3 Creative BD Approaches Every Recruiter Needs to Know with Lizzie Formisano

Lizzie, welcome to the pod.

Thank you, thanks for having me.

Obviously we've known each other for actually fairly long time now. Obviously I knew you from when you worked at Prime, and like that's been what, at least 3 years or so? Yeah, so, um, yeah, so really looking forward to breaking down a few different things really. One, some of the things that I know your colleagues, peers would say you're great at. When it comes to outreach, business development, having creative different approaches to that. We're going to talk about something that I know you even ended up taking a job on— personal branding— because you believed in it that much. Oh yeah, right?

Oh yeah.

So I know I'm a huge believer on that, um, you are as well. So we're going to talk a bit about personal branding, video outreach, um, then also obviously you're now part of the Zest team. We've had a number of people from Zest on here, and for For those of you that haven't listened, Callum and his business is all about experience, like huge advocate of using the Net Promoter Score system to measure the impact and the experience that you and the team are having. So we're going to talk a bit about that and then just overall, like what your experiences have been, the positives that you've seen, the learnings that you've taken from really most of the time, bar at the start of your career working in like startup environments. And like the impact that you found. So a lot of things that we're going to cover, but I guess just to give everyone a bit of, uh, background in terms of career journey— so let me know if I get any of this wrong, by the way. Um, so started in recruitment, had a bit of a full start really.

Oh yeah, it was a pretty rough start to my recruitment career, but persevered.

So I got here double redundancy. Double redundancy.

Got the double, got the double, got the double.

And to start, and then had a really solid stint at Prime. Obviously we've had Neil, Nicole, and Carl from Prime on this podcast, and I know that you built a really solid reputation there placing entry-level grads into SaaS companies into sales roles. So did that for a certain amount of time, then joined a business called Cloud and joined Amelia Sordell. Um, which I feel like anyone on LinkedIn at some point might have come across her content. So we're talking to CEOs about personal branding services.

Yeah.

And then found yourself at Zest, joined when it was 3 people, and now you're just doing experience hires, commercial for go-to-market teams. And a lot of the stuff now as well, as you're in 360, is like 90% retained, which has also been different for you. Some contingent exclusive in there, and also recently moved your life to Berlin.

I did.

Obviously not permanently, but you're currently— if someone said, oh, where you living at the moment, you'd say Berlin?

Yeah, absolutely. International.

Um, love it. So yeah, loads to cover here. I thought let's just start with the things that I think people love to learn about on this podcast. We've got 3 creative approaches to BD that you've been using that you've been getting a good return on. So let's just start with the top one here that we prepared for and discussed, which was personalization meets relevance. Yeah, what do we mean by that? Let's just talk a bit about that.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and this, to be honest, this can probably be relevant for cold calls, emails, and videos. Email is probably the most creative approach you can take to it, really. But personalization meets relevance is the whole idea that I think when you're doing business development, relevance is the most important thing. If you're reaching out to someone and it's not relevant to them, why on earth would they come back to you? So I think as long as it's relevant and you've got a reason to reach out, then, then you're, you're within your, you're within your means to get in touch with that person and you've got something to add. The reason I say personalization meets relevance is because I would like to think I'm a relatively creative person, and I think that if you can add that extra layer of personalization, and that can be anything really that you found in your research that you think would resonate with that person if you can weave that into your relevant approach, then I think you'll see a heap of results.

Uh, yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, because I feel like— and we spoke about this when we did the, the like source our webinar, didn't we? But I think where people— you tell me what you think— but I think where people go wrong with this type of stuff is like they just go hell for leather on the personalization, don't they? So it's like, Lizzie saw that you went to this school et cetera, et cetera, and they just really lean into that. But I think the bit that is a skill that I think the best people get great at is connecting the dots on the relevancy piece.

Exactly.

I don't know if you agree with that, but—

Exactly, I think that 100%. So, you know, someone could reach out to me and just be like, hey Lizzy, went to— so you went to the University of Birmingham, and then just tell me something completely unrelated to University of Birmingham. And for me it just shows, okay, you've looked at my LinkedIn profile, but what on earth does that have to do with anything that you're trying to say? Um, I think the way to connect that is to try and connect something that you've researched to your relevant piece. So I think the example I used on that webinar that we did was football. And, you know, I would find out a prospect's football team. Usually it's pretty easy to find out, especially in sales when everyone's into football, everyone's competitive. Find out a prospect's football team and then you can create a relevant point about that. So for example, linking the pain of seeing your team lose on the weekend to the pain of, having, you know, the wrong person in your team, in your sales team. And I obviously do sales recruitment. So naturally you've already created a pain there. You've shown your personalization as well. So added a bit of humor, demonstrated research, and then you can go on with your point. And both points are married together and utilized well.

Yeah, and that's such a good example. And I think some of the results, which is pretty impressive, might have been from one of your Sourcewell campaigns, but like having this approach, being disciplined with this, has resulted in like 89% open rate, 52% reply rate.

Yeah.

And I think in today's AI world where everyone is being bombarded, I do think if you can get just this one bit right, it can really dramatically increase your chances of at least someone just willing to have a conversation with you. And you can tell me, but I feel like oftentimes that's all recruiters need really, is just that opportunity to have for someone to go, happy to have a chat, or how to jump on a call, because then that's when you can really get who you are across, how you're different. But hard to do that when these people just inundated with emails.

100%. I think that the biggest thing with, with this kind of approach is you have to cut through the noise. As you say, these people are getting bombarded, peppered with so many, so many emails. So if you can do anything that cuts through that noise and actually says something that resonates with them, you're going to be so much more likely to have a conversation, or alternatively just get quicker to know. Um, I think that's the other benefit of these approaches, that reply rate is so good because if you get a yes, they're open to have a chat, great, you can move on with that. If you get a no, try and find out why, but then you can quickly move on with other prospects that are going to be more likely to engage with you, going to be in a better time to have a conversation, might be recruiting right now. So I think any answer is better than just shouting into the void and not getting anything.

So curious then, because I do— I really agree with you and something something that I'm always trying to get better, better at in terms of how do I make this DM email feel relevant to that person. I do feel like that, that's a skill. I think how— if I'm listening to this, I understand that that's important. How do you think— what would be some of the, the first steps that you think could help someone develop that skill or get more consistent at connecting the dots? I don't know how you think about that or how you feel like you've got better at that. It might go beyond like looking at certain things in their profile and actually be steps before that in terms of understanding the challenges that these people have. Or I don't know, you can tell me, but I'd love to just hear your take before we get on to the second one. How do we really develop that skill of making sure our outreach is relevant?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it— I think once you've got it right the first time, it becomes a lot easier from there on because naturally the pains that we solve as recruiters doesn't tend to change unless maybe there's market changes or it's a certain time of year or whatnot. So I think understanding from a really early stage in your recruitment career, what pain am I actually solving? And the pain we solve as recruiters, it's not just, you know, this person's hiring, I will find them a candidate, I will place that candidate. It goes so much deeper than that because that, you've got to think about the issue of maybe that sales manager or that hiring manager not having this candidate in seats. It could be they're losing revenue because they're behind on their target. Someone's there not generating revenue and someone else has got to make that up. That has a knock-on effect of maybe the wider team are stressed out because they might have to pick up extra work. And what that then has a knock-on effect on is the culture. People are really stressed, people are unhappy at work because they're having to work harder because there's not someone in a whole seat doing a role. And that could lead to attrition, that could lead to just, yeah, people being unhappy at work and maybe performing less because they're not happy. So, the problem we solve as recruiters runs really, really deep. And I think that ultimately once you get that right from a really early stage, it's then really, easy to find out, okay, what are the triggers that I need to look out for that will help those problems? So, and once, once you've kind of got that right and those kind of pain points right, actually then finding the right triggers is the next point to make it relevant. And that could be a whole host of things. It could be quite literally, I've seen that you're hiring at the moment, they've posted a role, they've posted on LinkedIn, there's an advert out, there's clearly an immediate need there. It could be maybe they've Some— one I've been using recently is maybe they've recently hired someone. So that's great. As a recruiter, I'd love to find out how that process was, you know, how long did that take, how long was that roll out before they actually took that person on. And then there's that pain of, did the hiring manager have to take hours out of their usual day-to-day to help source for that person? So, um, it could be a recent hire, it could be funding— they've recently had funding, that usually means that there's going to be a trigger for change, there's going to be some sort of development or growth in their team. So that's another reason to get in touch. So there's a whole reasons and trigger points, I'd say, to why you're getting in touch. And then you can utilize your pain points and what you're trying to help solve through those triggers to, to kind of formulate a creative email or a creative cold call or video, for example.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's what I was hoping you'd say, because there is that first step, isn't there? So I feel like you can get that expertise by, one, experience doing the job, being willing to be curious find out what issues these people have beyond, I need this salesperson to do this job. I don't know if you agree with this, but obviously if you're listening to this and maybe you are early on in your career, maybe you're building that expertise, but I do feel like if you're on a good team, you have a good manager, your manager should be able to help you understand what those, like, what problems do we solve for our clients. If they struggle to answer that, yeah, I don't know how I feel about that.

You're in a bit of trouble.

Yeah, so I feel like you're, like, the experienced people should be able to help you actually understand. Like you said, the problems that we solve as recruiters goes deep, and it's like, yeah, committing to understanding what that looks like, what that feels like for the people that you speak to day in, day out. So I'm glad that you went, uh, went there. We got our next one then: show, don't tell. Tell us about this.

Show, don't tell. Yeah, absolutely. So it's so easy, I think, to tell people what you do, why you're great, why people should use you, why people should agree to meet with you. Um, so I think that— and that's probably what the majority of people are doing in the market. So I think naturally this whole thing is about cutting through the noise, it's about standing out, but also it's about showing value and giving that person a tangible reason to why they should meet rather than you just promising it over, over text maybe. So show, don't tell is all about using evidence or examples to, to prove to a prospect that there is a reason why they should meet with you. You are a person that they need to be speaking to, and there's so many different ways we can do that by going into it. But, but it— but ways I do it is, so for example, here at Zest, we use a video platform to, as part of our recruitment and screening process, to help clients determine whether they should meet a candidate rather than just a CV, particularly in sales when it's so personality-led, it's very culture-led. Um, so as part of my outreach, sometimes I'll almost use quite literally a snapshot of that video platform or a screenshot even, put that in an email and actually show them, highlight a pain they might be facing. For example, seeing a great CV, interviewing someone and realising just because they have a good CV, they're still not a good fit. So I take a screenshot of our platform, show it to the client and then, or show it to the prospect and then kind of use that as my email sequence. So they're already getting a bit of a teaser as to why they should meet or why or how I actually have a piece of tech that can help them, help them do their role or help them onboard someone quicker. It could be showing reviews from, from other clients in their space or people that they're connected with, even better, um, that are saying great things about us. So show, don't tell is all about, yeah, going that slightly extra mile of actually showing them something rather than just saying that you're great or telling them something.

Yeah, I think that's such a good principle because it's so easy to just in recruitment, I find, like, just have recruiters say that you'll do this or we can do this for you, and it's literally just relying on the other person to, like, believe you, basically.

Yeah.

And take your word for it. So I think whenever you can, and this is something I'm always trying to get better at with my outreach or my sales process, is making sure that we have evidence ultimately. And like you said, I really like that really simply show, don't tell. Um, and yeah, results here, for example, again, because I'm assuming you built these in your campaigns basically, which is why you've got 87% open rate, 37% reply rate, and one retainer secured from the first email. That's pretty cool, right? And I think the things to take away here is whenever you're saying we can do this, have you got something to then back that up, or a story, uh, from a client or an experience you can go in? This is what this company like yours experienced and the impact that would be able to make. I do think that's, that's such a, a great principle. I don't know how you feel about this because I think oftentimes a blocker on this for people can be, I don't have anything to show anyone yet. My often advice to that, but you can share yours, is if you joined a company, they should have some sort of track record unless it's like day one startup. So my advice always is there's nothing wrong with you showing what your team have done, or what your manager has done, or what your company has done, and then you can work towards hopefully having your own. But there's nothing wrong with leveraging, this is what we've done as a company for X prospects like you, is how I would probably overcome that. But I think that can sometimes be a bit of a cop-out when people hear stuff like this, like, well, what'd you do when you don't have any testimonials, or you're just starting out? That sort of would be my response, I feel like.

Yeah, absolutely. And I completely agree. And I think the most important thing is to try to have data or some sort of tangible resource that you can use for that. So for example, you know, when I first joined Zest, we're so fortunate that we collect a lot of NPS data. We get feedback from every client, every candidate that we work with. They get sent a survey straight away as soon as they've been in process with us. So it meant when I joined, we did have some feedback that we could use. And then, um, and I think a really good tactic from that is to anyone that we your company's worked at, um, find the exact person, the hiring manager that you've worked with, go through their connections, see if there's anyone relevant in their network that you can use, and then reach out to them with, with the feedback that they've got and just say, we saw you were connected to X, we've just helped Y, here's a quick review of what their experience was like working with us. Exactly, exactly.

Love that. Show, don't tell. Innovative candidate specing. What we doing here?

What are we doing here? That's a big question.

But, um, well, yeah, I think so.

Candidate specing is obviously been used in recruitment historically forever, um, and it's a fantastic way of getting in conversation because it's, it's essentially a lead generation tactic. You, you've come in, you've come to a potential client with your product already, a reason for them to speak to you. So candidate speccing is great. I think what people can do is go that one step further though, because naturally, as you say, every hiring manager is going to be probably receiving heaps of candidate specs, and often it's just huge blocks of text. And it kind of goes down to what I was saying before about the video platform that we use. Sometimes people can have great CVs, great experiences, but how does a client know that that person is a good fit before speaking to them? So I think going that extra step further and actually utilizing video in candidate speccing is, is really— is going to be a way to cut through the noise there. And also, if you've found a really good candidate, naturally you're going to be putting time into them anyway. You're going to be having conversations with them, wanting to keep them engaged, wanting to see they're at and hopefully trying to place them one day. So there's no reason to not spend an extra 5 minutes hopping on a call with them and just recording a quick video with them. And so something like a snapshot of just asking them, great, John, tell me a bit about your experience, talk me through some of your achievements, and just get them to give a bit of a reel of why they're a great candidate. So this video is actually of that, of the candidate, not a video of you talking through that experience, which also you could do, but Yeah, you could do that 100%, but I think even better, show them the candidate, show them there and then, give them a snapshot of that person, um, almost in an interview setting, um, of that. And that's actually something we do at Zest. So that's a really good way for us firstly to actually show our process to the, um, to the potential client, but also that client then receives an email, actually sees a snapshot of a candidate, a really solid candidate, um, and they'll be so much more inclined to reply because they've— you've shown that you've put a little bit of extra time into, into reaching out to that person. It feels a lot more personalized and relevant. Um, but also what it's done for me in the past as well is actually get some immediate feedback from prospects. They've replied with, love this approach, actually really like this candidate because of X, might not be right with— for us because of Y. Um, and then you've straight away, you've kind of got a bit of an insight into what they look for, a bit of a candidate brief there. Um, and it gives you a bit more leverage to then reach out again with if you find someone who's actually solved some of the issues the other person had. So I just think it's a really good way to first cut through the noise, be a little bit different, but also give the prospect something tangible that they can see rather than just got this candidate, smashed all their targets, they're amazing, please speak to them.

Yeah, I think that's really cool. Obviously may not work in every market, but you can only share what's worked for you in your market. But I think, yeah, I think again, like, just be open-minded about how you can— yeah, like you said, when you show up in that prospect's inbox, how can we create a bit of a different experience? Or in this case particularly in your environment, if I learn about this person and then I also get to learn what they're like personally in the same email, that is pretty cool to see how they come across, how they communicate with you. That is, that is pretty cool. So I love that idea. That's pretty cool. Let's get on to what I think— I mean, we're talking about here, so let's get on to— let's chat video outreach, and then we can go into personal branding. How often are you using We just spoke about that, but like, how often are you using video outreach? And like, what— how would you define video outreach? Are we talking about when we're reaching out to like a target client, part of maybe your process might be you might send them like a personalized video? Is that what we're talking about?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Talk to us about this, like how often are you using at the moment?

Yeah, definitely. I think, I suppose the big challenge with video outreach is that it's time-consuming, right? So naturally, um, what you don't want to be doing is spending hours and hours making all these videos shouting into the void. No one's opening, no one's looking at them. You've just, you've just spent all that time on, on that. So, um, so I think that there's something to be careful there. So typically I would only use video outreach if I'm seeing that my emails are being opened consistently, um, that there's a bit of interest there because some— or maybe someone's opened my email multiple times, so you've seen that they've not deleted it, so that's always a good sign. And there's a bit of a reason. Or if someone's connected with you on LinkedIn, because I think there's are just a higher chance of them seeing it if you send it on a LinkedIn message versus an email, um, really. So, so those are probably the two instances I would use. And yeah, certainly I would— so I usually wouldn't use it as the first part of a, of a sequence really for reaching out to a prospect, because as you say, you might spend a long time on it and then yeah, they, they never open it, never come back to you, and it's time wasted really.

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And what's like a thought process on— let's just say I'm not— I, I don't mind doing this, it wouldn't be maybe like my go-to, I'm okay in front of the camera, maybe I'm a bit awkward, but what, what's like— do you have a bit of like a framework that you follow, or like just a bit of a process that you would follow if I was to watch your videos? That might just be like, not like a script, but like just, you'll normally start in this way, you'll mention this. How do you normally approach it?

Yeah, absolutely. And to be honest, I think this framework can be used for emails as well. And almost, I think sometimes if you want to really save time, you can almost say what you would say on a cold call or on an email in a video, and it just adds that extra bit of personality, a little bit of difference to cut through the noise. But, um, framework-wise, so starts with that word we love, relevance, really. So a trigger is probably the first thing I would look for. So a reason why you're reaching out. So it could be something like, hey Hishem, seen that you're hiring at the moment, or seen that you've just posted this role, seen that you've just hired this person. So any sort of trigger for getting in touch. I would then, after the trigger, launch into a pain point. So it could be something like other hiring managers, just speaking to other hiring managers in your space, they're facing this pain. So, you know, they are really frustrated with spending hours interviewing candidates who look great on paper but just don't live up to it in reality when they actually agree to interview them. So some sort of pain. Then I would do a little bit of a tease. So I wouldn't completely then pitch your whole process or pitch why you're great. You could say something like, here at Zest, we solved that issue through X, or actually—

Show, don't tell.

Show, don't tell. Exactly. So something very, very brief, very Don't give away too much, I would say, because you need to give them a reason to speak with you. So it could be maybe reference someone they're connected with that you've worked with, reference a very similar company in the space that you've just solved that problem for. So some sort of tease, um, there. And then just a light call to action, really. So something like, if that sounds interesting, like, let me know and we can have a chat, or worth exploring this further, would you be opposed to a quick conversation about it? And that is all I would do really, quick, 30 seconds, absolute maximum 60 seconds, but I would try to keep it as short and snappy as possible.

Nice, and is it better, have you found just from the feedback that you get, response, is it better if it's not perfect and if it's, do you know what I mean? I feel like sometimes I'm guilty of that as well where it's like, fuck, let me redo it again 'cause I said, I fumbled this, but actually I think I've often seen things or read things online but that there's nothing wrong with that. And also it just makes it like human, authentic, doesn't it?

Yeah, 100%. And I think that, that in itself, firstly, it will save you time from re-recording the video 50 million times until it's absolutely perfect and you've smashed it. But, um, be 100%. Ultimately, the purpose of a video really is to show you as a person, and what people don't want to see is a robot, um, who's just perfectly speaking. I think the imperfections are great because they show your personality, they show that you're real, they show you're not an AI-generated person just reading reading off a script. So yeah, I 100% think it's better to just get it done, get it out, um, don't spend too much on it, don't think about it too much, just get it sent.

Yeah, that's, that's a really helpful framework. Someone told me about a tool this week that— and they do your market, so I'll make sure you're aware of it. But obviously there's a tool for everything. Yeah, AI for like everything. But he told me, um, I can't remember what it's called. I feel like it's called like Sparkwise or something. That might be wrong. I'll make sure I put it in the show notes if if anyone is interested. But basically with this tool you can do your like video outreach, and then basically you say the word watermelon, which sounds random, but like then AI will then be able to make it personalized to everyone that sends it to. Oh, does that make sense?

Okay.

So because normally you might have to go, hi Lizzy, hi Hishem, fine, because you'd have to do that each time. But obviously they're solving that problem of like you might have your framework and what you say, you say it to you send it to a specific group of people that fit the types of people that you want it to be sent to. And then using their tool, you say, hi, Watermelon, it would fill in their name. That's pretty cool.

I haven't used it, but you're gonna be out of a job soon because this is, this is getting crazy.

Yeah, but you told me about it and it's like, oh yeah, we've been using this, been getting some good success from it. I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting. I had to look at it. So I'll put it in the show notes because it's like relevant here. Yeah, but I had a look at it, sounds quite cool. Um, Personal branding, I feel like it's become a bit of a meme. Like, how do you, how do you, how do you feel about— I mean, you was selling this, I was training recruiters on it, uh, you were selling it as services to CEOs. Like, how do we, how do we feel about personal branding at the moment?

How do we feel? That's such a good question. You're so right, I think it has been a bit of a meme. And, um, how do we feel? I think it's, it's one of those things where I will always be an advocate for it. Um, in terms of— I just think it's really good to not be the best kept secret. So I think if you have things to shout about, if you have things to celebrate, if you have knowledge and insights and value to share, why not share it? And, and especially working— we'll probably get into this later— but especially working for me historically, startups, smaller organizations that might not necessarily have the branding tools out there, might not be the best names or the best known names even in the industry. Um, I think being able to, as an individual, try and contribute to building that brand and try to build a bit of a base for yourself is super important. And because more so because you never know who's gonna see your content and you never know what potential lead you can get, what potential positive outcome you can get from it. So I'm always a big advocate of putting yourself out there because you just never know. But you're right, it has been a bit of a meme and I think I think that the challenge is trying to keep it personal is, is the most important thing because I think so many people can get down that road of falling maybe too far down where it's, I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a real person on the other side of it. So there's a balance there, but I just think have fun is the most important thing and, and add value, um, and you never know what can come from it. And it's a great employer brand as well. I mean, people want to work for companies that look like they're having loads of fun, that are putting things out there, that are celebrating wins, that are sharing value. Um, so I think there's so many positive elements to it, but you're absolutely right, I think, um, you've got to take it with a bit of a pinch of salt.

Yeah, I think you can tell me what you think about this, but like, I feel like there's like a new sort of dynamic to it which makes people even more fearful. I'm just gonna be really honest here, but I feel like now, if you think about when you was using it in Prime, because when you was at Prime, because you was using it consistently then as well in your own way. But I think now the lines of like personal and professional are so blended.

Yes. Yeah.

So I do think now there's, there's this extra layer of like, I don't want to be that person that puts selfies up or does this, because I know when I see those posts, I'm like it gives me the ick. Or like, I don't— like, I know how I feel when I see it. I don't want to be that person that other people see their content and go, what, what is Lizzie doing?

Like, I'm just gonna delete all myself.

Yeah, obviously. But what I mean, as in the thing that I know people always comment on is like, you might just put a random selfie on and then just talk about something completely random, uh, to it. And then also just, I don't know, you could do anything. Like, now it's definitely a bit of a meme, like running, like, yourself is watching running, like, doing that, or like, I don't know, people have things to say, right?

Yeah.

So I do think there's this extra layer now where if you think when you was sharing content at prime, there's probably less of that on the newsfeed. So I know, I just know people fearful anyway of like how other people in their network and engage view it. They don't want to end up in that like bucket almost, I feel like, which is fair and I get. But what I always try and communicate to people is like, just because you feel like the algorithm, whatever that means, is encouraging that. They always get those engagement. Oh, the only way I can get engagement is by doing that. I don't believe that's the case. You can have your own way of doing it. Like, that isn't really my style. I'll just— I just really try and focus on talking about things that's beneficial for the person reading it. That's what I just try and focus on.

Yeah.

So I do think that's an extra layer. But what have you— because you've— you probably still speak to people now What have you found to be the most common, like, blocker for people when it comes to investing in my personal brand, sharing more content? What have you found it to be?

Yeah, I think it's exactly as you said. It's the fear of doing it. It's the fear of putting yourself out there and, um, and having to, yeah, I guess share, share more than— it kind of goes— it feels like almost out of the job spec of your role a little bit, posting on LinkedIn. So it's kind of that fear of having to do something that you probably could get away with not doing, so why would you do it? Um, and also it's just having to think about what to actually post. It's, as you say, you know, I could just post pictures of me running and leave it at that really, but what value is that adding? So it's, it's actually having to think about what, what should I be posting to actually add value? And I think on that point you were just saying, um, there about, um, people posting— people might be fearful of what other people think of them, or being like getting the ick or whatever. I think it totally depends on what market you're reaching out to, because absolutely, if you're, if you're selling into a particular market that is absolutely not going to care about your 5K PB and all the selfies that you can take, naturally that there probably isn't so much of a reason for you to do that. You, you should focus your posts maybe on market insights and market news and things that you found in for similar hiring managers, any challenges that they're facing and what they're doing to solve them. So I think that you've got to think about your audience. I think personal branding all starts with thinking about your audience and what are you actually trying to achieve from building a personal brand. Um, so yeah, so I think think about the audience and then— but yeah, the blockers could be thinking about— and then that will sort of help with the blocker of being unsure about what to post. Because if you know, if you know your audience, then you can think about, okay, what kinds of content would they want to see? What would they find value in? You can then create your personal brand and your content around that, really. So I think it all starts from actually understanding who are you trying to reach out to and reach, and what are you actually trying to do with your personal brand? So I think those are the things really.

But certainly, no, agreed. I think the easiest way to try and get into this mindset is just reflect like each week on things like, what was 3 bits of common advice that I gave to candidates this week? Or what was 3 like, um, like talking tracks that I heard from 3 different hiring managers this week? Like, whenever I really struggle with content, I go to my diary and look at my meetings and the meetings that I've had, because then I'm getting into like the conversations that I've had and the things that were discussed. And the things that— what recruiters need to remember is that you will speak to way more hiring managers than hiring managers speak to other hiring managers, and likewise for like the candidates that you speak to. So the value that you can offer is bringing to life the things that these people care about to the masses almost, and sharing it. Final point on this, I'm— I really believe this. I don't know what you think, but I actually think the biggest benefit to doing this is investing in your personal brand. Although the courses will tell you it's about getting inbound leads, right? Like, do my personal branding course, you'll get all these leads or whatever. Of course that can happen. However, for me, the main benefit is it just gives you different trigger points to start a conversation. So for me, the best trigger points— if you're doing a good job on the content front, you should have more people in your Marketplace that fit your ideal client candidate profile viewing your, viewing your LinkedIn profile. Yeah, that's the first trigger point. So anyone that views your profile, because you're doing content, you're going to get more views on your profile. The trigger is, hey Lizzie, no, she's checked out my profile. Normally it's for one of three reasons, or like just whatever you want to use, start a conversation. The second thing is if you're writing content, then you can then reach out to people that engage with that. Hey Lizzy, notice you like— really appreciate you all commenting on my post. Interested in what you think of it, like whatever, just starting a conversation. So it's just being able to have different trigger points. And then if you want to use content in your approach, it's— then we might have covered this in the, um, webinar, but then it's using content to be like, hey Lizzy, saw this and thought of you, like, and then using it in that way to start a conversation. But if you get the personal branding thing right you'll then reach out to people and go, you know what, Lizzy, you really enjoyed your content, um, and you built that trust and credibility there before you then drop them a note. Yeah, that's the power, I think, personally, versus just sitting there and waiting for the leads to come in.

Exactly. If I had leads come in every time I posted, then that— I'm, I'm living in a dream, really. And it doesn't happen. Um, and you're absolutely right, I think. And certainly, I think from a recruitment standpoint, you probably get a lot more successful on the candidate side of things with posting on LinkedIn, because you start to build your network of candidates. Then people within their network start to see your content, and they'll connect because you're in the same space, and they might— you might be able to help in future. So I think from a candidate standpoint, actually, I've seen it as a pretty good lead generation tool. But no, you're absolutely right. I think you have to— with building a personal brand, you have to have proactivity behind it, because if you're getting lots of people viewing your profile, liking your content, um, and you're not doing anything with that, then as you say, what, what's sort of the point of doing it? So yeah, it's a good trigger point to use to kind of delve into that further.

Love that. Let's get into something that I know Callum loves talking about— experience. Candidate experience, but just overall experience. How have you— what have you found to be like the personal impact as a recruiter building your reputation in this more experienced market, building your desk of like being laser focused on experience? Because obviously I'm sure it's something that Prime advocated for, but obviously Callum has really tried to make that like at the center of his business. There's metrics that he shouts about. So what have you personally found to be just the benefit to you? Like, what— I'd just be interested to hear that.

Yeah, absolutely. And candidate experience, as much as it is— it's lovely to hear lovely feedback from people, it's, it's great, and it helps with the, your, your brand as a whole, as especially as a new recruitment agency, have delivering a good experience. But ultimately it's a business development tool as well. I think that's the, the real key thing there with, with both candidate and client experience actually. It's, it's a tool that you can then use because naturally if you deliver a phenomenal experience to a candidate, they are really happy with the process regardless of what happens. If they get the role in the end, if they don't they, they're going to be a great tool for you because, you know, I've had candidates that I've never placed and they talk to me all the time because they had such a great experience with me. They're referring me their friends. Good people know good people, so that's a whole other channel to get more candidates. Um, one of my biggest clients actually came from a candidate I never placed. He just had a really good experience with me, joined another company, referred me into the business after, after he joined, and I've been working with them exclusively for years now. So it's a, it's a massive business development tool. So delivering candidate experiences just to see lots of flowery, lovely reviews. And as much as that's great, but it has genuine tangible benefits of that. So I think the main points are generating more referrals, both on the candidate side and on the client side of things. Um, and yeah, and also you never know in future, that candidate might want to change jobs in future. They might want some insights. And if you've delivered a good experience to that person, you'll be the first person that they come to. So you straight away have dibs on a great candidate that you you can hopefully place into a new role.

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And it's definitely— I don't know if you found this— like, it's a differentiator. Yeah, like the way that Callum's baked it into Zest, the business approach. You operate mainly in the UK market, which is highly saturated. We're talking about before we started, it's very competitive. Oftentimes I'll speak to recruiters and they're trying to figure out how can we be different. This, this is one of the ways that you can be different. I was going to share with you, just answered it there, but I was going to ask you like, do you agree with the statement that oftentimes your best referrals or your best champions can be people that didn't get the actual end outcome that obviously you were both hoping to get? Like, is that like a fair statement? Has that played out a lot for you?

So much so. And I think sometimes even, I think you just have to be so gracious in defeat sometimes in recruitment. We, yeah, we have to face, we face a lot. And I think the, the more gracious you can be and the more positive and supportive you can be, it pays dividends down the line. As I said, one of my biggest clients I've had has come from someone I never placed, and almost to the point where it was probably a good thing that I never placed him because actually it's led me to huge amounts more opportunity, um, since then. Um, and that same person has referred me heaps of other candidates who have been really, really strong. So I think that sometimes if, if something hasn't necessarily worked out right now, you've got to think about the long-term picture and the bigger picture of what you can actually drive from that. So And yeah, I sometimes when I don't place someone and they've had a great experience, I'm almost like, well, I'm just gonna wait and see what happens with this one too, because anything can happen.

What, um, there'll be so many things that contribute to someone going, I had a great experience with Lizzie. But what, I don't know if there's gonna be one thing, but like, if you was to, if you was to decide like, right, I, every single experience recruitment process that I run I always do these like 1 to 3 things that you think contribute the most to someone going, you know what, I'm an advocate for Lizzie because of this. What do you think those things are? Because again, it might be things that we already know gets overlooked, people get complacent with, but just curious to hear what you think are some of the things that really contribute to that positive experience.

Yeah, definitely. I'm going to kind of flip it a little bit because I, I think it actually starts on the client side. Okay, yeah, I think that a great candidate experience starts with your client management. So for example, if a client comes to me with a role that they, they need filling, the first thing I would always want to do is set expectations with that client on what— not on what I need from them, essentially. So I think so many people can fall into that trap of, yes, I've got a role, great, what are you looking for, do the, do the candidate brief, get the interview process down, and then great, go out and find the right candidate and hope for the best there. Um, I would always go that extra step further and ask that client for some— or give that client some expectations of what I need from them to deliver a good experience. And that could be things like, okay, great, so what I need from you is really quick candidate feedback. I need in-detail candidate feedback as well, things that I can actually utilize. Um, yeah, just, just any information I can I need your interview process, but also if, is there a chance that process can change during, during the time that a candidate's in process with you? What would trigger that change? For example, if you're not 100% sure a candidate at final stage, is there a chance you'd want them to meet an extra person? So, I would try to discover any factors that might lead to a candidate having a potentially, not necessarily poor experience, but any sort of bumps in their experience. So that's the first thing. It starts with client management and setting expectations really clear, because what that then does for the second part is allows you to give the candidate expectations. And I think that is such a strong way to start a good candidate partnership, um, because you're telling them exactly, great, this is exactly how the process is going to run, here are the timelines of that, I'm going to make sure I give you feedback at every stage, the typical timelines for feedback is X, Y, and Z. So you're immediately setting out expectations, but you're also giving yourself a little bit a buffer there because you can say, I've also discussed with the candidate, is a potential this could happen. Hopefully not though. This is what it's going to go. So because I think that's the thinking about it from a candidate point of view, I think the biggest frustrations candidates can sometimes face is just not knowing what's going on. Obviously, you as the recruiter, you've got all the information, you're speaking to all the people who are involved in the process. The candidate only knows one side of that. So if you're trying to— if you get them as weaved in and clued up as possible, then they're immediately going to be bought in. They're going to have a much stronger partnership with you and, yeah, and ultimately just have a better relationship going through that process. So client management, relay that to the candidate, and then simply do what you said you're going to do, really. So keep the candidate updated. We're really keen on, at Zest, sort of over-communicating, I think, is super important, and just ultimately being really honest with candidates. So let's say you haven't got the feedback at the time you, you've agreed that you would probably get it, or maybe things are taking a little bit longer, just simply telling the candidate that and remembering them and come going to them and saying, hey, haven't forgotten you, this is where I'm at with this, um, hopefully these are the timelines where hopefully I can have an update for you, um, they'll just be so pleased with you at least communicating with them because I think the worst thing is you going cold, you not having answers and you just not telling the candidate and they're feeling a little bit lost. You as a recruiter might be speaking to 50 people in a day, but that candidate might only hopefully be just speaking to you. So you've got to treat them as, as, as a, as a person really, and giving them the information that they need.

Yeah, I love that you took that to the client piece. I think you're completely right. It's got to start there to have the best chance of actually delivering a really positive candidate experience. Um, have you found— just curious— have you found it's— this has also held clients accountable because they know, like, this is, this is data that we're going to be gathering, right? So if you set expectations and the client doesn't meet those expectations, it's going to show up. And that's something to be— again, show, don't tell. We're going to show— we're going to be able to show them that we didn't deliver a great experience here. This is how people felt that you communicated with them. And stuff like that. So if you also found working this way, it being part of what Zest offers, also holds clients, hiring managers, to a higher standard as well, because they're going to be held accountable.

100%. And I think people are really— people are less likely to go back on their word if they've promised you something. If they've agreed to a certain process, it's, it's less likely that they'll do something completely different because it's come out of their mouth, it's been agreed. You can even put that in writing in an email once you've kind of got the candidate brief and you're kicking off the search and sending your first update. So it does hold them accountable. But also, I think it creates stronger, stickier relationships with your clients because you're being super transparent. It's all, it's all to do with sort of over-communicating. So I think, yeah, it helps them, it holds them accountable, it creates a really strong partnership because everyone's on the same page, everyone's working towards a common goal. Because ultimately, we, we— you want to be working in partnership with your clients. It's not a kind of order-taking industry. That's certainly not one you, you a position you would want to be in as a recruiter. You want to be working alongside them to a common goal, finding the right person for them. So yeah, I think it just creates a really strong partnership.

Yeah, I love that. So what have, what have you found to be, from your perspective, like, what have you found to be the things that you've benefited most from by taking this career path of working environments of like startup, earlier stage companies, smaller teams? I don't know, I don't know if you've reflected on this, but like, how do you— yeah, what are some of the main benefits you think you've, you've personally benefited from, from going down this path of working in like smaller ground teams, startups? Just curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, definitely. It's— I mean, firstly, it's super exciting, I think, especially— and I think the most important thing, especially anyone thinking about joining a smaller business or a startup, is 100% really aim and strive to join one that you're value-aligned to because ultimately joining a smaller business, it is gonna be tough. You might not have a big name out there, but the excitement of being able to build that and really have a tangible impact on that from day one is very exciting, and that's made even more exciting if you are genuinely bought into the vision of that business and genuinely, yeah, genuinely want to grow with them. So I think that's the first thing, it's being bought into the vision, but in terms of benefits for me, it's that excitement of growing something where you're incredibly value-aligned. I think that's just an intrinsic excitement. It keeps you motivated. On a more tangible level, being able to have exposure to such a huge amount of the business, working really closely with founders who are super experienced, have so much knowledge to share from you. I think it develops you as a recruiter really early on because you're privy to really high-level conversations that your founder might be having on the phone next to you. You're really learning from the, from the top straight away. So I think development piece is, is so, it's so good. And, um, and also on a personal level, the progression. I, I think joining a small company, you have the opportunity to progress incredibly quickly, and there aren't— there isn't much red tape or as many barriers to overcome to get that. At Prime, I went from a resource doing 180 recruitment to a billing manager managing 4 people 3 resources and an SDR in under 2 years, I think a year and a half actually. So, um, and that was 4 promotions I achieved there. So that excitement, that quick-moving progression to get you to a position in a senior leadership team, having, having a seat at the table so early on, so young in your career, um, it's so much more unlikely to get that at a larger organization. So I think, yeah, joining a small startup has given me such a heap of opportunity really to get to that level very quickly.

Yeah, I love that. I do think there's something to be said. Obviously you can build a successful career, like obviously a big part of it is it being the right environment. That could be like a big well-established company, it could be a startup. But for me, what has rung true in my journey is there's just something really good about when you work in the sales environment and you're hitting your target, like you just feel that direct impact more. I feel like 100% You also have the reverse, like when we're not hitting target, it's fucking hard because there's nowhere to hide. Yeah, no, less places to hide. But like, that's what I really liked of when I worked in the recruitment business. There's like 8 of us and like, I don't know, that's what I really liked. And then like you said, which you've obviously benefited from, the amount that you've learned, the direct access to the great people that you've worked with, worked under, whatever. And like you said, also like opportunities, like the fact now as well, I think, could you, if you're in a part of like a well-oiled machine, just be like, hey, um, I've got this opportunity to live in Berlin for a while? Is that possible? Maybe. But I do feel like when you're in environments where you've maybe got that extra level of trust, yes, like you maybe feel like, you know what, I don't know, maybe feel like just treated more like an adult, maybe. I don't know, like there's obviously pros and cons. Cons, right? But I do think there's like a lot of benefits to be had if it's right for you and it matches up with your values that you can really experience joining like a, a business on a journey, I think.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, I think that's the thing, the experience that you get is great. Also, it gives you the opportunity to actually have a say in, in the business. So, you know, being a small startup, usually the founders or leadership are much more open to change. They're open to hearing your input and hearing your ideas. So if you're seeing something in the market and you see an opportunity actually to help propel the business, even fairly new into the business, you probably already have a seat at the table because you can just say, hey, I think we need this, or I've just noticed this, let's implement it. At Prime, for example, when I joined, we didn't have sort of a fully business development, SDR-type route. Implemented that just because we felt, I felt that we needed it, and it's been doing successfully. The exact same has happened at Zest, really. So I think, yeah, just being able to kind of come with ideas and actually have them implemented is an opportunity that you might not get at maybe a larger organization that's been performing really well. It's well-oiled, it's established. Why would they change something that's already working?

I love it. Well, it has been an absolute pleasure. Excited to see, you know, where you are in another couple of years' time. But thanks so much for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me.