expectations about how it should be. And there's a lot that comes up from it. It doesn't even have to be a language gap. I think this is such a great piece of advice for anyone who's not sure about what to say right now, or maybe they don't have a response or they don't have an opinion and they feel like they need to say something, right? Like sometimes just maybe just listening is the solution and then either something will come up or not, but I think it's not something that people tend to do when they get stressed because they need to speak, you know? So I think this is a really good piece of advice.

Yeah, indeed. Sometimes when we, uh, get stressed, we tend to speak, you know, more and fast, and we don't really know how to deal with it. And so I just, let's say like that, just to sum up, I just tried to use all of my, let's say, limiting behaviors in my own favor.

You know?

Perfect. You know when they say the problem is the solution? Well, I started to say, okay, let's see it. I mean, let's discover what does it mean doing that. And so I started to say, okay, how do I feel Whenever I feel way too exposed, I freeze. Okay. So let's use the freezing as a strategy. What does it mean? Of course, I'm not saying that we need to freeze on purpose, but that idea of, okay, stop a little bit. Let's pause a little bit and let's just breathe and let it be. What is going to happen there?

Yeah.

So this is more or less another strategy that I, that I tried and I've been trying in time because of course, Those are like with me.

Tell me a little bit, because what you shared reminded me of the work that you do inside of our community. So tell me a bit about the classes, the conversation groups that you host, where you dive deeper into this experience. And just for context, we have a membership called Beyond where it really is about connecting with people and building consistent habits of learning and practicing English regularly, but also diving deep into conversations around identity and our journeys. And so I'd love for you to tell a little bit about the work that you do and why you think it's so important and what you have discovered having these sessions.

Of course, that's a really nice question because I am fond of it, you know, um, all of the things that I've been doing in the community so far are things that I care about and, uh, thinking about how I translated my own journey and my own experience in my language practice and how I showed it in the community. All of the things that I've been doing in the community are quietly important to me. I mean, I care about them a lot, not only because they are like guidelines for me in order to make me do a self-assessment, like, okay, Valentina, you are doing the work, you know, don't be that hard with yourself. But also because I want to show, I want to give people the opportunity to see that we can share such things. We can share our, uh, experience in learning because learning is not a performance, but it's an experience and we should experience it together.

Why do you think it's important? Why do you think people need to hear about other people's experiences?

Because I think that sometimes if learning is a self-experience, you feel lonely. You feel that you are unique in your own struggles. And that's, and that can work against you. I mean, it's something that you can, you know, level and you can rise up the pressure, the judgment, the sense of shame, the embarrassment, all of those negative feelings that you can feel because you are supposed not to be there, but further are, you know, amplified.

And you think it's just you. You think that it's just you are the mess up. You are the one that like, there's something wrong with you. Everyone's succeeding and I'm the only one who can't get it. And why is it so hard? And why can't I stay consistent? And everyone's so fluent. And, and, and then when you realize that these are the thoughts of almost everyone else, it, like you said, you realize that you're not alone. I think it's so incredibly important.

Yeah. I love it. And it turns, you know, isolation into recognition and it softens up the judgment through your understanding. Like, okay, I understand that now I'm thinking badly about myself. My inner dialogue is not that helpful. So I have just to, you know, put some distance over there. And when you do that, there is something softly You know, rising up. And I love to, to say that it's permission, you know? And so we need to give ourselves permission to do that process. And also we can give permission to others by showing them, you know, by leading by example, by showing them, okay, I can do it. I've been doing it. Why don't you try? There are so many ways, you know, we can impact the other lives and the beauty of the community and beyond as a membership. I mean, It's the space that we can hold for others and for us because it's a reciprocal.

And to take up space, right? A lot of people, they don't want to talk about themselves. They don't want to keep people waiting. They don't want to make mistakes and have— yeah, so it's like to take up space and to remember that your voice is important, knowing that someone will hold space for you because you are doing it for them. And I think we don't have enough of that in our real lives. And this is why learning communities like Beyond, I think it's one of a kind, but like really this is what makes the journey less lonely and a lot more effective. 'Cause once you let go of that, okay, burden, it's a lot more fun to learn, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. And so when I realized that what we are going through, the struggles, all of the challenges are quite the same because even though, of course, people is quite fast in pointing out differences, like, okay, where are you from? Or what's your accent? Or whatever. We look so alike on an emotional, like, you know, ground. And so if you think about all of those emotional experiences that we go through in our learning journey, we understand how important it is to be aware of them. And how important is to work, and specifically since you asked me, on our emotional intelligence, because that's exactly the ability of perceiving, understanding, and managing our emotions in our own favor. And since, you know, learning a language is also relating and it's, it's a relational process. And so we relate to people, we need to relate with, um, to ourselves first. That's right. Understand. Understand. Understand how we work, but also understand, okay, in, in this way, how can I relate with the others? How can we stay connected among all of our own, these differences? Because, you know, sometimes those differences are scary because you are like, okay, those are things that are not point of connection. And so I feel that I'm not quite at ease. But at the same time, if you understand or if you start to experience that especially those differences can help you, they can enrich you on many other layers, you're like, okay, give me more, you know, I wanna have more. I wanna know how you think, how them think. And that's the beauty. And that's why we, in the community, we experience learning together. And that's why I care about this project that it's a series of, um, conversation groups that is called Philosopher's Glove, uh, from feeling.

Perfect name.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, it's specifically connecting to that, uh, connected to that idea of being really curious and open to observe, to reflect, and to nurture our emotional intelligence. Because I think that in this sense, it's another fundamental part of our fluency. Yeah. Those are all factors, you know? Yeah. And the fun fact is that I started with the Shyness Party because, again, I was going through my own journey, you know, personal growth, and I realized, okay, I'm a shy person. What can I do? That was so, I mean, till the point I, I, um, didn't need to use English, it wasn't a point because I was like, okay, I'm just like that. But when you start feeling that that shyness is limiting and you need to do something with it. It's not a matter of finding ways to fix it or to change it or not accepting, but especially it's about accepting it and find ways to just discover what is over there to learn about it.

Yeah. What's the— And in a way to celebrate it, right? Shyness party. No one would ever connect, okay, being shy is something that I should be ashamed of. Or like something to hide. No, no, no, let's celebrate it. You know, like all the shy people, let's gather together and talk about it. And I think there is something very therapeutic about your own journey, guiding others through this, not, you know, like allowing, creating the space for people to have the same reflections that you've had. And I think this is the beautiful part about kind of like going through the journey yourself and then showing the light for people who are just a little earlier in the journey than you. And I think, you know, this conversation is also probably, hopefully helping a lot of people to have a little bit of clarity or awareness around how they feel and how important it is to make it a part of your learning experience. It is not isolated. It is not just the outcome. Of your English level. It is an integral part of your learning journey and managing your thoughts and do, and just developing awareness and talking about it is essential for fluency. It's not nice to have, it's not woo woo, it's not spiritual, it's not for women. It's something that you have to go through and address and make it a part of your journey. If you want to really, really be confident and fluent because everything feeds into each other.

Feeds into other lines.

Yeah, it's intertwined. Um, Valentina, first of all, I wanna say a huge thank you for all the things that you do in the community and for sharing, uh, your knowledge and experience here with everyone watching this. What is one thing that you would one piece of advice that you would give people who have, who have never done any type of mindset work or thought work? What is one thing that you would want to tell them?

That's another interesting question. I've never thought about, I mean, of course, the mindset work for me was fundamental. So I would suggest to do that to all the people. I always do that actually.

It's already a part, like I think design thinking is already mindset work, right? Like it's processing what is happening now and processing how you think about it. And is there a different way? And I think this is exactly it.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that the most important thing to consider is how fluency, it's not just you know, mastering a language. It has so many other factors and you always talk about that. Whenever we think, okay, do I need to speak like that or how should I express myself in order to convey a good message or a good idea that I have, we have really the power to understand that the way we communicate that exact idea, it's not only the way we manage or the way we master the language, but it's also how we live it. And I think that how we live it is strictly connected to how we are able to live it. And so to understand that we are—

how we are and who we are.

How we are. And so sometimes you're like, okay, what's my level? What should I need to do? Or what is the best phrasal verb in that circumstance? And you're like, okay, but How do you feel when you say that? I mean, do you come across, you know, quite convinced? What's confidence there? You know, it's not just, you know, learning a lot of words and use them like you are an expert. It's just like, okay, I can say something simple, but being really precise, really confident and clear. And so I will say, guys, please, take into consideration that being fluent, it's more than being better at English or being able to master English as a pro. It's something nuanced. And so we should consider that.

Yeah, for sure. Valentina, thank you so, so much for your time and for your wisdom. And I hope that people will get to know you more. So if you guys join Beyond, then you will get to know Valentina and our community. But other than that, um, I just want to say a huge thank you for being a friend and a student and an observer, uh, and the best conversation partner. So thank you. Thank you so much.

Uh, thank you, Hadar, for having me and for gave me this fantastic opportunity. And so thank you again. And, uh, I hope to see you soon, of course, in person.

Of course. And you're well.