Amy Steel - From graduate to director, how she climbed the ranks in under 6 years to board level!

Right. Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Amy Steele. Amy works for the global recruitment business Amore Bond and is an associate director within the group. She runs the UK engineering contract team. Amy has worked her way up the ranks to this position within 9 years and now manages a team of 8 and is the youngest director across the group and achieved director status in record time within 6 years. Amy, thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you for having me, it's great to be here.

Really looking forward to this one. As we've been chatting, always keen to get more and more female leaders like you in recruitment sharing your story. So, um, look, where I always like to start on this podcast is how you got into recruitment. So just for context, have you only worked for Amore Bond in the recruitment world? Yeah? Okay, cool. So yeah, so 9 years in October, you said, right? Okay, cool. So let's just start with how did Amy end up working for Amore Bond?

Okay, yeah, so I mean, this is the only company I've ever worked for. So graduated in 2011, I did a degree in American Studies and History, so nothing related to the sector at all. And, you know, being completely honest, I'd be lying if I told you I always wanted to go into recruitment as well, because I didn't even know what it was when I graduated. But I knew I'd probably go into some sort of sales because I was always really, like, money-driven. And when I did graduate, I never wanted to go down the route of, like, being a teacher or anything like that, which generally history lends itself to. But I just knew I wanted to earn money. Didn't know what I wanted to do, just knew I wanted to have a certain lifestyle. So, spoke to my dad about it. He works in business, so he's got a pretty, pretty commercially savvy, he's in this world, and said, you know, I really don't know what I want to do, but I want to earn money. And he was like, you should go into sales, it'll toughen you up, it'll give you a really good grounding. So, applied for some jobs online, thought they were sales roles, and everyone that was getting back in touch with me were recruitment businesses. So that's when it came onto my radar. So I interviewed with a number of different companies in and around the Manchester area. But yeah, Omoria Bond just really stood out to me. I don't know what it was, there's just something about it. I just got this feeling when I went there. I just thought I can definitely see myself in this company. I think I just loved the values. I loved how competitive it was and just got a great feel for the place and then joined. And I probably didn't really know what recruitment was for a few months after that either. Really? Just threw myself into it and just adapted as I went. Yeah, my first real job, if you like, was the trainee recruitment consultant at Amore Bond. And yeah, I've been there ever since.

That's so interesting. So how old was you when you joined there?

22.

Okay, that's so interesting.

Now you're giving my age away.

Sorry, sorry. Okay, just really quickly. Obviously, I've been to the Amore Bond offices, but like, what did the Amore Bond— because I'm sure, I'd be confident quite a few people know the Amore Bond brand if they're up in Manchester or whatever. It's a big employer in terms of in the recruitment space. Up in Manchester. What was the business like when you joined? Like, where was it in its journey?

Very different to how it is now. So, the Amore Bond was established in 2006, so yeah, about 5 years after its inception. We had the Manchester office, which is the office that we're in now, but we just had one floor and there must have been maximum 20 people in there, including sales and back office staff. And we'd recently opened our Amsterdam office at that point as well, and I think there's about 10 people over in Amsterdam. So a very, very different company to what it is is now. The values are the same, the principles are the same, the markets are the same, but just on a much smaller scale. Now we've got pretty much like half the building that we're in is Amoreabond. We're actually moving to new offices in, well, towards the end of the year to an even bigger space because we've outgrown it. And obviously we've now got the office in Cologne and an office in Singapore as well. So when I joined, I'd say total staff was maybe around the 40, 45 mark. Now it's more like 120, 125, something like that. And that's post-COVID as well, so obviously there's been a few changes recently.

So, sure. Okay, so what was the environment like then? What did you— early on? So I'm always interested in the first couple of years, like what did Amy do to ensure that you didn't sort of get chewed up and spat out from recruitment, which happens to a lot of grads, right?

Yeah, sure, no, definitely. I think, you know, the environment early on was very structured like it is now. You know, we do business development in the morning, we resource and find candidates in the afternoon. We're a very KPI-driven company. We still are now. We're far more advanced now from a business intelligence perspective than we were back then, but we've always been really, really KPI and CSF commercially driven. So I think for me, it was just a case of, you know, as a person, I'm pretty resilient. I am used to being challenged, you know, because of my background I've always been involved in sports at a pretty high competitive level. I just applied the same mindset and principles to the job. I just did what I was told every day, hit my targets every day, and just worked really, really hard. So there was definitely times where I found it difficult and times where I thought I could give up here, but it's just not really in my nature. And I think from like a social perspective, I settled in really well and I made friends quite quickly. And I think going to work around friends every day is definitely something that can keep you, keep you there and keep you engaged with the business. Because we were smaller as well, there were people at different levels of the business that I became quite close to because back then there was literally, I was the third female in the office.

Third female, okay.

Third, yeah, it's obviously very, very, we're a lot more 50/50 now, but at the time it was a very male-driven office. So I became friends with two of the girls there, both of them quite senior in the business. So they were great role models for me. I could see the money they were earning, the success that they'd had so far. They were similar age to me, they'd just not done the university bit. So I could see where I could be in a couple of years if I, you know—

What made them good role models?

Just really great. One was really great on process, did things by the book, and the other was a great business developer. And I think, you know, I had sort of envisioned how I wanted my life to be in terms of earnings and what I would have, and they were living that already. So that was like pretty inspiring for me.

That's interesting. And just a real quick one on that, like, did you just go over and speak to them? Did you just go over and ask for help? Because I know it sounds really simple and basic and you strike me as someone that probably just did that naturally. But I think a lot of people, some of the sort of interesting insights that come from this is that some people aren't willing or don't want to look stupid and go and ask a top performer next to them, say, how did you do that? Or what are you doing differently?

So, I'm actually terrible at asking for help.

Really?

Yeah, absolutely terrible. I tell people the opposite all the time. I'm like, make sure you ask for help, but I'm really, really bad at it. So, I think the thing that's great about Amore Bond is we have a really robust training program, and when you're a senior consultant in the business, part of that job, even if you're not managing people, is to still mentor and help people. So, when you join, you have people coming to you like, can I help you with this? How are you getting on with this? How's your day been? You know, not just your manager, but your peers As well, and that's very much the case now, but it was back then. So I wouldn't say necessarily I asked, but I got approached. But what I would say is, in hindsight now, I should have asked more questions, definitely, because that's something I'm not great at in general. Interesting. When it comes to myself.

How— and last thing, because I think again this is a really interesting insight— like, how important do you think it is for recruiters early on in their career to actually really make sure and focus on building internal relationships?

I think it's so important, really, really important. If you're having a really bad day, which let's be honest happens, I think the one thing that can help with that and cheer you up there and then is the people that you're working with. Recruitment's long hours, right? We all know that. There's no real getting around that. That's just a fact, especially in the earlier days. Although actually, I think I work longer now than I did then. But, you know, you spend so much time with these people. So if you're not properly embedded into that business, forming relationships, you've not got that support network, I think it would make the job even harder. So yeah, anyone who's joining a business, throw yourself into it. If it means pushing yourself out of your comfort zone to get to know people or socialize a bit more, I would say do it because I think that's a huge part of it. And back to your question before about how did I not get chewed up and spat out? Well, I joined at the end of October. Fast forward a month or two, it's Christmas, we have so many social events going on, the Christmas party, I got taken to Amsterdam, you know, loads of events, lunch clubs, things like that, and I just, I was so immersed in the culture that it would have been impossible for me to fail by that point because I just loved it so much.

Yeah, interesting. Okay, so just the final bit for context then, so you've always worked in contract recruitment, right? And obviously as I introduced you, I said engineering, but you've Have you worked across a few different disciplines in the last—

Yeah, so I originally started as a recruiter for contract design engineers. That was the market I was brought in to do, and I naturally sort of moved a bit into automotive. So automotive, people will know if they've worked in the sector, just absolutely kicked off in around about like 2013-14. So my market went from design, I picked up an automotive client, and I didn't just fill the design roles. I started filling like project engineers, quality engineers, things like that, and developed that account and then just naturally started developing automotive as a bit of a marketplace, which sort of went against the grain. As a business, we're very much focused on disciplines, not sectors. But because we were much smaller back then, we had a lot more free rein than we do now. I was able to just sort of carve that into a bit of a market. And then when I added to my team, I would then give people a discipline within that sector. So I moved primarily into projects. By the sort of last few years of my career, I was literally just placing project managers within like a 10-mile radius of Coventry. Didn't really deviate, you know, didn't really deviate beyond that. I didn't need to. Like, I knew everybody, all the clients knew me, I pretty much worked with everybody. So I was able to carve out that niche. But as the team's grown, we've had to spread the risk more. Obviously, the automotive industry has really started to decline, not just recently, over the last couple of years. So as the team got bigger, strategically, I needed to diversify to create new markets, but also to spread the risk from a sector over to other sectors. So we now cover design, projects, quality, manufacturing, pretty much the full project lifecycle across all STEM engineering sectors. So automotive, aerospace, defense, rail, power and energy, nuclear. It's quite varied. Yeah.

Cool. Got it. Right. So, and then just the final bit, sorry, just for people listening. So up until 2017, you was always billing, right? And then for the last, obviously, couple of years, you've been hands-off and really had to then learn this leadership role where Amy's not actively billing, right? Okay. So first bit, how did the first couple of years go in terms of Amy getting to grips with how to be a good contract biller? Like, how did you do in the first couple of years?

Yeah, so, um, I got off to a pretty quick start actually, um, I completely by accident, not by skill, landed on a client and they didn't just need one person, they needed several. So made a couple of early placements and my first year was good. I got promoted to consultant pretty quickly, I think it was in my fifth month. But then things started to go a little bit wrong for me actually. My second year was a bit of a disaster and I basically just I had so many dropouts. And what I was doing is I just listened to what I wanted to hear rather than what people were actually telling me. So, you know the phrase like square peg, round hole? Like, that was the story of my life in my second year. And I got really frustrated. I used to just blame the market. I'm like, it's the automotive market, it's too busy. Like, you can't control candidates. Actually, I was just trying to force things. So, my first year was great. My second year, things started to stall. But once I took a step back and was like, I'm not achieving what I want here. Rather than blaming the market. Like, I need to look at myself. And I just got really passionate about becoming the best recruiter I possibly could be. I just hired somebody to mentor them. I'd just become a senior consultant after about, I think it was about 15 or 16 months. And I realized I had to really lead by example. And by mentoring that person, it made me become better at the job. And I just became really, really process-driven, really tight with everything I was doing from a candidate management perspective. The key thing for me though is I got really, really passionate about business development at that point. So I decided I wanted to have more clients than anyone else. I'm a very competitive person. We constantly review performance and who's doing what. I was like, yeah, I want to have more clients than anyone. So I went on a bit of a rampage towards the back end of my second year on just winning business and winning clients. And that was the real turning point for me, I think, was my third year because I went into the year on around about £5,000 or £6,000 running weekly GP. And it was in my third year that I had done all the hard work, really got all these clients on board, and that's when it really took off for me. And I pretty much doubled my weekly GP the following 6 months while starting to build a team at the same time. Okay. But definitely lessons learned in second year.

Yeah, well, what I'm keen just to break down there, Amy, is that sort of moment of realisation that actually for Amy to be a better recruiter, to improve, I can't point the finger, right?

Yeah.

Because that's what you're saying, and I think that's such an important insight. And I went through that myself, and I've also experienced that when I was in a recruitment office, and you hear it, right? Fucking candidate's done this again, or client's done this, or whatever. It's easy to blame, right? So what, I guess, what helped you? Because I think a lot, and I'm sure you've seen this now when you've managed it, Amy, that people get caught in that, right? And like, people, you can, you can shake them and go, no, like, you need to look at yourself. But sometimes it just doesn't sink in. So like, what helped, what really helped you overcome that mindset of not being, not taking responsibility and accountability that actually frees you to improve and to become better?

Yeah, there's a few things actually. So I think for me, so there had to be like a point where I hit where I thought, this can't continue. So I'm really I'm really, really motivated by incentives and the trips and all the good stuff that the company can offer. I actually hit a trip, I think we were going to the South of France, and I had to drop out, which meant I didn't qualify, so I didn't get to go, and I was absolutely furious. I was absolutely devastated about it. And I was like, I'm really not happy about this. Sat down with my manager and he just basically just said, I'm just gonna be really straight with you, the problem is you. And I think we had to have that really difficult chat because I'd always done pretty well. I guess I've gone under the radar a little bit. I wasn't the top performer, but I wasn't underperforming. So I'd gone under the radar in terms of these challenging conversations. I'd had monthly business reviews, which we do every month, and they'd always been, yeah, you've done all right, like, keep doing the same, move on. Or you've had a dropout, just look at why, change it. There was nothing really like too stern or alarming, whereas things were getting worse. And then it got to that point, had that really difficult conversation, and, you know, reflected on it and thought, you know what, he's right, I am I'm not here to be average. I'm here to be the best. And if I don't start looking at how I can improve, then I'm never going to be the best. So I think that realisation, that difficult chat. And then also I started doing more self-development work. So I don't know if you've heard of the book Good to Great.

What was that? Good to Great.

Good to Great.

Yeah.

Absolutely love that book. And I still dip in and out of it now, but I read that and that was just a game changer for me. Like, there was so much good stuff that came out of that in terms of like mindset and change and just trying to be better and why people, like why good is the enemy of great basically. Like, you can carry on being good if you just keep doing what you're doing, but you'll never be great. And that just like really rang true for me because I was good and I was doing fine, but I wasn't fulfilling my potential and I was getting frustrated with that. And then I read that book and just so much stuff resonated with me. And yeah, I guess I just tried, I just took a step back and decided, yeah, I'm not here to be average. I'm not earning what I want. I've not progressed as quickly as I want and I'm going to do something about it.

I love that. That's awesome. So if I'm listening right now, Amy, and I'm like, frick, I'm that person. The way that Amy's describing how she was in terms of the person that you was at that point in your career, What would just be like your go-to, like, right, really think about this, ask yourself this question, go and read this book. I don't know, what would be your sort of just go-to place to try and encourage someone to take that step back just to run that off?

I mean, I think it's really hard, right, to look at yourself and think, I need to do better, it's me. Like, no one wants to admit that, do they? So I guess my advice would be like, there's no failure in that. You know, it's fine to accept that you can be better and you can change things. I think it's just giving yourself that time to reflect. So if you're feeling a bit disengaged, you're feeling a bit frustrated, especially at the moment, like, let's be honest, there's been a pandemic, like, it's not been fun for everybody. No one's where they want to be right now. So, and it's okay to take that step back and think, you know, what can I do differently? It's not a failing, it's just a change and it's a shift. And honestly, like, we've always had this phrase at Amore Bond, which is, it's always your fault. So if something goes wrong, it's always your fault. It's always within in your control. Now, we know it's not always the case, but we have that mindset on the basis that that's how you improve. So I think just tell yourself, like, it's weird, but like, say, like, it is always my fault, what can I do differently? And just, I guess, take a step back and re-look and analyze what you're doing. Longer term, you'll, you know, you'll thank yourself for it.

Yeah, amazing, love that. So next part that I was just really keen just to get your thoughts on, because it's sort it seemed like a really important moment to you pushing on in your career, and it's probably, if I'm honest, the area where most recruiters feel like they need to improve or want to learn and develop, and that's business development and that's client acquisition. I'm sure you've seen this now managing people. So you were just saying before we went into that around the— you decided that you're going to be the best recruiter you can be and you want as many clients as possible that's going to enable you to reach the goals that you have for yourself.

Yeah.

What— how did Amy still approach business development that you think really enabled you to hit your business development targets and achieve what you wanted to?

Yeah, so I think the first bit is to, from a planning perspective, I got really, really religious with planning the night before. So I was always a bit guilty of just like banging a quick plan together, running a search on the system. There wasn't a huge amount of strategy behind it. So instead, I just actually mapped out companies. I thought, right, we do automotive, let's properly map it out. Let's split them into different sections, look at locations, and just make sure I'm adding more data, more qualitative data, so I can have a better conversation with that person. So the planning element became a huge part of my daily structure. So I would always do it before I left. But the difference was I used to do it like my last job of the day. Restructured and started doing it at 4 o'clock instead. So I do an hour from 4 till 5 rather than starting it at like 6, half 6, where I was already a bit frazzled, like ready to go home, my brain wasn't fully operational anymore. And I just restructured, started doing it earlier, and it was just a much better quality plan, which meant that the calls the following day, I was speaking to the right people about the right things. Nice. And then beyond that, it was all about meetings for me. I felt, one, felt so much more comfortable in person than over the phone. Cold calling was fine. I didn't mind it in the end. Like, I wouldn't say I loved it. I wouldn't say I'm the best at it. I was consistent with it and I knew what I was talking about. But for me, it was all about meetings. I knew if I could get in front of a client, I would come away with business of like contract jobs or pipeline or future exclusivity. So normally we target everyone on 10 meetings attended a month. I— my target was 20.

20 meetings a month?

Yeah, yeah, because—

no, no, that's okay.

I was gonna say, because that's what got results for me. So yeah, you—

so you recognize— yeah, so you recognize that if you— you recognize, yeah, more face-to-face meetings meant that more chance of you winning business or forming new relationships. Well, the only thing that I was gonna ask— sorry to butt in— but, um, it was around basically what What is the recipe, or what do you think gave you the best chance of locking in a meeting?

So what, in terms of booking the meeting?

Just like, so if I'm listening to this and like, right, okay, well actually, you know what, Amy's completely right, I need to get more face-to-face meetings, or I need more Zoom video calls.

Yeah.

What, what's, what's been your sort of secret source of that, or what's just really worked for you in terms of if I call you right now and my objective is, right, how can I get a meeting? What's really worked for you?

Yeah, sure. So I think it's really important to lead with the benefit to the client of any sort of meeting because ultimately, so many people fall into this trap and I hear it all the time on Salesforce, like selling the benefit to yourself, not to the client. So I think it's really important to know the benefits to the client of meeting you and that there's various different, like, benefits to them. You know, if we see the site, we can represent them more. Effectively on the marketplace when they're hiring for them. It will give us a greater understanding of what they do so we can screen and select more appropriate candidates for them. In terms of working together and building a partnership, it's really important that we get that face time to get to know each other. And I think clients like meetings as well. It shows that you're taking it seriously. And, you know, when you're on site, you can see multiple people as well, so it's not like you're driving down to Coventry or whatever for one person. Like, you can go down for the day and see like 8 to 10 people. So it's a really good use of your time. And I think as long as you lead with the benefit, and I think as well, like conviction in the pitch, you know, again, I hear people, and I probably did it, say like, do you think it would be a good idea if it's like, no, it would be a great idea for us to meet because XYZ benefit, you know, when are you available? Next Tuesday or Wednesday? And like, alternative close it. So I used to have one day a week on meetings. So every Tuesday was my meetings Tuesday. So I used to already have it mapped out in my calendar. So I'd ring a client, pitch, say, I'm actually coming down to the area next Tuesday. Are you available?

You know, certain time?

Yeah. And if they weren't, I'd be like, okay, no problem. Well, now the week after, because I come every week. And name drop all the clients that you're working with. Like, if you're not working with them, just name drop them. If you are, then it's even better. And that's part of working in this niche. You know, you get to know your clients and your candidates. You know, they need to be dealing with you.

Yeah, I love that. So key distinction there, anyone listening, what I want to tie that from, what I got from that, Amy, was benefits of for them, not for you, right? And what you mean by that is if I call you right now, I'm going, look, I'm a specialist at this, I'm great at this, blah blah blah, the benefits of working with me. Well, actually, no, it's, look, Amy, we should meet because this is going to mean all the benefits for you, right? So I think that's the key distinction there because it's easy to go to sell yourself, which is part of it, right? But that initial part to get that meeting is, why is that worth their time, right? And that isn't because you're the best, it's because this is how we're gonna— I'm gonna be able to help you better if we do that. And that's really interesting. So just the, the other part of this, Amy, because it's a question I get all the time and you've mentioned it a couple of times, um, around this organization of your time, managing your desk all these things. It seems like you've been on a journey with this and you've really refined this in your billing days, it seems like. And it's one of the most common things that I get. So I guess if you think of what Amy's daily routine or weekly routine schedule was at the beginning of your billing career, by the time when you was hitting big figures, what did the sort of the perfect week look like? How was your day? We want detail here because people want to know how a recruiter plans out their day?

Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't know if you've ever heard this phrase before, but like, you think you're organized until you start working in recruitment, then you realize you're really, really not. So I always thought I was great and really organized, but I clearly wasn't. So yeah, so back, yeah, back in the day when I was running my own desk, so I had a pretty like strict regime. Like, I used to plan my day like by the hour in the end. So I'd get in early. I'm a bit of an early bird, so I usually get in 7, 7:30. Jump on, check my emails, deal with anything that has come in overnight that's pretty urgent. I'd have my day plan from the night before already, so if there was anything that had come in overnight, like candidates had sent emails with references on to take, I'd add them to the system, get them on my plan, and then I would log on to and do a bit of job spotting. So I don't know if you're familiar with that, but basically go on to the job boards, look at other recruiters' adverts, see if I could work them out. Put them on my plan, ring them myself.

Yeah, of course.

Don't know if other companies do that or whether that's just us. Maybe giving away a bit of a trade secret there.

I used to do that. I'm sure it's quite common. But yeah.

Okay, good, good. Yeah, so I used to do that first thing as well. So I got really like passionate about job spotting. Like if there was ever a job that went up in my market, contract job, I would want to know about it. And I did that every day. So I got on top of it. So it'd only ever be maybe 1 to 2 new ones a day. Try and work them out, get them on the plan. And then I would basically start and I'd always try and be on the phone before 8 o'clock. So at 8 to 8:30, I would jump on the job boards and ring candidates who put their CV up the night before. So just to try and get to them first for my live jobs, just before any of the recruiters are on the phone to them. So I'd do that and my goal was always to have at least one CV to job by 9 AM, which is when I moved on to B.D. So sort of 8 to 8:30, stroke 9 o'clock, depending on how many jobs on and what I was working. Ring candidates, qualify them, screen them, hopefully prep and send at least one CV to job. Then 9 till 11:30 was purely business development. So cold calling, following up my leads, speaking to my clients I was working a job for, taking references, and then MMC calls.

And the key part here, sorry to bite, the key part here is that Amy still planned this session a day before, like 4 to 4:30.

4 o'clock the day before.

Yeah, love that.

Yeah, cool. So everyone was already on my plan, all the managers I was going to see.

Yeah, because I feel like that's key, isn't it? That's the key. Yeah, that's key.

So important. Like, I used to hate it, say if I was due to be on a day of meetings and for whatever reason they got cancelled and I'd come in, I had no plan. I used to just hate it. I'd feel all over the place. So yeah, so that 2.5-hour session, I'd shut my emails down. I would be like, no one talk to me, get in the zone, and just like absolutely power through. And that's probably because cold calling didn't come like totally naturally to me at first. I got pretty nervous about it, which given I'm quite a confident person is quite unusual. And I did, I literally used to cold call people to get a meeting because then I knew in person I'd be fine. That's how I started. So when I was doing my BDE, yes, obviously you want to take a job, get a job, that's the goal number one. But in my head, psychologically, I'd just say to myself, you just ring in to book a meeting, you're just gonna book a meeting.

Yeah, is that how you go for it?

Yeah, but the result of that was that I got really confident, I had good conversations, and my BD really improved. But that, for that like 2-hour period, I literally just shut off. No one talked to me. This is what I'm doing.

Okay.

Then at half 11, I would break off and I'd spend 30 minutes following up on everything that I'd done over that that period. So any thank you for your time emails, any terms that needed to be sent over, any like admin-y type tasks, diarising my meetings. So I'd get all that done straight after. So as I'm doing my business development, I'd always, always do this and definitely recommend it, make a to-do list. So rather than doing it there and then, so if I spoke to somebody and they said, yeah, I'll meet you at this time, send me some details, rather than putting the meeting in and then sending the details, I would literally just record it all on the system, put it on my to-do list, and then at the end—

Yeah, love it, love it. Tie it all together. Yeah, there's no disruption in you focusing on BD, then half 11 till 12, it's like, right, I need to follow up. What admin? Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Okay, yeah, yeah. So 12 to 1, so at that point we would either have like training usually in the diary, or I would prep and send, um, like a client, like, like RTM, so like a bit of like a mass email with a CV on, or I would get my jobs ready to work for the afternoon. So I'd create, send another candidate email out to try and get more interest, repost any new jobs and adverts, any job admin basically to get a really good list of candidates ready for the afternoon session. And then I don't know if this is gonna be a great tip or not, I never really take lunch. I like go grab my lunch but then I just carry on working because I always thought like there's no point me being sat there for an hour like reading the Daily Mail when I could I could just be working. So I would—

I don't think there's ever a good time to read the Daily Mail for an hour.

Well, there is a really good point. I wish I'd not admitted that now.

I was gonna say, you do— yeah, when, when do you eat? I mean, for me personally, um, I, like, I, I don't really enjoy eating in the morning because I actually just feel more focused and just more light when I haven't eaten, personally. And then I'll— I'd normally eat my first meal, whatever. But okay, that's interesting.

Exactly the same. I'm terrible. I never have breakfast. So I have— I make myself like, I've got like a smoothie.

Yeah, okay, 12 to 1, get you ready for the afternoon jobs, get— yeah, yeah, and then what are you doing for 1 till the afternoon?

Yeah, so 1 till 2 is like technically lunchtime, but I'd go grab some lunch, jump back on maybe 20 past, half past 1, and then I just start working jobs. So, um, I would prioritize based on the urgency and the commitment from the client. So if I had interview slots available the following day or within that week, that would be my priority. So one thing I've probably missed out, actually, when I'm doing my business development, every client I'm working a job for, I speak to them every day, no matter what, to give them an update on my progress and to find out the status of the job. Have they got other interviews? What's changed? Just so I'm really clear on where I spend my time, because what I don't want to do is spend a whole afternoon working on a job to then ring the client and then find out, oh, actually we've filled it, or it's been pushed back a month, or whatever. So I would just check in every morning. Is it still alive? Do you still want to interview tomorrow? How many people do you want to see from me today? And like, treat it as more of a partnership. I think people like put clients on pedestals and you've got to remember like you're working with them, not for them. And if they give you a vacancy, ultimately they're giving you work to do. You know, they're not giving you money yet. You have to fill that job. And until it's filled, we don't make anything. So, you know, it's going to be on my terms as much as it is theirs. And I think having that mindset allowed me to get really clear on my prioritization on the vacancies that I was working because I'd learnt the hard way from wasting my time on countless vacancies that didn't go anywhere.

I think that's really smart, Amy, because I think there's that sort of, I don't know if it's fear, but that sort of internal dialogue of the, I don't want to call that client if I've got nothing to update them on, or I haven't got this amazing candidate to tell them about. But actually, it's just as much in your interest and theirs to find out, okay, what's the latest? What's going on? Where are you with things? And that's going to help you put the right resources. So are you just working candidates 1 till 4 then?

Yeah, pretty much. Just working jobs all afternoon. So really, again, really high intensity. Lots and lots of outbound. Anyone I do get on the phone, even if they're not looking, get names from them of people they know, people they're working with. And also, again, I used to always say, like, who do you know that's looking? And they'd be like, oh, no one. But you just have to reframe that question, you know. "Who do you work with that could do this job?" because then you're still getting names. It's like, they're probably not for me. I get that, but like, "Who do you know?" and I'll call them. And just getting names and constantly trying to increase your candidate network. And then prepping and sending the CVs over. I usually would try and put a quick call in again at that point, sell them in over the phone, see if I can get an interview booked for them there and then, rather than, you know, just sending them to see. And what I like to do with my clients is agree times to speak each day. So one client of mine that I've done a lot of work with over the years, we speak at half 5 every day when I'm working a job for him. That's the time. He makes it free, I make it free. It's really simple. He always answers when I ring. I talk about the people I found that day and we book them in. Or if I've not found them, why I've not found them.

So, okay, and then for till 4 to 4:30, you're planning the next day.

4 to 5.

4 to 5, sorry, yeah, planning for business development.

Planning, adding data, and do a bit of research. And then at 5 o'clock till 5:30, we do a group close every day. So everyone in the office reports back on what they've done so far and their action plan. And then half 5 onwards, back on the phone, working jobs, finding more candidates.

Love it. So let's just run this off, right? So I know that we were talking before Like, so what, in terms of like billings-wise, obviously you're a contract recruiter, just for context, and you're in markets, but like for me, I don't want to just assume I know the answer to this, but just for context, like, I know you said that you won top biller a couple of times within the business. Like, what was your best year?

So my best year was $4,000, no, sorry, $493,000, and I was furious because it wasn't—

Have you broke the $500K mark before?

No, never broke it. I know. I know, to be honest though, like, I, I, because I was building a team— I'm making an excuse here— because I was building a team at the same time. Like, if I'd not built a team, maybe I could, but I wanted to manage, so other things were important to me as well. It's just been a bit— okay, but yeah, but consistently 480.

Yeah, around that. Okay, right, cool. So the reason why I just wanted that for context, how important was Amy Steele Having a process.

So important.

So, because like everything that we're talking about now, it may sound a bit like, oh, fuck that, that just seems way too structured, blah blah blah. But the punchline is, how confident would Amy still be if you didn't have that structure or didn't have that plan? Do you think you'd build those numbers?

Definitely not. Absolutely not. Because on top of this, because I was building my team, I had to get even more organized. So that was my typical day when I was only responsible for myself. I got to the point where I'd actually start recruitment at 4 PM every because I was just helping other people. So, you know, you have to be organised. You get so much more out of your time. And I think you have to be strict with it as well. If you've given yourself 2 hours to do a task, even if you've not achieved your objective, you still have to move on because you've got other stuff and stuff won't get backlogged as much as that. Have you ever heard of the book Eat That Frog?

I don't know if you've heard of it. Yeah, I have heard of it, which is like, do the things that you have to or don't want to do First, get it out the way.

Yeah, it's a really short book. I definitely recommend it. I get people in my team to do it when they're struggling with time management and things because it's really, really simple, like, theory. But it's, yeah, just like make a list, get the urgent and hard tasks out the way, and just carry on. So yeah, I think, no, structure is so important. I mean, if you speak to any of my team now, like, they'll tell you all I do is bang on about structuring your time, being on top of your business, being organized, because I think it just makes makes such a difference to your output. And when you've got direction, you're going to get more done and you're going to be more productive. And, you know, I don't want people working 12, 13, 14-hour days. You're going to burn out. You know, if you can get it done in 11 hours or 10 hours, like, that's so much better. And you're going to go home, switch off, get a better night's sleep, and start again because, you know, you're not wasting time.

And I feel like when you have that structure, you can leave that office or there's more of a chance of Amy leaving that office going, I've had a good day today. Or, because there's nothing worse than leaving that recruitment office and going, right, what the fuck did I do today? You know, and normally that's because you didn't have a structure or whatever. So, okay. So the next part that I want to talk to you about, Amy, is, so you're someone that has thrived in a very competitive environment. And obviously, yeah, Morabund's a big business. There's a lot of people in here. Big part of this in terms of your success, clear process and learning what works for you, being disciplined, etc. Why do you think that Amy's been the person that's been able to achieve things like the road to directorship quite quicker than other people? Why have you been the person that's managed to get your hands on the opportunities to be a director, to have more management responsibilities, just more of an opportunity to progress? Basically, everyone wants to progress their career and progress them professionally. Personally, whatever, right? But why was it not the person next to you, Amy, do you think?

Yeah, it's a really difficult question. No, I think I know why. So firstly, I think the thing to mention is, you know, I have literally committed to this company and this job, like, as a number one priority, and I've made a lot of sacrifices along the way in order to be where I am. Like, particularly in the early days when I was 22, 23, my friends were all going out a lot, like, in the week, and I was literally sat in an office, not earning any money at this point either. I'm working around the clock in the blind hope and faith that what I was being told about recruitment would come true. And so, you know, and I've continued to work really, really hard. Like, my job is my priority. And, you know, I have the life that I want outside of work now because of the income and platform that it's given me, and I do what I want. But my job has always, always come first. And, you know, I've just worked worked really, really hard consistently though. And I think the other bit is probably just around, well, training and development. I'm massive on self-development and training. I'm always trying to get better. I'm really passionate about being the best and being good at things. But I think ultimately, I've just got this burning desire to be successful no matter what. Like, there's nothing that's going to stop me.

Have you cultivated that? Or is this something that you think your parents has impacted? Or have you always had a chip on your shoulder?

Definitely from my upbringing. So my, I had a bit of an unusual upbringing. So my dad was a professional cricketer.

Okay.

So I've grown up in an environment of like success in sport. And I did sport from the age of 3. I did gymnastics, I competed nationally, I then went into athletics, competed internationally. I've always been like challenged in terms of, I've been in an environment where like it's all about winning. Like that's just who I am. Like I'm one of these awful people that ruins everything because they're so competitive, like nothing is fun anymore, like I have to make it a competition, it's a really horrible trait of mine. But, you know, and then, so my dad was a cricketer and then he, when he retired, which he did in his early 30s, obviously the money back then wasn't like it is now, so he basically had to restart again and went and did a degree and then a master's in business and then has gone on to set up his own companies and been pretty successful and I think it's just innate in me to be a success and it's for myself, but it's also, I guess, part of it is like I like to be seen to be successful too. You know, I want people to be quite inspired and want to do the same, and I think it's, yeah, it's just been in me since I was little, the way I've grown up. Yeah.

I want to talk to you about women and being a female in recruitment because I think there's an interesting link there around your priority and sacrifice you had to make. Make, and I'll bring that link. But just, just quickly, because I want to make sure I ask you this, I think, how have you— so with that in mind, what you just said around you being competitive and you just had this burning desire, yeah, have you had to get better at being fulfilled? Or when you like— because the hard part of that, Amy, correct me if I'm wrong, and if you don't feel this, that's cool, but like, when is it ever good enough? Or when have you ever been good enough? It's not That's what I mean. So I feel like the reason I'm asking this is because a lot of people always talk about being a top biller, aspiring, right? And I think there's this interesting other conversation that when you— so like Amy reached this top biller status, then all of a sudden you've got this whole new thing to deal with is like, okay, well, if I'm not the top biller again, what am I? And I'm not— and like, you can be really hard on yourself. And that's a whole— I know it sounds like, well, she's done 480K, so it can't be that bad. But actually, there's a whole nother thing internally that you've got to deal with there. Do you get what I mean?

Absolutely, and you know what? Interestingly, that was probably the hardest time in my career, was at the end of 2017. So that was like my final year as a biller. I had a team of 14 people. I'd just been promoted to Associate Director in September. Our financial year ends end of November, and that was like my cutoff point. It was like, I'm gonna walk away from billing. I'm just gonna focus on management. I had to do it. From like a board level, it was like, you know, you can't be a biller still, you know, you need to expand this team and you know, it's not your job anymore. And probably the hardest thing for me was going from being the leader that led by example, do this because I'm doing it, to suddenly having to manage people without being that, like, role model. And that was really challenging for me whilst also taking a step back from the limelight, if you like. And yeah, not because I wanted that limelight necessarily, it was more for myself because you start to question and doubt, like, am I as good at management as I was at being a leader, another billing leader. And, you know, then it was a really challenging year, 2018. We didn't perform like— 2017 was the peak of my billing, and we won team of the year internally in the business. So it was like absolute, like, high. And then 2018 was really tough, you know, automotive started to decline, we had to diversify. As the team got bigger, you start dealing with more problems, and it was a really challenging time for me. And I really started to question, like, 'Can I even do my new job? Like, I don't even know if I can.' And, you know, you feel like you've lost the dressing room a bit at times because managing people when you're not doing it yourself is a lot harder, I think, or I did find it that way. So yeah, it was really, really tough, and it took me a lot longer to adjust than I would have expected. It probably took me over a year before I was fully comfortable with the fact that, you know, that's not my job anymore.

Yeah, that's tough.

Yeah, yeah, totally get that.

And just final thing on this, because I think Again, it's an important discussion. What's been your— you don't have to give me all the details, but the reason I want to talk about it is I think there's this really— so there's this really interesting conversation around how many people tell recruiters or give advice or guidance on what to spend their money on. Right?

Like outside of work.

Yeah, just because I think, like, you talking about young Amy, right, that you sacrifice, you wasn't out as much. I think, look, there's this— as we— I think we obviously a lot of recruiters are motivated from external things, right? And that's why you said you was motivated by incentives and all these things, right?

Yeah.

When 24-year-old Amy is earning a lot of money, like, have you gone through learnings from that? Any advice for people on that? Because I think it's important.

Yeah, I mean, I went out and bought a Porsche, which was a huge mistake because it cost me a fortune. So definitely don't do that, especially not with the new Bentley benefiting contacts. Do not do that. No, do you know what? It was always a big goal of mine to get a Porsche. Yeah, I was able to get it on the company car scheme and it was amazing, but wow, did it cost me money. Yeah, but yeah, no, I think, do you know what, it's a lot of— naturally, a lot of recruiters and why they go into recruitment is because they're quite money motivated and, you know, often are relatively materialistic in terms of like holidays, clothes, bags, shoes, and all the stuff that I like. But you see it quite a lot all the time. And when I look back, I've blown a lot of money, absolutely. But I've had a great time along the way. But now I've got a lot that I'm proud of. I bought my house 3 years ago, so in a really lovely area, Wilmslow in Cheshire. Always been a big goal for me to buy a house like that. And got a Range Rover, which was always a goal as well. Much more economic than the Porsche, I have to say. So yeah, I think advice, it's difficult 'cause everyone's different. And I've got people that work for me that just like spend all the money on rubbish, but that keeps them happy. And I've got others that are huge savers. And I wouldn't really want to tell people like what to do, but like, I think you've got to reward yourself, right? You're working really hard. You're dealing with a lot of stress. You're getting let down all the time by people, because you know, that's your product. And you know, if spending money on certain things makes you happy and that's why you do it, then do it. If saving it to buy something big does as well, then fine. I think it's alright really.

I just think there's a final, like you talking about how you've invested in yourself, self-development, I just think there needs to be a conversation on financial education as part of that. That isn't Amy, spend your money like this. It's, hey, by the way, Amy, when I was, when I did what you did, this is what I learned. And look, this, if you wanted to take that what you want, but I think there should be, I feel like, more conversations around consider this when you get that big paycheck, you know?

Absolutely, 100%. Yeah, there's a real lack of education on it. And, you know, you've got 22, 23-year-olds on six-figure salaries not knowing what to spend the money on. And I've got examples of that in my team now, so I see it firsthand. And yeah, I think there's definitely a big gap there, you know, how to invest money, where to save money, you know. You don't get taught that sort of stuff in school really either. And, you know, recruitment's probably the only profession, maybe outside of football, where you can be, you know, in your early 20s on that sort of money, probably, or maybe other sales roles. But We like to do a lot of work on— well, we do do a lot of work on goal setting and getting people really clear on their goals, not just the materialistic goals, but like their life goals as well and how that's going to make them feel and really about investing in themselves and their well-being. So we try to provide as much structure and direction as we can by doing that, because it's not just about the money side, is it? It's, you know, you're elevated in terms of the responsibility that you've got too. And I think channeling that in the right way is really important. As well. We do a lot, like, from a training perspective. Obviously, we work with you, which is great, and we have, you know, other external trainers. So the company invests a lot in that side of things, but we probably don't encourage people to do it themselves enough. So yeah, okay, something to think about.

Yeah, interesting. Right, so females in recruitment. Yeah, so, so where I've— where I put the link together, so I it was in like the first 50 episodes of this podcast, I did like a Women in Recruitment week. Okay.

Okay.

And one of the real common threads that I saw speaking to females like yourself— so you, when you're telling me that your number one priority was work.

Yeah.

Right. And you put all your eggs in that basket, worked your absolute socks off, right, which is a big reason as to why you got to where you got to and achieved the things you have, right?

Yeah.

So I think the common thread that I kept hearing was if I'm a female, I can find myself at this cross-junction where it's like, do I want to raise a family?

Yeah.

Or do I have to give up my career? Right. And I think there's this interesting, like, internal battle. Some females may not know that they don't want to have a family, right? But a lot of females do, and there's this sort of internal all, like, yeah, struggle with, like, and I think that from what I saw, I feel like from the conversation stuff, and I was having a conversation with, um, a female recruit today called Ellie, and this is one of the things that she really wanted me to speak to females about who have went and actually formed a family, because it's something that she knows that she wants, but actually, is that going to mean that all this hard work that I put into my recruitment career, is that going to suffer? And did you get what I mean? So Have you been through that? What's— what?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've not got a family and I've not got any immediate plans to have a family, but it's definitely something that I think about. And I know that other females in the business have thought and asked about as well. And I think any female working in sales, there's always going to be that element of like, if I take time out, what is the impact of that going to be on my business and on my progression? Because it is different for us, like it is, you know, even if we have a baby and then take 3 months out, which is like the minimum probably, it's still a long time in recruitment. So it's a huge challenge and I don't think we necessarily have a solution to it yet. What I can say though is that you should never ever sacrifice something like that for a job. Like, it's your family at the end of the day. It's the most important thing. But I think companies are becoming more and more equipped to deal with that and provide a platform to allow females to go in can have a family, take time out, and return without feeling like they've lost too much ground. So it's definitely been a huge agenda point for us at Amorea Bond. So we've recently launched a women's network within the company called Ascend. So that's been in the making for a while, but has been fast-tracked a little bit because we're doing a lot of work on diversity inclusion, but also because it was becoming more and more apparent that we've got more girls in the business now, which is great, but what that means is the question's coming up a lot more, you know, what is the— what's the policy when it comes to this? Because there's not really. I'm the main team leader.

When you say policy, you mean if I leave and have children?

Yeah, like, yeah, what happens? Like, how do I come back? What does it mean? How long have I got off? What do I get paid? Do I still get my commission? Like, loads of questions. And, you know, what if I've got a team? Do I then have to hand them over? Like, there's just loads of questions, isn't there? And I think it's really highlighted that we don't have a set policy, nor do I think we should have one, because everyone's an individual. But clearly, now we have more women in our business, this topic is going to come up more and more. And I'm the most senior sales female in the company, and I'm the only sales manager that's a female in the company, and I've not been through it. So there's no one there really that's that role model. So, you know, we've launched this network and we had the launch session last week, and a really common theme that came up was this. So it's something that we're now going to prioritize and tackle because I don't want anyone to feel like their job job or career is going to be sacrificed or held back in any way from having a family. I certainly don't want to feel that.

I think the first thing which I love about that, Amy, is that I think there could be nothing worse if you're in an environment and you're, yeah, you're at that sort of crossroads or you feel like you need to start thinking about it and you really feel like you can't talk about it. Because I think that's the most important thing, that if you feel like you can't talk about it and you don't talk about it, then there's no potential solution or whatever, right? But the fact you guys are actually going, right, what could this look like, how could there be blah blah blah, gives you then an opportunity to be like, right, we should think about getting this in place or whatever, right?

So much of it is about communication because, you know, people need to be able to feel comfortable to have that conversation without somebody jumping to conclusions and thinking ultimately, oh, you're gonna leave and have a baby next month. Like, it's not about that, it's more about future planning, isn't it? And that's why we create this network work, so much of it is an education piece for the male managers as well around communication and as a business because we want more females to progress and, you know, that's a big goal for us and if having more of a platform or more of a support structure in place for women who have a family and then return needs to be there for that to happen, then, you know, that's what we're gonna do.

Yeah, so why don't we just talk a bit more about this then, so, so, because I think you broke it down into into 3 areas, which I thought was really great. So, the purpose of this one is to actually have a place where, as a female recruiter in a big business, I can go to and talk about things that maybe, if I was to speak to Jeff next to me, may not be able to fully understand or see it from my point of view, right? So, that's great. So, what were the other purposes of this?

Yeah, so, well, the key things we— 'cause we've got 4 offices, and some are very— so, the UK office is like 50/50 females, males. I'm there as well as like a leader, so very, very comfortable with the whole female-male dynamic, whereas some of the other offices in the business, maybe like one or two females, so they were feeling a little bit disconnected from the group. So we created Ascend really to connect and support all the women across the different offices and to provide networking opportunities with senior role models in the business but outside of the business too, and, you know, with the goal of attracting, retaining, and progressing more women in Amorea Bond, and that's the really key bit, is that, and we, you know, it's all about progression, yeah, but how do we get to that point? And that's why we took it right back to the beginning. It's like, well, we've got to attract more women first, and then we've got to retain them, and then we've got to help them progress.

How do you think we can do that as an industry, do you think?

Yeah, so I think a lot of it will come down to the internal recruitment process. So getting involved in the interview. So if a female's coming into the office for an interview, having 10 minutes with one of the other women there, one of the other girls there, just as a quick 10-minute chat about what it's like, and having programs like this within an organization so people feel, you know, comfortable. And I think LinkedIn and social media is a huge part of that as well, like celebrating women in recruitment and celebrating success, creating awareness around it, being pretty like visual with different schemes and incentives that are going on, just so more women can get into the industry I think it's quite old-fashioned that people think it's male-dominated. I think it probably was at one point, but I honestly don't think it is now. I just don't think we create enough awareness around the fact that the shift has taken place.

Yeah, no, you're right. And I think, as I was saying to you before this, like, for whatever reason, if you were to look at the last 30 episodes, there's definitely more guys on.

Yeah, maybe Spanish.

Yeah, and I just think, like, I don't know, always, like, if I was to speak to a female about coming on, the first thing they say to me is like, and if I was to say, look, Amy, how open are you to getting involved? Normally, again, I'm just generalizing here, but normally they might go, oh, I'm not sure how much value that I'd bring. And I think it's that part that we were talking about before we started where I love the fact that you're willing to sort of get on the soapbox and go, look, this is what I've achieved, I've worked hard for it, this is what I've done. I think like, not in an egotistical way, but actually I think that's important. For females to have role models and see other people celebrate their success and not be, I don't know, I don't know if it's embarrassment, but I don't know if it doesn't come natural to you, whatever.

It doesn't come naturally, yeah, it's not natural to sort of talk like yourself necessarily. I mean, that's what obviously I said to you before I started, but I think really it's just awareness and it's just, it's about support. Like, I think, you know, from a communication perspective and in terms of how, you know, we're programmed, we tend tend to be more on the, like, not emotional, but like, we tend to be more on the emotive side of things. So like communication with a male manager sometimes can be a bit cold and a bit harsh, and that's how they communicate to their male staff. Maybe sometimes you need to be a little bit more understanding with a female. I know that's something that when I speak, when I manage my team, I do adopt my style based on the personality of the person that I'm dealing with, you know, male or female. And I think just maybe there's just a bit of an awareness of that. That. But the more women we get in, then, you know, the more women that will progress longer term. So that attraction piece is just huge. I think it's massive. And that's why I really wanted to come on today as well, because, you know, if there are other, like, female recruiters out there, or people thinking about getting— women thinking about getting into recruitment but aren't sure, like, I would really just love to encourage you all to do it because it's been an absolute game changer. It's changed my life.

So yeah, I think that's amazing.

So happy I did it. Yeah.

So look, before we finish, what I'd just love to get your thoughts on, Amy, because I feel this is something that you would be having to cultivate influence in your teams right now. Yeah. Like, how have you gone about ensuring that your team, people, your recruiters in your team that might be doubting themselves right now with how difficult things are, might be just overall finding it really difficult, and just you're having to play a role where you're just trying to encourage them in the best way you can to make sure they carry through and get through this? Like, what would be— what's been your actual advice to your team? And what would be your actual advice for people listening that— yeah, you know, that might be going through a slump right now or might be going, this is fucking horrible.

Yeah, and you know what, it is horrible. Like, anyone who says that recruitment's been really great for them these last few months is lying.

Yeah, it's just lying, sure.

It's not true, it's been awful. Yeah, no, and actually, I think that's the first thing. Like, I think it's just to recognize, like, there is a global pandemic economic, like there is, and there's nothing you can do about that. So try not to be too hard on yourself, first of all, because you've been thrown, you know, you're dealing with something incredibly challenging. Like none of us have ever had to handle something like this before, so it's not a reflection of you and your ability. It's a reflection of the economic, you know, state of affairs and what's going on. I mean, at the end of the day, the movement of people has been stopped, and that is what we do for a living. So I think the first thing is to just recognize that and and just think, you know what, it's happened. But obviously, there are ways around that and there are ways of making the most out of the situation. So what I've done with my team is firstly, obviously, getting them to accept that. It's not great, no one's where they wanna be, but it's not your fault, it's out of your control. So we're doing a lot of work at the moment on what is and isn't out of your control. If you can't control it, don't worry about it because what's the point? If you can control it, do something about it. Recruiters naturally are pretty social people, extroverts, pretty externally motivated. All that sort of stuff is gone at the moment. It's just the bare bones of the job, and it's a really, really difficult job to have, even more so than normal at the moment. So that makes it really, really tough. So day to day, we just keep talking a lot about goals and celebrating mini successes instead. Well, not instead, but as well, and putting more emphasis on them. In the daily closes, we're sharing positive news, we're celebrating the small wins, and just really, you know, unity and collaboration is so important, especially because it's really disjointed because everyone's at home. So just trying to bring the team together and leverage what we have got to create as positive an environment and atmosphere as we can, and I think just that reassurance when I'm speaking to my team each morning, setting them up for the day, giving them really clear advice and reassurance One amazing thing that's come out of this is video meetings. So, as you know, I'm massive on meetings and I've always driven that with the team as well. But because they're all on video, I can attend like 5 meetings a day with the team now. Whereas before, I'd be like, right, you've got me this day, this month.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But now I'm doing like 30, 40 meetings and like, for them, with them. So that's been really positive because from a training perspective, they all feel so much more confident with meetings now. And we're literally doing like 16, 17 meetings per head per month at the moment. Like we're doing 120-odd a month total. Amazing. And like the amount of pipeline that we must be generating from that is just incredible. So again, just focusing on stuff like that and like focusing on the strategy. We've changed our strategy. We're still engineering, we're still the core disciplines, but rather than automotive and aerospace, it's very defense or building services or food manufacturing, you know. So just shifting what we're doing. Yeah, it's out of our comfort zone, but, you know, shifting to ensure that we're getting a return and focusing a lot on leads as well because they're quicker wins. It's the quickest route to market and, you know, you're going to get a quicker return off a lead. So we've just adapted it a little bit, but probably gone off on a tangent here. In terms of the team, positive communication, reassurance, talking about goals, celebrating mini wins. Trying to bring everyone together as much as possible from a cultural perspective and, you know, just accepting that results might not be what they were right now, but it's fine because we're going to get through it, we're doing the right things and we've got a track record of success and they've 100%, providing they're turning up each day with the right attitude and working hard, they've got 100% backing from me and our business to support them through this time.

Yeah, I think that's amazing. Look, so So before we finish, what is Amy excited about post— well, I know we're saying it's probably gonna be a while.

Saturday, so I can't wait.

Where you going?

Hopefully I'm going to Mykonos. There's no live cases right now, so I'm praying that I can definitely go and definitely not have to quarantine.

Yeah, so fair enough. Excited for that. So look, you've been in the industry for a I guess just the final thing that I'd love to get your thoughts on before we finish is like, what do you think is gonna stay? Like, no doubt our industry has been sort of disrupted, things have changed, you're working at home, but all these different things, right? But like, in the next 6-12 months, what do you reckon will end up staying and how do you think that this whole experience will positively affect affect our industry, do you think?

Yeah, sure. So I think one thing we'll say is that there will always be a need for recruitment. That's just a fact. If you're working in technical sectors where people are hard to find, there will always be a need for your services. It might have slowed down initially, there might be more roadblocks in the way in terms of people starting jobs because of remote working and things like that, but there will always, always be a need. And I think, you know, you can't Despite all the different technology platforms and creative ways of doing things, you really can't quite beat just picking up the phone and speaking to a client or picking up the phone and speaking to a candidate. And I think now more than ever, like, that level of communication and customer service is important because people will remember how you handled them now in the future. And I think, you know, if a candidate's calling you and you don't work for them, still taking the time to have a chat with them and reassure them as much as you can, within reason obviously. And with clients who aren't hiring, but still being consultative, giving them advice, giving them industry news, like what are their competitors doing in terms of onboarding people, insight. All that stuff's really important. So yeah, what will stay will be that relationship side, customer service, that will stick. Certain sectors will be busier than others, granted, but I think all that stuff, despite the changes will still be there, and I think it should always just be a huge emphasis for people in recruitment is customer service and doing what you say you're going to do and being a reliable person in the market that genuinely wants to add value and help. In terms of how we're going to benefit from this, I mean, we're going to be great at what we do when things get better, aren't we? Like, we're going to be so much more mentally tough and resilient, and, you know, we're going to look back and think, you know, if I can come through that, I can come through anything. You know, one of the biggest challenges in recruitment is resilience, and why most people don't work out is because they just give up a little bit too soon. I think if you come out the other side of this, you'll be a better recruiter, a better manager, a better business owner, and when things get easier, which they will because this is temporary, you'll be better for it and you'll have more clients and more candidates and you'll hopefully go on to be more more successful, make more money.

Amazing. Amy, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you for having me.