3 Founders, 3 Offices, £5M Revenue: Lessons on Diversification & Global Growth with Taylor Nathaniel

Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to quickly shine a light on the 3 partners who are behind the mission of the podcast this year. First up, we have Atlas. This isn't just another CRM with AI added on as an afterthought. Atlas 2.0 is the first platform in our space built with AI from the ground up and at its core. Next up, we have our longtime partner Sourcewell. You may know them as a world-class outbound sequencing tool, but they fully evolved into a multi-modular system. And the best part is you can plug and play their tools from the AI note-taker to the inbox agent, all without ripping out your entire tech stack. And finally, Raise. They remain the most powerful way to fund and run your contract book if you want to unlock cash flow and scale your agency with total confidence. You have to check them out. So if you go to the link in the description below, you're going to be able to get access to exclusive offers to all three of our partners this year. Let's get into this week's episode. Taylor, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, mate. Glad to be here.

Lovely to meet you. We've, uh, over the years I feel like we've exchanged messages. I've seen your guys' story from afar, so really looking forward to getting into the last, like, 5 and a bit years.

Yep.

Of this business journey. So our goal here really is to try and unpack what the important lessons have been on this journey with CLM and also the things you've had to learn the hard way.

Yep.

As well, because I think there's some really cool things in here that you guys have done, like open up the Morocco part of the business.

Yeah.

We, uh, also don't just operate from the UK, we're also operating in the— from the US as well. And, uh, I think that's just become more and more— I'm sure you've seen that more and more recruitment companies want to open in the US, or that's part of the business plan. So I think there's loads here that people can learn from. So to give everyone a bit of context on this journey, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but, uh, you started your recruitment career at Chapman Black.

Yep.

So that's also— did you meet all your business partners there?

Yeah. So Callum hired me, I was his first hire, and then a couple of years down the line, Jack was part of my team.

Nice. So typical journey, 5 years there, I got top biller here 3 times. Yeah, ended up leading 15 consultants. So on that typical journey of progressing your career, climbing the ranks, and then when that business went out of business, you also found out you're going to be a dad, as we were talking about before. And I know you said that it's probably maybe been something that you've thought about, but when you've got a good thing going, becomes less important, right? So, uh, this became a bit of a moment where actually, uh, 2020 was an opportunity for you guys to actually take that leap. Um, and we're gonna unpack the last 5, 6 years.

Yeah, let's do it.

So I think where I wanted to, to start was We're speaking about it before. I think there's pros and cons to starting a recruitment business on your own, and the same to having co-founders. So obviously you met who you started this business with through work. Yeah, that normally tends to be the, the case.

Yeah.

So definitely just curious to hear like your sort of thoughts on— it might have been in that earlier period, it's like, right, let's just make this work, let's just give this a go. But if I was to speak to 3 of you when we were starting out, do you think from the beginning you would have all answered the same question if I said like, what is it that you guys want for the business? Was that really aligned from the get-go? Was you very intentional about, right, we're gonna— okay, we're gonna do this, maybe happened sooner than we thought or didn't plan for this to happen. Was step 1 very much like, right, what do we want? Or was it like, let's just do some deals for ourselves and then we'll figure that out? What was that early period like?

So for us, the business was started out necessity, right? So when we looked at it, it was all at Chapman Black. I'd been there 5 years, I think Cal 6, 7, Jack just under me. Um, and from that, I think I had my daughter Tyler on the 2nd of January 2020. By the time my paternity was over, back in the office, told by the end of that week the business is no more. So that was the kind of kick up the bum we needed to get the job done. And myself and Callum had spoke about starting a business previously, but you're comfortable, right? We was at Chapman Blackham, for its faults, there were so many greats about it. Like it was a home of some great builders and how many companies have come from that since. But getting that news and then CEOs ringing you, oh, I want you to come and start this, I want you to build that. It was a case of, okay, I can go do it for somebody else or we can do it. So by the end of January we'd incorporated CLM and we was all aligned from the start in terms of what we wanted, what we wanted to get outta the business. That's grown as we've gone through the time, but we was all aligned in terms of what we need to do. First of all is getting it up and running, getting it off the floor and being successful. But then what we wanted to be known for, we was all aligned with.

Was it quite, was it quite comfortable to have— and we'll talk more about this— but like in that early period, was it quite easy for you guys to have honest conversations with each other then in terms of like— because you also said, which is a really important factor to think about if you're going to go into business with someone, is where you are actually in your life.

Yeah.

Because like you said, you was maybe at slightly different points, each of And I think that is a really important thing to at least consider because some things might be way more important to you and your risk tolerance might be way different to the next person if they're not starting a family yet and they're at a different stage. So was it quite easy for you guys to have those honest conversations, or what was that like?

You know, I think with all of us, we've grown together, right? We're friends as well, um, we have radical honesty. So like, we're very, very direct in our approach. We don't hide anything. We know exactly how each other's feeling, which helps at that. Like, when we started, I just had Tyler Callum had bought his house. Jack was just moving out into his own. So from that, we was all aligned in terms of what we needed to do. That was be successful. And during that period, for instance, yeah, I was looking at the future point in terms of, I gotta have a kid now, I need to bring money in consistently. But to get to that point, we all needed to graft. And that was like, we was at ground zero. So we wanna build on the success we've had previously, but now in our own way. So that's how we operated with the same values, the same training that we got previously, but with the visionary of where we want to take this business. Um, so I would say from that standpoint, it was easy to have conversations because it was all aligned and where we wanted to get to. And where we was all aligned, if someone wasn't living up to that, or if someone wasn't on that trajectory, it's quite easy to pull it back and say, guys, look, this is what we're doing. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, fair. Nice. That's good, because I know I just wanted to highlight that because there'll be a lot of people that maybe go into business with someone and have gone into business with someone, and those honest conversations are hard. Or I'm sure you've had plenty of conversations where you feel like the person is telling you something that you want to hear versus them being honest.

Yeah.

And I feel like on this journey, particularly if you're doing with other people, you really have to have that radical honesty.

No, 100%.

So important.

I think even if we look at us and we're talking more later down the line now, is that we've had kind of advisors, one being Logan Naidoo, um, and one of the things that he sat down with us and was like, look, you all need to be aligned to achieve what's on this journey. So there was an exercise we did where we wrote down exactly where we wanted to go, not together just in terms of what we wanted, what we wanted to get out of it, what it looks like. Um, and from us being extremely aligned, there was little things in it that was like, this was important to someone, that was important. But where we're always looking at the end goal, you don't think of that. So that exercise was so great in terms of getting us to the point of actually we're all on one accord now. Um, and that's how we build the business from here. That was probably 2 years ago now, for instance.

That's a good exercise.

But wanting us to think we're on the same page, but then obviously things change in life, etc. This is where we are now. So that was great for us to be aligned on one note.

Yeah, the key part there is you do it individually and then—

Yeah, because if you're sitting next to each other, you debate, oh yeah, that's important for you, that's important for you. Whereas when you do it on your own and you come together and you kind of compare notes, it's like, all right, I didn't even know you thought like that.

Would have been interesting what would have happened if it was like radically different. I'd have been a bit—

Yeah, I think for us we've always had, which is quite funny, we've always had, because there's 3 of us, right? Yeah, we've always had like 2 to 1 in terms of decision making. All right, them 2 are cool, just stomach it, go with it, right? If you really disagreed with it, it'd be fine, we'd discuss it. But that works so well initially going through because it was like, all right, cool, I'll back you boys.

Because that's what I mean, if it was two of you, yeah, that you could be like really for something, the other person could be not. But I guess that, that's where the third person can be 100%.

And like, you have like— everyone doesn't see eye to eye all the time, right? Friends don't, families don't. But in that, you always have that one person that in that situation is the mediator, the one that's actually seeing clearly, um, and not objective. So that's helped, that's helped us through the whole journey.

Yeah. So to build on this, and in terms of just give people a bit of, uh, context on this journey. So I've got here like, uh, year one, so 2020, did just over a million. And this was very much like you said, just really focusing on, uh, building your own success, right? So it wasn't really focusing on like growing, scaling, headcount, these things. It was like, let's really like build this ourselves, right?

Yeah, no, because we look at it, we launched January 30th, I think we incorporated 2020. What was he in March when COVID hit? So for us it was a case of was together for a month and now we're at home. And obviously from a world standpoint, nobody knew what was going on. Everybody was quite frightened, right? But in that we've started a new business. So for us, we're still trying to business develop. We're on the phone, we're calling. Some clients are like, you realize that there's a global pandemic on at the moment, like hold off on hiring for a little while, please. Um, so you have to roll with the punches. Um, but yeah, we set the goal as a million. And we hit that. I remember we had our first office in Liverpool Street in Spaces. It was in COVID, so we had like a 50-man kind of co-working space in the middle of it. It was just us 4 and then another guy at the end. So we kind of went through that, and we didn't know we hit the million initially. And this is where we realized from a standpoint of how goal-driven we are, we learned later on how to celebrate success because we just kept working, looked up, oh, we've hit the million. Perfect. All right, let's carry on, right? There was no like celebration to it, but it was a big achievement. We set out to hit it, we surpassed it, hit 1.1 in the first year, which we couldn't complain with.

And then just, just before I give people a bit of a picture of the next few years, because then I think that'll really then help when we talk about the lessons and the things that we've learned. But in terms of your world, I know one of the lessons here was around diverse market diversification we're going to talk about, but you're sort of Was it all of your backgrounds was like automotive? Is that very much your world or not?

Yeah, so when we looked at it, we all grew up through Chapman Black, right? And it was automotive-focused recruiters. Um, luckily when we looked at it and you can split automotive up in kind of metal, commodities, plastics, electronics. So I did metals, Callum did plastics, Jack did the tech side, which covered electronics as well. So we covered the full value chain. Um, and then because of that, we was able then to jump straight in. We had no non-competes coming out of Chapman Black, so we was working with the same clients. There's a story of we're running around the city trying to get a bank account because the client's waiting to pass a retainer. And we noticed at that point everything's done over the phone. You can't meet anyone in the bank, but things like that. So yeah, we focus on auto straight away because that's what we knew. That's why we built the relationships. There was 10, 11 years between us of just doing that and focusing on a daily basis and being specialized.

And it's all perm?

All perm.

Yeah. Okay. And then as well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of your— the type of, um, where you do a lot of business as well is it's not that UK-based, is it? It's a lot more Europe.

Yeah, no, so for us, we don't really work in the UK, only if we're kind of requested by the partners that we work with. Um, a lot of ours is done in kind of Europe, North America. At the start, that was the main bit, not so much in the APAC region. When requested, we work there, but we wanted to be known to be the number one within EMEA and NAFTA.

Nice. Yeah, I think that, that just paints a really good picture for people in terms of your world. We'll go into how we sort of evolved this, the, uh, market piece. And we've also now got, um, a contract recruitment brand within the group as well, which we'll touch on. But to give people a bit of, um, insight here, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but just a bit of a timeline. So year 2 being 2021, got here like that was first real year where really had to go like growing, scaling. So revenue then was £2.5 million, circa 13 people in the business. Obviously year 3, um, in between these two years, obviously this was real, uh, crazy times. Yeah, good time to be in recruitment. £4.1 million revenue-wise, headcount circa 18 to 20 people. Uh, then year 4, we're talking 2023, £3.1 million, still around 18 to 20 people, but we really made some strides in terms of building the back office. You guys were, uh, trying to take more of a step back in terms of being like in a like full billing capacity.

Yep.

Uh, year 5, 2024, $3.4 million, circa 25 headcount. Austin launched as well, Morocco launched in that time. And then this year, obviously we're catching up, but before, um, having a really good year, on track to do the $5 million, which I know is a big goal, and still around the, the 25, uh, headcount mark. Got this Contract brand as part of the group as well. Some really cool things happening. So I think As I was saying to you, that there's— there'll be so many stories, so many things that have happened in that time. We've tried to distill down some of the really important lessons. So I think the first one that I just wanted to dig into with you, telling us about your background and markets. And for a lot of people, if you're starting your own recruitment business, you're probably going to do it in, uh, an industry that you've got, you know, established networks, these things, or you might start something new, but you're going to make that just way more harder for yourself. So I'll, I'll let you share like your story with this and your experience, but one of the, the standout things this year for sure, or over the last 18 months or so, has been this intentional diversification piece. And the way that I've seen it play out is if you're a recruitment business, there is an element of it might be harder to diversify if you're smaller and want to stay smaller, because you don't want to spread yourself too thin. But I think any business that I've met or sat down with that have grown or intentionally growing, they've really thought about diversification. The successful companies have anyway. So that could be, uh, they want to make sure that all their eggs aren't in one basket when it comes to an industry in the niche. So, uh, let's just say as a bit of an example, I really doubled down on renewables, specifically hydrogen. Some stuff happens politically and it's like, fuck, we're like back to zero. That's completely gone.

Yeah.

So obviously that can, you know, make you vulnerable there. But then also the diversification, I think, in terms of how you're, uh, how you operate with your customers. So having different ways that you work with them. Obviously you've got typical ways of contingent, retain, but then there's different things that you could be doing that results in different ways you get paid, whether that be subscription or on a monthly going basis. And then you've also got diversification in terms of where you do business. That's a great advantage as well, where if all of your eggs are in the European basket and there's some things politically happening there that's having a big impact, but you've also got your revenue coming from the US, there might be parts of the year where the US is really outperforming in Europe, but then you've actually got that chance of that actually helping you.

Yeah.

So I guess I'll just share that with you because I feel like the companies that have really struggled have been companies where maybe they have just got too reliant— and this plays out for recruiters as well— you've got one big account you just get too reliant on. So I think this plays itself out and I've constantly shared that with people where I think the best companies don't diversify by accident, but they're really intentional about, or trying to be really smart and intentional about, where they hedge their bets and where they're spreading their risk. So tell us about your story with that, because I've got here, as you said, started very auto-focused, um, automotive-focused, but then certain things happen where then that became challenging, right? So just talk to us about your journey with this, because I think that's been a big lesson this year.

100%. It even comes down for the revenue story that you went through, that we went from 4.1 1, then to 3.1, right? But we realized then that we need to, as well as working in the business, work on the business. So for us, we needed to have the infrastructure set at that point to be able to kick on for growth. So that's when we brought in operations, finance, um, talent, as well as marketing to really build our support team to be able to go forward. We took a slight step back from billing, so all of that revenue was from the team. Um, then we saw the growth the next year, and I think that was still tough time for everybody, but then we're seeing kind of the benefits pay off. And that comes into now what you just mentioned about diversification. So we were just auto-focused, right? Then you had COVID that hit, you had the semiconductor shortage that hit, right? So from that we saw that if anything happens to auto, it affects us.

What's the semiconductor shortage? I know it's a bit of Spanish or German.

So the semiconductor shortage. So basically during the aspect of COVID obviously for a car to work right, you need a semiconductor chip that controls the electronics able to power the vehicle. Because of the shortage and the shutdowns in kind of auto, what then happened was that the semiconductor companies that make them, they decrease from auto production, but then still goes into consumer electronics, goes into phones, laptops, whatever that may be. So they ordered more, right? So that's how you get your iPhones, whatever else. But now there wasn't enough semiconductor chips to be able to go through to new vehicles. So there was vehicles that were basically ready assembled but wouldn't work because they haven't got the electronics. So that affected what we did, right? So what we realized was we didn't want to lose the identity of what we've grown over that many years and what we knew, but we wanted to be able to keep the auto identity but still diversify in other areas. So when we looked at auto, auto went from kind of traditional automotive, which was very internal combustion engine, to now what we've seen over the last few years, fully fledged EV. So that took us into electrification, which took us into battery technology because that's the cells that are going into the vehicles, which then led us into energy storage, which now builds out our energy practice, which is battery technology, energy storage, storage, hydrogen, and parts of renewables. Similarly, when we looked at manufacturing during COVID auto plants were then being rectified to be able to produce ventilators. So from that standpoint, the same candidates that you can use from a manufacturing standpoint can go across industry. So that pushed us into industrial, and now with the boom, it's pushed us into defence. So that's our manufacturing business. And then we diversify from a technology standpoint because from an auto standpoint, it was very ADAS-driven, autonomous driving. Which leads into other areas. That could be agriculture, that could be different areas of autonomous vehicles, um, which led continuing semiconductor because that goes from a car to an iPhone to a laptop, whatever electronics you have from these cameras to be able to work. So now we've got manufacturing, energy, and technology, and we've been able to keep the automotive DNA within that because they've all been kind of— if you looked at a spider diagram of what I'll be in here, these are all adjacent industries that we can still keep the auto DNA. And for us, that's been able to further diversify us as experts but build new niches for individuals from a product standpoint, um, but still keeping what we have from a skill set standpoint.

That was a really good breakdown. And like, you know, like you're talking about that sort of spider web almost, how much of that was like— how did you get to that point? Obviously now we've got so much data information at our fingertips. Was it for you guys making sure that you made that time to really look into these things? Was it actually through your conversations? Obviously you're going to have a, you know, years of expertise and understanding of your ecosystem, but like, just how much of that was like really intentional plan versus organically being like, oh, keep speaking to these companies about this, we need to look at that, you know what I mean? Like, how did you get to that? Because that was a really good breakdown.

Yeah, I think any, any piece of research, especially in what we do, is through conversation. So speaking to as many people as possible. But where we're in auto it was inevitable because of the push to EV that we had to then upskill to electrification, similar to our customers, which led into battery technology. And then from that, when you're having those conversations, the types of candidates and you're seeing, well, these cells are not just being used in vehicles, but they're being used for energy storage stacks or they're being used in other areas. So that was easy to diversify. And it's just about then having conversations in that space to see where the hot topic is, where the niche is, and where we can add value. And similarly, from a semiconductor standpoint, we just wasn't in it as much, but we knew that's the transition. So there was research involved, but it's coming from the conversations that we had and our knowledge of knowing where the industry is pushing.

Yeah, I think that's honestly like— I feel like that is a— that has to be your job as a recruitment entrepreneur, I think.

Yeah, and you've got, you've got to do it yourself. You can't just throw people in and say, look, that you can't do it. It's about, okay, look, I'm having conversations with you, I'm in the trenches, I'm in at the deep end, let's do it together. And for us now, when we're looking at any new markets, before we put a new consultant in, the research is done ahead of time. It's going to them, look, this is everything you need to be successful. There's business development lists, there's the market knowledge you need to now be upskilled on it, and we'll train you within that. No one's thrown into the deep end blind. Um, that way we can focus on really building out what we do with experts, with niches, and really pushing to take people from good to great.

And then if you— when, when do you feel like you really felt the benefit of that diversification, like, have you really seen the benefit of that this year? I don't know if there's been moments where it's like certain things are happening and it's like, wow, like, if we would still just in this, would have been really affected. Have you— how was it?

Even if you've got auto now, auto's always going to grow and always grow, but right now it's probably 1% a year just because of the particular situations you had in the US, the presidential race, who's going to come in. You've then had Trump enter the market, put tariffs left, right, and center. There's then wars that break out. We've had Russia, Ukraine, and that all affects it. So being able to be in these adjacent industries has done us extremely well because it's not just affected by a vehicle. So again, when we are looking at the energy side specifically, that was a case of, well, all of these startups that are in that space, they're already funded, they're funded to grow. That's the only way they're gonna be able to hit their milestones. To make their shareholders happy. So they need us. So that was a huge part of energy. We worked with startups, helping them scale, going from kind of prototype to pilot line, pilot line to gigafab scale. So that was something that was great, that diversified. We did the same in hydrogen too. And now from a semiconductor standpoint, I would say that's something that just keeps going north, especially within the US in terms of these companies that are funded, they're growing, they're public businesses. So I think if we would've just stuck in traditional automotive, we would've still been here, we would've still done well, but we wouldn't have the trajectory or the growth that we're on at the moment. Yeah.

So did you say at the start US was always from day one you was doing US?

Yeah, we like, I think probably 50% of our business has always been in the US. Right. There'd be times where myself, Jack would be over Detroit-based, Bay Area-based for 2, 3 weeks at a time to be able to go and meet clients. It's very, very different in terms of their approach. They like you to be able to be face-to-face, discuss processes, introduce you to different decision makers and really build um, a relationship, not just kind of a transactional partnership. It's really becoming a partner to them. Um, and we knew we needed to be present, so by opening Austin, it really just made that prevalent. We're around the corner, we're literally in between the Bay Area and Detroit, so the guys can get in and out to meet clients.

And then again, along this journey, have you really felt the benefit of, yeah, having revenue come from like different parts of the world? Like, I'm assuming there's been parts where like the US is— that's been like really great position to be in, and then vice versa with Europe. That's how—

Yeah, 100%. There's different parts of the business units that do better in different areas at different times due to political situations. So if we're looking at it now, and I use energy as another example, um, from a Trump standpoint, kind of a lot of his campaign was drill baby drill, right? Going back to oil. So that affected it, but it was still prevalent in Europe because it was growing here. When they're introducing tariffs, that's now from a standpoint of, let's say, the Asian or Chinese suppliers, they want to enter Europe. They need someone with an expertise to help them do that. And then we look at semiconductor, that's probably larger in Europe, and there's a split between auto. So having both sides of the, the pond, so to say, is really, really important. And it's something that is not just a selling point, but gives our partners the peace of mind knowing that we can support on both continents.

Yeah, no, for sure. So another Like you said, in your time at Chapman Black, you built a team, but it's, it's different hiring for your own business, isn't it?

You know what, we can hire for other people so well. Um, when it comes to us, I would say, um, initially when we first started the business, we hired people that could do the job and really forgot about the glue that brings everybody together. So we had really talented consultants, but there wasn't the glue to bring them together. So that's something we worked on to really build um, a culture that we wanted, which is really high-performing, collaborative. Um, but then also from when I first started recruitment, recruitment in general is very different, like very much focused now on mental health, well-being, whereas back when I first started, people were probably in the pub Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. It wasn't the same. Um, so that's something that's helped the business grow too, being able to be kind of diversified in that sense.

I think the thing as well, if you think about it like when you really started to grow, so many companies I've met went through that where there's just so much demand.

Yeah.

So a lot of companies learned that lesson the hard way where you're looking at the job flow, the demand, and you may find yourself leaning towards maybe don't fit the culture perfectly, but I know they could do the job, they can work on jobs, you know. I mean, that, that's just the, the truth of it as well. Do you feel like So that affects growth. Yeah, right.

Um, hiring people just because they could do a job but don't fit what you're building— we've been through that stage. Um, that affects growth. And it's really about bringing individuals in not only that add to the culture but also add to the business, that can raise the bar. Um, and that's what we've been able to do now, set the bar high. The individuals that don't meet it don't come in, and everybody has value when they come into the business.

I was just gonna say, do you feel like It sounds like you've got real clarity on it now, or it's built over time, but maybe when we first started to grow and add people in, do we feel like we had real clarity on what our non-negotiable parts were on the culture, or do you feel like maybe you're still figuring that out as we was building?

I think it was something where we was figuring out who we wanted to be. Um, to give you an example from the Chapman Black story, they was very much this side We started all the way over here to be very, very different, and what we realized was really meeting in the middle from a cultural standpoint, still being able to go out, celebrate success in whatever capacity that is. But when we're in the office, it's a competitive environment, but you want to help each other, you want to be collaborative, you're looking out for everybody's best interest. We don't have that kind of stab you in the back recruitment culture. It's something that we don't want and we'll never have. For us, it's about being collaborative and everybody being bought into the end goal of the success and being happy for one another.

Yeah, it's important to get that mix, isn't it? Yeah, it doesn't have to be either or, like, really competitive.

We've got individuals in teams in the office that you can do a 100K deal, perfect, they're going to go to the gym with you, do whatever you want to do to celebrate. But as soon as they get back in the office, they want to do 105K just to say they're the best, you know.

And then again, this seems to be like a common thing. What's been— so I've got here, like, found it hard to get that senior hire piece right. What have you guys found hard about that? Because that is a common thing.

Yeah, so it's like for us, in terms of what we've done, we've been able to hire green, hire second jobbers that we can really develop and grow. Um, but really to accelerate growth, the ideal is having experience within the areas that you are. Um, when we've looked at it, one, it's a talent aspect. Are we finding the right individuals that can add value but also add to the culture of the business? Um, outside of that, you've got Everybody's looking for the same thing. So if everybody wants that perfect, that needle in the haystack, amongst us there's 6, 7 other businesses that want it too. And you'll see from that kind of the COVID boom how that went. So for us it's about finding the right individuals and making sure they're there. But like we say to our clients, the best candidates ain't always looking. We wasn't. I was happy where I was. I was earning good money. I was around my friends. So there has to be a pulling factor to bring those people in. And we want the right talent. We've had some success stories of bringing bringing in, um, what, experienced people? Yeah, experienced people.

Sorry. Yeah, yeah.

Um, but then outside of that, it's about making sure you've got the right person, the right fit, and the people that buy into the end goal of the vision too.

So I know it, like, people would have heard that before, sounds obvious, but it's just hard to, like, execute every time.

Yeah.

Especially when you've got someone that you've done the back channel references, you've, you're really confident in terms of their track record, you know what they could bring to the business financially. But it's being disciplined with actually what are they going to bring culturally and does that match up.

And it's also looking at, right, so just because someone was a top biller and so successful in this part of the industry doesn't mean that that always transitions into the markets that we do. There's still going to be that learning process. They need to understand, build credibility, really understand where they're going to operate and be an expert in, and then look to kick on. But when you're bringing individuals in that are so used to a certain way of working, that's when you need to mold it as well. So there's so many avenues and so many things that come together to make that work.

Should we talk about something as well? Like, like you said, we want to be able to, as we grow, add really great experienced people. But I think any successful recruitment business— obviously Chapman Black is a good example— you have to be able to develop your own talent. Yep. Right. And I think I remember on one of our calls you really described London as like your center of excellence, I think you said. I know this is something you're really passionate about, and I think one of the really cool things about our industry, the fact that if you've got the person that has, has the will, the motivation, willing to learn, that genuinely they can change their life with a career in recruitment, especially if they join a really great business as well. So should we just talk a bit about your experience of getting this right, what we've learned in terms of— because this is hard, and we're talking before, it's very like generalized, but I think a lot of people can fall into that trap of like, I've hired too many, uh, people with second job, there's no experience, and I haven't worked out, like, it's not worth it, the cost of hiring now, the cost of the base salaries, I'd rather just hire someone that comes with experience. But as we all know, there's no silver bullets, and that comes with its own challenges. So what, what did we learn here on getting people up to speed and getting that right versus some of the bits that maybe we felt like didn't quite work as we hoped? Let's just talk about the upskilling, the training side.

So for us, training is everything. What we did initially, we bought training in-house, hired someone that was brilliant, but it just didn't click. It didn't click in terms of our industry. It was when you're looking at the sales processes, etc., it was quite generic. And the feedback we got from the team was that it's not kind of what they're doing day to day. And when we're looking at a lot of the success stories that we've had in the business, the people that have grown, they've worked directly with myself, Callum, Jack. They've been trained by us. So people that have been in the industry, been there, done that, know the objections, know the ways of the market, and can give them helping points. So what we've been able to do now is really focus on, again, bringing training in-house, but being able to be delivered by myself, Callum, Jack within the US, but also our leaders, our top performers within the business, to not only be able to give the way that we operate, but also be to kind of show how they've been able to develop their own way of working. And it's been a task that's been quite long, but we've had great feedback so far of really being industry-specific within our training. And it's really focused around what they're doing in their role, whether they're client-facing, whether they're more candidate generation or candidate-focused. And from that, we're seeing people jump by leaps and bounds. And a lot of what we do— yeah, we do some in the classroom, but it's about being on the phone, being on the desk, really using those real-life scenarios where we can coach people through things so it's live and they understand. And in the business, we really do have kind of a fail fast, fail forward mentality, and that's worked so well. People can make mistakes. We're all going to make mistakes. I've been doing it now close to 11 years, still make mistakes, but it's about how you learn from them and how you can implement it. And as long as someone's got the drive, the desire, the determination, they will get there.

And how are you thinking about that, like, as you grow? Like, do you feel like that'd be harder and harder, or you have to be even more intentional and planned with the things that you do internally? Because I think, like, most people would probably agree, if you've got a really great recruitment leader that's leading by the front, like yourself— I'm, I'm by you, I'm sitting there, I can hear you on calls and stuff like that— that's easy. But how do we do that when we've got 10 more people in the business over the next 12 months? Have you thought about that?

Yeah, 100%. So from our standpoint, it's not just going to be delivered by us, it's delivered by individuals within the organisation. But we've set the blueprint, we've got the playbook, you know, of what that looks like, how to deliver it, and we take our consultants through it too. Um, will we bring somebody in at some point to be able to take over L&D? Most likely, I think. But for now, in the growth trajectory and where we're going, we're in a position where we can still be hands-on with it, which I think is extremely important because all that's going to happen is our consultants learn it, they can then understand it, they can then pass it on. So that's how we're going to go that avenue. And I think that is the route to success for us right now. Will it change moving forward if we had a cohort of 10, 11 people? Yes, probably, but it will still follow the same process. And it's like, if they're coming in, they're not all trying to go into one space. They're going to be in different parts of the business, so they're going to have different report lines, etc., but they'll still get the same information. They still get what we would call the CLM way drummed into them so they know how to operate from day one.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Should we—

because I think, I think this is part of it as well. Let's just talk a bit about the way that you've got things set up as well in terms of— because I think this is, this is part of that equation in terms of if I'm hiring people that a second job is— don't have recruitment experience, how do we approach that initial period of getting them up to profitability? Are we getting them out to market, speaking to candidates, speaking, regenerating candidates on our database? Are we getting them to go out there, speak to hiring managers. Like you said, you guys have done the smart thing where things are already mapped. They're not just having to figure that out all themselves. But obviously you guys describe yourselves as like a search firm. Yeah, right. Is that fair? Yeah. So how do you get— if I come into your business and I'm a second jobber, am I just going to be focusing on growing my talent network first? Am I going to be going and expect to go out to speak to hiring managers? Have you played around with that? Like, how do you feel about that when you come into the business?

Anybody enters the business starts in the search function. So what they do is they're responsible for candidate generation, um, but they're not just thrown in at the deep end. What we try and do is really understand from interview phase where that person wants to go, where we see them fitting in the business, where they fit within the sub-team. Because what we will then do is still keep that individual having a niche, which could be a product area and a skill set. So the idea is, let's say someone moves into Tier 1, they're doing operations within the metal commodity, that person, while they're delivering, will be focused purely within that. They'll be delivering searches within there, speaking to candidates. So they really become an expert within that, from a process standpoint to the product to what type of candidate makes a good candidate. So then when they are ready to make that transition into business development, they will transition in the same area that they've learned. So now all of those candidates, because we work at executive level, now can become potential decision makers, and they've already got the network, so they continue to build from there. So that's how we kind of focus on bringing people in, getting them skill, get them really working in line with the CLM way, it is by building them from day one into being an expert. Because if I threw you in at the deep end and you're speaking to a CEO of a $40 billion business, you've got one chance to make a first impression. If there's no credibility there, that guy's never going to answer the phone to you again.

Is that one of the main ways that I was— I'm always interested to hear people's— how they would answer this question in terms of if I was to say to you I'm a specialist recruiter that does the semiconductor market in France, and I do this skill set. I've been doing it for a good amount of time. I work with, uh, businesses in a few different ways, but a lot of the time it is on like successful placement. And then you say, well, I'm— I actually work, um, as an exec search recruiter in the same space. What are the diff— what are the main differences? Like, how, how do you think about that? Because sometimes I do. I'll be honest with you, a lot of companies that I have met that say they're search or say that this, oftentimes when you really dig into it, there's a lot of similarities in terms of how they work, the process that they take people through. And sometimes I do feel like it's almost like a perception is reality type of thing in terms of how that recruitment company wants to be perceived. Yeah. How do you think about the difference? Because I'm sure you've had people in your business that wouldn't say that they were in exec search and now, do you know what I mean, make that—

yeah, no. So it's about the process, right? It's about how you operate. Um, and it's about the playbook that you use. So if we look at it, we've brought people in that have been more contingent recruiters, which is higher volume, quick turnover, very transactional. Um, for us it's about building the relationship, it's about becoming a partner to that organization, not just a supplier. It's about being the go-to for that business, it's about being the first phone call that they make because of the process that we set. Um, a lot of businesses, whether you're in exec search or you're more of a contingency agency We're all going to use similar channels from a social media standpoint. Everybody uses LinkedIn, um, and it's about what else do we offer from a standpoint of that to be able to deliver great candidates quickly but not allow the speed to affect the quality, um, and how we build those relationships with each individual decision maker. It's not about just getting on the phone to them, trying to pitch them a candidate. With the decision makers that we work with in the partners the first probably 5-10 minutes of any conversation we have with them is just talking. Like, I know all my decision makers, um, how many kids they've got. For instance, one of them's the guy drumming with his son, does open water fishing with his daughter. Like, we know all of this, so we build relationships, we build friendships, which leads into partnerships to where we're used all the time. Um, and then when you're looking at a contingency recruiter, quality may not always be there because it's high churn. Um, whereas what we do It's probably not as quick, but when we're looking at it on the back end of it, it's a lot more valuable. And I think that's some of the key differences. But as long as they can come in with the mentality and they're willing to change or willing to mold, that's great. I don't want anybody to come in the business as a carbon copy of myself, Jack, or Callum. We don't want that. We don't want robots. We want people to have their own personalities, their own way of working, taking in the great stuff that we do. And if they don't agree with some of the stuff, pushing it to one side and being successful themselves.

And then, and then would you also say it's like the, the part of the market you operate in, in terms of seniority, or not really?

Yeah, 100%. If you're coming in and all you work is with engineers, your process is going to be very different if you're dealing with VPs, directors, C-level. Um, and for us, we really target ourselves from director through VP to C-level and board functions. Um, and we operate across 5 or 6 key skill sets, from operations, engineering, HR, finance, sales, and supply chain. So we know what we're good at, we know where we have the networks, and we know where we can excel. And I think that's the difference. We don't over-promise and under-deliver. If we take something on, we know we're going to fill it. And there's been plenty of times where clients have contacted us to be able to say, can you do this? Honestly, no, you're better off going somewhere else, because I wouldn't want one bad experience to tarnish the partnership that we've built or ruin what we have.

And also, that's just part of actually living like you, you actually, you saying that you're an exec search and this is what you do, but then if you say yes every time they said, can you help me with this sort of engineering role and stuff, it goes against that, doesn't it?

Yeah, because we're not generalists, we're specialists, we're experts in certain areas. Um, so if you come to us in these, across these skill sets, at these levels, within these regions, we'll go above and beyond, we'll execute every single time. Don't get me wrong, there's times where our partners go to, so can you do me a favor? Like, and we're like, okay, cool, look, we need a little bit bit longer. Because what we try and do within our processes is we want to deliver within 10 working days maximum of launching that search. If it's something that we're not as confident on or we're doing more from a favor standpoint, we just extend that time, um, because we still want to deliver with quality. We're not a company that just throws CVs until one sticks. We know exactly what that customer is looking for. We become an extension of their talent team and we deliver every time.

And then do you typically work with your customers on like a retained—

yeah, the majority of our business is retained, right? Um, but for us, we're not rigid in our approach. We're flexible. So standard Executive Search is a free stage retain model. We offer different partners different solutions that are suited to their business and to their needs at that time. Um, so we think of being flexible to the solution, and that's how we build partnerships. If we go into it being rigid every time, we wouldn't be nearly as successful. And I think that's why we're used a lot more over, you could say, your Shrek firms, etc., as a boutique agency, because we're flexible, we build long-term partnerships, and we build relationships, and we're able to offer a tailored solution to that business need. And at the moment, across all industries, there's volatility, there's turbulence. So being able to go in and actually show support to an agency or a company, um, goes a long way.

Yeah, I think honestly, like, whenever I speak to recruiters that want to work more in that way that you're talking about but haven't before, I think a lot of it's just limiting beliefs.

100%. It's like, because once you—

whenever I speak to them like you, that's been— you've always, like, maybe it's evolved over time.

Yeah.

But correct me if I'm wrong, Chapman Black, did you work in similar ways in terms of the types of, like, would you position yourself as a search consultant?

Yes. So we would still position ourselves in a certain sense, but did we have the expertise or the backing of everything we had previously? Probably not all the way there, but still had the same mentality. So over the years we've really been able to refine it and really know what we're good at, what we're not, and we want to make kind of those 1% improvements, those gains every day. And I think that's what's kind of transitioned us into the way we're working now and allowed us to work in a position where we haven't got to do cold outreach constantly. We're able to be working off recommendation, people, executives willing to put their name on the line for us, which I think has been extremely important to our growth.

Yeah, I just think, yeah, if you're like listening and you're like, I really, I want to be able to work with more of my customers and clients that way, like, you absolutely can. Yeah, I do think there's— it's just more limiting beliefs and maybe haven't done it before. But I think there's just so many benefits to being committed to want to work with your customers in that way. Big one being like predictability of like your future in terms of we can forecast and do that a lot more effectively if we're working on way more committed searches versus a fill rate of 35%, 40%. For some, I think you might run into this, but for some people that might be their worst nightmare. Of like working that way, being really committed, having that responsibility of having to deliver in 10 days. Some people, that real— they really won't like the idea of that, because the good thing about on a contingent basis is you can say you can deliver and then there's no sort of responsibility really. If you're like, no, I didn't deliver, and that— there's no— but for some people, um, it could be really right. For others, uh, maybe not. But then I think if you do really commit to this, the big benefit also is we've all been there if you've worked in contingent where you have that quarter or that month where everything drops out, and that is so painful. And we've probably learned— we've probably lost a lot of people in our industry where they're like, I just can't go through that again.

Yeah.

So there's a lot there. I just think— I just wanted to highlight it because I just think working that way and being committed that way is in reach for a lot of people.

It's also about working smart, right? So just because the majority of our business is retained, it doesn't mean that every search we do is on a retained basis, right? Because you need to have the emotional intelligence to understand, is that right for that client at that time, you know? And I think that's what we're getting ingrained in our consultants, is you can't pitch a solution before you know the problem.

Yeah.

And that's why we offer that tailored solution. But why it makes it easier for our consultants to deliver quickly with quality is because they're specialized. So they already know the market, and it's just constantly about rechecking in, regrowing, um, recounting the people that they're speaking with, understanding goings-on. So if I'm doing operations and someone gives me an operations function, then I can deliver that quickly. When we get up to now, your EVPs, your SVPs, your C-level functions, yep, the timeline's increased. Um, because if I delivered 5 CEO CVs within a week, the client's going to be like, one, they're not going to be like, oh great, you did it with speed, you must know these people already. Have you really gone through the qualification? So it differs on the level. But outside of that, from us being specialized, having the skill set-specific, product area-focused consultants allows them to be able to kick on quickly.

Yeah, especially if you're doing more that senior end market, as you said, like you have that top-down approach. So a lot of these people you could work with at some point.

100%, that your clients become candidates. Yeah, um, or candidates become clients, sorry, because you're working at that level. They know now the level of service they've received.

Yeah.

So if you give them— you go above and beyond for them, for them personally, once they're in a position or at their current company, they're going to know you're going to give another candidate that experience. So they work with you on both sides.

Yeah. And I think all those things that you said there, I think if you work in a good business, that should be set top down. Like, like you're talking about there, like you're setting your teams up for success.

Yeah.

And that, that is again like responsibility of the recruitment business, I feel like. Um, and a great recruitment leader will be thinking about that. How can they improve things? They want— rather than just telling their team they want them to win more committed work, they might actually look at their strategy and how they're setting them up and Actually, are they focused enough? Can they actually deliver on what they say they're going to? So, and then also, like you just said there, that problem piece, that is a big thing as well. If I sit down with anyone, we're not talking about skill sets and vacancies, we're talking about the problems, right, for these people. So almost having to like slow down to speed up is, is a bit different for people if they haven't worked in that way. And I think as well, the other big sort of insight and understanding, if you do start working in the way that you're talking about is you're gonna— it's a lot more about the process and your customers at the end of that process going, we've got the best person, and then being confident they've got the best person, not the quickest person that they've been able to interview, right? Because I think if you've worked on a success fee basis, we've all had that experience of the hiring manager going, this person's great, but let's just see one or two more. And that's likely because they haven't probably understood like what the process has been, and actually this is the best person for the job versus the quickest person to go, yeah, I'll interview and I'll get involved, you know what I mean? So there's, there are subtle differences, but it's in reach for a lot of people who've got the right mindset. They want to learn. That's the thing that I always want to stress to people. It's not out of reach if they want to work in that more committed way.

Yeah, but it's that, so even with, um, our consultants, they let the client know exactly what they get within our different models, um, and we can recommend them in terms of what's going to match the need that they just mentioned, and whether that be retained, contingent, obviously everything we do is exclusive, um, but outside of that, we give them kind of the power to be able to, um, create something.

Should we talk about Morocco? Yeah, let's get into it, because that, that's, that I feel like you've shared with me, that's been quite key. You've spoken about the market strategy, you're talking about if we bring people into the business, we've been really diligent in terms of the market map and, uh, the data they're going to have available, understanding the key players or what are tier 1 clients look like, or the tier 1 clients in the space. How did this come about then? Why didn't you share this with us in terms of, well, what is Morocco today? How would you describe it in terms of the part of the business, in terms of what you've got there?

Morocco has been a game changer for us. It's an enabler for the rest of the business and our growth trajectory. It's been a key part for our consultants to be successful. I think also it's been the entry point for us into kind of the MENA region, which is we've seen a lot of movement within our industries. If we use manufacturing, for example, went from Western Europe to Eastern Europe from a cost standpoint, and now going into kind of North Africa and the Middle East. But how it come about was that we was introduced to somebody that was focused on bringing new business into Morocco. They knew about our expertise within the energy space. There was a large-scale Chinese cell manufacturer that's going to be launching a gigafactory there, and we went in to really focus on supporting them in entering the country factory and launching that first gigafab. What we looked at from there was that a lot of our tier 1 partners within the automotive side were having the same journey.

When you say tier 1, sorry, I'm not just—

So automotive, so you've got kind of an OEM, which is your BMWs, your Daimlers, your VW, and then tier 1 suppliers, they basically manufacture the parts for that.

Right, okay. So I just wanted to make sure because I thought that was you maybe, you know, you've got aid jobs or like—

So that's actually industry, not like how Ryan's cakehole And a lot of them where they manufacture products for the OEM, they want to be close, right? They want to be able to get them kind of logistically be able to deliver. And when you're looking at Morocco, for instance, there's no political jargon that goes on there. It's our 3 or 4 generation of king. And with that, they're offering land to businesses to come in to build. They need to hire locally. When you're looking at kind of supply chain into Europe is great. And a lot of our partners are setting up greenfields and brownfields, which are kind of new sites basically where they'll be manufacturing products. But then also from an energy standpoint, we're seeing a lot of our kind of energy storage as well as battery technology businesses moving through North Africa into the Middle East too. So it's been an enabler for us to grow our MENA business. And when we're looking at the individuals that we hire within Morocco, they're all local, they're all highly educated, and it's, specifically a country where culture is so important, um, and that's what we needed there. If we just went and put 6, 7 English people within that, we wouldn't have the success. It's really knowing the local culture and really being able to build on that. Those guys speak great English, fluent French, fluent Arabic, which is everything that we needed to be able to grow. And what else we've been able to do there is build out business development, so people that can really focus on winning new business there but have a world-class delivery team, um, that can support Europe can support the US in terms of that.

In terms of your recruiters that are based in the UK and—

Exactly. And then on top of that, we've been able to create what we would class as kind of a sourcing and mapping function where any new client partners that come into the business, the guys in Morocco in that team will support them on mapping out their market. So all our new consultants have got to think about is who they call next. They haven't got to do the whole map. They're upskilled, we teach them on it, and we give them the information. But all they've got to worry about is picking up the phone.

What's been— like I said, you half Algerian, I know these countries can be difficult a lot of the time. Like in Algeria, it's still very much like who you know, a lot of paperwork. What, what, what's been the experience there in terms of like actually getting the entity set up there? Because I'm sure that's— there's been a learning curve on that.

Yeah, I think from that standpoint, to be honest, It wasn't difficult. We had an advisor that was able to run us through that process, and that person was connected to new businesses entering Morocco too. So he was able really to focus on doubling down, and that is something that Callum really, really focused on to be able to get that successful and get it set up, which you've done a great job on so far. So yeah, it wasn't a headache for us.

Yeah, but very much having the right person on the journey with you to do it.

100%, is like, especially within the network, is everything. And from that, we was able, even from the consultants that we hire, Um, it's really about building relationships. Um, it's not about just going in there being new, it's about building relationships, adapting to the culture, and really driving forward that way.

And then how have you— what have you consistently— because I know opened it last year, right? 2024.

Yep.

What— because I was saying to you before, like, I think another consistent trend this year is, is like outsourcing. How have you consistently over time got better at making sure that this team in Morocco are communicating effectively with your guys here in London, um, with the guys in the US? Because I think that's so crucial to get this working right. You were saying in the past you outsourced, but what didn't quite work out was you maybe communicated what you needed help with, but then the quality of work was never quite there, so you ended up having to keep communicating.

So you actually prove it from that standpoint. That was more from an operational standpoint. But when we're looking at what we've been able to do there is you have to have someone leading, um, you have to have people really bought into it, and it's built on success. Um, but where, from what I know of some companies that have outsourced to different areas, is that it's hard to keep a track on the quality because it's a totally different company.

Yeah.

Um, and for us, quality is everything. So we're still able to be able to upskill and train the guys in Morocco just as if they entered in the US or if they entered in Europe. Group. Um, so being able to teach them the CLM way, how we operate, what we do, makes us know that the quality is still consistent. And that's the, that's the biggest thing for us, is consistency in process, consistency, um, in how we operate.

What about like communication? Like, have you anything that you did there that's been fairly smart in terms of your consultants? Do you have like a bit of a rhythm where they communicate with them? I don't know, is it, is it quite easy?

Yeah, so we have, we have a leader in Morocco Reeda, brilliant. Um, and what we have is that they will be on specific projects, um, and that project will have— let's say it's headed up by somebody in Europe that is for a specific search or whatever that is. So they have the communication, they have a weekly catch-up, they have midweek catch-ups to be able to make sure they're on the same page. So the communication is constant. It's not just send it over there, they'll get it done. The communication is constant to make sure we have that uni.

And it might still be evolving, this, but but and might still be, yeah, trying different things. But in terms of like where does their, where does their job stop in terms of the process there? They're mapping companies, mapping people, like you said, helping your guys and girls just know who they need to call next for a particular project. Have you experimented with these people maybe making the initial reach out and them doing that? I don't know, have you?

I mean, yeah, so there's part of it, a part of the team is focused on the, the data, the mapping, the sourcing side. So they will be able to, to map out businesses, map out regions, for instance, and work alongside the consultants, really understand that. So all that consultant now has to do is pick up the phone and call the next decision maker. Outside of that, when we're looking at kind of the delivery side of it, which is supporting either the US or the guys in London in terms of their searches, um, that's something where they're doing outreach, they're reaching out to candidates, they're qualifying candidates. So similar to us having a search consultant in Europe or within the US, they have that there. They focus on obviously the MENA support on the what comes in, but any large-scale projects that we get or any searches that we need support on from a European standpoint and US, they will do too. So they're upskilled just the same as any other search consultant in the business.

Yeah, that seems like a really smart way that you've approached that. But do you see, do you see potential, a lot of growth there, or—

Yeah, I see it being huge, right? I think if we can have a world-class delivery team out of Morocco that's supporting us globally. I think that's a huge benefit, enabling our client partners to be more efficient, to save time. I think that's great. And with the expansion and the movement within our industries going into the likes of North Africa and the Middle East, I think those guys will be, um, again, very, very important to that growth plan, being able to go and support companies there. So I don't just see them being just focused on data, for instance. That's going to be an office that really focuses on the global organization as well as what they're doing locally.

Yeah, I think if you can get that right, that's such a huge, yeah, huge opportunity and a huge benefit just to the entire business, obviously to your end customers, but then also internally to your team as well.

100%. It takes, it takes the weight off. So they know that if they're going out to win business, that they've got a world-class team behind them, whether it's in London, Morocco, or the US, that can execute on the same level.

I think it's really come across here in terms of how you've approached the development of people, taking that really seriously, um, the markets that you're in, all of that. I think that's just really coming through, and it is really so fun, really fundamental if you want to go on this growth journey. Yeah, and bring people on. Um, tell me about 20 Minutes with Tay then. I think that goes in, right? Because we can talk about the playbook, the CLM way, but then keeping people engaged, keeping your best people is also this sort of stuff as well, isn't that?

Yeah, 100%. So from our standpoint, we value the opinion of our consultants, right? We value the opinion that everybody that's on the floor, not only about the business but about us as leaders. And it come about initially, well, I was having a conversation with our marketing manager Rosie because we do kind of town halls and quarterly wrap-ups, which are more kind of answering questions over email anonymously, sending them in. But really to be able to get on one par with the guys on the floor to understand kind of really what's happening. I wanted to be able to create something that was informal. And what we created was 20 Minutes with Tay, where I spend 20 minutes with every consultant in the business and we go for a walk, we go and have a coffee, whatever that may be, and we just talk. We talk about the business, we talk about performance, we talk about them, and I gain their feedback. And it was so powerful for us as a business to be able to understand exactly what's going on on the floor. but those guys feel comfortable enough to open up. Um, and I think that was so much better than just sending an email. We still do the email ones, but that was really, um, me spending time with each individual and understanding not only them, where they're at. And the conversation starts with, how are you? It doesn't start with, what's your thoughts on the business? How am I as a leader? What would you change? It's really, how are you? How's things? Really understanding what they're going through at that point, you know.

Yeah, it's subtle, but like, I get why, like, changing environment, going for different walks, just, it just massively helps.

Got my steps up, I can tell you that.

But like, just massively, because sometimes it can— I'm sure you've had it— sometimes it can be hard. Like, as a leader, you, you really want to understand what's important to that person, what drives them, all that. But sometimes it takes a bit of work, doesn't it? Not everyone is so forthcoming with that, and it's hard to uncover sometimes.

Like we want to grow as leaders. Like, everything we've done from launching the business today, we've learned on the job. Um, and for me now, it's really, really focused around the leadership, being somebody that can be turned to in times of need, but also turned to to learn. Um, and that's been something that's helped to really understand each individual outside of that kind of formal environment.

So throughout the— throughout these years then, how we said about conversation had at the beginning, said about that that exercise that you did a couple of years ago. How have you over time become really clear on the different responsibilities that you guys have? Because that's been quite key, hasn't it, through the years? Like, you being really clear out with the three of you what you're responsible for, just divvying up those aspects. Tell us a bit about that.

And yes, I think when we first started, you did a bit of everything, right? Um, and then when we got to the point when we're really ready to grow, we really took on the mentality of divide and um, and I think that's something that's been so important. We've set our roles within your business, what's best for the business as well, um, and then we trust each other to execute. So when we look at it from a standpoint of the three of us, we've got Jack focused on building a great business within the US, continuing to drive that. We've got myself that's been focusing on doing the same within the Europe standpoint, people development, sales, etc. And then we've had Callum that's took that more strategic role that's really focused on working with the support team, growing that, and being the visionary of where we want to go. And I think that's been so important in the growth of where we're going, um, because one, we trust each other to get it done, and then no one's kind of in each other's area. It's like, look, run with it, I know you're going to do well. And then when we have our board meetings, we run through it.

How do you hold each other accountable? Board meetings.

Board meetings, yeah. So at the end of our board meeting, we have a feedback session.

Really?

So it's monthly, or we do quarterly Quarterly. We have monthly catch-ups but quarterly boards. And at the end of that meeting, it would just be us three sitting there. And again, that radical honesty straight into feedback on each other. What's gone well? What's not? If anything's kind of rubbed us up the wrong way and get that out. Because you can dwell on things and all of a sudden if you don't address something, that builds up and you build it into this big picture of something it's not. So us addressing things straight away works. And I think that's the mentality we've had throughout the years and why us as a three have been able to work so well. As well.

When do you feel like you really— at what stage in the journey do you feel like you really divvied up those responsibilities? Because there is a bit of a stage where you've all got a chip in, haven't you? And do—

yeah, 100%. I would say if I look at it, probably— when did we do it? Maybe when the revenue dips, like the 3.1, was focused on the support team, the back office, building out the infrastructure. I think maybe end of that year. So what would that be? Start '24, maybe? Yeah, um, would have been there where we really focus on it because Jack went out January of '24 to Austin We opened Morocco then as well. So yeah, I'd say just before that, really, probably halfway through the year before, really focusing on this is what we need to do, let's be accountable, let's go.

Yeah. How do you feel about— how important do you think it is from your guys' perspective to like understand, like, Callum's position? Maybe it's a bit different, but how do you feel about it being really important to like lead from the front and show capability as a leader? Do you think that's important?

100%, right? It's about really Being in a position where everybody's bought into you, um, and not just leading from the front from a billing standpoint, but showing that you're there for them, you're in the trenches of them, you're not telling them things to do that you wouldn't. And for me, that's really important, really being the person that's in it with them. And I think that's something that we will continue to do through it. We're still, um, a nimble enough organization to do that, and we'll put that into all of our leaders to be able to make sure you're doing what you're saying. And proving to the guys, because you can lead by result, you can lead by expectation. And I think leading by results is going to be something that's going to drive everyone and get them bought into you, right? Because they want an inspirational leader. Yeah, they want someone they know they can trust.

I think just staying close to your customers is like a high leverage thing to do as well, isn't it?

Yeah, 100%. I think from our standpoint is that with anybody we work with, obviously the consultants have their partners that they work with. We always go out, meet with them, understand what's going on, understand their goings-on, really try and be part of their plans moving forward. And I think that's something, because where we have the guys that are skill set specific, they're on the floor speaking to candidates every day. We've got such a wealth of information that we can pass on to the customer. Because what you don't realize— and we actually had the conversation today in a training session that we did— even though these executives have been in it for 30, 40 years, they still see us as the experts. And it says in the name, right, Recruitment Consultant. We consult. It's about giving them the information to be able to kind of enable their success.

Yeah, I think I always remind recruiters that you really underestimate how many executives that you speak to on a daily, weekly basis versus how many an executive would. Yeah, like, don't overlook that because all of those— in all that information, all of those conversations, unless you've got an executive that's intentionally going out of their way to meet other executives, maybe there's a handful of people that they know that have, you know, got to where they want to get to or in a similar spot. Yeah. And there's just so much information in that that people would find interesting, insightful, useful?

Yeah, every leader needs experts, right? If you look at it, no business is just set up with a CEO. There's always a leadership team that, uh, focus in a certain area, whether it be, um, finance, whether it be operations. There's always an expert that owns an area that contributes to the overall success.

So going into future then, what— obviously we've, we've added another recruitment company within the group. Yep, that's obviously been intentional.

Yep.

So tell us a bit about what— talking about how you guys have got better as, as a, as 3 different business partners, really, like you said, dividing and conquering. But then part of that as well is remaining aligned to like where we're going. Obviously I feel like that this is part of it in terms of bringing in a recruitment business in the group. Just talk to us a bit about what you're doubling down on and almost like looking ahead And yeah, you can factor that in as well in terms of why you rolled that into the, the group.

Yeah, so from our standpoint, from day one we agreed that we're not building a lifestyle business. We're building something great. Um, for us, we want to build something that's memorable and for something that outlasts us, and that's really, really important for us. Um, and to do that, obviously you've got to look into the future, right? So we're not planning for it now, but one day we'd love for there to be interest from investors, private equity, to come in and basically tell us you've built something great and now we want it. Um, and when you're looking in that mentality, perm businesses don't always get the best multipliers. Um, and that's because it can be focused around specific customers, it's not consistent in terms of revenue, or it could be an individual builder that does all that, and if they leave, the business goes down, right? So by having a contract business, that's recurring revenue. That's something when they can look at it and can see for the next 24 months, whether this consultant stays or not, that's always there. There. Um, and for us, we wanted to be able to do that. Um, we didn't go looking for it. It was something that kind of fell on top of us. We met two individuals that are absolutely fantastic in terms of Joe and Dave. Um, really, really wealthy in terms of knowledge, in terms of renewable areas, in wind. Um, and we liked them and we invested in it. And that's something now that is paying off. They'll be closing out their first year coming into Q1 of next year. And in terms of contract businesses, they're doing things that other businesses don't do within their first year. So they've already kind of wiped their nose in a sense, and we're seeing now just how much of an integral part of the business that's going to be. And I don't just mean from the contract business, but from those two as leaders, how they've gelled. Um, and also at the end of the day, if someone does have interest in us, we do have a contract arm now which increases multiplier, which makes us more interesting. But the reason we didn't put it into CLM, one was because those guys needed their own identity. But also, like I said earlier about the story, the DNA of the business, an offshore wind business didn't fit into that. It touches energy and renewables slightly, but that's something now where we've set up that contract business part of the group. We're now set up for contract moving forward if we do find that within our energy practice, within our manufacturing practice, within tech. Yeah, so it's been something that's been great for the overall organization.

And I think with the stage that you're at, it's never like huge changes, massive decisions we need to make. It's often like do more of what we're doing but better, marginal gains, as you said. What— because I'm sure you've been thinking about what's been the sort of messages in terms of internally, what you're doubling down on, what you're really trying to make sure everyone remains laser focused on that's going to keep making sure that CLM goes in the direction that you want it to going into next year.

From our side, it's about one of the massive things is trusting in the process, right? There's a difference between trusting in the process and insanity. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, whereas trusting in the process is your blueprint for success. You know it's going to work, it's just a matter of time. So for that, for us, it's about hiring, making sure we're hiring great people that can add to the value of the business and add to the culture of the business, doubling down in the areas that we're in. We don't want to open any new areas. We want to make sure we're known to be the number one, the best within the spaces that we're already um, and then outside of that, we want to see everybody internally succeed. Um, for me, for the boys as well, it's a case of we've been there, done the billions. It's now about seeing each individual succeed. So seeing individuals in the business pay off their wedding in a comms check, individuals that are earning ridiculous money at the moment that can do what they want and have that part of freedom, and just seeing individuals grow. Um, and that's what you want to do. We want to have a melting pot of great billers, but also that enables them to be able to do whatever they want in life. And that's when we'll see the success.

Yeah, I've, I've no doubt you're, you guys are gonna get there. I think it's really, if you think of how this business started out of circumstances changing unexpected, to then what you've, what you've built so far, what you've learned, people you've impacted Pretty cool story.

100%.

I feel like just getting started as well.

Do you know what it is? It's like I said earlier, we don't really celebrate the success as well, right? It's been something where we actually have to take a step back and say, oh, we've achieved a lot of in the last 6 years. But for us now, it's great seeing people come through. I know we spoke about her earlier, but Jenny, who we have in the business, that was hired in year 2. We're now up nearly 6 years in. She just surpassed a million as a perm biller with an automotive, which is unknown alone. And from her to go from delivery consultant to AD within that period of time just shows how prevalent it is in terms of trusting the process, understanding, becoming that expert, and building relationships. We've got other stories of Dan that joined in semicon, did his— the best first 6 months we've seen in the business. He's more of like a maverick, takes in the CLM way, molds it into his own. I talked about Conrad earlier that was within energy and hydrogen, winning RPO after RPO, being our top biller, um, and now helping Jack build the US. So for us, that's kind of the journey we're seeing and want to keep building individuals to be able to do that. And that's why in the areas we're in, doubling down, we're going to see that success.

It's hard, right? But like, it's stories like that that just, just give you the biggest fulfillment and satisfaction despite all the challenges that come with it as well. You know, I'm having those internal stories.

That's what it's all about though, right? It's about kind of of— it's the whole journey of us, of 6 years. There's been ups, there's been downs, um, we've learned on the job, but it's the most exciting thing. We've achieved this in this period of time. For me, there's no ceiling. It's just about if we continue to do the right things, we can continue to grow, grow, grow, and that's what excites us.

Love it. So it's been a pleasure, mate. Thanks for joining me.

No problem, mate. Enjoyed it.