Ally Esmaeili - A car crash first year to breaking the £300K billings mark.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Ali Ismaili. Nailed it. Ali Ismaili, who is, um, the one of the directors at Soap.

Yes.

Ali, thanks for joining me, mate.

No problem.

Thank you. Looking forward to this.

Absolutely.

Normally I'll start with how did you get into recruitment?

Yeah.

I'm gonna give you a bit of a curveball, mate. Soap.

Yes.

Where did that come from, mate? Is there a story? Yes, no?

Yes, no, a little bit. It was, um, it's, it's a bit about being heard. It's, it's about giving our brand a voice.

Okay.

And, you know, standing on top of a soapbox and being heard and— oh no, yeah, get the message out of this. So that's where it kind of originated from.

Really?

Yeah, we get all of our or clients.

It is like a mad name in it. Yeah, it's not just soap, it's like so much— I don't know, it's so much so. Yeah, the website, but like soap.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, um, we have a lot of, a lot of clients and candidates asking about it.

So it stands out though.

It does. And that's what you wanted. Um, you know, it's different. Um, there's a lot of funny, um, sort of jokes come up about it, about, you know, trying to clean up the recruitment industry.

Yeah, that's what I was just thinking about. But like, if you look at sort of, um your, uh, company website, the colors and all that. Like, it does— it's like, it's in your face. Yeah, different.

Well, we wanted to be different. You've got to differentiate yourself with so many recruitment agencies starting on a yearly basis. You've got to do something different. So we were branding our message, you know, everything we tried to do has to be a little bit different.

Yeah, that obviously, like, that must have took a bit of getting used to, though. Like, hi, my name is Ali, I'm calling from— so, so people are like, hey, do you work for a cleaning company? Like, what's going on?

We get a lot of emails as well from, um soap distributors across the world. Yeah, they can help us, uh, distribute our products.

So yeah, oh, they can help you distribute your products? Brilliant. All right, cool. Just wanted to get out there, mate, straight away because I was thinking about it. So look, as you know where I always like to start, mate, um, obviously we're just looking through your LinkedIn to refresh my memory, but how did, um, Ali enter the world of recruitment, mate? Talk to me.

Um, so I was brought into the world of recruitment by A friend, an ex-colleague of mine who's now one of my business partners, he, um, yeah, he approached me. At that time I had no experience in recruitment, always been in sales, really. But yeah, he was, um, he got into recruitment himself, um, had some success, and then was growing out his team. We actually bumped into each other by chance after a wedding, at a friend's wedding.

Oh wow.

Yeah, yeah, really by chance. And I nearly didn't go to that wedding because I had actually been really ill, um, a few weeks before that, uh, like seriously ill. And I wasn't going to attend, but I did. And fate has it bumped into him. Yeah, bumped into, um, Ollie. And, uh, yeah, had a conversation about what he was doing and, you know, what, what he was trying to do— grow a team, build a team where he was. Um, and at that point I'd had quite a few friends and people that I knew in the industry say that it was, you know, I could be suited to it. Never really actually committed to exploring the opportunity, but yeah, spoke to him about it and then had some meetings and ended up joining his team.

And yeah, I guess it's always a good thing to join somewhere where like you've got someone that you've got a decent relationship with, you know what I mean?

Yeah, someone you trust, someone you've worked before, someone that you can, you know, you've got good chemistry with. And that was really, really important. That was probably the the biggest reason why I actually joined.

Okay.

And got into recruitment.

Up until that point then, because like obviously your career, as you said, always did sales.

Yeah.

Obviously working from in the banks to estate agency to account manager.

Yeah.

Um, had you not dealt with recruiters during that period then?

Um, so my first experience with recruiters was when I joined Coca-Cola. I was, um, I was reached out to by their talent acquisition team. So I'd had some experience, but they, they didn't That was the first time I'd ever been approached by a recruiter, and a couple of— maybe, um, before that I'd also had some recruiters put me into some jobs, but I never really— I never understood their job fully. Um, but, um, yeah, I had, um, I had some contact there when I, when I joined Coca-Cola. And, um, yeah, but it wasn't something that I ever thought I would do. It wasn't that I ever thought that it could be a career for me. Um, it was never something that I thought I could pursue and make a career out of. So what—

just, just to finalize that, what, what was your perception of recruitment then before you joined Ollie and his him?

I just thought— I thought recruitment was people sitting in cubicles, you know, ringing out, calling, uh, cold calling, trying to, you know, get people to, to move their, their current job to a new job. It just didn't— it didn't really appeal to me. But I guess I never ever dug deeper than the surface level.

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. So then joined Ollie.

Yes.

And that was business called Start and Make. Yeah.

Yep.

And you was there for just under 3 years, and then you left there, um, and then has obviously been part of the Soap journey from day one. Yeah, and being involved with that.

Yeah.

So, so how long you been in recruitment now?

Um, nearly 5 years.

5 years?

Yeah, yeah.

Is that a career for you now?

Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't— it's, it's so, it's so strange because I couldn't imagine doing anything else. Um, for me, you know, it really fits me personally. Yeah. You know, the, the goals that I want to achieve, the type of personality I have, I think a lot of the traits that even some I didn't probably know I had within me, I think they've really developed since I've come into recruitment. So as an individual, I've grown so much in the last 4 or 5 years, and I've always been quite confident in myself, but I didn't really know what I was capable of doing until I was put into the position where I had to really, you know, build out something for myself and show that entrepreneurship. So I think that's a big thing in recruitment. They throw out a word you know, entrepreneurial so much. But then it's very cliché, but it's so true. Yeah, you know.

No, yeah, yeah. I think just, just something that's, um, popped into my head, mate, which I think is interesting in your journey. Like, how old, how old was you when you got into recruitment and joined Ollie?

Um, I was probably, yeah, very late 20s, early 30s. So probably—

that's interesting.

Yeah.

So if you know what I mean, because like, I just thought that just because like, if you think typical recruitment owner or manager, right, I'm hiring for my team, who do you initially think of? It's like young, hungry, you know what I mean?

So totally agree.

How was that? Because obviously you had done quite— you worked in different industries, blah blah blah.

I think that— and this is interesting point because I think that, yeah, typically historically those are the kind of individuals you look for, right? People who are willing to put in the hard yards, put in the hours. Um, I didn't come from a recruitment background at all. I'd come from a sales background, but, um, I feel that maybe that's why I've had, um, some of the success I've achieved so far is because I didn't come from a recruitment background. I was a more mature individual.

Yeah.

Um, and I think that allowed me to understand the job better. I think it allowed me to, um, be able to perform the functions. Um, I think, you know, when you come in and you're very green, you're young, it can be a daunting prospect. And also you have to be able to experience highs and lows of recruitment. And when you've had you know, other sales roles where you've dealt with, um, you know, the ups and downs, I think that really helps you going into this type of job because there is ultimately going to be ups and downs, um, and it's about how you deal with them. And I think, you know, being a bit more mature and being the age that I was maybe was one of the big reasons why maybe now I'm seeing a lot more success.

Yeah, no, it's really interesting because I think if I think when I started it, like, obviously what you had under your belt is, is, which isn't maybe a typical um, someone that's, um, just joining the industry typically may not have his, like, life experience, right? Even though still very much young, late 20s, early 30s.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, it can be quite daunting early on. If I think when I started, like, speaking to people about their careers who were like 35— yeah, you know, that age is a thing— but speaking to people that are a lot more older than you and stuff like that. So I guess the life experience you had on your belt absolutely definitely equipped you with more tools to relate, or whatever. Yeah, I mean, that's very interesting.

Yeah, 100%.

Um, okay, so what I always like to, to speak to people about is their first year in recruitment. So as you just said, you feel like you— things have really started to come to fruition now.

Yep.

Which obviously, um, I know about because you shared with me. Like, let's just, just cast back to what it was like the first year in recruitment. As we were just talking about, you've got this life experience, you've got different experiences, it helped you deal with the highs and lows. But how was those first 12 months?

But really, for me I'd probably say a car crash, really.

Really?

Didn't— yeah, it wasn't, um, it wasn't how I wanted it. It wasn't how I expected it to go. Maybe I was being a bit naive. Maybe I thought it would, um, I would, you know, sort of get into it a lot better than I did. But it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, plain sailing for me at all. And I think, again, that's probably helped me, you know, to get to where I am now. But, um, you know, I had good training, I had good mentors. I still do now. But I think my first year, I think a lot of it's interesting because I saw you mentioned something about, you know, the tenure of the average recruitment consultant being 13 months, right? So I think if you get to the point where, you know, after the first year it's not happening for you, a lot of people might just think to throw in the towel there.

Yeah, sometimes less.

Yeah, probably sometimes less. And to be honest, I probably could have— I probably could have done that myself. But for me, it was a kind of a sink or swim situation. You know, I had a young family. I made a commitment to myself that it was— if I was going to leave the role that I was in before I joined recruitment, which was pretty comfortable for me, um, then I had to make it work. Yeah. So I saw the long game, but really my first year was, you know, what did you do?

Great.

I can't remember the exact number. Um, I can't remember the exact number, but I don't think it was any more than 50 grand.

Really?

Yeah, really. It was—

was it, was it more or less than 24K?

You know about this? Was it—

you sure about that? Yeah, it was more. It was definitely, definitely less 50k. Yeah, it was definitely less than 50. Nothing, but definitely more than nothing. But no, um, okay, no, it's just— so look, let's just talk a bit about that for a sec.

Yeah, yeah, a bit.

A big, a big reason why I started this was because of my experiences in the first year. Yeah, so as you said, it was a car crash, didn't build a lot. You said that you could have very much quit, been one of— so yeah, so yeah, firstly, why do you not quit?

Again, like I said, it was 100% sink or swim for me. I'd made the decision, like I said, having a young family, and I wanted more. I was in, I was in quite a comfortable job which, um, you know, paid well, but it wasn't something that I could ever see myself, um, getting to where I wanted to be with. And I think the thing with recruitment is, and again it's so cliché but it's so true, is you really can fast-track your career. Yeah. And I was um, I bought into that dream, I bought into that opportunity, and I thought I had to commit. And giving something a year is just not long enough. And I had to, you know, I had to make that decision that if I'm going to commit to it, I need to give it enough time and for me to learn, because I came into it completely blind. Yeah, you know, not, you know, no experience whatsoever, just purely sales. Um, so for me, there was no, there was no other option, um, for them, for me to continue. So that, that was really the driving force for me, was that if I, if I didn't do it I was one year away, or one year further away, from being where I wanted to be.

Okay, I like that. Did you always, did you always typically have that mindset?

Do you know what, let's come back to what I said earlier as well. Like, it— I, I, I did, but I didn't know how much I did until I got into recruitment. And because a lot of the onus will fall on you, you know, it's, it's all down to how much you want it. You can carve out whatever you want for yourself. It is, it's the the amount of work you put in, you know, the amount of effort, it will show in what you bill and what you can achieve. And to fast-track your career to where I am today, you know, compared to where I would have been if I stayed where I was before in my old business, there's just no way I would have been, you know, you know, fast-tracked my career the way I did.

So yeah, that's, that's obviously one of the, the great, great, great things about recruitment.

Absolutely.

So, um, okay then, so just quickly, What would you say then was the biggest challenge for you in that first year? Like, what was the thing that you really struggled to get to grips with that's worth just talking about for a second? What did you find most difficult?

I, I think at that time what I didn't realize, it was, it was probably more personal reasons outside of work.

Okay.

Um, at the time my mother was really ill. It was very difficult time for me that I didn't really— I didn't realize how much it affected me until I was out of that situation, out of— until it passed. Um, But on a daily basis, I think getting, getting my head around the jobs, you know, getting my head around, you know, the market, you know, really committing myself to becoming a master in my market. I think until I decided to make, um, almost become obsessed with everything at being, you know, knowledgeable at, you know, knowing exactly who my clients were, who their competitors were.

Yeah.

You know, knowing the candidates. I think when I made that decision, that constant decision to, you know, really commit to knowing that and dedicating and becoming obsessed. I think I was just coasting, and it just— it wasn't— it wasn't until that I tasted a little bit of, you know, the billings, you know, the earnings, that I thought, you know, hold on a minute, this is— yeah, you know, this is really— there's so much potential here.

That's interesting.

So that was— yeah, that was a big turning point.

Last question around that. So obviously, totally get personal circumstance. Yeah, because that's obviously really difficult. And then hindsight's a great thing, right? Well, actually, that did definitely impact my mental game and these sorts of things. But if, if you was to go back again, yeah, how would you approach it differently? Like, if we think of people listening there a year in or whatever, like, or early on, how would you approach it differently, do you think?

I think I definitely— so I think the biggest thing is to— and again, it's quite cliché, but it's just so true— is knowing your market. You know, you need to know your market. Um, you don't need to be an expert, but you need credibility. And I think as soon as you start becoming credible and people, um, trust in you— because that's the hardest thing, is gaining people's trust, both the client and the candidate side— you only have a small period of time to do that, especially on the first, on, on a potential first phone call. I think, you know, committing myself to becoming credible, to, to understand what I'm positioning, how am I different from the other 10 recruiters that have contacted this individual that same day. In some cases, I think that's the biggest turning point for me. I think as soon as you understand that, you know, don't take anything for granted, don't be— don't take it, um, to heart or too seriously. There used to be times when, you know, I might hit the post with a candidate, you know, they might get an offer or might have rejected it, or, or, you know, sort of been rejected at final stage, or whatever it may be, is to, to not let it affect you.

Yeah, that's— that is a big—

it's so hard, you know, don't get me wrong, it's so hard. And that is one thing that I felt that maybe set me up for where I am now, is I had a lot of that in the first year, really, and that really hardened me up to the point where you just have to get on with it, you have to move on. I think if you can deal with that heartbreak and all that at the beginning, then it gives you a better chance to, um, yeah, you know, push on further down the line. If you have things all your own way to begin with, you often think it's quite easy, you know.

Yeah, no, that, that's a, um Really good point. So just, just quickly on that. Yeah, um, knowing your market, these types of things. Yeah, I think all I would say on that, I think if I was listening right now and I was early on, it is because I speak to people that, um, when I sort of work with people, sometimes they might have less than a year's experience, whatever. And a real challenge for people is, is feeling like they know their market and having the confidence like they know their market, even though they're like 6 months, 12 months. Yeah, yeah, do you get what I mean?

Absolutely.

That is difficult at the beginning to actually truly believe that you're a master. And obviously it's a process. So I guess just a quick one on that, mate. Obviously, obviously you're going to be speaking to candidates, speaking to clients in terms of consistently learning about them, but how much was you doing outside of work out of interest?

Okay, so, and again, this is I think a big difference. So, um, outside of work, I— it's, it's interesting because I don't think that compared to now, probably hardly anything at the beginning. At the beginning, I was— and there was other circumstances. I was commuting from Brighton to London, um, you know, I was leaving it, getting trains at like 6 in the morning, you know, getting up at 5, getting trains at 6 in the morning to be at the office at quarter to 8, having a full day there, getting a train back at like, um, half 6, quarter to 7, and getting through the door probably about 9 o'clock. So it was, it was very grim, um, but but that definitely contributed to it. And these are the things I don't think I realized until, until the time passes. Like you say, hindsight's a great thing. But until that time passed and went and I reflected, I thought, okay, there were, there were challenges, but there's always going to be challenges, right? Yeah. And I think, like I said earlier, you know, now to the point where I'm quite obsessed with everything, to the point probably where I don't close my laptop or turn my phone over enough, I think if you put that effort in and it's I say this to the people we hire within our business at the moment, you know, the associates coming in, is you, you've got to be prepared to go above and beyond. If you're not going to do something different to all the other recruiters out there, then you can't expect different results. If you want to be the best, if you want to have the best market knowledge, if you want to know, you know, everything about your candidates, you need to do something different. You need to do what others aren't willing to do. And I think when you make that commitment, you can see so many results out of this. And I think it's just directly impacted by that.

When was that moment then for you? Was it like 18 months in, 2 years in?

I'd say that moment, yeah, yeah. About 18 months, 2 years in when I went and actually worked internally for a vendor, which really helped me. I think when I worked—

What, when you was at Stockman?

No, when I left Stockman, I went and did a contract at a vendor. Understood how they work from within, you know, how they work with stakeholders, the processes, and some of the challenges they face. That gave me a really rounded understanding. So from both sides of the fence. And then really when, you know, when I started, you know, with Soap, just again, I think it's that sink or swim mentality, right? When you have to make something work, you have to do whatever you can. You've got to do whatever it takes. And as soon as my mindset switched and, you know, I started really doing, you know, spending more time, more hours investing in, in my development, that's when I— when everything clicked for me.

So it didn't click at Stockton United?

Just— it just didn't. It just didn't happen for me.

It just didn't happen. That's like just under 3 years.

Yeah, no, no, it just didn't happen. It just didn't happen for me. It just— and it's nothing— I don't think it's, it's got anything to do with, um, anyone there or—

if you're playing the blame game, then you're not going to improve either.

It wasn't. No, no, I take full blame.

So how, how did you stay in that role, mate? I like, what made you stay in that? Do you know what I mean? That's difficult.

You know what, that it's, it's hard because everyone, you know, they're taking a leap of faith on you. Uh, you know, the pressure's on, you're feeling the pressure because you want to deliver, but it's just not quite happening. Um, there's, you know, and I'm, I'm the kind of person that takes all the blame on, you know, there's— I, I don't like playing the blame game. There's only one person that's responsible for the outcome, and that's, and that's me.

Definitely.

So for me personally, it was difficult, it was challenging, but there wasn't really anyone else to blame. I had the tools that I needed, you know, I was trained well, I had a good mentor. There wasn't— it just was— it was just one of those times where it just didn't quite happen to me. And I'm, I'm usually— over the years I've been successful at what I've done, you know, I've really tried hard to achieve targets and goals and, you know, really push myself, but it just, for whatever reason, it just, it just didn't happen for me.

How did you keep your job?

You have to ask— you'll have to ask the CEO. It was—

that's like real— that's a real question though, you know what I mean? Because like Yeah, that's mad.

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, I was still billing, but it wasn't fireworks.

I mean, we, we worked over 100K.

Um, so we then worked, we then worked on a, on a team basis. So myself, another, yeah, another. So basically it was underneath, uh, let's say a 360, and then there was myself delivering another, um, um, colleague that was delivering. So we worked off a team. So effectively, team commission. So we got team commission. Oh no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So effectively, put this way, so we, we work together as a team so we could effectively help ourselves and each other out on the months where one of us maybe didn't do so great. There might have been quarters where one person did really well and the other didn't, but we had that relationship between each other. Okay, that was really good. We're all friends, we all knew each other, and we were all prepared. We all prepared to do that. We were all on board with that. That wasn't something that was put upon us, that's something that we agreed with Really? Together? Yeah. So really, in all essence, that was probably one of the main reasons. But as a team, we did deliver. But personally, I would— I would be—

you felt like you could have brought more to the table?

100%. 100%.

Okay, just, just quickly, because this is the first time this— we've spoken about this, and I don't— obviously we won't make the assumption like this is what it's like throughout the whole company. With it— well, you're within your time there, you agreed as a team that you're gonna do it in a team approach. Like, how the hell did that work commission-wise? Just quickly, because that—

yeah, it was—

it, it's—

so effectively, we got paid a team commission. The 360 individual who owned the clients, um, and the account relationships, they obviously got a larger part of the, um, of the commission. But then it always meant that me and the other, um, individual, my colleague, we always got something, you know. It always meant that we— which in essence actually wasn't too bad because it always meant that you got some type of commission.

Yeah.

Um, but it also didn't mean there was never any fireworks. Yeah. I mean, so So it could have been better, but it could have been worse. You know, the months that you don't bill and you're not getting any commission, you know, yeah, often recruiters' base commission isn't very good. So yeah, in essence, it actually didn't work out too badly. But of course, it was, you know, when you get into recruitment, you're getting into it for the big paychecks. You know, you want that success, you want the, you know, the, um, the big commission. Um, but it definitely didn't happen for me there, and it was, it was really tough because, you know, it's a long period not to have that taste. And I was always having conversations with my mentor, and we're always, you know, he was always, um, you know, believing in me, telling me that, you know, I could do the job, that I— it was just a matter of time, you know. He— that the belief there is one of the big reasons which, which kept me going.

Um, and could you do team commission again? Answer it. Well, be honest.

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I could.

Not now there's fireworks.

Yeah, I think— do you know what, we've you know, we've got a system at Soap where, um, I think it's a little bit different. It's not the same to, to, um, what, what we were doing at, uh, Scott and May. So actually, it, um, there's, there's good and bad bits to that. And also, I'm investing in the, um, the people we bring in, you know. I was once an associate, and for me, it's nice to, um, you know, one of my, you know, part of my job is to, is to progress them, you know, is to teach them, to mentor, help them, and get them to where they want to be, just, just like I was.

Yeah. Eventually, man. I'll come to team commission, mate.

Yeah, it's— look, it's not for everybody, um, and, uh, I think it's important to— it's important to help out the individuals around you. And if it— if it, you know, essentially if it gets them to where they need to be, it gets a business to where it needs to be, then—

you'd say this though, wouldn't you?

No, fair enough.

No, that's right. I just think that's— that's so interesting, that team commission concept like that. That's— that's, um, Really interesting. I was on the phone with someone the other day who said they had team commission, and I was just like, oh my God, like, there's— yeah, I don't think I could ever do that. But what I just wanted to ask you quickly before we really dig into sort of that moment you experienced and sort of the journey you're on now and sort of what you've been able to achieve, because I think that's, that's where a lot of people get value. So, um, you mentioned obviously mentor a few times. Talk to me a bit about that because that's something that I'm really passionate about, and I think a lot of people can benefit from. So, um, was this mentor, was it someone within the business?

Was it—

yep. Okay, and, um, how did this relationship form then? Was it something that the business promoted? Does it happen organically?

Yeah, he's— I'm still with him now. So he basically is the individual that brought me into business. He was— he mentored me.

Okay, um, well, and then was he your manager?

Yes.

Ah, yeah, yeah.

So, and everything that I essentially learned, majority of it came through him. Really? There were other senior stakeholders in the business, you know, the team leads, individuals that I still work with today as well, who had a big input. Um, but most of it came through him.

Okay.

And that's really important. That's something that I'm trying to, you know, trying to—

just tell me a bit about how did that— how did that then— obviously, how did you then, um, how did that become— yeah, a mentor. Obviously this person was your manager. Yeah. So what, what, what was the sort of slight differences in terms of what made it a bit more of a mentor? Did you get what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, of course. It's interesting because it was— it's, it's The relationship actually evolved that way.

Okay.

The relationship, obviously I knew him personally, we were friends, we'd worked together before, um, we'd always been fairly close and we'd grown up, um, in the same circles. Um, but then when I came, um, into the business at the start of May, it was, you know, with him all the time. We traveled up to London together, we got the train together. Um, he essentially taught me, um, he gave me the training program um, he, or he was one of the individuals that came up with the training program and delivered the training program. So he invested a lot of time into me, um, 100%. Um, we have quite similar personalities, um, we butt heads a little bit as well because we're quite similar, um, but at the same time, um, we share a lot of the same interests, the passion, the drive, you know, we, we do share a lot of the same traits. So, um, it was quite easy to learn off him and soak it up, and I think he found it easy to work with me as well and, and to deliver the message. Um, so yeah, to be, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be where I am today without him, 100%.

Like it. Last thing before we move on to— so just because I remember our own personal conversations, this came up— big billers at Stock May. Yeah, see any of those when you were there?

Yes. Yep, I did. I saw a few.

What did you notice?

Uh, these people Okay, so what did I know about ACP? These people were dedicated, 100%, knew their market, always consistent, always, always consistent.

Um, was that in what they were doing on a daily basis?

Yeah, on a daily basis.

It's more than consistent, always seeing their name on the board or whatever. It's like, you know, it's, it's—

and I keep— I say the word obsession quite a lot. I think you have to be, I think you have to be to be at that level where you can, where you can bill X amount, you know, year in, year out or quarter in, quarter out. It's tough. It's difficult. There's so many things you need to take into consideration, so many different factors that a lot of them are outside of your control. There's only so much you can control, which is— yeah, which is really interesting with recruitment because, you know, control the controllables and then the rest of it, there isn't much you can do about it. Try your best to—

yeah.

Uh, you know, influence. But I think every, every individual that I saw had very similar traits, and it was the fact they were very, very consistent. Um, they were dedicated day in, day out. They always, you know, they always performed. Um, it was very rare that you saw them have like an off day or a bad day. It was keeping a real high level of intensity, um, and that's hard. And it definitely, it definitely inspired me That's one thing that I noticed, that, um, you know, seeing these individuals walk around the office.

Yeah.

You know, they're, um, there was an aura around these people, right? And it, it motivated me. You know, one of the first things I saw when I went into, you know, the office was, you know, the, the wall that had all the money on it and the billings, and everyone was right. And I was like, wow, I had no idea how, what it meant.

Yeah.

And how it was, um how the commissions worked, but when I saw the numbers on the board, on the wall, I was like, you know, is this possible? This is— wow. Yeah, wow. So, you know, one of the first weeks I think I was there, um, I was like, this is just, you know, the unreal type of money.

So yeah, yeah, okay, interesting. So then, um, left store in May, obviously started Soap. Yeah, with, uh, business partners.

Yes.

How long are you into that journey now?

Um, over 2 years. It's over 2 years.

Just over 2 years. Um, and talk to me a bit about the beginning of that journey, mate. Definitely not going to be easy.

No, it's not going to be easy. It was—

who was that?

It was, it was myself, um, 2 other colleagues. Um, like I said, after we did our internal stint, um, we then basically got into a position where we, we wanted to— we had our own ideas. We had our own ideas of the— we had our own message. Um, I felt after we worked internally for a vendor and really understood some of the challenges they faced—

how long did you do that for?

Um, 6, about 6 months.

Okay, let's just focus on that for a sec. Yeah, just because I think there's so much value people can get out of that. So let's just talk a bit about, as you were just saying there— sorry, mate— 6 months. So that you started your January, so yeah, 6 months at this vendor.

Yeah.

So when you say vendor, you're in the cybersecurity space?

Cybersecurity space.

So, okay. So you worked internally. So let's just share with everyone what were the, the real challenges that you saw within this business on the recruitment side.

Yeah.

And then also let's think about how much did you get involved, like, like as a recruiter.

Yeah.

What were some of the horrific things that you saw from the agencies that tried to— did you know, I mean, it was—

yeah, it was— I think a real big challenge was aligning, um, stakeholders, aligning people, ensuring everybody was on the same page. Because you've got, you've got hiring managers and stakeholders in different regions, different cultures, different communication styles who want one thing. Then you've got TA who have another objective which is not too dissimilar to the stakeholder in that region, but, um, they have an objective they need to achieve. And then even HR and the finance side of things, you have so many different business units and stakeholders that of course all want the, the common end goal, which is to hire somebody Yeah, but they're not always aligned. And I think that was the biggest eye-opener, was that being on the other side of the fence as an agent in an agency and thinking over the years, like, you know, getting disgruntled with the TA teams, hiring managers.

Yeah.

You know, why haven't they offered a candidate? Or, you know, some of the challenges you face, you don't actually realize how they come about until you're in that position yourself, in essence, which is where we found ourselves. And, and actually it really gave us an insight into the daily challenges, um, that, um, that they go through. And it really allowed me to understand the, the, their position and what I can do as an agent differently to try and help them. And I think that was really interesting because it, it gave me the— it gave me an insight into the businesses, the type of businesses that I was, um, you know, working with.

Yeah.

But really get to understand the internal workings, and it was really, really invaluable.

That's, that's crazy that you even— you found it a challenge being internal within the walls. Absolutely. The state, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Let alone being outside.

Well, that's crazy. It just doesn't— not a whole lot, you know, of course a lot changes, but there's different, there's different challenges, um, and I don't think you really understand that. It's, it's tough. It's really tough. You know, these are sometimes hyper-growth, you know, vendors that are experiencing huge growth that are willing to invest in bringing people, you know, into their teams globally. But things, things happen so quickly. Things can change so quickly. You know, the ideas, the budgets, there's so many things that can change. And then like I said, you've got different people, different stakeholders within different business units all pulling, you know, left and right, different, who all want different things. And it's so hard. That was the biggest challenge, to try and align everybody to get that common goal.

So with that in mind then, definitely people listening in their market that aren't in your world are definitely going to experience the same challenge. I think that's fair to say, right?

Yeah, 100%.

So let's just share with everyone then, mate. With that challenge that you saw, that you experienced, how can people and how do you approach now getting the stakeholders within the clients that you work with more aligned? Knowing what you know now, how can you try and get these people aligned?

It's, it's, I think it's communication, understanding the main drivers from all the stakeholders involved. What are the main drivers that they, that they all have? Because effectively some of them will be the same and it's trying to align them all together. Yeah. And getting them to work to achieve that, that end goal. That, that is a tough side. But if you can, if you can have some control over the process I think now that, now that I'm out, you know, in the age, you know, back in agency and, you know, working with the clients we do today, it's— I think the process is trying to, is trying to understand and having control over the recruitment process. That is really important. And when I worked internally, I got an insight into how, how it works. When, when, when you're from the outside, you don't really have that much visibility. You're only told what you're told. Yeah, sometimes you don't have it. You don't have any exposure to hiring managers. You know, you might not, you know, you might just work purely with the TA. That's the policy some vendors have, right? So there isn't a huge amount you can do. But if you can, you know, have that, that direct line and you can create some type of control that, you know, these are the types of things that gave me a better understanding about. And I really think maybe that's a big reason as to why now I'm having a lot more success because I understand better how these companies work internally.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. So firstly, you need to actually understand who, who's involved in, in, um, making, um, making this hire, or who's involved in enabling me to put this person into this business, whatever. And then again, feeling that down. So right, so there's, there's 3 people involved: hiring manager, um, owner of the business, and TA, whatever, just making it up. And actually then treating those people as individuals and why it's important to them to get that.

Absolutely.

And some of them may be the same Yeah, because you quite said something might be the difference. So then when I'm speaking to Tia and going, look Susie, um, like this is where we're at with things, blah blah blah, remember you told me why this is really important to get this hire, you know? Yeah, so you've got your headcount targets, blah blah blah.

Yeah.

And then you're on the phone to Jim, who's a hiring manager, go, look Jim, like this is where we're at with it, blah blah blah, you know, you tell me like this is gonna enable you to hit your quota target.

Exactly, exactly.

Is that fair?

It's still inside you.

Is that fair to say?

Absolutely.

So I think a lot of people can benefit from that. It's like, don't treat everyone with this, that they all have this. Also, everyone has the same objective.

Absolutely.

But the same drivers. And then I'm assuming that you then, if you really make the time to understand these people on individual basis and individual drivers, you can then use that to influence them.

Exactly. And also, they've— it's often— it's also the types of individuals that these people are looking for. And we find it quite often with the clients that we work with today, it's like, you know, that the, the stakeholders in different regions might have an idea of what they want, but then the HR and TA team they might have a different opinion on what they're looking for. And it's actually sometimes they're not even aligned on the type of person they want. So it can be so challenging. There's— and these are the things that it's quite difficult because you can try and have control on— you probably want control on everything, but the reality is you're not going to get that. So it's about trying to influence and control where you can and then guide the process. But, you know, ultimately you can't have control over everything. But understanding, communicating with your clients and understanding them as people, I think it's so close to it's so important, sorry, to understand who you're working with, you know, their own values, you know, what that, that individual is about, what he's looking for, or what she may be looking for in the type of people they want to bring in. I think the better you understand the bigger picture, um, the more, the more chance you have of delivering value to your customer. And that's, that's, you know, the bottom line is what, what are you going to do differently, you know, how can you provide better value than than your competition.

Um, yeah, you just touched on it then. I was just interested to get your thoughts on when you say, like, obviously try and control the recruitment process, stuff like that. I mean, you're surely, like, now on obviously dealing with different clients, blah blah blah, you're limited to how much— like, what, what for you then, knowing what you know now, blah blah blah, like, what, what part of the recruitment process is, like, really key to you that you have influence over? And do you know what I mean? That's difficult.

Yes, it's tough. And again, every client's different and they all have different, um they all have different processes, they all have different rules of engagement in terms of engagement. You know, it never— I don't think any two clients are the same. I just think it's really important to ensure that you, you and the individuals that you're working with are all aligned. I think it's good to have timelines in place. I think it's really important to, as to understand what that— what your client wants how they're gonna— well, how they're going to achieve that and what they're, what they're also willing to do. What are they willing— the effort, the commitment they're willing to make for you to also achieve your, your end goal.

Okay.

Because it's, it's a partnership, and I think when everybody's aligned, including the agent, I think there's— that you can create a really streamlined process. And again, that's, that's obviously in an ideal world, but I think having, having the ability to, to, to speak with, meet with these people, really understand what they're looking for. That's the only way. I think if you, if you, if you treat it as too much of a numbers game, you're not, you're not going to get the outcomes you want and you won't, you won't be as targeted. So I think having that, you know, speaking with them, meeting them, understanding, you know, really in detail what they need, what they want, and then also getting the commitment from them, that is really important because Without that, it, you know, the processes, you know, interviewing, things can take so long. And then, you know, time kills deals. That's what— that's the big thing.

Yeah.

So the longer things goes on, the longer process can take, it can really affect the outcome.

Okay. So how is all of this and how you're approaching things and sort of your perspective on all this impacted your performance then, mate?

I think, I think that's what's been the big difference for me. I think Now that, now that I had that experience, you know, understanding how the internal companies work, understanding how my clients worked, I think that's really allowed me to position myself better with my clients.

Okay.

Allowed me to add more value to them and essentially allowed me to bill more because I'm able to control better the process than I did before. Don't get me wrong, it's not perfect.

It's—

there's always room for improvement.

We just have more of an understanding.

Definitely the difference between what I was doing before and what I'm doing now.

So what are you on track to do this year, mate? Come on, what are you hoping?

Um, plus 300. Plus 300. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good pipeline for Q4.

Will that be your biggest year?

Oh yeah, yeah, 100%.

What did you do the year before?

Um, 180, I think.

180?

180, yep.

Let's talk about this for a sec.

Yep.

I think a real comment, thinking of— so a few, just a couple more things I want to go into. Real common thing that people ask me about is business development. I know that's something that you feel pretty strongly about when you're talking about the client piece, blah blah blah. So, um, but just, just for a sec, let's sort of go into sort of Ali working at Stott May, being a bit of a flop.

Yep.

Now obviously joining, obviously being part of the Soap journey, um, putting 100K, 180K in your first year to now hoping to break the 300K mark. Like, that's a pretty hefty jump and different circumstance you're now in.

Yeah.

So let's break this down a bit because I think a real common thing that people ask me is, um, Hishem, I'm at the sort of 200K mark, 250K mark, I want to break the 300K mark. I'd love for you to talk to people about how they've broken through that plateau, do you know what I mean? Let's talk about that. So I'm sure some of the things you already spoken may contribute to this, as you were just saying, but yeah, how, how do you think and what part, key parts, have sort of contributed to you, yeah, potentially being able to break that 300K mark?

I think so, the Firstly, the big thing was, as soon as I joined Soap, I was doing, um, 360 role. So I was doing— I had my own clients where I was going and delivering on my own clients. Before that, I wasn't. I was doing purely delivery. Yeah, but, um, it's something that I really— that I felt that I fell into really well. I've always been in previous sales roles, I've always been quite new business focused. It wasn't something I had a problem with, you know, trying to, um, reach out to new clients and leveraging my network and relationships to, to get meetings and bring on new roles. I actually, you know, I actually enjoy that, and, and that's a really strong part of, of, um, my, uh, my abilities. But, um, I think that, like, the difference is now is that it's working, working roles that you know you can fill is really important. I think working the quality of job— something we're really hot on is making sure you invest your time working on the roles that you have a much higher chance of filling, whether that's about the control you have, the relationship you have with the client, wherever that relationship may be. Invest your time on filling those roles where you've got better chances.

Quick one, sorry to butt in. Yeah, how do you measure if it's a fillable role?

Okay, so we've, we've got our own, we've got our own analyzer.

Give it to me, um, come on.

So we— so basically it's a brainchild of one of the, the directors, and he's, um, he's very, very creative with this kind of stuff, and there's something actually, a new process that he's put in where we kind of analyze our clients and we look at, um, we score them and rate them, okay, um, for different things on, you know, from many things we talked about earlier, you know, what kind of relationships you have, who you're speaking with, budget for roles, time to hire, you know, have they got interviews, etc., arranged, quite a few different things. We then give them each of those a score.

Okay, you do personally?

Yeah, personally, out of 5.

Out of 5.

And then we rate them at the end, so you get this, the final figure.

Yeah.

Um, and then you can gauge there. It's quite interesting because then you can actually go, hold on a minute, I thought I had a really good— this, you know, this was a really good client of ours that we've got really good quality jobs. And then you actually look at it and you think, hold on a minute, actually it didn't score as high as I thought it would. You know, where can I make differences?

Wait, what are the key metrics again? Sorry, I think that's really useful for people to know.

Yeah, so there's, there's quite a few different things, but the we rate on, um, so the relationship we have, right?

How do you measure that though? Just like, so who with?

How, how, like, for example, how often you're speaking with these, um, with the clients?

Yeah, yeah.

Do you have weekly calls? Are you speaking to TA? You speaking to a hiring manager?

Okay, okay.

Is this someone you've worked with before?

And that all contributes to the measuring of how good the relationship is? Exactly that.

Um, you know, have they got budget for a role?

Yeah.

Do you have um, is— are they exclusive terms? Are you working retained?

Yeah.

Are you— there's so many— there's quite a few different things, right?

Um, and then that spits out an overall number, and it's like X means that this is a very—

let's say out of— let's just say out of 20, let's say out of 20, and you, you score 10, you're like, okay, hold on a minute, that's— I thought it was gonna be higher than that. And then, then that allows you— and also it allows you to see where you could be weak on the account and where you could see that. So really, really good tool. And that gives us a chance to really understand what level of service we're providing for our clients at the moment and where we can improve. And, you know, there's always areas where you think you can improve, but it's also down to the client as well to work with you. And it's actually quite a good tool to use to show them and say, you know, we've actually— we gain feedback from the clients on this. And it's, it's quite interesting to get their feedback because it also allows them to see maybe whether they're slightly weak. So if you've got a good relationship with with the internal talent acquisition teams, you can position this in a way where it's actually beneficial for them to understand, um, you know, how, how it is or what it looks like for an agency to work with them. So actually give them—

I totally get that. So it's like, look, TA, like typically where our best relationships, where we offer the best value, exactly, they typically rate around this. What I've noticed is right now we're pulling these areas.

Exactly.

If if you're serious about getting to where you want to get to, achieve your targets, this is why we need to invest that. So I think that's wicked. So just quickly, before you talk about other things, so definitely couldn't agree more. Work jobs that you can fill. Yeah. And you've become really good at that.

Yeah.

Including this system like this. So for someone listening right now who'd be like, Ali, this sounds great, however it sounds a bit complex, blah blah blah, from your experience, yeah, what have you always made sure out of all those metrics? Typically, if it's one or two things, one thing that you make sure it's scoring high, would you say? Like, do you know what I mean?

You've— I think you've always, you've always got to ensure that you're staying close to the market. You're speaking to candidates, whether they're new or old, keeping in touch. Um, a really interesting thing is I made— I've made a lot of placements with candidates who I initially didn't have, um, success with, with placing or getting them interested with a role, right? A lot of people may just, um, make an assumption. Assumption's a really bad thing to do. You should never assume in this game.

I don't know if I made that question clear. We're gonna go into this. Yeah, so what I just wanted from you— sorry, yeah, was like, you know, you're talking about the metric. Yeah, all I just wanted you to sort of say was like, right, if I— if there was one thing.

Yep.

Or two things, three things, whatever.

Yeah.

That you, you, that you always make sure that your client scores high on.

Oh, clients.

Yeah, yeah, so that was my bad. So what I just wanted to sort of finalize that was— sorry, sorry, this sounds great. 100%, I need to be making sure that I'm measuring my relationships, I'm working for liberal jobs. Okay, yeah, yeah. So what I just want to say was, if someone's listening right now and they're like, right, so obviously I'm not— maybe it'd be a bit difficult to measure all the metrics, I don't have this blah blah blah, but I listened to this podcast and Ali said if I always make sure that XXX is always scoring higher, I feel really strongly about it, that's going to mean that I'm going to have the best possible chance of winning the job. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So you would always make sure it's always at the level of engagement, right?

So the terms are commercial terms, but the level of engagement with the, with, with the client. So, okay, whether it's— I mean, obviously retained is always the best, but exclusive, having exclusivity, yeah, on a role for a period of time. Yeah, yeah. Um, the better relationship, of course, the, the, the more trust you'll have. But, um, and even proving yourself. And what I've done over the past, um, with, with new clients is always ask them to measure me on my success and giving me a chance and giving me an opportunity to prove myself on a set period of time.

Yeah.

And then if I don't, then, then fine. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't proven myself to you. And I always find that because that's given me an opportunity to, to produce and put me under pressure.

Okay, so it's, so it's ultimately, there's a lot of factors that go into it, but if you're listening right now, really think about the level engagement, level these clients are giving you, that you have jobs for. Absolutely. Even as much as, are they returning your Like, are they giving you interview feedback quickly?

Exactly.

Are they, are they willing to give you a chance to see if you can deliver, blah blah. So there's a lot of things that go into it, but ultimately the core of it is, if you're listening right now and you want to build more, let's look at your client, take a back, look at your clients, like, right, who do I have the best relationships with now? And think about how engaged are they in with you. And these—

exactly that. Exactly. It's a quality. Exactly that.

All right, cool. So, and then obviously, as you were saying, mate, sorry to butt in, but I just want to make that clear. So like, as we were talking about, like How has Ali gone to this point where you're looking at breaking 300K marks? You're just talking about then, what other things come to mind for you then? So what other things do you think has really contributed to it?

Not being complacent, not assuming, like I said earlier, not assuming.

Human's big in it.

It's—

I used to be quite bad at it.

It's the mother of all, as you know.

Yeah, at the beginning it's so easy. I remember it so clearly. It's like, it's so easy at the beginning because there's an element of like being a bit like a bit not as confident on the phone, blah blah, but it's so easy to go— if like you was managing me and I was looking at CV I'd be like, nah, yeah, like you're looking for the thing that makes you decide not to call them.

Exactly.

In it, making that decision in your mind without even speaking to them, right? Yeah.

Do you know what the best thing but the worst thing for that is? The best and the worst thing, um, which has happened to me before, still happens to me now sometimes, and actually one of the best things to keep me on my toes is when a candidate that I know in my network, who I know pretty well I decided wasn't good for a particular role, then that individual comes up on LinkedIn, ping, has started at that client.

Oh, that is killer.

And that is the biggest bite in the ass you can get.

Yeah.

For you to, to, to realize that you can never assume. You just can't, because things change so quickly. And it's, and it's like I was saying before, was that the amount of placements that I've made, um, Speaking to candidates even about the same job 2 or 3 months before who said no, but then 2 or 3 months later things have changed, have then gone on and taken the job. It was, it was, it was things like that which I think have, have really spun it for me. Not being complacent, you know, complacent, sorry, not assuming anything, you know, ensuring that I'm speaking to my network, making sure I'm speaking to the best candidates possible. But never take anything for granted. I think as soon as you do that and get complacent, it's like you say, you can make, you can make the tiniest little excuse in your head not to ring a candidate, and that's it. Then, then they're off your list.

How do you catch yourself doing that now then? Because I'm sure, obviously, you managing obviously associates, blah blah blah.

Yeah.

How do you ensure that you don't assume? Because it's so easy to do.

It is so easy to do, and it's something that you try and filter down to the, to the associates, and you try and give them your own experience.

Yeah.

Do you know what? I've done that before and it hurts when you see that happen. When a candidate joins a client for a role that you paid for, it's painful. It's money out of your pocket. It's money out of your pocket. And it's happened to us before. It happened to us again.

I hate that.

It's about trying to, as hard as possible, to limit it. But it's, it's, you know, you have to correct, you know, do not assume. Call them. Why? You know, why? Why would you think they wouldn't? Oh, well, they might be at the budget or blah, blah, blah, whatever it might be. You know, how many times have you know, if you've got a good relationship with your client, you can get your clients to try and increase the budget. You know, you could then try and get the candidate. If it's the dream role for the candidate, they're probably gonna be willing to take a little bit less.

So you're doing this to yourself. I'm sure that you might need you, because I knew I needed my manager to do this a lot.

100%.

When we get people up, my old manager used to be like, so why haven't you called this person? And I have to justify what happened. And it's like, fuck, I don't know.

I still get called out now sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, exactly. So it's like, so you need to be having that conversation with yourself. 100%. If you— it's happening, it's what you preach. You've got to— yeah, you got— so you got to catch yourself. If you've— if you— yeah, it's just being able to have that internal dialogue and be like, yeah, okay, so I've just made a decision not to call this person.

Why? My mentor always said was, you know, what is your gut saying, right? And your gut— and if you—

if you—

if you're— if your gut is— if you're trying to get out of calling someone, if you're trying to make an assumption, but your gut— if you've got to say no, but you have to call this person, you just got to go with it. And it's about being honest to yourself.

Yeah.

You know, if, if the worst thing is to see candidates join your clients and, and put them in, and you can't You can't afford to do that because it's a phone call. It's a phone call. If you've got a relationship with that candidate already, yeah, you ask them, you know, the amount of times— this is a very quick market, um, cybersecurity market, software sales in general, enterprise sales. Things can change so, so quickly that candidates could say no to you one week and literally the next week could— it could be a completely different story.

Yeah. Anything else? So we've been talking about, mate, like working jobs that you can fill. Yeah. Making sure you're working with clients who are engaged, and, and as you said, to come, come, um, obviously, um, make money out of those relationships. Don't assume, don't assume anything else, mate, that comes up for you in terms of—

again, like I said, I think for me a big difference was, was when I was, when I was prepared to go above and beyond and become a bit more— use the word obsessed with it— that, that is where, where it came for me, was that, you know, when I was doing work or researching outside of work hours, you know, when I was prepared to, you know, take a shorter lunch break or, um, you know, just, just doing whatever I could to give myself the opportunity, you know, working more roles, getting more candidates in, just giving myself every chance I could to ensure that I filled a role, that I got my, my pipeline big enough to close as much as possible. I think as soon as you make the commitment to, um to do what others won't, that is when you'll see a big difference, you know. And, and, you know, it's, it's tough, it's difficult, but when you— when, when it clicks and it changes, and I think a lot of recruiters have that light bulb eureka moment where, yeah, I know, wow, it all changed. It's, you know, it— then you start getting all the benefits and, um, you know, achieving the success and the billings, whatever it may be, whatever your idea of success is. As soon as you start achieving that it becomes like a drug and you just want to keep doing it and doing it.

So what you're talking about is mindset and work ethic.

Mindset and work ethic. I think that is a, you know, the, you know, a big thing is to listen, is to, is to listen, right, to your, to your mentor, whoever your manager is. You know, if you believe in them, you trust in them, uh, and they've put the, the belief in bringing you on board, you know, listen to what they've got to say. It's so important because salespeople often, depending where you're coming from, whether it's from recruitment background or whatever else, you know, you you often think you know everything. A lot of people do, you know. And, um, you know, as soon as you listen, take things on board, be open to learning, you know, um, that, that was a big thing for me as well. Big, big time. And, and I think that's a big thing for everybody else out there, is if you want to— if you really want to, to make it happen, the mindset, being consistent, you know, making sure you're speaking to candidates. Um, this is, this is a job that you've got to call people, you know, you've got to get on the phone, you've got to speak to people. Yeah, it's so important, you know, it's, um, it's, it's not, it's not about who's got the, the best call times every day, the best call stats. It's obviously quality who you're speaking to and the kind of conversations you're having. But you're not going to get anywhere if you don't, if you don't speak to candidates, you know, if you don't speak to the market. That's where you'll learn everything.

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that, mate. And then just to add to that point, at the, um, live event, Tony, who was on the panel, he said, uh, he quoted, um, a book, uh, called Legacy, which is to do with the All Blacks. Yeah. And, um, one of the things that he said, which I think is great, and, and sort of, um, as to your point, so be interesting to get, to get your point on this, is like where, like, their sort of commitment was always when they're at the top of their game, like, always open to evolve and always open. You have to be, you know what I mean?

Have to be.

So it's that. So like, 100%, I can sense from you it's like, okay, so I might hit this mark, but that doesn't mean that I know it all. And you know what I mean? No, no, no, no, that's— you've got to be prepared to—

you, you have to be. And, and you know what, it's, um, and again, coming from what I saw myself at, at previous companies, what, you know, the mentor, my mentor, um, you know, seeing how much he built, and you always have to be willing to learn, take things on board. There's— there is, you know, I'm still relatively fresh into to my recruitment career. I think, I think really I am. I don't think I'm— there's no— there's so much more room for improvement, and you have to be willing and have that mindset. It's very easy to have a good month, a good quarter, a good year. You, you really are, you know, performing at a level or at top level when you are doing it quarter in, quarter out, year in, year out. That is when you're mastering your market. And, you know, I've got ambitions to, to do better. You know, I want to do better next year. You know, I want to, to, to, to build I want to bring on more clients. And that, that for me is I'm always looking and striving to do better. And that, that I don't think that'll stop. And that's a big thing for me personally. Is—

was you always like that?

I was always very competitive. I've come from like quite a sporting background. I played sports at quite a high level. I was very, you know, into, um, you know, individual and team sports. And that, that ingrained it in me, right? But I think the thing with the recruitment is because it's quite entrepreneurial and it's, it's all a— it's all a direct— everything that, that you gain is directly from your effort and your impact, then it becomes— you start seeing, actually, well, if I put in that energy, if I put in that effort, you know, if I make sure I'm consistent every day, things grow. And that's why it's a business within a business. And again, it's— there's so many clichés in recruitment, but they're all there for a reason, because they're true. And it's about what you can make of it.

Um, when you're on team commission, mate, not anymore. But yeah, totally changed. I think that's—

that was when it all changed.

That is— that is the mindset you want to have in That is what it's all about.

And it's, you know what, it's— and when I say about committing to it and becoming obsessed, it's, you know, it's when I stopped, you know, you know, partying as much. You know, I enjoyed going out and having a good time and everything, enjoying my family and friends. But when I started thinking to myself, actually, you know, if I do go out and if I do come in and have 2 or 3 days where I'm still catching up myself because I'm feeling a little bit rough, or it might be, you know, that those little chunks, they take up— yeah, you add them all up, right?

Yeah, yeah. All right, a couple things before we finish. Yeah, BD. Yeah, always talk about it on here just because it's, it's, as I'm sure you've experienced in people around you, people that you hire now, it's, it's a hard part of the job. Yeah. Um, it was definitely a difficult part for me. Obviously, as you said, you, from your prior experience getting into recruitment, you've been in the B2B world, you've always been on the phone, new business, etc., etc. So, um, obviously from what, from sort of our relationship and what I know about you, you see, and you have a focus on BD, and that's a big contributor to you, um, billing more, etc. So let's just talk a bit about sort of your perspective on business development. I mean, firstly, from the associate— I know obviously you've got a model where people deliver and focus on candidates, etc., but typically what are some of the things that you, you see or feel like people do on the BD front that sort of prevents them from having that success? Do you know what I mean?

I think you've got to— I, I personally believe that that actually bringing on a role isn't as hard as people think. I think bringing on clients and bringing on a role is actually easier than filling it. That's my personal belief, right? Um, I think people and consultants— and we have it where we've got, um, associates and consultants at the moment who are making that transition in their journey from going from a delivery consultant into looking into 360.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's about, it's about the process you have. It's about Um, how do you approach it? Um, I don't think that the big thing for me, the big difference for me, was when I stopped looking at hiring managers and big, um, big titles and big names as people that were unapproachable, people that, um, would not speak to me, that wouldn't answer the phone.

What changed that? Challenge that—

the mindset was just that I, I— what I started doing was treating them as a candidate.

Yeah.

As soon as I started treating a client as a candidate I could extract all the information I needed. Yeah, I could understand more about them. I could actually offer them a bit more value when I was talking on their level as not someone that just wanted something from them, someone was actually prepared to speak to them and understand what they might be looking for when they move. You know, I think too many BD or individuals, recruiters that are trying to move into BD, you know, they're cold calling and they're just going straight in for the kill. They're going straight in trying you know, pickup roles. And, um, you know, I just don't think that's the best approach. I think as soon as you start treating them like, um, a client and building— sorry, as a candidate— and building long-term relationships. And again, I said this before about, um, you know, with candidates where I've, where I've not, um, may have placed a candidate 2 or 3 months after the first time I spoke to them about a particular role, or where they might have said no. The same thing applies for, for a client, you know. You're not always going to, you know, score a goal on the first shot, right? You have to be prepared to play a little bit of the long game, keep in touch, you know, say you'll follow up when you say you're going to follow up.

Yeah.

You know, things— again, things change in their world a lot. So it's— there's so many things that need— you need to consider. But, but a lot of recruiters will not do what they say they're going to do. So if you say you're going to follow up, if you're going to keep in contact, you know, follow up when you say you're going to follow up, you know, that's come up a couple of times.

So what do you, do you book it? Do you say, right, do you agree it there and then on the call?

Absolutely, agree it there and then on the call. Um, you know, I make sure I stay in contact with them. WhatsApp, and then you're putting it on your diary, put in my diary, just keep contact, you know, share personal interests, you know, keep, keep close to them, talk, you know, discussing actually things about the market and their industry that are relevant, gaining their feedback on things. Um, it's, it's a relationship, and you know, if you want to become a trusted partner It has to be a much more, you know, have to be on a deeper level than just transactional. Yeah. And I think as soon as you start getting relationships with these individuals and they begin to trust you more, and it's more than just, um, on a transactional level, things will change. And then you'll be the first person they think about. Again, there's times when I've had, you know, um, clients that it's taken me, you know, 6 months or a year to convert, which is a long time, but then they become some of my biggest clients. Yeah, it's about, it's about, you know, the approach. It's about doing what you say you're going to do, keeping in touch with them, keeping in contact, um, taking interest, you know, speaking, being a master of your market.

So you mentioned there around, obviously a lot of people typically just go straight in for the kill.

Yeah.

So you're talking about, yeah, if I, if I'm, um, you're in my market and I see Ali, he's a CEO, and I call him and it's like, Ali, I'm a specialist recruiter, blah blah blah, like, have you got any jobs? Right, that's what you're talking about. How do you typically approach it now then?

I think, look, there's a time and a place for that. I think if, if you speak to candidates, um, who are actively interviewing and they're interview— they tell you they're interviewing with, um, a company that you're not working with for a particular role that you know you've got candidates for, definitely go straight in for it. It can be, it can be as simple as that. It can be. And, and it depends on their need. How urgent is that need for them? Yeah, if they're desperate, the likelihood is the hiring manager will say, yeah, just send me the candidate, I'll have a look at them. You know, if they're good, the CV is good, and I'll interview them. And it can be, don't get me wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

But, but more often than not, it probably isn't. Um, but I think it's a good approach is to be targeted and understanding where the need is. So if you do know that, um, uh, that, that companies are looking for a particular individual in a particular, um, territory, if you know that they use agencies, you know, if you know that they engage with external headhunters to help support them, you can be targeted about your approach Um, you can, you know, a lot of the times, um, I've had, um, and brought on new clients off the back of, you know, doing senior hires. So when I've had big senior hires for some of my clients and I've reached out to the market for, you know, senior leaders, um, you know, it's like flipping them from— yeah, yeah, you, you, you know, the idea is if you, if you get a shortlist of 10 candidates and one of them gets a job, you've got 9 other candidates there that you've built up a good relationship with and shown them your process, showing them how you deal with a candidate. Showing them the, the kind of detail you go into, and, and then it's a much easier conversation to go into, well, look, you know, you know, are you hiring? You know what, you know, last time we spoke you mentioned that you got some headcount coming up for the next year, or you're replacing someone, you're finding it difficult.

Yeah, that always seems like a bit of a quite effective way to—

yeah, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's not, it's not new. Yeah, no, but it works, it works, it works, it works. And look, you know, at the end of the day, if, um, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But I think, I think key part there is that mindset shift of making sure you don't look at hiring managers, CEOs, whatever.

It is another human being. And I promise you now, what's so interesting— and I say to all the, um, the associates and consultants and moving through into a 360— is I get the best response, um, for, um, particular jobs when they're senior leaders. I find that I get a better response rate when I'm reaching out to candidates for senior leadership roles than when I do for just a, an account manager in a particular region.

You're saying when you reach out to senior people, when you're talking to them about potential jobs, are they open to jobs?

Exactly. If I've got a senior—

would you make up a job or would you always do it when you've got a job?

Let's be real, a bit of both.

Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

100%. And it is— totally agree. You know, I'll be honest about it, it's, um, it's a bit of both, um, but it it's, it's so interesting to see that the senior leaders, you, you build up this, you kind of put them on such a pedestal where you think they're so unapproachable. And often, look, these guys are so busy, man, you know, they haven't got time to barely speak to their family, let alone another recruiter. But when you go to them with a senior-level job, it is so interesting to see how, how many of them respond.

It's different.

It's so interesting.

Okay, that brings me on to the last sort of point. I'd be stupid to not talk to you about this, mate, because obviously we've been doing, um, some stuff together. I think this ties quite nicely with the BD stuff, right?

Here comes a plug.

No, no plug, mate. But I will— I look, I obviously, as you know, I'm really passionate about personal branding.

Yeah.

So I think let's just, just talk a bit about sort of your experience in not doing overly loads a bit on LinkedIn. Yeah, like the typical recruiter. Yeah. To now you've, you've become really consistent in sharing videos, blah blah blah. So let's just focus on the BD piece. Like, how, how was sort of you, you consistently sharing content amongst with the headhunting and doing— so then we're talking about how is it, how has it impacted massively? Yeah. So like, is it, has it— so like, in, in terms of speaking to people off the back of videos there, do you know what I mean?

I've had, um, as you know, like, you saw the success I've had, you know, even within the first day, the first hour.

Yeah.

Um, But it's what— what the interesting thing, the part that you brought that, um, that I think people know, but again, it's not committing to it. And you know, you're, you're opening, um, your eyes to using LinkedIn as, as a source to project to the market, to your network, yourself, your brand. Because at the end of the day, people are buying people, right?

Yeah.

The thing about recruitment is that people buy the individual and not necessarily the brand name. So it could be any name. And, and what you've done, and I think that the impact it's had on, on, you know, what I'm doing is, you know, I'm doing things differently to what other recruiters are doing, especially in my space. And what was interesting, what you brought to my attention was that a lot of my competitors aren't doing anything.

So it's been, it's been able to feed everything you're talking about.

Exactly.

Just the point, because I think 100% that everyone in terms of BD, keep, keep doing what you do. As you said, don't, you don't need to fix something that isn't broken. No. Do all of that, but then at the same time you have an amazing tool right now in terms of LinkedIn. You can start sharing opinions. So that, that's just huge for me, that people understand that that's also a tool in your arsenal. Yeah, that you can use. Do you know what I mean? Um, okay mate, as we finish— yes, um, what I wanted to, um, ask you was one thing actually, because I've been asked, um, a lot about it recently. Sort of always just mention at the end, counter offers.

Yes.

What's been your experience like that in the— because I've had quite a few messages recently saying, Hishem, I've really felt that like counter offers have become like, they've been more prevalent than they have been in the last year or so, if that's because of Brexit, whatever.

Yeah.

How— what's been your sort of perspective?

Yeah, I've been stung a few times, if I'm honest. Um, but, but the, but the interesting thing is, and, and the statistics around this is, you know, So if someone— I think counter offers, you've always got to, to speak to the candidate about and remind them about the reasons they're looking in the first place. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a statistic out there, and I think it's above 80%, that, um, candidates who accept a counter offer from their current employer will leave their job within 6 months. I think so.

I don't know how true that is.

It's out there.

The thing is, the only reason I say that is like, I just, I just, I just like— I've seen so many, so many recruiters do content on this.

Yeah.

And the Spanish changes all the time.

Okay, well, I get what you're saying.

So do you, do you say that to candidates?

I've used, I've used the number. Yeah, yeah, but at the same time, it's— you have to remind them what, you know, why are you looking at me? Because money— if, if it was about money, the likelihood is if the— if your client who wants to hire that candidate really wants them, and in a business, their current employer comes in with a counter offer, if your client really wants them there is a chance that they will stretch their budget to try and match that or more. There is always that chance. But if you're— if it's about the money, then you can get more money. But if it's about more than that, you know, it's identifying the pain. And often that pain could be, you know, um, not getting on with their manager. So if they accept the counteroffer, they're still not going to get on with the manager. There's so many—

so it comes back to the beginning, like you need to know what their drivers are, reason for leaving. That's the bottom line.

Remind them of that, because money's— money's never— money's is not going to solve that problem. It's not going to change it.

All right, mate, what are you excited about for the future? Yeah, man, what are you excited about?

So many things. We're growing. We've got, um, you know, we've got our plans. We've got plans to, to, to grow, you know, across US, across different territories, um, you know, inviting new people into the business. Um, we've got, you know, it's, it's such an office in Brighton.

I've also been to the Brighton office. You have? You've just got the place next door.

You've got a place next door as well.

Yeah, it's quite empty, mate. You need to get some people in there.

No, we, we've got big plans to grow. Yeah, we've, we just, um, we're at a really exciting time. Um, it's still a big learning curve for me, for me personally. Um, but really excited to continue my personal development, my growth, you know, working with you with my personal branding there. Um, the possibilities, it's, it's a really exciting time. And, um, definitely for me personally right now, it's, it's my career. These are the highlights of my career at the moment. Yeah, it's amazing, mate. Glad to hear it.

So Last question I always ask people before we finish.

Yep.

So you can answer this question with a word, a phrase, whatever comes to mind, right? So it is, if, um, Ali could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, they'd take on your advice, they'd implement it tomorrow.

Yeah.

What would you say to them, mate?

I would say the most important thing is— and again, I've said it before earlier— is be the master of your market. Yeah, be the master of your market and candidates will come to you, clients will come to you. There's no— there's no way you will not earn money.

I love it, mate. There you go. Great story, Ali.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me, mate. Cheers.