2 Years In Recruitment, 2 Contract Books from Scratch: Everything Jenny Learned the Hard Way

Jenny, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, thanks for having me.

Thanks for coming over from Bristol.

Yeah, have—

I was telling you, haven't had a conversation like this for a while where we're sitting down with someone, getting to know someone who is well and truly in the trenches of building their recruitment career. Yeah, so getting close to 2 years in. So to give everyone a bit of context about you and where you're on your journey, so before this, 3 years as primary school teacher. So we're going to talk a bit about What was that transition like? Expectations versus reality. You're nearly now 2 years at Opus. You've always been in contract recruitment from the start, 360.

Yeah.

Doing sales when you ran clients from the start. And in that time, which is where I think a lot of people are going to be able to learn from you, is you've done 2 markets essentially. The first 12 months was PHP developers, Southwest, Southeast. Feel free to correct me if I get anything wrong. Yeah, no, that's all right. So talking contracts, so Got your weekly GP, it peaked at £4,000 a week, got around 6 runners, average GP around £500. That was in your first 12 months overall. Mix of those clients you actually brought on yourself, some inherited accounts that you then had to maximise. Then I think we'll talk about this, but you sort of had your own perceptions of this market, where it was going. And then there was a bit of a strategy decision around actually, we're going to have a bit of a pivot. We're going to focus on a different market. So for the last 12 months, your market has been entirely focused on the Salesforce ecosystem.

Yeah, not 12 months. I started in, um, October.

Okay.

Yeah, that's all right. That's all right.

And then you've sort of carved out a bit of a niche around energy and utilities.

Yes.

Right. So companies like in that sector that, uh, use Salesforce or maybe implement Salesforce. Feel free to correct me if I'm, uh, wrong here. So currently weekly GP, 7,200. Yeah, uh, 7 clients in total, uh, 3 brought on by yourself, one of those being a really solid account that you brought on yourself as well, which we'll get into that story. And I think I'm, I'm referencing that just because you may or may not think this, I'm not sure, but I think anyone that would maybe see the journey that you're on might think you get all your accounts handed to you.

Yeah.

That's why I wanted to put that in there, because I think that could be a perception. You're part of a large organization, so that's why we put in there actually a good number of those you've brought on yourself. And we're going to talk about how your BD journey has been.

Yeah, for sure.

So that is the journey that we're in, but where we wanted to, to start was this sort of career change that you had. So why don't we just— because I was just telling you outside, like, I do— I've got my exposure to teaching by actually going to school, is I've— my wife's friend, she was a teacher, and then she left the okay, so it would always come up in social to speak about. I did— I'm a curious person, so my perception, like, I see why there would be transferable skills, but you can tell us what it was like, just because I can see how much patience you'd have to have managing expectations, managing relationships with parents more so than children. Then you've got actually the teaching element. I guess there's going to be good stuff you can transfer of like you getting training and then maybe being able to implement it more effectively. I don't know, but like, what, what were your expectations going into recruitment from a teacher perspective, yeah, what was like, if we mean you having a chat and I was like, oh, you're going into recruitment, like, what are you excited about? What would you have said, do you think?

I'd say, like, kind of in terms of, like, transferable skills, there's a lot around, like, with teaching, you've got to be organised, you've got to, like, yeah, like you said, like, you've got to be able to kind of work with people and, like, kind of, you're thrown in the deep ends a lot, like, you've got to teach, like, a class of 30 every single day, you've got to plan all those lessons. So, like, I feel like with recruitment, it's kind of similar in that sense. Like, you've got to plan your day out, you know exactly how your day is going to go, but you've also got to be organised, you've got to, like, kind of know what to prioritise, but you've also got to deal with people. Like, there's lots— I mean, I suppose there's lots of different kind of ways that you can compare both of them, but yeah, I suppose expectations going into recruitment I knew it'd be different, but I definitely knew that there were those skills that you could transfer over.

How hard do you think it was going to be?

Well, I thought recruitment would be easier than teaching.

Really?

Yeah, I think— I knew it was going to be hard because I am a hard worker and I knew I didn't want to go into something, like, easier, but I thought, like, dealing with kids is, like, that's really tough. Like, there's so many, like, challenges that come along with that. It's high pressure, and I knew recruitment was that high pressure, but you thought it might be easier.

Yeah, maybe.

Yeah, like, I think— yeah, I just think it'd be easier. And to be honest, I think that they're both equally challenging. I really do, in different ways. It's so different. But, um, yeah.

And then, like, so what— let's talk about the opposite of that then. What maybe— what was maybe easier than— now, obviously you've been in it a little while— what do you think you've been— what's been easier than maybe you anticipated? Or Yeah, talk to us a bit about what's actually you found a bit more easier to adapt to on the recruitment side, on the actual job itself.

Um, what— so, sorry, can you explain that?

Sorry, so obviously we said expectations. Yeah, thought it might be a bit easier, but it's still hard. But like, now you've actually been in a job, what's been maybe easier than you anticipated? Like, what have you found easier to adapt to, or at the actual job itself, what's been easier maybe?

I think the relationship building is something which is similar with teaching. Like, you have to talk to parents who you don't know very well, and you have to build that relationship. And I think with recruitment, that's something which maybe is quite challenging, but actually building that relationship, I've been finding that a lot easier.

It's like playing to your strengths, yeah.

Yeah, I think that's played to my strengths. Like, I just, I feel like with candidates and clients, like I'm really good at speaking to them and kind of keeping up the relationship, staying in contact with them and kind of understanding what they want. And that's obviously kind of similar to teaching.

Yeah, I can see that for sure.

In that sense. But yeah, in terms of other things that I found kind of easy, I think being organised, like the fact that I've got that like skill set already from teaching. That helps a lot. Yeah, that definitely helps a lot. And like knowing what to prioritise with your day if you've got like so much going on at once.

Um, yeah, and you've got to do that a lot.

Yeah, yeah, 100%, like with teaching.

Um, yeah, I mean, those— if you're— that, that makes complete sense. Like, if you have— if you've had a lot of reps of, like, like you said, getting to know children, building relationships with parents, then hopefully there's a good chunk there that can transfer over to recruitment.

Yeah.

And then the organization piece, I don't know what your, uh, experience has been and what you've seen others— not asking you to call out your colleagues here, but we see it a lot. Like, it is something that a lot of recruiters struggle with. Time management, it's often something that most recruiters would just say like they're not good at, or it's a weakness of theirs. So you having that as a strength massively helps, particularly this stage that you're at, because there's a lot that you could prioritize that you have to sort of almost learn the hard way that actually I shouldn't prioritize that.

Yeah, 100%. And I think I always— I used to always do this with, um, when I was a teacher, is I'd have a list of things I need to do and I'd number them like from all the things that were like really, really urgent, I had to do them before I went home, they'd be a number 1. And everything that was like maybe kind of it'd be, it'd be really good if you did that before you went home, but like if you don't, it's not the end of the world, I'd put them as a 2. And then, sorry, as a B. I can't remember if I said—

yeah, A and then B. Yeah, A and B.

Sorry, A and then B. And then anything that was like, um, you, you should, you're gonna have to do that at some stage, but it's not an urgent thing to do today, I'd put that as a C. And I feel like I do the same thing with recruitment now. So if I'm like, you must chase that lead before you go home, like that's an urgent thing, or you have to get XYZ done before you go home, that'll be the A's. And I felt that a technique that I've used through teaching, um, I feel like, yeah, something that—

no, 100%.

I don't know if other recruiters do that.

Yeah, you've got like A jobs, B jobs, they prioritize it that way. But I think a lot of, a lot of people relate to that because I speak to a lot of managers, a lot of leaders, and when they say their team have a time management problem or something that they're really weak on. Yeah, what if you sort of double-click into it? They're putting all of the easy stuff as A and they're putting the hard stuff as C.

Yeah, true. It's figuring out what, what is the right— what you do need to prioritize. Yeah, um, I do kind of— I look at it as like, um, what is like, what is the point of being in recruitment? And a lot of people want to make money, don't they? That like, that's like a lot of the main reason. And I always think, what is the closest for you making money? Like, is it getting— I don't know, chasing a lead? Is it figuring out an extension, like sourcing an extension and that sort of thing? So I always try and— they're the things that I put as the A job. I think they're— yeah, they're the ones you need to prioritise, essentially.

Right, so let's go into this recruitment journey then, so far. So why don't we— obviously we're going to sort of break it into like first sort of 12 months. We've got like 2 different chapters really so far, and you're still very much in, in this chapter. But let's talk about this first chapter, which was a different market. I think the first thing that I'd love to sort of hear your take on, and then I'm sure you've then learned, used these lessons to apply it to the other market, but I'm sure you would have heard people talk about this internally, but having like market expertise and like an understanding of your market, I think for the most part people would agree that that's important. Or a good recruiter would be striving to have market expertise. Yeah, that can take— that takes time.

100%.

Talk to me a bit about— because this is a whole different world for you, right? If you think about it, it's obviously, um, primary school teacher to then speaking to software developers.

Yeah, it's so different.

It's a bit different.

Yeah. And actually, on that, I was, um, like, when I first thought about going into recruitment, I thought about like, probably the best, one of the best ways to be successful would, if you have that market knowledge, then maybe doing education recruitment would be the best way for me to be successful. So I was like, look, I already have, I know exactly what it's like to be a teacher, obviously then would already have that market knowledge. And then obviously looking into it more, thought kind of tech is definitely kind of a place I could grow more in, and I was more interested in joining. So yeah, I had absolutely no idea about anything to do with tech when I joined. And that was so daunting. And I remember my very first telco that I did to candidate about PHP, I just had no idea what to ask. My boss was like, just get on the phone. And I was like, I don't know what to ask. And I was just like, do you like PHP? That was one of my first things I said. And I think we spoke about this before, but you don't have to pretend that you know everything, that you're an expert when you first start because like you're not. And if you pretend that you're an expert, then people are going to see right through that. You want to be genuine, and you want— I, like, I wanted to actually learn it properly, so I asked people to, like, explain it to me. And even now, like, on the phone, like, I guess when I first started with PHP, I'll, like, I always say, 'Can you explain a little bit to me about this tech because I don't actually know it?' Um, and people just love to explain it to you, and that's just kind of how I, how I learn, I think.

Is that, is that literally how, how it would sound? On like a call. Obviously maybe not straight away at the start. At the start you might have been like, what did you say? Do you like— yeah, but like the insight there, and I think you inspired me to share a post on this because this is such, I think, a good insight because yeah, like I do totally understand it. And I, I can definitely relate to this when I was earlier in my recruitment career where you were like, you're aware of like how you're perceived and how you want to be perceived I come across professional.

Yeah.

So that can almost lead you to be trying to be something that maybe you're not yet, that you're striving to. And sort of your insight that you gave me was actually what you found to be a lot more effective, and actually people appreciate it more. Because a lot of people in the industry that you work in have spoke to recruiters who try and act like they know it all, and that actually just rubs them up the wrong way. But you've had a lot of people say to you, actually, I really appreciate being honest. And then you've found people to be actually just really passionate about telling you and educating you, but is that what it literally sounds like? Tell me, I don't— I haven't actually heard that before. Tell me a bit more about that, or like, what does this actually sound like in practice?

I suppose this is maybe going a bit further ahead, but like, with my new market now with Salesforce, it is such a, like, it's a huge ecosystem, it's really interesting, and everyone in it has like got there's loads to talk about, there's so much going on. And in a way, I'll talk about kind of the role that I'm recruiting for, but I'm like, can you tell, can you actually explain to me what this means a little bit more, like what the role would entail from your perspective? Or I'll be like, look, this is the spec that I've been given, I know all of this stuff about it, but on the technology side of things, I don't actually understand fully what this means, so could you explain like how that works a little bit more. Like, obviously I'll ask the client that first, but I'd also kind of get more of it from the candidates, and then I kind of understand it more and more and more. And then when I'm speaking to other candidates, I can just say what I've learned from another candidate, essentially.

And how's that normally received? They're like, oh yeah, like, sure, or like, it's not— you're not normally met with like, how do you not know that?

No, I actually don't know. I'm really not. I've never really been met with that sort of thing at all. I always feel like I kind of— I'm I'd maybe like say to Candice, like, you're the tech, you're the technology, you're technology cool.

You're the expert, you're the tech expert.

Yeah, you're the expert, you tell me about it a bit more. And yeah, people respect it. I think people respect like honest people and they want, they want to work with someone that they can trust. And if I'm kind of saying something that doesn't make any sense, they're not going to trust me. And if I say something that's not completely right on paper, like, yeah, how are they going to trust me? It also works with clients as well. I've had it with a client before. This was actually really early on. I was selling in a candidate on the phone, and they were like— I was like, I think they'll be a great fit. And they're like, how do you know they'll be a great fit? And I was just panicked, and I was like, well, I just think they've got all these skills, and you recruit for this. And they're like, you don't actually know because you're not, you're not like an expert, like you're not technical yourself. And it really like threw me off, and I was like, yeah, you're right, I actually don't, I don't really know. And then he was like, well, that's fine, like, let me explain it to you. And then the manager explained it to me, and I think he just liked my honesty. And actually, yeah, because it could have gone the other way, couldn't it? Yeah, it could have easily gone the other way.

Yeah, you could have kept going, the family like, no, no, no, I do know, they're definitely going to be a good fit.

And it would just annoyed him. So I think, yeah, like, it has definitely worked for me.

I'm not saying it'll work every time, but I think if you lead with humility, curiosity, yeah, I think it's gonna, especially early on, it's gonna, it's gonna help you. I think it's just— imagine how tiring it is every day doing the recruitment job, which is hard, but every day on every call feeling like you've got to prove something.

Exactly.

That's hard. Yeah, that's tiring. It's already enough. So like you said, I think that, that's something hopefully people can take, and I've heard that time and time again. So like, lean into being curious, authentic.

Yeah.

Um, having humility, and hopefully you'll be met with actually a lot more positive feedback than maybe you might anticipate versus, honestly, the amount of recruiters I've met that have been in recruitment for like 6 months but their LinkedIn will be like 2 and a half years just because they want that to look a certain way. Yeah, it's— yeah, I, I do get it, but I think this would be a way more better approach. And also, like I just said, just easy, just a better approach when you're early on.

Yeah, everyone has to start out somewhere and people understand that, so if you're honest about it, you can still do a really good job. Like, you don't have to be technical to be a recruiter, do you? You just have to be good at recruitment. And I think pretending that you're technical doesn't mean you're good at recruitment.

So, anything else that you did, or worth noting, that you think helped you with market expertise? Was you reading stuff online a lot? Was you, besides asking questions, taking information, being a sponge in that sense, is there anything else that you feel like helped your market expertise knowledge?

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely, I followed kind of PHP pages on LinkedIn. So like community pages where people would talk about PHP, like new updates that were happening in the market. Yeah, kind of reading articles about PHP, but I don't think that is what made me improve. Like for me personally, that's not how I would learn. I think that's definitely a way to do it, but mine was more, yeah, just like talking to people, yeah, having the conversations, being interested, asking questions. Um, yeah, like reading people's CVs, I guess, was like— it explained how things work as well. But, um, yeah, I think it will help. People would learn in different ways, um, market knowledge. But I think just being honest and asking questions, yeah, yeah.

How long, how long did it take you to sort of get your, like, first big win, let's just say, in that initial period? What's it got here? Mix of clients who you brought yourself. I don't know what you would define as a big win. Maybe getting your first contractor deal, or—

Yeah, that can be. Yeah, I feel like my first deal was with a client like that I pulled completely on my own.

Okay.

Um, which I wouldn't say it was like the best, like it wasn't like the longest contract, or like, um, yeah, it wasn't the biggest win I've ever had, but I'd say considering how early on I was. Yeah, I think I'd been at Opus for like 6 weeks and I just kind of learnt how to do the job. I saw a direct advert for something in my niche. It was like PHP but then Shopify, which is like an even niche, a niche. And yeah, I just called up the manager and was really, I think, yeah, just really honest. I actually did have some people that I was working with and I just solved them on the phone. And yeah, that's probably I got my first big win was just calling up a direct advert and then I did the whole 360 process, obviously with the help of Opus and my managers and stuff. But yeah.

Was that a good buzz?

Yeah, amazing buzz. Yeah, because I was so like, I just started. I think I didn't realise that it was quite hard to do that as well, like get a client on early. And I just thought like, oh, I'll be able to do that again. Like that was pretty chill. But yeah, it was amazing. It was a really good feeling. Yeah, manage the whole process, like the interviews. And, um, yeah, I feel like that was a big win.

So on that, just so obviously always interested for people to hear like timelines on that. So yeah, 6 weeks. Yeah, just curious looking back now because you would have learned even more, still learning obviously, but yeah, like looking back with the stuff that you do know now, anything that you think actually you did actually really well in that period? Was it actually just owning the fact that you had some people being honest. I don't know, what do you think you actually did well to get that win? Because it wouldn't have just been luck or timing. That would be part of the equation, but you would have done some good things there because I'm sure they got other calls from other recruiters.

Um, I think, like, I think I just worked really hard on it. Like, I knew that I was really excited about it. I didn't just have the call and then I don't know, leave it there. I don't know, I'm trying to think of it.

That can be the insight, is like you got given a shot and you— yeah, that's what— yeah, if that's the standout one for you, yeah, it's like, I've been given an opportunity here, I'm 100% being— I'm getting this done, I'm not letting them down.

And you know what, I wouldn't actually put it all down to just me. Like, my team lead, he was like buzzing for me and he was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing, like, you've got to get some more candidates sent, like, get some candidates sent over now. He like came on the— we like booked a meeting as well. He came on the meeting with me, helped me like kind of hash out the recruitment process. And yeah, I feel like just me being determined and excited about it. I mean, I'm still like that now with like every shot I get. I'm like, this is so exciting. I love it.

That can't be overlooked though.

Yeah, it's so exciting.

Honestly, when there's one thing getting to that point where you get that buzz of like you've won the client, you've won the job and these types of things, but then it's then down to you to deliver, isn't it?

Yeah. I don't really know why, like, kind of what I did. I don't know if it's good to say this, but I don't know what I did any more than anyone else would do, like, in that initial call. But I think the manager just kind of— I think we just had a good, good conversation. Like, I just think we just hit it off straight away on the phone. I wasn't, like, too pushy straight away. It's just you want to have a— you want to kind of show that you're a person, you're not just, like, selling to them straight away. Like, you want to get that balance as well, that But I was so nervous, and that— cool, I was really nervous.

But part of the equation here, which we'll get in and get into, because you hear a lot about this when people are talking about, uh, people either in their recruitment career or are building a really good foundation for success, which is like world-class, world-class basics, more recruitment basics and these things. The reason I bring that up is, okay, yeah, maybe you wouldn't have done anything different, but I'm sure if we looked at the numbers, you've probably given yourself a good amount of chances to actually have that opportunity to get that win in terms of the volume and the inputs. Yeah, that can be overlooked.

Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's true.

That's the other thing that people can take, or at least think about, is like, are they even giving them— to use a football analogy— are they even giving themselves enough chance? Like, are they getting in the box enough? Yeah, there's a lot of people that maybe think, I'm not getting the wins, or I feel like I should be further along, but at this stage, inputs do matter.

100%. Yeah, yeah, it is.

So And I know, because we'll get into it, you basically, you've understood like what's required, what the inputs are, and you're like, right, okay, I'm just gonna keep smashing it and just do it.

Yeah, and that's something that like, yeah, when I started Opus, it was very much like, like KPI-driven. Like, you do have to hit those, that you have to do a certain amount of calls, you have to give yourself that opportunity. And I was like, well, I want to do well. I knew that moving from teaching, I wanted to be really successful And yeah, I would 100% make sure I was hitting, always hitting the stats and whatever the driver was that week, I wanted to try and win it and give myself that opportunity because I didn't really realise that that was what was needed. I think at the time, if I'm honest, I was just doing that because that's what I was told to do. But now I realise that's what gave me that head start and made me do well at the beginning, definitely.

So let's just because it might— I'll go into what it looks like now. Yeah, but just quickly, just as we're talking about this now, like, what— so what did that— what did a typical day look like then? Like, because I think that'd be interesting for people to hear in this early period, in your first like 6 or so months. Like, you tell me, I don't know how the day was structured.

Okay, yeah, so, um, I definitely— so to start the day by like checking adverts and seeing, seeing kind of new adverts that were posted But yeah, the morning was always— and I still kind of stick to this now, you know.

Okay, fair.

It's always kind of chasing your hot leads first. So getting some early calls in to clients that you haven't managed to catch on the phone, or select some hot leads that you really want to get on. So you do that client call first, but then most of the morning is spent with candidate work. And that's— yeah, I wouldn't— You want to be on the phone. I try and get at least 5 candidate calls in the morning where you kind of gather information, kind of project information and, yeah, that sort of thing. And then, yeah, second half of the day, I'd say, yeah, second half of the morning, you're going to kind of go through all the information that you found, adding managers around that and then reaching out to managers. You might say like, Say I've spoken to someone in the morning who's worked at a company that I think I could be really valuable to that company. I'll be like, I spoke to this person this morning, I know you've hired them in the past. Yeah, are you looking for anyone else?

Should I do that in the afternoon with the information you got?

I kind of, I do that more in the morning. Like, I do that, the kind of the longer calls in the morning, and then from like in the afternoon, I'll get up a list of clients that I know kind of specific to the candidate I read, like a hot candidate from the morning, and then Yeah, try and get as ideally like 8 to 10 Canvas calls, like manage client calls in the afternoon, um, and then the end of the day you go back to candid work basically. So that's kind of how I structure my day.

A lot of calls.

Yeah, a lot of calls.

Yeah, what would be like, okay, how many, how many calls you reckon you make in a day?

I think it depends on the day. If I've got enough, if I'm like in like business development mode and I've got no kind of shots that I'm working on and I'm just trying to get something new on. Um, I know I try and get like 8 to 10 Canvas calls, like manager calls a day, and then similar amount of Canva calls. So yeah, like maybe, I don't know, 20, 20 calls.

And you're like, but are you kind of— that would be if you spoke to someone?

Yeah.

Yes, we're not— we haven't even mentioned how many. Well, just, yeah, you're not having even the amount of like calls that wouldn't have picked up or we didn't get through, you know? I mean, it's gonna be a lot more than that, right?

Yeah, yeah, a lot more than that. I'm not really sure, I just keep going until— yeah, until until I've done it. Yeah, because it's always that one more. It could always be that, like, that one extra call that, um, because it's annoying.

Yeah.

And if you don't make that call, then you haven't got that win. Or sometimes you'll do like one call and then you get a win straight away.

It's okay. So basically, I like that. So basically what you said is you've probably got this ever-evolving, like, uh, data, like, hot leads that you're chasing. Yeah, that might be information that you have or that you gathered maybe a couple of days before or different things, I'm assuming. So trying to prioritise that in the morning, then you're going to be speaking to candidates, getting information. And it sounded like if you, if there's some really, and this would be you learning your market and you prioritising, you just heard so-and-so company just started to implement Salesforce, let's just say.

Yeah.

And you're like, right, I need to act on that. You would like do that straight away pretty much versus, yeah, okay, so you're doing that a bit reactive. And then in the afternoon, typically just doing a real focus point on biz development. So what canvas call is you calling a hiring manager about a particular person that you're working with?

Or, um, some, like, that's an example of one. Or it could just be a cold call to a manager in your markets that you want to introduce yourself to. Um, just any, any call to a hiring manager. They might not be hiring at the time.

They could, they could just call that canvas call. Yeah, everyone might call it that, so I was just curious.

Yeah, yeah, that's what we call it.

Yeah, okay. And then, and then after that period, what then? What, 3 till 5, or I don't know, 4 till you leave? You're then going to speak to candidates again, do all that stuff?

Yeah, so that's more— I use that as my kind of like keep in touch time. So, um, a candidate that I've been speaking to about a role, um, like they, they obviously need to be updated on how their application process is going. So, yeah, I'd use that time to keep in touch with candidates that I've been speaking to over the last few weeks and obviously build your relationship. That's really important for your, like, speaking to the same candidates, and that's when you're kind of going to get the hot leads and just those kind of more deeper conversations, I suppose, where you're going to get to know people a bit more.

And this is like all pretty much what it looks like today as well in terms of how you're approaching your days and stuff?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, people always love hearing that, but I think it's good to— yeah, it's good to hear. Like I said earlier, back to the point, when you told me then how many calls you're making, you're talking about people actually spoke to. But what's good, like you just said, you're like, I'm just calling until I speak to someone. So there's— I think that, that's the insight for people, is like, are you doing enough reps? Are you giving yourself enough opportunities? Because even if you do have those number of calls, and I don't know how you planned. Yeah, you're just having more reps to go, right, this one I do differently next time. Or like, I actually found that hard. Might also manage to go, I had this question today, I really didn't know how to handle it, can you help me make sure that I understand to do that next time? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

If you're not giving yourself enough opportunity to even have those experiences, you're not gonna learn. It's so hard. Yeah, which is harder. You just— because then all of a sudden, especially when you're early on and you're not doing as much volume, those like calls mean more. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Because, oh my God, I haven't— I've only had like one call this week. Yeah, and you get through to that person and you just absolutely screw the call. So I think you dwell on it because, yeah, that was my cool one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's just talk about that for a sec because this, this podcast originally was called The Recruitment Roller Coaster because that, that was what my first year in recruitment was like. It was really hard. I went from being like a top salesperson in like an insurance sales environment, it was like call center to then bottom of the pack, really. And it was a very different type of sale. It was a longer deal cycle. It was just having to deal with people.

Yeah.

Before, I was just selling car insurance. It was a yes or no. So it was very different. And it took me a real while to sort of have that, like, click moment and, like, where things really started to happen. And we called it a recruitment roller coaster, right? So that can often result in people, like, leaving our industry, which I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear.

Yeah.

So let's just talk about this because You— I've got here, nearly quit during this period. Just tell us about this because I think this would be good for people to hear. Yeah, so what— I wouldn't say like I nearly quit, I was thinking it might have been an internal conversation.

Yeah, it was like a definite— yeah, 100%, I can relate to that, that roller coaster feeling.

Like, so talk— what, what would you say— what do I mean— what would you say would be some of the, the things that might start that voice coming in your head of being like, you sure you want to do this? Actually, I'm not really enjoying it. It's really hard. Like, what, you know, I've got here dropouts, things not going your way, you know, candidates that maybe let you down. I don't know, you tell me what have been some of the things if you think about it. And you still have them, you'll still have it now, or going on to move in the years, there'll be days where you're like, oh my God, this is absolutely savage. But like, what were some of those things that maybe kick-started this?

Yeah, I feel like Definitely, like, when you say rollercoaster, because for me, and I feel like other people in recruitment probably feel the same way as me, otherwise you wouldn't do it, but when you're getting the wins and you're on the highs and you're getting, yeah, you're doing loads of deals and all of that, it is really fun and you're like making money and it's really good. So then when the bad stuff happens, it just feels like horrible. It's just like complete opposite, like it's so different. And yeah, exactly, like when you spend ages trying to find the right person for the role, and then I've had it where like they, I had a bad feeling about someone, I probably shouldn't have put them forward, but then they got the job and then they took ages to get started and then the client really wanted to have them start and then we just prolonged the process for ages and then they dropped out like after waiting for so long and it was just so painful. Like that was a really early like loss, I was like, oh, 'This is painful,' and you have to face that, speak to the Bahraini manager and everything. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, and you don't have like, not all the days are good, so you've got like kind of the days when, say I don't get through to all those people, all the people I do get through literally just don't want to talk to me and that sort of thing. So there are like lots of lows with the job where you kind of feel like, yeah, you're not, you feel like a win's never going to happen again. I feel like I've had that feeling and that's like what I had with PHP, so I was— I did really well when I first started, and then I think something happened with that kind of market, um, and candidates were like, I don't have any interviews. I didn't have any clients that were coming back to me with requirements, and it just felt very like boring. And like, my books dropped. And yeah, that's when I was kind of thinking like, well, is this— is this right for me? Because I don't feel like I can do it anymore. I thought I could do it, and then It feels like you're doing something wrong, and I really thought like, oh, I've forgotten how to do it, or I just, I don't know if I'm—

Because you're doing the same things but not getting similar results.

Yeah, and then because I wasn't getting results, maybe my motivation dropped as well, to be fair, which I think that means I wasn't doing the same things that I was. So yeah, that's definitely what, like, kind of I'd say a low point feels like.

Would you be surprised if I told you that a lot of people that I speak to, like managers and stuff, And different people, I'd probably say if you— the, the hardest way to start in recruitment would be that you get loads of wins early and then you'd have a prolonged period of not getting wins.

Really?

Versus I think a lot of people would prefer to have a lot of like shit they have to deal with and then get wins. Yeah, because like you just said there, which is interesting, which I know a lot of people have battled with and would have then resulted on actually it's not right for me, is like you just said there, like you thought like you could do it Yeah. And then, yeah, actually what's going on. Yeah, motivation, getting knockbacks like you normally would but being able to manage them. So like, that is hard.

Yeah.

So what— how did you— how did you ensure that? That obviously part of it was changing strategy, changing market.

Yeah.

But anything to share there in terms of— there might be people listening that are in that stage now. Like, anything to share around how did you make sure that that that wasn't your recruitment career, like, that wasn't it, like, how come you kept going?

Well, I think I was very determined because I remembered what the good feeling was like, and I was told when I started that recruitment was a rollercoaster, so I kind of, I thought, like, it was worth, like, hanging in there because I felt like I could, I knew what the winds were like at the beginning and I knew what, like, I had like a little glimmer of what the success could look like, and I got my commission, and then like it just started going down, and I was like, oh, but it can go up again. Um, and I think, yeah, just kind of staying motivated. I spoke to my, like, kind of people around me that I work with as well, like my managers, um, about like how I wasn't sure about PHP and, and that sort of thing. And then, yeah, obviously I think the main thing for me was the market shift, to be honest. But I don't think that's for everyone. Like, not everyone's going to get the opportunity to change market, so it has to come from like a reset. I'd say something needs to kind of reset in your, in your mindset, or like how you're working, because something needs to change.

At least you might need to just get someone to try and be honest with you, like, do you think I'm doing anything wrong here? Or yeah, like, just try and get a bit of— because that can be hard to ask for that if you are feeling a bit unmotivated and you're not feeling really positive about the things that you're doing, it can be quite hard to have that courage to ask your manager to be like, can you just sort of be really honest with me and just say what I'm doing wrong?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And like, yeah, I think not everyone wants to ask, or like you don't want to hear what you're doing wrong always, almost.

Um, but yeah, because I know, I know that's hard for people, and I'm sure there's still going to be some of those low days Yeah, but oh, 100%.

I'm being really positive, but it's definitely still like days when it is tough. Like, would you— you feel like you don't know when you're next gonna do— I don't know, get a good win.

And that's— but like you said, genuinely, it is— it's like cliché, but I understand why people end up saying like, you know, we change people's lives and these things, because like you will get a real buzz when you've built really good relationship with someone, you put them into a really good project or put into a really good job like that. That is a real— that's a real solid buzz. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Yeah, that can be pretty addictive.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And then you're like, well, I want to do that again, and you have to keep going until you get that feeling again.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So let's talk about this, like, this changing market then.

Yeah.

So we've spoken about how you've approached your day, so we're still doing those elements, have been doing those elements. You've spoken a bit about approach to market insights. So very much speaking to people, speaking to people in your market. Do you want to tell me a bit about— because I think this is always interesting, and I've had a number of stories on here where I don't know if we'd say that they like stumbled into it, but because they're being curious, because they may be asking for— asking good questions. But talk to us a bit about how you ended up with this energy and utility niche? Because I think that's quite interesting, because again, that is something that I think the best recruiters— you do have to be agile, you know. We're talking about, obviously, you're in an organization where they made a pivot.

Yeah.

But not everyone is going to be in an organization where they have a manager or, um, more experienced people to go, you know, actually, let's slightly pivot this way, and I think that, that might really help us.

Yeah.

And I think how you can even be aware of what these potential pivots you can make is the conversation you're having, being curious and these things. And sometimes you've got to be willing to take action on those things. So tell us a bit about— I got here, got early traction with energy and utility. Like, just tell us a bit about how this happened, because I know you've met— you've created this yourself.

Yeah, yeah. So I guess when we first, um, started Salesforce, we kind of— those 3 of us that moved on to it as a, as a market, and we kind of were thinking of ways to to split up into different patches. Like, were we going to do location? Were we going to do industry or kind of like job role within Salesforce? And I think we did like a loose kind of industry split early on. And I don't even know if energy was on my list. I think we just— I can't remember, actually. I think I was going to do maybe like health. We just like kind of did it quite loose. We'd done a little bit of market research, but hadn't done much ourselves. And then, yeah, the more I kind of, the more I spoke to people in the market, I did a lot of work actually around like talking to like program managers, 'cause with Salesforce, program managers are the people who run the implementations. And if a company's implementing Salesforce, they'll hire a program manager, and then they'll usually hire contractors to help. With implementation. And, um, yeah, I heard about, um, an implementation happening with an energy client through, through talking to a program manager. They're like, this is a big one that's happening at the moment. And then I thought, oh, that would be quite like a, an interesting company to focus on. And then, um, spoke to some candidates there as well.

So after you've got that information—

yeah, after that information. Yeah. So I do, we do like kind of, we call it like a traitor call where you talk to someone who works there and they kind of give you some more information or that they might be looking to move on as well. So found out like a lot of information about that company. And then the more I looked into it, the more they were implementing this really niche cloud called like the energy and utility cloud.

Okay.

Which is quite a new product that Salesforce brought out like in like the last 5 years. It's quite recent. and it's really hard to find people in that skill set. So I thought, oh, that would be good if I can kind of find people with that skill set and, and, um, yeah, get them in with them. So I used that as— I found the people that they'd want first and used that as a way of getting in with them. And yeah, had a really good— had a really big win with, um, one energy client. And then I realized that, yeah, that's kind of a busy— it's a busy area within the market, and I now had the candidates, I now had a case study. So then just use that to keep building, keep building out my market. And yeah, energy and utilities is like a really big market within Salesforce, and because I've had a few kind of wins within that now, that's just where it's gone from there, really. Yeah, I love that, and I focus on that now.

So yeah, yeah, I love hearing stories like that. That's because like you, you made that happen.

Yeah, but you kept building.

Yeah, that's the thing, that's what I wanted to ask you. How you may do this naturally, I don't know, but I think when I do speak to managers and leaders, sometimes what they can find hard to train, yeah, for someone that's at the stage of your career is like connecting those dots.

Yeah.

So, you know, you said they spoke to program manager, they said about a particular company is actually implementing Salesforce, this is happening. You use that information to go, right, okay, I'm gonna try and speak to people that are on site get information that way. You then got information, used all that information to then get to the next point, you know what I mean?

Is that—

you tell me, can— how have you got better at that? Is it quite natural to do? Anything to share there to make that easier for people?

I don't think I'm natural at that at all, to be fair. Really? I know, at first. So I, I'm very quite— I like chase the quick wins at first, and I very much, if I wasn't getting a win somewhere, I'd jump around. I jumped around quite a bit at first and would focus on an area for, for a bit, and then, but, oh, nothing's happening over there, I'm going to move and like to different areas of my market. And I'd say actually like kind of people at Opus and like training at Opus, that was something that we're taught quite a lot, is focus on target clients. And, and that's something that I think, yeah, I learned it more from actually being trained in that area. Yeah, okay, into how to do that. But, um, but now it's so natural to me, and I think I saw the win in that. And that was kind of early on when I didn't have— when I didn't do that sort of thing, like, I wasn't really getting wins in that area. But yeah, once— now that I've had that experience doing that sort of thing, now that's like loads of— like, I'd say most of a lot, like, 2 days a week I'd spend doing target client work as well, like, obviously doing calls and and all of that is involved in the target client work. But yeah, I'd say that's a lot of my time is spent doing that.

So it really helps having that whole experience going, right, okay, I need to do more of that.

Yeah.

And there's a real evidence of that. Just like curious, I'm putting you on the spot here, but like, because you hear this a lot, so I think it would be helpful for people to understand like what this actually means. I mean, I hear this even more particularly when it's contract.

Yeah.

Which is get information.

Yeah.

What's good information? What would be our, like, A information? What would be our C information? Do you know what I mean? So, like, when we're speaking to these contractors or people at this education company, and this is, I'm assuming, something you're going to keep getting better at.

Yeah.

What sorts of things are you curious about asking questions around, trying to gather information around, that would then say to you and signal to you that, right, I need to really act on this, or like, this is really good information I can then use in my next call.

Yeah, okay, so definitely—

and we might get technically, but that's fine, don't worry about it, we can go— it might be specific to sales, it doesn't matter, it'd be good to hear it.

Yeah, sure. Well, it's definitely, um, this isn't technical, but like the number of contractors they have already on board. If you find out that there's like one freelancer who works once a week, then I wouldn't say that's company that you want to target. If you know that they, they've got like a lot of contractors, like their whole team is made up of contractors and that's how they resource the project, then that's the company that you like 100% are really interested in. That's like an A information. They'll be like a client that you want to target. Um, I'd also say if they're doing something, if you kind of hear through a candidate that they're looking for someone who's got a really specific skill set that like maybe someone who's Salesforce permanent wouldn't have that experience. So like this energy and utility cloud, for example, there's not really any permanent people that have that. There are, but like, this is very, very rare.

Yeah.

So yeah, I guess the niche skill set would be something which is like, okay, they're using that, they need that, then yeah. Um, and yeah, a new, a new cloud, say, with Salesforce, they there's lots of different products you can buy, and they're all cool. They're built on like clouds, basically. And if you find out some information that they're going to be implementing a new cloud, for example, that's really— yeah, that's really useful information because you know that that's probably going to mean more hires, more contract hires. Um, yeah, those are probably the most I can think of for now.

And what would be— again, putting you on the spot here, but like, what— um, yeah, so like, let's just view it as if I was in your team Okay, and I just got off a call with a contractor on one of these sites, and I said, oh yeah, I just got some really good information. I found out the things, like, is there anything else, like, just more like recruitment, good quality basics that you'd expect me to say? I've also got this information, do you know what I mean? Okay, yeah, you might be doing that really well.

Um, I guess you can ask what, like, if they're a contractor themselves, what their rate is, like their day rate.

Nice.

Yeah, like day rate, how long they've been working there for, because if you know that they're Yeah, on for a 6-month contract. That's really useful. Um, yeah, when they started. Um, I'm sure there's some more things.

Okay, fair. No, that's good. That's like, again, I think that's just helpful because honestly you hear information all the time.

Yeah.

The other thing that I just want to hear your take on, and this is something that I guess because I haven't been in your shoes for a while, I'm just curious as to like hear how you'd approach this because I can imagine that if you're just to call these people.

Yeah.

And just say, how long you been on site? What's your day rate? Like, it's not gonna work like that, is it? Like, because that's just all take.

Yeah.

You know, back to your point earlier around something that you feel like actually being able to do really well is people and people and speak to people. That's what I'm always curious about as well, because I'm very aware these conversations can be nuanced, and I'm sure these people get called a lot from other recruiters.

100%.

And I'm sure a lot of them I'm assuming here, you can tell me, but I'm sure sometimes they've had bad experiences of feeling like they were just used.

Yeah.

So how— when information is so important, how do we get better? Or what, what's the sort of approach that you've had to get better around, better around to make sure that that other person doesn't just feel like every time that Jenny calls me she's taking something from me?

Yeah, 100%. That's like, that's so important. And you're never— you're not gonna get information really. You might be lucky to call someone the first time and they're like an open book, but you're not going to get that the first call. So you need to, yeah, make sure you're kind of doing multiple calls with these people and following up. But, um, something that I do which, um, I think it's really like really helpful, and I like— I'm pretty honest about it— I'll say, look, I'm working in the energy and utility sector for Salesforce. It's very niche. and I just want to be connected with everyone in this— I want to be connected with everyone in this network, so I like to speak to professionals, even if you're not looking for a job. I just like to speak to people so that I— so when you are looking, I know you already. And I think candid, that's often received quite well because I'm not just saying, oh, I want information about the place you're working. I'm kind of saying that you're a professional in this area, I specialise in this space, how can we work together in the future? And that often is quite like a warm introduction, I'd say, to someone on the phone. And then you can talk about potential clients you're working with, what they've got in the pipeline. And even if they aren't looking right now, they know to come to you when they are looking. So they've got— that's what they're getting from me. And then I can get what I want from them, which is information. So I think it's like a two-way street. You've got to give them something. And I think just showing that you work in their, their, speciality is.

Yeah, you're communicating what your goals are and yeah, how you can maybe work together in the future, how you can be helpful to them, maybe not now straight away but in the future. Yeah, I think, yeah, if you're not doing that, that makes sense. I think some people might go, I've heard this all before, but still you're saying like, this is what I'm doing, this is what I want to connect to and speak to you. And then the more that you do that, I'm sure you're doing this more and more now, but then you can start name dropping, right? And you get credibility through association. It's like, 100%, I spoke to Jenny that I think you worked on the last project at so-and-so company. Like, you can do more and more of that then want you, as well as this is the ecosystem that I'm learning about that I want to be the world connected in, etc., and set out your intentions.

Yeah, and then it goes back to what we're saying in the beginning. You can ask them about kind of— you can ask, you can say, look, I'm not that technical in this space, can you explain some more? And then you kind of build that relationship. Like, you have that conversation again with people who aren't looking, who aren't actively looking, and they're just— you just get to know them, essentially. And not everyone wants that. Like, not everyone wants to Yeah, you've got—

that's the people.

You've got to find the people that want to.

Yeah, yeah. What, again, just on this, because I know it's so important, what's been your experience with, like, when I've sat down with contract recruiters, oftentimes they can say on this part specifically, they just end up just really trying to get to know the person and all the different things about their life. And like, I don't know, is that— has that played out for you? I'm just interested, like I don't know.

Yeah, I do. I think I do that a bit, to be fair.

Yeah.

Which I think, yeah, you need to get the balance. Like, it is such a waste of a call if you're on the phone just chatting to someone and you're not getting the information. So you need to, um, I often, if it's a call, if I, if I know this is, this, this could be a really good call and I could really get some good information from this, I'll often write— I don't know if this is the best thing to do, but I'll often write down the points that I want to get out of the call, and if I feel it going off track a little bit, just make sure I bring it back to those questions. And it's important to get the balance because if you do find out a bit more about them, then you can build that relationship with them from that side of things, and they're probably more likely to want to talk to you and to give you that information. But yeah, you definitely need to— it's hard to figure out the balance.

Yeah, that's sort of— you found that in some instances be helpful. I guess it's an organic thing, isn't it? But yeah, again, I'm just curious because it might help people. Like, if all day, if you listen to the last 10 calls you had with contractors that you have worked with or not working with currently, is it just all like take, take, take? I think it'd be interesting. Like, if that is— if when you listen back and it is all take, yeah, then my— hopefully there's some room for improvement now as to like why you're not getting as much information or why— how you can make those calls better. Yeah, um, that's just me, that's just me saying that. Yeah, yeah, just in terms of like, I was just saying that like, if, if you all this all your time you're just talking about that, I don't know, you might get them in results. Yeah, I'm not saying like every time you speak to someone then, I don't know, you always ask them about their family or different things, but I can, I don't know, like I do that naturally in sales calls and I can only see that helping.

100%, that's like part of the building the relationship, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, a billion percent.

Yeah, versus every time I speak to Jenny she wants to know what my day rate like what the new project is, or like, I feel like that hopefully that might be helpful for people of like, I guess you can get, you could probably be successful by just taking from everyone, but I don't know how sustainable that is. I don't know, especially if you're in a very niche, like it sounds like you're in a quite small niche ecosystem.

100%.

So how quickly could it turn around? Because that's the other thing that I've heard is like contractors speak to other contractors, right?

Yeah, but don't talk to Jenny about that.

Yeah, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's just something to think about, I guess.

100%. No, that's definitely like the best way to build a relationship. I think that's— yeah, definitely.

What— and then just final point on this, uh, have many of your contractors on WhatsApp? Yeah, people often think that.

Yeah, I've got them all on WhatsApp.

Okay.

Is that—

it's just because again, it's like, how do you— how do you— what would you say is— this is speaking out loud— yeah, what makes someone be like, go from like an average relationship to like a great relationship? Sometimes a good sign of that is like, can you just WhatsApp your— yeah, do you know what I mean?

100%.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, oh, everyone's different, aren't they? And some contractors, I think, probably don't like it when I call them that often.

They do. You've got to figure that out, haven't you?

They just want to speak to me when, like, when it's doing their timesheets and that sort of thing. But I'll still WhatsApp them and be like, look, listen, it's time to do your timesheet. And I, I get the, the balance of what they want from me. But some of my contracts love it when I call them. Like, I speak to some of them like every couple of weeks, especially, um, like my energy, my energy contractors, because they give me information about the market as well. And, um, the Salesforce ones, yeah, they, yeah, and they've definitely, a lot of them, like, that's kind of how I keep my relationship with them is by phone calls and like talking to them about Salesforce. Um, and we also went to a Salesforce event as well like a few weeks ago, so I met all my contract— they all went to that as well. So yeah, it's really good. So I met all of them in person as well. So that's another way. Oh yeah, for sure, good relationship with them.

And if you had— you done much of that up until that point, or—

no, no, I definitely say I want to do more.

Yeah, did it make you feel like I need to do more of that?

Yeah, definitely. It was easy because I was at an event, but I think there's no harm in going to meet them for a coffee if you live locally. And just, yeah, kind of— they, they are also in the market from a different angle to you, so they can give you information and you've built that relationship.

So yeah, yeah, I think of course you can be successful without meeting people, but I think in, in today's world, I think it's just going to get you even extra edges.

100%, I think. Yeah.

And then if you're doing it in an environment where everyone's there because they're curious about the industry, they're like, you're learning, you're getting all that, as well as you're meeting these people in the place where they're learning about the industry that they're passionate about. So again, this all ties into what I'm seeing actions from you that match up with like, you want to be connected, you're learning about this space, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm actually seeing that, you're not just telling me.

Yeah, definitely.

That's the other thing as well.

And then they trust you because you know about the market and you're interested in the market. So yeah, so yeah.

And also on the relationship building, like when you're in person, you chat about different stuff and you end up learning different things about people, which I know may not result in business straight away or more information straight away, but I'm sure in the long term you're more and more likely going to be the person that they call when they are, they are just finishing up their contract, or they've just found out this new bit of information they really felt like they wanted to tell you, do you know what I mean?

Definitely, yeah.

So what, what has been— what do you think has been the most— this comes up the most often, and I think with where you're at in your stage the business development side, I just want to hear your take on like what, what would you say has been the most consistent strategy or approach that has given you the most dividends, you think, on like— and we would say the wins just being getting in front of clients and yeah, speaking to them, because then downstream from there good things can happen. But like what has been the most consistent strategy that has resulted in good meetings in front of clients that you want trying to do business with at some point?

I think just showing that— I'd say, um, kind of how I present myself on LinkedIn would be something that I do. So like, I've definitely branded my LinkedIn to show the market that I'm, I'm doing. And I do a lot of work on LinkedIn as like an introduction to a client, more than maybe emails that I did at the beginning. So I used to kind of send a lot of emails, but now connecting with someone on LinkedIn, they can see the area that I specialize in, and then kind of directly messaging on through LinkedIn would be, um, yeah, a place that I get a lot of wins. And then, um, obviously kind of picking up the phone, speaking to people, like relaying the information that I've learned, um, for speaking to other people as well. Uh, yeah, I'm trying to think of anything else at the moment.

What— and when on LinkedIn, like, just interested, like, are you approaching a lot like you would you'd sort of say, this is what I do, good to be connected. I don't know, you tell me, like, how are we— people getting on date with LinkedIn messages?

Yeah, true. I don't do it too— I actually— it depends really on the person. Um, if— what I tend to do is I connect with them first, wait for them to accept the connection, and then I send them a message. And it's normally quite, um, it's not a very full-on like paragraph, like a salesy paragraph. I normally um, we'll kind of just send them a, like, a casual message saying like, hey, like, we're running similar circles, like, how's your role going at X company, um, it'd be great to have a call at some point. And then, yeah, often try and follow up with that with a call.

Um, what would have been like— I'm not sure you saw my LinkedIn message. Yeah, and then you're trying to go for the same approach. Yeah, you might have some information that you might say on the call that— how's that going?

Yeah. I think it actually just depends on the situation. Like, if it's very cold and I don't know much about the company, then I normally do it like that. Whereas if I have a bit more information, then I would, um, yeah, give them a bit more of a kind of sellable—

you'd also try and do that on LinkedIn?

Yeah, information. Yeah, I, yeah, I find LinkedIn at the moment— it's— I go through phases actually, but at the moment I feel like that's where I'm getting a lot of my wins because it's more— you're more of a person on LinkedIn because you've got your picture, you've got your profile, instead of just an email from someone they don't know. Um, I find that's kind of more of a friendly approach.

And then how are you— I know we're getting into the detail here, but like, how— like, we've highlighted information is crucial. Yeah, just give us a bit of an example. Doesn't have to be word for word, but like, how would you frame a piece of information to— I don't know who we're speaking to here, program manager, or I don't know— like, how are you then using that information? Is it, I spoke to so-and-so who said that, um, you guys might be struggling with this, that's something actually that I might be able to help with, we helped so-and-so, I don't know, you tell me, like, how are you sort of tying in the information?

Yeah, I do it like that, or I'd kind of say, like, considering this is like a niche area to be recruiting for, and this is— I've just been doing something similar with X company, um, how can I— could I— is this something that you'd be interested in? Can I add value? Um, I also might say, like, what's your relationship like with recruitment agencies? Because if they've already got a recruitment agency they use, then there's not really much— or I don't know, they're happy with and they're not gonna— there's no way they're gonna go to anyone else, then it's good to know that as well, because then I won't kind of focus my efforts elsewhere, like where, um, there's more going on. But, um, yeah, I had— yeah, I did have something I was going to say, but I can't remember. It's gone from my head.

Connect the dots that way, because I know, again, that's That's the sort of skill really where it's like you're getting this information, but then it's how you actually then use it. Yeah, in these conversations.

Yeah, exactly.

Are you— what about then if you're just focusing on this, this niche piece, are you having a lot of success? You tell me on— just spoke to this contractor, they're finishing up soon, they've got experience with this, and then, you know, pitching people over the phone. I don't know, you tell me, is that something that is working is getting good results for you?

Um, that's— that's definitely something I do, I do a bit of. But I'd say actually kind of where I got— I'm getting a lot of my wins as well recently on LinkedIn is looking within my market with Salesforce, looking at companies which have recently hired somebody in that space. I don't know if you've heard people doing this before, but like if a company's just hired a program manager, then they're probably going to be growing in Salesforce, or if they've just hired a Salesforce architect on a contract basis, it probably means they've got a big project they needed an architect on board for. So I'd say that is probably an area that I'll get, um, I find it's, it's quite kind of a good introduction because you're about to look— I've seen you've just hired somebody and I can see that on LinkedIn. Um, you can, you can set it, you can make a project on LinkedIn where you like set the years someone's been at a current company for to like less than 1 year.

Yeah, to less. Yeah, and then you can see you just joined.

Yeah, you see he's just joined, and I feel like that's definitely an area— it's a good introduction because you can say you've seen this, um, and then hopefully it means they're going to be growing some more as well. So yeah, that's okay, that's where I kind of feel a few little strategies. Yeah, yeah.

And again, all of this is a caveat with you've got to be doing quite a lot of volume. Yeah, it seems you've got to be doing quite a lot of these conversations. Have you— would you say that you've like mapped your market to a certain degree? Yeah, you're aware of X number of companies that operate in this space?

Yeah, I wouldn't say— I feel like I, I'd like to think I've mapped it pretty well, but obviously if I come across a company that I didn't know about, I'm like, oh no, I get annoyed. I'm like, why have I not seen that before? So yeah, I definitely would say I've mapped it pretty well because I think sometimes that can be overlooked by people.

Yeah, because it's way more helpful to sort of do that because really it's not entirely finite, but there's probably X number of companies that you could probably work with if you're in a particular niche, you know what I mean? Versus a lot of people may not even make the time to actually map the, the companies that they could do business with. Yeah, so it's always this, just this messy leads list or different things. But if you actually do the legwork of like, right, this is probably 90% of the companies that I could actually do business with, yeah, operate in the space, then you can work backwards from that.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, it's just way more easier. Yeah.

And you can focus on those companies, um, and so that they know you as like Jenny the energy.

But then it's like, yeah, you, yeah, you sort of got a bit of a clearer idea of, right, this is where I am today, but then it's just progress then, isn't it? Yeah. Right. If you look back in 6 months, it's like, well, I've actually spoke to 30% of the hiring managers at these different companies.

Yeah.

And then you just keep making progress, and then slowly over time, they'll just be— hopefully, no, most part, nearly everyone.

Yeah, definitely. And it's very tempting to, like, think you've mapped your market fully and start moving on to a different area because it feels like you've done it. But actually, you want to— if you've mapped it, then you want to kind of follow up with everybody and make sure that you're keeping in touch with them and doing everything you can around the companies in your core market and your niche instead of trying to do everyone in Salesforce, because that's impossible and it's so hard to stay specific when you're doing that.

So what would be your, like, so we're approaching like 2 years for anyone in that. So you've really— look, there's going to be, there's gonna be challenging days, no doubt, but like, like we said earlier you at one point were struggling to see where— cliché— light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, I mean, you like had your contract book at a certain level, it went down, and we're struggling to really see like how the hell am I going to get it to where it was and more. Yeah, so like what would be your sort of parting advice really for someone that might be in that period right now? Because that's what— that's a big sort of passion of mine, if I'm honest, where you know, 5+ years ago, they wouldn't have been able to hear this conversation. They would have only maybe been limited to the conversation I had in the office, but everyone around them has maybe been doing it for 5+ years. Yeah, because I was that person. Everyone around me, by one person, had been doing it for ages. And sometimes, even though your manager can say till they're blue in the face, like, look, keep doing what you're doing, this is normal, it just doesn't quite sink in. It's like, it's easy for you to say, Jen, you've been doing the Salesforce market for 10 years, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So 100%, hopefully the reason why I ask you this is like, hopefully what this can do is hopefully offer some inspiration. There's some great strategies in there, but also just hopefully act as a bit of that light at the end of the tunnel for people. Actually, yeah, I'm here, but I know it's possible to turn it around. So like, what, what advice would you give them if you're in that, in that spot?

Yeah, this might be a bit cliché and stuff, but I think you just, you've got to be patient with it because Like you said, your managers will be saying, keep going, keep going with it. But you honestly could be having a really quiet week and then you just do one call and it changes everything. And you, or you just do, you just send out that one extra email and then you get someone coming back to you and then that changes everything. So, you have just got to keep going with it, but make sure you're not just kind of shooting in the dark and you're being, make sure you are being strategic about where you think the wins are going to get— are going to come from. And don't just waste your time on a company that's got one contractor on one day a week. Make sure you find the companies that are worth targeting, spend your time on them, um, and just, yeah, like, keep going. Because it— for me, it, like, felt like it was never going to come, and then it did come, and then it just— yeah, it's been like— obviously it's not fully uphill since then, like, it's been ups and downs, but In my head, I think the wins will just come if you work hard, and yeah, you just got to keep going because it's so worth it. Like, it can literally change your life, and so quickly. And yeah, I don't know if that's enough inspo because it is just from kind of working hard, but I'd say yeah.

Yeah, keep doing what you're doing. If you feel like you're— maybe your plan, and we've spoken about this, knee strategy isn't quite there, ask for help. Yeah, like you just said, don't just be shooting in the dark. You know, if you're early on, you might need a bit of help with So if you don't feel like you're getting that help, turn to your manager and people around you and ask those things. Yeah, but make sure you're doing that one extra call, that one extra spec call, whatever. Yeah, because that could literally change the trajectory of your career, of your desk. Yeah, and just know if you do hopefully keep doing these things and you're not shooting in the dark, that it will pay off and it's worth it, as you said.

Exactly, and like, you might have doubts that you think it's not for you, like, I definitely thought like, oh, maybe I'm actually just not cut out for it and it's not right for me. But like, I was successful at the beginning and then I've had my dip, so I can do it. I know I can do it. So as long as you kind of have had those wins and you can see how you got those wins before, you've just got to kind of stay focused on that. And yeah, ask for help. Like, that's like the most, the biggest advice I could give as well.

I love it.

Yeah.

Jenny, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for joining me.

Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. And yeah, it's been amazing.

Thank you.