#106 - Are funnels ”toxic marketing”?

Is it really that you think this tool is a gross tool no matter how you use it, or is it actually that it wouldn't really matter which tool you're using here, you'd feel a bit icky because you feel bad about selling.

This is the Doing It Online podcast with your Host, serial entrepreneur, 6 and 7 figure funnel strategist and super nerd Kate McKibben, where every week we're here talking nerdy and sharing the things that actually work to help you do what you do online. But better, easier, and with a ton more profit too. Are you ready? Let's do it.

Hello. Hello lovelies. It is Kate here from HelloFunnels Co and welcome to episode number 106 of the Doing It Online podcast. And today I wanted to chat about something slightly different. I wanted to join in on the conversation that I'm seeing happening more and more in online spaces. And I really wanted to talk about toxic marketing. Now I want to just put a big old caveat on this episode and say that my intention for this episode is to share my thoughts, to share how I feel about certain elements of online marketing and marketing automation, and to really just offer you some points to ponder in your own marketing efforts. And I am not coming up here and getting on my soapbox, which I do love to do about certain topics. I'm really just sharing what I am seeing, how I am feeling and what we have found works for us and feels good for us. And I'm going to explain why that's really important in a minute too. So, like I said, there is a lot of people getting mad about toxic marketing on the Internet right now. And I can see why. It definitely no one ever wants to be taking advantage, to be making someone who may already have a life that is more challenging than others and be making it harder for them. Nobody, nobody ever wants that. And if they do that, that's another conversation, right? We were talking about this inside our program, Ecourse Empire, and I love that it was a space where people felt okay to be talking about this because people are like, I want to be. I love my funnels. My funnels work really well. People often email me and say that they love this email or they love this workshop. I have clients who, who I have a lot of clients who work with me because they love our funnels. They love the freedom that having this funnel has given them to their business, how it's allowed them to spend more of their time not doing repetitive tasks manually, but by automating those tasks, being able to actually show up in a bigger, better way for their clients to be able to be more of service, to have more impact on their clients lives. Like they're like, how can all of that be a bad thing just because it has a countdown timer on it. So that's what I really want to talk about today for anyone who's having a little bit of an internal struggle and a wrestle. And the thing is, you know, things change over time. The landscape of marketing, sales online evolves and as always we, we do our best until we know better and then when we know better we, we do better. But I also don't think just because someone yelled at you and screamed that's toxic marketing that you have to go and shut your whole business down. I think if it's concerning you, then you should definitely take a step back and have a look at how you're doing things and how you're running things and again, make sure you can find a way that feels in line with your values and feels in line with what's important to you and that feels good for you and for your clients. Let's peel off that juicy Apple, shall we? And, and let's, and let's have a chat. So like I said at the moment there's a lot of people and I say not even a lot of people. There are just some very noisy people, people doing a lot of yelling that about online automation in regards to sales, particularly things with countdown timers and things with any type of sales or marketing or whatever. There is always such a huge spectrum of, of how people are using certain tools and these are all just tools. Countdown timers is a tool, Facebook ads is a tool, Webinars is a tool and they can be used in ways that is really great and that creates a good experience and that is great for the business owner, is great for the consumer and then they can be used in ways which are not so positive. And everyone, it's up to you as the business owner where you decide to sit on that spectrum. We've kind of come up internally with what feels like a good I suppose guiding stick around where the questions and that you should be asking yourself and the, the conversations you need to have with your team and yourself to find where on that spectrum you are going to be able to land happily and feel really good about it as well. So our very first, and these are guidelines or rules I guess for non toxic marketing automation as far as we see them. But again as I said, feel free to take all of these with a grain of salt. So Number one is to never do anything that feels gross to you. This has always and will always be one of the most important things we think when it comes to choosing which of those marketing tools are you going to take out of that tool belt, in which combination, how are you going to use them? How heavily are you going to bang on them? Like finding that, Finding something that has to feel good to you. Now, I want to put again a big caveat on here, which is around and which, because we often have to deal with something else, which when you come across or you go to do something in your own business and you're like, oh, I feel like that might feel gross. Before you say, oh, no, I shouldn't do it, I need you to just quickly check in with yourself and say, is that, that you actually think that this is gross? In which case definitely don't do it. Or is this actually your subconscious and your feelings around selling in general? Like, is it really that you think this tool is a gross tool no matter how you use it, or is it actually that it wouldn't really matter which tool you're using Here, you'd feel a bit icky because you feel bad about selling, you feel bad about asking for fair compensation for the value that you bring. And it can be a tricky one to separate. Usually.

One of the easier ways to do it is to go and have a think about and go, well, when was the last time I saw this marketing tool being used somewhere and how did that make me feel? Now again, we can always end it like that. Doesn't completely remove the scared of scary, scared of sales thing that sits at the back of people's heads. Because sometimes we see other people selling successfully and we're like, yuck, how dare they? Like we have. And that is our fear projecting onto them. Because you'd be too scared to do it can be a tricky one to feel your way through this. Okay, but as I said, if it is genuinely yo, like I just hate it when people do that, then don't do it, do not do it. Me personally, like this. And this is something I think people are always a bit surprised with. But there are actually ways that you right now, everyone listening to this likes being sold to. We all like being sold to in different ways, but just everybody is a bit different. There's probably definitely ways we all hate being sold to as well. Okay? But when it comes to deciding, I said which of those tools you're going to take out of that tool belt and you're going to use to market and Sell your offers, your services, your business. It comes down to thinking about what I said, what feels good to you? What feels good to you? Usually it's what have you experienced before that you enjoyed that didn't feel gross. That's number one, never do anything that feels gross to you and just to like again, one thing that I found over the years is like I said, like there's always everyone likes being sold to in different ways, right? Quite often, particularly if you're a personal brand and you're out there and you're the one, it's your face, it's you talking, it's you writing content, quite often you'll find that you are attracting people who have a lot of similarities to you. So. So there's probably a good likelihood that they're going to enjoy and not enjoy the different marketing tools that are similar to the ones that you enjoy and not enjoy. That's another reason why I think it's if it feels gross to you, do not do it because it's probably gonna be feeling gross to the people on your list of people that you're attracting. The second guideline, the second rule for non toxic marketing automation is you have to know your offer is great. Like this probably should be rule number one, but I kind of felt like I needed to explain the other stuff first for the rest of the rules to make sense. But you can just forget about all of the other ones. If your offer isn't actually great, if it doesn't feel like a fair exchange, if you can't honestly hand in your heart, say that when someone gives you money for whatever it is, whether it could be coaching, it could be an online program, it could be your physical thing. If you can't say that you are so thrilled that they have decided to invest in themselves in this because of how much it is going to help them, how much is going to impact their life. If you can't truly say that, if your program isn't great yet, then it doesn't matter what you're doing to sell it, it's going to feel sleazy because you don't believe in the outcome, you don't believe you're truly helping people and therefore you're going to feel like you're tricking them. It doesn't matter if you're sitting at a card table on the side of the sidewalk or if you are sending emails via an automation at this point, it really doesn't matter. Your offer isn't great if people aren't getting the value from the they it's not that fair exchange. They give you money, you give them back something that feels just as great to them, then it doesn't matter how you sell. It doesn't matter if you use a countdown timer or don't use a countdown timer. It doesn't matter if you knock on their door. It doesn't matter if they called you up and told you that they really wanted to buy it, you would still feel shitty. So sort that out first. And again, let's say with each of these, there almost needs to be the. Don't let the evil subconscious voices be the things that are ruling you here. This isn't about perfectionism. This isn't about you going, oh, I. My website's not beautiful enough or I can't. My photo. I haven't got any nice photos of me because I put on weight in the pandemic and I don't want people to see me. So I'm just using these $1 stock shots and it makes. I feel like it looks terrible. It's not about that. It's about, it's not even about the kind of video you use to record your program or how pretty your worksheets are. Like, none of that really matters. I recently invested in a very expensive program and their stuff is not pretty, but it's got so much value. I don't care. This is about does is there true. Like, are you truly able to help people? Is the information you've created, the way you've put it together, is it truly something that's of benefit, that is of equal or more value to the financial value of which they hand over for it? Until you got those lined up, you're never going to be able to sell, not in a way that feels good. Which is. Takes us back to number one, never do anything that feels gross to you. Rule number three, make sure your deadlines are real, not fake. So in the conversation that we were having inside our ecosystempire community, I was, I found it fascinating, right? Like there's so many insights into the way people feel about selling and marketing and their own offers and other people's were coming up and it was. I was just taking scribbling frantic notes because just the psychology behind it was so interesting. But there was a couple of people who were going, oh, but it's fake. Deadlines are fake. And that just real and really was interesting to me because actually they are no more fake. And there's, you know, we talk about the practical side of this, like how you actually do that. So they're not Fake. But an online deadline is no more fake than an even real life deadline. I think what these people were thinking of when they think of like sales promotions, right? Because all businesses do sales promotions all the time. Like, that's how they make money. There's very few businesses in the world apart from like maybe Harvard and like a prestigious school. Like, they're not out there going, oh, hey, it's halfway through the year, you get half price. Like, they don't do that. But most other businesses, services throughout the year, they have different promotions, they have different offers, okay? And those offers have a deadline, but the deadline's a date in the calendar. If you think about Black Friday sale, people don't go get mad and go, hey, that's fake on Tuesday. It's going to be more expensive. Again, like, how dare you? No one says that it. Or if like two for one taco Tuesday, people don't come in on a Thursday and go, but I want it two for one today. No, it's not Tuesday, but I want it on Thursday. They wouldn't do that. They. If they come in on the Tuesday, they go, great, this is awesome. And if they miss out on the Tuesday, they don't on a Thursday, they still get tacos. And so nobody's sad about that. I think the difference when it comes to an online offer, an online. And I'm using like the example of say someone's gotten onto your email list, right? And so for the first 72 hours that they've jumped onto your email list, maybe they get a 20% off discount code off something like just as a really, really simple example. And people are like, well, yeah, no, but that's, but that's not real. That's not Tuesday that it ends. It's not the July that it ends because the end of tax time, like, it's, it's three days from the date they signed up. But how is that any more or any less real? And I'm going to give you some more examples about how this actually literally happens in real life as well. Think about McDonald's or any of the fast food restaurants. If you are standing there at the counter and you make your order and they say, hey, for an extra $2, would you like another set of fries or another burger? The second you walk away from that transaction, your chance to get that burger for $2 is gone. The trigger for the offer was you standing there and maybe ordering a certain thing or over a certain amount or the fact that you ordered on that day at all. And the timer, the End of that offer is you paying and walking away. That offer has now reset. You come back tomorrow, you get the offer again tomorrow, but you can't come back and say, I want my $2 burger now. You still have to do the thing that triggers the offer. Another example is my local hairdresser who I love. They have a special offer where if you rebook in for your next appointment before you leave, the next time you come in, you get a free blowout. And for me, I'm terrible at remembering too. Like my, the grades are starting to come through and I'm really, really useless at rebooking appointments. This is actually like I kind of stand and go, oh, I don't, I don't really want to know if I commit to that yet, but I want to get a free blowout. So okay, I'm going to do it. And I don't, I'm not mad about it. Like, if I really didn't know if I was going to be available in six weeks time, I could always call them up later again, they're a great hairdresser. I would go to them even without the free blowout. But it is that little extra incentive. The, as I said, the trigger for that offer is the fact that I in there and I just had a haircut and the deadline for that offer is when I walk out the door. And that's fine, I don't get mad about it. But when you translate a very similar situation into online, people can get cross. It's not real, it's fake. I'm like, no, it's not fake. It's just the trigger is maybe not the type of trigger perhaps you're used to, or maybe you have seen and had bad experiences with ones which are fake. And so you've got a bad taste in your mouth and you assume that they're all fake. But we always, and this is why I said this is why our guideline or our rule number three is make sure your deadlines are real, not fake. This is why we use programs like Deadline Funnel, things like that, which actually mean that you can say, okay, so this is an offer for our new subscribers. It's a new subscriber offer. The trigger of this offer is the fact you subscribed. Thank you so much. It's only for this amount of time. When that amount of time's up, this offer goes away. And so you use a tool like Deadline Funnel and there's some other ones out there so that when that timer ends, that 72 hours or whatever it is based on when they signed up, they had their trigger. Now they're going to have the end their, their, their deadline that it actually will redirect that offer. And it is a real offer. And you can set it within the settings. You can be as strict or as lean or lenient as you like on that offer. See what feels good for you. Come back to rule number one, only do what feels good. So can you see how it doesn't have to be quote, unquote, toxic? I don't see these people going and yelling at the poor minimum wage people working at McDonald's because they gave they want their $2 burger. Now, like, it's just like, unfortunately there are some people out there who are doing things in not the most genuine way, not the most authentic way. And it does put a negative spin on other stuff. But you kind of have to just go, look, I understand that there are people out there who are behaving badly. I choose not to. I choose to do what feels good for me, what feels in line with my values and what just makes my life so much easier as a small business owner with very limited time on my hands and allows you to focus on what's more important, which is your actual clients and actually delivering a great experience to them. But yes, you just can do it in a way that, like I said, that feels good and that isn't fake. Last rule or guideline is to keep an eye on your refund requests and cancellation requests because that is a really good barometer regardless of what your refund policy is. And again, choosing a refund policy, Putting a refund policy into place that feels good for you is really important. Make sure you've done that in the first place. You don't want it to feel like unsafe for you, but you also don't want to feel like unsafe for your clients. And we actually have a whole episode dedicated to should you or shouldn't you have refund policy and things to consider? Go find the episode if you are interested. But just keeping an eye on those rates and as long as they are below they like the industry standard quote unquote is you want it to be 5% or under. We aim for 2% or under. And as long as you're there, then yes, you may occasionally get a person who gets horrendously offended about something that you've done. But just remember that usually that is a reflection of them and they've been triggered by something which is probably built on multiple exposures to people behaving badly and not necessarily your specific thing that you just did. And if you're only getting them one in a hundred times, if that, then I wouldn't go and tear your business apart and turn off something that's really useful and is working well for you. And that is a real asset to you and to your clients based on one person who's decided to show up and to just project a whole bunch of stuff going on internally for them onto you. Okay, if you're getting lots of these, then absolutely. And I still. It's never a bad. Like, if you do have someone who does kind of get quite offended and does get quite mad about something, like, it's still always good to stop and have that internal check in and go, do I. Are we still. Are we good? Have we done anything that's not in line with our values? Have we done anything that doesn't feel good to me? Check things over. Make sure that the landscape hasn't moved and you haven't been able to move with it. And if you're okay, then be okay. And be okay knowing that. Yep, sometimes people are just going to get mad at you. Like, I once had a woman who, like, just lost it at my staff because we wouldn't give her a refund. And the reason she wanted a refund was because her mum had died six months earlier and she bought the program, like three years ago and she'd gone through the program, she completed the program, and then like over two years later, her mum died and she found a very. It was a very challenging time for her. And she mean expensive time from Sounds of It as well. Then she was going around and asking everyone for refunds. I'm like, that does not give you. Qualify you for a refund. I'm sorry. And she was saying the most horrendous things to my staff on our Facebook page. All this stuff, it was not pleasant at all. But you have to stop and go, are we good here? Have we checked in? Is this in line with our values? Have we done? Do we feel good about how we are showing up here? Okay, well, then the rest of it is. I call it the Muppet Tax. It's always gonna be a couple of people who. It's like a tax of doing business. Those are your four things, guys. Number one, never do anything that feels gross to you. Number two, know that your offer is great, that it's a fair exchange. Number three, make sure your deadlines are real and not fake. Number four, keep an eye on your refund requests and cancels. And if they are below and preferably well below the industry standard, then I think you're good. And as long as you, you don't feel like you're not like there's nothing internally pinging for you that you want to go and have a look at something then. Which refers back to number one. Anyway, now final point, guys, I wanted to just say before I jumped off this episode, and that is really, and it's in defense of countdown timers, is that I personally.

Love a countdown timer. Not necessarily for the reason I think most people think that they are useful. I love a countdown timer because I live in Australia. I live in a time zone that nobody knows how to translate to. And also because I'm like, it breaks my brain anytime we have to say, oh okay, it's 5pm in Australia and it's 1am for this country and it's here, but it's yesterday for you guys and then having to write all that out into an email. So I would so much prefer that we can just say this offer ends in this time for our time zone. Not sure what that is for you. Look at the countdown timer below. Like how much easier is that? And for me as well when I go and land on someone's page and they are in a different country to me and it says it expires on Tuesday but their Tuesday is my Monday or my Wednesday or like just show me the countdown timer, I can go, oh, okay, that's in a day and a half. Great. I know that now. Easy. I've got the information I need. Perfect. You made my life easier. That's why I love countdown timers. And we'll continue to use them. And like I said, you got to do what feels right and good for you. But hopefully I've given you a bit of food for thought today. Anyway, guys, I hope you've loved this episode. If you have any thoughts, please make sure you share them with us over on Instagram. Ellofunnels. Please share this with anyone you think would get even a nugget of of value out of it. And we'll see you again next week with another super nerdy podcast episode. Until then, guys, keep doing what you do and we'll see you online. Bye.

Thanks so much for listening to the Doing It Online podcast. If you love this episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your online course sales to the next level with your own six or seven figure funnel, let Kate show you exactly how today@stealmyfunnel.com Sam.