Amanda Brandenburg - Recruitment in the USA and how to approach business development.

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm really excited to be joined by Amanda Brandenburg, who is the founding principal of Opus Lex Partners. Amanda grew up and lives in the States. She entered the world of recruitment in 2007, um, where she joined the legal division of Robert Half. After this, she joined the Beacon Hill Staffing Group, where she worked for nearly a decade. and in both these organizations, Amanda accelerated her recruitment career by going from consultant all the way to division director and regional director. In 2018, Amanda founded her own recruitment practice, and for the last 3 years, she's been focused on growing that business, and they are on a mission to support the national legal sector by helping their customers create their very best body of work. Amanda, thank you for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Amazing. So where we always like to start on this show is the million-dollar question, which is, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

Well, that's the— that is the million-dollar question, right? And we could have an entire podcast serious about that. That's what we're here to do, I think. I think, you know, first of all, I think if we're talking about big billers and people who have staying power in this business, you know, first of all, most of the ones who I know, there's a scrappiness about them, right? They just have that fire in the belly whatever reason. And, you know, maybe they're competitive or, you know, maybe they have something to prove. Maybe they have a chip on their shoulder. Who knows what it is that drives them? But I think they all tend to be pretty scrappy in terms of the big billers. Now, I think, you know, some of the more intangibles, that I think, you know, really transcend this business, whether it's coaching other recruiters or recruiting candidates, is really understanding, you know, what motivates each individual, whether it's somebody, you know, you're mentoring or developing in your business or someone you were trying to recruit for a role. What are their motivators? And then in turn, really listening to them And having a pretty good sense of human psychology and maybe what might be coming down the pipe for objections or, you know, roadblocks that might be ahead. So I guess a high level of emotional intelligence.

Nice. Define scrappy to me. What— when you say scrappy, I'm curious, like what What, what do you mean? How would you paint a picture for me of someone that's— that you would maybe deem as a bit scrappy? And I know it would be different to each person maybe, but I'm interested.

Yeah, I mean, for me, I would consider myself scrappy in a lot of ways, and certainly more so probably towards, you know, different parts of my career. But, um, I think, you know, they just wake up every day with an itch that is never fully scratched, if I could create that picture. Um, there is a puzzle that they're constantly working on and it's never finished, and they are absolutely committed to, um, completing, you know, whatever, whatever challenge that is. But of course it never is complete.

Love that. So obviously what we're here to unpack is your, yeah, nearly 15 years in the staffing industry. Right. So obviously, as I mentioned in the introduction, nearly now for the last 3 years, you've been focused on building your own business. But let's just sort of start and touch on your time when working for other organizations. So I guess firstly, just interested, so The more I understand the nuances of the recruitment agency landscape in the US, what I sort of seem to continue to understand, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is that obviously sort of going into like corporate recruitment, so maybe in the sort of the lingo in the UK would be like internal recruitment, right? And that is like a brilliant position to be in, in terms of getting your medical stuff looked after, being on a really great salary, and these types of things. So typically in the UK, people will fall into the recruitment industry, and it's sort of part and parcel that you start on like a lower basic salary. But from the more I learn about the US market, that like for people— so I've had people on here that recruit, agency recruiters in the US, etc. That's like a real challenge because obviously you could go down the path where like your salary is way higher than it would be in agency recruitment, etc. So I guess where I just wanted to start was like, what was your journey into recruitment? And is that, is that a fair observation as I'm learning this, that actually if you went down the corporate recruitment route, there's a good chance that your salary would have been way higher than it was in agency recruitment? And how was, yeah, how was that for you?

Yeah, so I've never worked in internal recruitment or corporate recruitment, as you're referring to it. So that's nothing. That's something that's never interested me at all. I think, you know, really big agency recruiters are a completely different person generally than internal corporate recruiters. I think they're different skill sets, they have different personalities, and they're motivated by very different things. Um, so yeah, I mean, are the base salaries very different? Yeah, I think they're probably, you know, if you're an internal recruiter somewhere, the base salary is probably double of what it is as an agency recruiter. Um, but of course the, you know, runway or projections for your overall earnings are significantly different, of course, in an agency. So yeah, you certainly have to have an appetite for risk and an excitement around risk.

So how did, how did sort of Amanda in 2003, like obviously you, so from what I can see, you graduated in 2003 and you found yourself working for Robert Half in 2007. So I guess where I just wanted to start, I was just interested in like, how did Amanda come about working in recruitment? Like, how, is there a story there? How did you fall into it? Was it intentional? Like, what— how did you get into recruitment?

So yes, there's definitely a story there. It was not intentional. Fell into it, probably like most everyone else.

Yeah.

You on your podcast, I imagine. I don't think anyone, of course, sets out to be a recruiter in college, but it is interesting. So I studied English literature and philosophy in college, and, you know, unless you're going to enter academia, there's not really a whole lot, um, you know, on the outset that you're going to do with those skills. I think they're actually great skills that have served me well, but I always thought that I might want to go to law school. That was in the back of my mind. However, the summer before I graduated, I went out to Los Angeles and did an internship with a talent and literary agency. So placing— yeah, in Hollywood. So placing actors, writers, producers, directors and just absolutely fell in love with that business. And actually, the owner of that agency, I remember, said very clearly, you know, we're nothing more than an employment agency, right? And the product is just, you know, really exciting and, you know, sort of sexy. But at the end of the day, they are just placing, you know, these creatives in jobs. And so I love that business. And after graduation, went back out to Los Angeles and then entered an agent training program. Where I was for about 3 years in that system. And what I realized there was that a lot of the agents had law degrees. So again, kind of going back to that scrappy thing, what I learned from that is that they weren't splitting their commissions with— they weren't splitting their commissions at all with entertainment lawyers like many others were. So, you know, after I had been there for a few years and was a bit tired and In a great amount of debt as well, after living in Los Angeles on my own. And I thought, well, I'll go back home to Atlanta where I'm from and take the LSAT, the test required for law school here in the States, and apply to law school. But then my whole intention was to always go back to Los Angeles and reenter that business. So came here, did that, and worked at a couple of law firms while I was going through that process and just did not enjoy working at law firms at all. Um, you know, cliche story, ended up, you know, meeting a guy who had just graduated from law school here and did not want to move to Los Angeles. And, um, you know, one thing led to another, and then I, I just thought— everyone kept saying you should really look at a career in sales, and I didn't really— I never knew anyone who had a career in sales. I didn't know what those jobs meant, what sort of job that was. So I actually, my first job in sales was selling shoes and bags at Ferragamo. Oh wow.

What's Ferragamo?

Ferragamo is a luxury Italian retailer known for exquisite shoes and handbags. And so did that and did really well at it. And so sort of learned after doing that for a year that I did have the ability in terms of business development and human, basic human interaction to build that rapport. And, but of course, I was, you know, getting older. My husband was, or boyfriend at the time, was, you know, gainfully employed as a lawyer and was like, all right, when are you gonna get a real job here? So, and it was clear that I wasn't going back to Los Angeles at that point. And so I answered an ad, and again, I still had all of this this debt from LA that I really needed to kind of clear up before I got married. And so answered an ad with Robert Half looking for somebody with legal experience and sales experience. So somehow, some way, yeah, my wayward path led me to that spot. And really when I took that job, I thought, I'm going to do this maybe for a year and see if I can make some money and then I'll kind of regroup.

And here we are.

And here we are. Yeah.

Yeah. So love that. Great story. So I guess, I guess all I want to know from you then, and then what I'm keen to just sort of find out from you is, I guess, some of the sort of key learnings you've experienced in progressing, getting to director level, which a lot of recruiters aspire to, but always interested because I'm sure you would— I guess this would be part of the story that you would tell people maybe when hiring for your own business, but obviously very early on in your recruitment career can be probably the most difficult and challenging part of your career. There's so much to learn. You're maybe building out a patch, etc. So always interested to hear, like, what was your first year in recruitment like? Was it difficult? Did you find it quite easy actually because of the sort of story, the journey that you went on? Like, how would you describe your first year?

Well, let's see. So I think I started at Robert Half in June of 2007. Okay, perfect. Um, and you know, at that point the economy was really strong. Um, there was a lot of activity. And then of course in September 2008, um, you know, Lehman Brothers fell here and we started the Great Recession. So, um, that was a pretty interesting year in that same time span, I also at the time got engaged and then got married in that same year. And then I think maybe 3 or 4 months into working at Robert Half, they promoted me to division director, which was probably, you know, a terrible idea at the time for on their part. So, you know, I say that to say there was a lot to learn because I had no management experience whatsoever. I was new to this business. Now I'm supposed to hire, develop, lead, you know, and sometimes fire people. And I, I had no idea what I was doing. So it was— and then we were in a recession. Um, so it's an interesting year. I think it's important to point out that, you know, my time there and for probably the first 10 years of my career, I was exclusively a contract producer. So didn't really do any direct hire permanent placements. Which, you know, I think was an interesting place to be in, especially in the recession with so many people unemployed. It was very difficult, of course, to take those calls from candidates who had lost their jobs and were losing their homes. But it also was extremely rewarding when you could call someone and say, you know, I have you, I have a job for you. It starts tomorrow. You know, be ready and be there. And they were just elated that, you know, now they had some extra money to feed their kids. I mean, it was a really desperate situation at that point.

Yeah. So it seems like you were thrown completely in the deep end then, like a lot of people are early on in their recruitment career. So, okay, I'm fascinated by this. So ended up having to, yeah, manage, lead, produce yourself. As you said, thanks for sharing that context. So before you start your own recruitment business, Is that right? You've always been doing contract placements in law, is that right? Is what you end up doing for the majority of my time?

Yes. So, um, not necessarily exclusively, but most of my, you know, earlier experience is around contract producing and business development in the contracts attorney space specifically.

Contract attorney space. Okay, amazing. So what I'm interested to hear from you then, so from what I can see, work to Robert, half a year, nearly 2 and a half years, then you joined Beacon Hill Staffing Group. So I'm assuming by that point you're like, right, I'm really actually motivated to give recruitment a real go. And I'm assuming you felt like you could actually build something here that maybe, I guess, you didn't realize was an opportunity for you. And I guess I'm just keen to hear, so most recruiters that will listen to this podcast will be people that, yeah, have big aspirations, want to be the biggest producer within their business or want to get to that sort of director level. They want to progress. So I'm just always interested and I always ask this question like why, as I'm sure you know, recruitment's a competitive landscape, not only externally but also internally.

Yeah.

So why? Obviously it seems like a few different factors as to why you got that promotion in Robert Half, but I guess I'm interested at Beacon Hill because you worked there for a long period of time. Like, why, why do you think you was able to be the person that got the promotion opportunities over the people around you or the people next to you that most likely would have liked those opportunities as well of interest? What do you think you did differently?

That's a great question. I mean, I think when I was younger at Robert Half, I had a— I had two really fantastic leaders, Andy and Amy, if you're out there listening. But, you know, I never I was listening to some of your earlier episodes and talking about this question and how do people progress to these leadership roles. And some people seem to like really know that's what they want to do and they want to manage people. I've never really had an interest in managing people. I still don't know. I think I still don't have an interest in managing people even though I have my own company now, which is really quite ironic probably. But I didn't ask for any of those roles.

Interesting.

So yeah, so I think in the early days at Robert Half, I probably, I think my boss used to tell me there that I could probably outwork anyone. I maybe wasn't the smartest or I don't know, didn't have, maybe something that the next person had, but I had an extraordinary work ethic. And at that point too, I was younger, I was single. I have 3 children now, of course, so life is a little bit different, but I was really committed to it. And I think for me, I was sort of shocked as to the opportunity I had been given and the earning potential that was available to me. And, you know, to this day, you know, I have a life and a lifestyle that I never really would have planned on for myself or even really dreamed of. So I think I always just felt a tremendous sense of gratitude there and just worked really hard. And it was recognized. I took direction well. I was very engaged and interested in my job and how I could do better, how I could become a better manager, become a better biller. And the other thing I think is that I've always had, for better or worse, really close relationships with anyone I've worked with, and probably to a fault. My husband always says, you know, you don't need to be friends with everyone you work with, but I can't help it. So I think there was probably, you know, a natural internal politicking that happened, um, within those organizations because I, I always felt extremely close to everyone I worked with.

Yeah, look, I think that there's an important sort of takeaway there where like, yeah, it like, it is important to build relationships internally if you want to, yeah, progress and get the opportunities. I think that's, I think sometimes people can miss that, um, I think a lot of people can just put in the work and then expect it without maybe building those opportunities, building those relationships. But I guess it seems like then, did you end up obviously, yeah, all of those things, but was part of it that you were someone that did perform well? Like, was you typically a top producer? And obviously you hear all the time, may or may not have heard of it on this podcast, but it's really a really common thing that people talk about in the recruitment industry is that like top, top producers don't necessarily make top managers.

Yeah. And I was a top producer and I I, again, when I say that they made me the director, you know, 3 months in, I don't know that was a good decision on their part. I think I've certainly learned a lot about management and development and growing a team and mentoring a team, you know, over the past 15 years that I've been doing it. But I certainly, you know, didn't come into any of those roles with any true management experience training, you know, and it probably frankly wasn't fair to the people who worked for me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about that because I know there'll be a lot of people listening. I know that journey that you've been through and it seems like you're still on, like, is one that it can be really painful for people and they have to learn a lot of the things the hard way, right? So I guess what I'm talking about is what you're just saying there where like, yeah, you didn't have management experience, but you was a top performer, you was working hard. They probably thought Amanda could make it work. She'll, she'll make her team work and she'll work it out, etc. But I guess maybe what, what were the couple of things that you really had to learn the hard way, would you say, on that leadership path that if anyone listening to this is early on in that sort of billing, producing, but also now leading, managing, mentoring path that maybe you could give them that you had to learn the hard way out of interest?

Well, first of all, I want to say I think different companies have different cultures, obviously. And so within that, they have different goals and frameworks in which you can manage. I think some of these very large shops that are very revenue-driven, especially if they're a public company, they have a responsibility to their shareholders. You don't have a lot of flexibility in terms of how you manage. So there's that. So I've learned lots of different styles depending on the environment in which I found myself. But I think, you know, by and large, you have to actually care about the person you're working with and developing them. And you really need to want them to succeed in a genuine way. And they need to know that. They need to know that they have your back, or that you have their back, rather, and that they're your biggest cheerleader. And, and, you know, and then figure out what motivates them and then keep that in front of them every single day, that that's what they're working towards, and celebrate you know, catch them doing a great job, right? And celebrate it every single time. But, you know, my most successful teams, we had a really strong camaraderie. We were friends. Again, I don't, I don't know if that's a good thing or not, but we were. And I think the culture is so important. And I also think in the past 15 years, of course, you know, I can only speak for my own organization and those in which I've worked, but I think recruitment has probably evolved a lot from sort of the extremely intensive KPI-driven environment where we're all wearing suits and standing at whiteboards at 7:45 every morning to a much more, you know, I don't know, I should say just, you know, kinder experience maybe.

Yeah, sure.

So That's been really great to have that.

What about specific? I guess I'm just trying to get a bit granular here. Yeah, that comes up a lot. What you said, like really, like really understand your people's motivations. And once you actually really understand that, then that's— you can really use that. Like you said, put it in front of them every day. I really like the way that you put that. I guess a typical challenge that I always hear that people want advice on is How, what was Amanda's journey like when you had to produce, you had to hit certain numbers, but you was also responsible for the team's numbers as well. So there's this sort of, I guess, challenge of like manage your own performance, managing other people's performance, but you know, you have to support them, but then you might get frustrated because then your performance might dip. But what was your journey with that? Did you have to, I guess, get really good at communicating times where Amanda's got to be locked in and focused and not be distracted? I don't know, what was— just out of interest, was that a challenge that you faced?

Sure. I think in all those sort of billing manager roles, if you want to call them that, that's— there's always certainly a time management component. But I think to whatever extent, and maybe this is sort of easier on— I don't know, maybe I've just been lucky in terms of the situations that I've had, my particular clients or my, my particular book of business. To whatever extent You can involve those people in your goals. You are really accomplishing a lot, you know, at the same time, right? So, yeah, you're including them in everything that you're doing and you're making your goals their goals and vice versa. So, you know, you can be doing your job as a producer, but also mentoring them by example and, you know, not like putting people on the email, CC them. I mean, I think we have such a strange culture you know, within so many recruitment firms of just being overly protective or territorial about things. And I think that's absolutely the wrong way to go about it. So the sense that you can involve your team into the greater mission, whether it's, you know, company or office or your own book of business, but also mentor them and let them be a part of everything it is that you're doing. If you feel that you do a good job at it, of course, whether it's being on calls, coming to client meetings, copying them on emails, listening to their calls, and, you know, giving them feedback. I think you can incorporate a lot of that stuff, um, in the day-to-day.

Okay, nice. So I want to talk about your, your journey in building your own recruitment business. So I guess just to sort of tie this together, what— so for people listening there early on in their recruitment career, the question I have for you to sort of try and get you to share, I guess, advice to those types of people. If you could go back and sort of speak to Amanda in 2007, knowing what you know now, what advice would you give her, do you think, to sort of, that you think would give her an even better chance of maximizing the opportunity and career sort of opportunity that she was about to embark on? What would you say to her, do you think?

It's a great question. Um, I think I would say to myself that, you know, you're just as good as anyone else here. Um, and there are so many different styles and personalities that I think, you know, in many environments we kind of only allow for one, which tends to be, you know, loud and maybe a bit abrasive and, you know, is something that you're very interested in, you know, maybe stereotypically very male. So I think letting myself be myself truly is something that I would certainly say. And I think the other advice that I give to recruiters just starting out is, you know, half of this is staying in the game every day, year after year. Um, you know, I know some recruiters who I've worked with over the years who, you know, by and large are, you know, maybe average to above average recruiters probably, but they've been in it for, you know, 20 years and they— the staying power is, you know, hugely impactful after a number of years and they're making a great living and people like them, they have great clients and they enjoy what they do. So there's a lot to this. Exactly. And you have to do that every day, you know, week after week, month after month, year after year.

But it's a compound effect indeed. I think that's— yeah. Okay, so let's, let's sort of switch this up again then. So started your own recruitment business 2018. So just to sort of paint a picture, um, one, is that a business that you started by yourself? Yes. Wasn't co-founded, cool. And then just to paint the picture where you are now and then we'll sort of unpack it. From what I gathered, two things that I noticed. So are you a business that's under 10 heads?

Yes.

I think I saw online. Amazing. And what I also saw, which I found interesting, is you're an all-women business as well.

We are. Yes. I don't know that we will stay that way forever, but currently we are.

Yeah, I just found that interesting.

Yeah.

How many of you are there?

5 of us.

5 of you, awesome. Okay. And yeah, so obviously coming up towards, going towards your like 3 years in business basically. And then did you, in terms of the markets and the world that you sort of recruit support, is it then sort of still the law world obviously, but have you then transitioned to do more permanent hires or is it still contracts or is it both?

It's both. Um, and I think I would tell anyone who's interested in starting a business or looking at their business, there is a lot of value in having both. Um, yeah, having done this now for a couple of decades, you see markets ebb and flow, and you see the unemployment rate go up, which is when it's really great to have a contract business, and you see it go down, which is when it's really great to have a perm business. So to be able to have that flexibility really gives you a lot of options and a lot more financial stability.

Okay, so talk to me about— and I always sort of frame out this because I think it's true, but like, so— and I'm sure so many people in your time when you was employed would have said to you, ah, like, I know one day I'll start my own recruitment practice. Like, I'm making all this money for Robert Half or whatever. Like, imagine if I was making that for myself. So like, talk to me about like how— why was Amanda able to take that first step that so many people don't? Like, what gave you the confidence?

People said that to me for years. They asked me that question, would you ever go out on your own? And my answer was always a hard no.

Okay, what changed then?

So I, um, when I left Robert Half again, I was recruited away during the recession to open an office for Beacon Hill. And so I had the experience of building something, building a brand, building a team. And after nearly a decade, it was built and it functioned really well. And I personally just felt that there wasn't much left for me in terms of satisfying my own internal or intellectual curiosity and really wanted to go build something else. And the proposition of just continuing to open, you know, offices for somebody else and put, put a team there did not really excite me, um, at the point of time I was there in my life. So, you know, I wanted to own something that was mine. I wanted to make my own rules, establish my own culture, create my own brand. And I— in, in its exceedingly difficult. It was exceedingly difficult to start. It's probably even harder, you know, day to day now that it's like up and running and profitable. So like you have even bigger challenges to manage. But I really needed that, you know, at the point of life I was in to remain engaged and excited about what I was doing every day.

That makes sense. So did you have children at this point when you started the business?

Oh, yes. Yes. So, back to Beacon Hill, when I opened that office, I was pregnant, newly pregnant with my first child. So, I have had children for most of my recruiting career at this point. My oldest child is 11, my youngest child, there are 3 of them, my youngest child is 5. So, yes, all of my children at this point were born and are used to this lifestyle and this business.

Love that. Talk to me about— so people are interested in like what, I guess, what has— what have been some of the sort of most difficult challenges so far that you didn't expect out of interest in having your own shop or starting your own recruitment business?

I think for me, and I'm sure this is probably different for a lot of people, for— but for me it's making like the day-to-day decisions and all the things that you need to think about, right? Like whether it's marketing or your social media, or is it time to hire right now? Do you want an office? Um, are we going to work in, you know, this market or another? And, you know, being small, I always say this too, it really prioritizes or it forces you to prioritize your job orders and what you're going to work on, which I actually love because you have to be so rigid and so strict about the business that you take and the business that you spend time working on. But it's a constant reprioritization of sort of what's coming in, what you're pushing out, and just managing really day to day, which is completely different from managing relatively on autopilot with a $500 million or multi-billion dollar in the case of Robert Half established organization where you have a framework because Every day here, we are literally creating the framework. And you kind of, you know, if you're like me and you're very analytical and you really want to get it right, you're constantly questioning yourself. Is this right? Is this the best path? You know, my— because it's very— it's a lonely experience. And there aren't a lot of other people that you can really look to who've done this.

Sure. So I want to get sort of practical with you, if that's okay.

Sure.

Get a bit in the detail. So obviously what I'm keen, just because you said it's something that you love, and speaking to a lot of recruiters at the moment who will tell you that they're really busy, they have loads of job orders on, but one of their biggest challenges is what you're just talking about there, prioritisation. Like, should I, should I definitely work on this job or should I definitely work on that job? So I guess I know there's again nuances here, but if I say to you, What criteria do you sort of work to, or are you continuing to build, or what are your non-negotiables when it comes to, right, I'm going to definitely work on this job order because of this or because of X, that's going to make me feel good about spending 2 hours or 4 hours this week on sourcing that job. And I feel like I'm going to have a much better chance of filling that job and getting what I need to out of that compared to the other job. Interested in what your criteria looks like.

Sure. So, does that make sense? It does. And it's a question that I've been asked several times. So, first of all, we wanna work for people we like, and I know that sounds like really basic and maybe somewhat abstract, but I promise you, you will do a better job. You will have more excited energy around, you know, recruiting and sourcing for orders where the hiring manager, your end client, is someone you like and someone you feel you need to deliver for. Um, you know, at least for me and my team, that will kind of get us up every day because we know that person is counting on us. So that's important. If, you know, you're just dredging through and working on order for, you know, an organization that you're not excited about, or, you know, you know, the roles like going to turn over or it's going to be really difficult for that candidate. It's just harder. So I think in the, in ranking them, liking the enclient is actually really important. You know, two, what's the client's value proposition? What's their standing in the marketplace? Do they have a strong reputation? Do they have some challenges that need to be addressed? And, you know, that's not necessarily a deal breaker. And I think if you have a recruiter who is a true business partner, an ally for your organization, um, you know, they can overcome a lot of those, you know, if you have challenges around reputation or brand or anything like that, they can do that for you and really speak to your specific department as a hiring manager. So there's that. Also, too, are the client's expectations realistic with, with what's going on in the marketplace right now, or are they as we love to say in recruiting, looking for the purple squirrel or the unicorn, right? Like otherwise, like, don't you know, are there compensation allowances aligned with what the market is bearing? And, you know, in terms of the skill set, are they realistic here? And then, you know, finally, to be selfish, but again, this goes back to your internal culture motivation, also just the ins and outs of running a small business. What are the payment terms? Are you engaged? Are you retained? Are you contingent? And if so, when are you going to get paid? Because while I would like to say that it doesn't really matter, it matters immensely when you're financing the whole thing.

Yeah, sure. No, I think it also—

Yeah, but I think also too, when you have fair payment terms, the relationship just works better and you feel more valued as a business partner and I think you're also usually dealing with a more educated consumer at that point when you are working with clients who have favorable payment terms. So that's always important in other areas.

So talk, okay, great. So talk to me about what has been the most effective way for Amanda to win business? And we can keep it recent, last 6, 12 months, like obviously, yeah, spoken about producing a lot of the time, we just said about Yeah, really love prioritizing these things, but like what has enabled you to always have the best chance of winning clients, working with clients that you'd like? Like what's been your most effective new business strategy out of interest?

Well, I will say I don't think I'm, you know, I'm probably not the person to ask about the last 6 or 12 months because we just have a lot of, you know, over a couple of decades you have a book of business and you have clients and a reputation. So I have a lot of incoming passive business that comes through. I'm not out there making cold calls generally anymore. But, you know, I think, I think generally speaking, you know, you have to kind of think outside the box and really, really think about who you're going to connect with. So for example, the biggest client that I've ever won, this was a contract client and they were my client for over a decade and produced millions and millions of dollars in revenue, um, for the agency I worked for then, you know, that was me calling on an ad by another agency, um, that just looked a little suspicious and a little interesting to me and doing a little bit of research and calling around and using the connections I had in that organization. It happened to be one person I had met at a conference 5 months earlier. And asking really good questions and then getting to that person. But once I got to the decision maker, and I think there's actually a lot to learn from this, the story, which is why I'm spending time telling you the story, um, you know, it wasn't like, yeah, sure, here's our, you know, wad of business, carry on. It was, here is my most challenging, you know, job order right now or project that the other agency is not not doing a good job with. I'm not going to give you the easy stuff. I'm going to give you basically the crap work, and you need to take that crap work and like knock it out of the park and then ask for more. You know, keep doing the crap work as long as you need to, and then, you know, you will absolutely earn the right to ask for the good, easier work. So that's a good lesson. But aside from that, and that relationship and other relationships I've had, I remember Going back to Robert Half, when I was, had my director there, I, we would, you know, make the call. It was like a very rigid process, right? Like you made the call, you sent a letter, this is antiquated. You maybe wrote like a handwritten note. And then it was like you had the meeting at, at the client's place of work. And I would like do all that and I'd say, okay, now what? And, um, it, most, most recruiters, especially junior recruiters, aren't able to think about forming the bigger relationship. And so the next step was actually to befriend that client, like stop looking for the business and actually form a real relationship with the person and learn more about them and stop asking for the business. Just be with them, understand who they are, what's challenging them in their day-to-day. And again, back to showing up, keep showing up, but you've got to kind of change the script a little bit from sell, sell, sell, Sell, sell, sell, get the business. If that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. What do we need to change it to? Relationship, relationship, relationship.

Relationship, relationship, relationship. Right. You have to build a friendship and a bond. And for people who are doing this for the long haul, that will sustain you. Most of my best clients are some of my best friends in life as well now. And of course they started out as clients and they're lifelong friends who know about my family, my kids, everything that's going on. And they want to support me because they care about me as a human being and vice versa.

Yeah, fair enough. I like that. I know, again, it's a long game and sometimes it can be quite hard to sort of see that when you're sort of building out your desk, building out your market. But it's the relationships, it's doing these things, keep showing up every day that will pay dividends later down the track. And it seems like you've really benefited from that when building your own business because you had this yeah, all these relationships that you built up that you can lean on and these things. So I guess talk to me about what's your journey been like in hiring for your own recruitment business then? Like, what mistakes have you made? Have you found it difficult? What's that been like, out of interest?

I think it's very difficult, um, to know when to hire, um, who to hire, where, in what capacity, um, because again, when you're when you're forming a startup, you're, you know, this is not a large conglomerate. So you also don't have all the other things. So, you know, whereas maybe you were used to having a marketing department or an HR department or an administrative assistant, and you really, as a billing manager, only hired recruiters. Well, now you only have a certain number of resources to work with, dollars in my case, and Um, you know, you have to figure out what is going to have the biggest impact on the business right now with the resources that you have available. And it's not always necessarily hiring more recruiters. And then if you do hire more recruiters, then it's, are you hiring someone with a book of business? Um, and does that create a new problem, so to speak? So if you bring somebody in with a lot of business who's used to developing business, but maybe, you know, is also accustomed to having people source for them, Do you need to turn around and then hire another sourcer? So maybe now you're hiring 2 people. Are you training people from the start? And what does that look like? So, you know, that has been extremely challenging for me just in my own head. Having said all of that, we have a fantastic team here that's been together, you know, for most of these 3 years and they have come to us with a variety of backgrounds and experience levels and motivations for their own life and, you know, different reasons for doing this. So I think one thing that I've learned just over the years and something that I'm really proud of for our agency is that we're not just one size fits all. We're not hiring, you know, like, this is the salesperson, this is the, this is the mode, this is the profile, and that's it. We're really looking at the organization for a more holistic approach, hiring people with different strengths, different styles. And with each hire that we make, it's not like, is this person in a vacuum, you know, exceptional, and do we want them? It's how do they fit into our existing organization? And will that benefit our, our delicate and tiny ecosystem? Or disrupt it in some way.

Have you got any better at recognising hiring triggers at all? Because you are very much like working out as you go on. Like, did you say to yourself, right, I'm going to get 6 to 12 months worth of revenue in the bank, or if I was to hire someone, they'd be covered for at least 6 months? Like, how have you ended up— you said that you like analytics and stuff like that. Have you ended up— I don't know. I know you're still on the journey, but out of interest, have you got better at going, right, so if we if we're in and around here, if we've got this amount of job orders, like our sort of interview-to-placement ratio is around this, then we should hopefully be in a good spot to hire. It'd be a good time to bring someone on to deliver. I don't know, have you got any better at that, of interest?

Yeah, I think, you know, like really quickly when you need to hire. We're in that spot now that we absolutely need to hire. So if anyone's interested—

Why is that then? Is it because you're— Is that because you're what, you have a lot of opportunities, like good quality jobs that you like, you know, that you could deliver? Is that what it is?

Exactly. So there is a lot of opportunity that we're currently missing because we just don't have the bandwidth to support it at the level that I wish we could. We need more, you know, eyes on the market and more phones being dialed outbound for recruiting purposes to candidates. So that's our current situation. And in terms of like knowing when, um, you know, this is a roller coaster. And for anyone who's considering starting their own business and actually growing a business, not just, you know, being a solo recruiter and having a lifestyle business, but really developing a true agency with that goal in mind, I mean, it's hard. It's, it's hard to figure out a way to finance it. Um, recruitment is not, um, an industry that banks, um, are really big fans of, especially as startups. So you do have to, or at least in my case, you kind of have to bootstrap it and make it work. So it's a roller coaster in terms of revenue and timing. And if you're like me, I'm very conservative and I want to like, you know, squeak it out until the last minute, until it's very apparent that we are, you know, walking away from revenue, which is where we are now. But I think a lot of people are probably in that situation since we're, um, all so busy right now.

Okay, so before we finish, I just want to get your honest thoughts on a couple of things. So what I wanted to ask you was, I think I mentioned this to you when we last spoke, but, um, I would say most progressive recruitment businesses pre-COVID had sort of US on their business plan. And I think that's definitely shifted again in the last sort of 6 to 12 months, or businesses have really recognized the positives that come with like diversifying their business and not just only doing business in the UK, etc. So I guess I just wanted your honest thoughts, and you may be able to add context on this or not, but like, where do you think us Brits need to like really understand around the sort of US market, the nuances of doing business in the US from a recruitment perspective that, um, you think will give us a better chance of being successful? Is my question. Does that make sense?

That's a great question. It does make sense. Um, I don't know if I'm the best person to answer that, but I think at its core. Americans are very different, I have learned, in terms of our— I think I told you I'm part of a sort of a mastermind group, and most of the members in that group are in the UK, and they're so polite, and they raise their hands and wait you know, wait for someone to call their name before they speak and all these things. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like we got to just talk, just get it out. So I think there are probably a lot of like stylistic nuances there that, you know, Americans are much more direct and probably a bit louder and full of personality. So you could probably have, again, a whole show just on that, how that fleshes out and in recruitment agencies in the workplace.

Fair enough. Okay. Um, and then I guess the other question I had for you, something that I continue to learn, is that in the UK, the recruitment industry doesn't have the best reputation at all. But what a lot of people share when they go start recruiting in the US is that it's actually seen as more of a professional profession and it's got more respect and these things. Why, why do you think that is from your opinion? Like, out of interest?

Uh, I have no idea. I didn't know it was seen as—

oh really?

A respectful, respectable profession in the US. Um, that's good to know. Uh, I'm not sure so much how it's structured in the UK in terms of, you know, differences there. I think, you know, for any professional respect that I do have, um, at least speaking for me and those in legal recruiting, it's because we are highly specialized and we are respected as You know, members of the community, of the legal community or, um, the law firm community, or just being a part of that vertical. Um, and you know, we talk to and work with really smart people all day who, um, all have law degrees and, you know, are well-established and respected in their careers. So I think we enjoy some of that, um, prestige, I suppose, but I don't think my kids or, you know, my, or anyone is like, oh my gosh, my mom's a recruiter. It's like, it's So amazing.

Yeah, but like, for example, if you were to go to a party and like, would you be embarrassed to say I'm a recruiter?

I usually say it probably a little different, but no. Look, I, you know, it's interesting. Well, look, I'll tell you this in my family. So, you know, my, my son, I'm an only child, but, you know, my husband, my husband's family, I'm the only person without a graduate degree. I have a bachelor's degree from a state university. But I would say my family and my children and myself, we have the same or better lifestyles than many people who have taken different paths. That are far more academically intensive or expensive.

So I just think because in the UK, like, people sometimes would be embarrassed to say that they're a recruiter and like, or it gets like an instant response of, oh God, like one of that. So like, I was just interested in, it is something that a lot of UK recruiters pick up on. But I think it comes back to your point earlier on, on when people like your own husband said you should go into a sales career like that, you wouldn't normally hear that in the UK. I feel like that might be— I think it is changing, but I think like a sales career isn't like— people just hate to be sold to in the UK. Like they just like— so like sales as a career, really? Like that's an actual career? So like the fact that someone really close to you was encouraging that, I just feel like that is an interesting nuance, I think. That's different that I do hear a lot?

Well, I mean, isn't that sort of the core of, you know, America and the United States, that we're all here to— you know, we were a scrappy country, right? Yeah, at our core, from, you know, from the, uh, story of origin here. So yeah, yeah, I think we're all out for the American dream and we're all here to build something. And yeah, you're right. I mean, I, I think at this point in my career, I'm very proud of my career and I'm very proud to go into any party and say I own a legal recruiting firm. I'm excited. What I have built, what I've done in my career has not been easy and I'm exceedingly proud of it. But I certainly understand and take your point there.

Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about— and I feel like I'm just trying to get information out of you here, so I hope you don't mind. But like, I'm just interested to hear like your perspective on things basically, which is why I'm asking these questions. I think it can hopefully— yeah, obviously the things that I'm saying, you're surprised and I'm finding interest in what you're saying, but Obviously America is so big, right? So I guess from your point of view, and I know this is again nuanced to like the legal world, but like just interested to hear like what states do you think like are really exciting or are like, like typically you would hear UK people are going to be recruiting in New York or it might be obviously LA previously, etc. But I'm definitely hearing more and more people talk about Atlanta for sure as a really sort of big growth area for different sectors. Hearing about Texas, Austin, Texas is another big area, Dallas, etc. So I was just curious to hear from like your point of view, where do you think some of the sort of exciting growth opportunities are in different states that maybe some UK-based people may not typically think of? Out of curiosity.

Well, I think when you're evaluating any market, whether it's the States or otherwise, you have to balance demand and opportunity with competition. So whereas you can go to New York, there are going to be more jobs available for you to work on. The salaries are going to be higher there, of course, in terms of your fee at the end of the day. But the competition in terms of the number of recruiters who are calling into those firms are, you know, is fierce. If you go to a secondary, you know, I've always lived in Atlanta, so I certainly know the Atlanta market very well. But, you know, even out, even Atlanta is pretty established and a pretty large market at this point, but you go to a, you know, more secondary or tertiary market, you're gonna have a lot less competition. Um, and, you know, you might do very well, um, in some of those smaller markets. But yes, I think Austin, of course, and their tech scene is amazing, what they have going on. So I think that's a huge opportunity. Um, I have always been a really big fan of Houston, Texas, um, and found it to be very exciting. You, um, You know, again, maybe a little less crowded in the Northeast, but Northeast money as well. So a bit different there. Um, and I'm sure there are certainly, you know, outside of Los Angeles and San Francisco, there's still probably a lot of opportunity happening in California. But I would encourage anyone to, you know, consider things from a more regional and national perspective rather than just, you know, one standalone market, especially right now with remote work, um, and people being so mobile, I'm very interested to see how recruiting firms structure territories going forward, um, because I, I think our candidate base is, is highly opened up a lot more.

Yeah, because like whenever I speak also, like, it was something that I've learned is that American people, it's like way more normal to like commute quite a long way. Is that a thing? Well, yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, so like, oh yeah, an hour and a half, that's like, that's like a casual commute or something like that. But like in the UK, that would be like horrible.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't commute an hour and a half personally, but like you said, the remote piece has really opened it up because—

yeah, so interesting.

Yeah, and I, you know, too, with the way hiring managers are going to be structured as well, I think going forward— I was just on the phone before I jumped on with you with someone who manages a team in India and, you know, now does it from his house in Atlanta and manages folks in the UK as well. So I think your hiring managers are also going to be be very mobile. So, um, just like with us, we might have a client who sits in Atlanta or sits in Florida, but they manage, you know, something for their firm nationally or regionally. And so that takes us to a variety of states and cities working for them.

So I've got a couple of quickfire questions for you. Okay, we finish. So first question is, what do you think is the most important action or KPI that you feel contributes to a recruiter's success?

That's a great question. I think probably— God, I hate using this word, but to pay homage to Robert Half, I should say connects, right? And that was defined by Yeah, actually, like, okay, it was defined as a live phone call or, you know, as time went on, an email exchange. I, I'm old school. I still think if you really want to get to know someone, you need to get on the phone with them or go meet them in person. You know, now, of course, we have online platforms like this, so I think that's really helpful over time. But I, you know, for the junior recruiters out there listening, you're not going to build a brand or reputation year after year by emailing people or doing like automated LinkedIn campaigns. It's a tool, but it's not the way to do this business.

Yeah. Okay, nice. What book have you read? If you don't read, it could be audiobook, podcast, whatever that have you read or, yeah, consumed that has had the biggest impact on you?

Oh my gosh.

Um, it could be personal or professional.

Okay, this is really hard.

Do you read?

I do. I was an English major, so—

Oh yeah, sorry.

I did nothing but read in college. Yeah, but I— Yeah, it's like choosing my favorite song or my favorite movie or my favorite band. I'm never good at it because I like so many. But okay, I'll give you a really weird one here, and this is like no one's probably ever, ever answered this.

That's okay.

Um, but I read a lot of, uh, William Faulkner in college. Um, and if anyone's ever read Faulkner, you probably know how challenging it is and, um, just what a, like, a mind trip that is. So As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner.

Okay, interesting. That's just like—

just go Google and like, you'll just, just take us, you know, find like a page.

Yeah, so it's just like just questioning life and why we're here and stuff like that.

Well, more or less, but I think also just the art form of writing and sort of back to talking about, you know, studying English. I know, and back as it relates to recruitment, the ability to communicate effectively, you know, ever in spoken word or especially now in written word is extremely powerful. So certainly enhance your writing skills. In any way that you can.

Right, I've got 2 questions for you. Okay, I'll let you go. This one's a bit more, bit more playful, a bit more different, but like, what, what did you spend your first biggest commission paycheck on?

Okay, um, first biggest— well, for the first several years, I really just, I paid off all my credit cards. Yeah, I got rid of my debt. And then I had a baby. Well, I'll say this. In 2009, so about a year and a half after I started at Robert Half, I bought a house and I was pregnant with my first child and bought a house. But to fast forward to now, I recently, I've bought an a vacation property that I was really proud to buy and really excited to do that, which is also an investment property. And, um, you know, I just made a large placement several weeks ago, and I've decided that I'm buying a boat.

Love that. Absolutely love that. So final question is, what is the ultimate goal for your recruitment career or recruitment business?

Sure. Um, you know, I want to do this for as long as I'm happy doing this, and so far I haven't had too many days where I'm not happy doing this, so I'm not sure where the end of that road is. Um, we do certainly want to grow, but not just for growth's sake.

Sure.

So I think our ultimate goal— my goal is to build this brand but have it be truly authentic, and for people to know the people who who are here and know what they're about and let that become as big as it possibly can in a true and authentic way.

Love it. Amanda, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for being so open and honest and really excited to share this with everyone and also excited to see how the business grows. And you're going to have to make sure you get a picture of the old boat on LinkedIn when you get that. But thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.