Alex Stone - Recruiting in the States, 30% Fees and living in Brooklyn

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. I'm in another WeWork, getting less and less excited to come to these, if I'm honest. They all look the same. And, um, I'm joined today by Alex Stone, who is a country director for Orbis. And Alex is, um, heading up the American division for Orbis.

That's right.

Yeah, Alex, thank you for, uh, joining me, mate.

Pleasure.

Um, As I was saying to you, where I always like to start is how were— how did Alex Stone from Essex get into recruitment? Talk to me.

Uh, well, I'm gonna have to go back. So, um, I started off as a personal trainer.

Okay.

Then I changed, uh, I changed careers, got into events management in London.

Okay.

Uh, which is something I always want to get into.

What, events management?

Yeah, I wanted to get into events management.

What, PR, promoter?

Um, it wasn't promoting, it was more like location management. So he said, okay, films, we did you know, things like Dark Knight. We did PlayStation game launches.

Oh really?

Some really cool stuff. But, um, it doesn't pay money. It's kind of made for people that are already rich. And, uh, yeah, I, I, one of my friends, my old school friends, yeah, um, college friends, uh, was in recruitment, um, and that's Craig.

Okay.

He works for Tech 36.

Yeah.

I remember the point, I think it was on the train one day, and it was, it was something like he was going to Bali for a holiday and I was going to Cornwall or something like that. I wanted to have a piece of that. And then he got me an interview with, um, the company he worked at, who at the time was my, uh, my football manager. Really? Yeah, coincidentally. And, um, went in there and got the job and went from there.

Okay.

I didn't know anything about recruitment.

I was gonna say, what was your perception like?

I had no idea that really it had the reputation it did, or what you had to do about it. It literally went in completely blind, off the whim.

How do they sell it to you? Obviously they're your mates, so I can imagine they'd be a bit more honest than say that you're going to get 100K.

I mean, I, I came from a reasonably hard sales role, so I was negotiating contracts in my job before and used to, you know, working the money side of it.

Yeah.

Understanding emotions and yeah, how people work.

Um, not that's at all related to recruitment, but you've been in those types of situations and all that.

What they were selling, I could relate to. So yeah, um, it just kicked off, really. Yeah, they just said, yeah, come in, let's give it a crack.

And how long was it you there for, just to sort of set the, uh—

Yeah, so Craig was my friend, and there was, there was about 3 or 4 teams and individuals are running the teams.

Yeah.

And, um, Craig was working on a different scene to the team I joined, and Wayne was running the team that I joined.

Okay.

Who's, uh, one of the founders of Orbit, who you work for now.

So Craig and Wayne, just to let everyone know and understand that because you probably referred to them a couple of times, maybe. So they obviously founded Orbis, which is now obviously the business that you're part of and work for and also part-own as well. Yeah, that's it. Perfect. So then, so then how long did you work in that first recruitment job for?

Um, 2 and a half, 3 years.

2 and a half, 3 years. And then after that you then left Orbis where you're now, and it's been what, 5— do you say 5 and a half years?

Yeah, we've been going 5 and a half years. So yeah, we was going for 2 and a half years, um, and the company just got smaller and smaller at 36. Really? People just leaving Um, yeah, it was one of those typical recruitment companies where I joined. I joined, we had two massive accounts, two big financial services accounts. Yeah, that were just giving us so many roles that, I mean, a lot.

Oh, right.

Okay. So being against 5 or 6 other agencies, portal-driven recruitment, that, that style. Yeah. And it was, it was basically first come, first served, whoever got that candidate.

So you said financial services, was it in the market that you operate in now, or was it just—

we predominantly do financial services, but in the last 3 years, we've— I'd say we're more just covering the whole of digital outside.

So when you got into recruitment, you did UX? Did you start in that?

No, I didn't. I did all C#, recruit engineering.

Okay, so it's slightly different, obviously different to what you did now.

It was, it was, yeah. And then we first— when I've been doing UX recruitment for about 7 of the 8 and a half years I've been doing it. Oh wow, for a long time. When we first started to see UX roles come out, and it's the area I was— I took a particular shine to, really. And this is the old days of I don't know if you remember, but Morgan Stanley built the Matrix platform and all the other banks wanted to jump on it. UBS, RBS wanted to jump on.

What? I have no idea what that means.

Anyway, so leave that. So I went down the UX avenue and just pushed that and helped grow that out.

Yeah.

From day one. Really? And when we moved over here, it was UX grew into just digital. Yeah, yeah, all the web world and design. Okay, yeah.

So just quickly, I know you said that you don't have the best memory, so if you can't remember everything, that's fine. But I do always like to ask people, like, you can talk about it for the whole experience, but like, how were those first couple years for you in recruitment? Because I know you said literally went into it blind, you had no idea, like you're just working, working out as you went along. But like was it difficult? Like, did you find it tough and these things? Because I had a very difficult first year in recruitment that I openly say on here. But like, how were your sort of first year, 2 years in recruitment?

Uh, they were tough. Like I said, you know, there was a portal-driven experience, so it was just sitting there, sitting on a database. I think this is even pre-LinkedIn, so really you had to sit there and just churn through databases, going through, try and pinch other people's hotlists. Yeah, it was that, it was that style.

Was pretty cutthroat, really.

Um, which I guess made me, built me into the recruitment recruiter that I am today.

What, the opposite of that?

Just, well, just giving you thick skin, really. Yeah, yeah, I guess that is what a recruiter is, just, yeah, just to churn it out originally when you first start out. Yeah, really, to survive, because I can't— I don't know what the percentage is, but a lot of people quit in the first 12 months.

I mean, loads, like, what, like 1 in 4 people, I think I've heard. Yeah, in loads of places.

Yeah, so, um, it was, it was hard work, but I never really chase down the, the growth of it. It was just— I was just spoon-fed roles, portal-driven, had to get there, get around, go find it, meet the business, always out on, on meetings trying to grow out individual areas that I was, you know, given to specialize in before I got into UX side of it. And, um, so when did this—

when did— when did you— when was it less— so when you was building out the UX piece, was it less being spoon-fed stuff and that? Was that when things started to change for you?

Um, yeah, it was, it was, because I think I was one of the first within financial services anyway that really took on to us as a, as a, as a company, especially when we joined Orbis. Yeah, started to, um, realize that it wasn't that saturated of a market.

Yeah, um, compared to a huge advantage, which is—

yeah, it is. It was just an area that was like somewhat a niche space, um, and we managed to tap onto it pretty early on. Yeah, and the business backed it and we just, we went for it and we did, we did well of it. It helped. Yeah, it helped having that niche and using it as a around to get into other clients with that.

We only do that. That massively helps, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so then basically, what would— did you, did you always have the— I guess when you enter this world of recruitment, like, did you ever think about being at potentially owning part of your own recruitment business and stuff like that, you know what I mean? Or is it all just sort of quite evolved organically and sort of naturally quite happened because you've got these really good relationships with Craig and Wayne and all these things, you know what I mean? How Did you ever think about that sort of 2, 3 years in? Because it was 3 and a half years you was there. Yeah, so that was you at the previous company?

Yeah, 2 and a half, 3 years.

Sorry. Yeah, 2 and a half, 3 years. So like, yeah, like, what did you think about potentially having your own recruitment business and things like that? Or was it just—

No, I mean, I, I actually, when, when Orbis— sorry, when 33Six— I left 33Six and Wayne and Craig decided to set up their own company and asked me and one other to go and work for them. Um, yeah, we just, uh Bought the idea of it. Yeah, to be honest, those two were the, were the main people of that company, really. Um, yeah, and if we knew, we knew if they were leaving at that point. Actually, Craig had left, was working in Hong Kong for a couple of years, and Wayne, so I think it's Wayne said to Craig, let's, let's do our own thing, leave Hong Kong, um, and come back and start our own company up. And they poached me and Nick over, and we was over here for, um, you know, I've been in the US for a couple of years now, a year and a half.

Yeah.

And, um Orbis wasn't— isn't my company.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I am— I, I moved over to, to the US year and a half ago, and me, Wayne, and Craig decided to open up the business, which is, yeah, like I said, December '17.

Okay, cool. All right then, well, let's break down a bit before you got to that point, because like joining the business, obviously you've got really good relationships with these people, which massively helps, but yeah, just you being you for like— where did you start with? Just you for in like this small room just like pinging it out? Like what, what What was that like?

It was a classic startup. It was— I remember, you know, unboxing the computers, plugging them in.

Really?

First day, just like, you know, clapping our hands, being like, right, what do we— where do we start? Let's put our heads together. And I think Wayne brought on the first big client who we had a good relationship with, and we just grew out from there, did a good job with that one client, which is always the way to do business, I think. Do an exceptional job with one client.

Yeah, yeah.

That organically will grow into—

And did you continue down the UX route, or was that what everyone was doing? At that point, no. It was, you know, it was—

we were we were happy to just get our first role in, which I think was a C# role. And yeah, and then, you know, Craig was obviously got a lot of contacts, been working in the space for a long time. And yeah, we just opened it out from there. Yeah, I remember it was hard graft for the first, I mean, it's always hard graft, but for the first 12 months it was just picking up and running with it.

Really?

Yeah.

Was it what you expected?

Um, it was exciting.

That's what I mean.

Yeah, it was super exciting. We was, we was in there in like a shared office space, um, amongst, you know, a couple of other companies. Nothing like how, you know, we work.

Yeah. And, uh, it must have been, it must have been fun because like obviously it's nice to do it with people that obviously you know outside of the sort of the work world, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Is that all? That's all so added to it because you're all on this sort of journey together. And you're trying to build something, you'd like to think special, as to where it got to now. But that must have helped, surely, sort of to know each other like that.

Yeah, it was, it was. We're all mates, so it was— we all knew.

I'm sure there's also some trouble with that as well.

Uh, I don't remember there ever being any. Not really for me.

It's pretty sweet.

Not for me. I might have been sheltered from what was going on.

But what I was going to say, so, so then that year, that first year at Orbis, was you on the tools the whole time? Like, was you obviously—

yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's only been up until the last, I'd say, 2 years that I've taken a bit more of a step back off the tools.

Yeah.

Um, I still get involved now.

Yeah.

If there's something obvious which I need to jump on. But, um, yeah, it was, it was cut your teeth, grind.

Yeah.

Something comes across your desk, you've got to, you know, work all sorts of hours to fill it and just, just grow out the company. And then I think, um, in the first— I think it was in the first 6 months, we actually brought another chap over um, there was, there was another chap that would come over from 336, um, and then he left to go do a master's degree, and then he come back, and we start to grow, grow up on that. And did you—

when do you— when did you start then growing out? Did you have your own team then? Did you end up having your own team?

I didn't have my, my— I didn't start growing my team until, um, when was it? Probably the 2 and a half years in, really, I'd say. Maybe 2 years in.

So you were just really, really getting the client relationships locked in for yourself, building your network, candidates, clients, all that?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, we need to start getting someone under, underneath your belt when you're starting to pick up too many roles, or well, a lot of roles that you need some support on, which you can give guidance on. And everyone that was there from the beginning, we just, we had enough on that we could start getting people in to support us, which to be honest, that was pretty early on. That was within the first year, yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, but my team I think was in the second year. Really? Yeah.

So how, um, so how was you— what, what was— I know again this may sound really basic, but I think I was telling you before, like, one of the most common things people always ask me about is, and I find it really difficult, is when you're early on trying to build out a desk and these things, right? I know obviously you came from a previous company, um, and probably leveraged that after your restricted covenants or whatever, but like, what How did you approach building that business? Do you know what I mean? Was it just in terms of— was you— how did you approach getting more and more clients, getting more and more people known about Orbis and these things? Like, because that must have been tough at the beginning, right? No one would have known who Orbis was, right?

Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, we all had— other than me, Wayne and Craig and, uh, Nick— there's another chap, one of the ones that come over, was— is an ex-broker, had a lot of relationships in industry.

Okay.

Once you've been in the industry for a certain amount of time, you have a lot of relationships. Yeah, people typically want to work with the individual rather than the brand, of course, typically. Um, so that organically just grew us out within a reasonable short space of time.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and that's how we grew the company out. Um, and I say you should really grow any, any desk out.

Uh, but how did you approach it, mate?

Same thing. I mean, I've been in recruitment for a couple of years, and, um, after doing a good job with one client, they recommended me to another client, and, um getting around industry, reverse BD, started meeting up with candidates, which you flip to clients, just classic recruitment methods.

Yeah.

Never really went down the speccing route.

Really?

No, we never really had to. I know it's like a great tool, but we were working with a lot of big accounts that were feeding us a lot of roles. So that's not typically— I mean, if we had an absolute corker of a candidate and you knew it was an obvious expecting, then we did so. But it was never a BD sit down and send out, yeah, 60 CVs today. And yeah, what people do these days.

That's fair enough, mate. So okay, cool. So then, so then how did you— so obviously before, um, you joined Orbis, did you manage anyone before? No?

Yeah, actually, yeah, the chap that I said, um, went to do his master's, he joined and worked in my team. So I had one chap underneath me. Yeah, uh, and we helped grow out a desk of 36.

Really?

Previous company.

Okay, cool. So you had a bit of experience before you started?

I did, yeah, growing someone up.

Yeah, really? Because I guess, how did you find— how did you find that transition? Because like typically, again, a big challenge for, um, recruiters is they, they obviously might be really, really good billers and they're like, whoever, whoever their, their manager is or whatever, they're like, great, Alex, let's make 2 more Alexes or 3 more Alexes, right? That's the plan, right? So I guess, how did you find that as you were building out your team and not just worrying about your own billings, but then all of a sudden you're managing people and these things? How did you find that?

Yeah, I mean, it was kind of thrown on me, to be honest. Started to do well, and, you know, managers, I think typically when you start to do well from a billing sense, they think, okay, he's ready to start building his own team out.

Yeah.

And in hindsight, it's probably a bit premature. Really? Yeah, definitely. I mean, you You need to—

that's really common though, isn't it?

Yeah, it is, it is. You know, recruitment's success in recruitment is, I guess, how much money you put on the board. Yeah, but whether you're ready to start growing a team out is, um, different than that. Yeah, you need to use a map out what the best route is for you in recruitment, whether you want to go down that, that principal solo top biller route, or if you want to start growing your own team out. And, um, you'll have someone come join me and it naturally just went into growing him out and giving him roles, me going out and being kind of forced to go out and give him positions, uh, and so you'll see, yes, resource— he was just resourcing, to be honest.

Yeah, but no, it was— you was helping him out, bringing him success, which was bringing you success.

Yeah.

And these things. So then how many people did you grow your team to then?

Um, at 36 it was just the one. Um, and then we left. Yeah, yeah, we left. I think we all left on the same day.

And then when you started building a team at Orbis, like 2 years in or whatever? What did you— what, what is the team now like? How, how many people have you grown it to?

Well, I used to look after the digital team when I was in the UK, and we got up to, uh, 5 people in my team.

Oh really?

Yeah. And then I moved to the US, um, within the digital team. It was just, you know, everything that from, from UX to front-end engineering. Yeah, yeah.

And then as you— so just quickly before, um, we talk about the whole US piece, like when you had 5 in your teams, then would you— just to help me out— was you always billing at that point?

Yeah, I was a brilliant manager. Really? Yeah, which is always, you know, something— it's a, it's a challenge when you just start off trying to keep your numbers up and, uh, and get everyone else's numbers up when you're feeding the desk. And at the time, um, the business model was— and I had quite a few big accounts, so I was feeding, feeding the team.

Yeah.

Um, so the idea at that point was just there were resources, and now those guys are, you know, self-made 360 recruiters, bringing their own clients, but Um, for a good proportion of me managing that team was me just feeding the team.

Yeah. Um, so is that— yes.

And then growing them out to understand. Yeah, yeah. Flipping candidates and—

yeah. So was that a challenge for you maintaining your numbers then while she was managing at that point during that period?

Yeah, you always, you always take a dip, you know. If you start taking on the team, everything— I mean, you probably notice if you take one more hire on, you, you'll probably see a dip in that month if you were to look at, you know, like a graph.

But, um, So how did you get better at managing that then? Because I think there's some good stuff in there, mate, where a lot of people will be trying to go through that because it's not easy, is it? It's like, how did you get better at that? No doubt you probably wasn't too great at the beginning, but like, how did you get better at it and what things did you learn through that?

Well, you just— being organized is, is, is— I start to take my organization, my daily organization, um, a lot more seriously after I think the, the second hire. Yeah, because when you start getting, you know, 2, 3 people under your belt, then is a big difference.

Is that because it's so easy for them to take time from you, if you go, I mean, it's like, oh, Alex, can you help me with this? Alex, can you help me with that? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, of course it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, not just that, but you want to try and grow them as a— yeah, as well. It's like teaching them of bringing their own clients in and spotting a lead and actually getting out there and building relationships and then building their own personal brand rather than spoon-feeding. Yeah, because it breeds a, I think, a bad recruiter if they're just going to sit there and work on what I used to when it was a portal recruiter.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, you're not learning too much.

Portal recruiter, that's the first time I heard that.

Portal recruiter.

Oh, it sounds futuristic.

I mean, it's like an old school recruitment. You don't get that anymore.

So, so mate, let's talk a bit about that because I think there's some, some good stuff in there. So you got serious with managing your time. So what did you— what, where was you like losing time? Do you get— I mean, what did you, what did you get sort of better at in terms of managing your time? What did you change to really enable you to get hold of your time better as Alex, the billing manager?

Um, not just reacting to every time someone's got a question. Making sure you're setting time aside to sit down with people, um, is probably the key thing, really. Yeah, I mean, people have a day job, needs to be getting on with things, right? Otherwise it's just too disruptive. And so setting time aside with each person, giving them your undivided attention.

And when you do book in that time, as opposed to—

when you're looking at some of the people, and I'm not necessarily one for micromanaging, so jumping on top of people, making sure they're hitting their KPIs. We're not necessarily a hardcore KPI-driven company. We're not like a call sales.

You don't strike me as that, mate. No, no, definitely not.

So we just— it was just about splitting your day up, making sure you're you're organized on a daily basis. Yeah, hitting your basic KPIs from like CVs out.

Yeah, yeah. Was there anything else in that that you really started to change or implemented in your days as a billing manager that really helped you keep up with the numbers and not take as much as it did when you hired another person, these things? Is there anything else besides time management?

I mean, this is a relationship game, so, okay, making sure that you're, you're not just sitting there doing admin all day, not being distracted from replying to emails all day and out there growing the business and your own desk, making sure that you're making an effort to, that change of mindset, turning it from a chore, thinking, oh, I've got to go meet this person, to this is what I need to do to grow out this desk. That was a big change. I mean, that naturally is a big change.

What, the mindset?

Yeah, yes. You know, by the time, if you're a successful manager, you should be out half a day every day, or at least a good, good proportion of the day, and finding out what's going on in the market. So on top of keeping organized, making sure you're out there building relationships, finding out what's going on, keeping on top of trends, um, and is that because then it's going to help you, I guess, help you grow the team?

Because you doing that is going to enable you to grow the guys underneath you and stuff like that?

Yeah, absolutely, of course. Yeah, if you're out there meeting people and taking the guys along with you, yeah, to, you know, essentially pass that relationship over, um, it's going to push, force you to step up. I'm talking about grads, you know, guys that come in from the ground up that don't know how to spell recruitment.

How to spell recruitment.

So this is completely green people, not like—

Yeah, yeah, no, I get what you mean. I get what you mean, that's fair enough. But because I guess that can always be a challenge, isn't it? If like you win an account and you have a really good relationship, then you do pass it on to John who's now on your team and it's like 'Well, okay, well, where's Alex gone? Is he too good to speak to us now?' From the client perspective, you get what I mean?

That's very true. Yeah, that is true.

It's, um, so is that how you approach that then? I guess, how did you approach that?

You're always looking at, um, the person you're going to meet, um, and if you are, it's not going to be worth your time necessarily holding certain relationships. There are obviously, there's some relationships, yeah, um, especially when you're talking to real senior people that you need to keep hold of because you might have put a lot of time into them and had a few beers with people. Yeah, you can't be letting go on those relationships because that's going to slowly but surely fizzle out. But, um, getting people out there learning from you— you should always obviously learn from people that are more senior from you. I mean, I'm— everyone's constantly learning from, uh, working with people that are better than you or got more experience than you. So bringing them with you, even if you didn't have that— hand that relationship over, just to work— understand how you, um work.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Something we slowly start passing over.

Yeah, okay. And just out of interest, mate, obviously you don't have to like give me all your secrets, but it was— so basically, did, um, had a conversation. I think I referred to you, uh, referred him to you earlier, but a guy called James, one of the things that he learned at a business that he worked for a short time, the big, big, big billers talking $500K plus in this agency they worked for a short period of time one of the key things that you learned and noticed was they all have big accounts, at least one big account, right? And I thought that was really interesting. No one's actually sort of pointed that out before. And you said earlier obviously about the— you, you, you built some big accounts, right? And traditionally you've worked on accounts that fed you a lot of jobs and stuff. So I guess, how, how have you gone about— if I'm a recruiter listening right now and I'm like, wow, okay, so who firstly, who are the people in my market that could be big accounts and these things? But I, I, I guess like there's whole longer-term approach that you have to take to try and get these big accounts on board or really get to that point where you're getting a lot of business from them. Do you get what I mean? So I guess just from your experience, and if you do work with some big accounts— sounds like you do, is that fair? Yeah. So any advice on like how to navigate to start getting, getting more business from these people, start winning some big accounts or getting them involved, um, in your recruitment desk or your recruitment business?

Well, I mean, the only real way you're going to get into a big account, like a blue chip, is, um, by having a very good relationship with someone very senior that's willing to stick their neck out.

Okay.

Um, if you're gonna— you're not gonna get anywhere if you're gonna approach talent acquisition or HR.

Really?

They're gonna have to send you—

swerve them. Swerve HR people. No, I know what you mean.

If you're going in there cold, they're going to have their template to say they're not, you know, reviewing their PSL until next year. It's gonna be a classic. Classic response. So you have to really go in there with someone they want to hire.

Okay.

And the manager needs to be willing to say, this is who I want to hire, it's through so-and-so, X, Y, Z.

And so has that been traditionally how you've got in with these, these big accounts? And so you've built some really good relationships with people that, as you said, are willing to say to whoever internally, well, look, I actually really need this person. Like, I'd really appreciate if we could, I don't know, jump, get them to jump through certain hoops or whatever. That would really benefit me and my team because I've got this, this person I really need, or whatever. Has that typically been the route that you've gone down then?

Yeah, every time.

Really?

Every time. It has to be, otherwise, um, okay, you're just gonna get put in a pile, which is probably never going to be seen again.

So what, what's like, what's the, um, from your experience then, like, what's a good way or the best approach to find out what these people need? Obviously you're going to know your market, but like, are you keeping an eye on, okay, so such and such company have advertised for this, blah blah blah, and you know what I mean? I'm sure it's going to be candidates that are going to be sought after in smaller businesses anyway. You're going to know the skill sets that people really want. But like, how do you, like, how do you keep an eye on what these people really need that are going to be willing to— well, Alex has got this person, I must like put, stick my neck out for, do you know what I mean? How do you identify that?

Well, if you're not talking directly to the hiring manager who's hiring someone, then You're probably going to be speaking to a couple of people in their team who's— or, you know, you might call someone for reverse BD and just say, I've got this awesome role.

Yeah, yeah, out of it. What do you mean? Oh, as in like, so speak to senior—

speak to a candidate, senior candidate about potential. Someone in that team that you're targeting. You might have mapped out this, this particular client. This is if you don't know the ultimate decision maker.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, line up 2 or 3 people, uh, to speak to them about future roles, um, find out what's going on in their team. Yeah, what the issues are, why they're looking, and, um, find a rock star that you can then maybe speak into the, the, the—

it's got to be a rock star on it. Yeah, so that generally that's been how you've— so I guess if you, if you, if you're attacking something that— yeah, yeah, so if you know that, if you've mapped out there's this, there's a huge business which if I can get a piece of that pie, it's going to really benefit my recruitment business and recruitment desk. And then I guess after that, it's like rinse and repeat. You've got to really deliver. And again, it's coming back to providing a really good service and being good at what you do. But that's, that's some real practical advice that's helped you get into big accounts.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Okay, mate, interesting. So I guess let's talk a bit about, um, why did you move to America?

Um, I started doing a lot of business over there. Really?

Yeah.

So before I moved out there, 2 years leading up to it, I started to do quite a bit of business over there with some big, big names again.

Yeah.

Um, and some of those clients were ones that were working with in the UK that naturally said, can you hire for me in the US?

Because I was going to say, how did you approach it?

Did you—

so how long was that period before you went to America? Was— how much, like, yeah, how long was the period where you was doing business from the UK in America?

Probably about 2 years.

Really?

Yeah, leading up to it, about 2 years.

Was that a conscious decision?

Like, uh, it was, yeah, it was. In the back of my head, I always wanted to Um, I always loved America, really, from a kid. Yeah, so I always had this interest of doing business over there. Not that I necessarily started off thinking that I was going to move over there and set the— set the business up, but you like to make a trip over there from time to time. And yeah, yeah, that sort of routine. And then, um, and then it got to a point where we were doing so much business out there, it was a— it was a no-brainer, executive decision to open an office.

Just quickly then, again, thinking of people listening, I think we were saying obviously before that Obviously, um, recruiters, I'm sure it's come on their radar where, oh my God, you can move to America, there's bigger fees, you can earn a lot more money. The word recruitment and recruiter is perceived in a different way over there. All this, if I'm a, if I'm a UK recruit right now and I'm, I've recognized that the sector that I'm in and the businesses I work with do have American arms and there are opportunities, they do have business in America and these things Did that happen quite naturally, or how did you— I'm sure maybe happen naturally, but also how do you then proactively cultivate the opportunities to place people in America with the clients you had in the UK? How did you approach that?

Um, well, if you're working with a big brand and you know they've got offices, I mean, if you're working with a client, you should know where— yeah, yeah, sure, where they're, um, satellite offices are.

Yeah.

Uh, or the headquarters are.

Yeah, yeah.

And, uh, conversations just come up. I mean, if you've got a good relationship, you should have good relationships. Yeah, yeah. So you should understand what their issues are, where their teams are globally. If they say they're in New York, then you propose the idea of, okay, well, I can help. Or they come to you, you know, if you're doing a good job, which, you know, you should be, then—

I guess I know it sounds simple, but it's like, ask.

Absolutely ask. Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you know, a lot of the time they'll suggest to you, can you recruit for us in—

Is it always something you can do, Alex? Yeah. So how did you approach that though? Because I'm sure obviously at a period you hadn't done it before. Before? Did you say, look, I haven't done it before, but I can probably back myself to deliver and find people? Like, or did you just say, yeah, I can do that? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, well, if that— yeah, that you, you can— you assume that client knows you can deliver.

Yeah.

Um, and you've got a good enough relationship with you where he always turns to you to recruit for them. Then you— if he says he's hiring overseas and you say, yes, I can do it, you've always got to jump on it, even if you necessarily can't succeed, you've got to give it a go.

Yeah.

Um, 9 times out of 10, if you're a good recruiter, you're going to fill the role.

Yeah.

You don't necessarily have to be in that location to, to fill the role. There's a lot of satellite offices around the world or incubators.

Yeah.

Um, I mean, I did 2 years of business. I think the last, the final year of me working in the US when I was based in the UK, about 80% of the work I was doing was in the US.

Really?

Yeah. Which goes to show that you don't need to be based in that location.

Um, why is that, do you think? Like, why you don't need to be based in that? Like, obviously there's benefits of being in the location, but why do you think that? Because a lot of people would say that, wouldn't they? Be like, Alex, but how could I do that from the UK? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, so like, why do you, why do you think that that's easily— it is achievable? Because clearly you did it, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, there's lots of recruitment companies that are, um, doing European recruitment, not only work in Germany or Scandinavia, and it's the same principle. You don't need to be based there with, with technology, as long as you can work the hours because you might have to stay up an extra 5 hours to answer emails.

Do you do a lot of American hours then?

Sometimes, yeah, we have to make sure we're on conference calls or arranging things at certain hours, yeah. To be honest, recruitment's a lifestyle, isn't it? Most recruiters are answering emails at the weekends or just before they get into bed.

My missus wouldn't allow that, mate. That doesn't switch off, mate. So I guess a few things on that then, because look, again, thinking of the people listening, um, what, what, what were— firstly, what were some of the— again, it seems like it went well, but what were some of the challenges that you had to overcome or get better with when you first started doing more American business? Like, how do people receive Alex Stone from the UK calling me from UK but it's about jobs in America, whatever, do you know what I mean? Like, what were some of the challenges that I guess you got better at solving in these things as you're doing more and more American business? What are some of the things you came up with against early on?

Well, I mean, generally I find US recruitment a lot easier than London recruitment. Really? People are more receptive to replying to you, your emails, or your messages.

Or why is that? Um, because that isn't the first time I've heard that. No. Yeah. So why is that, do you think?

Um, just because I think recruitment looks at differently over there.

How's it looked?

In the UK, it's such a saturated market that these guys get hounded all day, every day. And in the UK, I don't think they necessarily look at it as a sales job or as a pest that's hounding me all the time. I think it's looked at as a necessary function. Really? They have different job titles over there. So I—

That's why you're called a country director.

Country director.

Yeah. No, that's interesting. So how did that help then? Did that mean that it enabled you to build relationships quicker, enabled you to, yeah, get influence people, whatever. I don't know, do you know what I mean? How did that help? How did that perception help? Do you know what I mean? How did that help you?

Um, just because, you know, you're, you're making a lot of traction over there with, with people that are answering to, to your calls, and that naturally progresses into, oh, by the way, I'm hiring. And yeah, that, that balloons out into more clients and more opportunity and Um, but because people are more open to recruitment over there, or speaking to recruiters, it's just, uh, it's, it's a different world, to be honest. Yeah, I'd go as far as—

it's a different world.

Yeah.

Okay, let's definitely dive into that when obviously to talk about when you move down and stuff. But I guess, so then in terms of like, just out of curiosity for me, like, was you like video and calling people and stuff, or was it all a lot predominantly done over the phone?

I did one video call.

Really?

It was all over the phone. Yeah, over the phone, over emails.

Yeah, also I've never obviously recruited in your market, but like, so obviously you, obviously you would have been good at understanding if someone's good or not, but was that— would that, that never become a challenge then, sort of really gauging if someone was good just over a phone call?

It obviously was a challenge, you know, to not look in the whites of someone's eyes. That's what I mean, it's always going to be difficult. Yeah, and that's why most businesses— I mean, that's why the UK businesses are flooding the US shores at the moment, but, um it's not absolutely necessary. Again, it goes back to all these recruitment companies that do European recruitment and solely European recruitment, and they're based here in the UK. Um, it, it still works.

Okay. Yeah. Okay, mate. So to wrap, to wrap that up, Alex, if I'm a, if I'm a UK recruiter right now, I've identified there is an opportunity to get some more American business. My clients will tell me, look, that definitely I need help in America, blah blah blah. What's like your go-to advice for people if they want to start building out more of an American, um, more of an American market in terms of get to that point where 8% of it so they could move over, whatever, do you know what I mean? So firstly, I guess you would— would you definitely recommend doing a good stint before you went over there as opposed to like going over there then starting?

Oh yeah, you have to. I think you're setting yourself up for, um, not every time, but I know a lot of people have moved over there to a cold company to set up cold, and they're struggling.

It's pretty tough.

So you, you need to have some kind of a foundation over there, some, some business already moving to, to, to grow upon.

Okay.

Um, but if you have an opportunity to do that, then my advice is jump at it. Really? Yeah, well, I did, so I'm gonna be a bit—

You jumped, mate?

Yeah.

Okay. And then, um, so you moved over there, so you've lived in— what, what, where do you live?

Brooklyn. Really? Yeah, we're based in Brooklyn. I think most of the guys are other than one is in Manhattan, but mostly in Brooklyn. Yeah, it's the cool part of town, really.

Yeah. And how many of you guys— how many people are in your team now in America?

There are 8 of us, um, 2 in the UK as well who are going to be moving over.

Okay, so yeah, so they're doing a bit similar to what you did then?

Yeah, well, they've only just started with us, so—

oh, okay, that makes sense. Okay, so I mean, firstly, mate, let's talk a bit about obviously boy from Essex now living in Brooklyn.

Work for Essex in Brooklyn.

What's that like? Oh, it's mad where recruitment can take you, can't it? It is. You never, you never think that.

No, no, you digging into my, my past makes you think, when I first started recruitment, I didn't even know about recruitment. It was just like a throwaway conversation which ended up in me living in Brooklyn.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's obviously awesome. It's a great career to get into. All the, all the negative reputation that recruitment has I don't quite get it because I think it's a great job.

Really? You actually think that?

It is. Yeah, it is. It gets you traveling the world, whether you live somewhere. You know, if you're doing overseas recruitment, you need to go and you're always out. You're not just sitting behind a desk all day meeting people. And it's a people's game. Yeah, Brooklyn's a great place.

So what have been some of the sort of key differences that you've had to get used to then living in Brooklyn, living in America?

Cost of living is a big one.

Really? Yeah, really. A lot more expensive.

A lot more expensive. Yeah, I'd go as far as saying double, if not triple, the, the what you're used to spending in the UK. But then salaries reflect that, what you earn reflects that. Hence why the fees are so big over there.

Um, why are they so big? Like, is that, is that generally true that the fees are bigger over there?

100%. Yeah, well, I mean, you, uh, people earn more money, so your salaries are higher. Salaries are higher, but not just that. I mean, you, you always the UK industry, your clients— a lot of clients try and push people down, whereas in the US they're pretty open to much higher percentages from 25 to 35%, which in the UK you never really hear of that too much.

Oh my God, you definitely don't.

No. So, and with that in itself answers how— why the fees are so big.

That's fair enough. No, because you know, it's just classic, isn't it? It's like you've got a recruiter down, down the pub going, yeah, America's great, blah blah blah. But it's like, is it really, mate? Or you just—

don't get me wrong, it's hard graft.

Yeah, it's just a tough graph.

It's not, it's not easy at all, especially if you're just setting up over there and thinking about moving over. But, um, I think if you've been doing recruitment for a while in the UK and you're thinking of moving over there, you're used to quite a lot of knockbacks in the UK. Um, so one or two deals over there is the equivalent of— yeah, a lot more in the UK.

So like, if I— so I mean, the whole living there and these things, like, if I'm, if I'm a UK recruit right now and a rep's in my ear going, look, there's this amazing opportunity in New York, blah blah blah, what should I be thinking about? Because you're, you're 18 months in now living there.

Yeah, yeah.

So what, what should I be thinking about that the rhetoric is not telling me about? Do you know what I mean?

Um, definitely try and get some kind of accommodation tied in for the first, for the initial month anyway. Well, if you've never spent much time in New York, you don't know where to live. You can't just go in there and— it's difficult with, um, finding a home. They typically go within 2 days, 2 or 3 days. It's that quick. Yeah, property is not on the market for long.

So that's— so basically, if you can, if, if you can get some sort of accommodation, sort of this let, one less thing to worry about.

Yeah. Or if not, then make sure you just set yourself a hotel, an Airbnb for the first month, and then, and then discover where you want to live and jump at any opportunity to, to move into a place that you like the look of.

Really?

And just explore the areas, because Manhattan in itself is huge, Brooklyn's huge. A lot of people— and consists of 5 boroughs, although most people either live in Queens or Brooklyn or Manhattan. Even Harlem.

So like, what would you— would you recommend people to actually, before they accept any sort of job there, and if they're actually trying to experience it at least, or like—

yeah, if you've never been before, you need to go out there and experience it. Yeah, try and understand.

How is it compared to London? Hot.

A lot hotter. Yeah, yeah, weather's completely different. Extremes. Winters are really cold.

Really? I've heard it smells.

No, no, no.

Someone told me that. I don't know, they said New York absolutely stinks.

Maybe on a lot of the subways they do. Yeah, but, um, no, I mean, that, that side of it, the cost of living, um, how busy is that?

Uh, you know what I mean? Because everyone, everyone has a perception of London is like chaos, blah blah blah, but again, New York is like another level, like everyone's just like zoom, no one, no one, no one looks at each other. It's just like that, that's what the typical perception of it, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I'd say Manhattan's, uh, very close to that, really, in a mental sense. Yeah, but Brooklyn's a lot more, um, you've got a lot more time, a lot more space, really green space, whereas Manhattan's obviously an island. And it's— some of the areas are just like Leicester Square, you know, it's just really flashing lights and people pushing each other past and yellow cabs beeping everywhere. They're not shy of a toot, really, beeping everywhere.

And yeah, okay, so been there 18 months. Yeah, I guess. How, what, how much of an impact has it had in terms of you living over there now and obviously continuing to build this business? Has it helped?

Um, sorry, what do you mean?

So obviously now you've moved, because obviously you built it before you went, 2 years, right? And now being over there, has it actually helped you grow it better? Have you— has it enabled you to meet more people, build more relationships? Like, has it, has it given you sort of a real positive to continue growing, growing the team over there, actually being over there?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, as I said, you need to have some kind of foundation to go over there upon. Um, and I've been doing it for about 2 years before, so because I'd done that, I had some people to start meeting with, and relationships are pretty good. I mean, leading up to 2 years, I come out every quarter, so I knew these people reasonably well who then introduced me to so-and-so, you know. And at that point, you can start, um, hiring managers, move to other companies, and they take you along with them. Yeah, you need to have something to move into. I think, I think that's pretty critical to being successful over there. Don't be wrong, there's some awesome recruiters out there. Yeah, I'm sure I could hit the ground running from day one and do some cold calls.

But being on the ground, how has that helped you? Do you know what I mean? Like, now being in America, in New York, like, has it helped you a lot?

Yeah, yeah, of course it has. Being able to get out there and get that face time. Yeah, that's that relationship side rather than just being a—

on the phone—

a number. Yeah, over the phone or just an email that they're replying to. That's how business is done. That's how I've always done business. That's how we've always done business. Yeah, it's a relationship-driven job. So yes, it's really important, okay, to get some time over there.

And then I think you said, so then for the last like 2, 2 and a bit years, did you say you have been a bit less involved in terms of like billings or whatever, like just a bit more hands-off? Is that right?

Uh, yeah, I have been, I have been, yeah, just helping to, um, everything. I mean, the team around us are all senior over there, so everyone's kind of running their own, their own desks, but Some of the accounts we've got are pretty big, so it's about growing now.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm over there from an operations standpoint, from a client relationship management standpoint. So I've been— I mean, don't get me wrong, I still get hands-on if there's a role I really want to jump on, if I know the right person for the role.

Yeah.

But yeah, that's—

How have you found that then? Has that been a sort of an interesting transition? Is that something that you wanted to do?

Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's kind of been moving towards that for a little while. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've definitely noticed year on year less and less hands-on. So, um, when I can, I get my hands involved.

But yeah, yeah, I guess what I'd love to sort of dive into a bit, mate, before we sort of start wrapping up and stuff, like obviously, how, how have you done billings-wise? Done all right?

Yeah, done all right.

Yeah, done all right.

Yeah.

What's been your best year?

Uh, well, last year was our first full year, um, in the US, like 12 months being based over there, because we moved over— I moved over in December '17. There's another chap who started just before me over there who we'd worked with before in— yeah, 336. Um, so yeah, 2018 was our first, first full year.

How'd you do?

Uh, good, good, about 600. Really?

Yeah, that's no joke, that, mate.

Well, it's the first year, mate.

That's a real— that's a real— that's legit. Yeah, mate, that's no joke, mate.

That's class.

That's amazing, right?

Yeah, we've done, we've done well actually. First year, we've, we've, we have done well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I guess part of that, like, anything do you think keys that sort of enable you to do that?

Um, I think, I think a lot of people want to think a lot, a lot of recruitment businesses I've, I hear about want to get as many clients as possible as quick as possible. And not focus on one core client. And something we started doing last year— I mean, last year we only had— and it's only till Christmas, there's 3 of us, 4 of us, um, and we've just focused on one real core client, a couple of the smaller ones, but— and to make sure we did a good job with that.

Yeah.

And now, you know, we're halfway through into the second year and there's quite a lot of people have left that client and take us along with them, and relationships are turning to a lot more.

And so, so what you're saying is that actually, as you were saying, a lot of people were very quick to be like, right, we need to get jobs on, we need to get clients through the door, blah blah blah, but can sometimes be a bit complacent with the relationships that they probably work really hard to get and have that same energy as to like at the beginning when they want it and they win it and not put a lot of energy into maintaining it, expanding it and growing it in terms of the key relationships they already have.

Yeah, they should focus on— my advice would be just focus on if it's a big account. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to feed her in our whole company. Yeah. Um, just do a good job with one client, and then when you're ready, take on a second client, do a really good job with that, and then just grow out rather than chasing yourself.

Yeah, yeah. And I guess from, from your perspective, mate, I'd be interested to hear some things around, like, so the people that have been around you, um, I guess obviously now from operation standpoint, and obviously a big part for you now is making sure that everyone is doing well and excelling and these things. Like, what are some of the sort of common things that you've seen that have sort of stopped people from taking it to the next level? Or yeah, that sort of 200, 300 mark or even less than that and break to the next level. Like, what are some of the common things that you've seen in your experience?

People getting complacent, people not having a specialty. I think that's critical.

Niche is key.

Yeah. Everyone needs to have their, you know, if a role comes across the company and it sits within your discipline, you should be confident you're going to fill that. And that's a good starting point to loads of things from BD to, uh, being successful biller. So I think that's, um, a pretty important side of being successful. And then on top of that, it's just again being organized, keeping on top of your day, um, making sure you're doing things, you know, the ABCs— follow-up, follow-ups and things in your diary. And which again falls underneath organization.

But, um, what does a typical, typical Alex day look like then? What's your, what's your structure, mate? It seems like you've got your organization down.

You say that, it's still difficult to organize every day.

What do you make, like, what's the tip, how's your typical day structured?

Get in the morning, reply to what I need to reply to, yeah, and just make sure I'm out there on my meetings.

Okay, so predominantly made up of meetings then?

A lot of the days I'm out of the office, yeah, I'd say about quarter to half a day I'm out meeting people, or days I'm not out on meetings it's just moving things along within clients. We've got quite, you know, quite a lot of people now, so— and I'm the account manager of a lot of clients.

Oh really?

Yeah.

So they deal with Alex Stone? That's who they deal with?

For a few clients, yeah.

Yeah.

Which is a full-time job in itself.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Um, yeah, and yeah, obviously there's, there's 8 of us now, so it's making, you know, checking in with guys from, from time to time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, we don't do any micromanaging. I say everyone's pretty—

you don't strike me as like you're going to be on my case about my call times.

No, we don't. It's too much time and effort, isn't it? If people need watching and managing like that, then they're even juniors.

Is that what— is that sort of being a conscious thing? Again, like, it seems like if I'm, if I'm working in your team right now, it's really like, obviously I know Alex can help me, but it's sort of— I'm, I'm approaching it that I'm building my own sort of business within Orbis and these things. Is that very much— is that what you're trying to encourage these people to do?

Yeah, I mean, they should be building their own little business within the business. They should be running their own desk and to grow out their reputation, um, without being, you know, spoke to every hour, seeing what they're doing.

Yeah.

And no one, no one wants to work in that environment. That's, in my eyes, that's an old school style of recruitment. So, uh, that's the model we have and it works.

Yeah, yeah, mate. What I'd be interested to get your thoughts on, because you see me as someone that's— you're just willing to jump straight into things and just crack on. Where does, um, mindset fit into all this for you? Like, is that something that you've got better at? Like, how— like, have you got better at dealing with the shit times? Like, have you got better— do you know what I mean? Where does mindset fit in with this sort of Alex journey, and how important is it to you as a recruiter and as you continue sort of developing your career?

Uh, you need to be persistent, and you can't let, you know, a no turn you— that break you down and, yeah, stop throwing a tantrum. Um, because that's constantly going to happen. If you have that resilience and that level of thick skin, which in recruitment you've got to be—

how do you cultivate that there?

How do you—

sorry, how did you cultivate that?

Um, just brush it off, park it, move on to the next one, and make sure you follow up with them again soon. Yeah, let them know that you're there to help. Um, if you— I mean, if you're confident that you are providing a better solution than what they already have, um, then you kind of convince yourself that's the way to get through it.

How do you get it into— how do you get more of that into your guys? Because no, that is a big thing, right? That resilience, that thick skin, it's hard, right? So I guess, how do you sort of try and cultivate that within your team? Because I'm sure, no doubt, sometimes they're grabbing Alex going, mate, I'm just— I'm getting rejected left, right, and center here. Like, I'm struggling, I'm not getting through to any clients, or I'm not being able to grow this account, or whatever. Like, what How do you try and cultivate that in your people?

Just tend to take a step back so not to get beaten from it.

Really?

Yeah, just do their ABCs. ABCs? Yeah, I mean, you know, if you do recruitment a little while, you know, you shouldn't be getting too upset from things. I mean, some people are emotional, then they're never really going to change. But once you've calmed down, you should be able to just follow up and just—

Perspective in that.

Just understand that, yeah. That you do get knockbacks, um, and there's plenty of business out there.

I think we were, um, I think we were speaking, um, earlier when you mentioned about obviously, obviously people, UK people moving over to America and struggling and finding it hard. I guess again, people, people listening to this who, um, might be over there and just find it hard. As I mentioned, the, um, guy that I live with, he's been very open about it, Tom, that he moved from, from London, moved from the UK to New York, and like, just, it was just absolute chaos. Like, just ate him up alive. Like, it just, it was horrible. He told me the experiences, like, it just, it literally just ate me alive. I guess anyone that might have found themselves in a bit of that predicament, obviously you're 18 months in now, so I guess, is there anything to, to share around that before we finish, in terms of anyone that you could— any advice for, for people to get over that period, or help with that period? Because no doubt it's not all roses over in Brooklyn, is it? It's going to be tough.

Of course it's not. No, it's not. And, um, I guess that comes back to my last point. You've just got to be persistent with this game. Yeah, you've got to be persistent and make sure you're out there, not just sitting behind an inbox and hoping something's going to come in.

What did you— I guess, so, um, I know you said that obviously you live with your partner over there. Like, obviously, how important is like having a social element out there? Because that must be tough as well, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, that is a massive part of it. If you're just going to lock yourself in your bedroom when you finish work, that is going to eat away at you when you know your family and friends are back home. So getting yourself involved in the American culture— yeah, go and play some American football. Yeah.

And I guess just, just to wrap that up, mate, this whole American piece, like, what, what are the main— obviously from your experience, you've touched on a few things, but I just want to make sure that everyone listening is sort of takes those key takeaways. But like, what are the main Ameri— what are the main differences from being a recruiter in America to being a recruiter in the UK? Like, what are the sort of main differences that you really noticed now being there, now doing it for a while?

Oh, there's loads, there's loads. It's different worlds. I mean, from, um, just from the mindset of, uh, what a recruiter is, okay, is is definitely different. Probably the main thing, really. Yeah, I mean, recruiters are taken as a serious profession over there, whereas over here it's definitely a sales, um, chore for a recruiter because they've probably got, you know, well, they more than likely have got multiple recruiters knocking on the door trying to work with them alongside the recruiters they are working with. If it's a big company, technical position, trying to fill their roles. And yeah, whereas over there it's, um, hiring managers are open to talking to you directly. They're open to you sending them a good profile. I've never spoke to you before. They're definitely more open to giving you a chance. Okay, um, I, I, I, I've found— before I went out there, someone said to me that, um, generally, um, the American culture is more willing to pay for a service than the UK.

And have you found that?

I found that, really. I've definitely found that. They give you a chance, but only one chance. If you mess it up, then they're probably not going to give you another chance, but they're more open to that initial chance, whereas here it's almost a closed door and you've got to be more creative. You've got to find your way around.

That's so true.

And that's why there's so many, um, successful recruiters in London because it's hard work. There's a lot of competition. Yeah, it's no saturated market in London. Yeah, of course. That's why the best recruiters in the world are from London.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but yeah, that alongside, you know, things like the contract market doesn't really exist over there. Like, the UK is a contract market. Visas— you need to learn about visas. Um, cost of living, relocating— people more willing to relocate over there than they are for you speak to someone from London and say, I've got a job for you in Germany, not— I mean, you're probably gonna—

yeah, there's a lot more hurdles to go through.

Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, dev centers, places like all recruitment companies now flooding over to Austin or to San Francisco or to Seattle or Nashville or Chicago, all these places that weren't really on the cards 5, 6 years ago.

Did you— do you recruit predominantly in— this is New York, is it Brooklyn, your base, did you say? So do you predominantly recruit in your state and only your state, or do you do stuff outside your state, and is that realistic and achievable?

A decent percentage of our work is in our state, but now we work outside a few other states because, again, going back to some clients want— can you hire for me? Yeah, in this state. And you don't want to go spreading yourself too thin, you want to specialize in your area. But, um, and you should as well. You want to make sure you're owning that, owning it, that geographic.

And I guess what I'm just— just quickly, mate, before, um, we finish, again, just some real practical advice. Like, the whole visa situation, what's the crack there? So like If I'm a UK recruiter, what, what do I need? Just like basics. What do I need to be able to consider a job in the American recruitment market?

A company that's going to sponsor you.

Oh, is that how it works? Yeah, so you've got to be sponsored.

Sponsored or marry an American.

Oh wow, get on Tinder, people. Change your location, open up your radius.

Yeah, they're the only two ways really, I think, you can get in. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, cool. All right, mate. Well, look, um, before I finish, I always like to ask people what, what, what you're excited about. So what's going on in, uh, Alex's world that you want to shout about, or what, what's going on in your world that you're excited about at the moment? Well, I mean, excited to go home to your dog, it sounded like.

Yeah, I got my little dog back home, Snoop.

Do you view America as home now? Obviously it's early on, but when you're— are you excited to get— like, do you know what I mean?

It's definitely home. The novelty of being in America, you know, you're the tail starts wagging when you get to JFK and it's, oh my God, this is home, I can't believe it.

Yeah, that must be mad because I get that with London, but I'm only like a year and a bit, right? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so I can imagine that.

I think it took about a year and a half for it to start being really home and it not really bothering.

You got like loads of American mates?

Uh, I think a lot of my— most of my mates were English actually. Yeah, they are. Well, I mean, I did things like going to join a couple of football teams.

Did you?

Yeah, or soccer teams and, um, yeah, things like meetups you can go and get involved in.

Yeah, that's fair.

Yeah.

So, um, but yeah, what, what are you excited about, mate? What's going on?

Uh, well, I mean, we're, we're massively ramping up. We're growing. We're, you know, we're hiring, um, like an internal recruiter soon and to help us ramp up. We're looking to open up an office probably in San Francisco or Texas next year.

Um, what, you're gonna end up moving over there, or are you happy with—

maybe, maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Go and set up a different space. It depends how business goes, obviously. But yeah, we're looking to, um, open up a couple of offices because we're doing a lot of business in other states now as well.

So that's— mate, it's exciting.

Yeah, there's a lot going on.

So look, last question, I ask it to everyone. You can answer it with a phrase, a sentence, a word, whatever comes to mind.

Okay.

Um, basically, if you could— if Alex could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd take on your advice, they'd listen What would you say?

Um, be persistent. Don't let things get you down. Yeah, a lot of people give up, throw the hat in after. At least for people that are just starting out, just, um, make sure you stick to your guns. Make sure you're always, you know, learning from the best in the room. Um, keep going. Yeah, just don't, don't get bummed about things because if you're going to start frying a patty and letting things get to you emotionally, then it probably isn't the right game for you. SARS is graft, it's hard graft. Everyone knows it in recruitment, knows it takes a lot and a lot of hours to get to the point where you need to be. But if you're asking the right questions and/or asking questions a lot, don't be afraid to go and nag, you know, top biller, and ask him how he's doing it. Yeah, that's definitely what's going to get you to the next level.

Nice, mate. Well, thanks for your time, mate. Cool, enjoyed that. Thanks a lot.