Adding £100k Weekly GP in 12 Months: How To Lead High-Performance Contract Teams with Dan Harris

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Thank you. Thank you for having me.

I know you're not too fresh back from Dubai, right?

That's correct. Yes.

Is that an incentive trip?

It was an incentive trip, yeah. So led by myself and Jamie, the top billers globally, um, got taken out to Dubai, Abu Dhabi on the first night, then Dubai for the next 3 nights, um, which was phenomenal.

Good time, really good time.

Yeah, really good time. Still feeling it a little bit.

Well, what we wanted to do this time is you've recently made a move after being in one business for, you know, nearly 20 years. Joined Interex as MD for the EMEA part of the group.

Yeah.

And we want to talk about what's been going on over the last 12 months. As I said to you, whenever I speak to any contract recruiters, there's just a lot more to walk away from. Yeah, of course, when you move from one position to the other. But I think also in, in your case, you did something that a lot of people wouldn't do. Like, I'm sure there's elements of your job was comfortable, you knew a lot of people, you was known, you've got your reputation probably fairly consistent in terms of what, you know, what the year is going to be like. You know, there's gonna be some challenges, but you, you took a leap. You changed, uh, business. And we're going to talk about this, this first 12 months, what's been going on, because I think the really amazing— there'll be other stats in here, but, you know, you set yourself some, some pretty ambitious goals. And in that first year, Interact was able to grow the EMEA bit by 100K. And we've also made some really other smart impacts around the client distribution across the, the top performers. We've also got some really good stats around taking people from like 0 to 10K weekly GP in record time. And I know also some of the things you're really proud of is really taking, uh, the people in that business unit on this journey of when you do that first placement, that's when the journey starts.

Exactly that.

And some of some really good aspects there. So where I wanted to just start is maybe just some context in terms of like where he was coming from to go into Interex. So let me know if I get any of this wrong, but by the time you went on that typical journey, right, trainee, worked there for nearly 16 years, uh, and then, you know, before you left, you had— I've got here— nearly like 60 direct reports, involved in over 100 like heads across the London business. You're a UK board member, report directly to the MD, and sort of your role, you had 3 pillars: people strategy, customer strategy, and performance. Now you really could have easily like not left. I know you shared with me like when your wife found out you was leaving, she's like, what the hell are you doing?

Yeah, say the least.

So how do— just talk me through like how did we feel making that leap? Like InterX or not, like still that's a that's a big change. Yeah, 20 years in one business. Like, what, what was sort of your mindset if me and you were to chat, went for a coffee around that time? Like, how would you have been feeling? Just talk us through that before we get into what we got stuck into in that first year.

Yeah, of course. So I was at S3 for the 17 years, and even though that's a long stint within a recruitment business, right, or any business, but the— because there's such, um, different locations, brands, sectors, it you, you are consistently refreshing yourself. Um, so yeah, for that 16 years, it didn't feel like I was in a, uh, a dead-end job or stuck-in job and whatever it may be. I think the big thing for me when I joined was I used to aspire, look at the, the, the directors within that business. I'm like, right, that's what I'm going to be. I was like, in 10 years, I'm going to be a director, footsie 250 organization. And I'm like, that's, that's, that's the goal. I achieved that. 10, 10 years, got promoted to direct sales director. Um, so you'll get the pat on the back, you enjoy it, yeah, I've made it. And then upon reflection, you're thinking, is this it? A bit of extra money, um, bigger job title, but the role was inevitably the same. So, um, that was probably the first thing I was thinking, actually, is there more out there? And I've got a lot of friends that have gone on and set their own businesses up or gone on top of businesses and done well. Um, and I was really thinking, look, maintaining that business is great and it's a fantastic business. It gave me a lot of experiences and stuff like that. But for me, I was like, there's something more out there. And it was only the timing-wise where I was approached by, by Interex, and then the rest was history.

And then should we just— because I think this will be helpful— I'm sure you'll be aware the amount of recruitment companies out there that would love to have a really high-performing contract part of their business. Yeah, like just to think about where you was in your career, just think about that for a second. Like, what— for other people that might be in a similar position to where you were before you joined Interex, like, what is it that you think would really pull someone towards a challenge, towards joining a business as a, you know, senior contract director? Like, what, what are some of the important pulls, do you think? Because I think, you know, I think that'd be helpful for people to really try and understand what actually could attract a really high-performing, someone with a great track record to come, not maybe open up our contract business, but like really lead it and take it to the next level?

I think what you've got to be clear on from the person point of view in terms of next steps, I had to be really, really clear on like, what's my ambition? What do I want to go and do in the industry? And secondly, what's the purpose behind that? They're probably the two big drivers that would pull me towards an organisation, and Intrex aligned really, really well with that. So that That's the first thing. From a business point of view, from Interex, the best thing they've done was they were really honest and transparent right from the start, especially Jamie. So Jamie Fraser, the CEO, he was really transparent with what they're doing well on, what they think they can elevate going into the next 2 to 3 years. And that brutal honesty was initially that building trust part, because you're used to people, same directors, same managers over 15, 16 years, and you understand their strengths and weaknesses. So go and learn someone new. You're sounding each other out, and that, that honestly, right at the start, builds that initial foundations that you can then grow upon. So I think that's really, really important as well.

So really, yeah, I guess you're gonna have to be really good at articulating what that person can join, how big of an opportunity it is. I know these things are obvious. And then, yeah, like you said, I think that's a really good point. Anyone that you do speak to, rather than trying to oversell, maybe make things out that they're good, better than they are. Like, just be really transparent and honest around what the opportunity is, where the gaps are, and that will probably pull the right person.

Yeah, agree. I think the— every organization has ambitions to— whatever the ambitions are, they have ambitions to grow, whatever it may be. But with Jamie, he shared that ambition, but he had a clear vision for it and go, this is the direction of travel that we're going in, these are the areas we can improve on. And I think that ambition is one thing, but the brutal honesty of of what we need to do to get there is probably a big decision maker.

So just to— let me know if I'm getting this wrong, but you joined around October 2024, right? Yeah, around that period.

Yeah.

So in terms of what we were inheriting or what you're joining, we had a circle of 35 billing heads, 5, 6 people in leadership position. Really interesting stat here. So like, but concentration around 50% of that was owned by the top 5 people.

Yeah, ish.

Yeah, right around that. Um, and then in terms of geography, so it was like all Europe, predominantly, uh, that region and Nordic regions, right? So what I would have just been— what I'd be really interested in first before we get into these first 12 months. So like you said, Jamie was really transparent around what he believed the business is really good at, areas, uh, for improvements. So if I was maybe, how shall I say it, not like a fly on the wall in that conversation, but I'd be really curious just to hear your take on like when you was going into the business, like what were the opportunities that you saw that you could directly impact? Like, because that would have probably got you excited. So I guess maybe, you know, through the, the process of meeting more people in the business, what would I have heard you talk about? Okay, that's interesting. This is where I think I can add value. This is where I think I can have an impact. Like, what were those opportunities that you saw before you got into the, the actual business itself?

Yeah, fair. I think, um, the— I think it was the journey of that. So my initial meeting with Jamie was actually in New York, and we spent probably 4 hours over dinner, um, going through all of the areas, understanding the business and the mechanics of it and how it works and what it's good at and stuff like that. Um, and I probably met Jamie, spoke to him 10 times during that period before I made the decision. Um, also met the team, also met Amy as well. Our COO, to really, really understand what the business is all about. I think with the things that was driving was the constant mission was in terms of the sales culture. But when I actually looked under that and I went into the office and walked onto the sales floor, the energy was fantastic, as in everyone's up, everyone's on the phone pitching, whatever it may be. People could say it's quite old school, but it 100% has its place. And we've seen the success this year off of the back of that. Um, but the energy was a starting point. I was like, actually, that's really, really good. Um, the, the client logos in terms of their new business mentality was amazing. I'm like, wow, like some of these companies are fantastic opportunities for us. Um, and then the final thing was, um, it had such a fantastic foundation baseline from what everyone was pitching, like Jamie. So he's— how he's built that is phenomenal. Um, but then when you actually look at it, it was like looking at our in terms of like contractors per head and deals per head and stuff like that and average weekly GPs, there was a real opportunity going, actually, we have a big— we continue to have a big focus on new customers. Yeah, really, really important. But let's just put the brake on a little bit, look over our shoulder and go, look, look at some of the logos that we're currently working with and what percentage of we are— have we got in there from a contractor standpoint. So there's a great— it literally just my plan when I first spent it, I had all these ideas what we're going to implement. But after doing that, um, and doing that groundwork, understanding it, the, the direction of that completely changed. It was more about how can we maximize our current customers and how can we take them on a journey so they become lifelong customers of Interex, not just one deal to move on.

So what, what, what were the big ideas before that then?

Before—

sorry, so what were the— what are some of the core ideas that I would have heard you talk about before you sort of saw that opportunity then?

It was more about, um, I— because it was a lot of it's done over a team, it's like, how do we look at customer meetings? How do we— what solutions do we pitch and stuff like that? So I had these pre-ideas I probably learned from S3, which I think you could just— okay, that fits, and I can just land it into a different organization. But that's not the reality. You have to go in and really understand how an organization works, um, before we can before you can just go and cookie cutter a plan onto any, onto the business. Everything's different.

So the big opportunity that you saw, I'm going to get into how we approached this sort of initial period, was that customer journey piece, right, which we'll get into. But ultimately, like you're saying, can we massively impact the amount of contractors we have in per account and the clients that we're working with? Can we do more with the clients that we've already won? And done the hard work to win. But why don't we talk about— because I asked you about this, and I'm sure you would have seen this during your career at S3— where they make senior hires and they may not approach that initial period of joining that business, maybe feel like they've got a point to prove, want to make sure that, uh, they show to the company that they made the right decision. And ultimately, maybe on reflection may say, actually, I didn't really approach when I joined that business the right way. Some things that I learned from that. So I was really curious to hear your take on like how we approach these first 90 days. Yeah, no, because yeah, I'm sure like, I'm sure you put plenty of pressure on yourself anyway. Then I'm sure you're aware of people going, okay, they brought in Dan, let's see what he's all about joining a high-performance environment. I'm sure you want to make these people respect you and leave a good mark there. So should we talk about these first 90 days? Because when you spoke about this, I really like the way that you broke it down in terms of the first month. I've got written down here, ask loads of stupid questions. The second month, really start finding out like what the priorities are, where you can see the opportunities. Um, and then, you know, the, the following month after that, make sure you communicate the right thing. So should we talk about these first 3 months? Because I think that there's some really good lessons in here that other people can learn from.

Of course, I think as part of the onboarding, I was quite clear with Jamie's expectation and Jamie's quite clear with me going, right, let me understand the business on what exactly is going on and how we can enhance it. And the reason for that decision was that the business wasn't broken, it was doing well, the business, it's how can we make it better? I think that was a key thing on that. So when I joined the business, the last thing I want to do is people doing well and I come in and go, right, we do it this way or the Dan Harris way or have this methodology of how we're going to recruit and how we're going to move forward. Because they're like— I had, as you mentioned at the top of this conversation, uh, some sort of reputation, or you know the organization inside out. And, and these, these people, these consultants know that as well at Interex. So I was quite clear, and then me and Jamie said, like, the first 30 days I'm literally just going to observe. It's so hard to just jump— or, uh, it's so hard to hold back, sorry. And it's quite easy to just jump in and go try and fix everything and try and add value or show that you're worth your value. Um, but by doing that, you, you, you're running around fixing something, you're not actually fixing the key priorities or improving the key priorities. So that first 30 days, like you said, it was just, um, I'm asking really basic questions and I'm talking like 6 months, 12 months in the business. I'm like, right, how do you do that? Okay, so why do you do that? So what's your reason for making that decision? And just literally just gathering as much information, um, as I could really, uh, to see how the business works. And that's from a whole life cycle. So that's from an initial speaking to a candidate or they have a lead, all the way through to onboarding that contractor and that contractor starting, all the way through to invoicing for that contractor. So that first month was really understanding the business. And like you said, just asking really basic questions.

What did that actually look like? So like if I walked into the Interact sales floor and you was in your first 30 days, what are you just sitting on a random bank that day listening? And then I dunno, you actually listening to calls? Are you grabbing people organically, going, oh, like, that sounds like a really good call, tell me about that. Like, what did that actually— because I'm sure there's some intentionality to it as well as you just, you know, feeling things in the moment, you know, speaking to people, connecting with people. Like, what would that have actually looked like?

It was quite old school. Okay, a notepad, a pen, SWOT analysis, a line for the middle of the page, and then just going, okay, do you know what, that's really good. I wish I knew that before I joined here. I wish I took that in my old company. Actually, there's an opportunity here 'Actually, that could improve.' And it's literally just marking that down. And again, yeah, different banks in many meetings, even like a team meeting, credit control, whatever it may be, just literally getting involved and really trying to understand not only how the business works, but how people work as well. So what are they like in a meeting? What are they like on the sales floor? And just really, really observing that. And of course there was opportunities to jump in and fix something. But again, we wanted to make sure that we impact, make mass impact rather than just trying around and being really reactive. So that was the first 30 days.

Getting a bit granular, but I think this is just interesting. Obviously communicated to Jamie what he was going to do. What about people in the EMEA business unit? Did you also sort of make clear, right guys, I don't know, how did you approach that? Did you also make it clear like this is what your intention is?

Yeah. And that I didn't think about that until I actually joined. Um, so as I mentioned, Jamie, the honesty and transparency part is what builds trust. Um, and I was like, I need to do that with, with this sales floor. This sales floor are coming— I'm coming in and they're expecting big things. So I'm coming and going, how can I build trust with these, with these people as quick as possible? And again, it's been honest and transparent. So I was quite— my first meeting 35 sales consultants going, okay, you impressed me. And I said, well, I'm going to— just to be clear, this is my first 90-day plan of what we're going to do here. The first 30 days, I'm going to ask you as many questions as possible. Please, if you could help me, I'd really appreciate it. And that was as that first 30 days went. And thankfully everyone seemed on board with it. Yep. Okay. And I think because they were clear on expectation, me just sitting next to them, they wasn't like, okay, what's he after or something like that. So, okay.

So you also did the community. Yeah, that's cool. So then I'm sure there would have been— there's always loads of things that we can improve, right? And I have my own business, that's the things that you always spend time thinking about. Oh, that could be better, I could improve this. But I think really what you have to get really good at, and same in your position, is really get good at getting clear on what are the biggest priorities that have the biggest impact, as you said. So just, you mentioned the SWOT analysis there, but what, what made you land on the certain priorities that you did? Like, what made you go you know what, if we really focus on that in, in this initial period, I think that will have the biggest impact. And this is why, like, tell us a bit of the thinking around that, because I think that's really the big skill here, is prioritizing the right things that have the biggest impact.

Of course. Um, obviously the, the data analysis side of it is really, really important, really understanding the data. And then we're quite big on them and quite big on ratios. So what I mean by that is from a job to placement ratio, or runners per client, or whatever it may be, um, it's really understanding their metrics. Um, and that's where by looking at data and then seeing the sales floor in action, then it was a case of, okay, what, what, what can make the biggest impact? And there's— we could go and fix a million and one things or can improve a million and one things like any business. But we see, okay, the business is doing well currently, how can we enhance that? And the big things that come out of it was from a customer standpoint, how can we— what I found was, which is quite common in the industry, you get a job, get interviews, do a deal, um, contractor starts, then move on to next one, which is, which is really important in terms of new business. But in my opinion, that's where the journey starts. As soon as that contract— or onboarding is where it starts. But soon that contract is in there, into that organization, that contractor then becomes the eyes and ears on the market, uh, or, or in that project, um, and you then That's when the world-class Intrex journey starts from a monitoring point of view, offboarding point of view, and get to the point where that contractor leaves, completes a project successfully, and at the end of that project goes, do you know what, I want to continue to work for Intrex. That's a great place or great organisation to be a part of.

So I guess the ratios that you felt you could have improved the most then, biggest impact, was contractor to client.

Sorry, runners per client, as a contractor to client. So how many contractors are in there per organisation? We've got some there's some global organisation, like the logos are phenomenal. And then you look and we're like, okay, there we've got 2 contractors that are currently working in there. Okay, how many contractors are in that digital transformation? Potentially 200. Okay, cool. So if you look at it, we've got 1% of the contract space in there. How can we enhance that? We're already in contact with the decision makers. How can we enhance that? Getting in front of them and actually explain all of the solutions we offer, what else we can offer rather than continue to moving on to the, the next new, next new client.

So was there any other like standout priorities? And that sounded like a really big one, and we'll go into a bit more on how do we start implementing this sort of world-class customer journey piece, because I think a lot of people can learn from that. But what else ended up in that sort of top priorities camp, or was that the main one?

That was the main one. Um, obviously that we can always improve our job-to-placement ratio, so how many jobs we pull in to actually fill in. Um, and again unless everyone's filling every single job, which I don't think they are. If they're not, they're not pulling enough. So I think it's— that was a big focus of how can we improve our— we take a job description, we take a job spec, how can we make sure that we deliver to that customer with speed but also quality as well?

And then you mentioned data. I'm just curious, particularly with your journey at Esprit, and I'm— that this might have evolved further now you're in the Interact business, but what I'm always interested to ask, like, what's on like Dan's dashboard? Like when you look at, right, how healthy is my— how healthy is the EMEA business unit? Like what's your go-to dashboard that you always like to look at? It gives you a real clear understanding of this is where we're at, right? I've seen that, so I need to get ahead of that because that might impact us in 3 months. Like what does that look like for you?

Yeah, of interest, I think, um, It, it, as you progress your career, as you, as you get a bigger team, that is sometimes changes. But what runs through is that, that book management piece. So weekly GP running, what is running, and what is our extensions or finishes looking like over the next 8 to 12 weeks. So we can see a run rate there or forecast there of, yeah, what forecast the new business, that's, that's bread and butter. But in terms of book management, how many finishes have we got or, or scheduled over the next 12 weeks, and how can we impact them now positively? So how can we get in front of the How's a project going and stuff like that? So I think the weekly GP book projection is really, really important. When you go a bit more granular is around our job-to-placement ratio. So how can we constantly improve our sales process to fill the jobs? But then a big thing is around our job levels. But then what we've got, what's fantastic about Interex, which I knew before in terms of sales process, what Jamie's done is phenomenal from pulling, um, speaking to a candidate, getting information, pitching our solutions to a client, and then, and that solution round to the point where the vacancies or the jobs come. Um, so that was just a case of just me understanding that better because I thought that, that, that's probably one area that I thought, do you know what, I wish I knew that earlier, that, that sales process. So me executing that sales process to make sure it's happening, then the book management extensions and stuff like that.

Um, um, really pay close attention to Exactly. So we've identified some priorities, we've listened, we've asked loads of stupid questions. How do you then approach communicating to the team? Like, this is where then you can, I guess, start really showing some impact, delivering some value. So how did you go about communicating changes, if you want to call it that?

Exactly that. Um, I'm quite consistent with, um, sales meetings. So Monday, for example, Monday morning, this is where we're gonna have our messages, our messages for the week and stuff like that. So I used that, that sales meeting as a platform to really just talk about the progress of, of, um, of myself in terms of direction, um, and I'm going, but also the direction that we're going to take the business this year. Um, so after that 30 days, again, it was just a summary PowerPoint presentation, nothing overcomplicated. Say, do you know what, you are brilliant at this X, Y, and Z. Um, where we can enhance the business and how we can make it even better, I've spotted these opportunities in A, B, and C. Um, And this is what we need to do, and this is what we're going to bring to life, and this is what we're going to implement to enhance you, to a) make you all better recruiters, and inevitably increase your billings by executing these 3 areas. And that's what we did.

And then just curious, from a leadership standpoint, I feel like the easier part is communicating what you just said. But then how have you got— I think the hard part is then holding people accountable, keep bringing back that, that core message, because then it's that the reminding. And the first part I feel like is like, these are the ideas, this is what we're doing. But then it's like the consistent communication around it. How have you got better at that? Because I'm sure that's something you've had to get really definitely better at for S3 and now Interact as well, right?

Yeah, it might— it's a bit like a personal trainer, right? Um, where they're going to give you an amazing plan, but if you don't follow it or you don't check in with them on a regular basis to check your progress with the data you ain't really going to measure your success. So I think that, that was, that was key. We, we set, we set our store out and we was like, right, we're going to measure this on a weekly or monthly basis, whatever we was driving. Um, and then it was holding account— held accountable and being consistent with that. And if you, in— if you inspect what you actually expect— so I'm expecting to increase X, um, I was inspecting that and reviewing that on a regular basis. And then that was being a consistent message. What I found with, and I've been in previously, was messages could change every 2, 3 months.

Yeah.

And I think that first 90 days of understanding what is actually needed and prioritized, that's the 3 areas we're gonna impact, or was key. Otherwise, inconsistency comes down, and what happens is your sales team will be like, oh, that's gonna change in 3 months, so, or in a month's time, whatever it may be. So nothing ever lands. So I think that that piece is key. And then using operations like Amy, for example, is fantastic around like the change management piece and to really make sure that my ideas and plans which come up with Jamie's executed.

So being really clear, making sure we're measuring the right things, making it clear on, yeah, just overall clarity from you and, and the team understanding what we're going to measure, what's changing. And then it's like the weekly accountability and talking about it consistently. And like you said, yeah, there's nothing more frustrating than you come up with a new idea every 2, 3 months or changing things. I think really trying to make sure you avoid that at all costs.

Because reactive, that's the problem with that.

So one of the, one of the things that we wanted to talk about then is this real focus on the journey starting when that contractor gets on board. And as you said, that, that was a big opportunity. What were some of the, the first, like, levers that we looked at then to really improve that? Was it contractor aftercare? Was it making sure that everyone, as soon as they place that contractor, that they've then got a particular meeting booked in? I don't know, like, what were some of the, the tactical things that we then started to implement and do that we're hoping will result in more contractors in these projects that we're aiming to do?

Of course, yeah. Look, I think Obviously the team done me a favor because that difficult of going winning new business, they were doing that. And I think that the, as I mentioned earlier, the journey in my opinion starts as soon as that deal's done. So the client offers, can accepts, okay, now we're off to the races. And then it all starts from our onboarding call. So checking in with them, is the contract, are you clear on the contract? Are you clear on payment terms? You clear how you're getting paid and stuff like that. And just checking in service, just to let you know, I've spoken to the client, they're really looking forward to you getting there, really excited you're getting started, here's some pre-work, whatever it may be, here's some stuff to make sure you're ready for your first day. And then when they're in their first day check-in, make sure they're going well, first week going well, but then we fall into that monitoring process where we monitor that contractor. A, to making sure that they're clear on their expectations from their boss and the project and they're delivering how they expected, there's no issues with pay. So I think that's the first starting point, but as relationship evolves with that contractor, then it comes into what's going on, eyes and ears in the market, what else is going on in the project that you can make us aware of, and then we can take that back to the customer. If there's any pain points that the contractor's finding, we can then take that back to the client or to the hiring manager. And we really quite, we set the scene on that right at the start. So the contractor has that expectation, but also the hiring manager, we're going to speak to you on a regular basis, biweekly, whatever we agree, But as long as you stick to it. So rather than me saying you must speak to your hiring manager every week, it's probably not realistic. But if you set the scene, I'm going to contact you on a monthly basis with a progress report on how the contractor's doing, but also give you information from their side, how the project's progressing. And so you can feed that back. Setting that expectation with the line manager, they're like, brilliant. From a service point of view, it's not just a body shop. I'm just putting a bum on a seat and not speaking to them again. And that's how the relationship evolved. And it got to a point where actually, can you help us with this? Can you help us with that? 'Actually, we can— we've got a resource planning meeting. Can you be part of that for the next 3 months?' And, and it goes on from there.

Because I was going to ask you, those types of meetings, I think it's what's really helpful for recruiters is really to get in the mindset of like what's in it for them. So from what I heard there, from like a hiring manager standpoint, you mentioned progress report. I can give you good information, or hopefully helpful information, on how the project's going, what the contractor's saying that maybe is an issue or is a recurring challenge. So is it those types of things then that is in it for them, for these, you know, consistent meetings that, like you said, we're setting expectations around? Because that's how we need to think about it.

100%. I think if you go in and sell your proposition or sell your solutions or sell your brand, or obviously selling yourself is important, but no one, no hiring manager will buy unless you tap into their pain point. And if you identify what the pain point is and then you and you go, right, here's a solution to fix that. I've learned that a lot from Jamie. Um, that's, that, that, that's the game changer, and that's where clients' ears prick up and go, yeah, actually you're a valued partner rather than just a CV pusher.

So with, with like changing this or implementing this, like it almost— I don't want to say like it sounds obvious, right? But surely if I was a, if I was a recruiter in, uh, Interex like that would be fairly obvious to see what the benefit will be in terms of, okay, so I could have my weekly GP at X, but I could grow that by not signing any more new clients, but actually like leveraging and really getting the most out of my existing relationships that I'm building more and more of a track record with. So did you have— I think whenever we're thinking about changing behaviors, I feel like we also have to talk about incentives, right? Because I think if we're trying to change behavior, the best way to do that is make sure those behaviors are incentivized, right? Versus I'm doing this because my manager Dan told me, my new MD, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So what, what did that look like? Did you start putting in some incentives that really motivated people even further, or like really matched up with your message and be like, right, I'm measuring this, we've had so-and-so achieve this? I don't know, like how do we think about that? Because I feel like incentives is the best way to change those behaviors or encourage more of the behaviors that we want?

Yeah, of course. I think, yeah, there's a number of reasons to— people, some people buy off recognition, some people get motivated by cash, whatever it may be. I don't think just throwing cash incentives at every single thing we want to fix is sustainable. So it comes down to behavioral change. So I think when people actually see the results of that, celebrating that, bringing that to life— and yes, we have our monthly Ignite sessions, like a monthly monthly, um, meeting where both cities get— or Miami and London get together, um, and celebrate success. And we implemented in that going, do you know what, we've got a defensive champion here who's come in and actually looked after the— and obviously we've got to focus on new business. Yeah, I don't want to forget about that.

Oh yeah, of course.

But the defensive champion piece is, is on a monthly basis, who's actually gone in and spoke to a customer and protected that customer and actually helped with that customer. And then celebrating that just as much as we would celebrate new business. It's that, that light bulb moment from a consultant going, actually If I extend all my contractors, it gives me a good baseline. But also rather than me cold calling or BDing or whatever it may be, I'm going to get so much more information and opportunity out of a customer we've already got terms agreed with, we've all got some sort of relationship with, and that's where they can really kick on.

So really make it— so it's weaved into incentives, but then also you're saying if there's people that you see really implement this stuff and they get some good wins with it, making sure everyone's aware of that, putting them on a pedestal, championing them. And that, that's been pretty effective.

Exactly that, yeah.

What about actual— this might be normal, I don't know— but like, what about actual having like kickers and like com stuff that attach to this? Do you play around with any of that, or not?

Not really. Um, and I think the— obviously the success of a recruiter is based on their billings, right? Um, and if they're seeing an opportunity in there, and it's, it's when— if you look at the top, if you look at top biller on predominantly most businesses, if they're— whatever they're running, if they've got 20, 30, 40, 50 contracts, 100 contracts, whatever it may be. Um, it's very rare that they'll be in 100 different organizations or 50 different organizations. They'll probably have 4 or 5 big clients that have come out and got repeat business from, and it's, and it's getting all of the business at Intrix to understand that. Kind of, if you look at Ethan Hall, for example, or Joe Brogan or Charlie Goldsmith, all these, all these powerful billers, if you actually look at their client bases, they've gone in and they've really supported and looked after a customer, and it, that's what gives them the repeat business. So it's really using them as well to realize that this is the way forward.

Yeah, yeah, I've definitely, I've definitely found that when I've interviewed people through to break down their book, it's normally that. I mean, should we— I definitely want to go through some of the, the things that I think a lot of people can learn from as well, is that bring on new people into the business, getting them up and running, because I think that can always be challenging for businesses that are trying to grow their contract teams. But do you want to talk to us a bit about— obviously we had this stat around the book concentration with it being circa there or thereabouts 50% across the top performers, and then now that's more looking like a third there and thereabouts. Like you said, there's— from a company standpoint, having your best performers linked to like the biggest accounts, that there's obviously then from a company standpoint there's you've got your eggs in maybe too many baskets there from an employee standpoint, and that's something that we probably want to be looking at. So how, how do we go about changing that? Like, is that something that you directly communicated to people, or was it just back to what we're talking about here? Because we're championing, uh, more runners into clients, then there's more people that have bigger accounts, for example. Is it, is it just through that, or did we intentionally do anything else around changing that?

No, there wasn't, there wasn't necessarily a focus on that. It was more the, um, when I joined obviously with, with Jamie over in the US, there was, um, that before myself there wasn't anyone into from a leadership standpoint. So that little bit of churn which every organization does, and that was replenished by, um, the new people coming in who are new to their career and rookies or whatever, whatever it may be. So we come in and we gave them, right, what can, what can we do as an organization to support not only our top billers to continue to grow, but also how can we spend time, dedicating time and focus on our rookies to get them to how quickly they can do a deal. And we've brought that down to around about 9 weeks now that they're getting from inception doing their first deal. Then after that, it's how we onboard them to their second deal. Then it goes out to profitability. So I think it was focusing on, right, that's our goal. How can we get them up and running quicker? Then off the back of that, this is your new business element. When you've got these contractors, and this is what the world-class journey you go on, but the initial starting out your career, you have to be de— build relationships, get your name out there, whatever it may be. Where we really kicked on was the— or this year was the 6 months plus. They've gone through that onboarding or onboarding plan. They've just started to do their 1, 2, K Weekly GP or runners. I'm like, right, now you've got them customers, what can we do to enhance that and bring that forward as well as your new business? And that's where the Weekly GP has kicked on with that population there. So it's more of a replicable, it's more of a repeatable process that we know actually how this— how we onboard, this is how we enhance the contractors, enhance the consultants, probably, sorry. And then we can just repeat that process um, all right, um, which makes it scalable.

So it's really through all of that that diversification of the book really happened, basically?

That's the result. That's the result. That wasn't the focus.

Yeah, got you. Okay, well, I want to go into this in a bit more detail then, because I think there'll be— I think any great recruitment business that gets to where you guys are at gets this bit right, and they really try and focus on it, which is um, not just being reliant on getting senior people from other recruitment businesses into the business. They have really thought about, right, how can we build a platform environment where we can take someone like where you started your career and get them to a really great, a great point, right? So whenever I speak to recruitment companies on the contractor side, for whatever reason, it, it— I don't know if you've seen this at S3 as well, like, it, it can just seem a bit harder to kick things on and get things going. Like, if I think of a recruitment business that I might have spoke to, you know, over the last 4-6 weeks where they've hired in a cohort of people to kickstart their contractor book, it's probably taken them longer than they anticipated. And I feel like sometimes this can be the case more so compared to perm, where a hire— we're bringing a rookie and it just takes longer to get them to those important milestones from a contractor-runner standpoint. So I know there'll be a lot of people interested in how you guys have approached this. What, what are typically the, the milestones that you aim for? Out of interest, I think that's always interesting. So like, what are the important milestones you want to get people to? Is it right in the first 6 months? You mentioned the first deal there. Maybe that's one thing that we really look at. Then we look at free runner. I don't know, like, what are the important performance milestones that you really look on that rookie journey?

Yeah, of course. I think the advantage we've got, we've got some fantastic billies within the organization, so that's probably the North Star. So an Ethan Hall, Joe Braggins, I mentioned earlier, Charlie, stuff like that. Um, these, these people have, um, have been there and done it, so that's an all-star. And every rookie that, or any person that comes in starting their careers, go, I want to be the next Ethan Hall, I want to be the next Joe, whatever it is. Um, we're like, one step at a time, let's get the— what, what, how, what we're going to do to onboard you, to understand that you are clear on the Intrex processes and also the solutions that we offer. Yeah. You add to that and you add follow the Intrex processes, the rest of that will come. So I think that's the standpoint. In terms of measures, we will look at our speed to first deal. So how quickly can you get up and get your first deal on the board kind of thing?

Is that like a split deal or is it the first like brought on their own clients First boarding home, it's the first 360 deal.

And I think, I think that's really, really important because it's, it's, um, it gets that off your back in terms— and I think that, I think that's important. Go, right, I've done my first deal now, um, now we can kick on from that. Um, after that we would let look at our, um, our speed profitability. So how can we get to X amount of weekly GP per week within that team? Um, and I think that's where the magic happens because everyone says have an onboarding, um, process or scheme and they, they're going to sit on PowerPoint and and go through these training sessions and go right, you're off into the big wide world. But our enhanced programming from, okay, after the onboarding, you've done your first deal, what are you going to do between that week 9 to week 52 over the next 9 months? They're going, right, how can you craft your pitch? How can you understand the solutions that we offer? And add all this different information we give them and then make sure that lands. And if they do that, Naturally, that's where we're seeing the progress of people going towards the top billers. So we have a real focus on that and we're quite clear on our expectations right at the start that that's what your first year is going to look like. Some go faster, some we need to work with a little bit more. But the most important thing is that we're supporting everybody to get to that point where by the end of month 12, they understand the business, they understand our solutions, they're confident pitching, they've got a smaller customer base that they can enhance and grow and then continue to add new business to that every single year.

Yeah, so what, how long do you view like onboarding? Like 3 months?

Yeah, 12 weeks. Yeah, well, there are thereabouts, 12 weeks, but the, um, it intense. We've got a fantastic L&D team, um, so the first 5 to 6 weeks is intense from that. 6 to 12, it's still touchpoint, but then from week 12, it'll then get handed over to like the team, to their manager. And but they'll still have touchpoints with myself, um, the senior directors, Connor White, other directors, and then we'll continue to have have, um, training development plans, stuff like that in their MBRs.

And then just because, like, you can also give us, like, what you— it may change over the years, I don't know, but I do think this, this would be really helpful for other leaders, which is why I wanted to ask. But you can bring in, like, insights from what you saw at S3, what you see at Interact. But like you said there, any, any recruitment business that I speak to that is scaling, one of their north star metrics is productivity per head. So just talk to us a bit about like what have you typically worked to then when it comes— you mentioned their speed to profitability, like what— give us a bit of a benchmark there in terms of what you feel like from what you've seen what good looks like, because I think that'd be really helpful for businesses that are bringing, you know, want to, you know, develop their own talent or even just bring in people. That is something they would have mapped. So I think it'd be interesting to hear your take on like what that looks like from a contract standpoint. What does that typically look like?

So from a— if we can, if we can get to profitability within 6 months, so that next 3, that 3 months after, that'd be fantastic. Um, but we've got, again, we've got some shining stars that have come through. So like a Tom Cullen, Speed 10K, he's gone from nought to 10K in what, 8, 9 months, um, kind of thing. Um, Harry Bennett in the US, I think 7 months to 10K. Um, so it shows what we can do and how quick we can go. And then Everyone, it's the same process, the same system, and it's down to the person or the individual to execute that. Um, so I think that's what we look at. But yeah, 6 months, we can get them people to break even in 6 months, like, we'll— and that's everybody— we're over the moon.

But I'm assuming like $10K isn't the profit, like weekly GP, that means then they're profitable, right? What does that number vary from in terms of if they get their weekly GP to $5K weekly GP? Yeah, we're in a good profitable—

yeah, if we go— if we get to $3K in profitability, that'd be fantastic. But our our yields are what we've averaged so far this year is a lot higher than that. Um, so yeah, we don't want to make, uh, 3K the, the benchmark, um, especially when we've got people around us that are getting to 10K in their first year.

Yeah.

Um, and I think that's why we, uh, that, that becomes the benchmark. We want everyone to achieve that.

How many— just, just out of interest, because when I've met contract recruiters or we've worked with recruitment companies that have contract teams, it does seem to be like there's certain milestones that mean more when it comes to like building your contract book. $10K seems like a pretty like definitely we want to celebrate this. $15K seems like another sort of fairly big milestone, and then so on. From what you've seen on average, typically, like those examples you said, how many clients you reckon you need to get to that first big milestone, $10K weekly GP? Like, what have you typically seen? I think that'd be interesting to hear what you've seen that for people.

I, I say 10K because that's what I've been brought up on from the near 3 days. Um, at Interex, it's more like 20K is the, is the, is the, is the badge of honor kind of thing. That's what everyone's driving out, driving towards too. Um, but, um, for me, I think there's— you could be on 20K and have 5 clients. And I think that from a 10K weekly GP standpoint, 3 to 5 clients in terms if you follow the Interex process is more than enough clients to get yourself to 10K. Um, and then you can take on depending when you've hit a project or whatever it may be.

Where have you— so just focus on this for a second. What have you consistently found to be the typical, like, blockers that have— bar putting aside the person willing to put in the reps, show up, do that. Let's say they've got that. What are the typical things that maybe you've had to spend more time with people, or your management team have had to spend more time with people maybe certain skill gaps or blockers that maybe, yeah, just prevent people from getting to that first milestone as quickly as you'd like them to? What have you run into? Like, commonalities there? Is it on the sales side? Is it actually just not doing enough volume? Is it actually this customer journey piece? Actually, rather than just getting on to try and get your next client, actually, what have we done to really get the most out of that first client that you've worked really hard to bring on? What are the typical blockers that you found that can maybe slow people down sometimes?

I think in general, I think that you need— work ethic is a baseline, right? So if you work hard, as you mean putting the numbers and put the reps in, I think that, that, that speaks for itself. And I think thankfully I've got a sales floor that does that. Um, I think the, um, the second thing is a continued appetite to learn and improve. And, um, but the big thing is inquisitive, and that, that is internally speaking to people who have been there and done it, but also customers. So if you're not being inquisitive of a customer and you think you know everything about a customer, I think, I think where the value is is more in the what you don't know about the customer more than what you do. So I think that inquisitiveness is, is, is something that we really push within all of our juniors, even our senior people, a lot around our juniors to really understand and find out what's going on within an organization and why would they be talking to you.

Do you think that can be trained?

100%. 100%.

No, because I always, we always, like, I always run into that. And I think now as well with like technology and AI, like in terms of seeing the information in front of you, that's going to become more and more accessible. But it's like having that ability to connect the dots and go, Dan told me this, which is why I'm now going to say that to so-and-so. That sort of commercial connecting the dots. So that's what you're talking about, right? In terms of like doing that more effectively and seeing those opportunities, right? I've just found this out actually on my first 90-day calls with the contractor, right? I need to to go and add to that. Whereas sometimes people get that information and then their manager will find out they've got it 5 days later, like, fucking hell, why haven't you done that? Or you should have spoke to him about that. How do we improve that?

I think the— it's quite funny because in general, I've been doing this for what, last 18, 19 years? Any consultant would tell you what the job is. Oh, they pulled a job. Okay, what job is it? It's a project manager, for example. But if you're going to ask, okay, so this is your organization name. It depends if you're in what sector, but if you're in a commercial sector and YP is just doing digital transformation and you come up with a company name, okay, so what they do? Uh, I don't know. We'll go and find out what they do because that would drive the business initiative towards the digital transformation project. Um, so that's that. And then also it's like, ask them why. Why? Why? Okay, they need a project manager. Okay, why? Why do they need the project manager for? Because they want to deliver a project. Okay, yeah, but what is the project and what is that project driving? Is it a business initiative that they're looking to improve? And I think that's the gap that a lot of people have. They just go, right, we need to find a BA, a project manager, whatever it is. But understanding why the organization's doing it just by asking, okay, so why are you doing that? What's the business initiative from that? If you're speaking to a CIO, what is the key drivers for you? Okay, why are they key drivers? And it will link it back. And that's when you can really open up a Obviously got to understand the project lifecycle, but that really opens up a bigger opportunity when you understand why an organisation is trying to drive change.

Yeah, that's— so what you're saying there is like there's really simple questions, right, that you can ask people. So you're saying you can ask those questions externally and you can actually ask them internally.

Exactly. Yeah, from a coaching standpoint, that's what I was getting at. But yeah, of course externally, why are they doing it?

Yeah. And I guess, yeah, the more you do that, then, yeah, then talking about it, they understand, they can see the bigger picture more and they can connect the dots.

And I sound like a broken record because I'll go and ask any rookie or anyone who's done their career, okay, so what does the organization do? Um, and they go X, Y, Z, whatever it may be. And okay, so why are they doing this project? But now they're going to ask, because they know I'm going to ask that every single time, they'll come to me and go, right, I've got this job, this is what they do as an organization, this is what they're trying to achieve, okay, and this is where they, where this role sits within that and that gives us a really nice picture to go in and open that, open and speak to that customer more.

Wanted to ask you, like, just curious on how you're thinking about this again with all of your experience. We're talking about bringing people on into the Interact platform, training them up. That's going to continue to be part of your guys' plan, right? In terms of moving forward. Also want to be adding in senior expertise and experience within that, but a lot of the success stories internally have come from that rookie model, right, at Interact? Um, how do you, how do you feel and think about like the free, like having 360 recruiters doing the entirety of that process? You, you guys have a delivery function, right?

Yeah, we do.

Yeah. So how do you, like, just curious to get your take on that, how do you you think about that as you're thinking about continuing to grow the EMEA business unit? Like, just talk me through your thought process with that. Like, do you really make sure that when there's certain people in the organization and get to a certain point that we've got a really good process of leveraging the delivery team? Or I don't know. Yeah, like, just curious to see how you feel about that 360 piece.

Yeah, just going back to your original point, it was obviously you've spoken a lot around rookies and how to onboard them. I think where, where we are very good at as well is enhancing, um, experienced recruiters coming on. So people that come in and been 12, 24 months, uh, within an organization where they go, actually, be like, it took me 16 years to find out, okay, is this, is this, is this everything? Or what can— what's my ambition? What can I do? So I think what we— the same model and the same process applies whether it's a rookie or a bit more of an experienced recruiter. We'll go, right, what can we do to make that person better? And I think the Intrex process and solution what solutions we offer, um, will, will impact someone's career positively, whether it's a rookie or experienced person. Just to cover that. Um, but in terms of the, um, the second part, was it—

was it like how— I'm just curious, like, how you, how you think about it. Like, if I, if I talk about— if I just share some more context, like, I think there's, as you, as you'll be aware, there's a lot of— been so much conversation this year around leveraging technology, AI, like if anyone's trying to sell you a piece of tech, they're saying your guys should stop doing admin, right? Um, then, you know, there's a lot of, uh, noise and conversation, just more so that it's always been the case. You probably might know more with S3, but outsourcing and leveraging talent in the Philippines, in South America, in South Africa, having a delivery function, that's always been the thing, right? But I think, you know, challenges with what UK companies have to pay tax-wise. And like, there's just, there's just a lot of things going on where— just curious to hear your take on, like, when you think about the people in your organization, how can we really make sure that they're spending most of their time doing the things that they're great at or where they can have the biggest impact? And oftentimes that could be technology, it could be, well, when they get to this point, we've got this really world-class delivery function that massively helps, you've got this contractor care team that massively helps. So curious to hear your take on like how you're thinking about that in terms of almost operationally, because that is a big part of also building a great business and what you can— how you can help someone go from good to great is actually being— may be part of a platform that can take that versus maybe right now I'm— I've been stuck at 10K weekly GP for the last 12, 24 months, but maybe part of that is I'm doing all the contractor care calls. Do you know what I mean? Just curious on like how you, how you think about that, because you'll be thinking about that as you grow this this business.

Of course, yeah, I understand. So yeah, so we have a delivery team, um, but that is more for our C-suite approach. We have experienced, um, business developers that go to market to speak to, um, understand challenges from a, um, CIO level, um, understand what those pains are, and then bring that business in, and our delivery team will deliver into that. But going back to your point from a 360, uh, recruiter, yeah, it'll get to the point where they go, I haven't got enough time to to BD anymore. I haven't got enough time to monitor all my contractors. And so we look at, well, yes, technology will have its part in this and everyone's going to evolve in that. And we're adopting that also. But we've also got, we've got a really good contractor care unit or a contractor team that supports the top performers or top billers in terms of doing that, helping with their monitoring calls as well to see if there's any issues and then feeding back. But the most important part of that and where we've seen success is the communication. So the, the, the, the top performers are really open to that. And then we've got a support, um, a support team that give them, feed them information, leads, whatever it may be, and give them insight on a weekly basis that then they can use that information to go and enhance and do what they're really, really good at. So yes, we've got, we've got support functions in there. So it's not just delivery and finding CVs, it's more that Intrux world-class journey. How can we, um, have support our top performers to free their time up up, um, to do what they're really good at.

How did you have part of that team in the UK?

It's all— it's only— we have—

our finance team is in South Africa, but, um, but yeah, and then what, like, just out of interest, in terms of— you said top, like, what in terms of getting people to a certain point and then they can really utilize that? Is there what, a certain number, or—

Yeah, well, we say that, we say 20K a week. Um, we say 20K a week, but look, everyone's different. It's different strokes, different folks. Like, I've got, uh, um, one consultant, Pierre Bellardi, for example, who would be like, no, I'm like, I'm— that's my key part is to make sure I monitor the contractors. That's not needed. And but there might be somebody else go, actually, I'm really good at getting in front of CIOs and going, understanding their pain points and then pitching the solutions against that. So if that frees up time to do that, so We cut— there's not a one-size-fits-all in that, in that part of the business. Normally there is, so we can repeat it, but in that part it's, uh, it's different strokes for different folks.

Have you seen like a capacity though? If we're thinking like 360 contract recruiters, they're like a capacity, because then they've got to be world-class prioritization, everything. Have you said— I don't know, have you seen that? You'd like, if they've got, I don't know, 10 clients, they've got all— they've got up to 30 runners, it's just going to be hard. They're just going to be— they're going to miss opportunities. Is that— is there a capacity thing?

Again, it would depend on the individual, but yeah, that's the problem, is there's no silver bullet that goes, actually, it's capacity for runners. Like, like Ethan, for example, when he's at 70K a week, you'll be like, I've never seen that before. So, um, so there's, there's no capacity, but again, it comes back to open communication with myself, the manager, going, right, how's this working? How can we enhance you? But most important thing, how can we make you better every single year? And if that comes up in conversation, fine, that's a solution to fix. Let's fix that and then let's move on. But yeah, there's no real and there's no one-size-fits-all.

Fair. But in terms of— I know you mentioned about bringing on people with experience, and we spoke about rookies. It sounds like then from the get-go expectation is build their own pipeline, going out there winning clients, versus we've got this academy of rookies, let's plug them into Ethan's team, let's plug them into that team, they can do loads of split deals, start there. It sounds like it was the, the first way that you approach it. Yeah.

And I think the most important is like, right, here's, here's, here's this is what you're going to be building, this is your market, this is what you're going after, and then we will support you. And whether that's experience or not, if an experienced person comes in with 5 years experience and they want to enhance their career and perform better, more money, whatever it may be, we will make sure we've got a tailored plan to enhance that, to make them better. So no, we wouldn't just put people on split deals, and because that becomes quite a, what's the word, it gets to the point where it's a bit misconceiving in a sense that, oh yeah, that person's doing deals, wherever it may be. But no, I think let's, let's lay the foundations to be a successful 360 recruiter, um, and then the rest follows.

Should talk about the different— you've mentioned a few times different solutions. I think that's also— when I've, when I've met a good number of successful recruitment companies this year, a big part of what I've seen them do well is diversification. And that can also be in like the different service models and ways that they're working with their customers. And I feel like this also lends itself quite nicely into like taking these customers on a different journey, right? So we may start by getting one or two contractors in there, but then when we learn certain things, we can then talk to them about, you know, one of our different service lines that can help them with the things that we've learned. So, German is talking a bit about this because I think whenever I speak to contract recruitment businesses, there's always this element where they have different types of solutions. So I've got here— let me not forget this wrong— INX Solutions and then the POD model. Should talk about them, of course.

So, um, this— I've heard it time and time again, and people, um, other agencies contact me about, oh yeah, we do SOW. Is it, is it truly SOW or whatever it may be? Um, and this is where I I think in terms of Jamie's vision for the future, and as we evolve as a business, as we continue to grow, how can we become that organization that fixes all of their digital transformation problems and needs? And that becomes from different solutions. So I, in my opinion, T&M and time and materials or contract recruitment will always have its place. SOW will have its place. But then there's different product around our pod model, for example, is where they're full-time employees of the InterX Group that come in and deliver a piece of work. So we'll take a more like a traditional consultancy, we'll take that piece of work off them and deliver them with our FTEs. And I think we're excited to continue to grow that going into next year. And then our IRNext solution is a joint venture with a consultancy that goes in and again picks up chunks of work or pieces of work, um, and we go and deliver that. So we've been quite forward-thinking, um, in our approach to that, rather than just, um, teething around the edge of SOW, or, or we've been, um, we've been quite bold with that and going, right, this is what we're going to do, but all with the customer at heart. As in, how can a customer come to us and we fix all— if they need a piece of work, a pod piece of work that needs delivering, T&M, SOW, out-and-out consultancy, our joint venture, we are in a position where we can offer all these solutions, um, to fix customers' needs.

And then from a, from a, like, a recruiter perspective, like, how big of it is it? Like, is there a big knowledge gap going from time and materials to effectively communicating and selling the pod model? Like, is that, is that a big knowledge gap?

Is it not when you've been trained the way Jamie has got the group being trained. And what I mean by that is our rookies are not just looking for hunting for jobs or hunting for vacancies. What we're looking to do is understand what the customer's pain points are and then offering a solution towards that. So the most important part is understanding what the customer's needs are, what they're struggling with, and then us tailoring a— I say tailor, we've got our solutions, but then offering a solution that we know that can fix that.

That.

So, um, no, in terms of training, we haven't got everyone on it from day one going and selling POD or anything like that. Um, but the, the information that comes, as in there's a pain here with this customer, will then be passed on to a team or, or some senior people— myself, Jamie, Connor White, whatever it may be. Um, and then we would go and explain the solutions that we can offer to— but all about fixing that problem. Rather than hunting for vacancies or jobs.

Just because we've mentioned it a lot, I think, I think we should just talk about it for a sec, which is we've mentioned pain points a lot. So why don't we, we can get granular here because, because I do think if I, if I spend time with any contract recruiter that wants to go from good to great, for the most part I'd say that they end up talking about what we're talking about. Okay. Where they're potentially talking to their customers or prospects about different solutions because they've maybe done a better job of understanding their challenges, the issues, the problems. So like, what in terms of pain points— like, if we, if we start from the standpoint of time and materials, you said we're not just going out hunting for jobs— what, what would be some of the, the problems that I would typically hear, or we would typically remain hearing or focused on at that level. And then maybe we can bring it into like, what are going to be the problems and how they sound a bit different onto the other level. So I think that'll be the most helpful for people because we're saying problems a lot. Yeah, but what does that actually look like?

If we— the most important thing, if we qualify the customer rather than the job, as in rather than you're viewing— and when I say pain points, I'm talking about, okay, every organization will have its challenges. What are they? Um, and it'll be a case— it could be anything. It could be we've outsourced our our it department to X and we're not getting the service or it's costing too much. So you always come back down to the time, quality, or cost triangle. And then it's a case of going, okay, if it's outsourced or they want to nearshore because various reasons, that's when we'll go and offer that solution. So I think the most important part is it will always rely back to there's either they need to save time or they need to improve the quality of their service that they're giving their internal stakeholders, or there's a cost element attached to that, um, where they've gone to a big consultancy, um, and then we can, we can come in and offer a tailored solution to, to fix that, as in high quality people really quick but a more cost-effective way of doing things.

So really then, we're like, it's just, we're not just talking about the job basically, it's, it's some of the examples that you just said, and that might varyingly different depending on what market you're in, what industry you're in.

Exactly.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then from a— because again, I sit down, if I think about the conversations I've had with recruitment businesses that are growing their contract books, they're going to end up talking about these, having these different solutions. As you said, it's things that people ask you about. What's the main benefit to the company? Like, if I go from just doing typical times and materials to then having the different solutions, is it the profit margins on working in this way? Like, what are the— is it more, uh, like penetration of, uh, across like different clients? We can get way more runners in, but I don't know, like, what are the actual benefits then to— spoken about the customer, but what about for the recruitment business and getting this set up and doing it the right way?

Oh yeah, there's nothing worse than doing a deal on the last day of the month and then coming to the next period and you've got no pipeline. And I think that— and then you're panicking and you're scrapping around, it becomes quite reactive. Reactive. I think that using these solutions, that the pipeline for the next 3 to 6 months is a lot clearer, which makes in terms of more sustainable business, right, in terms of growth. And you can be making much more informed decisions by understanding what your customer is going to spend, where putting a bum on seat can become quite reactive, right? So I think that's important. But if you're sitting there with a customer and understanding what their resource plan is over the next 6 months, and then, okay, can you help us this, this, this, and this as the program, a project or program evolves. Um, we, yeah, we, we know that from a pipeline standpoint. We know, I can tell you, um, what our pipeline looks like over the next 3 to 6 months globally with Jamie, um, because we've got all that mapped out, right?

Yeah. So, okay, it's more sustainable, we can predict the future a bit more effectively.

Yeah. And it's that, that that, which has its pace, as I mentioned earlier, around that business development and new customers. But again, if you're clear on a customer and they trust you, you know, if I go back to that, well, at the top of the conversation, the job-to-placement ratio, you're in a position where you know you're more realistically gonna feel these jobs coming in because you know the customer, you know what the situation will be doing the programme, you have some sort of relationship, you already have contractors in there. So there's various benefits to pitching that and mapping it out rather than just, reactive every single month.

You know, you mentioned like there's always going to be a place for like time and materials, like the typical contract recruitment.

Yeah.

Do you think if you're building like a world-class contract recruitment business, that part of it has got to be what we're talking about here, having the different solutions, do you think? Or depends on—

it depends on market, right? I'm not an expert on every single market, and I think— but digital transformation, again, yeah, I think the it will, it will have its space, a contract, because there is always, there's always going to be a need. But it depends what you want to do with your business. If you're going to, if you want to scale, what would be the type of bit we want to be a business that we can help the global, some of the biggest customers in the world, help them with their digital transformation needs. I think we need to have various solutions rather than just one.

So really, it sounds like what has been behind having a really strong first year then is that world-class customer journey. That's been like fundamental, definitely. So like if we were to look at the, the stats across the, the team of like number of runners per client, I'm assuming that's gone up.

Great.

Yeah, by the end of the year that'll be in green. Nice. Um, the other part as well that it sounds like the Interex was already in good positioning, but maybe there's different things that you've been doubling down on and, and focusing and really improving and that tweaking is then that, uh, taking people on that journey that join the business and getting them to that 10K weekly GP, 20K weekly GP. So bringing on more people into the business, would that be entry level or with experience, and getting into a really great position is another part. Yeah, I feel like— and then I feel like they've been like the core aspects. And then we've got the solutions part.

Yeah, it's been like this from solutions point, uh, point of view. I think it has been key. And that customer world-class journey is really, really important. And showing how we can differentiate ourselves. But also, I think culturally, in terms of where the business has come on over the last 12 months since I joined, it had a really, really good culture. Um, but the— I, I— before I joined, um, and they mentioned InterX Group, they're like, oh, would you go and work? Why are you working there? For here, all these horror stories and stuff like that. And, um, when I joined the organization, I was like, it's, it's, it's not like that at all, kind of thing. So I'm glad I made my own judgment on that. But in terms of the culture, it's a case of where we've enhanced it, I think it's impacted our retention massively. Uh, we, we don't lose many people. We— I don't think we've lost maybe one, um, that have gone into another recruitment business now. Um, so we shifted that culture to a point of, yeah, do you know what, we're here to work hard, be ambitious, and whatever it may be, but it's a supportive environment to get everybody to where they want to be. And I think, I think that's what probably, away from the customer journey, is probably what I'm most proud of this year. Yeah.

So what, what are you— I'm sure you've been having these conversations like going into your second year of InterX. Again, there's, there's never normally things where you're like, we're going to absolutely rip this up and completely change it. What are the, the bits that you're really doubling down on, focusing on that is going to help you get to that milestone of 300K for this business unit with QGP? What are you going to really double down on?

Yeah, we've, I think we've set fantastic foundations in 2026 and so 2025 that will tee us up perfectly. And I think next year is all about execution. And to continue what we're doing. And there's 12 months more experience of every, every single person in the room. Um, um, the, the— we'll continue to tweak stuff as we grow. Um, but we have massive ambitions for the organization. So, but as it stands, I think it's, uh, execute over the next 12 months, having a full 12 months of all the stuff we've implemented. And then I'm confident just by executing what we've, um, what we've set out in 2025, it's going to see us get on to kick on to that next I love it.

Well, I think really respect anyone that's willing to take that leap of faith. Obviously in today's world, a lot of the time it can be around starting your own business, being an entrepreneur, but also actually you've taken a great leap of faith here of changing, you know, business that you've been in for a long time. Clearly had a great impact and like really cool just to hear like what that journey's been like. And now you've got like a whole nother year to build on it. And like you said, just hopefully just keep, like, reaping the rewards of all of the things that you're working on daily, weekly, um, and no doubt they're going to continue to see the success. So really appreciate you joining me.

Thank you very much.