300 People, 5 Brands, 0 Private Equity: LHI’s Blueprint to £47M GP with Ben Richardson & Mike Botty

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Thanks. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

I haven't used this studio before. It's pretty cool. Being able to catch you also whilst you're both in the UK and really looking forward to getting into this LHI story. I think along the way in doing this podcast, I've had different people that have worked for the business, but today we're going to really get into the detail of what do we believe LHI Group has done really well to get to the point where we are today. Because whenever I sit down with people like yourselves, what you guys have achieved as a business is like under the 1% in, in the recruitment industry. So there'll be a lot of people out there really interested in hearing how you guys believe you've achieved that, what you've done well, what you've had to learn the hard way. So what we're really going to try and achieve in this conversation is one, talk about this co-CEO structure. We're going to hit that head on because I've never sat down with co-CEOs before. So I'm going to talk about that. We're also going to talk about, um, EOT, so employee-owned trust, which is the avenue that LHR Group went down. So I'm going to talk a bit about what that means, how that works. And then we've got a couple of areas that we feel are really essential to your journey. So we're going to talk about the people part. How do we hire people, retain people? A huge, huge thing that you guys are passionate about are bringing in entry-level talent into the, into the industry. So I'm going to talk about how we've done that. And also in there, I think we've got the current you, future you. That's a big philosophy, um, in this business. Then going to talk about this market strategy. Like, you guys have different brands in this business, so we're going to talk about how intentional have you been with that, what have been the lessons there, how much has that helped the journey. Also definitely want to geek out on performance data. I think when you're an organization of your size, this is something that you have to be religious with, take very seriously. So we're gonna dive into that. And then lastly, we're gonna really get into the minds of you guys to think about how do you guys believe you're gonna grow next year, what you're doubling down on, what you're doing more of. Uh, there, there are chapters here we're gonna work for, lots to unpack. So just to give everyone a bit of context, let me know if I get any of this wrong, so feel free to correct any, any part of this. I always like to say that. So LHR Group was started by Tom Glanfield in 2002. If anyone that doesn't know, uh, started as one brand called Lawrence Harvey. That's the, the longest-standing, uh, brand. You're now 5 specialist brands. So we've got Cypro, which is life sciences. I've got here 2014, question mark. I wasn't sure exactly when that started. Yeah, about right now. Uh, Piper Maddox, energy and renewables, 2016, says on the website.

Okay.

Hob Harrison, built environment, again 2015. Actually, that was started with Adele, wasn't it? Who I met a while ago. And then XPS Consulting. Oh no, XPS is your consulting brand. I've got 2022 question mark. I wasn't sure exactly when that started.

Yeah, probably, we probably first had XPS when IR35 came in. So was that 2020-ish, I think?

Okay, around that.

But it's become a consultant, more of a genuine consulting brand more recently. So 23, 24.

Understood. So today, in terms of where we're at, circa 300 people. 9 offices across UK, Europe, US. For the last, I think we put 2, 3 years, we've been circa £45 million GP in that sort of range, roughly. So offices, just because I think there's a useful context, we've got London, Manchester, Munich, Berlin, Bristol, New York, Austin, LA, Miami.

Yep.

Yep.

Is that right? Nailed it. Okay, awesome. And then just because then we can just dive straight into it, I'm going to give people a bit of context on EOT, employee-owned trust. So this sort of part of the journey all happened in publicly announced March 2022, around that period. So this was all done on 2021's performance, right? So they're the numbers that I've got here. So we had the business circa valued around £80 million. At this time we had 8 offices in the business, around circa 150-200 people at the time of the deal. The GP around that time was around £37 million. Roughly 60% perm, 40% contract split across the business. Um, and we took on this EOT structure, which I'm going to get you guys to, to talk about. And I think that's the context. So, yeah, sorry to put like how all of this hard work over the years into a few bullet points, but at least everyone's got an up-to-date picture of like where we're at, some of the important parts. Um, so Ben, I'll come to you first if that's okay. Like, because I know people will be wondering this, and a few people, uh, came to me, uh, asked me this when I spoke to my network around, right, I'm sitting down with Ben and Botty, LHR Group, this is the story, what would you be interested in me asking? Talk to us about this co-CEO structure. So like, why the co-CEO? Why? I think a lot of people be thinking like, why can't this role be done by one person? Yeah, because you had Jim Denning, the BCO, for 5, circa 5 years.

Yeah.

So just talk to us about, from your perspective, co-CEO, why that structure. Yeah, let's just sort of talk about this for a second. Sure.

I think, well, firstly, I'd say, uh, Jim did an amazing job for the 5 or 6 years that he was CEO. Took us through our event, guided us through COVID, uh, lots of growth. So it was amazing to have him. Um, and when he decided that it was the right time to sort of take a sideways step, he's still in the business. He's a director of Future You coaching for us, so still remains in the business. Um, we basically were exploring different options. James Ash, our chairman, alongside the executive board, so our CFO, um, and Tom, our founder, were basically exploring the options. Um, and I think what you find with me and Botty is we've, we've got very complementary, very different skill sets. So, um, you've got two people that are obsessed with the business, love the business, but have really, really clear swim lanes. And I think we'd almost be doing the business a bit of a disservice if if we weren't both in the positions that we're in. So it just sort of worked out well, it panned out well, it made sense. We don't split the business US and Europe, even though I'm based in the US. So we're global, both of us are global. And yeah, it just plays really nicely with our personalities. Nice.

Well, say anything to add to that one? Because I'm sure people ask you, co-CEO, what's this all about? How come you're co-CEOs?

I always try and give the same analogy. I think it gives us the opportunity, especially both of us, to work 80, 85% of the job we do week in, week out is in our, it's what we believe are our superpowers, if you like, our key strengths. And you don't get dragged into other areas when you're, that you're not maybe as strong in. Some of the areas that Ben does, it's like, yeah, fine, that's definitely your lane. It's unbelievable how you do that. And then there's obviously clearly areas of mine Ben's like, oh, you go all in on that. And so I think the team therefore gets the best of both worlds, in my opinion. The fact that we've both been here from graduate upwards, the fact we've worked together for God, what, 12, 14, 14 years? Yeah, 14 years, like, alongside each other for a lot of that. Like, we do know each other really well from that perspective. I definitely know what's his swim lane and what's mine. So I think, uh, yeah, hopefully. And then I'd hope, you know, 5 months in, I think the team would say right now it's working okay.

I love it. So just because I think this will be helpful, and then feel free to, uh, correct me here, but Botti, you're— because I guess like that is absolutely crucial if we're gonna have a setup like this where you're both really clear on, yeah, like what your lanes are. Obviously there's going to be a lot of crossover, but, but to your, like, where you would excel, where you believe your superpowers are, is driving performance standards, that, that bucket. Yeah.

So all the office leaders report directly into me, uh, as well as the commercial team as well. So anything that basically is around sales performance, uh, accountability is, is basically in all my, in my wheelhouse. Ben describes it as what the heart— I do the heartbeat, I make it tick every day, and then Ben's got a future plan ahead.

And then Ben, you're— I think the way that you said it to you is like everything isn't that strategy, forward thinking. Yeah. What else would you add to that in terms of like your real superpowers that you spend a lot of time on?

Yeah, so I always go like Botty said, I always say like the heartbeat or the engine of the business is Botty to make sure it's running smoothly, and then I'm sort of the steering wheel and just making sure we're going in the right direction. So succession planning, right people, right seats, um, some of the strategy behind the markets and the different areas they're going into, um, anything that sits outside of like the quarter. So anything that's like 6 months, 12 months in advance, um, a lot like the group comms. So I typically lead a lot of the group comms, um, alongside Botti as well. So yeah, we've got quite good clear swim lanes so we don't tread on each other's toes. And when we do, we're comfortable enough to, to call each other out pretty, pretty quickly as well.

Yeah, it only works if like you got to be prepared to leave your ego so far out the door. Like, it is We're here for the betterment of the business. And that's got whatever we do, that's got to be our mindset moving into every decision we do. And that's against our own ego, then so be it. You've got to get on with it because I think that's critical to what we're going to do.

Let's talk about this EOT structure. So like, I think, Ben, I'll ask you when we prepared for this because I think not everyone will be familiar with that. I definitely haven't sat down with anyone on this podcast that went down that route and going down the employee-owned trust. I think I asked you guys, I don't know how many other, I don't know if you've looked, but yeah, I don't know how many other recruitment companies have gone down that route. But how would you, for us all to understand what this means, like how would you explain an employee-owned trust to like a 10-year-old? Like how would you give us a go at that? Like so we can all be on the same page and what that actually means. Sure, I'll give it a go.

So when we were looking to go to market in 2021, We're exploring all the different options. So you've got like your private equity or your VC route, you've got your family funds, you've got trade sales where you can go through. And we basically stumbled across the EOT, which in essence means that you can sell the business to a trust. The trust is formed by basically anyone that's been in the business for longer than 12 months. Um, so you can sell the business to the trust, and instead of the trust having to dig into their own pockets to pay for it, you can raise debt with a partner. So it could be a bank, which is the route that we went down. So you ultimately raise raise debt with a bank, you buy the business. So at the time we bought 80% of the business from Tom Glanfield, who was the founder, and then we use EOT as basically the vehicle to do that financial transaction. So it basically meant that we kept complete control and ownership of the business. So no board seats changed. We had no external influence telling us how to run the business, cutting commission schemes, changing incentive trips. So we basically just had complete control, autonomy, and it meant we could run the business how we wanted. So that was the route that we decided to go down.

And then what would you say, or— because I think straight away for anyone, even if you recruit in an industry where there's a lot of venture capital investment, I think one of— from what I can see in my conversations sitting down with people that went down that route— one of the, the challenging parts that can come with it is having to manage expectations to the new board member. They're like, we put— we've, you know, they're, they're backing you for future gains and they're like, we're not, you know, we should be more along than we should be. We need to cut costs, we need to do this. So that is, I can imagine, a really huge plus that there's no like board seats given up here in terms of to like who you're getting the money from. For sure. But just keeping it real here, what would you say so far have been like then, there's always trade-offs, right? What would you say have been the challenges? You said like how it sets up and deposit is from that. What would you say are some of the challenges that come with going down down this route from an EOT perspective, do you think?

That's a good question.

I don't know if I thought about the challenges that come with it.

I think you don't have as much of an injection of investment. So you don't go, cool, on the day that we did a deal, we didn't say, right, we're going to launch in 10 more offices and we're going to triple our headcount. And so I think some of the other businesses that have gone down that route, you typically see them blow up quite quickly afterwards because they've got a lot of money to invest straight away. Whereas for us, that wasn't necessarily the route and the direction that we wanted to go. Um, so that's probably a pretty big one.

I think, uh, probably one thing that sticks out was probably year one comps, because obviously they see that opportunity and what the number looks like per level. And we were quite open about what, what you'd be entitled to on the next event. And therefore you have that challenge of, are you here because you, you're just here for the event, or you're here because you're trying to build something and add to what we're trying to do? And, and we had to go through quite an interesting transition of getting We went very heavy on the EOT comms into market, you know, headhunting, trying to attract people. And we're slowly moving that, I guess, that communication to a bit more of a case of that's a cherry on top when we do that deal and the business is in the best health to do the next deal.

Um, no, no, no, using your drawing and it's like you said, the cherry on top.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we had to go through that journey. I think that's a good learn to look back on. Would we have managed it differently? Not, not all of it, but I definitely think we probably would've drip fed that through the business rather than go big and shiny. We've done a deal, which is great for the 109 people that were part of the first deal. Now everyone's going to be part of the second deal if you've been here 12 months longer. And this is a timeline. And it's like, as soon as you say a timeline, everyone's like, what's got to happen on that day? And you're like, I really wish it was that easy.

That is a good point because I didn't say that as well. So I guess a huge benefit of being part of the EOT is that we were able to say that as long as you're a part of the EOT, when we do our next financial transaction, you'll be a beneficiary of that deal. So the whole business, top to bottom, as long as you've been with the business for 12 months, you're a beneficiary of it. So to Mike's point, like that communication when we first announced it, everyone's looking at a shiny number in front of them, thinks, wow, that's incredible. And it can sort of deter away from what made the business what it is today.

And then is that, just so understand how it works. So like when that deal happened, And you're talking about the numbers there, like because you've been with us for this long, this is what that means. Is that then basically projected like that's what you'll get over X period of time? It's, I'm assuming it's not, you just pay that out from day one or I don't know, how does it?

Depending on who we do that next event with will determine how that gets paid. And you'll get an X amount upfront of that overall number. And then like we did at the first deal, you every 6 months is normally kind of, you'll pay that down.

Because I put that, The reason why I think this is important stat, it's less about, oh my God, how much do people make and stuff like that, but I'm sure you guys will be aware, a very typical carrot that great recruiters get put in front of them is, we're going to sell the business, this is going to happen, we're going to give you shares. But we've spoken about it a lot on this podcast because I think sometimes, like a big part of your model, right, you bring people through that start their careers with you. With that comes naivety and being told, right, I'm gonna have shares in the business. That's, that's a great thing, right? And absolutely something you should be proud of. But then when you start educating yourself on it, it's like, hang on there, like, that doesn't really mean anything unless maybe there's a profit shares part of that that I could get some extra benefit, or if there's going to be— if there's a clear plan to get on this journey to like an event. And as I said earlier, when I last sort of— because I sat down with, uh, the guys, the ex-TIG Consult partners, Mark and Graham, it's like under 1% of the recruitment companies is from what you can get available online that have been through that. So it's very common carrot that doesn't actually materialize for a lot of people, which is why I think this is important to have a bit of a chat about it. But this, the number I put down, let me know if this is wrong, but we put down 85 beneficiaries. So what, so does that mean 85 people?

Yeah, 85 left in the business from the first. Sorry, right, so 109 people on day one got, got, were given some sort of value. Yeah. Um, and then of that 109, there are still 85 left in the business.

Still in the business.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, right, got you. So that ties back to what we're talking about with one of the challenges that come with this is, are people just here for that, right?

Okay, something we have to juggle for sure. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's a really good stat for us to dig into just ever so slightly, is to your point, the number of recruitment businesses that actually go to market and actually do a deal, raise capital, are so slim. And people say to us, um, you know, is the EOT real? What does the EOT really mean? There's a lot, I think there's a lot of doubters out there, but maybe what a lot of them don't realize is from that first deal, we've already shown that we know how to pay out. So of those 109 beneficiaries from the first deal, we've now, 3 years on, we've now paid out 85% of everyone's—

That was the normal—

Day one money.

That 85%.

So that, you know, that is a huge number. That means that we've actually been able to recognize 85% of that person's, shareholding at the point of doing the deal.

So that's the real stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. That's quite doing a deal. But how many people would you hear do a deal, get 30% day one, and you ask them, cool, well, how many in the next 5 years? Like, oh, we're still trying to find the number to go and get any more money, which I think—

Yeah. So what you just said there was, I don't know exactly how it would've worked, but if I was part of the journey, there might've been some sort of tool or dashboard or something I would've seen as like, I could be like paid this. —and you'll see—

You get a certificate. So literally the day we did a deal, everyone got a certificate of saying like what their equity was worth. Right. And then day 1, I think it was 20% or 25% was paid out on day 1. Yeah. And then over the course of, we try to do it every 6 months, just depending on how we're trading, we try to continuously pay out as much as we can.

Cool. Yeah. Now that was the 80 number I was looking at. 85%. Yeah. And then the other thing on this then, before we really get into what we believe we've done really well to get to this point, I think the other thing that comes with going down a route like this is then the performance, the performance of the business after. So Ben, I'll come to you on this, but anything to share for people listening that are looking for what their exit strategy looks like, or this is really good education for them, where what happens, because I think the analogy that you gave me, it's almost like you've taken on like a mortgage, right? Because you pay the bank X amount per quarter, right? Yep. For that debt financing. Yep. What are the performance pressures, if there are any? So they're obviously, in really simple terms, let me know if you feel like it's different, but they're happy to lend you the money because they're confident the return they're going to get and they back what they're giving the money to as an entity and what it's going to return. Yep. But there's always risk. So what happens if the business starts not performing? How much, like, how does that work? Because that is what comes with you get that external investment, you're not performing, there's going to be pressure, right? Which is the challenge. So how does that work in like an EOT setup?

Yeah, good question. So we have banking covenants that we have to meet to make sure that we're able to continuously pay back what we need to pay. But I think what's probably more important, so we have that and our CFO is, I think, one of the best in the industry and is on top of that and does an amazing job making sure we're ticking the boxes. But I think internally, just between me and Botti and the other leaders we've got across the business, we hold ourselves to such a high standard that sort of the bank covenants is almost like secondary to the standard that we're trying to drive internally. So we try not to pay too much attention to that and focus on making sure that we're setting the bar where we think we can get to. So what is bank covenant? What does that mean? Sorry. There's just certain metrics that they want to basically see on a month-to-month, quarter-to-quarter basis to make sure that we're healthy and in a position to pay back. The money that we've raised over time.

And is that strictly, is that typically strictly financial? Like, do they also like want to see performance, like performance in the business, or is it just performance from a financial standpoint? Are the typical numbers—

it's mainly the numbers that they want to see, isn't it? Like, as long as they're seeing like positive numbers month to month, quarter to quarter, as long as the flow-through is good. So if our GP's at a certain level and we're, we're we're seeing X flow through, come through onto the bottom line and EBIT, then we're normally, they're normally pretty happy.

Nice, love it. I think, I think that's, that's like a good amount on the EOT stuff, I reckon. Yeah, I think, yeah, that'd be really— I mean, I know people are going to be curious about this stuff, so I'm sure you guys are gonna be more than happy to answer any questions if people reach out. 100%. Like, because I think, like I said, don't know how many other recruitment businesses— I haven't interviewed everyone, so I don't know how many other people out there have gone down that route.

Yeah, it took me a good like 6 to 12 months to be able to articulate and understand it fully. Yeah, so it's, it's a difficult one.

So should we get into this, this people part? Because I do feel like this is one of the real— I mean, it's core pillar of any business really. So can we, if it's okay with you guys, let's start with the entry-level model piece because I think right now and going into 2026 This has been like really challenged, I feel like, in terms of if we were sitting in 100 recruitment business boardrooms about planning for next year, how many, how many boardrooms are going to be talking about their hiring strategy being the entry-level model? I don't know. I'd probably say it's going to be less than maybe it was a couple of years ago. So this is something that you guys, it's absolutely pivotal and at the core of your business. So many of your leadership team have been started the business like you guys. So Ben, I can come to you on this, or, but if you think you're a better place, but I'd love to just geek out for a second on your hiring process because I think this is the part where a lot of people fall short, I feel like, or where there can be some good education. So like, give us like how, if, if I start my, um, career with you guys and I'm a grad, what is that hiring process? Because I'm sure this has to be pretty dialed. I'm sure it can always improve and it's more at the point of marginal gains now. Yeah. But like, what does that hiring journey look like? What does that hiring process look like from start to finish? Because you must have really thought about this long and hard with it being absolutely crucial to your business.

I think, uh, jump straight into that. I think first and foremost, it comes down to how you're interviewing the individual. Like, so many people will ask surface-level questioning, whereas we've got a pretty detailed plan of testing traits, testing characteristics of what we believe over the years are the right characteristics, traits in individuals that lend itself to recruitment. Give us those then. What are your non-negotiables? Non-negotiables? Do you know what? I know everyone always asks me because how I interview versus how Ben will interview can still be very different. But let's just say if it's for my team specifically, so I want, let's just say I want someone with salesmanship. Okay. So you go, oh, how do you test if they've got salesmanship? I'll talk to, let's say they've done a degree. What's your hardest part of your degree you've worked in? Now you've got 30 seconds to make me understand it. Go. It's like, that's not only to do recruitment, but that's a specialist subject they should know, like a job spec. It's also their ability to think on their feet in an interview, pretty pressured. And then obviously if they can't articulate that to me, well, that's their specialist subject, they should have done a degree in it. If you've went to university, not everyone goes to university, which is why the idea of a question that ultimately gives you a completely different thought process. They're not thinking about recruitment, they're not selling me a pen or anything like that. They are, we are literally testing qualities of how they can transfer the quality because 99 times out of 100, they haven't done recruitment. In fact, at grad level, 100 times out of 100. So therefore, when I'm not looking for a recruiter, I'm looking for traits and characteristics that I can then use into the team I'm trying to build. We're also very deliberate in the teams. I don't just need grade, you know, A, like an A mentality, you know, red energy, really direct. Like you don't need 10 people in a team like that. We think you need a diversification of that, whether that's male, female, whether that's backgrounds, where you come from, etc., etc. We do believe there's a kind of a good makeup for a team. I don't want 10 lads all from central London in one team. Dynamic-wise, it doesn't really suit what we are as a business. Um, so being deliberate in that. But going back to the original question, it's all about the interview. It starts with the interview and making sure the people we bring in We fundamentally, if an offer is given, we 100% at the time we've given that offer believe they've got the right characteristics to be successful. Then my job with our managers and leaders, and Ben's to be fair, but my, in my wheelhouse is your job is to make them successful.

Okay. Let's break this down a bit then. So what are we doing? We could go for hours. So we're doing a phone stage interview phase, like just give us the interview process.

Yeah, TA will do a full screening and give their notes. And then that individual will be earmarked depending on which teams are on hiring triggers that we run to which per— which where they're best suited from a personality perspective and from kind of where the biggest need is. And then it'll go to office leader and manager.

Okay. So what, 3-stage? Do you do anything? Cause I sat down with, um, Ollie, who used to work for Faden, obviously again, a huge like, uh, approach on the Grab model. They, they used to do like a work experience type thing. Have you tried that? Yeah, you do any of that someday?

Bristol are massive on, uh, cultural fit. It's really important for them. They, they won't make an offer to anyone that hasn't like come out socially and they've met on a social environment outside of the office, which works really well for them. We do give each office leader a bit, a bit of wiggle room. It's not as process as I think some people think it is. I think you've got to be able to put your own personality because you can look for different things in different people.

I think that is a bit of the, a bit of the trick as well though, is like each office have their own— they have the LHI DNA, but they have their own brand and their way of doing things. So it doesn't make sense for us to dictate this is how you do your interview process. So Kevin in New York might do something slightly different to Tom in Bristol and Sue in London. And so they get to put their personality into the interview process as well to make sure that person fits into what that office is going to feel like.

And then what would be— because I just feel like this is just so— from what I've seen, I do really get your point in terms of the different offices having, uh, their own flexibility. But like you just said, their, the LHR DNA, like surely that, like that has to be in place if we're getting anywhere near 100+ people. Like we have to be, especially when we're hiring people that haven't done recruitment before. Yeah, because what if every manager was looking for something different? So like, what, what, so what are those traits for you guys? Because I think that's just helpful to hear. Is it coachability? Is it personal responsibility?

I don't know, like what? Again, it goes back to what your team's been up on first off. But if you're building a brand new team from scratch, for me it would be, you know, work ethic, salesmanship, um, process, procedure. I'll be testing how they've done that in their daily life, how they work, etc. Okay. Their traits for me that I like to be able to see that I can use into recruitment. Okay. Um, I think the one thing everyone loses in recruitment a lot of time is like, anyone can be successful in recruiting. I'm my belief system, right? You can, we have people in our business that are, you know, super in your face, loud, like very successful. We have quiet, very people that are like really introverted to a point, but are also mega successful. If you put a box around people at interview stage. Then, and you only hire one type of person. Like, for us, that's not— we've kind of been there before in the past, and it just doesn't work. I think you've got to be able to see something in that individual you want to hire. There has to be a personal connection if your team personally— and that is people to people. And I think, like, the DNA is what do we look for from an attitude perspective? What, what are we doing to selling that opportunity to them? Is that— does that get them excited? They want to have to come and join you, right? This is our environment. This is how we work. This is our culture. We're not probably the easiest in the world to work for. You know, it's not an 8:30 to 5:30 sort of business, right? And so we give them all the reasons not to join us, but the hard work you put in ultimately then leads to the success stories. And we've got a number of them to put, you know, that we can call upon. And that's what we use as a sell point.

I think when I was going to say as well, when you think of LHI DNA and how we make sure it's present in all the offices. The philosophies that we've spoken about. So the younger you philosophy, the future you philosophy, and we talk about great humans a lot. And great humans is maybe a little cheesy, but it comes up a lot. Like people say, you know, I've been here for 6 months and I actually can't believe how well I get on with everyone. There aren't any dickheads, there aren't any people that they don't get on with or they clash with. And so you put those 3 philosophies alongside high performance and you have a pretty good basis of like a DNA in each of the offices. And then on top of that, the office leaders will sprinkle their own personality and And that's how we sort of, and that goes back to the point like around tenure, isn't it?

Because the people that are talking about what is the DNA of LHI are people that have been here longer. Yeah. Yeah. And so therefore, maybe it's not.

Yeah. I just thought, to be fair, I thought there's gonna be some, like a lot of science. It seems it's not as science. You've got a process, obviously. Yeah.

I mean, everyone gets training on how good conducting good interview, et cetera. And we go through what traits we want to see and what have been successful, et cetera. But it's people to people. Yeah. And that's what makes it really interesting.

Other bits on this, and I think people will be interested in, have we— do— so do we run— so have you done like assessment centers? Do we do that or not really? No, we've done roughly—

we've done like group interviews before, but we've never really stuck to it, have we? So no.

Do we typically like to— do we have like, uh, academies? So do we like to have people, X number of people typically start Like, ideal would be start a good amount, a number of people will start at the same time.

Yeah, that's, that's one from an internal perspective, is optimizing your L&D team and optimizing— everyone knows there's a cohort coming in at certain dates. It's easier for marketing account, everyone to plan around certain dates, a lot easier to do. But just from a people perspective, way more successful. Yeah, let's just talk about that.

Let's just talk about then, because I think this is the other important part. I, I start with LHR, I get the job.

Yeah, let's just talk about this sort of speed to competency, speed to profitability.

Have you how you guys think about that. So there's one element, I might start my job with a group of other people. Yep. There's, from my conversations and how I see that, there's loads of different benefits to that. I think instantly, from a company perspective, you can see how people can compare way more easily. Yeah. If you've got, even if it's just two people starting at the same time versus one. Like you just said, you've got that one-to-many benefit of like, we can really maximize our internal resources because they're helping all of these different people at the same time. Yep. Um, let's talk about that, that journey. So typically, I know it might really vary, but you might have figured this out over time. Academy numbers to like one L&D person, or like, how do we think about that? What's a good ratio there where it might get to a point where it's really hard to do a really good job if there's like 30 people in there?

Depends how good your L&D person is, right? Uh, and your managers and everything else. But I mean, let's say 5 to 8 per one L&D. It's like, as a first company our size as well, if we're getting an 8 grad intake into London. And that's still quite significant versus the 85 people that are in the business. 10% join on one day. So I think that for us is you've got to make sure that's being managed. I'd say the trick or the snippets I would always say to anyone in recruitment is hire graduates into markets that have already been worked. Never put a graduate in a new market. That's a golden rule. So they will always work a market that we know with a manager that's also hands-on working that market. That is a non-negotiable across the whole business. Because we've done it the other way. I've gone, I'll try and see if that market's moving. It's like, you don't need to put a grad doing that. So quick learn. Um, and then they are assigned to their manager, but in the cohort, they will work. They have a very set L&D program they would run through called Ignition over the first 3 months, which is all their first few months is literally blocked out of what they're doing. Pretty deliberate.

I think we're super lucky from an L&D standpoint. Like we have an amazing L&D squad. They're spread out as well. So we've got someone in LA, someone in Austin, someone in New York, someone in London, someone in Bristol. So from a coverage standpoint, 80% of people's onboarding and training in their first sort of 3, 4 months will typically be in person. And if it's not in person, then the L&D person will travel. So Miami, for example, they don't have a full-time L&D person, but Harrison from LA flew over to Miami and did a week to help with the new cohort over there. So In that in-person, yeah, uh, interaction I think is super important. Yeah, and they're super invested in the development of the cohort as well. So I always think of Jack in Bristol, he's so, so, so bought into his cohort and driving them through the business, taking them to the next level. Um, so it isn't just like classroom and then spit them out into the wild west. They're actually— they're going on a journey with their—

with the L&D person as well, which I think everyone then gets obviously Um, not categorize, that sounds awful. Everyone then gets like write-ups on that individual that goes to the manager of like, these, these are things we're working on. That's a development area. That's development area. So this could also get very much tailored to the individual. Someone like, I'm quite confident I would have been a grad who'd gone, just give me a phone, let's go. I'd have been very confident, but finesse might have been lacking. Might still be lacking, to be fair. Uh, um, it's something that like the coach and Alan Deeper was like, might need to ask better questions, more open questions. That gets fed back to management. And so therefore you're all working as a collective. Yeah, it has to be an all-in thing.

So the, so the, is, is it like the first 3 months L&D is fully responsible for those?

No. Okay. Managers are still responsible. The L&D there are there as a support function, but a massive support function, obviously.

Let's just get into, and then final bit on this then would just be, Ben, I'll come to you on this. Like, how do we, how do we feel if we just pull this back down to like data? and numbers. Like, how do we think about this in terms of what do you typically work to in terms of like, I don't know, you tell me the metrics. Like, is it, do you do speed to competency times profitability? Like, talk to us a bit about that. Cause I feel like this is really key to understand if we're getting this right.

Yeah. I think that, so the main 3 that I look at, and we've actually been talking about, um, in our strategy sessions at the end of this year, time to first deal, time to third deal, and then time to first promotion. So, and we don't have, we don't say the time to first deal needs to be this number. We just want there to be some intent behind what the leader's doing. So the time to first deal in Miami will be significantly different to the time to first deal in Berlin because the leaders have different intentions. The Berlin leader wants someone to get to the bell as quickly as possible to feel that instant gratification, to learn the process and to go through it. Whereas where in Miami, And the leader wants the person to go through the motions, to understand that the BD side of the job is really, really hard and to work through that. And so we don't say either is right or wrong. We just want there to be an intention behind their time to first deal. Time to first deal shows a little bit more competence. Typically that's when we start to see it be the first 360 deal, depending on where they sit. And then time to first promotion, I think is a really important metric to be able to tell anyone that's joining your business. Like if you join our business, we'll get you promoted in this time.

That's what it looks like. Okay, let's talk about— Ben, I can come back to you on, on this, or boy, if you want to jump in, but let's talk about this, this younger you, future you part. Because like I said, spoke to— wanted to really try and make sure I understood what other recruitment leaders would be really interested in this conversation. And a big part of that is we don't get anywhere near what you guys have achieved about keeping your best people. And I felt like when we prepared for this, this was quite sort of fundamental and something that if I was in your business, I would have heard quite a lot about. Yeah, I think you mentioned, I think you said it, Ben, but this is like, do you say Jim's birth child maybe? I mean, yeah, he even got on his LinkedIn like future you coach.

Future you coach. I mean, that is his title. Yeah, so we can't claim. No, unfortunately we can't claim. This is a good one.

This is sticky.

Yeah, future you, future you and young you, we can't claim.

But so how should you talk, how should you talk about this? Do you wanna sort of, what does that mean maybe at the first point? And then maybe what that why it's crucial to retention.

Do you want to do younger you and I'll do future you?

Go for it. So younger you, basically your philosophy is ultimately around making the journey of the next person that comes into the business better than yours. It's as simple as that. So that can be divided in many different ways, but you're ultimately meant to give them the best environment you possibly can. As a manager, your job is to create a great environment, make sure they've got a hot seat, hot desk with jobs to work, ideally, or at least a way, avenue into that market. And full support. So they— your job is to make whatever you ever— you felt in that first 3, 6 months, your job is to make that person that's into your team feel better than you did. It is literally as simple as that, but it lives and breathes through everything we do. So the way they're treated, the way they go out for lunches, all their integration, all their touch points in the business is all about making the young youth better and better year on year, cohort on cohort. We're trying to get better at everything we do. From that experience standpoint, not just the recruitment learning standpoint. I love that.

So that's just something that you could consistently—

is a message that's— I think it's in every office, on every wall, we talk about every, every bit of literature we've got. Every time before you do a kickoff, we'll talk about the Young You Future.

We have end of year awards. Yeah, Young You Award. Um, so yeah, it's, it's critical. And, and it's not just that manager level, right? So day 2 of a grad joining, it's their responsibility to make sure that the next cohorts of grads that come in have a better experience.

So this is the good human part as well. Yeah, yeah. So where does the future you come in then?

Yeah, so future you came probably, what, 12, 18 months after younger you? And the concept of future you ties in really nicely with the EOT journey that we're on. But we sort of talk about the LHI as a vehicle to be able to get anyone to their future you. So we want to understand and really appreciate the journey that people want to go on. So for someone, it might be that they want to be a director in the business, or they want to open an office for us, or move abroad. But for other people, they might want to leave the business. So there's someone— I don't know why I always use this example, but there's someone that wants to move to Australia and run like a skateboard shop. And that's their future you, that's where they want to get to. And so we use LHI as a vehicle to be able to get them there. So can we give them the skills? Can we give them the support, the coaching? Can they build a bit of a financial nest egg that will allow them to go and chase their future you? So if you've got this world where we're obsessed about the young you and making sure everyone's journey is as solid and as positive as possible, we understand everyone's future you and where they want to get to. We've got a group of great humans and we've got an EOT that's sort of a carrot on the way as well. You just create this DNA and culture of real positive momentum, I think, and a sense of everyone's in it together.

And I think the other thing that you shared with me as well, which is a really important point, is I'm sure that this can still happen, right? But if you're, if this is like a principle and a philosophy in the business, it can also hopefully mean that you have less surprises in terms of like what people decide to do, right?

Succession planning 101. There's 4 or 5 people I already know now that in the next 12, 18 months, they're probably gonna be quite close to their future year. So I'm already thinking about, right, how do we get a number 2 or number 3 into the office? We're going to be a leader short in 12 months there. Who's up for that challenge? And then that goes back to us always promoting where possible internally. So I'm always talking to people 12 months ahead game, think like next 6 months, get yourself here in your job. It's going to open up A, B, C, D, and E door because we can then plot. We like don't attempt fate. We don't lose that many people to other recruitment companies. A lot of people will leave us to either leave industry or to go and chase futures. Yeah. So we should. Is a positive. Like, I, I— the days of people getting so angry when everyone let people leave or stuff like— it's frustrating when, you know, you get someone that leaves, you don't want to leave. But I think if you're having really mature dialogue and actually talking to people about what they want this year, next 6, 12 months, what they're doing it for, the real why, not just the 'I just want to earn money,' that's nice— it's not— it can't be just the why, surely. Then from that perspective, it just gives us— we're on the front foot. It's proactive and positive rather than reactive and negative. And that's very different to how to run them in business. And because people are really open about it, are so comfortable telling me and Ben, CEO's going, do you know what, I really want to open up a coffee shop in X. I want to run this as a bakery in here. And I'm like, awesome.

How not everyone wants to leave, by the way.

Yeah, that's how everyone's also going to be like me and be here for 18 years and be a life thing. Like, I can't be like coffee shop.

You shared this insight with people this year where I feel like The companies that I've met this year that outside looking in done a good job of attracting good recruiters, because that is hard. Yeah, it really is. Because a lot of people don't, aren't building this entry-level model and a lot of people are getting people from other recruitment businesses. And I think one of the fundamental things that these companies do is they've got, they've really thought about what their vision is, what people can be part of, where the business is going. And then most importantly, I can then sit down. In front of you and go, this is how you can achieve your goals within our vision. And if those individuals' goals and visions is bigger than where LHI is going, then of course you're going to have people go, well, this isn't really a vehicle that's helping me get to where I want to get to, right? So that, that's such a good insight. I think the other part then, just to round out this people part, Ben, I'll come to you on this because I think this is a good learning for people. I feel like part of this retention piece must be also being really intentional about the career pathways because you haven't got the— you've got a few different ones that I feel like that maybe I've seen other recruitment businesses, or at least you've got a number of different paths for people to grow into. And it isn't just build really well, you then manage a team, repeat, you become a— do you know what I mean? So from what I, from what I jotted down, obviously you've got individual contributors, right? So people that want to go on that, um, individual journey, yeah, be really high performing. You've obviously got that management leadership piece. Then there's a few other extra bits, so I'll let you talk about them because you had like, I think commercial, yeah, something like that. Yeah. So give us those career pathways, because I think that that's also in— I feel like part of this retention piece as well.

100%. I mean, the first thing that I'd say on this point is me and Botti always talk about this, is just the importance of playing to people's strengths. Yeah. So I think in recruitment there's this like— definitely, you know, back, back in the day when we first started, it was you're really, really good at sales, you move into leadership. It's quite one-dimensional. Um, if you weren't great at BD or you weren't great at delivery, you get pushed down one route or the other, and, and then you can— you get a bit of stigma around it. Whereas for us, we sort of leaned into the idea of playing to your strengths and doubling down on that. So we have your individual contributors, we have the management route, we have people that just play pure BD roles, we have people that play key account roles, we have some delivery people, and then we have, yeah, our commercial strategy. So it's client development and commercial strategy, which is basically all about some of our very best salespeople that are also incredible with the strategy, and they're looking at the markets that we're in, making sure that we've got the right people in the right seats. They're very, very client-focused, so they'll have a number on their head and they're typically quite aggressive numbers. They're responsible for feeding multiple people across the brand, supporting pitches, doubling up on pitches, cross-selling, making sure that the offices are talking to each other. So that was a new route that we started in '23. Yeah. '23, '24.

And they're genuine market experts. There's no point in me sitting here saying I know everything about renewables and pipematics. It's not possible. Whereas someone like Alex, who's been in it 10, 15 years, is an absolute market expert. If you talk about new markets, what we should be opening up, he's— that feeds back up to Ben and I going, guys, we've got to start looking at X or Y. This is the next boom because they're in it and they're speaking to experts day in, day out. We're just not doing that as CEOs. It's not possible, right? To do it over 4 markets. It's not— you can't do that.

You're not good at it either.

Yeah, I'm definitely not the expert at that.

And I feel like this is— I think we spoke about this when we prepped for this, but another insight I've definitely seen across companies that are on that scaling journey is, from what I understand from meeting these companies, is they've got less and less of that leadership team that are like non-billing or contributing to the, yeah, the revenue or cross-selling or the office. Obviously that's something that obviously you guys shared with me where I think I've wrote down what, circa 80% or something like that of your leadership team have a number, right? Probably more.

Yeah. 90+ percent, I think.

But that's something 12, 18 months ago you said maybe it was too much the other way.

Even going further back, everyone used to be in a race. It used to be like, when we're coming to like race to be hands-off, it's like, what does that actually mean? Whereas like, we believe, uh, the market has now become way more specialist in your space. So you need to be a market expert and a great recruiter to be at the very best, I think. And that's how we position ourselves as a, as a recruitment business. And so fundamentally, yeah, why would you put all that time and effort into being a market expert and then never use it again? I, I think that just, it just seems crazy. Um, not for everyone, but like that, that works for us. And we get people that are super passionate about that space. There are people like Alex, Del, Jas Harparasan that are like live and breathe it, like absolute as good as anyone I would think about talking about the market industry insight, like, and they work for us. That's brilliant. And they also happen to be exceptional recruiters.

Yeah, I think when you go back to that young philosophy as well, like if we are hiring graduates or people with less experience, and we're throwing them on the phone to customers, we're not setting them up for success. Whereas if, you know, a new senior consultant or a new consultant or even a C1 graduate joins us and they somehow manage to pull a big pitch, they're going to have the support and the backing of Adele or of Alex or of Mariano, for example, and they'll jump on the pitch calls with them and give them that support and give them the, maybe the help that they didn't have when they started. So, you know, that young you philosophy just shows up and over and over again.

Yeah, I feel like, I think I mentioned this to you guys, I just feel like even even now in the current landscape, that knowledge gap of like being in the market today, what it takes, how to succeed. There's for sure going to be principles that, you know, have been there for a long time. But I think that knowledge gap of like what it takes, what's required now versus 3 years ago, 4 years ago, that's just widening. And if you are someone that's just sitting there, isn't client-facing, isn't really understanding the market dynamics, the nuances, what's going on, and you're just simply looking at my team this week haven't done enough dial-outs, enough CVs out, you need to do more. I, I feel like that, yeah, that you can lose touch.

Yeah, you can just touch, point them in the right direction.

They want someone that's actually like, you know, do as I do, not as I say. Like, we use that all the time. Like, you can see that Alex is still running Piper Malik, you know, as, as that commercial lead, but fundamentally is still making 10, 15 pitches a week. People can listen, you know, listening in, or gets invited onto a call with like the guy who knows it inside out. That's going to make you like that consultant so much better than just someone say, just do it again. It's like, okay, I've had 10 pitches this week and won none. I mean, who wins from that? It's pointless, isn't it? It's like, why didn't you win? You need that expertise. And I think you've got to pass that down. And that's how you get the bottom layer learning faster. I think at the moment, we've probably got— we're in the markets at the moment that are evolving so quick as well. What I knew about when I set up, I didn't set it up without, I hired Alex in to do Piper Malik's in New York. What we did then compared to what we do now, million miles different. That's like 7 years ago. And it's like the market's changed. So how, what I know about renewables is probably still from about 2021. Do you know what I mean? It's not like, it's not now, it's not cutting edge this second. And it's like, obviously it gets pushed back to us, which is great, but you need experts. You really do need experts. That's the big thing that I've said to everyone I speak to at the moment is it's like, Having people that really know more than anyone else in that space, you've got to be invested 100% into those markets.

So Ben, let's talk about, we're talking about their markets, because I feel like this is absolutely crucial to where this business is today. I think again, one of the big insights that I've seen in successful companies over the last 12, 18 months is real intentional diversification and being willing to make those important decisions to go, you know what, we've always, we've always done this market, but from what we're seeing, the signals that we're seeing, we need to make this adjacent move or we need to point in this direction versus just hoping that things turn around. So obviously we've got a number of different brands here in this group. So I guess my first question is like, do we, do we think of the market first and then get the person or do we get the person and then, and then it's the market that they're doing? Like how, how intentional was the different markets from that original tech?

So I would say it's evolved over time. So I would say the birth of Piper Maddox, of Harper Harrison, of Sipro was based around a person and an opportunity and someone that knows the industry that we trust that can come in and build something. So I think as a starting point to get it off the ground, that was really, really important. But now I think it And now that we've got the majority of our leaders in place, I think it's all about them setting the strategy or us collectively setting the strategy, and then people fall into that strategy. So at the moment we're doing, we call them November sessions. We go around every office, every brand leader, every office leader presents their plan and their strategy for next year. And a lot of what they're talking about is the market opportunities, where they're going to see potential pivots, where they're going to put people. So we really try to, I don't think you can hire someone and change your strategy to fit that person into the business. I think you have to have the business and they fall in love with the strategy. At our size, definitely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, so yeah, okay. So a lot of these brands started by— we, we got someone, yeah, brilliant.

We knew we wanted to be in those markets, like, so you, like, like anything, like, you, I think, came probably more from Tom at the start in terms of he wanted to make sure that we weren't recession-proof. But obviously going through 20— uh, 2008, 2009, it was, it was pretty tight back in those days. And so then I think we just did tech then. And that was bloody tough, right? And then yet we heard, we heard that life sciences businesses in that time, like, oh, they were, they were pretty steady. We were like, what do you mean? Like, but obviously life cycles in life sciences is a lot longer, right? So I think Tom was really deliberate from bringing in contract and aggressively pushing that to then bringing in life sciences. He wanted to have non-competing brands that has paid off for us massively because like when one market dips, Obviously there's normally a spike in some, in one of the other four markets. And really, you talk about retention, and that's not related though, but if someone's struggling, still be a great recruiter. If your market's on its knees, and that does happen, but we can move them across, not just internally into their own brand, but we can move them into renewables or life sciences or wherever. We've kept a lot of people. You'll see on our tenure, a lot of people have worked one or two different, because We would sometimes have to super speed one if something really takes off and we're like, oh my goodness, we can't hire fast enough or get the right talent. But we've got 20 seniors that are like, my market is so slow and so hard. It's like, we've got an absolute rocket market here. Let's push you into there. Yeah. Good recruiters make it.

It's also a real thing, I think, in terms of, and I'm sure you've seen it in the business, where just actual individuals' personality types suit better different markets.

I think I'm a big believer in this. Yeah. I think some markets just lend itself to some certain people. Yeah. Yeah.

It is really important because You know, in single brand businesses, if that market, that brand, or that market focus doesn't work for the individual, they have to leave to change up their environment. Whereas, you know, Botti made a really good point. The amount of people that have moved brands and shift brands, huge. It's probably a good stat for us to get, but it's a constant thing. Like, can we pivot someone into a better seat, a better market? Maybe they might work with a leader a better way. Coming out of COVID the tech market got really, really, really tight. And so we saw a lot of people move from the, from our tech brand into our Piper Maddox brand. Um, and that is a real powerful, the old part.

Do you think that strategy still stands today where like if you earmarked a certain industry, you've earmarked that, and then you're going to go to market for the person? Like, would you, if you were to start another brand as part of LHR Group, would you still have that same approach today?

Oh, we've got the think tanks that we'll talk about where we get people internally to come up and pitch anything. They can pitch anything, new markets, new industries, new businesses, nothing's off the table. And so we get some really cool ideas. I'd love to, I'd always like it to be someone who's passionate about something that we already know, because obviously, you know, the entity, always nice. But yeah, let's just say we're gonna start a legal practice tomorrow. And we've got no one internally that wants to do it, or we think that's a great new market. We're not, by the way, it's not, not exclusive or anything. Then ultimately, from that perspective, then we probably would like, well, we don't know it, but we know it's a We've heard it's a good market, let's go and dig into it. We'll go and start interviewing people that are senior levels from that market.

We'd be very hesitant, I think, to start a new brand or a new office with a non-LHIR. 100%. Because to that DNA, to the LHIR DNA, to the younger you, to the future you philosophy, trusting that with someone who hasn't been part of the business and hasn't been part of the journey would be a challenge. Not impossible, but it would just be a challenge. So we typically want them to bleed into the culture, understand it, be with us for 12, 18 months, and then all the opportunities in the world.

And that's how you keep the consistency, the DNA, because the people that are starting offices have come from an office before. Yeah. So everyone, every office we've ever opened, there's already, they've come from an office already in the business. So they've seen it. And then you count in the longevity. I think I said to you the other day, Simon, there's 15 people next year to have a 10-year anniversary with us. Right. That's not including me, 18, Ben, so many others that are past that already. But that keeps it quite consistent too, around like the belief system, the younger you, the future you. So it all bleeds into every office. Everyone, I believe you can walk into any LHI office and you'll know you're in an LHI office. If it wasn't branded, you'd know it was ours 100%.

So you've got diversification in terms of the different brands, but then you've also got the different countries that you're doing business in. Yeah. Ben, what was the rough, I didn't write this down, what was like rough timeline, do you know, in terms of like rough timeline of like, mainly did our business in the UK for this period, then Europe, US, is that— I don't know, what's a rough timeline on that when you started to go into these different markets?

Our first international office was Munich, Germany, and that was 2013, 2014. Okay. And then New York was the next one, 2015. LA 2018. Okay. Austin 2019. Yep.

So do we think— I'll come to you on this, Ben— but do we think you would have got to the sort of profit numbers, revenue numbers, if you hadn't gone to the likes of the US? No, I don't think so.

I think diversifying the offering, being in the US, for example, the higher fees. We got in relatively early, so 2015. So we got in there before I think a lot of people came over.

Within 5 years of starting America, we were bigger than Europe. Yeah. Headcount. Really? From scratch. Which we'd been going, what, 15 years by that point in Europe. So you can supercharge it. You can supercharge it if you get it right.

Yeah. What's like rough percentage of like the revenue come from the UK now? Roughly?

I'd say it's probably 60-40 America. Okay. Yeah. Maybe even a little heavier. Maybe 70. Maybe, maybe small. I've got a big contract book in the UK, obviously.

But you're putting circa that 30-35% including Europe, including not just UK, but also like Germany and the bit of Europe. Yeah. Yeah. Europe and UK together. What, um, because I do think like when I speak to recruitment leaders right now where they're single brand UK market, it's defined, it's hard.

Like, yeah, I genuinely, hats off to you because that is a scary place.

It's not, it's not, yeah, like there's a lot of factors, right? But I do think that the economics of it has just got harder, like in terms of doing the UK tech market, UK salaries, UK office, like that, that's again been a standout thing over the last 12-18 months, just the sheer amount UK companies where their revenue is 90, 95% US. Yeah. I guess, Bhatti, you did this journey. This is something I'm speaking to a lot of people around. You incubated the US from the UK. Yeah. Which in essence means you're working the US market from the UK until you get it to a point where you're happy to then get boots on the ground. Yeah. Does that strategy still play today? Like, because I speak to a lot of people and they're unsure. Should we be incubating from the UK and then building traction? Should we just get, you know, boots on the ground? How do you feel about that strategy today?

I can only do it from the experience of what we did. The reason we did that is because we didn't have, back then, there was no one we could call and go, what's your philosophy in the US? Because there's like, that was a few companies there, but not that many. And our network was quite limited at that time. We were still a 150-person, 200-person business. We wanted to make sure, one, the market was there. Two, we knew how we could actually make some money in it. Um, and then I think from that perspective, the incubation from the UK was the right thing. I think, uh, it's all about the team. For me, it's like, work. I obviously headed the team with Mike, who's now CSO, obviously with Ben and one other. Like, we all wanted to be in America. We all wanted that next challenge of putting our name on something to build it. Um, and then we we properly worked American Hours. Like, we started it— well, we ended up starting at 9 and finishing at 11 every single day for 9 months. Like, we put it in big time, but it worked. Like, we had a— we had a— by the time we hit the ground, we were consistently billing month in, month out, had some great accounts. We were already— so as soon as I hit the ground, I'd hired 2 people before we'd even landed. Well, effectively, Mariano on day 1, who's now still with us as a grad, and I hired someone else, senior, who had already closed before I got on the ground. And so we'd always, we hit and then we hired two Americans very deliberately straight in. Um, cause we were already, already rocking and rolling. Yeah.

Um, I think if I was starting from scratch, which I'm not doing, but if I was starting from scratch, I would definitely test run it from the UK to start with because the things you don't think about are all of the logistical pieces. So the cost of opening an office, running payroll in the States, depending on what state you're in. The tax that you pay, the employer legislations that you have to abide by state to state, it can be a bit of a minefield. And so I would always recommend getting to critical mass, getting some revenue on the board, getting some consistency, get a customer base. Yeah. So that when you get there, you know that you've got your customer base looked after. Because without that, like, you know, if we landed in New York in the January of 2015 when we started, that Q1 would have been awful. Yeah, the first month would have been the most difficult.

What percentage of your, maybe not many, I don't know, but what percentage of your people today are based in the UK? Okay, but what US hours? What US? Okay, yeah, fair. So like everyone's got, yeah, fair.

And yeah. Yeah, that's what I always say to people.

Like if you want to go down that route, the trade-off is like you were saying, like your personal life.

If you do it properly, it depends on, everyone's different. I hear people doing day 10 to 8, Monday to Thursday, whatever, whatever works. If you can find the money in that time, it's great. But for us, we wanted to be on the ground. We wanted to build an American business. We're pretty being quite deliberate and wanting an American business, not just a load of UK guys going out there to build a business like that. And I think that worked for us quite well, or very well, in terms of getting that right balance. But be on the ground, seeing clients face to face, you know, that's how one of our biggest MOs is ultimately face-to-face work. So yeah, that for us just means we have to be on the ground and we're there a lot.

So, and then just final piece on, on this, obviously it all stems from having non-competing brands. Yeah, that helps. But I'm sure this is something that you look at, Ben. How have we got good and better at cross-selling? Because it sounds easy to be like, yeah, I've got these different brands, like, yeah, obviously, yeah, Piper Maddox client, yeah, we can get them over to this. But I know it is harder than that. It is. So how do we, how have we got better at the cross-selling piece? I guess part of it would be the, some of the people in those positions that you're talking about. So they're commercially savvy, so they can see those opportunities to go, hang on a minute. This isn't just a Cypro client, these are the reasons, these are the other opportunities. Yeah. But what, what some of the philosophies around cross-selling, uh, that you can maybe share with us? Because I know there'll be other recruitment leaders that do have different brands, but that's something that's really quite hard to get going.

Yeah, yeah, we definitely haven't mastered it yet. I think it's an ongoing, uh, it's an ongoing battle to try and get right. We spoke about it a lot, and probably we were more deliberate over the last probably 2 or 3 years I think the commercial strategy team play a huge role in it because they have a bird's eye view typically of the whole brand in the region. And so they can see if an opportunity with a customer is a cross-selling opportunity, whether it's multi-office or multi-brand. And we're basically trying to finesse it every year. So we've got some key metrics that we look at. This year, the November sessions I've spoken about already, one of the pieces of information that we gave all of our office and brand leaders were how many other offices, their office were interacting with and doing deals with, and how many other brands each brand were interacting with and doing deals with as well. So I think just by putting it in front of leaders, they're already encouraged to look at the data, dig into it. In the US in particular, I think they're probably a bit further ahead than the European side of the business in terms of collaboration. So we have things, we call them goose reports. I think Jack might have mentioned them on your podcast before. Basically, when a new role comes on, Typically the role will get shared with the whole brand across the whole of the US after 2 or 3 days. I think it's 48 hours. Yeah. And so that gives the whole brand an opportunity. 48 hours after a job has been registered, we tap into the whole brand. The whole brand has an opportunity to send any candidates they might have. So straight away you get, you know, I think Austin, 25-30% of their revenue this year has come from LA customers because LA have sent out a job pack and Austin have jumped on it and been able to service it.

John's really easy, interesting on that as well. He's like, I know it sounds really stupid and basic, but we measure it. I've talked to so many people like, oh, how's your cat? How are you measuring it? Like, why aren't you measuring it? You run a business, you don't even— you want, you want something, but you're not actually finding the numbers out. What is it at the moment? Is it 1%? 5%? 0%? And so therefore, you can't change it without knowing where your starting point is. Some brands, it happens more than others. Obviously, LH is a tech brand, can go into a lot of renewables and go into a lot of life sciences. So there's probably gonna be more collaboration from an agency perspective than PM and life sciences are probably quite different, right? So you've gotta be quite deliberate in where you're trying to push that to happen. But the fundamental one was having the commercial expert over the top to try and tie everything together.

And then something that, 'cause when I sat down with Ollie, obviously Faden have different brands, there's something that you shared that you found really impactful. I don't know if you do this, but when any of the brands sign terms, they signed Faden terms. Same with us. Yeah.

So that's a smart thing to do, isn't it?

Yeah. But it's just a very small particular thing, but you may not be doing that, because then it's like we already have like the different brands can go to, we've already got terms on. You haven't got that, Barrett, it's already been, been done. Yeah, 100%.

And we're looking at little things now. I've, I've got a role in mind that we're, um, in the process of announcing for next year that almost like sits behind, behind the scenes, operates under LHI, but can help pick up opportunities, maybe spot where we've signed contract and perm terms but we're only doing perm revenue. So they'll, that'll get flagged and passed to the contract squad. So we're looking at different ways that we can sort of um, pick up that, those internal collaborations.

Yeah, because actually, that's, again, I'm sure if you increase that number of like average spend with one brand, like that, that's obviously the big benefit you could get from the different brands. We're talking about here, Ben, I'll come to you. I'm always interested to hear this, particularly with the size of your business. What does, in my very, in my very per office, I don't know, but like if I was to say to you, right Ben, what does the performance of the Miami office look like? What's on your dashboard? Like what, what, like what is your performance dashboard look at? Like, what is it that— what are your north star metrics that you look at and go, right, Miami's in a good spot, Austin I'm not sure of at the moment? Like, what's on your dashboard numbers? Let's talk about that.

Interesting. So ours will be probably quite different. Okay. And actually Botti's is probably more relevant in terms of like the day-to-day performance of the business. For me, I definitely look at PPH. So PPH is a metric that we measure, profitability per head. And for me, that's a really, really nice way of looking at how healthy a business unit is. So in the US, we look at being over $20K per head per month as a healthy line in the sand. Over here in Europe, we look at more £12 to £13. £12 is official. I like £13 personally. So that's a key metric that I'd look at. Contribution is a big one. And I don't mean contribution in terms of profitability. I mean contribution in terms of the amount of people in the team doing a deal. Deal. So I think the worst seat in recruitment is if you're sitting there and you're a consultant, a senior consultant, and you haven't done a deal for 2 or 3 months. That's the worst seat in recruitment. And so we want to put the pressure on our brand leaders and our leaders to make sure that everyone's being fed and is being supported. So how many people are doing a deal per month is a really important metric that I look at as well.

Yeah, always whenever I sit down with— it's always productivity, but it is typically that is a big— is the main one. Yeah. Boy, what are you looking at then? What's on your dashboard then from about 15?

Yeah, a few more. Um, if I'm going to be honest, like over time we've worked out basically the ratios from job added, CV sent, CV to second, second to final.

Give us those then. Give us the, the science.

Honestly, I couldn't because it's every brand. Okay. So like within solar, X amount of jobs on, if it, you know, what's the sweet spot? So I'm literally looking at day to day, team to team. How many jobs have gone? Because it always starts with a job. Yeah. And then we then categorize the jobs between A, B, and C, or A+, A-, B+. So it can be A+ would be exclusive retained with a client we've done multiple, multiple deals with. So we know the process inside out. We're a great— they're a great client of ours. I expect that to flow through on a certain ratio. And I'm just always basically looking at those ratios per per business, per brand, and feeding that back into the leaders to make sure they're on it. I start— I think job flow is everything. I'm just that old. I'm old school. I can pretty much tell you the GP of the business based on what jobs are pulling a week. I can tell that Ben or Ed says, 'But give me a forecast.' I'm like, 'We're probably only about 4 mil this month.' And like, 'Sorry.' And I'm normally—

that's a disaster.

It happens. Uh, I'm normally not far off 100 grand up, 100 grand down, because our job flow ratios are so so on point.

I think if you were to see Botti's office at home, I don't know exactly what's on the whiteboards, but I know he's got a lot of whiteboards sprinkled around. So I imagine he's probably got ratios.

It's like Rain Man. My wife keeps calling him. I just like the idea. I believe there is a systematic way of working. I know that if we get 4 first CVs on a job in Piper Maddox in America, we have a 58%— we're going to place that job. Yeah. So I'm like, guys, you you work the commitment, and I know you keep doing it, and therefore it's 2 in 1 jobs. You put 5 jobs on a month and you get 4 firsts on 3 of them. I'm like, you're definitely doing a deal minimum, more likely go past 2 or 3. And that just means you can start telling consultants. It's not about a KPI. I can't stand KPIs for KPI's sake. It's just absolutely pointless. Once you understand your patterns, then you can understand what you're trying to influence along the pattern. That could be a closing problem, might not be an effort problem at all. read it in LA of— we were talking about, oh, needs to do more, needs to do more. I was like, guys, you don't need to do any more. You're not getting paid enough on what you're doing and your ratios. And it actually worked out. Their closing ratio was at like 60-something percent. I was like, guys, let's work on pre-final. Yeah, let's work on post-final. Let's work on pre-close, post-close. And then all of a sudden they started doing that for a couple of months. Shock horror, they got up to like 90% close rate. That's just like knowing those patterns and when to push, because every office is different. Every market is different, but I do think you've got to have a real— someone in your business should have a real clear understanding of the metrics. I think that's super important and it needs to have zero ambiguity.

Yeah, I think to go back to the point right at the start of the conversation around co-CEOs, having someone that knows the rhythms, the ratios, is so powerful because typically we can catch things, or Botti will catch things before the office leader or the brand leaders have even recognized it, and he can give that information, pass that information down, which enables us to then try and fix things before it becomes a massive issue. So it's quite rare that we'll see an office or a brand go through 2 or 3 months of back-to-back bloopers because Botti probably would have caught it before the first one and then we can impact it. If you only had one CEO, it's impossible to do the CEO job. Oh yeah. And with all of the variables and do that side of it, it would be so much to juggle. So, you know, that's why if we're able to split the responsibilities, We're setting up our younger users, the office leaders and brand leaders, really nicely.

And then correct me if I'm wrong, Botti, but like it might really fluctuate, but in terms of how the different brands are working with their end customers, a lot of the time it's on a success basis, on a contingent basis.

Oh, now we obviously offer multiple different ways of working with a client, from embedded solutions, from XPS, actual consultancy. We do a lot of retained, uh, exclusive work with our clients. That's what we're always trying to push. We want a real— it's a classic, isn't it? We want a real true partnership, but the true partnership comes from face to face. Like, we— it starts, it starts there. We want our client base to know who we are, have met us multiple times. We're not just there when it's red hot. We're also going to meet them in the interims as well. Um, we— yeah, poor Ed, the CFO, looks at the spend on flights and face-to-face meetings, but we said it's a non-negotiable for LHI that if you work for us, you've got to be in front of your client base.

Yeah, you said that was one of your biggest outlays this year.

Yeah, I said it is. This year has been more than ever before. Yeah. Which where I was speaking to recruiters who said they had to pay for their own travel and coffees to go and see their clients. Yeah. I was like, oh, what are we doing? Like we're in a face-to-face, we're in a world where face-to-face is still, I still think, maybe I'm a dinosaur, still think it's as prevalent as ever.

No, I think we did like a bit of an end-of-year report. I think with AI and tech, one of the things that it will be eroding massively is trust. Yeah, so I do think trust is gonna be— it's always been an important currency in recruitment, but I think it will just become more and more important. And one of the ways that you can absolutely, uh, grow that is what we're doing now, right? It's face-to-face. It is, it's just different.

So it's just the extra, it's just the extra effort. It goes— I know it sounds a bit old school, but like, it's like sending someone a handwritten note. Like, it's just, you receive it and most people would say, like, do you know what, fair play, someone's bothered to write. Sit there and read an email. You can write an email or a text. A handwritten note saying, really appreciate that last close, whatever. It's just so much more personal. And that's, that's, I still think recruitment has that place. There's a place where AI, 1,000%, but I still think what's going to differentiate you is industry knowledge and how, and do you trust me? Have you looked in my eyes and do you believe what I say? And I think that's still a really important aspect of what we do.

And then Ben, to sort of round us out here then, like the things that I think whenever I sort of try and understand this from people in the position you're in, it's never huge massive changes, is it, with where it's always normally like small percentages, maybe minor tweaks, but probably just more and better of what we're already doing to what we've got here. But when I said to you guys, right, what are we really doubling down on, um, going into next year, which we feel like is gonna convert to, um, a growth year You put LHI customers and clients are really being all over that. Again, some of the things that we're talking about, how can we work with our customers in different ways, like the embedded solutions and these type of things, we're going to get closer to them. Continue building your brand from an LHI perspective. I think one of the guys that you guys were honest with me was you guys have really just stayed in your lane, LHI journey versus maybe getting caught in like comparison where everyone else is at. That. But that maybe has also meant that haven't done the best job of, uh, always, uh, advocating outwardly of like what LHI is all about, even though you've got so many great internal success stories. So trying to put some effort into that, which makes sense. Yeah. And then people leadership development, which, which, which is going to be key, isn't it? I don't know what, what do you want to add to that? But that— there's some of the, the key pillars really that you shared with me, wasn't it, in terms of what we're doubling down on future-wise?

Exactly. Yeah. So, so we're doing our town halls. This will be a spoiler to the London and Bristol crew because they haven't seen it yet, but In our town hall, part of the presentation, me and Botti both feel it's really, really important that everyone in the business has like clarity and an understanding of like what our strategy moving into next year is. Sounds really, really basic, but you've sort of hit on 3 core pillars there. So LHI customers. So how can we take our customers off the market? How can we build relationships beyond just a transactional job? Super, super important. Um, yeah, building our brand. So there's two parts of building our brand. It's building LHI as a place to work and getting our voice out there, which is super important to both of us. There's also building people's brand in their specific niches. So people hosting industry-related podcasts, roundtables, um, that is really, really important to us as well. So not just why you should work at LHI, but why our customers and client base should engage with us falls within the building the brand. And then, yeah, people and leadership development, which which again sounds really basic, but we want that to be a core strategic pillar. We want people to know that that's what we're invested in and we're doubling down in so that we can keep scaling. And those 3 pillars sit on top of our journey to talent solutions. So Botti touched on it, we're looking to be able to talk to our customers in as many ways as possible so we can solve their talent journey. Not just can we fill a job for you, but if you're hiring in bulk, can we offer our embedded solutions? If you've got a transformation project, maybe you can work with our XPS business and they do an end-to-end project for you. If you need some exec hires, you can use our exec search offering. If you're doing typical contingent, that's our day, like, everyday contract. So all of a sudden, we're not just pitching for one or two jobs. We've got multi-brand, we've got multi-purpose, we can touch them in every different way. Even down to leadership training, leadership development, leadership training, we're offering under our XPS advisory banner as well. So yeah, that, that Talent Solutions journey with the 3 pillars, with the DNA that we've spoken about, um, we feel moving into next year we're probably in the best possible spot.

Love it. Well, look, there's so much we can talk about, but I feel like the things that we did cover, I think some really good education for anyone out there that's thinking about, I built a great business, what is my future like, how do I get to a point where we get to some sort of events, or some really cool education there. We learned about co-CEOs, what that looks like. But then really love talking about just— it's really obvious, isn't it? But it's, it's why our industry is always going to be massive, is like the people part is hard. It's just, it's just, it like, it's such an obvious cliché thing to say, but it's all about your people, right? So some really good things there on what you guys have done well to, you know, continue to bring in, uh, talent into our industry. Um, what you're doing to make sure that, you know, have really the stats in their favour to succeed in your environment, how you're keeping people. Um, then yeah, market strategy, which again, I'm really glad we've spoken about that because I think that is a big lesson for a lot of people, like that intentional diversification. But you're just talking about there, it doesn't just have to be market, but how you're working with your companies, right? It's not just permanent contracts, it's all those other things that you said. So we can future-proof our business and hopefully just have more ways to weather challenging periods. And then data and everything, what that looks like. So really enjoyed that. And thank you so much for joining me, guys.

Thank you for having us.