Allicia Birch: The power of a 12-week year and building concrete relationships

No one's going to do it for you. That's the harsh reality that I learned 5 years ago is that, you know, I got given a phone and a laptop and it was like sink or swim, go and build a market and see what you can do. Fair enough, I didn't make the business any money, but I think the difference for me was just my attitude. I wanted to do it. You know, I had a real hunger in me that was like, go and get it. Like, I set myself some really good goals and I think having a clear vision of your goals and what you want to do is so important. I set a goal to do £50K a quarter. That was minimum. Like, I had to do that. I did it. It's having something to work for and being like, right, well, I know what I need to do, so let's go get it.

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Alicia Birch from Anderson James Group. All you need to know about this story is for the first 3 years of Alicia's journey in recruitment, she built £20,000 in a year. She joined the Anderson James Group and back-to-back become their top performer, getting over £200 grand in the first year and over £300 grand in the second year. And we dug into exactly how that happened, what changed, and it was complete honesty. I absolutely love this conversation. I think you're going to absolutely love learning from Alicia. Enjoy the episode. Alicia, welcome to the podcast.

I'm so excited to be here.

Thank you so much for making the trip.

It was worth it. I love London.

Love it. No, honestly, thank you so much. Really looking forward to unpack this journey that you've been on.

Yeah, it's been wild.

Yes, it's been an interesting, an interesting one. So just to, to get straight into giving everyone listening just a bit of context, so you've been in recruitment for just over 5 years. Yeah, always in the same industry, which is residential. You've always done dual desk, but from what you shared with me, it has mainly been perm, but then there's might have been like 10% of your billings that have been contracts.

Yeah, yeah. Mainly.

So the last 2 and a bit years you've worked at AJ.

Yeah, unreal.

Yeah, with, yeah, with, uh, Big James Layton. Obviously he's been on, he's been on, uh, on the podcast. Um, and then before that you worked for 2 different brands, but I think where you've really kicked on has been the last 2, 2 and a half years with, with AJ, right?

Yeah.

And I think I've got here— this is a crazy thing that I'm, I'm looking forward to digging into this, right? So let's just get to it, right? So before you joined James and, and his business 'Your best year was 20 grand.' It's fucking so embarrassing. Yeah, no, it's fine, you can swear.

This is the thing, it's like I didn't make any money for 3 years, so I kind of like write that part of my career off like it never happened. Like, yeah, like a bad—

but I'm gonna make you relive parts of it unfortunately today. So, so sat down with James, he's like, 'Best year so far, Alicia, you know everyone, you're well networked.' And like, 'Yeah, 20 grand.' He couldn't get over it, but Obviously what you've then gone on to do is hold the top performer title in the last 2 years. Yeah, something to be super proud of, fending them off now. Yeah, first year at AJ you did £240 grand, second year £360. Yeah, and I think the split, like you said, right, pretty much 90% of that has been perms and then 10% has been, um, contract. So, and then now you are a business development director, you climb the ranks, and we're going to dive into all of that today. So absolutely buzzing. So where we always like to, to start is million-pound question. So would love to get your take on what does Alicia think are the common characteristics and traits that make up highly successful recruiting in today's market? Let's start there.

Um, for me, I think the key thing is authenticity. You've got to just be yourself. Like, you know, there's a, there's a real— for me, I know there's people out there that don't like me, and I know there's people out there that do like me, but I couldn't care less. Like, the ones that do like me, and the ones that don't, you don't speak to. And I think that a lot of people in just in recruitment in general are so bothered about everyone liking them, and that was me. Like, I remember when I came to James, um, 2 and a half years ago, and it— I used to like think the sun shined out of like loads of people that treated me badly when it came to the market. And I was like, this person's amazing. And James was like, no, they're not. Like, what, what have they done for you? And I was like, oh yeah, actually, to be fair. And it's just it's valuing yourself, having real honesty and authenticity in what you're doing. And don't ever change yourself for someone, because the reality is they're probably not going to like the version of you that you're trying to be, and they might not like the version of you that you are. But it's less exhausting being yourself and just being, you know, the person that you want to be in the market and spreading that right message that aligns to your values. So the moment that I stopped trying to make everyone like me and started being a bit more, you know, cutthroat throat as such, I did better. You know, it— that was kind of when my career rocketed, was when I stopped wasting time on people that didn't have time for me.

Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, just started valuing your time. So how— what was— what was Alicia doing to, to only, uh, build 20 grand a year? Like, because you was in it for a lot of work, because we said this, didn't we? Like, what was going on? Like, what— looking back now, what is it that you was— it might have been just what you just said, but what, what do you think you was doing that resulted in that type of performance?

I was enjoying the job too much in the sense of the social aspects of it, like not the job of recruitment but the job of building a market. I was out there all the time. It gave me a real good foundation to meet people, which is like, side note, key thing about the job, like relationships are everything. Um, but it just gave me 3 years of just networking, meeting people, understanding the market. Like, I knew everybody but I just didn't know how to make the money match. So I'd sit there and like, I could spring people— in the interview with James, I was like springing people off my head, like this person, this person. He was like, how have you built 20 grand? I was like, I don't really know, to be fair. Like, I just didn't— I didn't see the money, and I also didn't value money as much. I wasn't as bothered about it, whereas, you know, I wasn't around people that were doing that much anyway. The company as a whole was quite average. So as soon as you put— you take yourself out of that and plop yourself in an environment where everyone's really high performing and there's bit of people around you that are making loads of money, you're like, shit, I need to do what they're doing. And it just gave me the kick up the backside that I needed to just get that mentality. And at the time, I had a manager called Rick when I joined Anderson James, and I had this breakthrough. And we always talk about it because it was just iconic. And from then on, it was like an understanding that he was the one that was like, just be yourself, do what you know, but these are the things that you need to do to get there. And James and Rick have always been really, really supportive of you know, it might not be the right way to do it, but it's my way of doing it. And, you know, it's kind of worked. But the, the 20 grand thing, I can't even get over it now because I'm like, if I'd have joined James 3, 5 years ago, I'd have been probably a millionaire.

Well, um, what— but so like, you know, you said around not— I was meeting people, building my network, but in relationships, which is such an important part. So like, that's, that's amazing. But what was it that you think that you couldn't quite get right to like Yeah, then do deals. And like, what was you struggling with in terms of the matching? Why didn't that quite work?

I just, that just wasn't at the forefront of my mind. So like, say for example you've got a really good candidate, you've got a job immediately. Now in the position that I'm in now, if you gave me a job, I could give you 3 people off the top of my head. I'd be like, they're perfect, boom, in. Like, I could do it in 5 minutes. Whereas then, like, someone gave me a job and I'd be like, um, I knew hundreds of people. I was like, who is that person? I just couldn't do it. And I don't know why I couldn't do it. But I wasn't also encouraged to do it. I was very much left on my own, sink or swim. You know, I was out the office 4 days a week meeting people. My manager, who I love dearly now, he's great, was running his own desk and building his own stuff and I just didn't really have the TLC to get me there, which I think has made me realize massively that your environment is so important to your own success. Like, as much as everyone's like, you know, you wanna work for yourself and I don't, I'd be terrible, I'd sit in bed every day. I haven't got that like core motivation inside to run my own business but I also really appreciate the people around me that push me forward. So when I am feeling a bit like that, they're like, come on, Alicia, like, pull your shit together. Like, you know, you know how to do it. And then it's straight back to normal, lasts about a day. Whereas before it would have lasted weeks and I'd be in a slump of like, oh, don't know what I'm doing. So it is massively the people around you, but I just couldn't pin, I couldn't pin candidates and money together. I just couldn't do it. I don't know what it was. It was like a mental block.

Yeah, fair, okay. So you mentioned it, so let's just get on to the last 2 and a bit years then. So with you, you mentioned there with Rick, you said, right?

Yeah.

So the— let's talk about that breakthrough moment you just said, because you said something interesting in terms of like, yeah, the message was be yourself, love that. But you said, but do these 1, 2, 3 things. What were those things?

So when I actually interviewed, James and Rick were like, you know, it's a big risk, she's only billed 20 grand, like, we'd take it. It's a massive, like, wild card. But then I was like, the mentality, I'm gonna prove to everyone that I can do it. And then when I went in there, the thing with Anderson James is that they're massive on training, which I'd never had before. So I'd been left to it and then I'd come here and it was like, right, you've got someone listening in on your calls and I honestly, I remember his name is Barham and it's, I've got PTSD from it. He was like whispering in my ear with one of my clients. I'd never spoke to this person before, whispering in my ear telling me, I just, I could not, couldn't stop speaking.

Telling you like what to say?

Yeah, couldn't stop speaking. Didn't let the client speak. He was trying to tell me that he didn't have time for me. I just would not let him say it. And I was like, yeah, yeah, so, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. It was just horrendous. And I remember going into Rick and James crying like, I can't do it, you're trying to change me. And Rick was like, what are you crying for? We're not. Go back to what you know. And the key thing that James always told me is meeting everyone is, you know, that's the thing. But I'd always done that anyway. So that was really, really easy. Rick had always said, you know, you just need to understand your market. Like, mapping your market out is so important. If you ask me any question about my market, I could answer it like off the top of my head. I can actually— I can answer like which people are here, which people are there, how many managers they've got there, how many direct— I can do it all. But it's taken me 2 and a half years to get there, and that's kind of put me in the position that I'm in now. But the main thing Rick always told me is that it's so important to understand your market. Like, if you don't know your market, you're never going to make any money. You don't know where the money is. So he was always like, you know, we're not trying to change you, but we're going to give you all this information and pinpoint bits that you want to take out of it. So the key thing for me was planning that I took out of the training that we had. Um, listening, you know, listening more than you're speaking. Um, that's simple really, isn't it?

It's a lot harder to do.

Yeah, it is. And it, you know, you get excited, don't you? Like, in the— I still get excited to this day about the job, but I think when you start making money, as soon as someone says, yeah, yeah, we'll interview them, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, you just need to shut up and just take a step back and don't get excited about the little things. You know, it's, you then put yourself on a point where you're like, you've already forecasted it and spent the money in your head. So like, if I'd have done that when I first started, I'd be thinking, oh my God, I'm gonna buy a Bentley and a Birkin bag. Oh my God. And then the reality is, it's not like that. 'Cause then they drop out and you're like, oh shit. Shit, like a bit wasted. And you just, you can't manage your emotions very well. Like, Rick's always taught me manage my emotions. James has always taught me manage my— those, those are the key people that have shaped my career at AJ. I've got a new manager now called Marcus and he's great, but I think that a lot of the foundation of what I learned was from my time with Rick and James because they gave me the attention without micromanaging me, which was massive for me.

So I just want to focus on market mapping for a sec because that, that's clearly been really quite important.

Yeah, really important.

So for anyone listening then, one, like when you say understand your market, like what, what do you mean by that exactly?

So the way I do it, you know, it's a bit— might be a bit dated, let's say, but it's on an Excel spreadsheet. So every single company in my market I've got on an Excel spreadsheet. I've got every CEO, regional director, divisional director, manager— I've got everyone on there. So if I ever need— so I move it around as people move And it's quite a manual way of doing it. People might listen and think that's so pointless and really hard, but it's always worked for me. When companies go into administration, I highlight them red. Like, it's just— that's how my brain works. Um, but mapping your market out— so every company will have— so in my market in particular, it'll have like a CEO, a director, um, multiple divisional directors. I think it's usually 4 or 5. Underneath them, they'll have like managers. Underneath them, they'll have, you know, some mid-managers and stuff like that. So, in any given business, there's probably about 50, 60 people that you can go for. You know, if you're splitting it divisionally, it's completely different, but understanding who the person to speak to for each thing is so important because looking long-term, I mean, we've just started a blue-collar division across Northwest. Yorkshire and the Midlands. We've never really done it before, um, but the fact that we all know our markets really well on the team has made it really, really easy for people to come in and go, right, these are the people I need to speak to. Um, but actually understanding where— when you hear of a name that's moving, you automatically know where they've come from. So you can, you know, there's your leads, or there's a candidate who's looking, or immediate, you know, it depends what the situation is. But one person's name leads to so many different things. And I think, um, I mean, James has always told me about this, but there's one person knows 5 people. Yeah, on average, that'll be valuable to you. So you need to understand who they know. Um, and that's how I mapped my market out, basically. I had contacts in each company. I said, who do you know? They'd give me 5 names, give me the numbers. I'd ring them. Well, you know that person? Oh yeah, yeah. Straight away, walls down. Like, they're not hiding anything from you because you've found common ground. And so I map my market out by finding people's weaknesses. Oh, I know this person. Oh yeah, yeah, well, we did this, this together. So I think the main thing for me in mapping your market out is having something in common with someone, whether it be a hobby, whether it be a contact, um, whether it be someone— everyone wants something from you. If you're going to go into a phone call with someone and you're mapping your market out and understanding who works where, you need to build trust with that person. So when you ring them, first of all, you know, you're not going to ring them, go, hi, I'm Alicia, um, just a quick one, who works with you, uh, who's your boss? Like, they're going to be like, go away, like, why would I tell you that? It's like if someone rang me for my bank details, I wouldn't give it to them. So you've got to have that same mentality of like, what would, what would you do if someone rang you in that position, or someone was, you know, understanding, trying to understand your business? It's having a real, like, reality check of like, right, okay, well, what do I need to give that person? So I'll ring them and be like, hey Paul, let's say for example, I was speaking to Barry, and Barry— and they're like, oh yeah, yeah, how is Barry? Yeah, he's great, great. I just wanted to get a bit of an understanding of your business, blah blah. And that's how I did it, was just being really relatable and having a laugh with them. Like, it's not that deep. I say it to everyone, I'm like, it's not that deep. It's having a conversation with a person. Like, we all go home, have our tea, put our jammies on, and go to bed. We're the same. That's reality.

Yeah, I love that. So I was going to ask you, like, okay, so if, if that— if maybe an old call that Alicia would do would sound like that, or someone listening right now, their call would— like, they know that the importance of getting information, understanding more about that business, but the only way that they feel like they can do it is by, yeah, creating that experience that you just described. But now then, what you're saying is, because you've done that upfront work of market mapping, or always committing to understanding where people are at, where they're going and you're asking good quality questions like, who else do you know? Or, um, yeah, what challenges do you have? Or, you know what, actually, no, this person that had that challenge, but now they're sort of doing this. So you're saying now the calls would sound more like, hey, Alicia, look, I've spoke to this person who said that they know you. Or like, is that basically what you lean into? It's just like basically using other people.

It's, it's 100% name dropping is the key. Um, and people think that you're being cheeky doing that But if you— so I speak to a lot of, you know, chief execs, directors, and I guarantee the person that I name drop them to isn't going to ring them and say, oh my God, Alicia rang me and said that she spoke to you. They don't— they're not going to do that. Just knowing that name is going to have power. So for me, like, I'll ring people, I'll ring someone, I'll have a conversation. Like, I've got some great relationships at like a top level, and I always name drop them and I tell them, I'm like, oh, I'm going to ring that person. Like, yeah, do you want his number? I'm like, yeah, well then, why not? Like, you know, you've got to just be be cheeky, and that's the best way to do it. Like, the worst thing someone's gonna do is say no. That's my— like, I'm fine with that. Like, hon, rejection is in my blood. Like, I— like, it doesn't bother me. So you've got to have a really thick skin. Like, one thing I think when people get into the industry is like, oh God, what if they say no or put the phone down to me? Like, trust me, after 5 years I've had enough phones down put on me. Longer, actually, dating. You know, when people don't want to go on a date with you, what do you do? Move on to the next.

Who cares?

Like, it's not— it's not a big deal. And that whole thing I'm saying, oh, it's not that deep. It isn't. Like, you know, if you ring them and have a bad call, they're not gonna go, oh my God, 2 years ago she rang me, it was terrible. They're not gonna say that. They're not even gonna remember. They're gonna be like, oh, that's a bit of shit, we'll see you later.

Like, yeah, I think we've all got stories like that. I've definitely got, um, I always remember it. Like, um, it ended up being one of my, um, best clients who I did like 5 deals with. But my first interaction, right, with this guy, it was so embarrassing. Like, um, I knew that it was a company that was like always hiring these things, and during like a BD sprint or whatever, called his mobile, didn't get through, left a voicemail, didn't do a good job of like writing a note of like that I did that, or I didn't have his number saved or whatever. So I got a call back and like I just couldn't for the life of me figure out who the fuck it was. It's like I've got a missed call.

Oh God, I know.

And I was like, who is—

who's this guy?

You know when you're on the phone, you're trying to give like stall.

Yeah.

And you're like, yeah. And then anyway, it was just terrible, terrible call. And after— afterwards when the call ended, I was like, oh my God, it was the guy that I've really— I've put on my dream client list because I know they're in my patch, they're hiring all the time. And I just made him feel like I can't even— I don't even know who I'm calling.

Do you know what the worst thing was? I had one of these the other day and it's someone that I know really, really well as well. He was like, but he was 'Hi, you're right.' I was like, 'Hi, how you are?' And he just— the whole thing was just really awkward. It must have been like 10 minutes after he's like joined the call, he goes, 'It's Rob.' And I was like, 'Oh God, yeah, hi Rob.' And I still couldn't picture who it was.

But like, yeah, I think we've all got those stories. And like, that happened, but then 3 months later became like I, I was his guy to do his deals, even though— so like, I, I get that we all have stories like that. So I understand what you're saying. Um, so basically advice there then is I don't think there's anything wrong with like having a spreadsheet, whether it's not old school. I think it's like, if, if you're listening right now, and a pen and paper, let's just— yeah, 100%. So like, if you're listening right now and like Alicia's saying, if you were to get asked who are the key players in your market, or like just some key bits, high-level stuff around your market, if you're not able to answer that, you're going to always struggle to, um, really hit the numbers that you want to. And, and just quickly also, like, I think Although, yeah, okay, Excel spreadsheet, but like, that's a really great visual to be able to— like, if you can just go into a document and just, and just like see things, you can't fucking see that on LinkedIn. Like, that's— that'd be really difficult to like see all in one place. You're seeing it all in one place. So I don't think that's old school too. I think it's just a smart thing to do. And if you're listening and you don't have anything like that, you just relied on LinkedIn, these things, it's different. I see a lot of value in that.

Shout me, I've got a template. Nice. But I think like one, one thing that just from that, like, spin-off of what you said, is like, if someone asks you a question about the market, knowledge is power. Like, credibility will get you further than anything in the world. You could not make any money, but no, point proven. I didn't make any money, but I knew everyone. How did I know everyone? I was just name-dropping. I was like, oh no, this person, this person. Knowing people is your biggest strength, and relationships will be— you can do any job. I could do any job in the world, and I know that. Just because I know, because I know how to build relationships. Like, that's all that all the job is. Like, it's not as complicated as people make out. It's easy and it's fun. You can go out, like, once you get to a level where you know everyone, you're out on your lunches and your golf days or whatever. I don't do golf days. I don't do those. I don't do football or anything like that. But that's when it gets fun.

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Yeah.

So what else— so we're speaking about market mapping, speaking about building relationships, knowing people, name-dropping, these things. Like, what, what else do you think that you did that year that was totally different to when Alicia was, was doing the numbers before? Like, what else did you you really lean into, become good at, in hindsight looking back?

I mean, I could do all of those wanky answers like manifestation. No, to be fair, it was just work ethic.

Really?

I was, you know, I did 5 hours on the phone every day. I would always want to be the hardest working person in the room. And I think that probably the first year I was proving a point to everybody. I was making a point of being like, you know, I do deserve to be here because everyone was so, so high performing and still is, um, that I wanted to be in that circle. I was like, I want to be in that circle where, like, you know, you're highly rated. And I think probably the one thing I didn't do right was doing it for myself. I was doing it for external validation, which I crave on a regular basis. I've got major issues with it. But, um, yeah, it was just work ethic, you know. You can be a busy fool. That's one thing that you don't want to be, but when you understand the job role and are mapping your market out, which I already did but I continue to do, you will be the busiest person in the room. Um, you know, you're always going to be— it's just building relationships with people so that they can give you the information that you need. So say for example you've got a candidate, you're on the phone to him for 10 to 15 minutes, you can find out where he's interviewed, who else he knows, 5 people he works with, who his boss— like, all these things are going to be key for you. But when you're just trying to pull as much of that information as possible, it's very easy to do 5 hours on the phone, 4 or 5 hours, 3 hours, whatever it may be. Um, now I can do an hour and a half on the phone a day and book 7 interviews. Get— that's what happens when you kind of do the hard work at the start. But it's that initial foundation of you've always just got to have a really, really good work ethic, and no one's going to do it for you. That's, that's the harsh reality that I learned 5 years ago, is that, you know, I got given a phone and a laptop and it was like sink or swim, go and build a market and see what you can do. Fair enough, I didn't make the business any money, but then I came here, got the right tools to build the house, and here we are living in a mansion. Like, it's nice, like, but I think the difference for me was just my attitude. I wanted to do it, you know. I had a real hunger in me that was like, go and get it. Like, you know, this is what your life could look like. This is what it looked like currently. I was driving, I remember it so clearly. I was driving, I had £36.74 in my bank account when I joined Anderson James. Like, that was it, that was my first day at £36.74. I was driving a Vauxhall Adam, red, absolutely battered. It was horrendous. It had like a checkered ceiling, and my partner always said he was like he's like, when you flip the car, when you crash, you can play chess. And it's always— it's just like, it's always stuck with me. Like, and that was just like— and I was so— how do you know? I was happy with that. For a— that would have been absolutely fine. But then I joined Anderson James and they were living. I was like, this is what I want to be a part of. Like, but that's what happens when you surround yourself with high-level people. Um, you are a product of the— you're an average of the 5 people around you, or whatever. That saying is, and I didn't believe it until I saw it. And then I was like, right, I need to get into this circle. And that's when, you know, little— it's little milestones. It's like you get your first commission, it's your first designer bag, it's your first— got your first nice car. And those little things keep you going. But you've con— I set myself some really good goals, um, and I think having a clear vision of your goals and what you want to do is so important. I set a goal to do 50k a quarter that was minimum. Like, I had to do that, and I did it. And it's like, you know, this, this year I've got to do 100K a quarter. I'm like, you know what I mean? It's like you just— your goals increase as you increase. But I think having clear goals is really important. I think also having a great work ethic is the most important thing. You've got to have something. It's, it's having something to work for. So you've always got to have a clear vision of what you, what you want and the work ethic comes from there. I mean, I've— mine comes from a bit of a different place, like, you know, but, you know, we've all got a story behind us and a reason for going to work and a reason for wanting to make money. And it's having that, a clear vision of that, and being like, right, well, I know what I need to do, so let's go and get it.

Yeah, I always like the saying, like, you can't be what you can't see. Yeah, you know, and I think that that's a really sort of cool part of this story. So just wanted to just focus on one bit of what you were just saying, because I think actually I— when I speak to a lot of, um, managers, owners, and you always hear this terminology like get leads, do you know what I mean? It's like, it's very classic. But what I really liked about what you said, and I think people early on can sometimes miss this, is like you can really have the blinkers on, right? You've got a job, you're working on it. I speak to Alicia, who sort of fits the sort of thing, and I'm just— I've got my blinkers and I'm like Could Alicia do this job? Um, ask her questions. Does she have the right skills, the right background? And that's all I'm focused on. Yeah, but obviously what you just said in terms of being on the phone, building relationships, doing these things, you literally just reeled off like 7 different things that you could get from that phone call, which isn't specific to just one job. Do you get what I mean?

100%.

So I think people listen to it like, what? So let's just get really grounded for a sec. Like, call it getting leads, whatever, but it's getting information. Information is power, right? As you said, and we're building markets, getting to know. Yeah, so So, so from your perspective, a candidate call, what are some of the things that you can get from that beyond can Alicia do this job? Because you just reeled off a lot. So what are always the typical things that you've got front of mind that's bigger than this one job?

If I'm honest, leads are BS. Okay, like that, like, what is a lead? Is a lead that they're moving? Is a lead that they, they've interviewed? Like, what is it? Like, you know, I think it's the getting to know is the lead.

Okay, getting to know.

Yeah, like the GTK. Um, but so they're getting to know someone, it's like, so what's the family life like? You know, what do they do outside of work? When they're ringing you, are they walking the dog? What dog have they got? Like, that's it. Those are important things because then is that the daughter's getting married or whatever? Like, and then you go, how was the wedding? When you're next— little things like that are key. So getting to know someone on that personal level is absolutely massive. Have they interviewed anywhere else? Yeah, it's important, but is what it is. Who do they work with? Do they actually enjoy their job? Where are they? Is there anyone there that, oh, is anyone looking that, have you heard anything? And these little key bits of information will give you leads if you've got the right tuning in your mind. And this is where I think people forget is the fact that, say for example, I spoke to someone the other day. I still forget things on the phone now.

I'm not like saying—

Yeah, you're not perfect.

I'm not the Gandhi of phone calls and getting to know people.

Like, but my process is I'll always ring them and then I'll always go and have a coffee with them or a drink or, you know, whatever you want. Like, I'll always do that because I then get a deeper level of understanding of who they are. Um, but that first initial conversation, you're just understanding, you know, what their current situation is like. Who are they around? Who do they report into? Do they like them? And they're automatically like, right, do you like your boss? Oh, you know, not really, he's a bit of a— then, then they drop his name. There's your building your market straight away. So they report into that person, you can add him to the pool of people that they— he works with. Um, yeah, family stuff's really, really important. You've got to understand what the life looks like outside of the day job anyway. Um, but it depends really, my conversations are different on client and candidate. So my client calls, I don't really talk about Like, I just talk about them. I get an understanding. I want to understand you. I want to understand your team. I want to understand what the business is like. Do you know the reputation of the company? Like, I'm always here to serve hot truths to clients. Like, I always say to people, I'm like, you know what people are saying about you, about in the market about you? And they go, oh God, no, what they're saying? Well, it's not very good. Like, you need to be there to give them that because you are the expert. You know more than anyone, you know what the market's saying because you spend 4 hours a day speaking to the market. So if you you hear about one business that isn't doing very well, you want to ring them and let them know, you know, how— is there anything that I can do to help? Like, automatically, well, you know what, actually we're really struggling with this. Okay, cool, there's a problem, I'm here to solve it. So that's on one side, that's that. And then on the other side, on the like candidate side, it is just getting to know them and getting a real understanding of like, do they actually enjoy the job? Is there anyone that they work with that they don't like? Have they had loads of people leaving? There's immediately, you know, you've 'Oh, there's jobs there because the people are leaving.' Like, it's a spin-off, but you— the key thing is getting to know them. And once you open those— that— once that wall of trust goes down, you know, they actually trust you, they've let you in, it's like a floodgate. They'll tell you anything. But the key thing is that you've actually got to really value those people. Like, think of them as your friends. I'm the same with, with them as I am on a night out. Like, I've got the same banter, you know. Just myself. And the thing is, caring about people is really, really important, but they know straight away if you care or not. They're like— it's like Jedi mind tricks. Like, they know if you don't care, and they know if you're just after the money.

It's a transaction.

Yeah, yeah. And that, that's where you'll, you'll fail every time. And that's where I probably failed 3 years ago, you know, was the fact I was like— I wasn't really— I wouldn't say I'm focused on the money, but it's like surface level.

It's like surface level.

Yeah, it was just like doing the job, like, but I think because I built some great relationships from it, it got me where I am now. But at the time, it was never a financial thing, so I actually got to know them on a real level. They were like— they were people to me. I didn't want to get— I didn't want anything from them. They didn't want anything from me.

Well, you weren't delivering anything to them, mate.

Oh my God, talk about salt in the wound.

It's fucking true.

I know, but that's what I mean. Like, you know, when you take that out of it you actually get real genuine connection.

Yeah.

Um, and that's probably what I would say to anyone that's starting out in, in recruitment in any market. You've got to be genuine. You've got to actually care about it. Like, we've— and you know, as a business, we've seen people come and go that you can tell they don't care straight away, and they don't make any money. Like, goes hand in hand. You've got to care. You've got to actually care about these people.

So what I wanted to just get your experience on Now then, is how did you keep your feet on the ground? Because surely like that was a completely different year for you. And I think it's very easy to sort of talk about what to do when things are tough and all that, but I think it's just as important to, yeah, like share how you made sure that, yeah, at least you didn't become like a dick basically. Like you went from like being not a big shot to maybe being feeling like— yeah, it's a fair question.

That's James, he gave me a few harsh reality checks. Okay, well, talk to him then.

So like, yeah, like What did you learn about yourself then from going from that to that? Because you would have earned a lot more money.

Yeah.

But how— yeah, did you stay grounded? You know, let's just keep it real.

No, I didn't. I was an absolute bellend.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah, facts. Like, do you know what? I'm not a malicious person and my heart's always in the right place, but I think it was when you realize how good you are or how, you know, how successful you can be, you start being like, well, you need to be that. Like, you start going around thinking— and you know what, that like James credit to him, and I'm so glad he did it. Me and James have had murders about stuff like this. Like, last year, um, that was the year before, sorry. It was very much James telling me, like, look, you know, remember where— remember who you are. That's not you. Um, and all it took was him to have those harsh conversations. But no, I didn't stay grounded at all.

So what does that look like? You were like just saying, like, what, you weren't very empathetic or understanding?

I was— I was a terrible person to work with, really. That's why I can't manage. Like, I've not got the patience and I expect everyone to do it the way that I do it. Reality is they're not. Like, no one's the same. And that's, that's probably where that had to sink in real quick. Um, but I went from, you know, I had a pretty good job, um, prior to working in recruitment. I was a supervisor of a restaurant and I earned really good money. I was like, football is everywhere, it was mega. Like, and that's how I learned to talk to people and have no judgment on where you come from, because I had the same conversation with them as I would with someone that's just coming for a bowl of chips and a glass of rosé. No judgment here, like, we all love it. So I think that when I started making good money again, um, but it was probably 4 times the amount of money that I'd made doing that other job, I was like, oh my God, I'm Beyoncé. Like, I just all of a sudden got in my head and thought I was this person that I wasn't. Um, I'd say probably the past 8 months have been really, really shaping for me, um, on a personal level. Because what I realized was money doesn't make you happy.

Really?

Yeah, massively. Like, I was earning the most money, I realized I had no friends, I had no one. Like, I had no genuine— like, I had my partner, but I had no genuine relationships. Like, but I had this money that I wanted to enjoy, but I didn't have anyone to enjoy it with. And I think that was like a really big realization for me that like, don't get me wrong, like I'm only 24 now, I'm 25 in a month. Shout out to me.

Um, big 2-5. Yeah, like you're no like life expert here, but you're just being real, you're just being honest in terms of the things that you've had to learn about yourself.

I was really lonely, and I think that working in a sales job when you are young is great because you can earn great money, great foundation, buy yourself a house, buy yourself a nice car, whatever the hell you want to do. I was lonely and I was sad. I used to just like go home and cry, like, and that's like reality of it is the fact that, you know, everyone wants money, but when you've got it, you know, unless you've got yourself and you know yourself really well and you're really happy and you've got a good life, you're not going to enjoy it. So I was rich and miserable and, you know, didn't have real friends to enjoy it with. And, you know, I'd like my family, yeah, they were great, did some nice things, but you want your friends, don't you? You want to like— and I think I've worked really hard last year on building a really solid circle around me that have people actually support me, because a lot of the times it's jealousy, you know. I'm 24, like, earning really, really good money. Loads of my friends are in like, you know, just normal admin jobs, which I love. Like, I loved my admin job when I had it. Like, it's just chill. They don't want that. I love the high-pressure environment. Some people don't like, you know, but you go in like we'd go to America all the time, like, because my partner lives there. Like, we, you know, we'd do stuff like that, and I couldn't do it with anyone because they were like, oh no, I don't really have the money. But you realize that when those people see you've got money, they're like, oh, I want to go out for dinner, but I've got no money. Oh, it's fine, I'll pay. Why? Like, mug. Like, why would I do that? Unless you actually do it back, I'm not doing it. Like, and I think that was probably the reality, that I was really lonely and I was really sad. And then last year I worked really hard to like— and that was my best year last year, but I was having the most fun. I had the best year of my life last year.

Yeah, that's mega.

Yeah, it was just fun. Like, it was just like I enjoyed it and I did it right. But yeah, money does not make you happy. Facts. It's nice.

Yeah, no, yeah, no, I feel— no, I really appreciate you sharing that and you being honest because yeah, I think, let's be honest, like for me, for me personally, what I can speak about is money for me is, it is about options. Like, the main thing that I get excited about— so like, if I was to write I want to earn 100 grand and I was to look at that goal, that'd make me feel nothing.

Yeah.

So for me, what I've had to continually get better at and understand is, okay, so if I make 100 grand, what does that actually mean? Well, it means that, uh, me and Jess are going to be able to get the home and the life and like take steps towards the life they want to build. That, that means something. I want to be able to help my parents buy a place in Morocco or whatever, which is their dream. Like, you have to work that out, you know what I mean? So definitely been on, on that journey. But you are right in terms of, yeah, you might have the most amount of money that you have in your bank account, but if you just feel like you've got no connection with anyone on these things, that, that's fucking— that's a tough position to be in.

Yeah, massively. And I think it all stems back from having those clear goals. Like, my goal was financial, so when I had that money, I was like, what do I do with it now? Like, you know, I'd set this goal of having this financial goal, but I was like I don't really know what to do with it. Whereas last year my goal was to travel, right? And boy did I travel. Like, I had the best time. And it's like, I shared some amazing memories with people. And, you know, I think James is— and harping on about James— but James is always like, you know, it's nice having designer things, but that isn't like— that isn't the be-all and end-all. So the first year that I made money, I was head to toe in designer. I was living. I was like, look at me, Louis Vuitton. Like, I like a knob.

Like, that's not like you had something you were like trying to showcase.

Yeah, who was I doing it for? Like, that's what I was saying about last year, I did it for me, whereas the year before I was doing it for everyone else. And you know, the designer bags wear thin, literally, like the plastic we're spending. Like, I know I've got nothing to say because I've got one still, but like, it, it wears thin, you know. The joy of getting a designer bag, like, yeah, you have to get one. Like, that's a fact. Like, you like in your life you need to just get one just as a thing. But like, you know, getting them once a quarter because— or once a month because you've got good money isn't realistic, and it's also not a cool thing to do.

So let's talk about like, yeah, last year then, and we're talking about that. And like I said, I really appreciate you being, um, honest with us here. So what— so there's one thing, and I was just saying this to the previous guy because he's been on a similar journey, like there's one thing achieving that top biller status, but then I don't know what you feel like, but a lot of people that I've interviewed, they've sort of felt retaining it is like, if not harder, basically.

Yeah, it is.

So what did sort of— again, what, what I'd love to ask you is like, what did you have top of mind? Where, where did you sort of try and get better in, in the 1% in terms of going from 240 to 360? What did you do? Anything differently? What did you double down on?

So I— planning for me was key.

Okay.

Um, so I've started something last year which was called the 12 Week Year.

Okay.

It's life-changing.

Talk to us.

No credits to it, someone on TikTok showed it me. Um, it's basically where you break your year down into 12 weeks, so you focus on quarters instead of the year. Now it's great when you work in recruitment because 12 weeks flies by, but it's so important, you know, a lot can happen in 12 weeks. So you basically— how do I describe it? So you start off with your goals. What do you want to achieve for the year? For the, for the 12 weeks. Okay, you have a year goal, you know what your year goal is, but you break it down into a smaller one.

That's what I was going to say. Yeah, your goal, then reverse 12 weeks.

So in that 12 weeks, you break it up into, say, Jan, Feb, March. So what do you need to do? What 3 things do you need to do to achieve that goal?

Just 3?

3, 4, you can do. I'm— how many, many goals you've got, you can— mine's 3, so I always work in 3s. I don't know what it is with me, like a 1 in 3 ratio of them getting placed. Um, break it up into 3. So what do you need to do to do that 3 things? So what every daily— what daily tasks do you need to do to achieve that goal? So every month is different. So say for example, I'll use one of my things. So mine would be do 100 grand in a quarter. Okay, so what— then break it up into 3 goals. How many placements do I need to do to do that? So I think mine worked out it was like 12 placements to do that. So then that's done. So I need to do 12 placements. What do I need to do to do those 12 placements? Well, daily. So I need to send 9 CVs a week. I need to have 5 interviews a week. So I broke it down really, really nitty-gritty, and that was my KPIs. But the 12-week year is really important because you're not worrying about the year, you know. When I think one thing with newer recruiters is that they panic. Well, I've got loads of time. You haven't, trust me. Like, and it changes by the day. It's a roller coaster of emotions. But breaking it down into a 12-week year will just give you so much more manageable time because you're not worrying about what's happening for the rest of the year. You don't care if the market's taking a turn in July. You're focused on January, February, March.

Because if— and if you do those things, it plays out anyway.

Exactly. Um, and you can— it can be the same every, you know, every 12 weeks, but just managing that is really, really important. So say for example, January, February, March is a key time for me to meet clients and candidates. So I'll target myself on 10 meetings a week. I just need to hit that. That's like, so I want to meet X amount of people, I want to meet majority. So if your target is I want to meet half my market, it's going to be hard because the market's big. But how do you do that? Well, I need to meet this many people a week. Well, how are you going to meet that many people a week? I need to make this many phone calls. You know, some of them are going to drop out, so you need to make more than— it's just, it's having it in a really manageable— like, I need manageable things for me.

You know, that might— it really breaks it down. And then how do you hold yourself accountable? Every week are you reviewing?

So yeah, I've got a spreadsheet. Shock.

Yeah, that's fine.

That is basically, um, I keep track of everything that I'm doing.

Okay.

Um, and on— there is a template for this on a thing called Notion.

So yeah, I use Notion.

Yeah, Notion's amazing. Um, there is a 12-week year thing on Notion.

Oh really?

I can send you the templates, it's so good. Um, which basically will hold you really accountable because you track it every day. Have I done that shit? No. Like, I don't— to be honest, I wouldn't really— 2 years ago, I wouldn't let myself leave the office on a Friday if I hadn't done it. Now I'm a bit less lenient because I know how to that if something drops out or I don't do something, I'm like, back yourself.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just like, you've got the evidence, you've worked hard to get the evidence going. Now, Alicia, you know, I can do this.

But I wish I did 12-week year when I started recruitment. That was joy. It was— it's so good. Like, it just holds you really, really accountable, but it also keeps it quite manageable for you, you know. It's like 12 weeks, what, like, you know, when you actually realize what you can do in 12 weeks, it gives you biggest level of confidence. Like, you're like, oh my God, like, I've met 100 people, or I've done this, or I've done— like, you, you really back yourself even more. But that would be a really, really key thing that anyone that, like, wants to know about that, like, listen, holla. Like, it's amazing.

I love it. All right, so as we come to an end here then, I wanted to ask you, because I know it's something you're passionate about— we've spoken about organization, building relationships. So I'm just going to say this because— what— I, I don't know, you can tell me what you think, right?

Yeah, yeah.

But like, when, when I hear people on podcasts, um, and even just like content that I consume, right? And basically, so because Alicia is a woman that works in construction, yeah, like, for, from where I'm sitting, I feel like a lot of people are good at them putting you in like a box and being like, because you're a woman in construction, it's an eyelashes, they say. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, like, you, that mean, that must mean that you experience these certain things, right?

Yeah.

So my question isn't that is just like, women working in your market as a, as a female, what has that experience been like? Rather than me being like, oh, has it been challenging for you because you're a woman in construction? I mean, I don't think that's the right way to approach these things, but you share with— will you share with us what your experience has been?

That is so outdated. Like, it depends who you are. If you're a sap and you let people do it, then you're like, that's on you, that's not on anyone else. Like, at the end of the day, you know, yeah, it does happen, but you are in control of that. That. Like, you need to tell— like, if someone said to me, right, I was like, said something a bit direct, I'd be like, are you all right? Like, I'd make them feel bad about it. I'd embarrass them. You just got to school these people. Like, but I think it's because I back myself a little bit more where I'm just like, I'm not gonna let people walk up— if I want to flirt with someone, I'll flirt with them. Like, it's not, it's not the end of— like, you know, you have that banter, don't you, where it's like, I've got a few of my clients that like, we just have a laugh together. Like, it's dead friendly, dead funny, um, but it's always professional. Like, there's some people that cross out— like, one thing that I would never do is cross that professional, like, level. For me, like, I'm— that's like totally out of character. Like, it's just not my— not how I work. Some people do, some people don't. That's fine. Like, no judgment on anyone. Um, but for me, I'll always flip it back.

What do you mean?

Like, does your wife know you're saying that to me? Does your wife and kids know that you think that? Like, you know, like, you've just got him back. You've got him. But it is— it is tough, don't get me wrong. Like, there are a few people it's a lot more educated now, the industry in construction.

Like, so you have found it tough?

Yeah, at the start I did because I didn't back myself and I'd let people just like say the most horrendous things to me. Like, it— but looking now, it's not where it was. And I think as well, you are— how do I describe this now? You allow— if you'll allow it to happen, it'll happen, right? And it is a tough industry because it's very male-dominated, but I'm massive on women in construction. You know, I've placed a lot of females into the biz, into businesses, um, and encourage a lot of people that are female to get into the business. Like, and it is hard because I think people still have this preconception. It's not what it used to be. Even 5, 6 years ago it was bad. It's not that now. Like, people, there are people a lot, um, tougher on within businesses, so it isn't like that. Um, however, you know, you still get the odd person it's not like, who cares? Like, just embarrass them. Like, it's the best thing to do is feel, oh, shut up, like, you're weirdo, like, you're right. But that's the best way to do it. Whereas some people I know feel quite intimidated by it. Um, but you've got to set your stall out and, you know, you'd be like, don't speak to me like that.

So what's the advice for people then? Okay, so if I'm listening right now, if I'm listening right now, I'm female working the construction thing, I'm, yeah, like like, what, is there any advice that you have for me?

Like, you are in control of the level of banter. If you don't like it, just say you don't like it. I'm very, very vocal about how I feel about things, as you probably know. Like, I'm not afraid to tell people what I think. Used to be, now I'm not. When I was afraid of what people thought of me and tried to make everyone like me, if you put someone in their spot and they don't like it, you don't want to work with that person. That's that. They're not the type of people that you want to involve yourself with. With, you know, if there's people that are worried about getting into the industry or worried about what people will say, when they do say it, say, oh no, you're all right, see you later, put the fr— never speak to them again. That's fine. Like, you've embarrassed them, so they probably don't want to speak to you either. But you also don't want to associate with those types of people. They're not professional. You're not actually going to get anything out of them because they'll string you along on like a little, like, one of them, hoping that you're gonna like go and, you know, flirt with them, like, you're not, so you don't need them. Fuck them. Like, it doesn't matter. Um, but I think people, people do feel a level of pressure when they are new to the industry for everyone to like them and to go along with it and to be like, oh yeah, haha. Like, no, no, just like put them in their place.

That's taking a bit of time for you to like, yeah, I'm confident.

But I think that it's very easy when you get into do that, like, don't worry about what people think about you. That's all that's been— that seems to have been like this, like, constant thing.

It's easier said than done, that though.

Yeah, it is. But I think that having respect for yourself and knowing that you are a professional person, backing yourself in the sense of, you know, you're credible, you know what you're talking about— even if you don't, you do, you know, whatever. Like, I was— I probably don't know what I'm talking about half the time, but I say I do. But just backing yourself in the sense that your values aren't that. Like, you don't have to lower yourself to anyone else's standard. Like, you're there to do a job. You're not there to be, you know, a, like, dolly trolley or whatever. I don't know what word is, but like, you know, you're not there to be like an eye candy for someone. Like, you're professional. And at the moment that you set that stall out and do that, people have so much more respect for you.

Yeah, fair. Well, look, Absolutely love that conversation.

It's been great.

Uh, nothing short of authentic, which brings us back to the first point, which, look, that's, that's what I'm all about. That's, that's how I roll. I think, look, credit to you. Uh, I think that's like your story is what's so cool about our industry. I think like if you're someone that's willing to work hard, learn, look yourself in the mirror, then there's, there's no reason why you aren't able to achieve the, the life or the goals that, that you want, you know. So I think kudos to you to turning it around. Um, it obviously hasn't been easy. You've had to have some tough conversations, you've had to have people be honest with you, and again, that takes courage to take that on, you know. So, uh, massive thank you for coming on the pod. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.