$2 Million Biller Strategies with Asher Rudolph

There are things that are unforeseen. You might have done everything well and you have a client who just shuts its doors or gets acquired. You know, not to be negative, but you've got to think, right, what happens if this goes? Do I have other relationships? You know, where can I go? And just ensuring that no matter what happens, you're never going to be starting from scratch.

Asher Rudolph, he's worked in recruitment for over a decade, and for the last 8 of those, he's been building his career over in the States with Oscar. He joined the business in 2016 to kickstart their contract division. Since 2019, he's billed consistently over $1 million in GP, and in the last 2 years combined, he's billed $4.5 million GP. Here's how he did it.

Because I always have this argument with my wife, I'm someone, I just get up and I just do it. I think people make it harder than it needs to be, in my opinion. I think people overcomplicate what we do.

This is what you're going to learn in this week's episode. How to bring on large enterprise clients.

So I think for me, I always found it easier to go up and then work my way down rather than just go down and work my way up.

How to use internal sponsors to open up huge client opportunities.

I think it's very difficult to get in any company of a large size without some type of internal recommendation, referral, introduction.

The importance of committing to building relationships for the long term.

I think people, what they do is they follow the money where it is at the time, and it's all present. They're not looking at the long term, the future.

Why doing the basics extremely well every single day will result in huge success.

You need to know who your target audience is very early on, and you need direction straight away. The way you get that is doing the basics extremely well and being thorough, and so, so much more.

Let's get into this week's episode. Asha, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.

So you're joining me from Tampa?

I'm in Tampa right now. Yep, Tampa, Florida, baby.

Love it. So we're gonna go through— I mean, you've been in the game for over a decade, uh, but more specifically, over the last 8 years you've been on this journey with Oscar where you joined the business, um, which was a perm-heavy business, uh, which I'm sure is like fair to say. And you've been on this contract journey. So this is another— if any of you listening, uh, that's in contract recruitment, this is going to be, I feel, another masterclass on how you can become world-class. Hopefully. So a bit of context for people then. So let me know if any of this is wrong, but am I right? I was just looking at my notes when we prepared for this. So was when you joined Oscar, was that on the US journey? Was you already, already there?

No, that was, that was when I moved to the US, was with Oscar from the get-go, from So from day one, moving to Houston, Texas, I started with Oscar at the same time.

And then how long have you— and you've now been around 3 years in Tampa, Florida?

Yeah, 3 years in Tampa, 3 years next month. And I spent 5 years in Houston, Texas as well. So all in all, been in the US full time about 8 years.

Yeah. And then just some like highlights here again, feel free to correct me, but just looking at my notes here. So I think when you joined, there's about 6 people in 2016, is that on the contract side or just in general?

No, the whole company, the whole company in US.

And now there's 70, circa 70, I'm sure that fluctuates.

Yeah.

So, I think what's really cool about this story is that when you joined, it was like it perm, basically. And then you've gone on this journey to really build out the contract side of the business. And then now just looking at my notes, how many are in the contract team now?

I think across the company we probably have about 15, 20 people that are focusing on it. I think some of those are dual desk. I would say probably about 10, maybe 15 now actually are. Now they're seeing the benefits of contract, are probably focusing on contract 100%.

So, and then final bit, final bit of context. Would you mind just sharing, Asher, like your world? I'm sure there's been like moments where you've done more of some things than others, but what's like your like bread and butter in terms of your niche, your skill set? Like what does that look like? Just to give everyone context on that front.

Sure. So my core is networking. So network infrastructure, digital transformation. So anything of the core, the 5 core networking, which is route, switch, wireless, data center security, and unified comms and voice. And then obviously the different branches within that and anything that kind of connects itself as well. So there's a lot of overlapping with infrastructure. There's overlapping with areas of virtualization. And now you're seeing the last kind of 5, 6 years more of a digital transformation. So I do a lot of the cloud integrated networking stuff, network virtualization, things like that on a large scale is definitely my core. And then as networking overlaps with aspects of cybersecurity as well. So that's definitely my niche, I would say networking and kind of the security world.

Appreciate that. And then just a bit of the highlight reel, just again, let me know if any of this is wrong, but obviously the way that you described it is, you know, the first couple of years you was really building, you know, your patch. And then the numbers I've got down here, I've got a pound sign in front of them, but it might be dollars. But, you know, for the first, I think the first full year I've got down here, $385K, Dollars GP.

That's dollars. Yeah.

Dollars.

Yeah.

Okay. So it's all dollars. Nice. Okay, cool. And then let's just go into more recent years. But basically every year you told me, every year since the fourth year, you've done over a million GP dollars from 2019 until now. Yeah.

2019 until now, at least one or over that. Yeah.

And then, yeah, the last two years you've done 4.5 with last year you did 2.23 million GP.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, cool.

The last 2 years, I did over 2 million.

So let's just get straight into it, Asher, basically. So I think what I found really interesting when we prepared for this, which is where I want us to start, is the way that you basically described like average performance to becoming like really, really great performance. I think the way that you described this to me, and this sort of made sense in terms of like the solutions that you sell, the types of accounts you've ended up having in terms of producing those numbers is I think you put here like average contractors, you might be doing 2, 3 placements with a client, but where you can really level up is like the program elements. So like be involved in the entire thing. And this is really interesting because I was just saying to you that I interviewed someone last week who has always been involved in that contract-to-hire space, but has been getting some opportunities to do those hiring projects, those entire programs. Which are obviously a lot larger in deal size, or they're a lot larger in terms of like the overall contracts that they're gonna get out in certain accounts. And now he's going into this role where, like a bit like your job title, he's just a contract solutions director. So now he's basically responsible for bringing in predominantly all the new business, and with a big focus on winning large-scale hiring projects. So I guess my first thing to you, Ashley, is I feel like this is coming up more and more when I speak to contract recruiters, or This is often when I speak to recruitment companies that have been doing contract and want to level up their game. So I guess the first thing I want to start with you is, if you are this person I just described to you who has just been promoted to this client solutions director, and they've maybe had along the way some wins where they were involved in an entire program or a big hiring project, but it wasn't consistent, and now that's their focus. Talk me through, like, how would you be thinking about those first 90 days? You're in that role. You're now, you know, very reliant on to be in the room or bringing in these big programs, these big hiring projects. Like, how would you approach being in that seat and now that being your entire focus?

Sure. The number one thing I think that changes any contract recruiter going from being a transactional recruiter to a partner, right? And focusing on those large accounts and being able to kind of land and expand and do multiple placements with customers. Is identifying your market as early as possible. And I'm not just talking about technology niche, like I do networking, but what does that mean? What I want to identify is which companies do I have to work with in my market? Which are the companies I have to work with no matter what happens? I'm gonna work with these companies because they are the ones that are winning the largest projects. They are the ones that are working with these massive blue chip companies that me as a 50-person company are likely not gonna be able to get in with directly. but they're going to have to utilize outside partners to beef up their project teams. So identifying who are those companies, that is the number one thing. So market mapping, I think, is the best way to describe it. I think people mistake that sometimes. I'm in my niche, but being, you know, having a technology that you focus on isn't enough. Essentially, you need to know who your target audience is very early on, and you need direction straight away. The way you get that is doing the basics extremely well and being thorough. For me, when I came out here, all I was doing was speaking to contractors. That's what I want to speak to. Career contractors, people that have their own companies, people that are 100% committed to doing projects, to doing contracts, and seeing which companies they work with and identifying which companies come up time and time again. Because the companies that come up time and time again are the ones that I want to work with because they're the ones that consistently winning those projects that I want to be a part of. So for me, the most important, the 90 days is your market mapping and identifying, you know, ideally you want the list to be small, right? Because again, when it's too big, we're kind of throwing a dart in the dark type thing. For me, I think my list was 15, 20 companies across the US. That was my non-negotiable. I was going to get in with, and the target was at least to get in with at least 5, you know, maybe 2 of those would be massive accounts and 3 or 4 would be, you know, maybe midsize where they give me 10 or 15 placements a year. So it was critical for me to map out the market and identify which companies I was going to work with. And the way I did that honestly was doing the basics extremely well. I spoke to a ton of candidates, did my market research. I was in my, speaking to people just in my space and then finding out where people were interviewing, where they had worked with, which companies had they worked with before in the past? Was there companies that had hired them multiple times for projects and getting that information and then essentially going to those companies, doing the classic, right, selling in candidates, finding out what projects they're working on, selling in the right skills, reaching out to the right people, networking, just doing the basics. But I'm making sure I'm doing that with the audience I know are going to be wanting to buy or work with me because they're in that space 100%. So anyone I'm reaching out to is relevant people. But also when I know that this company is the company I need to work with to be successful. The motivation for me to get in there surpasses anything else because that is a non-negotiable for me to succeed. I have to work with this company. These companies are the only way for me to get a hold of these projects. For me to go ahead and get into these companies like these blue chips, like these Fortune 100 companies, is through these middlemen, these value-added resellers, these IT services companies that own the projects. So that was my non-negotiable. So the first 90 days is crucial for you doing that and identify who and what you're going after. I think once you get that and you understand, it's a lot more, it's a lot easier for you to go out there and attack it properly and do it intelligently as well. So I think main thing is people sometimes spread themselves too thin and they're going after anything and everything. So have a niche and then have a niche within the niche. That's the biggest thing as well, because with the VARS, the IT services, The culture is so important, right? I need to find a consultant that can manage a massive bank with 350,000 employees. I'm not going to find someone who's only done local school networks, right? So you need to understand what type of person is going to fly within these large projects. You know, have they done them before? Do they need to be resilient? They need to be, you know, contract heavy. They need to be rich in experience of dealing with difficult customers, difficult issues, putting out fires. So understanding that culture as well, you immerse yourself in that. When you're sending candidates into projects, you know they are going to be— they have the minerals to be able to keep up with it. You're not going to send someone that's never done contracting before into one of the largest banks in the country to go and work on a huge multimillion dollar remediation project, for example. So there's so many elements to it, but essentially that's what I would do and focus on. And that's where the game kind of clicked for me and changed for me was when I had that focus.

Yeah, it definitely makes it a lot easier when you've got that target list, right? Because then you can really focus your energy. I guess, actually, do you mind? I know this might be specific to your industry, but it still might be helpful for people. What were some of the like core elements that made you think or that you feel like are important to hear and understand that makes a client go on your list of like, I have to work with this company. So I guess what I'm asking, like, what, what is the makeup of those companies? Are you finding out from the contractors that they've worked with that business on a project like more than twice or 3 times? There might be more to it, but like, what, what, what have you found to be the makeup that go— that makes you go, these hire and use contractors consistently, they've got a track record of doing it? Like, if I'm going to get, you know, my contract book to a really solid place, I, I need to have one of these accounts because of what I've learned. What, what's the makeup? What are the things— what What's the important info?

Yeah, that's, that's, that's good to know. I think for me is obviously finding companies that, you know, are partners to much larger organizations and people with what I call critical infrastructure. So if you think of someone like a bank, a bank needs to ensure that their network, their infrastructure is consistently growing, evolving, and always working. You know, you can't have a bank have their network go down and then all of their customers across the country get affected, right? So companies like that that have essential infrastructure need ongoing projects. It's like never-ending, essentially, right? So if you can identify the companies that support those end clients, that's a big thing for me, is understanding which company. So if I go and reach out to, you know, one of the major banks here, you can find out who it was that was supplying the staff you know, to them who is the integration partner. So for me, it's about, right, who is the end customer? That's important because I know these end customers, if they're in the telecommunications industry, if they're in banking industry, financial, anything like that, broadcasting, the projects never end. You know, you have some companies like, all right, we're going to roll out a new software, bring a contractor in for 6 months. All right, thank you. On your way. These ones are, these are programs that are 3 to 5 years of consistent digital transformation. So for me, that's a big thing is finding out these companies, who is the end client, you know, and does this company, are they the exclusive integration partner of that end client? You can find that fairly easily. Honestly, a lot of contractors and candidates put it on their resumes, so they might put the end client and then a slash who their contracting company was. So it's an easy way to essentially identify and speaking to people as well. I would speak to contractors and ask for them, hey, you know, when you worked this, did you go through someone? You know, is there a company you'd recommend I reach out to? So for me, I get that information from them, but I would want to ensure that these companies are real technology companies as well. The companies that I'm partnering with, a lot of the time they have two branches to their company, is they have their own full-time employees, professional services or advanced services. Where these employees are hired by the company, they're on salary, they're on bonuses, they're 100% full-time, and they are dedicated to individual customers. And then from that, typically you breed this different arm to the business, which is specific project support. And a lot of the time the permanent staff are spread too thin with day-to-day support, operational support, business as usual support. They can't do the projects. And they can't assign those people to those projects. So what they do is they come to contractors. So I like working with companies that have a large base of actual permanent staff as well that I know are going to have to be able to beef up those teams with contractors. I try— there are companies I work with that what we call 100% consultancies who have a much smaller base of full-time staff. And mostly what they do is they're winning projects and then staffing them. I like working with companies that have a large base of full-time employees because typically that means the programs they're on or the customers they have are much on a much larger scale. And then I want to be working with partners, right? So Cisco, VMware, Arista, Juniper, you can, you can go on their website and see who are their top partners. And essentially what they would do is they would, they would feed work into those partners. So I'm wanting to go with the, you know, highly accredited partners directly from the source. So those are typically kind of what I would look for when I'm trying to find my, you know, my must-have clients that I want to support essentially.

Yeah. And I know we're going super technical here, so let me repeat some of the things back to you that hopefully will mean that people are following on here. But sorry, what? No, no, this is— I know for certain people this would be like really, really helpful, right? So I feel like The first thing that I got there is making sure that the end customer, like you said, so like the bank or these types of things, are companies that you know it isn't going to be like you said, like a short-term 3-6 month project. We need to like 1 or 2 people to roll out this particular software, for example. The end customer are likely going to be companies that, like you said, like they're always going to have ongoing projects. So firstly, is the end customer— does the end customer look like that? Does that make sense to have that thesis that they're always going to have things going, right? And I'm assuming then these end customers are typically like larger enterprise customers. And then I've heard this a lot when speaking to contract recruiters, like you said. So that's end customer. But then like, yeah, who, who are their partners? Who are the people that, you know, winning these projects? Because a lot of the time they, they may win projects but may not be fully responsible to— like they won't have all of the the staff for these projects on their payroll, they'll then leverage like an external partner for that. So then, like you said, like targeting the end customer, and then also you've got these partners and people that are involved in rolling out these projects or win responsibility for these— roll out these projects, um, that are likely going to need a consistent flow of contractors, reliable contractors that potentially you could supply to them. Is that— am I getting that right?

That's exactly, you bang it, yeah. You know what I mean?

Perfect.

Honestly.

Why don't we go into this then? Because this is one of my questions and I think this would be really interesting for people. So let's say we've got that, those 20 target customers, right? And a lot of them might fall into like the enterprise category. You've already mentioned like speaking to contractors a lot. So, but let me ask you this. Like, I think a lot of people are interested in like how you crack enterprise accounts essentially. Do you know what I mean? Talk us through your process of taking a dream enterprise client, one of these companies that you're like, this is non-negotiable. I have to, I have to, you know, this is one of the companies I have to work with. Like, talk us through your process of putting them on your list to landing your first meeting with them. Like, what does that look like? I know it might vary, but like, how does that approach look like?

Yeah, it's definitely changed, obviously, the way times have changed, right? When I first started recruitment, I could go in London and knock on a door, you know, and say, hey, you want to work with me? Now it's obviously changed. I will say my principles have never changed in terms of my outreach. I believe that people buy from people, and I've learned that referrals and recommendations are your best way to penetrate an account. So I would reach out to people, I would say fairly high up, classic cold calling. Emailing, but I'm doing so equipped with good information, right? I'm not just calling some random person. I'm making sure the people I'm calling are in my space. I'm making sure I know the areas that they focus on technology-wise, maybe some of the accounts they might be working on. So when I'm calling people, I'm making sure that I've done my due diligence on their area and what's important to them, right? That's the biggest thing for me. So when I'm going into these cold calls, these cold emails, I'm doing so with good information. And I'll go out to people that I would say are pretty high level. So I think for me, I always found it easier to go up, start up and then work my way down rather than just go down and work my way up. So I would go to VPs, CTOs, I will go to directors. I have a lot of success with going to salespeople directly as well. So I will—

How many people would you normally— sorry to butt in, but how many, like, let's say, yeah, let's say, yeah, I'm trying to get in with Barclays, like, How many, how many like, and it might not be a set number, but like you're talking about, they start from up to down. But how many names would you maybe like have against like this big enterprise client that you'd have? Yeah. How many contacts do you think?

Sure. I mean, I've done everything from 5 to 25, honestly, even 30 people. I'll typically split it by region. So there might be someone that looks after the Northeast. So I'll call, you know, call that person in the Northeast and they look, all they do is look after the Northeast. So if I'm reaching out to someone in the Southeast, they might not overlap. So me reaching out to either one is essentially who can I get in with first, right? Who can I have the conversation with first? I think if you put all your eggs in one basket, that's where people have an issue. So for me, I'm spreading my risk as much as I can. I don't think there's a number I could give you with exact data. I can tell you it's always multiple, you know, people. And I've been passed around 25, 30 different times before. But my biggest thing is I always try and keep it to direct contact with hiring managers first. I always go to direct decision makers, right? People that have the pain points, people that are in the weeds day to day. That was my biggest thing, is going to a VP of technical services, going to a VP of professional services, going to them first and having a candid conversation with them, understanding what's the business looking like for you guys? Where are you looking to grow? Where are your pain points? Where are you struggling? Understanding all of that first and then being introduced from them to HR, to recruitment, to procurement, right? And having them vouch for me and helping me push through the process much more easily when I've got a sponsor. That's typically how I do it. I won't go to procurement without a sponsor, without some sort of clout from the company. And I think people make the mistake sometimes that they go straight to procurement. But you understand procurement get hit up by 1,000 people probably every day. You're just another person to them. You need to have context, you need to have a backing. I think it's very difficult to get in any company of a large size without some type of internal recommendation, referral, introduction, even an email and copying in the VP you've been chatting with. You know, hey, Hishem told me you're the best person for me to speak to about this. I'd love to be compliant, blah, blah, blah. So for me, I always go that way, and that's been the best way for me. Obviously, there's trial and error. You're going to get some people tell you no. What I have found is that people that are very high up actually seem to be more receptive. I don't know why. I'm not sure what that is, but I think some people are maybe afraid. To reach out to someone that they would deem very senior and then they would go for, you know, lower level management perspective, you know, perhaps, which is fine. I'm just saying when you go to someone like a VP, a lot of the time they have dotted line managers, maybe 8 different managers reporting to them in 8 different regions, right? So then I can be introduced to 8 people in 8 regions and cover that from one introduction. I've now got 8 new contacts. So for me, imagine like a spider web. If I start from the top, eventually I work my way down. And I've got all these different contacts, all these different relationships that budded from one person at the top who simply said, hey, speak to Ashley about your business. So that's honestly how I did it. I don't think there's anything crazy about this out the box. I think I just do that very— I'm very thorough. I follow up. I try and find things that are specific to their profiles. Is there anything we can relate on? Any sports team, anything like that, right? Try and be try and make yourself jump out a little bit. When you're reaching out on email, be specific, be personalized. Don't send out an email to 1,000 people with the same email and hope someone clicks okay. You need to be specific with your approach. And if you're dealing with people at a very high level, then you need to be worth their time. So take the time to be worth their time, I think is the biggest thing for me. I will sometimes email with a bit of a pun. If the company has a name where I can make a pun, I'll email with the pun or make a reference to a sporting event if they're that team or something. So my approach is always specific, build really good rapport, good relationships, sell myself and what we can do and the solutions that we bring and why we're going to be a good partner and then have them introduce me to the right people, the day-to-day managers. And then from there, the conversation with those hiring managers is extremely easy because I've been introduced by their boss. They're not going to say no because their boss has vouched for me. So then I'm in and then once that's going on, I've got the need, I can go to procurement and become a partner through the proper channels because I've got the backing of a hiring manager who wants to work with me or wants to use the candidate that I have. So you have to have context, you have to have skin in the game, and you definitely have to have recommendations and referrals from networking within. Without those things, in my opinion, you're never going to be able to branch out. You're never going to grow an account. You might have one tiny area of a business, but the people that are lower level, in my opinion, are less receptive to, you know, putting their name out there for you or pushing you out just because they've got more on the line. The people at the top, for them, it's, you know, it is what it is, right? They have everything to gain and nothing really to lose if everything works out. So they're already at the top. So that's kind of what was my mindset behind it.

So a couple of things here that, that was really interesting how you broke that down. So the first thing I found, this, the first thing I just want to underline, and you can let me know what you think about this, but I found this, I'm finding this time and time again when I speak to high-performing contract recruiters, is that they are so disciplined with their information and they take that so seriously. This isn't something where it's like, yeah, I'm not, not very good at time management, I'm not very good at you know, keeping on top of my notes and following up. Like, high-performing recruiters view the information that they gather as absolutely non-negotiable when it comes to storing it, when it comes to listening, when it comes to, yeah, really utilizing that information. Because what you just said there at the beginning, which I've picked up on from people, is that when you take that seriously, the best people then really use that when they reach out to people, right? So, you're reaching out to Asha, who's the VP of whatever, and you're saying, Hey Asha, look, I've heard that you used a number of contractors between April till June last year in 2023 on this type of project for this reason. Look, I may be wrong here, my information, but, you know, what do I need to do for us to have a conversation to make sure that when you might run into that again or that project again, that I'm someone that, you know, you should be speaking to or whatever that sounds like. I might be wrong, but I feel like the information, that's when you can really showcase your credibility, right? So I don't know how you feel about that, but I just wanted to underline that because this is something I'm hearing time and time again and this is how you can use it to really stand out and show people that you know your stuff.

Yeah, I think, I think what you need to do and what I've done as I've matured in my career was, to be fair, from early on, I think I was always good at being personable. I think in contracting it's all about relationships. That's all it is. You need to be very good at building relationships. To get through the door, you need to show you're knowledgeable. So exactly what you mentioned. Hey, I understand you hired these people. I understand you had these projects. I know this technology is really difficult to find. We have a bunch of these guys, you know, ready to go. Do you have any more projects in the pipeline? Because these guys, you know, they're ready to go. I know you've hired them before, you know, so that that information, even if they're not, they know I've done my due diligence. They know I know what I'm talking about. And they're like, okay, this guy, clearly he's done his research and he's taken the time to find out about us. I'll give him the time of day because I've taken that time and not just, hey, are you hiring? Okay, bye. You know, it's very— the personal touch, a personal approach goes a long way. So doing your due diligence from a technical perspective, coming again with information. Hey, I know you guys are a top Cisco partner. I saw you got awarded, you know, Cisco Partner of the Year, or you guys were using this tool better than anyone else. Little things like that, it just goes a long way. And the other thing is being very meticulous with your notes after a conversation and all the things that you think might be small details, they're not small details. So I think I had one client and we were chatting and his kid just broke his leg. So it's a small thing, right? Just broke his leg. The budget was frozen. It was a very big prospect for me. I managed to get through to him. He's like, I'm really sorry, I can't chat. I've got to go. My son's broken his leg. I was like, okay. I wrote that down and we had another call. The first thing I said was, how's your son's leg?

How's he doing?

And then from there we spoke for about 45 minutes, I think, about personal stuff, kids, whatever it was. We just chatted. And then 5 minutes of that was business at the end. And then we partnered with each other. We've been doing business ever since. So me taking the time just to write that little note down and come back to the call with something personable, something personal, went a long way to him. Right. And obviously I've got kids, so I genuinely care. Hey, how is the son? You know, how are you doing? But I'm just saying, I think people miss, they gloss over that. If it's not to do with business, they're like, oh, that's not relevant. But it is. It's all relevant. People buy from people that they like. And contracting is all about relationships with people, doing business consistently, repeatedly with people that you like. All of my contractors, I've got a handful, maybe 30 to 50. That I've, what we call, recycled over the last 8 years that reach out to me proactively. I reach out to them with information because we like each other, we trust each other. That's all it comes down to. You have to do the same with your clients. So everything matters and information, the technical, the market is important, but the person is key. I think people sometimes they forget that business is personable and people want to work with people they like and that's it. That's a big ingredient for me, I think, throughout my career is making real relationships and, you know, and friendships essentially, you know.

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The Sourcewell Live List feature has enabled me to become a secret little stalker and to contact my ideal customer profile whilst they're at their desks. And especially for someone like me who works in biotech, where computer time, understandably for a lot of scientists, just isn't prevalent, this has been a huge help. And for example, a biotech vice president of HR who I have been politely pestering for what feels like my entire life finally picked up the phone to me because I cold-called her after she clicked on my email 4 times in a row, which Sourcewell kindly had let me know. To the point where she actually giggled during my cold call opener and responded with, are you in the office watching me? And despite that awkward encounter, we're now working on a retained project with them in Boston. And that wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for Sourcewell.

As you can see, Sourcewell is a great tool for driving better engagement, more meetings, and higher revenue. If you're looking for a competitive edge in 2024, then Sourcewell could be for you. You can book a demo with Sourcewell and mention the Recruitment Mentors podcast to enjoy an extra 50 phone and 50 email credits per user. And this exclusive offer for this community is going to save you circa £500 or more and is only going to be available until March 31st. So click the link in the show notes or you can go directly to sourcer.com/demo. The second bit that I just wanted you to touch on a bit, if it's okay, is you were going through it, but I just want to make sure that for people listening, they can maybe, you know, experiment with things here or try different things. But like you said, I really like when we're talking about enterprise accounts, like how important it is to get that internal sponsor. So I guess, you know, I feel like what underpins all of this, for example, what I feel underpins this being a successful strategy is that like if you do get a sponsor, if someone puts their neck on the line and introduces you and you get to the point of working with them, like you have to fucking deliver. You have to really show what you're about. So none of this is gonna work unless you actually deliver, you give them evidence of like, Asher is someone that we can trust. He said that he could do this for us, he did. So that underpins it. But I guess what I would like just to talk to us a bit more about, particularly if we're going at the senior end, what does this sound like in terms of like, how do we encourage these people to be a sponsor, I guess is what I'm asking. What does this sound like? Are you going, Are you really trying to make sure that they know that you're someone that has a track record or that they can trust as to why they're that, or you lead them with the information again, saying like, "Hey, you know, a few people told me that this is a project they have upcoming and this was an issue last time, so, you know, I'm someone that has done multiple of these types of projects." I don't know, like what are the typical things that you really try and, you know, discuss and communicate that makes them go, "You know, Asher, I'm happy to introduce you." There might not be one thing, but like what does that sound like?

What are the things that you try I think just demonstrating that I'm knowledgeable, right? I think that's the first thing you can do without adding context or actually being able to supply a candidate. All you can really do is prove that you know what you're talking about and be relatable. It's difficult to prove yourself without proving yourself in a way, right? Without, you know, oh, here's a project, here's a great candidate. Awesome. They worked out really well. Let me now introduce you to the rest of the team. That's probably where I've done, where I've had most success, people introducing me typically is performing really well, you know, on one specific role and then having them and making sure the process is perfect. My communication is perfect. Everything about it is seamless, is nothing stressful. You know, they email me, I email right back. They try and whatever they want, I'm there. So that's typically my best thing is when I get, when I, I told you I branch out to multiple people, but when I start getting somewhere with someone, then I invest a lot of time into that person. And typically, ideally, I'm speaking to people that are hiring managers. And honestly, what I've done before, I've said, what is right now, so I can prove myself, what is the most difficult thing, most difficult skill set that you have? Is there a particular role or project that is in the middle of nowhere that you need to find someone from? What can I do? To prove myself and I'll ask for that and set myself up. And the biggest thing as well is I don't overdeliver. I never have promised something that I know I can't deliver on. I think that's gone a long way as well where I had someone, you know, we tried to work on them on something and the budget just, it just wasn't right. Skill set wasn't right, location wasn't right. So the honesty was there as well. I think it is situational because some people I'm working, I'm speaking to are direct hiring managers. So I get the chance to maybe deliver to them directly and then they're more comfortable opening up to the peers. If it's someone who is more high level and they're not really hiring directly, but their managers beneath them are, then for me it's all about market intel and proving my knowledge, talking about the market, the trends in the market, maybe having references that can refer companies I've worked with, showing projects I've given examples of my work, that kind of stuff. Adding some good context where they feel comfortable enough to then introduce me to other people. So I would say it's two answers. Either I have the ability to work and actually provide an actual project resource and do really well on that, and then ask them once we succeed to open it up. Or if they're not a direct hiring manager, then I just prove it as much as I can by information, references, references to work projects we've done, customers we supported, success cases, that kind of stuff. That's typically what I'll do.

Okay, that makes sense. I guess, like, curious to get your thoughts on this, then, Asha, like, when you think about the, like, sales process, when you think about being in the room when, you know, Oscar's being considered as a program partner or a lot, like, whatever the terminology is, like, does the sales process look different if it was like the typical contract-to-hire stuff? The reason why I'm asking this is because I feel like whenever I speak to people when they're on this journey of wanting to win like the bigger projects, like you do have to like rethink your sales process in the sense that for you to even get to that point of being considered, like you do need to be having these meetings around like the wider commercials of like what are the issues? Like where, where are we going here? Like why is this project important? If we don't have the people on this project delivering, what's the consequences of that? Right. You know, that isn't going into a conversation going like, oh, do you need someone with React experience? Yeah, I've got loads of them, you know what I mean? And jumping straight into that, like, is that something that you've had to evolve over time as well? Because I feel like from my conversation I had with people, it does require a different sales process and a different approach. I don't know how you feel about that.

Yeah, I think it depends who you're speaking to. Again, I think if I look at my sales process, I think I have certain things that are my non-negotiables that we cover. But some, I think the thing you mentioned is what I call reactive recruitment, right? Hey, you need a React person. All right, I've got someone. Great. Solution selling is the difference. And the sale, I don't think the sales process is necessarily different.

Okay.

But you're covering different avenues. You know, you're still doing, you still have your beginning, middle, end. You still have the end goal. But if you're working with professional services managers, all they care, they're just reactive. They have projects that need people. If you're working with a solutions practice manager where they're going in and they're hiring people to sit down with customers and help them redesign an entire infrastructure, then you need thoughtful people, you need thinkers, and you're essentially going to be selling in an entire program. So I think it really just depends on the person you're speaking to and what their needs are is where, is where I would change it. I think what you need to be able to do as a good contract recruiter is be able to do all aspects of contract recruiting and sell in every single different way very confidently. I think the issue is people are very good at reactive selling, but they don't understand the solution side. They don't understand long-term strategy. They're just thinking about now, let me get someone in and then let me go on to the next. I think you've got to look at the bigger picture. If a company goes, if a technology company goes to work with a large bank again and the bank, all they need to do is they want them to host their data center, what that company should be doing is, all right, let's first start with the data center and then we can lead from that into getting all of their software projects and do their websites and do their applications. And from there we can do the testing and then we can look at their AI and their ML and looking at all of that, right? Looking at the whole picture. So I think for me, my fact-finding, the questions I would ask would be different. And when I identify if this person is going to be a reactive partner of mine where they just want me for transactional recruitment or they wanting the bigger picture, the longer scope, then my process would change slightly, but more in my approach and the kind of questions I'm asking and then the people that I'm giving to them. But I think the nuts and bolts of it are your foundation stays the same throughout, if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, that does. I'm going to put you on the spot then.

Yeah, go on.

Because I understand what you're saying. It's the questions that you ask, the fact finding. So that's what I'm going to put you on the spot on. Like, give us an example of like, if you speak to someone that, yeah, you understand is a lot more reactive, like needs skill set, they've got issues, it's just more of like time to delivery or time to just get someone in. Like what does like 1 or 2 fat find questions typically sound like there compared to you speak to someone that like you said, there's a bit more of a larger scope and it's more about like where they're going and like the wider picture. So like, what, give us some examples.

If it's reactive, I'm like, essentially I'm asked the first thing is what's the project? What's the need? Why do you need this person? And it's like, okay, we're doing, we're doing a VMware upgrade, for example, and we don't have the expertise with the NSX or something like that. So for me, that's essentially the biggest thing for me is asking why, why do we need this person? How urgently do we need them? You know, how big is the team? Where's the skill gap right now? Are we just filling a skill gap or is this person going to come in and train everyone else? Those are my questions I would ask for reactive consulting essentially. And then from there, I guess if I'm on the, on the solution side, I, the biggest thing for me is what's, what's the long-term goal here? You know, are we— what are we looking to achieve? You know, are we looking to save money? Are we looking to clear some technical debt? Are we potentially going to be going through an acquisition? For me, the question would be, what's the long-term goal? And understanding where they're trying to get and what they're trying to achieve, why and how, and how these people are going to change that and what type of people they don't have right now, why they don't think the people in their roster right now can get them to that point and why do they need to go there. So for me, I think the why is honestly the question I ask mostly. And that question kind of leads on to the spider of other ones.

Nice. That brings it to life. So that's really helpful. I think something that would be interesting then, because again, I'm sure you've thought about this because you sound— it sounds like you've been like over time just a lot more strategic with the types of accounts you want to bring on and these types of things. So again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here. but just to frame up this question, so I think this might have been like last year when you had one of your, you know, big issues. I think what was in terms of like the spread, because I think that's often what people are interested in. And like if Ash is doing over $2 million in GP dollars, like how many clients does he have and these types of things, right? And I think this sort of feeds quite nicely into what we've just been talking about and, you know, how you've been able to produce the numbers that you have. But on here I've got the spread looked like you had 6 core different customers, 1 very large customer and 5 solid repeat customers. Is that right? Like 1 company you've been doing business with for like 7 years. So, that's quite interesting, right? And is that right? That's like the core elements that like make up, you know, your contract book and what that looked like. Has that like changed over time or is it always when you've done your like best years, has it been Has it sort of looked like that in terms of like 6 to maybe 8 core customers and then you maybe have 1, 2 very large ones? Is that fair or like what's like the makeup look like?

Yeah, I think that's essentially been my, the last 10 years. So just before I came out to the US, where I was strong at and where I'm good at is large accounts and growing those accounts and growing those relationships and managing them. And being consistent and never letting the quality drop. Because I think with— I had— I'm not the best. I would say I'm not the best cold caller. I'm not the best at spot business, essentially. You know, people who don't know what that means is calling someone up, doing a, you know, doing a quick placement, moving on to the next one, having 50 different clients. I was never the best at that. I think I recognized earlier on that relationships were my way forward. And I think some people would say you're putting all your eggs in one basket or you're putting too many, you know, one egg in too few baskets. But the thing is, if you're going after these large enterprise companies, they almost have like 10 different companies within the company. You know, you have different business units. You have some, a company that just does the banking sector, a company that just does the telecom sector, the healthcare sector. So if you can get in with all of those, essentially you're kind of working with 10 different clients with it under one umbrella. And I think it's identifying those companies that have different business units, and I can work with all of those, where having one company isn't the same as having one large client and one contact. I have one large client and about 50 different contacts at the client, you know. I work with pretty much every aspect of that client. So yes, I think the spread— that you are absolutely right. But I think the context is important, that it's— I think some people, where they get where they get clocked maybe is they have one really good client, but they only have one contact. And when that contact leaves, they're building from scratch. And a lot of the time, if the person takes over, has their own relationships, you're left in the dark. So for me, what I'm very good at, I think, is growing out the account and having multiple different relationships and managing each relationship like it's its own company. It's its own subcompany in a parent company. Company. And then I think what's really important as well is having those, those mid clients, right? The ones that come to you consistently, you work with them. You know, my other clients I mentioned, I've been working with for at least 4 or 5 years. And then I've got newer customers who the, the company name is new, but the manager contact is not. You know, they've moved from my old client and they brought me into their new company because of relationships I've had. So really, I've worked with one company consistently for about 7 or 8 years, but I've worked with different contacts that have left that company. They brought me on and I've maintained the relationships with the other company while growing the new companies as well and going through that way. So for me, I think volume, I've managed to grow out the volume, but I'm not spread too, too crazy, right? Having 25, 30 different customers. I'm focused on the quality and growth of these, these smaller groups where I can really control the outcomes and ensure that my relationships last no matter who leaves and who comes and goes. I can still work with this company. So that's kind of been my focus. And I was going off the first few years of my career, I was honestly just trying to get as many companies as I can, but I couldn't build proper meaningful relationships. And for me, I'm just not a spot business guy.

So we'll get back to the episode in just one minute, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. Being able to benchmark your agency's performance against others in your industry has always been impossible until now. Our partners at Firefish have just recently released their industry benchmarking dashboards, taking data insights to the next level by enabling you to benchmark your own performance, your recruiters' and team's performance against others within your sector. The benchmarking dashboards are built on anonymized placement, sales, and KPI data, so Firefish users can get a monthly snapshot of their agency's performance benchmarked against their peers in seconds. If you want to learn more about benchmarking dashboards or find out how Firefish can support your company's growth this year, they very kindly offered our community the Recruitment Mentors podcast a special offer that's going to save you thousands of pounds. Now, this offer is only available until March 31st, so you can click the link in the show description or you can head to firefishsoftware.com/rmp. Well, I think this was going to be my next thing, which you've sort of just been going through, but I've interviewed people in here, contract recruiters, who had— that maybe fell into that trap of like I've got this one huge client, had an absolute mega year, like had a ton of placements that year. But like you said, it was one huge client but also one contact. And then next year something happened and their contract book got like slashed in half. Obviously that's not always the reason. But my next thing that I was going to ask you, which I feel like you're just touching on, was like, yeah, how— because I think I'm sure you've been around people where like they got their weekly GP up to 20, 25K and then they had a moment where that went down to fucking $10K or $5K because one client cut like a huge project or whatever. But it seems like, you know, with your track record, I'm sure there's been some moments where you've been like, fuck, they're cutting all these contractors. And then there's been those ups and downs. But really, if you look at your track record, it's been like consistent, right? And I feel like you've had to be really smart with how you future-proofed your book. And I feel like that's what you're touching on. So this is what I was going to ask you on, like, you know, how does Asher think about protecting his book, right? From going from again, yeah, like you could like, because it's that word complacency, isn't it? Like that, that's what you could easily creep in for you. So how I feel like you're just touching it, but how do you think about protecting your book from having those big hits and then you're starting from scratch?

Sure. So mitigating the risk by spreading the relationships to ensure that you're supporting all the different markets out there. Right. And that's what I mentioned. I said the companies you work with, they have different, like almost different businesses within the business. When you go through recessions or, you know, layoffs and things like that, if you look at it, typically it's certain industries. Some industries get affected and some thrive. If you look at COVID, for example, a lot of industries struggle, but some absolutely thrive. Like during COVID I think it was hospitality, food, drink. I mean, it was probably the worst time to be in that industry. But it, communications, anything to do with anything virtual, anything to do with, you know, Zoom, all of these hosting, they absolutely thrived. Right. So understanding where the market's going and being able to be flexible enough to follow that market and double down on the areas of market where it's going. I think stocks are a good example I could probably use. You know, I have a stocks account and my spread is quite a wide spread. It's across many different industries. When the oil and gas industry is doing really well, I'm doubling down there, but keeping, still keeping a good trickle in, in, you know, in tech and telco and things like that. And then as it starts to shift, I bring it out and I go back again. So it's just about ensuring you're staying on top of the market, seeing where the trends are going, but ensuring that you don't do all or nothing. I think people do that like, oh, I'm just gonna, all I'm gonna do is manufacturing because that's really heavy right now. And then you essentially forget about telecoms and you've done nothing there. And then manufacturing goes down and slows down and telco goes up, but all the relationships are gone because you left it and now other people are capitalizing. So ensuring that you've got an insurance blanket spread across all the different markets as much as you can. I think that's helped me kind of stay afloat and being flexible, moving with the times and ensuring that I understand where it's going. And the way you do that is obviously you get your information, you're speaking to people, but having those relationships in place and keeping in touch. I have relationships where they haven't been able to hire for 15 months. I still we still chat regularly. I still treat them like they're my, you know, that they're my buying client. They just can't right now, but they might in a year, they might in 6 months. They're going to call me eventually. So that relationship is key. I think people, what they do is they follow the money where it is at the time and it's all present. They're not looking at the long term, the future. They're just looking at right now and they put these, what they call, the blinders on, you know, and they're just there. And then that's gone and then they've forgotten about this whole pipeline. So for me, I think what I've done well is I've made sure my future pipeline is consistently growing. My relationships are staying consistent and up to date all the time so that when this market goes like this, my relationships come back and it's all there and I'm staying relevant. That's, I think, what I've done, what I'm proud of and I think I've done well is just ensuring that. And I think people feel it as well. If you're like, oh, where have you been for the last 12 months? I haven't heard from you. Now Now the market's good, you want to reach out. People know what you're doing, you know, so those things go a long way. And I think that had a really good positive effect on me that I didn't, you know, disregard any relationship just because the market wasn't going to allow them to spend loads of money with me right now. But instead they could spend loads of money with me in a year and a year from now that money is still going to be extremely important to me and relevant, right? Because, you know, that business, you know, whatever it is. So I think people need to have that long-term vision. And I think too many people have too short-term, too just present only and not thinking about the bigger picture. And then they get caught, you know, in what you've seen, you know. And so there are things that are unforeseen. You might have done everything well and you have a client who just shuts its doors or gets acquired or they just, you know, they lose a contract. You see that happen all the time. That happens. But if that happens and all of your contractors go and you've got nothing else, then you haven't done enough critical planning in my opinion, and you haven't thought about what could go wrong. I think that's sometimes things, not to be negative, but you've got to think, all right, what happens if this goes? Do I have other relationships? Where can I go? Am I going to be starting from scratch? And just ensuring that no matter what happens, you're never going to be starting scratch and you've always got a base level to build off. That's, I think, what I've done is maintain a consistent level of relationship, of communication with those people to ensure that as the market goes, you know, so does that. And I'm never caught left with nothing, essentially.

It's interesting, right? Because it like sort of loops back around, like you said at the beginning of that, like the information, right? You're going to be making those smart decisions if you're listening, you're asking good quality questions, you're being diligent with your information that you're getting. Um, but now that, that's really helpful. So I guess like as we round out here then, like talk, talk, talk to me about like you've been in this game for a long time, like clearly you, you think about what you do in a strategic way, methodically. Like how, when I say to you like what has, what has Asher had to continue to really focus on when it comes to his craft? Like how do you feel like, how have you I feel like you've mentioned principles a lot. I think you gave me the analogy when we prepared for this. Like, you can't just rely on the protein shake to get big, right? You got to eat correctly. You got to stay consistent. So I'm just curious, like, when someone's done it for as long as you had, you've, you know, you've had some consistent high-performing years. Like, what's your mindset towards, like, what do you, what have you really had to remain sharp with and focused on? You might say relationships again, but like, what have you really had to stay focused on and make sure, show up every single day that you do to make sure that, like you said, you don't find yourself in a situation where you're like, fuck, I dropped my ball, I dropped the ball there and I've now paid the price.

I am a big believer, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My processes work for me, so I follow my processes on everything, right? The same candidate, you know, candidate qualification, candidate's resume, my formatting, my company My team will tell me, they'll send me a resume and I'll reject it. If it's not uniform, I'm not sending it. You know, I'm like that though. Like I've made sure that from the beginning I'm uniform in everything I do and I've stayed with that uniform. I've stayed with that code of conduct that's made me successful and I stick to that every day. I don't differ or stray from the path. I do the basics and I use that. Again, my team are probably gonna hate me saying this because I drill it to them all the time, but I don't stray away from my foundation. And I didn't forget what made me, you know, what made me good in the first place was like my first company, they would cane me with KPIs, man, and I'd be like, oh, what is this? But now I get it because it made sure that repetition just became, you know, automatic. You know, it was a reflex. So I do all the same things meticulously, right? And I follow my process like a uniform. My resume submissions are always the same. The resumes look tight. There's no typos. It's a uniform. I don't stray too far away from the path, double down on the areas when I'm getting success, always be willing to learn and to listen. I think as well has been a big thing for me, understanding that I'm not always, even if I've got 12 years experience, someone with 2 years experience could be, you know, could be right. It's sometimes a tough pill to swallow. But I think my biggest thing, honestly, to summarize and not go too far off the answer is just sticking to my my principles and my foundation and hitting the basics really, really well. You know, making sure when we speak to a candidate, we hit all of the interview questions that we need to ensure that they're a viable candidate. Never panic send anyone. I would rather not send a candidate than send 3 shitty candidates. That's a— I am massive on that. I would rather send no one than hit and hope. My brand is on the line and I protect my brand and my reputation at all costs. So I've never done anything that I'm not sure of. I'd never put someone in the mix that I haven't been diligent with. I haven't taken too many crazy risks. If someone was like, ah, 50/50, I'll just throw them in and see what happens. I'd never do that ever. I'd honestly rather not send someone. I think me sticking to those principles has helped me maintain a level of quality because clients appreciate that way more. If they come to me with something and I can't do it, I tell them, hey, I can't do this. This is not in my remit. We don't have anyone. I don't overpromise, underdeliver. I stick to what I'm good at, double down on those areas, triple down if I need to, essentially, and adapt with the times a little bit with the technology stuff. But I think no matter, you know, 20 years, 30 years, I think the foundations of recruitment will always be the same. You know, the same way you build a house, you need a good structure first. And I think for me, that structure hasn't changed essentially in in 10 years. And I think it's important for people to have their uniform and have a really good code, right? A formula that they follow and they can easily teach to people as well so their team can become successful. So I know it's a bit of a long-winded answer, but honestly, that's—

No, because what I hear there as well is like the, like you've, a big part of whenever I have these conversations when people have performed at a high level for a consistent amount of time, It is, yes, doing those things that you mentioned, showing up, doing them, and sticking to them, but also not letting your standards slip is like the other elements that, right, you've really, you've maintained your standards like you said, like, and that's just as important as well as showing up every day and treating those contractor calls as if like you've just started out. You're asking those important questions, you know, you have to, you're not getting complacent, but then you're also really maintaining those standards and holding yourself to those standards. And if you do that for a long enough time, over a long period of time, you build a reputation, you build repeat customers. And that's something that you can, like you just said, build a repeatable process around. It's just about sticking to it, which is a lot harder than it sounds.

Well, I think actually, I think, well, I don't know. It's hard because I always have this argument with my wife. I'm someone like, just get up and just do it, you know? Opposite there, but I think people make it harder than it needs to be, in my opinion. I think people overcomplicate what we do. Um, I think your— the foundation, the basics have to be the strongest thing that you do, and yet that has to be air— watertight, you know, that has to be just perfect essentially, right? And then on top of that, like we mentioned with the protein shake, you can do your extras, you can go out networking and do your, you know, join the groups and do Twitter and do all those cool stuff, which is, will help you grow, but if your foundation is weak, all those things won't matter. It doesn't matter. If you can't deliver, then, you know, you only, a lot of the time, you only get one chance, okay? Most clients, maybe they'll give you two max, but you can do all that stuff, if you don't have a good process, you don't have a good product, which is everything, I think as well, people have what they do. One thing I've noticed is people have a pedestal where they put the client first over the candidate, which is crazy to me. It's a 50/50 partnership. The candidate, the contractor is everything. They are your product essentially, right? They are, they represent you and your name and you want to ensure that what you're putting out there is as perfect as you can get it. And understanding that the candidate and the contractors that you have are equally as important as the clients that are buying from you. Is your first step to understanding the formula of being successful in contracting. And never, I tell everyone, don't ever promise, I'll have 5 resumes to you by the end of the day. Don't say stupid shit for the sake of it, right? That's not impressive to anyone. What they care about is that you're delivering. So never sacrifice, you know, sounding good for actually being good and stick to your guns and commit on what you know you can deliver on. Don't stray away from those things and I think people will be fine. But that's what I've done. I'm very strict with my team, man. I make sure, honestly, wear uniform. If they don't, if they get off the phone and aren't asking, I've had people, I've had someone call a candidate 4 times in a row. I'm like, go and get it. You know, I will do it. It's repetition because without that information, you clearly, you need to know your product inside and out. If you're selling a car, then, you know, they need to know everything, right? It's the same thing about the people with personality. What have they done? How do they deliver? It's not just what they have, how much money have they saved people in the past? Where are their strengths? All of it. When they ask me questions, I don't want to have to go, oh, let me call them back. I'll let you know. I know everything about that person. So that's for me coming down from those meticulous things, having a good uniform and following that process always. Stick to that. And honestly, I don't see why anyone couldn't be successful in contracting, to be honest.

Actually, there we go. That's our masterclass on BD. The important standards basics. Ash, thank you so much, mate. And, you know, kudos to everything that you've built, mate. Like, I think to do what you've done for a long period of time, consistently showing up, I think says a lot about you, what you're about. So yeah, like, amazing work, mate. And thanks for coming on the pod.

Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it, dude.