8 Steps to Building a £15k Weekly GP Contract Book From Scratch With James Holder

James, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Also, I know that you do your own podcast. Yeah, you've listened to this podcast many times, so there's a couple of things that hopefully we're gonna achieve by the end of this for everyone listening. We're gonna have a real good go at attempting to give people actionable steps. Yeah, on building a contract book from scratch, specifically to get to the milestone that I often see contract recruiters celebrate.

Sure.

Obviously there's plenty of milestones that you can celebrate along the way, but oftentimes I'll see founders, leaders really sort of celebrate their team or people in their team. Yeah, get into that 15K weekly GP mark.

Yeah.

And with your recent experience of joining your most recent business, you've been there for under 6 months, you had to start from zero. You've recently hit that milestone. So we thought it'd be really cool to combine everything that you've learned because this is what you've been applying and how you've been doing it.

Sure.

I'm going to give people, as we mapped out here, about 8 steps that people can take.

The famous 8 steps.

The famous 8 steps if they want to have a real good go at building their contract desk. Yeah, getting to this point as quickly as possible. But I guess before we do that, let me just give people a bit of context. So 10 years in recruitment various different brands, but it's always mainly been contract with some— with a little bit of perm along the way, but mainly contract. Mainly contract. Um, obviously you started in Bristol. Yep. And then you've made your way to the US. You're now living in Austin.

Yep.

And now sort of, uh, yeah, like I said, under 6 months, um, in this new journey. And then I think, yeah, one of the things that prompted me to drop you a note was one of your LinkedIn posts, which I've got up here, where, yeah, in 4 to 5 months you've, you've hit that 15K weekly GP.

Yeah.

And we're going to break that down. So why don't we— normally I like to just go straight into it, but I thought it is a cool story. I like it. And obviously, like you said to me, it's a big part of your why. So if that's the case, let's talk about it. Like, talk to us about, uh, this relationship with your dad.

Yeah.

It's driven you to succeed in recruitment, how that happened.

Yeah. So Throughout my whole schooling career, I was pretty lazy. I think I had the talent, but I never really applied myself, and I kind of took that into the workplace a little bit. And so I ended up in a dead-end sales job in about 3 or 4 miles from my house. And I never forget driving back from a football game. I support Bristol Rovers, and we were playing Birmingham City in the cup, and it was late at night when we were driving back, and it took us about 2 and a half hours to get back. My dad throughout the whole time was basically moaning about how I would never be a success if I didn't change my life. Um, and so the following day I looked online and saw the big headlines of recruitment, how much you could earn, etc., etc. And so I said, right, Dad, I'm going to apply for a recruitment job. And he said, you won't last 6 months. I said, right, okay, so you wanted me to change my life, you wanted me to change the job, but you don't think I have the resilience? So I was like, okay. So that's why I, I basically joined recruitment and wanted to prove him wrong. That was my why. It wasn't money, it wasn't success, it wasn't status. It was proving my dad wrong because he was my idol growing up and still is to this day. And to make him proud of me was a big why. So when I got my first big commission check, I put it on his desk and said, have I proved you wrong now? And he said, okay, yeah, you're getting there. And then 10 years later, finally, he's coming to Austin in a couple of weeks, and, and he said he's very proud of me. So I kind of ticked that off.

Nice.

Yeah.

And that feels good.

Feels good.

Yeah, we— it is important that we try and figure that out. Like, for me, building a business, whenever I feel unmotivated, a bit directionless, I, I'd have to come back to sort of why I'm doing what I'm doing, right? And if I don't— if I haven't thought about that, or if I don't come back to that, you can very easily just feel like just unmotivated sometimes. What the hell am I doing it for? Yeah, particularly in recruitment. I mean, it's, it's difficult, right? It can be a really thankless task. So I think figuring this out for yourself, and it might evolve over time, is, is key.

Yeah, I completely agree.

So should we get into these steps then? I guess maybe just to add a bit more context, so how long— because you obviously started in Bristol.

Yeah.

How long have you done the, the US market for?

So I did— I've done the US market for about 4 years.

4 years, okay. And then before that?

And then just UK contract IT, um, so I worked for some big companies like Opus. G2 was when I first started, then I moved, um, to America with Interex, um, working under Jamie Fraser, um, and then now I work at Signify in Austin.

So yeah, and then final bit then, what— because this is maybe part of your strategy, but you can tell us what, like, what industry do you now do?

So I do software engineering, um, and senior leadership. So I kind of split the way that my market, my network has been built over the years. I've kind of got two platforms because I do my own podcast as well, um, where I speak to senior leaders. I thought there was a gap in the market for leaders to come on and tell their story. So my my network is too. It's CTOs, CIOs, CEOs, but also software engineers. So I kind of mix between the two. Um, obviously there's big fees associated with placing, you know, C-suite people, but also the contract piece is, is the software engineers that I place, team builds and things like that.

Okay, so let's get into these 8 steps. Yeah, the first step that we wrote down, which I thought was quite interesting, was set up a Calendly account. Yeah, why do we start here?

It's the best way to, to manage your, your desk, and it's autonomous. Like, honestly, Calendly for me was probably the biggest game changer. Uh, it's free. Um, I know the head of engineering very well. Um, I've took him up for a few drinks in Austin for a few times, and I know him personally. But, um, he, um, yeah, for me, just setting up— because in the US it's very difficult to get someone on the phone just by cold calling them. It's almost impossible. So they like it when it's in their diary and you can speak to them at a specific time. They know you're calling them, you're not going to hassle them. So I set up a Calendly and I just send my link out, and then my calendar gets filled. Like, if I could show you my calendar now, I don't have a spare half an hour during the day. I am back to back. And my, my, I guess, philosophy is I'd much rather have 17 conversations I know I'm guaranteed to have per day rather than make 150 calls and leave 148 voicemails. Like, I'm all about working smarter, not harder. So, um, yeah, setting up a Calendly account— for anyone that doesn't, you need to, basically.

So really, the big driver there, of course, the goal is, yeah, can we fill our diary up with meetings versus activity and hoping that we're going to get hold of people?

100%. Because now I know— so my, for example, next week, my calendar is fully booked. So I don't need to even think about the— of course I need to do some research on the people I'm speaking to, but I'm not like twiddling my thumbs thinking, okay, who am I going to call next? Straight away after one call's done, I'm into the next. And that way I'm always busy. I've got a mind that can sometimes wander, that, that, you know, that school period of my life where I was a little bit lazy. Do I still have that? Probably a little bit. Um, this way I can't be lazy because I always have to be on the phone. So my call times are 4 hours a day, um, consistently. I'm always top of the call stats because I have calls booked in. A lot of the team don't do that, and one of the things we're trying to get across in our business at the moment is work smarter, not harder. And by using Calendly, it automates it all for you.

What would be— because I have, I've like been religious with my meetings links, but obviously sometimes you've got to drive the activity to get those meetings booked, right? What different meetings have you got booked like in your— because you've got to be really organized with that, just out of interest. Like for me, for example, I've got like an intro call I've got a virtual coffee link, I've got different links.

Yeah, yeah.

How have you organized that if this is really part of your strategy?

So it depends. So like from, from a candidate perspective, I have it color-coded so I know exactly. So for example, candidates in the morning, clients in the afternoon. But for me it's a, you know, it's a way of— Jamie actually taught me, to be honest. It's having the candidate sprint in the morning, getting all your leads, getting all your hot information, and then using the afternoon to chase those leads down and those information down and, and you know, you, you send out invites, they accept them, they don't accept them, but gradually as you build the trust with the client, they'll end up booking in. And then now I've got to a stage where it is fully autonomous. I don't really need to— I don't need to cold call anymore. I don't cold call for a fact. I don't think— I can't remember last time I did a cold call.

And that's because you've done the hard yards of building your network, correct? Building your credibility, right?

Yeah.

You're having conversations, which drives more conversations, which drive referrals, which drive leads, everything.

Exactly. Yeah.

Just tell me a bit more, like, I'm just curious then, what, like, has it always been your experience in terms of, like, this sort of perception of in the US, like, you've been ineffective at cold calling? Because I'm just curious, because I feel like from the people that I've met and spoken to, they'd probably say that from their experience doing the US, people can be more receptive to pick up the phone.

Yeah, do you know what, it was weird. Like when I, I guess when we set up Interex Miami, there was only 4 or 5 of us and we were bashing the phones at 200, 300 hours a day, getting nowhere. And we had to change something. Like it wasn't gonna— it wasn't working. And then we, you know, we came up with a strategy which enabled us to get hiring managers on the phone very quickly. Um, well, not necessarily— we didn't know they were hiring at the time, but actually proper conversations, getting in front of people. And using Calendly was something that I, you know, I took upon myself to research and work out that, that by doing it that way, by allowing someone to find some their own time rather than me pushing them to do a meeting, sending them a link, and they can choose when they want to speak to me, not when I'm pushing it down their throats. Um, in the UK it's very different, but for the US, I think they're a lot more receptive to just ease off. I think the UK recruitment mentality is very like aggressive and very fast-paced, whereas the US side I believe is a lot more slow-paced, structured. They like to take their time and decision-making and things like that. So I just— we just had to adapt to it, and I think I adapted it pretty well. I think when I joined Interex, I was non-billing, um, so my team— I was telling my team to do that, and they did do that to some extent. And then I went back to billing And then I just, that's all I did. And that's how I've got to where I've got to in such a short space of time.

Yeah, and I think it's really important, like you've got to figure out, like there's different things, right? There's different nuances to markets, all that, but you've got to figure out, like this is part of it, you've got to experiment and figure out what works for you, right? And obviously it sounds like you've found a system that really works for you and is working with the people that you interact with. For sure. And you're building relationships with.

Sure.

Cool, so first bit, I think just fundamental, you're— all of your activity, your weeks are driven by meetings. So this is why we want to start with step 1. Can you just be a bit more organized with your meetings? Like, save the back and forth, give people a bit more autonomy to find time to speak to you. Yeah, that's something that could be really useful for people to do.

100%.

So how about this then? The next, the next step is then we're more mapping out companies and people that we want to be speaking to.

Yeah.

So we got here because we're starting from zero. So we set up a Candidly account. Now we actually need to go out there and try and drive meetings. Sure. And conversations.

Sure.

So we put here— let me know if there's a better way of putting it— but we put, you would put a specific search on LinkedIn Recruiter.

Yeah.

Zero to zero at current company, just French, just to make it obvious for people.

So this is something again I found out by myself. Well, I'm not just— I'm not saying like I found this out myself because it's on LinkedIn Recruiter. I'm sure loads of people are doing this, but there's a search on advanced— if you go on LinkedIn Recruiter and go on advanced search, there is a tab which says years at current company, and you can put that 0 to 0, which basically implies that if you put a Boolean search of the job titles of the candidates you recruit for, like software engineer or data engineer, cloud engineer, whatever that might be from an IT perspective, you bring up a list of candidates that have joined companies in 2024. So my process was, okay, so if I bring up that list, that means there— those are the companies that have got budget, they've got projects going on, they've— they're in a hiring cycle, um, and they might use agencies. So that was one for me. So what I did then was go, okay, so let me speak to these candidates, let me find out what's happening within the project. Another Jamie Fraser, um, I guess, term is uncover pains and problems within a project and then use that as a solution sell to the man, to the hiring manager. So what I like to do is speak to multiple candidates within the company that have joined in a specific year. I can see a hiring trend. I go, okay, so I'll look at that. I'll go, okay, so clearly there must be something going on here because some— there's been 4 people that hired in May, 3 in June, 2 in July, which means they must— there must be a large project going on. I'll speak to all of them. I said, I spoke to Peter. Um, so I speak to Peter, he tells me one bit. I then speak to Paul and I say, Paul, Peter told me this is happening with the project. Is that the case? He goes, yes, but also there's this. I then speak Catherine, who then tells me that Peter and Paul are right, but there's also this. So eventually what I end up having is like a spider's web or an org chart of lots of different people telling me all these different things. Then I go to the hiring manager with a very specific solution to what the project's lacking, and it's working.

Yeah, nice. How often— because step 3, we had called candidates. I want to get into that because I think that, that's what a lot of people are interested in. We're talking about market mapping here and being strategic.

Sure.

So like, how often are you doing that? Like, if you think about your week in terms of looking at companies that— also because I feel like when I've sat down with contract recruiters, a big part that you want to understand when you're building out your market is who— what companies have used contractors, right? I feel like— I don't know, I know that's like fairly basic, but yeah, also I feel like this also goes into it in terms of speaking to people. You'll look— trying to find companies that have got a history or have hired contractors? Like, that's a key bit of info, right?

Well, for me, every deal I've done that's contract has been a perm job at the start.

Okay, that's interesting. Fair.

So I've—

oh, maybe not then.

Yeah, I've never picked up a contract job at Signify. They've all been perm, but I've converted them to contract.

Okay, interesting.

So like, contract to hire for me is a game changer because you get two fees. You get the revenue from the contract, and then you get the, obviously, the conversion fee. So for me, I never picked up perm I, I, sorry, I never picked up contract jobs. It was all, it was all perm. And then I asked them open questions about how long have they been looking, um, how much success have they had, um, would an interim solution work, would a contract-to-hire solution work, try before you buy. It's almost like a working interview so you can see how they integrate within the team before committing to them full-time. You've got to bear in mind, in the US, like, if you hire the wrong full-time employee, it costs them a lot of money to get them out. So that's a perfect sell, is the contract-to-hire model. You bring them in for 6 to 12 months, see how they integrate with the team, and then also you can justify their salary expectations, you can justify bringing them in on the long term. So I'm kind of going against the grain from what other people have told you, but yeah, I have not picked up one contract job in my time at Signify. They've all been perm.

Fair. Right, let's put a pin on that then. So we're gonna come back to that because I know, I know people, they're going to be like, right, we need to understand I know you just explained a bit there. Yeah, okay, fair. But in terms of— okay, so help me understand then, in terms of this step with the, with the companies that you're looking at, the premise of that is that you're, you're— it's more project-led basically. So like you're looking at like the types of skill sets and the people that are getting in.

Yeah.

Which can give you an indication because you're a market expertise that potential things could be happening project-wise. Okay, I got what you mean. Okay, fair.

Yeah.

So yeah, so in terms of just to wrap this bit up, how often are you doing that? Because I think that's something we always hear, this word market mapping the best recruiters always do it. How often are you doing it?

Weekly. Okay, every Sunday, right? Every Sunday I send my messages out for the week.

And what would be— curious, like, what would be a productive market map? Like, how many companies would— do you know what I mean? Like, how often do you—

yeah, so it— do you know what, this is the most— it's, it's the most mind-numbing thing to do. But so on LinkedIn, you can, uh, there's a tab that said hide, hide previously viewed.

Oh, okay.

So you— I basically have to click through every single profile, like the thousands that are on there, until I get to a point where there's no more. And then every week I refresh that, and then that brings me up with, I don't know, 50 people that have joined companies that week. So then I know they are hiring, they've just literally just hired someone that week. So then I get to them, I offer— I present them with a job. Naturally, they're not going to take it. Because they've just started. And then I find out, okay, that's not a problem, just set up for market research purposes, you know, what is it you're doing over there? And then I get straight on to the hiring manager. So it took me hours and hours and hours to get through the thousands of profiles, but it's worth it now because all I need to do is have the safe search. I refresh every Sunday. All the people that upload their— um, I'm sorry, every Monday. Every, um, person that starts a new job on a Monday updates their LinkedIn and now I have all the people that have started these new jobs at these— all these different companies.

Do you keep that just in LinkedIn, or have you got like a spreadsheet?

I keep it in LinkedIn.

Okay.

Um, because the spreadsheet would be thousands. Okay. So yeah.

All right, so there we've covered, I guess, really like being strategic with where to put your focus, time, energy, right? Market mapping. Step number 3, we had cool candidates in these companies, which you've obviously already touched on, but I think what people might be thinking— you just touched on it there— I think it might be something that I asked you when we prepared for this, but under this we've got like— you've mentioned it— understand the pains in these projects. Every project has some sort of issue. Provide a solution to this. Jobs, relationship, uh, selling, building, changing your role the next time around, something around job related, building all charts for this business. Like you said, the spiderwebs piece, gap in X project. This is your cell essentially. So this is all information gathering, all of that. Yeah, but what I'd just love to understand from your perspective is again, this is from the context of we might be— we might have— we might have got some contract deals, we're early on, but we're doing it from a standstill, which is what you've been doing. Like, what— like, what's in it for them? That's what I just want to understand your perspective on. Like, when you're calling these people, when— or when you're speaking to them, when you're reaching out to them, like, what's in it for them from a manager's perspective? From the candidate's perspective, like, what's in it for them? You're building it from scratch.

Yeah, that's— I guess that's a good point. I think from a candidate's perspective is they've seen my track record, so they know I'm not a rookie, um, they know that I'm fairly good at what I do. So for that, I think in the US it's very different. Like, they like partnering up with people for the long run, right? So if I speak to a candidate, a really good candidate, and I say, look, I know you're not looking now, but let's just keep in touch, so he knows then I've got his back or her back for the rest of their career. Um, so if they're not looking now, they've got me. Every single call— and this is another tip I'd give everyone— is text them so they have their number saved. Like, so many times I've seen people in different offices and different businesses try and call people who they've spoke to hundreds of times, but because they don't have their number saved, they don't answer the phone. So like, immediately whenever I speak to someone, I always text them saying, James from Signify, and they save my number. And then every time I call them, they always answer because they have my number saved. So, um, I think going back to answering your question, what's in it for them, I think it's the long-term partnership and knowing that— I guess if you're part of a project and I can help make that project easier for you and your workload, why would they not want to give me that information, um, if you see what I mean?

Yeah, no, I do. I'm just trying to think about how you would— how would you go about— like, that's quite hard to get that all across, right? And of course, message or an email— I'll get— I'll get how you can be compelling once you actually they're booked into your diary, right? Yeah, but I'm thinking these people will, will be bombarded, like, so, like, yeah, what does that look like? What does that sound like? Or actually, are you more job-led?

So, so take for example, let's say eBay, and there's another, there's another, again, LinkedIn Recruiter, there's another tab that has see search breakdown. You can click on that and it will tell you which companies have hired the most software engineers in 2024. Um, and let's say eBay are one of them. So I would send messages out to candidates at eBay, probably get, if I send 50 messages out, I might get 10 responses.

Okay.

If I speak to those 10 and I give names and a bit of, I guess, credibility to the call, they're more likely to give me information because they're going to be working on the same team, right? And then all of a sudden that my name gets around eBay— I'm using eBay as an example, by the way— um, but like I get my name around and all of a sudden they then start coming to me and saying, look, I know you've spoken to my couple of my colleagues, I'm not looking now, but it'd be great to connect for the future, right? Then I get them on the phone and then I understand more about the project that way. So it's not about— all I need is one call, and then as soon as I get that call, I can then name drop that colleague to another message on another candidate.

What does that mean? Like, we don't need a word for word, but like you said you send 50 messages, but like, are you trying to get across that I think it'd be a good idea for us to, to chat, this is my track record, like, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, like, I think what you're saying— so from, from my perspective, I'm saying, look, I, I know that eBay have hired a hell of a lot of people this year Clearly there's stuff going on there. As you can see by my LinkedIn, I'm an expert in the market. I'm curious to know what's going on and how I can help, right? Um, and understand from a technology standpoint, you know, my track record speaks for itself. Um, and just, I just want to help and find out more people, find out more about what you do and how good you are, and feed their ego a little bit. Like, people love talking about themselves, um, and especially tech people. So if I can get just one person on the phone, whether it be an architect or an engineer, regardless the engineering level, they're willing to give information.

Okay, anything else that we want to add? So we've said— okay, let's maybe actually talk about this for a sec because I feel like this is quite central to like how you approach things. Yeah, is around this sort of understanding the pains in, in the project, right? Right. Like what, like just, just to help us understand from a contract perspective, like why that's important. Like, yeah, just tell us your perspective on that. Like why is that important to have that intention around uncovering and understanding what's going on on the project, what's working, what isn't. Like, why is that important?

Well, I think from a candidate perspective, it's really important to find out what's going on because they're the eyes and ears on the ground, right? So they— so I, I can find out, you know, is other— is the project behind the deadline? Do they lack the talent? Do they lack the actual technology skill sets? Are they lacking in a certain area where, um, if they had that skill set, the project would be fast-tracked or whatever that might look like, I need to undercover certain things. And it comes down to 3 things: it's either time, quality, or cost of different scenarios within a project, right? And it's up to me to identify and uncover those pains. As soon as I've uncovered a pain or an issue with a project, then I have something to sell. I have a solution to sell. I think it's almost impossible to sell against something that you don't— how do I rephrase this? I think it's impossible to sell something unless you don't know what the issue is or what the need is, right? Like, if I have loads of— if I have, I don't know, a bucket full of pens at home and you try and sell me a pen, I don't need a pen because I've got loads of pens. If I'm down to my last pen and the ink's running out and you try and sell me a pen, I'm gonna buy that pen. So like, it's, it's just a different way of working for me. I, I don't know, I'm kind of going against the grain with a lot of people here, but, but yeah, no, no, not necessarily.

Like this this is something that I, I was just curious to— so it sounds like the reason why that's important is because, like you said, then you're generally going to be able to sell a solution to a client.

Exactly.

Because instead of you saying, I can see that you're hiring this person, or you're looking for this person, or do you need this person, you're saying, I might be wrong here, but this is what I understand about X project. Yeah, these are some of the issues that I've learned. I've actually got someone that has a experience or track record of solving these types of issues or has done these types of things.

Yeah.

Is that someone that, you know, you'd want to speak to me about? Or do you like—

yeah, exactly that.

What it comes down to, right?

Yeah, exactly that. So for example, let's say, I don't know, I don't know, um, an end customer is using Microsoft as a, as a way of deploying something, deploying a new cloud solution. And I know Microsoft or Accenture, for example, massive consultancy, are charging $350 an hour for a net— for an engineer. And I find that out, then I'm going to go in and lowball them by 75% because my margins, they are— they're taking the mick a little bit, Accenture. So, so that's what I'm trying to find out is, you know, are the consultancies charging too much? Can I lowball them? Can I offer them a better quality? Um, contract to hire, again, something I'm massive on. Accenture won't give that opportunity. They want to keep their resources as well, whereas I allow the client to take my resource on directly, so I lose that. So there's loads of pros and cons, and I just try and uncover as many pains as possible, um, and then come up with a solution, whether that be a tailored email, really specific, or a really good pitch on a call to where they can't say no. Um, yeah.

And what do you think would be— so just curious, if, um, I was in your team and I said to you, James, I've like built out this company, or I built out this project, or whatever. Like, what would you expect to see? What would be like a good job of that, of interest?

So from a candidate perspective?

Yeah. So like, if we've done this candidate, candidate bit well— so we've spoken about the, the pains in the projects, we've done a good job of that. Um, you said around the relationship building, I can help you throughout your career, etc.

Yeah.

But then if you're doing a good job, you're learning more about who's there, who's working where. Like you said, building this sort of spider web almost.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was just curious to get your take on like, if I was in your team and I, I sort of felt like I did a good job of that on like X company.

Yeah.

What would you expect to see? I'm just curious to sort of— I know it'd vary, but like, what would you expect to see if I said, sure, I've done a good job of that, I've built out that account?

Yeah, so I would, I would expect to see team size, how big is the team, um, when they last recruited, like when was the last person that joined the team, um where are they, at what stage are they at the project, who do they use as an implementation partner, who their hiring manager is, who their line manager is. And if they can find all that information out, that gives me enough info. And obviously, like, what— so a question I always ask candidates is, what could be most improved on the project? If you could have a magic wand and wave that around and say this would be the ideal situation right now, what would it be? Um, and as long as I have that that's my cell. Um, and then naturally I have to find the person to, to provide the solution, but that's, that comes down to my network. So to answer your question, I think if, if someone on my team was market mapping, I'd say find out the team size, find out the implementation partner, find out the when, when was last time they had someone leave, when was last time they had someone join, um, and who the hiring manager is. And then as long as they've got that bits of information, and obviously the biggest pain in the project, whether that be a time and quality or cost issue, That gives me enough ammo to go into a manager and say, look, I know that Accenture are charging you ridiculous amount of money for an engineer. This is like 3 case studies where I charge 100% less than what they charge you. Why would you not say no to meeting with me and discussing how I can offer you a better solution? You know, the same quality for, you know, 100% less of the price.

Yeah, that was, that was a really good breakdown. So then this is— you're touching it there, but why, why step 4, attack top down? Like, why is that? I know we can have different approaches, right? But like, why do you think about it really just starting from the top and then working your way down?

So when you mean— what you mean by that is starting from like C-suite?

Yes, you have all the information.

Yeah.

And we put here you'd like to start from the top.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah. And then work down versus like, I don't know, maybe like starting at hiring managers or whatever. You really want to try and go at the top.

Uh, because I feel like if I get the buy-in from a C-suite straight away, that saves me 4 or 5 calls. Because if I speak to the hiring manager, he's going to go, oh, my boss will say no, I don't, you know. And then he has to speak to his director, who then reports to a VP, who then reports to the CTO. If I go and check the CTO, get his buy-in, and he goes, yeah, James, that sounds like a really good thing, I skip 4 processes and I save 4 hours of my time. Um, so naturally it doesn't work all the time. You might have to go to a VP that reports to CTO and get his buy-in, but I always go— I always try and go from the top down until I have to get to the hiring manager first— at the last, sorry.

Yeah, yeah, you're just trying to— yeah, just go literally have the person that might end up having the final say. Exactly, yeah, from the beginning versus trying to get that—

yeah, because he holds the purse strings, right? And he holds the one— he's the one that's most likely to have control over which vendors they work with. The hiring manager, if he's a software engineering manager, will have little to no say apart from he has the need, um, and the CTO will have the purse strings, they'll have the control over, um, you know, he can probably tell HR to say, look, and board these guys, whereas the hiring manager, like a software engineering manager, would probably be a little bit terrified of an HR director, um, and the CTO has the power to, to, you know, almost overrule that. So from my, from my standpoint, I've always gone top down. Because it saves time.

That makes sense. And is there anything worth noting on— you've done a good job of it already, but in terms of like, we do all of the, the first steps really well, we've got the information on the pains and the— on around the project.

Yeah.

Which could be one of those three things that you said.

Yeah.

In terms of like the pitch, which we'll go into, but if I'm going straight to CTO, the pitch is the same, like we're highlighting the same pains and challenges. It's not going sound massively different to a hiring manager?

No, I mean, if anything, I think it needs to have more gravitas to it because, you know, with the CTO, he clearly— because I interview CTOs on a weekly basis, right? And one of the key things that comes up from doing my podcast is having the business acumen to be a good CTO. And an engineering manager probably hasn't learned the business acumen side of being a CTO, hence why they're at where they're at. So if I can explain the cost I'm saving a CTO or a CIO or anything like that, then, you know, they're, they're worried about the bottom line. They probably have equity in the company. They probably have— they might want to sell the company in a couple of years. So if I can come to them with an immediate cost-saving effective solution, you know, they would be silly not to. To engage.

Step 5, we've got solution selling. You've touched on this already, but why don't you because clearly it's been effective for you. Why don't you— so basically, just, just so I understand and everyone listening understands, yeah, you're saying this recent period that you've had of building this contract book from scratch, yep, you're saying that you didn't do contract deals to start off?

So I did do— so all my deals have been contract apart from two, but they've all been perm jobs that I've converted into contract jobs.

Right, okay. Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

So is this the contract to hire, Piers?

Correct.

So, okay, so the, so the deals that you've done, yeah, were advertised, or like, were the, the perception of like, we need this person?

Correct.

Was we need a permanent employee?

We need an FTE.

Got you. Until you highlight the problems, etc., and you presented a solution which was, well, that isn't your only option. Yeah, and we spoke about this contract-to-hire piece. That's been the most common way that you've started the relationship with people in the commercial sense?

100%, because I think, you know, once you explain the con— the benefits of contract-to-hire to a manager, it makes perfect sense.

So what are the benefits?

So the benefits are every— like, with the introduction of AI and ChatGPT, anyone can type in interview questions or guess what interview questions will be and sound credible in an interview. Right? There's been a lot of times that the recruitment industry is renowned for having fake candidates, and they have people that speak for them, and then they mime, and then, you know, people have been lying and fake candidates and things like that. So, um, a contract to hire is a great way. It's a try before you buy. So you get them in for 3 to 6 months, see how they integrate with the team, see if you actually like them, see if you actually buy into what they do, see if they actually are what they say on the tin. Because everyone— anyone can write a great resume, anyone can do a good interview if you can blag your way through it. Um, but then you'll know very quickly if they're lying or if they're telling the truth. So I always set it as a working interview, a try before you buy, integrate with the team, um, and then you can make a decision based off the work they've done on what salary you offer them. Because let's say you offer them $150K salary, and then after 6 months that you realize they're only worth $125K, you've saved yourself $25K. Um, and you know, for us, you know, we do deals with clients that If they take on a contractor for 12 months, we tend to always give them a 0% conversion fee because we've made so much revenue out of the contract period anyway. If they take on bulk people, if they do like team builds and things like that. But for, yeah, for, for, from a client's perspective and when I educate them on it, you know, I've spoke to VPs who have been completely against it. They've taken it to their board or their CTO and the CTO's gone, that makes complete sense, let's do it. And that's never been done before.

Why do you think they're against— why do you think initially they're against it?

Because they probably haven't even thought about it. Um, and they think— I think the contract— the people have this association with a contractor is they're subject matter experts. They come in, they do the job, they leave. So all the knowledge leaves that they've brought in, right? Um, so it's a waste of time. You can't train someone up over 6 months and they go because then otherwise it's a waste of money. Yes, they've done a good job, but all the knowledge is gone. Whereas contractor hire, You can scale quickly. You don't have to wait for long notice periods. And if they're not right, you can terminate them immediately under US law. It's, you know, it's termination at will. So whereas FTE, you have to go through a HR process and things like that. And so, and for contract recruiters as well, it's brilliant for us because we can skip the HR process from a perm perspective that normally gets done for perm jobs. We can get them in. Normally the interview process in the US is 3, 4 stages. And it's just, well, you know, I try and sell as I do the vetting, so I do the first stage, so let's do two stages. Um, and that's how I've got, you know, my deals, and I've done really quickly because I've just, you know, expedited the process.

Okay, so let's, let's flip it then, because maybe this is also part— I might be wrong here, I'm just sort of acting as if, like, I'm just assuming a few things, but maybe what I want to get into is just make sure I understand your take from like a candidate's perspective.

Yep.

Because this might be— I might be assuming wrong here, but assuming maybe a VP might be against it, maybe, yeah, they've never thought about it, but also maybe they might be assuming that people wouldn't want to do that. Um, I don't know, from it, like, would people actually want to work that way, or know that they could just leave at any point? And it's a try before you buy. I'm sure maybe it's not described in that language to them, but what's like So the, the candidates and the people that you're then placing on that basis, yeah, would they describe themselves as a contractor?

Uh, yes. Well, it's a mixture. I don't think you can label it one or the other. I think from a contractor's perspective, it's the best of both worlds because we pay their, um, insurance on— they're on our W-2, so, so we pay them all their benefits. But they also get the— if they want to go on their own LLC or their own 1099, then they get the tax relief. Okay, from that as well. So they get more money, um, and they can all— they also get to see, do I really want to work for this company? Like, with the— when we're working with such high-quality talent, a contract-to-hire method for a candidate is perfect because they get paid a lot more money than a permanent person does, naturally, because contract rates are always inflated. Um, so they get to enjoy that. They get the luxury of being able to see if they can want to work for the company long term. And then, but in an interview stage, we always come to an agreement that very rarely does a contractor either not go perm or leaves. It's always— they always convert, and it always works out that way. But you're right, there's not one— it's not— they're not contractors per se. Like, I've taken people out of perm jobs and put them into contractor hire jobs.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're saying, again, it'll be varied depending on the person, but if you would say they're like top 2, 3 reasons they'd be, they'd be willing and happy to do that is, I'm assuming money is going to be up there. Money, how much they can earn. Yeah, I guess they're thinking, well, actually, yeah, I could actually leave. Like, I could go there and then if I do actually hate it, I can, I can leave.

100%. And also it's the remote working as well. Like, a lot of contractors work remotely, whereas perm people like tend to want to be— they have to be on site. So more and more people now, like Amazon announced last week that they're returning to 5 days a week. The amount of talent I've headhunted from Amazon in the last week or so has been incredible. But, um, but yeah, no, it's, um, it's having that—

again, I think more flexibility. Is that what they do?

100%. 100% flexibility. And then, and then we, we write into their contract at the end, you know, we make sure there's a caveat that they do have some remote working, and they, if they do go full-time, because the last thing you want is someone who works in California for a New York-based company remotely on a contract-to-hire basis, and then they have to relocate. After 6 months to New York. It's one side of the country to the other. So, so we factor all those decisions in. And yeah, it's so weird how I have not picked up one contract job yet.

Yeah, it's interesting that—

yeah, and it's, it's really strange. And, um, we as a business have a lot of big accounts that are very contract focused. I'm picking up these SME type businesses that I'm doing a few big deals here and there, and— but like they're not contract houses, they're just people that have a really big need and they haven't found anyone and I've just provided a solution.

Yeah. And then what— I don't know if you'll be able to tell me this, but rough idea on— I guess you're still in the— to be fair, you're still in the middle of this, to be fair. Like, if you've done these contract-to-hire deals, yeah, it's still a short period of time for me to ask you like how many of them actually converted into perm. But I guess it's still early on, isn't it? Like, we're literally 6 months in.

Yeah. So one's due to convert next month, which will be, uh, so how do you do it?

Like, sorry to butt in, I guess I was just going to ask, so you're saying if they're there for like 12, if they end up being there for 12 months, yeah, there probably isn't going to be a sort of conversion.

We'll give them some free, but then you're— if it's 6 months, we'll do X amount percentage, right? And then if it's 3 months, it'll be a bigger percentage.

It'd be a percentage of their salary, of their what, their permanent salary?

Correct. So it's a sliding scale. So it's in, it's in their best interest to have the contract on as long as possible. Otherwise they pay a bigger fee.

Got you. Yeah, sounds like that's been like— when we think about solution selling, what else do you want to add there? So you've genuinely educated and consulted companies on like, there's another way that you can solve the problem with the people and skills, the skill set that you need. You don't actually need to hire a full-time employee, you can do it this way. Right. But what, what else comes into this solution selling piece? Is it back to when you're talking to these companies, you're not selling people, you're selling, I've got people that can solve these issues on that project?

Exactly, yeah. So it's not so much, it's not so much the people, it's more about the problem and solving the problem. And, you know, I think with any company nowadays, they want, they just like, hiring managers hate recruiting. They do. They hate— they absolutely hate interviews. I spoke to someone today who said he'd just come out of like 4 back-to-back interviews and he didn't want to speak to me, but because it was in the diary, he felt like he had a duty to do so. Um, and I was just like, look, let's just— we'll reschedule for tomorrow because your head's clearly fried. And I know that— I know from doing internal interviews that signify that your head does get fried by speaking. It's a lot. It is a lot. Um, but so I try and avoid that. I try and, and, and just come up with a a boutique offering, like a unique bespoke offering for each individual company. Not every company has the same issues, so you'll— so there's a lot of research involved. I think gone are the days where you are just phone bashing and just trying to sell a candidate down people's throats. I don't think that— particularly for the US. I can't speak for the UK because I haven't done that for a few years, but for the US it's very strategic.

And that's why we've got here, work candidates, you don't work jobs.

Oh yeah, that was a big Jamie Fraser saying back at Interact. It's game changer for me. Like, it's been like, you know, Jamie always said that, um, if you had a— if you had the best candidate in the world and you could work with any company, and he was absolutely right. Um, because I've now— my candidate portfolio has got me into some massive companies, in some small ones, but some big ones as well, and that's opened doors. Um, because they've been a contractor, that, that they're so good and it was a perm job, they could not take him on because he was an out-and-out contractor. So the perm job converted into a contract-to-hire job.

So we've then got step 6: process, process, process. Why don't we talk about— I'd actually be curious to hear about this. You've already given us process on mapping companies you could be speaking to. Yeah, that you could potentially be adding value to, uh, um, speaking to. Yeah, yeah. Why don't we— because this is so crucial, like, curious to hear, like, when we think about— you said you break up your day typically. Yeah, morning you're doing all the candidate piece. Like, what, what's— what are the processes around the candidate side? Because like you just said, that, that's going to be absolutely crucial, that you're someone that is building your network and speaking to genuinely, like, really great, talented people, contractors, whatever.

100%.

What's the process around that? Like, how are you achieving that?

So I do a sprint every day, 9:00, 10:30, um, 9 till 10:30 every single day. I switch my emails off, I put do not disturb on my phone, and I have a list I call through, and I have goals that I want to reach and hit. So that might be conversationals, that might be leads, that might be references, that might be hard bits of information. Um, because if I don't have that, and if I don't have enough information, my afternoon is kind of wasted. Um, depending on how many calls I've got booked in. But realistically, like, the way I've worked, it's almost like I work 3 weeks in advance, if you see what I mean, because I'm booking calls in with leads that I had 3 weeks before. So, um, they're still fresh. But yeah, for me, process— like, I am a stickler for process. And again, I don't want to keep using his name, but Jamie was all about that as well. And, and he was always like, if you have a good process, you can't fail. And doing the basics brilliantly. And he was so right in saying that, because you can't reinvent the wheel in recruitment. It is what it is. You have to speak to candidates. You— there they are, they're your product at the end of the day. You have to believe in your product. If you don't believe in your product, how can you expect a hiring manager to believe in your product? It's really that simple. And so I try and aim to add at least 5 to 10 really, really A-star candidates to my list weekly, which I can sell. I never spec, which I'm sure we'll come on to. Um, I never send a spec CV. Um, I think it's kind of pointless.

Um, how are you getting those 5, 10?

Through LinkedIn Recruiter, right? Um, through the zero to zero, right? Um, and you know, because then— because if I speak to an engineer that's been at Netflix for 10 years, well, she might be a brilliant coder, he's not— he's going to be a lifer, or he's going to be someone that's not going to be wanting to move. I'm looking for people that are are moving all the time and looking to find and work with the latest technology. That's a great thing about the technology, right? It's always moving and everyone wants to work with the latest, like AI for example, machine learning, like all that new stuff that's coming out now. Everyone wants to be working for those types of companies. So my approach now is focusing purely on those companies because that's where candidates will want to work. And if I can work with those companies, my attraction to candidates is going to be a lot higher than working at I don't know, Joe Blogs down the high street on some old Java framework, you know.

So again, it comes back down to this like zero-zero piece.

It's a zero-zero, man.

Fair. That is like it. Like now, obviously, as you're building it, like explaining it all, it does make sense when at the core of your strategy is this contract-to-hire piece.

Yeah. And you know what? It's weird. I did a training session to the whole company today on this. And the zero to zero bit. No one had— no one in the whole— well, I was, I say, bearing in mind a couple of people, but no one had spotted that before. And I had spotted it a couple of months ago, and it's been an absolute game changer. And I know I'm probably giving away a lot of my secrets now, but, um, but yeah, no, it's, it's so simple because you're, you're, you're finding companies that are hiring or have projects happening right now. So why would you not speak to candidates at those companies, find out as much as you can about the project, Tell them, sound more credible because you spoke to lots of different candidates in the team, build the org chart, and then go to the hiring manager with the ultimate solution.

Why don't we quickly touch on then, because of what you were saying around it being bespoke, around what— try and make it, um, personalized each time when you're talking to companies and stuff. What, what does your sales process typically look like? We've, we've spoken about all the stuff that's happening around getting the meeting, getting in front of them. Yeah, but I'm assuming if they book time in with you, you're not then trying to sell them on that, right? I'm assuming there's probably surely an element of like a discovery piece. You're trying to really make sure that, yeah, like the pain is there and they're motivated to fix it or whatever. And then you might then go, okay, well look, because of this, let's book in another time.

Yeah.

And I'm going to go through how we might be able to help, specific solutions for this. I'm assuming 100%.

Yeah. One of the most painful things I've had to do in the last couple of months is that I can't— a client came to me, said, um, we game designer. And I said, on a contract basis. And the contract recruiter, me, was like, yes, I want to do it. But I turn away business sometimes because, like, I don't— my biggest thing is I never want to overpromise, underdeliver. And so for me, it's all about the discovery phase. I'm big about process. I remember the old me, you know, 10 years ago when I first started, used to annoy so many managers because I would ring non-stop. And I think that was probably down to the culture I was in at the time. Very boiler room and like, you know, where's your next deal coming from, blah blah blah. Um, so I had to feel like I picked up the phone, whereas now it's really simple. I put it in your diary, I don't call you before then, I don't text you before then, I don't email you before then. I call you then, and then they think, wow, James, I've— James, I've never heard— I haven't heard of James for a week, but I know I'm speaking to him on Friday. And then what I do is I lock down the job, I book um, a, um, CV profile call in 24 hours or 48 hours maximum after the initial job lockdown call in their Outlook. So they know that's there, and I wait to see— I stay on the call until they accept it. Um, and then once that's done, I then resource the job. I send the candidates— I send 3 candidates per role 24 hours before I'm meant to meet them, so they have 24 hours to review them. I then share my screen. We then go through the objections they have. I handle the objections. We then either already have the candidate's interview availability And then we book the interviews in, and then we book a feedback call after the last interview to see who they want to hire. Process, process. And it's so simple.

And then like when you say look down, so like just, just understanding, because I think this would be helpful for people.

Yeah.

So you've found out the pain's around a project, correct? You managed to do a targeted approach. They said, James, you're speaking my language, like you're completely right, let's have a chat.

Yeah.

On that call, you're then, like I said, I'm assuming qualifying the pain further, all of that. And then what are you then going to suggest depending on what you learn? Right, let's actually, let's actually have another call. Like, do you know what I mean? Because surely there's a bit more of a two— it's like two-step.

Yeah, so I kind of know what they're looking for before they tell me, um, just based off what the candidates have told me before. So like, it's a talent— 9 times out of 10, it's a talent shortage or a skill set shortage. So for example, let's say they're implementing— I don't know, they're doing a migration from Rackspace to Azure, for example. I know they might— they're going to be lacking Azure talent. So when I get on the call with the manager for the first time, I make that as a priority and saying— I'm not, is it the problem? It's more like, I know that's the problem. Um, and they go, wow, okay, you know our project better than most. Um, and they ask me how I know that. I never really reveal it because it looks like I'm trying to take talent from their company. Um, but I just say, like, I've got, you know, I've got a good network. I understand that projects, you know, I try and deal with big companies. So 9 times out of 10, I'll say, like, I've heard it on the grapevine and on the news that this is what you're doing. Um, and Microsoft have their case studies anyway, what they're trying to implement, and things like that. And Amazon do as well. Um, so I already know the solution, but 9 times out of 10, we agree on the call that is the right path to go down.

But then surely you're not in that same call saying, like, you should do contract hire. You'll then have another call, surely? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.

Oh yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, so we've done that, and then we'll book a follow-up call in once they've— they'll go away, think about it. Yeah, am I right for them? Um, I'm always big about value, value-add. Like, I don't want to be part of a PSL. I don't want to be another vendor out of 15 vendors. I want to be somewhere where you can come to me, where you can't get candidates from anywhere else but me. Um, and I've proven it right so far. Um, I haven't— I haven't been successful 100% of the time, but then they come back to me and say, you know what, James, Yeah, let's do this, but we want a full-time person. And I go, okay, why?

This is not cool.

Yeah, this is on the second call, but we want a full-time person. Okay, why? Oh, because we need the foundations of the business. Okay, so how long do— and so then, so then it's all about educating them how long it will take to find a full-time person. Well, how about this? How about we get someone in on a working interview for 6 months? You can terminate them immediately. We'll put an immediate notice clause in there. And if they don't work out well for you— free replacement? They don't! None of them say no. I mean...

And this is sorta like conversationally and got like a nice fancy pitch deck about how great this product is or something?

No, no, no, just straight talking because I feel like I believe in my products and, y'know, this is kind of learned myself what way to pitch it and it's very unique And I don't think many people do it that way. And I think the traditional S3 training methods are kind of outdated a little bit now, and we have to change slightly the way we go about it, like doing podcasts and being more involved in the tech scene and doing meetups and things like that is all really good. And I think a lot of companies are great at doing that. Um, I do things very different to a lot of recruiters. Um, you know, when I came into the business at Signify, I don't think even Ryan or Lauren, my boss, expected me to do the numbers I've done.

Really?

Yeah, because no one—

this is you having a chip on your shoulder again.

A little bit, a little bit. I feel like I had to prove— yeah, again, it's proven people wrong, really. I think that's where I'm— I think that I just— I love proving people wrong. And, and, um, I guess it does stem from my childhood about proving people wrong and knowing, you know, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here, but like A lot of my friends went to the top universities in the country, in the UK, and I didn't. I went into a sales job and they were talking to me about all the money they're going to earn, and then now I earn more than all of them.

So, well, step 7, we've got maximize margins. What, what do we want to communicate here?

So yeah, I mean, look, again, I've got to be careful what I say because I'm not sure who I— who's going to be listening to this.

But okay, so why don't we— so what we're trying to say here is in terms of like the contractor piece. Yeah, smart with it.

I think for me what I want to do with the contract is, is like I have to work to a budget. So as long as I'm— the client's happy with what they're paying, the candidate's happy with what they're getting, I'm happy with the margin, everyone's happy. It's when you're, you're taking the mick out of a candidate, you're lowballing them, or you're overcharging a candidate, a client, for ridiculous sum of money. That is when I think it's immoral. I think a great deal is when the candidate's happy, the client's happy, and you're happy, and everyone walks away thinking they've kind of won a little bit. Like, like, the candidate's got a pay rise, the client's got a discount from the old contractor he had, I've made a bit of money as well, and then we all walk away thinking, do you know what, I've won the deal here. And that, I think that's the best negotiation.

Yeah, I guess, like, I might be completely wrong here, but I guess obviously it's a bit nuanced in terms of your, your, um, market in a sense of, like, if you're speaking to companies that have typically used, like, consultancies and they've been charged, like, they're paying an the leg. Yeah, that's part of where maybe we can talk about, like, that's maybe part of where that came from, maximize margins, in terms of like everyone can feel like that, but the margins are good because they were used to paying, like you just said, like—

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, I mean, 100%.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So step 8, you were just touching on it, personal branding. So what, like, you know, you strike me as someone who is like direct, you're very focused. So like, it's interesting that you also done with that on the building brand piece because it doesn't— I know you're saying like you don't like cold call and you've got your way of doing it, but I'm just interested to hear your take on like why I think it's important. You're saying that it's sort of maybe changing and it's important to be part of the tech community and these things, like why, like personal branding, like why is that important?

It's funny actually because you're probably one of the inspirations behind it, to be honest. Um, I think, you know, watching you and watching what you've done, um you know, I was super impressed with, with, you know, how the layout that you do your business and your podcast. And I wanted to do something, um, different to the rest of the recruitment industry, I guess, in terms of setting out a podcast where I can bring leaders on and talk about leadership. And I think that gets me into a lot of companies as well because I think they think they don't see me as a sleazy recruiter. They think I'm actually— I care, which I do. Um, and I have— I've had some really, really big like C-suite people on, talk about the stories from like Red Lobster that went into bankruptcy. I had the CIO on the week that they went into bankruptcy, which did really well. I had the CIO of LA Fitness on, another big massive company in the States, and it's kind of taken off from there. And, you know, I'm big about it. I'm big about being different in the market, in the industry. I try and do posts daily, um, to my network. My network's growing, and I just try and be different. I want to be the person that I wish I had when I first started in recruitment.

Nice.

You know, like, I do mentorship now. I, I do personal coaching with a very select few people that want to be better, some business owners, some recruiters, um, and I, and I do it on a weekly session with them. And I'm very selective who I work with because they are so passionate about doing well that I, I'm trying to portray the person that if I 10 years ago had the opportunity to look at someone like me, what would I want to give back? Yeah, I love that, you know, um, whether that be from a recruitment standpoint or just, just general help and life and coaching.

And it is amazing how the, the whole like building a brand, particularly the podcast piece, it can open a lot of doors.

100%. 100%. It's crazy. You're actually the main reason why I did it.

But it is, it is like, like I do think the most important thing is the intention has got to be right. Yeah, people can smell that out very quickly.

100%.

Um, and I think obviously you're— I'm sure you've been intentional about who you're getting on, who you're reaching out to. Yeah, that's where I think a lot of recruiters go— should sort of go wrong with it. Whenever I speak to anyone in terms of like advice on that, I've got like a document on there that I've given to people because it's just the same advice. It's a lot of the time why you wouldn't be doing your podcast in 12 months' time if we were to meet again would be you didn't really see the time that you put into it and like the return that you got. Yeah. And I know that isn't the main reason why you're doing it, but of course like if you're spending time on it, you, you need it to see how it's helping you, your recruitment desk, of course, and your, um, career, right?

Yeah.

So I would say to people, like, just be intentional about who you want to get on. So start— always start with, like, your existing clients, because then you're going to help them build a unique asset that you can use when you can go to the market with it and stuff like that. But then also it's relationship building time, it's account management time. Then the second 10 guests should be target clients. Obviously, like, you're going to get more yeses. You're going to be able to open up the doors. And all you need to do is say, I'm James and this is what I do, this is what I specialize in. And at least you've been able to— it's about opening, right? It's just about opening relationships, opening doors.

100%.

And then the, the next 10, if it's possible in your market, is then, um, just who can you get on that has a big brand in your space that you can piggyback off.

Yeah.

Just because, like, I'll listen to your podcast not because it's James, but because someone's on there that I would expect.

Yeah, exactly.

So if you do that in the first 30 You've got existing relationships that you're spending time on, you've got BD time.

Yeah.

And then you've, you're, you're growing your network and you're building your brand. Like, it's a good use of time. No longer it's like, I'm, I've, I've got to do, oh, I've got all this time on the podcast. It's BD.

Sure.

Do you know what I mean?

100%.

It's, you've got to be intentional about who you're getting on.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the game of it, really.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's so true. And I think I've learned so much. Like, I remember listening to my first one I ever did, and when I was sat in your chair and my voice was quivering and I just didn't know how to ask the questions the right way. I mean, obviously you're a pro now, um, but I'm— I feel like now I'm getting a lot better. But practice makes perfect, right? And I think, you know, a lot of the guests are nervous when they come on, but from my perspective, again, it's about giving back to the community. Like, I'm so— I have changed so much in my, in my career from being this guy that wanted to wear a pinstripe suit when I was 21 starting in recruitment, and now, like, if you ask me to wear a pinstripe suit now, I'd be like, dude, just no thanks, I'm all good, I'm all good, I'm all good. Like, we have to move with the times. And, you know, doing the podcast, you know, I want to write a book on leadership, um, nothing to do with recruitment, but from the people that I've spoke to, and they're willing to get to help me with that. Um, I want to do different things, and I want to help leaders in my industry but also help recruiters, um, and offer, I guess, a wide range of services. Because I do— I love the company I work for, but at the end of the day, people buy from people, and they don't— they don't buy from me just because I work at Signify or work at Interex or I work at Opus or G2. They buy with me because my name's James and I've offered them a service. And they— and that's why they buy into you, right? Because of your branding. I mean, you've got like 40,000 followers on LinkedIn, so clearly they buy into you. So, um, I, I've looked at what you've done and I've tried to make— obviously I'm not on your level yet, hopefully I will be one day. But yeah, just trying to learn, learn from the best and take bits and try and mold it my own style.

Yeah, I think what I've learned this week in interviewing everyone, I do feel like I sat down with someone yesterday who's in the trenches of building the, the US business of, of the recruitment business that, that he's involved in. There's, um, he's just saying like in the US he just found that what's a lot more just baked in the culture is just like more of that giving mentality.

Um, 100%.

And like, like great recruiters in the UK or Europe, they do give. They, they don't just always give and expect something in return. Yeah, they play the long game. Um, but I think, yeah, just something that I picked up on this week when I was speaking to people about how you found the different cultures adapting, what have you noticed, is what you're talking about there is like giving more than you're taking. And, um, yeah, like helping others, giving. I think that's also something that a lot of people maybe do here a bit more naturally in the US because they want others to succeed, whereas I think in you know, in our culture it's like some— what, like we love seeing people get to the top and then we want to drag them down, do you know what I mean?

100%.

Yeah, like, whereas here everyone like— yeah, everyone— not obviously not everyone, but typically they'll be like, yeah, James, I want you to succeed, yeah, write the book, like do that. Whereas if you say that to your UK mates, they might be like, fucking hell, mate, calm down.

Yeah, well, it's funny you say that actually, because like when I like, I've been here and obviously I've propelled quite quickly to the level I have. And I don't think anyone, as I said, like Brian and Lauren, I don't think anyone expected to. And then now it's kind of really strange because I have people come up to me that I've never met before in Signify, um, and I don't know how they feel about me, whether they want to learn, whether they're a little bit on the fence about me because I've come in and I've kind of done my thing that this is like they've never been taught before. And I'm not knocking anyone at Signify for this because I think I've helped the L&D team, you know, teach this and deliver this now, and we've seen so much more improvements. And as a business where we're doing so much better, but like even coming in doing so well, that can be a disadvantage to you also because now I've got a target on my back and everyone's kind of hunting me down a little bit.

This is you just getting again, just, you just want a point to prove. And yeah, so what, um, what are you like over the next 6 months thinking about this first year? Yeah, with Signify, what are you just remaining laser focused on? What you're doubling down on?

Out of interest? Yeah, I think, you know, if it does, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think my methods work. I mean, I don't want to be— it's I was non-billing for 2 years and I hated it because I feel like you're not in control and I feel like you're, you're judged based off your team's performance. And no matter— you can, like the famous phrase, you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can literally tell your team to do this and if they don't want to do it, they won't do it. Um, so you can't pick up the phone for them. Um, and I really like the fact now that I have the autonomy and the— I know if I've had— oh, sorry, I know if I've had a good day or not by my outputs and my inputs. Um, and I really enjoy that. So yeah, to answer your question, I think it's more about doubling down. I want to hit the 20, 25, 30, 35, 40K a week. I know there's some really big recruiters out there that have hit those numbers. Um, naturally, you have— with contracts, you have finishes, you need to replace those finishes. Um, but as long as you have consistent pipeline, I'm confident I'll hit you know, definitely 25, 30 by this time next year. I've got no doubt.

James, been a pleasure. Thank you for being so transparent. Thank you very much for your time, being yourself. Um, and like, really excited to just see from afar how things continue for you. But yeah, like, really appreciate coming on. You've shared a lot, but I just know, again, it will really tie into what you're saying in terms of there'll be so many people out there that are struggling, aren't getting much help at all.

Yeah.

So like, conversations like this, like you just said, The reality of it is you can share all these things, it'll be a very small percentage of people that actually do it, right? So I really appreciate you coming on, sharing it, and I know that it's— yeah, it would just help a lot of people that right now are looking for answers or trying to figure out how can I get more of what am I putting in, like want to, you know, achieve the goals that they want but may not be getting all the help. So that's what this is all about. So I appreciate it.

No worries, thanks for your time, mate.