£650K Revenue Couldn't Save Her Recruitment Business | Here's Why with Brooke Cooper

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Thank you for having me.

We've known each other for a good amount of time. It was one of our very early customers on our training platform. Yeah, we spent quite a lot of time with each other, to be fair, around trying my recruitment I've met a bunch of the previous team at 27 Talent, and we spoke about your plans of going to America. Like, we spend a lot of time with each other. So when I saw that you was closing down 27 Talent, I text you right away saying like, anything that I can help with, let me know. And we ended up having really honest chat, which I feel like that's probably what we tend— we've done in the past, really, just have a bit of an honest chat with each other. And we spoke about having an honest conversation here, yeah, around something that a lot of people who have a recruitment business may be fearful that it may happen to them one day, or might be going through it right now, and maybe have actually gone through it. So our goal here really is to try and give people a bit of education on what happens when your recruitment business fails, essentially. And for you, you went through voluntary liquidation. We're going to talk about what does that mean, what's the knock-on impact for you personally so far, because I know we're still very much getting closer to the very, like, other side of this. Yeah, but go through with the time that you have had to reflect what have been the things that you had to learn the hard way, as in the business then no longer existing. And all throughout this as well, you started your mom chapter and started family. So have a 6-month-old. We've got Dad looking after the little one today, of course, right here in the studio. So our goal here really is to have an honest chat about these types of things for people listening, and we both agreed One of the conversations I had a year or so ago with, uh, John Gorham from Finney James, who I know he reached out to you, didn't he?

Yeah, he did.

People really appreciate transparency, and this is something that there isn't enough education on, content on, and I know you sort of also felt that going through this. So that's our goal here. Yep, really. So appreciate having the courage to talk about it because I know this is still very much like very raw. Yeah, very, very raw. So we We've got a bit of a plan that we want to go through, and we wanted to start with just getting a bit of an understanding of why we even started this business, where it sort of came from. So you started your recruitment career in Rec2Rec.

Yep.

And then went into a business called Add and Lane. That wasn't Rec2Rec, was it?

No, that's finance recruitment.

So why don't we just talk a bit about like where we was at life-wise, what we wanted to like first set out to achieve when you launch your own business, 27 Talent, because I've got here saved up around £50K, you had no clients, no desk, because you were going back into rec to rec after not being into it.

Yeah.

And what was the goal at that point? Like, when we started 27 Talent, if me and you sort of met up at that early period and said, Brooke, congrats on launching the business, what's the plan? What are we doing? Like, what would have said around that period?

Yeah, I think a bit of background and context would probably help from my time at Rawl and Allen Lane. Um, but I've been in recruitment for 10 years now, it's a decade this summer, which is just crazy to think about. Um, and I was definitely one of those people that fell into recruitment as well. I remember when me and my best friend were moving down from Leeds at uni to London, she was like, have you heard about recruitment? Apparently you just earn loads of money and go for lunch all the time. I thought, that sounds like a bit of me, I'm going to look into that, and then ended up going through Rule as a rec-to-rec to get a job in London, and came down to London, started the interview process, and then they invited me in to come and see them. And it was the complete opposite of what I thought I wanted. I thought I wanted some like big buzzy sales floor, huge company, and I was the fourth person into business. It was a startup, they were just outside of London in Wimbledon, and it was a husband and wife-run firm. But it was the opportunity to kind of sit next to a director and be in a startup, and I just loved it. I was there for just shy of 3 years, like that business really went on a journey. When I was there, we had such good culture, and I really loved direct-to-rec. I loved how creative it was. I was doing a lot of like grad recruitment then, but it was so about like the person, the personality, and just like really matching that with these up-and-coming businesses. And I just love the market, but I just found myself wanting a bit more. And I think when you're in rec-to-rec, you're really lucky because you're window shopping all the time. You're kind of seeing what's, what's going on in the market. And Allen Lane were a really, really good business, and you know, they just had this platform to like really learn from people that were so experienced. Um, there were like 30 people when I joined that business, but over half of them had been there for more than 10 years. Um, like the top biller was doing like £4 million, and a few million-pound billers. The perm team that I sat in were all doing like £400 to kind of £600K. Um, and you know, I just kind of saw a bit of a gap, I guess. Um, I mean When I knew I was going to leave Roel, I did think at the time, should I just do it now? Should I just start up? But I didn't have even 3 years recruiting experience. I thought, let me go and learn from a different business. And just kind of fast-forwarding some time at Allen Lane, I was there for a year and the pandemic hit, and I wasn't furloughed. I was still working throughout that time. And I think—

what market did you do then?

So I was placing finance recruiters into the public sector, and mostly the NHS was the desk. I'd say like 95% of what Probably like finance professionals into NHS.

Yeah, you said finance recruiters, that's just you, you're a red to red.

No, finance professional. Yeah, yeah, into the NHS. And, um, you know, the way that we worked there as well, it was all, um, kind of like multi-campaigns, exclusive retained work. So my market was still going, like pretty much everyone else was furloughed, but I had campaigns I was working on. And I think a huge thing that kind of stopped me from starting up sooner was that doubt that was like, am I only good because I'm around a team, I'm around people, there's that knowledge sharing? But when you're sat at home doing it on your own anyway and doing it for someone else, um, the seed just started to get planted basically that maybe I'm ready to do this a bit sooner.

I think a lot of people had that, particularly in that period where, like you said, we were so used to going into the office, team, but then all of a sudden was on our own smashing it out, hold ourself accountable, It's like, hang on a minute, yeah, why can't I do this for myself?

Exactly. And I think like my last quarter there, like, um, was, was a good quarter. I'd done like £90K in that quarter, um, and I knew I'd banked up some, some good commission there if they were still willing to pay it to me when I left. And I'd bought my first property, I had about £20K savings, so there was a lot that I kind of sorted out that felt that now was a good time to start. And I guess when, when I was first starting 27 Talent, to be honest, like, there wasn't like this huge plan of what I wanted it to look like, but I definitely took a lot of inspiration from both businesses I'd worked in before, naturally. Um, but yeah, I just knew I had kind of a year to make it work, basically. I'd had enough savings to get it off the ground and see what I could do with it.

Yeah, that's fair. I speak to so many people where it is just taking that first step, and then they sort of figure things out as they go in terms of what they really wanted and these things. And that brings me to the first point, because this is something that I hear a lot, where you had a moment, I think around June in this first year, where you did your like biggest fee in terms of 27 Talent-wise. Yeah, it might have been in your recruitment career, I don't know, by that point. And you have no one to celebrate it with. I think you said you had your dog at this time, and that's who the only person you could celebrate like having this big milestone.

I mean, I was quite happy, to be honest, the first 6 months just working from the kitchen table, zoning in, and you know, just focusing what was in front of me. I just, I love that focus and just building something and getting it done. But that did feel That was kind of like the start of the turning point for me because, yeah, I'd had this really good month. I'd done a couple of grad placements and then an experience placement, which was an £18k fee. And I remember literally just jumping up and down in my kitchen like, this is so good, and with my dog jumping up and down thinking like, what are we so excited about? But, you know, I didn't have anyone to really celebrate it with apart from like obviously really good friends like a Shedneys, but they're not in recruitment, like they don't get it and what that means. So, that was just a bit of a turning point for me to think, you know, Well, first of all, like, could I achieve more if I was around people who were also in the market with me and we were collaborating and sharing knowledge? Um, but also, you know, like, I think that's one of the best things about having a team in recruitment. You go through these highs together and you're there for each other through the lows as well.

And then also as well, I can imagine, like you said, you had a really great time at RAL, right? So I'm sure he's also thinking, actually, if I could have some really great people on the journey, that would probably make this job even more fun.

Yeah, I was so lucky in both companies that I work with, you know, the teams were so strong, like everyone really supported each other, um, everyone had each other's backs, like everyone was genuinely like friends in the teams that worked in. So, um, yeah, I just started having these thoughts like it would be really fun to be able to build that myself and You know, there were so many things that both companies did well, but I just felt like the way that Adam Lane did business, if I could kind of almost mirror that but in the rec-to-rec world— I mean, like, I'm just gonna put out there, like, a lot of people don't think that highly of rec-to-rec, so I just thought, you know, there is a bit of a gap in the market to be a really good rec-to-rec, to be a really, really good, um, firm that's not overly kind of like salesy or chasing like the short-term wins. But, you know, Adam Lane was so big on like long-term thinking, long-term relationships, um, you know, like giving a really, really good honest service. And I just felt that it was a really good gap in the market for that.

So in that, in that first year did around £200K?

Yeah.

Overheads weren't massive at all. That was a good, good first year taking the, the lead, making that happen. And then we started to— then I guess the next stage was, as you said, that experience with your dog celebrating, maybe planted a bit of a seed. You'd had this experience with the different organizations. Could I actually create something fairly unique in this rec2rec space where we're doing the right thing, it's high performance, it's, you know, a combination of all the things that a lot of people— I feel like when they go on their recruitment entrepreneurial journey, they try and take the best bits from the environments they've been in. So was very much then going on, on this stage of like, right, what, what could I build? And this is then where your first hire came in, Callum, who I know as well. Which you've known Callum for a long time and he was your first hire, right? So this is in the second year, and then this when was then really the first step of like, right, actually let's take steps towards building. Yeah, can we build this sort of hybrid, as you said, with 27 Talent? And talk to us about that, this then. So when we brought Callum in, his first hire, always a big moment. I always remember that for me. Yeah, my first hire didn't actually work out. I learned from that one. Um, Like, again, if we were to meet up around then, was it now then, right, a bit more of a clearer ambition, we want to grow something?

Yeah.

Was that the sort of intention then when we brought Callum on the journey?

Yeah, it was a really considered decision from both of us. I mean, we crossed over at Rule, but only for about a 6-month period. Um, he joined after me, and so we kind of like knew each other through friends and had always stayed in touch. And then one of our really good friends did like a charity boxing match, basically, and we're a few drinks down and just talk about recruitment, as you do. Um, and And I honestly can't remember the extent of exactly what I said to him, but I got a message a few days later saying, really thinking about what you were saying the other night, and I think we should have a chat. And I was like, oh God, what was— what exactly was I saying the other night? Um, but anyway, we met up quite a few times over about a 6-month period between the September and the March of him, him starting, because we really wanted to make sure it was right and we were aligned, and if we were both going to go all in on this journey, that, you know, we had a really clear, I guess, like, vision of, of what we wanted it to be. And And I mean, if you want to know, I guess, like, what that looked like, and I guess what we were planning for, like, the bread and butter of the business was the graduate and trainee side of things. But we saw, I guess, like, a lot of rec-to-recs in the market at the time did one thing really well. So there were, like, rec-to-recs that did just grads and trainees, or just experienced hires, or just international, but there wasn't almost like a one-stop shop for everything. And so we just saw an opportunity to maybe get to, like, a 40 maybe max 50-person large agency with like these different specialist teams that cover different things. But, you know, we'd have like a shared sense of clients but all have our specific kind of candidate verticals and niches within that. Um, and when he joined, that's what we started working towards straight away.

So we had ambition, first hire is like, right, let's, let's make this happen, right? So then over the next couple of years, why don't you just, I guess, paint a bit of a picture then? So, because this is where then over the next couple of years I got to know more about your business, right? Because I think One thing that was really evident to me getting to know you guys was, and you shared this with me, was throughout this stage of growing, because we ended up getting to what, circle 8, 10 people, it sort of fluctuated between that, didn't it? Um, you really wanted to have everything like scalable from day one. I've got written down here.

Yeah.

And you want to do things properly.

Yeah.

Just tell me about that mindset, because I think this also fit was into us getting to know your mindset and perspective as a business owner, right? Because I think again, when we get to the point of then what ended up happening, some of these decisions factor into this— wanting to make things scalable, give everyone exactly what everything they need, all the bells and whistles from the start.

Yeah.

So talk to us a bit about why that was like your mindset, or like what that looks like in practice. Because you had an ops person in the business. Some people might go, how can you have an ops person? You're a small, like, flat structure team. Just give us a bit of a, a picture there in this, in this journey where, you know, by the time we'll get into last year and the particulars, but basically going into last year there was what, like 6 to 8 of you? Yeah, Billows ops person.

Yeah, marketing.

Yeah, marketing. So let's just talk a bit about that. Had the ambition but wanted to really make everything scalable from day one.

Yeah, I mean, again, I think it was such a considered decision to decide to go all in and try and scale the business. And it was bootstrapped, like, yeah, everything I did to scale it was just reinvesting the profits and, you know, money I had to put into it. So it was a big decision, and hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I guess at the time, if you were asking me, I just wanted to do it properly. And that meant, you know, like CRM, good tech stack, like the equipment people had, everything. I mean, I, I, it's hard, right? Because I do think that maybe, did I set the wrong tone quite early by just giving so much so soon to people? And I think, you know, the time when I was at Raw, for example, it was quite scrappy, but I think that made me quite good at the job because we weren't necessarily like given things on the plate. I mean, like, we didn't have a CRM. Like, you literally, um, at the time anyway, like If you'd spoke to a candidate, you just email everyone saying spoken to, and that was your candidate, and that was it. And, you know, even just like the phone systems, it was like the old like wire cord phones. Like, we were literally like chained to our desks on the phones all day. Like, I wanted to get like the Jabras and the laptops and people to be able to work. I just wanted to— like, everything we had from like the tech stack to the equipment, and also investing in an office in central London really quite early in our journey. I just wanted the foundations to be right because I truly believe that that would set the right tone of the sorts of people we wanted in the business and just, just doing things properly, like not cutting corners. Um, but I think if you ask me what I think of that now, I, I think if I could rewind time and do that part differently, we just shouldn't have been doing that so early in our journey. Like, we probably should have just been a bit like scrappier and, you know, just like generating some really good revenue first so that when we were growing, like people were on that kind of journey with us of being able to have more invested in them rather than just kind of give it to them up front.

Think about it, think about it. Like, I speak to a lot of solo founders, founders of small businesses, and they spend a lot of time demoing products. Like, think about all of the different, like, tools and products now that you could consider. Yeah, to give everyone everything they need, let alone, you know, 2020 2 period. Like, it's come a long way, do you know what I mean? So I think it is important to just really factor that in, in terms of like, actually, okay, we'd love to be able to have all these tools or have all of this in place, but what actually right now are the non-negotiable things that we have, and then we can build to that. Yeah, that's fair.

I mean, my first year when I was on my own doing it, I had— I barely spent my money on anything. I didn't even spend money on advertising. I, I literally just used my network and referrals. I just used my personal mobile phone. I didn't have like a fancy voice system or like wasn't using any AI at the time or anything like that. So yeah, we're like, I, I felt like we had a really good offering for the tech stack that we were giving our recruiters, um, but you know, all that stuff eats into the deals, eats into profitability.

What about, talk me through, because to give everyone a bit of an idea here, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but so we had Uh, 2022, full year calendar from like around March period, we did nearly like 400K revenue that, that year. Yeah, there, thereabouts. Um, at the end of that year then also then launched the Experience Hard Division, as we said, like had the goal of like trying to have like a one-stop shop for what we were talking about. Um, and then 2023, obviously remember as well, we had that real boom period, right, where a lot of recruitment companies were making making like a good amount of money. They were hiring. You would have really been at the front of that, cold face of that. But 2023 started with 4 of you, ended the year with around 8 of you. Tell me about the— what was the thought process around like the ops person? Because I remember when we spoke, you're like, they've been absolutely brilliant.

Yeah.

So what was the thoughts there again? Was it like, let's get things properly, I'm spending too much time over here, they can help? What was the idea of getting the ops person in versus just keeping it all sales heads?

Yeah, I mean, you know, it was anything that was taking me away from revenue-generating activity. I found quite frustrating at times, to be honest. Um, and I, again, I just thought getting an ops person would really be able to support with that. But again, I just— when we were having like weekly one-to-ones, like I wanted somebody to be able to go and like pull the data and the information, just like really helped, um, um, I guess like develop people. Like she was so brilliant at doing that and getting the stats and everything. And just when it comes to like invoicing, chasing, and even like terms negotiations, she was really helpful with. Like, you know, clients always push back when you go with your terms, but I would always kind of, um, work with her to say like, can you go back, say this, etc. But she was always the one that would like go and do the work behind the scenes. So, um, it just felt like it made sense to get her on board so that like myself and also the salespeople could focus on the things we should be doing to generate revenue, and she could support everyone from kind of like back office perspective.

Okay, and then I think the other thing probably to know before we go into like basically like where we was at the beginning of last year was the way that you set things up. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you and Callum really leverage your own relationships from a BD standpoint because I think that's the thing whenever I speak to reps, when I got to know your business Like, one of the things that we were trying to help the guys with was like the, the new business piece, right? Because oftentimes you'll hear people say getting clients from Redtrek is easy, like they're always going to be open to seeing good recruiters and all that. So a lot of the time it's on the headhunting piece, on the, the candidate side. So a lot of the, the biz development, the client side, for the most part— correct me if I'm wrong here— for whatever time period was also driven by Callum and yourself?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in all honesty, there wasn't really an expectation for the team to go and do the business development. I think, you know, one really great thing about working rec-to-rec is that when you win a client, you can continuously deliver to that account if you know the business really well, because you can be really creative in rec-to-rec. You know, you're essentially placing people that are generating revenue, so you can work with your clients to create roles around, around the right sorts of people. So there was never like massively that expectation, but I think you know, we recruit for recruitment firms, so we see all these different commission structures. There's not another firm out of the nearly 200 that we had on that didn't take a split for the BD. So that was just part of the structure we had where, like, Calum and myself, like, didn't expect any deal splits for the BD. So we'd do all the BD, all the client work, um, and the guys were that more kind of like 270 in terms of they'd do some account management, but it was, it was candidate delivery. But when they would make a placement, they would get 100% of the fee.

Next to their name.

Next to their name.

Because I think that that's probably part of this rest— part of this journey as well, like how that was structured.

Yeah.

Okay, so just to like make that clear for people then, so if I was in your team and I was maybe in the grad team, they were saying before we started this could fluctuate, but on average fee for a grad might end up being what, like 6— circa 6K?

Yeah, that's what we work to.

And then on the experience side minimum would be 10, but obviously there'd be ones that are obviously a lot larger now. I know you did one towards the end of last year that was like 25K. Yeah, but the setup was if you brought on a client, or like they had roles that they gave to 27 Talent, and then I was in your team and the experience team and I made that placement, I would get the 25K against my name, which would then knock on effect what commission I get.

Yeah, yeah, you'd get the full fee. Okay, I know, I feel like you haven't said a few times because you're like, it sounds too good to be true, because it was That was the setup.

Yeah, but I think we'll get into this, but I think this again is a bit of an insight in terms of Brooke as a business owner, wanted to do the right thing, wanted to do good by people. Like, like, this is part of this, isn't it?

And honestly, I think, you know, one reflection I've definitely had recently is when I worked at Allen Lane, it was such a high-performing business, and the business was so generous to people as well. And I think I just kind of got the formula a bit wrong in some ways because I think the business was so generous because people were hyped for me, but I kind of felt like they came hand in hand. So again, when I was like structuring the business and just thought about like everything we could kind of give to people, the tools or like the commission they can, etc., etc., like I just wanted to be generous because I felt like that would pay dividends. I just felt like if we threw the kitchen sink and we gave people everything they needed to be successful You know, I just really believe that would create like long tenure, like really good journeys for, for people's careers, and, um, that essentially that they'd be able to perform really well at the job as well.

That makes— yeah, just completely match up the incentives with all of that. It makes complete sense. So going into 2025 then, so I've got here again, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but just to give people a bit of context here, because like we had a track record of doing certain numbers and being successful, however you want to define that, right? So 2023, full year started with 4, ended year around 8, did $550K revenue there or thereabouts. 2024, full year fluctuated between 7 to 10 heads, again $550K there or thereabouts. So going into 2025, that was what we had behind us in terms of track record. I'm assuming within those years there was some profit in there. Yeah, as well. In Jan 2025, I've got here hard launch US, who was then thinking about starting to do more in the US. Have you done a bit here and there, or was that when— I know me and you spoke, but was this there where you really wanted to give that a crack?

Yeah, like we'd done it— well, I have personally done a bit here and there, and I guess like on this career journey— oh sorry, this business journey that we were going on every kind of 18 months or so, I wanted to kind of launch the next division, but I also wanted to be like the first person in that, and ideally doing it with someone so, um, that then they could take it over and then I could like launch the next thing in 18 months or whatever. I think like I've always come alive in startup mode. I've always loved that side of the job and kind of getting a new desk off the ground and seeing where that could go. And, and the US just felt like it made so much sense because we already had clients there. Like, a lot of our clients in London had US offices. Like, we knew what the fee sizes were like, and I just had— Callum had also been promoted to managing director, so I could kind of, um, take over like the US side of things. So he would manage London, managing director of London, and I could kind of go all in on the US, basically.

And then also, yeah, like, then average fee would have gone up. Yeah. That could have a good dent on like revenues. Like, yeah, makes complete sense.

Yeah. And also it just gave me the opportunity to get back to the part of the job which I love the most, which was actually recruiting.

Yeah. So, so when did we find out we was pregnant?

Um, about 3 weeks after returning from Austin.

Oh really?

Yeah. So I went out to Austin to, to meet some clients that week. Um, I met with about 10 different businesses this week, all the terms sorted, was like good to go. Um, and yeah, then found out I was pregnant 3 weeks later, right?

So, okay, and then, because the— so basically 2025, the plan was after that, obviously would have spent some time thinking about how you're going to approach it, but you ended up going on maternity leave in September? Yeah, is that right?

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

So let's just give everyone a bit of a picture here. Again, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but in terms of like what this year looked like, and then we'll talk about— because I think that this is a really important part of this conversation as well. Which I know you're already passionate about, which is with my business and me having a child, it's like, how can I manage for 2 and a half weeks, or can I take longer? Yeah, but you being a female entrepreneur starting a family, it's like, right, what— how's that going to work with me being— having 12 months off if I want that, or 6 months off, right? But in terms of what this year shaped up to look like. Rough revenue numbers per month here, like Jan did nearly 90K, Feb 50K, March 65K, April 40K, May 56K, June 70K, July 50K. So like it gives people a bit of an idea of like how this year was tracking. So what, again, like if, if me and you were to meet up in the middle of that year, like how would you have spoken about your plan around managing business and now starting a family maternity? Like, what, what was like the, the sort of plan around that? How did you plan to approach it?

Yeah, well, first of all, I really wanted to bring someone in to continue with the US side of the business because there was just so much opportunity there. Um, and we managed to find somebody to come in and do that, um, about halfway through the year as well. So she, she did that. And then I guess on just like a bit more of like a personal perspective, how I was setting things up on the run-up to knowing that I was going to be off. I mean, look, I completely, like, trusted Callum to run the business. I've known him for a really long time and saw how capable he was with the guys and management and everything. So, yeah, I just felt like I had a safe pair of hands there. Also appointed a Ned's because I understood it was a lot to put on Callum, to ask him to run my business whilst I was going on maternity leave, and just to have some support and someone who's, like, really successful in the industry I've known for a long time, really trust as well. Um, and I guess on that lead up as well, like, we were having those monthly meet— meetings, the three of us. Like, the Ned would come into the office sometimes and things as well, so that I knew that they had a relationship, because that had always been more so my relationship with the Ned. I knew that they had a relationship before I was going off.

Um, just doing what, like, trying to set things up?

Yeah, just trying to see how you've done in the past. Yeah, exactly that. Um, and then I guess, like, Towards the end of that period, I mean, my baby was due in October. I really struggled with my pregnancy. Like, the first 5 months of pregnancy, I was so sick. Like, the sickness was unbearable at times, and the fatigue and everything, it just, it didn't lift for me at that kind of 12 weeks when they say it does for most women. Um, it continued. So I was finding it really, really hard to kind of run the business during last year anyway. Um, but still managed to kind of find a way to come in like 2 to 2, um, we were mostly in the office 3 days a week anyway, but 2 to 3 days a week. Um, so bad as well, like thinking about it, because like when the team didn't know that I was pregnant, right, and I was just running out the office all the time, like honestly, and I don't know how none of them clocked it because I was like, they must know.

Um, how come you didn't say anything?

Because at the time it was like quite early being pregnant, and I just, I just wanted to make sure everything was okay before the team knew. And it was difficult as well because I really wanted to tell them. I was such a trusted team and everything, but I just, I needed to know that I was okay first, like, and everything was okay with the pregnancy before I told the team. Um, and then had a few months in between that was all right, like, I was feeling all right again. And then again, like, the last month or so of my pregnancy was difficult. Um, so I ended up deciding to go on maternity leave a bit early. My baby was due on the 12th of October, she was born on that day, but I decided to go, um, on maternity leave in September, and I actually saw it as an opportunity because I was like, this is a really good chance for the business to run for a month or so without me, but without the baby being here as well, so that like I can kind of be on the sidelines if I'm needed. And, you know, we can make sure that like the weekly report that I was getting on Fridays, all this sort of thing, um, did what it needed to do to kind of give me an oversight of the business and how everything was going.

Um, so up until that point your business journey.

Yeah.

What had been like the longest you'd like had off or what? So like this would genuinely be the first time properly where you're like removed from the business?

Yeah, I also— I'd obviously gone on like holidays and things like that, but yeah, I'd never be the first time.

Okay. Yeah, because I think that is like when you have a recruitment business the size of like what yours was, like that is always a challenge, isn't it? Like what when I do step away, what happens and like how that's managed. Like, it is— that's a whole nother thing in itself.

Yeah.

And then tell us about the other thing that you had to, um, figure out, or your approach. I think this would be good for people to know, was setting up your, uh, like salary and stuff to make sure that you've got materials. Tell us a bit about that because I think that would be good for people to, to know.

Yeah, I feel, um, like most directors kind of put themselves on that like basic salary around €12,750, and then everything else is a dividend. Um, but to my accountants when I was pregnant, and the advice that they'd given me was to go on a £50,000 basic salary, um, to just get the maximum SMP, basically. So, um, it's slightly different how the statutory maternity pay works when you are a founder and a director, because you don't get statutory maternity pay, so to speak, but you get PAYE relief. Or that, that's the situation I was in with my business and what I was advised to do anyway. I'm pretty sure that is the way it works, um, for everyone. Um, but like what that looks like is because I was on the £50,000 salary, um, I'd be on like, um, yeah, just, just that really. And then, um, the PAYE really came to about like £22K that I got over like a 2-month period. So it was like they would essentially like wipe that so that I could like pay myself in the business.

Yeah, okay. But you doing that meant that then, yeah, you would have got the statutory because if you didn't do that, then it wouldn't— like, it wouldn't have been enabled for you to get that.

Yeah, exactly.

Yes, we set it up so you could get that.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, because I think that's another thing as well, like thinking about, um, uh, Jess, my wife, in her situation, like she's employed, so it's figuring out what your maternity pay is, let alone— and if she was— if Jess was me, but I'm— I have my own business, like how would that work? So that's why I think that's helped.

It's really difficult because like, again, um, all women only get like 10 keep-in-touch days during their maternity period, whether you're an employee or whether you're a founder. So like legally, I was only allowed to have 10 days in the whole time that I decided to be off to actually keep in touch with the business as well.

If you had more than that, that meant you weren't entitled? Yeah, you're not entitled to maternity pay because what, you'd technically be like working or something?

Yeah, right.

Okay.

Yeah. Um, obviously like I wasn't in that situation, but I guess one really good thing about um, like being a female founder, is that if you do have a profitable business, um, you can still pay yourself dividends on top of the statutory maternity pay. So obviously it's such a basic rate that women get for quite a long period if they decide to, you know, be off 6 months, 12 months, whatever that may be. Um, but yeah, if you're in a position where you can earn dividends, you can really kind of ramp up your earnings through that.

Yeah, okay. And then the bit to add here then, so the sort of intention and plan was, like you said, you've done all these things leading up to you going on maternity Brought on a Ned, had the monthly sort of cadence, we're going through all the, um, the different parts around the, the business. Yeah, plan was you're gonna have one direct point of contact, that was Callum.

Yeah.

And then we had what, like a sort of weekly email where you would get, uh, looped in on that in terms of like, this is what went on. So you just knew at the end of each week, because I'm sure your mind would have been going like, oh, what's going on, everyone's getting okay, all of that. At the end of each week you would have got like a snapshot of this is what's went on this week. I'm sure there'll be like different— what KPIs in their deals, what was happening, all of that at the end of each week. And that was like how you was going to be contacted with—

yeah, exactly. I mean, like, me and Callum was so close anyway, like, we'd WhatsApp all the time and speak, like, just we'd speak all the time. But that was like the me of me having everything in one place once a week, getting dropped into my inbox on a Friday so that I could have like reassurance over what exactly was going in the business. Yeah, what was going on in the business.

Okay, cool. And then in terms of— I think maybe the other thing worth knowing here, there or thereabouts, typically, I think you shared with me what we'd always have anywhere between like 3 to 4 months like financial runway of like if shit hit the fan, we'll be absolutely fine for like 3 to 4. I'm sure that fluctuates, maybe sometimes it'll be 5, let's be there or thereabouts.

In all honesty, I got us to 3 months.

Okay, fair.

Yeah, it was never beyond that. I feel like there was a really good period of time for a few years where we had 3 months reserves at any one time to run the business.

And that's like, literally, that's always been fine?

Yeah.

Is that— that's the history?

Until I would say the last like 18 months.

Okay.

To be honest, like, that number did dwindle, but we were always like 1 to 2 months ahead, worst case scenario.

But you like like maybe some days you'd be a bit like, shit, but for the most part wasn't overly stressed about that situation in terms of—

Yeah, I'm not overly stressed. I mean, look, again, like when you can see like the cash getting eaten at certain times, it does bring stress. Like you're tied into so many contracts and things when you're running a business that you're always— I don't know, for me anyway, like I was always looking 3 months ahead, 3 months ahead, just trying to figure out, you know, like the moving parts and, and what was going on. But, you know, when your cash starts getting eaten, like, that's the stuff that keeps you up at night.

Yeah. So the sort of end, end result for 27 Talent was you ended up going into voluntary liquidation.

Creditors voluntary liquidation.

Is that the correct term? So why don't you just share with us, like, what does that mean from your experience of it? Because, you know, you've had a big education on this because you had to go through it. Yeah, just tell us what that means and then we'll sort of work backwards from there in terms of like the steps that led to that. And that— when, when's like the official date for that? Uh, or is there an official date?

Yeah, it happened on the 19th of February.

Okay, so we'll work backwards from there. But what— so that, that was the end result. Like, what, what, what does that mean?

Yeah, so it's essentially when the business becomes insolvent, which means it can't pay, um, current or upcoming costs that it's expected to. And as the sole director, you make a decision to liquidate the business, not to incur any more debt, essentially.

Okay, so should we— why don't we just start here? Like, when, when do you feel like you started to worry? Or like, when did it start to creep in your hand? Like, hang on a minute, like, things aren't looking good here. Like, when did that really first start arising for you, do you think? Because bear in mind, everyone here, little one was born in October, so you was literally keeping a human alive. Yeah, but like, you had what you said, you had the, the weekly end of week, you're still getting those. Yeah, had your point of contact, so, you know, had someone that you could speak to. But when did we start to feel like, hang on a minute, like, what's going— like, there's something going on here?

Yeah, I mean, I was worried in September, to be honest, before— I mean, I was really worried in September, not just because of how the business performed in September, but like, it's just that giving over that sense of control, I guess, over something that is literally your lifeline, you put everything into, you care so much about, like, truly stepping away from that and putting that in someone else's hands and trusting a team is a really scary thing to do. Like, and also I've always worked since I've been 16. I've never relied on anyone for money or for my income. Like, even, yeah, just like, like billing myself, generating revenue.

First time you're doing it?

Yeah, I knew I could always cover myself and things like this. So to actually have to truly rely on other people financially was a really scary feeling. Um, and then we didn't have a good September.

So just like, you had did 18K?

Yeah.

So what, that's that's, that's not bad.

It's the worst month ever for that headcount, right?

Okay, yeah, so that, that gives people a bit of a picture. So that, so that makes sense. Around the time you went officially on maternity, that happened. So it makes sense that you was already sort of concerned about how's this all going to go, but then also that's in there as well in terms of actual performance.

Yeah, and again, I thought bad month, something's happened, fluke. Um, October was then much better. I think it was about 84. I gave you the numbers, um, so you had everything. But yeah, I think it like 84K in October, so it still hadn't quite balanced out the September. But I was like, okay, like September was just a bad month. Um, November was when I knew we were in trouble. Um, obviously I had a really young baby at that point, um, but I was getting like the weekly reports through. There was like very, very minimal, um, activity on them, and it was really hard to kind of piece together why that was. I mean, historically Novembers have been like pretty good months, um, especially because like sometimes December be a bit of an up and down month. So we always really relied on a November. Um, and like, you look, look, we're a perm-only contingent business, so if we have a good November, that translates into December, January starters. So we're looking at getting paid February. So when we had a bad November, I was, I was really worried. Like, we were kind of like crunching up right till the end of November. Like, Callum and I were speaking often. I was like, what we're going on. And then when it was such a bad month, I've— I decided to go back into the office on the 1st of December.

Really?

Yeah.

What, at the 6-week—

yeah, yeah. I really wasn't ready. I think I shed a little tear that morning. I just— I had a 6-week-old baby. I just— I really didn't want to be going into work. I didn't want to be going on a train and being far apart from her. I'd never even been apart from her at that point. I was breastfeeding. I literally had to take like my electric breast pumps into the meeting with me and stuff, so they're like going off whilst I'm trying to have like serious conversation sort of thing. So yeah, I really wasn't ready to be back at work, but I had to go in and understand what was going on.

Yeah, because November I got here, did 12K, so that's even less than September. Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, September 18, November 12. So this is where he was like— and like you said, ahead because of your— the type of business that you did. If November's that, then you're going to get paid that in whatever time period. And if you did anything in December or January, you're not going to then actually see the revenue in the bank potentially.

It's just always like looking 3 months ahead of what's, what's coming.

Yeah. So what, what was like the, the goal there then when you had to go in? Because like that, I mean, if like thinking about like my journey with Jess, like, I mean, 6 weeks, it might have been maybe like first time we're going out together to like a restaurant or something like that, let alone going into this context and being like, right, I need to understand what's going on. Like, this first time properly being away from the business, first time being a mom, and we've got this in the mix of like just trying to figure out, right, what the hell's going on here? What what, again, like all good entrepreneurs, what problems can— what solutions do we have, and figure all of that out.

Yeah.

So what was you just very much just trying to grasp and understand what's going on? Because all you had up until this point was one point of contact and your weekly email. That, that was it, right, in terms of what you understood what was going on?

Basically. I mean, you know, over that weekend, um, because that was on a Monday, I remember, um, yeah, I just remember like going in and And, you know, that whole weekend I'd just been crunching these different scenarios of, you know, if we cut XYZ costs, then what would that look like? If we, you know, asked HMRC to do a payment plan, for example, what would that look like? Where could that get us to, you know, with what was in like the forecast of what should drop in? If all this drops in, you know, what's that— what does that mean? Versus if none of this happens in December, then what does that mean? So I had like crunched maybe like 4 different scenarios with the cash flow. To kind of come in and speak to, speak to Callum about that, basically. Yeah. And then that, that's what I did when I came in, in December.

And then, and then basically, so I've got here in terms of what then played out, just give people a picture. Sorry, so December, it's like 50K. Yeah. And then Jan, 8.5K.

Yeah.

So So I'm assuming then with the different scenarios that you had, not everything— I mean, this is the, the really challenging thing about contingent perm, isn't it? Because it's like, this is the percentage of stuff that could drop, and you've got to figure out that. That's just hard, isn't it? That's the thing, isn't it? This is one of the real challenges of having this type of business model, is how much of the forecasting we've got planned will actually happen. Yeah, which is hard, right? So had the different, um, scenarios that you went through together. So going into like January, what, like, what was the, the mindset then? Again, like, if me and you were to speak at that time, would you even think you'd end up in, in the position where had to go through what you then had to go through? Like, did the 50K December make you go, right, actually, no, we can get out of this? Like, what, what was the position?

It was really difficult because obviously September had been really awful. October maybe gave me a bit of false hope that September was a fluke. Then again, November was a really bad month when we needed a really good month then, um, and December was okay, like probably just about breaking even at that point. But I just knew we were so far behind where we needed to be. And I think, you know, I was looking at like the numbers we'd done in previous years and that we did 90K the previous January. So in my head I'm thinking we just need to do that again because that would be enough to claw us out. But you know, the weeks were kind of rolling by in January, and I was looking at, um, I was just like on our systems looking at everything more and more, and I just couldn't see where the next placements and deals were coming from, to be honest. So that really concerned me. Um, and then somebody in the team, she handed in her notice, and in January, yeah. Um, so just reached out to her to arrange a call, basically just to get a bit of feedback. And I remember I was like just on a short walk at the time and I thought it'd just be like a 10-minute call to catch up. And I just said to her like quite honestly, like, just, just tell me how it is, give me your feedback. And I think I was walking around the block for about an hour on the phone to her and it just felt like a light bulb had been turned on. I just felt like I just didn't really know what was actually going on until we had that conversation. Until I had that conversation, basically.

Yeah. And you got a real insight in terms of what— yeah, it's maybe been like in the office culture, all of that, what's been going on since been.

Exactly. And then, so I, I knew after that conversation— that was on a Friday— that we're in trouble. And I was like, I'm gonna need to go back in again on the Monday. I thought, rally up the troops. Like, I knew we were in trouble then, but I was like, we did 90K last January, I just need to do a bit of a roundtable, let everyone have their voice heard, um, just really understand from the guys like what it is that's going on for them that's creating this performance at the moment where it's just so far off where we have ever been and where we need to be. And, um, just try and really reset the tone for, for what we can do this year.

And what's probably worth sharing here was over the— I got here over the last 2 years, your monthly overheads roughly between £50-60K.

Yeah, typically thereabouts. Like, obviously it just depends on commission and stuff going up and down and stuff.

But yeah, so we've got like approximately £30K or there or thereabouts in salaries, but then obviously that's not including commission, which again can, can fluctuate depending on how well people perform in. Had like an office in there. WeWork was around £7.5K. I know you said that was like bigger than what you probably needed, but when you had looked to like downsize, you ended up paying like more, so you just sort of kept it.

Yeah.

Um, LinkedIn, you had like an annual contract of like £40K.

Yeah.

And it's like, that's— they're like really the main chunks, really, aren't they? And then you had some other—

bigger ones, like obviously CRM and voice systems and Yeah, and then around—

I think always worth noting as well, so I got here outstanding invoices, you had around £120K owed. Yeah, so that was due to like be paid. Yeah, but it would have been what, a bit later on?

Yeah, but basically where I was kind of sitting was in December I knew we had a cash flow problem, but I just thought if we have one good month we can turn it around. There are ways we can get creative with clients to get paid earlier and stuff because because, you know, our payment terms, depending on the business, the business we're partnering with, was between 14 days to 28 days typically. So I just knew if we had any January starters, like, which we did, we had a lot of January starters, but we'd be getting paid in Feb. So it's like, how can we get that pulled forward? So it just went from being a cash flow problem to actually being an insolvent business pretty quickly.

Yeah. And then also, which I was quite glad to see, you didn't have loads in that overdue column.

On.

We've got 30K. Yeah, because that can be tough for people as well if they, you know, have this cash flow problem but they're owed 120K. Yeah, or overdue.

And you know, it's funny because like 30K doesn't sound like a lot maybe, but it meant a lot to us right then.

Really?

Yeah, I like that. Really could have been like the difference of us running another month or not, like clients not paying us on time. Like there was one 16.5K fee we got really screwed over on as well. Like, we've worked with this business for years, and, um, they went through like a rebrand, and they were like, well, basically, technically, we don't owe you the fee because we've rebranded to a different limited company now. So it was stuff like that. It was like almost like the perfect storm of all these things going on at the same time.

So really, so like in, in January then, Like, would you have been surprised to then know in the future that it would have— like, you was a couple of weeks out of going out of business, or—

No, I felt I knew pretty quickly. I had that roundtable, and that was on the 12th of January. I went into the office, and I remember because Madison was 3 months old that day, and I had to bring her in with me. I couldn't find any childcare, so, um, just asked like the team to let's just have a big roundtable and a talk about what's going on. I'd had that, and And yeah, I'd like kind of planned like this script of what I wanted to say to like really boost the team, but there was no point. I just felt like I would have felt really fake. Like, I first of all opened the floor, I guess, for everyone to kind of talk and give feedback, and I could just see like majority of the team, perhaps maybe not one or two people, but everyone else was pretty checked out. Yeah, morale was low. Had been a really hard quarter, and people back in January, and I could just tell that it was the beginning of the end.

And like, before this, had you already tried to learn about what happens if you go out of business? Like, had you already sort of tried to understand what, what happens?

I mean, you're always hearing stuff in the market because I recruit for recruitment businesses, obviously. So, you know, there are like things you hear about that other businesses have been through, but I'd never like had to go and look into that. And then, yeah, like straight away when I got home that afternoon I'd heard about a different competitor who'd like gone into administration a few years ago, but seemingly from the outside it didn't look like anything had changed. It looked like they'd kind of continued operating, so I was quite curious about that, how they did it. Yeah, how they did it. Um, and just a bit of like, um, stalking on Companies House basically, and then found the restructuring firm that supported them with that. Um, so I reached out to that firm, MHA, um, and then and they were really helpful, really supportive, um, and we were just talking through like the different structures. There was a lot we had to crunch to figure out the solution to, to potentially move forward to 27 Talent or not and liquidate it, basically.

So that would have been— because we've had people on the podcast— that would have been where we would have come across this terminology called like Phoenix, a business where the original limited company, 27 Talent, would have gone into administration. Yeah, but then Brooke, under a different limited company, could have bought the distressed assets.

Yeah.

And then it might be 27 Talent Consultancy Limited.

Yeah, there are different ways to do it, but like phoenixing is, it's not, it's not legal, it's not moral. Like, that's not the way that I wanted to, to kind of do it. I wanted to, to do things right, properly, and kind of follow the rule book with it. Um, and the other competitor I mentioned, they again, from the outside, when you don't need too much about it, it might look like they phoenix, but they did it a legal right way, basically. So yeah, that was, um, more— it's called like a pre-pack administration, that route. So that was the first thing I wanted to explore.

And then what did we learn there? Because that's when— so did they sort of give you a bit of an idea of like, if you were to go down that route and you were to buy the IP and assets from 27 Talent, it would have cost X? So they would have— they've helped you figure that out first?

Yeah, so that was like my first point, like how can I keep 27 Talent alive? Like trying to figure out what that would look like, but how could I keep the business alive? Um, and I had to— they put me in touch with quite a few different people to give, give me independent advice basically. But essentially one was like an independent valuation consultant. Um, so we had to like really kind of deep dive into the business together, um, to work out like what the business would cost and He said to me, it won't be too much, so if you want to like buy it back, and then even if you continue operating like just on your own, like at least you'll have like the goodwill, the IP, the clients, you know, all your terms of business, all that side of things, um, will kind of stay intact. So I thought, okay, that's like quite interesting. Um, however, also doing that, the staff are an asset, not a liability. So I needed to kind of wait for this quote to come through of what it would cost to buy the IP, but then knowing that I would also need to absorb absorb the, the staff costs because you can't just let go of your staff. It's something called, um, 2P, so just to just let them go. So I knew that I'd have to kind of factor in like how was I going to find money like to potentially make payroll. Yeah, make payroll. Um, and then they came back to me and they quoted £70K for me to buy the IP and all my terms of business back basically.

And what, what do you think it was going to be like, £5K?

Yeah, literally when they said not a lot, and like there was a previous business I actually looked into buying um, that was in, in liquidation, and that was like a 7-figure turnover business. And that liquidator at the time said to buy some of those assets, like the assets I wanted anyway, were, was £5K. So in my head I was thinking, well, we weren't even turning over 5, 7 figures, so, you know, maybe it'll be about the same. So when they came back and said £70K, I just saw I don't have that money.

So you found that out. So then was that like, right, I can't go down that route. Yeah, what's then the next— how do you then get help figuring out what the next, next path is?

So they were like upfront with me, like pretty quick, once they figured out that I couldn't really go down that route. Um, again, we were just trying to crunch it every which way. That took about a week or so, I'd say. Okay, so again, from going into, to the, um, on the 12th, then starting to speak to them, yeah, it took about a week or so to like realize that that just wouldn't be be a viable option to continue with 27 Talent. Um, and then it was like very much switching it to, okay, we're gonna have to liquidate the business, and that means the, um, IP practitioners, um, yeah, the liquidators basically like will take over the business. I won't own the business anymore. Um, but I did still have obligations to 27 Talent basically, which was acting in the best interest of the business, making sure that the debt's getting paid that's owed to us. Um, and just like managing the redundancy process with the team. Like, the thing is, like, the liquidators, you really do need to work with them and be on side. Like, they do have quite a lot of power when it comes to you being able to be a director of a business again. Like, and it was really difficult because there was still cash sitting in the account at this point, and I couldn't do anything. I, like, I knew where we owed money, I knew that I had personal liabilities in, in the business, but I just had to sit on my hands and do nothing, basically.

So is that like step one of starting that process where like, okay, yeah, like we have to liquidate the business. So then what, you instruct to— is it like an insolvency practitioner or something like that?

Yeah.

So then what, then their whole role is like they act in the best interest of like the creditors, is that right?

Yeah.

So is that like who the business owns the money to?

Yeah, exactly. The creditors are who the business owes any money to. Um, MHA they have been really, really supportive, um, you know, like through this process, just speaking to so many like different people and lawyers and whatever, everyone's like, be careful of liquidators, like they're not on your side. Like that's a common theme that, that I've been told, um, but they have been really, really good with me today anyway, um, and have like been really working with me to kind of get through this. And, and, you know, I just, I think I picked quite a good liquidator. Like they've definitely come at a cost, they're not cheap either, but there's been a team of them working on it. I've had a really good, um, direct point of contact. So, um, and that's what the process looked like with them, basically.

Okay, so that started. So then when— so then, because you may correct me if I'm wrong here, but then may— so when did you have to have a conversation with the team? Because that must have been quite difficult.

That was on the 29th of January. So again, like, we were crunching all these different scenarios of, like, what what would become of 27 Talent and the routes that we had to go down. So it got to a point where it was looking like, you know, liquidation was what needed to happen. I was really conscious that before I made any formal decision, the end of the month was coming up and nobody had been paid since Christmas. So once the business formally goes into liquidation and it's actually technically not my company anymore, I'm not allowed to like run. I can't do anything. I can't touch the accounts. Like, even though I've got access to them, I can't, I can't touch them legally. So it was really important to me that like before formalizing any decision that I ran January's payroll. Um, so I did that, and then myself and one of the liquidators went into the office to meet with the team and make everyone bar two people redundant to help me with a wind-down period, basically.

What was that like? It's been so hard.

It was really difficult. I just had to put my big put your big girl pants on and do it. Like, I didn't have a choice. And the liquidators were like, you don't need to come in and do this, like, we'll do it. Like, people don't normally come in and do it. I was like, there's no way that I'm just gonna let you go in the office and have that conversation with people. I really— it meant a lot to me to kind of like sit there and look people in the eye and tell them. And again, that morning they were just like, it has to be a round table. Like, they didn't want me to put like my foot in my mouth with anything.

They wanted to be involved in the chat.

Yeah. Yeah, but again, I didn't want to catch Callum off guard. Like, that just really didn't feel right. Obviously, we were having these conversations anyway, like, but I couldn't like fully disclose to him exactly what was going on. That's just legally, I just, I had to be a bit careful. Um, and then there were two people who had like performed pretty well throughout that period and, and throughout the year as well, and I actually just felt really bad that they were like getting wrapped up in this when actually they were the ones that really deserved to have opportunities built around them. So I went in before the liquidator got there, and I just sat down with Callum and we had a chat, and I just told him what was happening, and we just kind of hugged it out. Um, and then I sat down with two of the girls as well, and I just apologized to them for the situation we were in. Um, I just wanted to like recognize like the hard work and everything they'd put into the business. Um, and also asked them to, to stay and help me with the wind-down period because they had a few, um, processes. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then the liquidator came in and just had to pull everyone into the room Would this have been a surprise to everyone who you hadn't spoke to yet? Yeah, yep.

How do people react?

It was so difficult because like the last thing you want to do is blindside people, and but like I had to follow a process. I have to work with the liquidators and do things properly, right?

So, and also you said you wanted to make payroll, so you've obviously made a decision after that as well.

Yeah, yeah, I'd formally made the decision after running payroll and everything. So, um, so yeah, just pulled everyone into that boardroom. Um, his name is Dan from MHA, was sitting there with me and and I just kind of laid out, I just said, look, you know, we're a small business. Like, in the last like 5 billing months, we've only had 1 month where we've even broken even. Like, the other, um, months haven't even been close. And unfortunately, I'm just not in a position where I can let the business or myself incur any more debt to keep bankrolling it and trying to hope that we're going to turn things around. And unfortunately, that means that we're going to have to make redundancies today.

Yeah. And that was That must have been so hard, mate.

Yeah, it was savage. And then after that as well, it was like, you know, everyone goes to the pub and you're left in the office on your own clearing out everyone's drawers, clearing out, literally like cleaning the office, because we were actually quite lucky that the end of our WeWork tenancy was the end of January.

Really?

Yeah, so that kind of felt quite a lucky time in that respect. But I didn't want to get any more like WeWork charges for not leaving the room how I'd found it and stuff, so I started doing that, and then initially the liquidator said he was going to take all the equipment and stuff on that day, but he just said until we're formally appointed, which can't happen until the wind-down period is done, he was like, well, this stuff actually still belongs to you. So how am I going to get home with all these laptops and stuff? So Luke called me, my partner, to see how I was getting on. He was like, look, just come home. He was like, we'll drive into London together tonight, we'll like fully clean the office this, you know, like, we'll get everything in the car and get it home, basically. So I did that.

God, yeah, that is— I think anyone like who has their own business, we've all had like hard moments, but that, that must be really hard.

Yeah, I mean, the one of the things that will just— is burned into my memory, I feel like I'll never forget, was just sitting on one of the office chairs, just staring at the board and just seeing 8,700 £150 on it.

Oh my God.

And I just, like, it was really hard to just understand, like, how it had gotten to that point. And I, I still have so many unanswered questions, I'll be honest. Like, I'm still, I'm still processing it. It's been a lot. And, but I just, I just, I just don't understand how it got that bad still.

Yeah, I get that, because obviously, as we've said it was the first time on this journey where you had like this real extended period off, right? So you wasn't there at the cold face every single day. Yeah. So I get, unfortunately, they're always going to be unanswered, aren't they? That's the part that's probably going to eat you up quite a bit.

That's been hard because I just think, you know, like, obviously it's taken a lot of my mental space recently going through this process, and there are just things that we'll never know. I'll never know, like, if I hadn't had a baby or I hadn't got on my test, all these things, like, would it still have happened? Or like, was because I wasn't in the business, or was it the market? Like, what was it? Like, why did we get there? Like, obviously I've got feedback and stuff from the team, which has been quite helpful for me to just get a bit of closure around some things. But, you know, it's— yeah, it's, it's been— yeah, it's been a lot.

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, I think that's, that's going to be a hard one to, like, just really— I guess you just have to make peace of it at some point, because why wouldn't you? The whole reason why you start this business, because you back yourself, you made it work. So So I think you're always going to have that sort of feeling of like, if, yeah, if I was in there, I feel like I could have had a chance to turn it around. I think anyone would probably feel that, which is why it's probably even harder.

I think that's what was difficult as well, because I had to really sit down and think, obviously, before deciding to do anything formally in January. Like, what if I did get back into the office? What did that— like, you know, what if I was back, if I said I want 5 days in, like, really kind of double down, you know, was there an opportunity to turn around? I was asking myself all these questions, but then also the biggest question was like, well, at what cost? Because yeah, like, Madison was what, like, not even 4 months old at that point. And like, I just— I've not been— I wasn't willing to like even try, to be honest, because I just thought it's not guaranteed that I'll be able to do it. And I had lost faith in the sales team, if I'm completely honest. Um, and I just have something so special at home with, with Madison and you know, I just, I, I just, I wasn't willing to like give up that time to even try to turn the business around.

I mean, already like given up a good chunk of time, but it's not— it's, it's also like the mental space and stuff that that would have been.

Oh yeah, I mean, I was literally a shell of myself in January, and like even like going into the office, I genuinely had to like just put on the hardest face to kind of get through that day and everything. But you know, I I wasn't sleeping. I was just— and it wasn't even because of having a baby, like, she's a good sleeper and stuff, luckily. Like, it was me just at night, like, my whoop band red every day, like, what's going on, what's going on? But yeah, it just, um, it was, it was really, really tough mentally to get through that month.

I know we're still very much, like, getting to the end point here, so, like, I really like so many things in there that people can actually get a real insight into what happens when you have to make that, yeah, really hard decision of going into liquidation. But do you want to just share, like, because I think this is really good insight and lesson for people, is then the, the personal, um, impact in terms of like, we had certain things associated with 27 Talent from a business. So that would have been things like your Amex credit card, or, um, I think we had some— is it— how do you pronounce it?

I will— I walk up—

I walk up, yeah, where you got some money from that. To just tell us a bit about that, because I think that, that was like when we prepared for this, I was like, oh, like, probably really stupid of me, but I didn't even know that. So just tell us about actually then, some people may just think I can take on this debt or get this loan or get these credit cards through the business, and it's the business that is, uh, entirely responsible for that, not like me as an individual. I know you're still figuring this out now, but I think that'll probably be a good insight for people to understand and what that could also look like for you as an individual?

Definitely. I mean, the first one, I'd say like I am through the worst of it now, but this is like the last sticky bit that I'm in because I'm still like working with the liquidators and, you know, getting debt chased down, um, from 27 Talent for the creditors and things like that. So I'm still doing all of that process, but the numbers are still being finalized, so I don't know exactly 100% what they're going to look like until that's been done between MHA and also the accountancy firm and that we work with as well. Um, but but it's looking like probably around £100K in personal liabilities that I had in the business. So that's from a few different things. Um, the company Amex, you know, I just thought I was, um, kind of like getting some points using that. I was like, great, I can go on my BA account. Um, but actually, you know, I didn't realize that I was personally liable, and I would put all of our operating costs onto the business Amex every month, which would kind of be like, not all of them, but the ones that we could. Yeah, like our credit allowance on the BA Amex was like £12K, so I was like, I'll just max that out every month to, to, to get the points or whatever. Um, so did that. And then again, when MHA were like, hey, you can't pay anything now, I was like thinking, well, our Amex, um, account was like due in a few days to be paid, and the business— like, the money was sitting in the business account to do it. But I was like, why can't I? Because I was like, it's all the operating costs. It's all like, that's just like been the cost for the month to run the business. Like, why can't I just pay it off? They were like, you're not allowed to pay it off. Like, anything that is like underwritten by you personally, you, you just can't touch. Like, there's preferential creditors when you go through this process, um, which means certain people are in line first to get paid. Yeah, exactly. So it's always staff and then it's HMRC. But from what I understand, HMRC kind of write everything off. I don't want to say any misinformation, but I think that, I think that's the case. And then there's like unsecured creditors or whatever. Mother, and then you are last, basically. Anything that you've put, you were personally liable for. So yeah, the money was sitting there, but I just wasn't allowed to pay it off. So I've just had to, had to have, have that. And then like, we just had some like IWOCA, um, like funding basically put into the business at some point in 2025. I can't remember when it was exactly, but there was that.

And then You know, because I've used them where sometimes companies don't allow you to pay things monthly, use like a service like that, is when I've used it. Yeah, but the idea for you is like, we can get some money and not going to be a problem to pay it back over the X amount of months.

Yeah, okay. I think we're paying like, like 5K a month or something. I was like, great, like it's just a bit of a cash injection, whatever, like supports, um, cash flow and situations that come up all the time, like clients not paying on time and things like this, you know. So like was just like a bit of a cushion we had. Didn't think anything else of it. Um, and then myself as a director, the director's loan account. So, um, again, I wasn't even paying myself like crazy money. It was like, like 50 to 60k per year at that, at that point for that last year. But you know where the business's profit— profitability was at? Like, you can only pay yourself dividends if the business is profitable. So if you're paying yourself over that, and your salary, basic salary, is not reflective of that either. You know, that's like a loan that you're taking from the business, essentially, which you have to pay back, which you have to pay back. And then my maternity pay, I'm pretty sure I can see that sitting there. Again, as I said, the numbers haven't been like fully finalized, but I guess like as a female founder, like, you don't get statutory maternity pay the same way everyone else gets it. You get PAYE relief So like my statutory maternity pay was just like paying off October and November's PAYE basically, um, with HMRC. And then with everything that happened, I had more than 10 keep in touch days, so I had to cancel my maternity pay. Um, so from like the 1st of December, even though I was on maternity leave, I wasn't getting maternity pay for it.

Bloody hell.

Um, because of the amount I was having to work and check in and stuff.

So there might be some money owed there.

Yeah, so I ended up getting probably about 6 weeks of maternity pay in the end, and then obviously that money's already gone because it was PAYE relief rather than statutory maternity pay. So, and there's— I think there's about £20K sitting there that it looks like that I will need to find.

So, but this brings us to like, probably never going to be more motivated than ever. Yeah, to like get this straight.

Yeah, I mean, look, I'm really hoping that I can come to some sort of settlement figure or like a long-term payment plan for the personal liabilities that I had in 27 Talent, you know. Um, that would be like best case scenario, but I'm still in this. I'm not there yet. Those conversations haven't even started yet. We're not at that point in the liquidation process.

So I'd like to think so. Like, surely they'd— surely they'd optimize to actually recoup the money. What's the point? I don't know how.

I mean, they said to me like the last thing they want to do is make someone bankrupt. Like, I feel like even them saying that, I'm like, okay, so that's on the cards then, Margaret. Um, but they were like, that's the last thing they they want to do, like, because they want to recruit the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we're gonna have— yeah, like, we're gonna have to— you're gonna have to fill me in on that, what the hell happens. I'm sure you're gonna get into the end point. But tell us about Rise. Yes, because this is absolutely— because we went through all of that and now very much like, I need to— we, we need to, we need to get some money in, like, I need to use all these skills that I built. Should tell us about that because this is absolutely going to be the vehicle where you back to back in your set, like just you backing yourself. I know we've got someone on the journey as well, but you can tell us about the setup where we can start a new story.

Yeah, do you know what, I don't think I've ever been so energized for anything in my life, um, than making this work. I think, you know, I wrote a LinkedIn post about the comeback being greater than the setback, and I truly do believe that. And I have to say, like, the amount of people that have like reached out to me from the industry and showing support has just been incredible. Like, it's been so overwhelming, and it's been like really kind in a time that I really needed it, just to know that like people are behind me and have got my back. But I guess I knew that I'd want to start again, um, and there's that sense of actually needing to. Like, I feel like I've got my back against the wall a bit at the moment, and I just need to come out swinging and make it work, you know. But like, I want to actually— I love recruitment, I love my job. Like, I know that I can earn well and have the sort of life that I want. Like, this industry gives that to me, and there wasn't even a question. Like, when I knew this was going to happen, you know, I've had quite a few clients reach out like, do you want to come and work for us for a bit? And I, I don't. I just, I, I just, I really want to kind of go again. I've learned so, so much from 27 Talent and my time being a founder in that, that business that I can really kind of plug into a new business and, and make it even better. But I guess one thing that that I've been quite straight on is that I don't want to be like an employer in the traditional sense again. I think my life looks so different now to what it did 5 years ago when I started 27 Talent. And when I started 27 Talent, I, I don't know, I just thought, you know what, I'll go all in, I'll make it happen. It was something I could really pour myself into. Whereas now I've started a family, I've got a baby, and you know, like, she is the most important thing. So to be able to like have my job, my career, and work in the industry that I really love, but also be a really good mom and give the time, you know, that I feel that it needs to do that.

That flexibility to some degree. Also, I know how fucking hard it is, but like you're in complete control of like, right, she needs, she needs feeding now, so I'll just do that and then I'll send this invoice or whatever, like versus being employed and then you've got— exactly, yeah, I get that.

Exactly. And you know, I love collaborating with people. I just didn't necessarily enjoy like managing people and the underperformance that came with having having a small recruitment business. So I've actually structured Rise quite differently. So Rise is actually a holding company, um, and then so I've got two companies. I've got Rise as a holding company and then like Rise Rec2Rec as an operating company underneath. I worked with someone, Imogen, as well at 27 Talent who came in to launch our US side of things, um, and like when everything happened and, you know, she'd be made redundant and everything we kind of, you know, spoke about this structure and she was up for it.

So she did the US part and was doing really well.

Exactly, exactly. Like, she's doing really well in, in, in that market. And, you know, she was— hadn't even done direct, hadn't even done the US market. So considering what she achieved in the amount of time she was in the business, like, she's just shown all the promising signs and she's just savvy, she gets it. Like, she's got a long— like, yeah, she's just got so much potential ahead of her, um, and was willing to kind of move ahead on this structure as well. So Um, how it works is the holding company will hold all of the liabilities essentially, but also cover like costs for any shared infrastructure. So like the CRM, the phone systems, like stuff like that I've still wanted to, to do again and get right. But again, any legal costs or accountancy fees, you know, um, yeah. And also again, just like all of the clients and all of the terms of business. So like going out, um, still doing, um, the business development and everything, so the terms can sit within the holding company. And then anybody that works like with the brand, it becomes a business-to-business contract. So they've got their own limited company underneath Rise, the holding company, and they essentially pay a 30% license fee of, of their billings to access the brand and the terms and the IP and everything. And then they retain 70% of everything that they right?

Yeah, like really good for, like, for us. I know you shared me, but like, imagine where she's at, back herself, like, it's a really good offer where again, if we're maybe optimizing for like flexibility. Yeah, like just complete autonomy, managing our own debt, uh, all of that. It's a really good offer for someone depending on where they're on their life. And you've got a lot to bring to the table in terms of all of this you've been through, the setup. You're going to get the right infrastructure set up for them, so then all they need to worry about is doing deals and all that, which makes complete sense.

Exactly. And it won't be for everyone, like everyone won't be suited to that model because I guess it's gonna be suited to people that have got that kind of like get-up-and-go, business savvy, that would be happy to work 100% commission role because like they back themselves to earn it. And you know, like she very much sits within that, that category. And it's not like we're actively recruiting for other people to come and be like partners to the brand. I think it's actually probably going to be quite hard to find other people that would, that fit, maybe fit that setup. But it really suits me and like what I want from a business, what I want in my life right now, and it suits her. And I guess like I actually think it will be really suitable to women just, just generally. I think if there are people that had like the right experience that, you know, you like could come and operate in that way, to be able to have like a job that you can still be really good at but it works around you rather than the other way around, I think, I think for a lot of moms and women that would be really appealing.

Yeah, I could definitely see that. And then, because then what you can also bring to the table is like, rather than just going and competing on your own, you would like have me that you can speak to, having me like that, that would be like a good benefit for someone versus going completely on their own and figuring it all out on their own.

Yeah.

So the, the comeback story is, I know you like, you got meetings today with clients, you already got things rolling with, uh, I know you've got some jobs on already. So the, the comeback story is, let's still very— is like very much style started.

Yeah.

And we are— we're on it.

We're on it.

We're gonna make it happen.

Honestly, we are. Like, I just— I feel like I don't have another choice, but I really, really want to. Like, and I need to prove this to myself, like, more than anyone right now, that I can do this and I'm capable of it. I feel like when something like this happens, like, it's a huge, like, personal confidence knock. But I think when I kind of step back, I know I've got the skill set, I know I've got the relationships, and I know I've got a really strong track record, and I'm actually just really excited to start recruiting again rather than like running a business and running a team and managing people. I just, I can't wait to get back to the part of the job that I started on and the part of the job that I've always loved the most.

You will. Well, I know we're still very much like on the journey to figuring out what the lessons are. Yeah, digesting it all. So like genuinely, like massively, massively, massively appreciate you you coming on here, being honest, talking about something that is really difficult, still very much going through it now, to come out the other side. But I have absolutely no doubt at all that me and you could be arranging sitting down, you know, start of next year, and we're going, we, we made the comeback story happen, I made a big dent in all of this, this is what I've learned. I have no doubt in that. So, um, I really, really appreciate you coming on here, and I know that it help a lot of people that maybe have been through this or worried about it. Like, there's loads of great things in there that you shared that just shines a bit of a light on what actually happens. Um, so it's really appreciated, Brooke. So thank you.

No, I honestly really appreciate you for having me. And you know, it is hard to talk about. There's been so much that's happened within such a short space of time, but I just felt like it was a really important conversation to have because when I was looking into this at the first time, for the first time, I like, I didn't even know where to start. Like, it's just not really something that's spoken about that much. So, um, yeah, I'm glad that I could speak to you about it.

Thank you.

Thanks.