Andrew McGregor - Our Vision is to be the most trusted recruitment agency in Australia.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by— I think you're going to win the title for the person that's traveled the furthest for this podcast.

Is that right?

Or just acts like you've just come over from Australia. I'm with Andrew McGregor, who is a director of Design and Build, who are based in Australia. And, um, mate, we've been speaking for a while Yeah, thanks for having me meet you, and I'm excited for this one. So as you'll know, where I always like to start, how, uh, how did Andrew McGregor get into recruitment?

Yeah, look, it's a great question, and I think I always ask everyone the same question, but then I ask myself, why did I do it in the first place? Because sometimes I wonder myself. But no, look, um, the story goes for most people that most people fall into recruitment. Um, it was similar for me, but, um, the sort of backstory was I was actually working in the tax office believe it or not, for 3 and a half years, which was, uh, an interesting experience. And part of my role was— I'm sorry, was it boring? It was and it wasn't, because part of my role was doing tax investigations. So I'd go out to places where we suspect something was amiss, and I've done football clubs, I've done pubs and some famous clubs in, in London. Um, and then it just so happened that we got this recruitment company to investigate, and subsequently you go to their offices and you start to look at, you know, the people in the office, and generally everyone's young and they're looking slick, and you've got footballs flying around everywhere and loads of noise. And I was thinking to myself, I've been in a tax office for 3 and a half years and literally I don't have an email address, I don't have internet, they don't give me a phone. And I honestly felt like my life was wasting away, really. So as the investigation was going on, the director of the company said to me, why don't you get into recruitment?

Oh wow.

And that's what laid the foundation, or delayed the idea, so to speak. And then, um, obviously one thing led to another. Did the investigation, they turned out to be dodgy as, but that's another story for another time. But I couldn't help not think about it more. So then probably another 3 months went by and that's when I started to look at recruitment.

So you actually proactively looked?

Yeah, I did. And it was— I spoke to a couple of friends, and in fact one of my friends said, don't do recruitment, you won't be any good at it, you need to have a sales background. But no, I got into it by seeing it probably in the flesh, um, and thinking to myself, do you know what, I've always been a people's person. And people, you know, describe what's a people's person. Dad was in military, I went to boarding school, I moved every 18 months.

That's tough there. I know a couple of friends who've had that. That is tough.

It is. And but you put yourself out there. So whenever you go to a new military, you've got to— yeah, obviously You're always assimilating to people's culture. So for me, that meant when I was thinking about recruitment, I was like, well, I can do that easily.

Yeah, that's really true.

So that's the story how I got into recruitment, basically investigating another company and turning out thinking that looks good for me.

Wanted some Rolexes.

Yeah, absolutely. Never got one.

Never got one.

Cool.

So then let's frame it up a bit then, and then we'll sort of dive into your story. So you worked for— was it— so you worked for— was it MatchTech you worked for?

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Okay. And then how many— how long did you work there for?

So I spent 4 years there.

Okay, nice. So, and that was your first recruitment job?

Yeah, that was my first recruitment.

So we're there for 4 years, and then after that you then— and then is that when you left to go to Australia?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so I spent 4 years there and, you know, started as a junior consultant as you do and progressed over the time into team lead role. But then after about 4 years, started to come a little bit over some of the, I suppose, mentality of a big corporate, if you want to call it that.

We'll dive into that. And then after that you then went to Australia. Did you start your own business straight away, or did you then obviously Work for someone?

No, no. So I originally joined Design and Build as a consultant. Oh, okay. In Melbourne. So I basically— Neil was advertising the magazine for recruitment consultants, and I got in touch and, yeah, joined as a consultant. What was that now, almost 9 years ago.

Okay, so then, and then you've obviously got to the point where you are now at Design and Build over the 9 years.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I became an owner at that time.

Okay, cool. So you've lived in Australia for how long?

Uh, come 9 years.

Wow, nearly 10 years.

Yeah.

Okay, amazing. All right, cool. So let's start to unpack that then. So going to Match Tech, obviously, yeah, what were they like? Obviously big at that point when you joined?

Yeah, I think they were approximately 200-250 people.

Okay.

And it was a single site office back at the time. Um, so when you walked in, it was— everyone was a suit, tie. Yeah, everyone had shaved.

Yeah. And what was the sector that you went into?

I went into civil engineering, so highways in effect. Yeah, um, but yeah, it was, um, that, that interview experience was— I've never experienced anything like it. I never will again.

Talk to me.

Um, 4 stages. Yeah, every stage they're telling you you're not good enough and you're not gonna be able to do the job.

I'm sorry, up against other people? Was it like a group one or was it just you?

No, no, it was just me.

Okay.

Um, and like each interview is about an hour and, you know, it was just like, no, you're not good, you can't do this, you've never done sales, you've done a degree. I sat there, I don't know if I can swear, can I? So yeah, of course, I was like, fuck you, mate, I can do this. Yeah, because I'm one of those, don't tell me I can't do something because when you do it even more. Yeah, um, but there was even a psychometric, there was an intelligence test.

An intelligence?

Yeah. And then you had to meet the MD, and I got through all of that on my first day. You then meet the MD on the first week, and he sat there and he said, I don't know what you're doing here, really. And literally, that was my first week in the job, and I was like, oh, she got the job by this point.

And then you met him, and then he was like, what the hell are you doing there?

Yeah, he was like, um, yeah, you don't have the conventional background, I'm not sure. But we'll see how you go. Oh wow, I lasted longer than him. Yes, nice.

Okay, well, okay, so, um, civil engineering. And then just, just to help me, um, understand, and the people listening, and then was it contract you went into? Was it perm?

Yes, contract temp within local councils and highway authorities. So an example would be the Highways Agency or Transport for London. Um, so all I did was highways, and Match Tech were very specialist, so it wasn't If it was a bus stop or a bus route or a traffic, uh, a cycleway, I couldn't touch it. It had to be someone designing a road or supervising the construction of a road or inspecting a road. But it, it effectively made me that 5 miles deep. Yeah, so I made you super niche, but it allowed you just to go straight to the hiring manager. This is who I am, this is what I do. All I do is what you do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they were very smart about that.

Okay, amazing. So let's— what I always like to ask people before we move on, like, how, how are your first 12 months in? So obviously you had this MD, Saint Andrew, 'Nah mate, not sure, we'll see how it goes.' How were the first 12 months?

I was rubbish. Really? No, look, first, first 3 months for me, I started late October, okay? So I still remember my first placement, and that came in sort of early January.

How mad is it, you always remember your first deal?

I remember my first 3, I think. But I think the second guy's still in the job.

How long did it take you?

Um, it took about— so I started 26th of October, and I think the first deal was early January, like 13th of January. So it took a bit of time to get into it. Yeah. Um, hence the reason why they give me a bit of stick, but I did the numbers.

Yeah.

Um, but look, it was difficult because I hadn't come from a sales background.

Yeah.

And, you know, they hammered you. But at the same time, what I remember about it, it was that sort of every call got better. So every phone call just got a bit easier and a bit easier. And suddenly, after 6 to 9 or 6 to 7 months, you've spoken to these people at least 8 times.

Yeah.

So they start to know who you are, you're starting to consistently talk to them, and suddenly you feel like it's a switch. You're like, oh yeah, that conversation just went a lot better, yeah, than the other 6 had gone. And then that sort of— when it started to really build after about 7 to 8 months, that's when my times went from 1 to 10 to 20. And I think, you know, it went on from there, really. Um, but yeah, I always say to people, you know, 6 to 9 months, it's always difficult. Um, so I put them—

would you go back and do anything differently?

Um, you know, it's funny, somebody else asked me that, and it's so, so long ago, yeah, that I look at it and go, well, I can't change the past. So of course, there's anything I could do differently Probably not. I probably could. What would have been easier? And I think in today's world, because they've got— we've got podcasts, because we've got books, etc., else I always say to people, if you want to make it easier, listen to these. Yeah, listen to other people. That's right. Yeah, go team. But no, it's true because, you know, you don't get a lot of help, right, in the first, and you're always looking for people to sort of help you. So I'd always say to anyone, if you want to make it easier, you know what, listen to these podcasts because we've all been there.

Yeah, no, no, I think again that was sort of what this was born out of really. I worked for a small boutique agency and I learned so much from everyone around me, but like I just totally recognized that I could— there's got to be so many more people out there that I can learn from. Um, okay, just quickly then before we, um, move on, I guess, how, how did you— how— because I'm just thinking people listening who are maybe going through that period at the moment, 6-8 months in their first 12 months, where it is still really difficult. Um, did you just naturally, when you get off these calls and you're improving, did you say, okay, what could I have improved there? Or did you get— I mean, like, what was the process of you getting better? Was you asking for help? Was you listening to other people? Or was you getting off the phone calls going, right, Andrew, that's, that's gone really well, why was that, how could I improve that? That went really well. Did you get what I mean?

Yeah, look, I think one of the things I was taught very early on, because don't get me wrong, MatchTech were great at the training. Yeah, you know, but what I was taught and what I always say to everyone is make sure you get something from every call. And it could be something that's quite insignificant, but just look to get something from every call. And it could be so insignificant as, when do you next want to talk? When's the next time I can speak to you? Because whilst that might not sound significant, when you call them back, you turn around and say, you told me to call you on this day. Yeah. So therefore you've had a win along the way. Um, but what I've always said today, and, you know, 9 or 13 bloody years ago whenever I've got recruitment, is, you know, when shit goes wrong, that's fine. What did I learn and what am I going to do next time?

Yeah.

Um, so it's always that sort of, you know, analyze every call, but don't overanalyze it. Just get on the phone, get beat up a little bit because you're going to get beat up.

Of course you are.

Prioritize speaking to a lot of candidates. You know, when— if you've been set a target of, you know, whatever, 100 calls or 150, whatever it is, double that with candidates because they'll be the ones that will give you the information. They'll, they'll build your confidence.

Yeah.

Um, but, you know, I also immerse myself in the industry. I learn about every project.

Really?

I learned about, you know, every company and how many temps they've got, what's the maximum they've ever had.

You've got a good memory?

Uh, yeah, I've got a bit of a Rain Man memory.

Really?

Rain Man, Rain Man.

Well, why did— why did I just feel— because I did a, um, podcast yesterday with, um, a contract builder, and he had a really good memory as well. Like, how—

like, I don't know what it is, but an example would be that, um, uh, consultant Charlotte, who's actually back in the UK now, she, um, she was talking to this chap and she shouted across the desk to another guy. She said, I've just spoken to Peter Phillips. I went, oh yeah, he worked for that company in Brisbane in this role. Back in about 2012, 13, right? And she just looked at me like I had 4 heads. And I was like— she went, how the fuck?

That was just natural.

Just comes naturally to me. I still remember my clients' numbers. Um, so when I got back, I called a couple of them just because I remember their number. That's a joke. But it's, it's just some people have got that, yeah, in their brain. Um, yeah. And I always say that, you know, I don't want to be rude to people, but you, you generally want to test people's memories and try and figure out how much they remember, because that's what people buy into. When you want to build trust with someone, you refer back to—

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah.

And I can give you a bit of point of difference and make you stand out when other people are calling them.

Yeah, I mean, also when you, when you walk into a client's office or, you know, meet a candidate and they talk about a company or something, you just go, oh, that person, that person does this. They look at you like, all right, all right, so you're serious. It's like, yeah, I'm dead serious about this.

I like that. Cool. So then just I know you touched on it, but help me understand. So you obviously billing, that went well, then you went— what? And then did you go up the traditional ranks of match tech? So like—

yeah, that's right. Yeah.

So what did you, what did you sort of evolve to?

What was the— so my first role was junior consultant, then you move into consultant and then senior, but I always had aspirations for leadership. Really?

You always thought about that?

Yeah, well, my father's a leader in the military, um, so therefore he started as a, you know, a gunner, which effectively is the bottom rank, and I watched him progress into senior role within the military. So I saw some examples of him being a and I think he was always inspired by that, just stuck with me. And so, you know, I always wanted that leadership role. So I moved into a team lead role after about 2, 3 years.

2, 3 years? Yeah. And then you managed a bit before you left?

Yeah, I did. Yes, I ran a team for about a year. And actually, going back to one of those biggest regrets was my first year in management, I was a complete knob.

Yeah.

But I'd learned from other managers in the business who were a bit dickhead-like.

Yeah.

But my last year, I sort of pulled my head back in. But yeah, the last year was leading a team of 4 to 6 consultants recruiting the sort of highway space.

Really? Okay, let's just unpack that a bit then, and then we'll dive into the Australian stuff, which I'm really keen to do. Um, okay, so then firstly, like, performance-wise, did you just— was it— did you get that management position, the leadership role, because you was performing really well and they're like, right, Andrew, if you can create 3, 4, 5 more Andrews, then this can be really profitable?

Yeah, I think that was the model of Matchstake, really. We sort of, um, once you get to a certain point in your billing, you get put into more of a senior role. Um, you know, I think they promote bad people and they promote good people like any business probably does. Um, but yeah, I got up to sort of over 100 temps out. Really? I was billing.

What does that mean billing-wise, roughly?

It's probably about £15,000 to £20,000 a week.

Really?

Good.

Sorry, I'm, I'm pumped. So that's like what, roughly?

You get sort of up to £500,000, £600,000 a year.

Fucking hell. Um, was that like your best, biggest years?

Or in the UK it was, yeah.

Really?

Yeah. So, but it's the match take model, you know, and they did incredibly well. Um, and you, you'd inherit temps when people left and all the rest of it, all that jazz. But the issue they always had was it was margin. It was, it was low timesheet margin. Um, but you know, that's what, where I was successful was, you know, I got into an account and never assumed that I knew everyone in the account because I think a lot of recruiters, they get too comfortable. But I was like, right, okay, so that's that division, I've got 4 temps there, but over there Anders have got 6 temps, so I need to go and get their temps. And hey, they've got 4 over there, and Eden Brown, I got 4 there. So I was always like, right, where else can I win? Yeah, cool.

Um, just, yeah, just quickly then, thinking again how people can get value listening, let's— I think There'll probably be a lot of people listening that are contract recruiters and they, they might have hit a bit of a glass ceiling, or they're more at, um, they're nowhere near as to like where you got to but have aspirations to get there, I guess. Yeah, you can obviously talk about your experience in Australia as well, but I guess looking back, what do you think were the key things that enabled you to get to that sort of £500,000, £600,000 plus, or the amount of temps that you got to? You mentioned just a bit of a, um, a valuable piece there, but what were the sort of key things would you say that enabled you to get to that, to that point?

I think, you know, some people have just got habits where it's never enough. Um, and for me, every time I hit a certain milestone, whether or not my 5 grand a week in contract, 6 grand a week, 7 grand a week, 8 grand a week, what's next? But where is it as well? Because you've got to be smart about the clients that you're trying to target. There's no point in talking to clients where, you know, if you're a contract recruiter and they've, they've only ever had one temp, well, you know what, there's not opportunity there. You need to be identifying clients where they're a project-based client and they have seasonal, you know, projects, whatever else, and suddenly you know, at their peak they've got 12, and right now they've got 1.

How'd you find that out then?

Just asking information, you know, speaking to temps, you know, continuing just to always mine for information.

Yeah.

And it's a sort of— it's a, it's an interesting— oh, so how many temps you've got at the moment? 1. That's not many. Yeah, but when we're really busy, because people like to talk about when they're busy, we've got 12. So you always want to be mindful of, you know, if there's one client with 6 temps but they've only ever had 6 and they're with one agency, your opportunity to success is less than we've got got 4 now, but when we've had 12— oh, how many have you had them with? About 11 agencies. Isn't that difficult for you to manage with 11 different agencies? You're always sort of mining for solutions and information. I mean, that's how I did it. It was always, right, that's my temps there, but where else? Where else? Where else? And then you'd ask the temps, and then you look after your temps as well. I mean, one of the things MatchTech did really well— you couldn't not speak to your temps every 4 weeks because they were on you just like a brick about it, about staying in touch. Yeah, staying in touch. So, you know, you, you'd spend time and you take them out for beers. You'd get to know these people because they're human beings, right? You know, it's their job, and they, you know, most of them, you know, they work in temp, they want to know that you look after them, you're looking out for them. And the moment you do that, they'll look out for you and etc. Because they know, they know that you're there to make money. It's just how you make it. Do you make it really well, or do you just make it by being selfish? And for me, it was always like, right, go to London every week, spend time in the temps. And then the other temps who didn't work through Match Tech would be like, why can't I go out for beers? And why am I being looked after? And the best example for me was 2 years ago when I got married, my best man was my temp, or my ex-temp.

Shut up!

No, my ex-contractor. Really? Yeah, so in Australia, um, me and him got to know each other in London. We got— but you get to build friendships with these people.

Yeah, yeah.

And so it was my temp for 2 years, I left, and then someone gave me a reference to do about 3 years later, and it was Struan. And called him up and I was like, hello, you little wanker. And he was like, oh, for God's sake, I thought I got away from you.

But, um, no, subsequently we, we built up a friendship and Yeah, okay, so to round that off then, I think what you said there, which is really interesting, was if I'm a contract recruiter right now, have you actually made the time to think about the accounts that you're working and the accounts that you've identified? Are there accounts that at peak, really busy times, are going to need a lot more of a service? You need more people. Um, have a real think about that. And if, if it isn't the case, then start trying to find out who, who are the people that, um, who are the businesses that need a lot of people at these times. Then the other thing which I've heard before obviously is really, really double down on your candidate network. If that is— yeah, it's getting to know them more than it needs to be, more than transaction, right? Um, because if you've got a really good relationship, then hopefully you'd like to think that if they get a call by another recruiter that's offering them £10, £15, £20 more per hour, whatever, you'd like to think, well, actually Andrew's really looking me off, did you get what I mean? I guess that's the sort of objective there, isn't it? So would that be fair? So like, there's some key things that enabled you to really excel to that point.

I think there's two, yeah, two other things also is, you know, what do your clients do? Are they all capital expenditure led or are they operational expenditure led as well?

Okay.

Just having a balance of clients about what sort of projects and what sort of work that they do. Because if you're just all your clients are capital expenditure, that they're relying on— sorry, um, so they're money coming in, so there's investment. Okay. They're working on projects that need to be built or their new projects.

Yeah.

Whereas operational sort of existing churn projects, so like upgrading services, etc. Um, so you always want a balance of what your clients do.

Yeah.

Um, so it's really learning that. And exactly, I think, um, it's funny when you mention about candidate networks, my nickname was Payroll King.

Really?

Because literally people would call me, but I've just got from Australia, I've got a job with this company, and I've been told to call you. Um, and yeah, that's the nickname I got because I just looked after the people.

Yeah, that's amazing. So yeah, okay, cool. And then, um, just be interesting to get your thoughts because again Thinking of people listening, a lot of people obviously— I'm sure you've experienced it now in your time in Australia, but obviously that is still quite common where a really good biller is then pushed into management, even if maybe if they do want it or don't want it. So I guess you did say that obviously when you started, when you did start that management career, you was a bit of a knobhead. So let's just unpack that and quickly sort of talk a bit about the learnings that you experienced with that, because I'm sure there's a lot of people that maybe are currently a bit of a knobhead in these things, or trying to, trying to understand how to manage people and how not to manage people. So what, what did you learn through that period then, and what were the things that you definitely would do different, differently, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, look, and I did do them differently.

Yeah.

Um, because I think people want to be inspired and motivated, uh, to be better than themselves. Um, whereas when you're a younger manager and you're trying to bully them to being you, is it—

was that— that's quite common, isn't it?

It's like what I do and do as I say, you know, it works, you know it works.

It's like, why would you not do that?

That's what But it only works for you.

Exactly.

Yeah, you know, one thing you learn is that what works for you only works for you and you only. Yeah, you can try and work to people to, you know, build their own habits and ways, but you are unique. So don't bully people into submission. Don't create a culture where it feels— people come into it like, fucking hell, this is going to be a really shit day. Inspire people, especially in recruitment. Yeah, it's tough enough as it is.

Yeah, exactly.

Um, but so that's what I learned, you know. I tried to replicate think what my manager had done. But actually, I, you know, with respect to him, I didn't really like him because of what he had— the way he treated me. Yeah. So then, you know, I remember getting home one day and a few of my mates— and I probably acted out, you know, with my mates— and they were like, stop being a dickhead. Yeah, really?

Was it literally— yeah.

And then, and then I thought to myself, I'm like that at work, so what must they think about me? How do I— how can I help them do better? And it was like, well, stop doing what you're doing right now, you know, have you know, open conversations and motivate.

And so it's a mindset change.

It is a mindset change, um, you know, but it took a little while. Um, but fortunately for me, sort of towards the end there, you know, we had a team of people where we were all in it together.

Yeah.

Because what I learned when I went to Sydney, and obviously not to get too far ahead, but I wouldn't be where I was today without my team.

Yeah, of course.

So, you know, I was glad that I learned that early on because if I wasn't, I'd be in a completely different job and a completely is from country somewhere else in the world.

Yeah, so it really was that mindset change of, I guess, being less selfish, basically.

Yeah, yeah, it's about you and more about them.

Yeah, and that, as simple as that, that would be your advice to people that are going through that transition at the moment?

Yeah, yeah.

And it will pay dividends long term?

It will, yeah. If you, if you give people time and, you know, and obviously there's always another part to management and management of people, but, you know, give them time to get to where they need to get to. Just give them the guidance and the motivation. Um, don't bully them.

Yeah, I doubt you'd have the, uh, Payroll King nickname.

We don't want to leave that as the last impression. I just remember one of the ladies who worked for me in Sydney, yeah, she went to me, oh yeah, I remember you, you were called Payroll King. I was like, oh no, oh no.

Cool, mate. So Australia then. Yeah, really, really, uh, keen to dive into this then. So firstly, like, how did that happen? So was it literally you saw a magazine, an advert in a magazine?

Yeah. So what magazine was that? Wait, wait for it. It's just a— this is actually a funny story. So originally I contacted Recto Recto. And he put me in touch with these 3 absolute basket cake companies, and I was like, right, I'm finishing this look. Yeah, straight away. Um, but then I read the New Civil Engineer magazine, which is obviously a magazine for engineers about projects in the UK, and Neil, the director of design and build, had advertised for recruitment consultants in Australia. And I thought, well, hold on a minute, this is pretty smart. I'm reading a magazine about projects and it says Australia infrastructure boom, recruitment consultants required, design and build. And I was like, love the Dick and Balls logo back in the day, which is, uh, you know, we'll talk about later. But I liked that straight away, you know, it was different.

That's smart.

Yeah. And so I emailed Neil, I said, look, you know, I've been thinking about it for a while. I'd actually had 25 finishes that day as well, so I was incentivized. But I emailed Neil, I said, look, you know, this is who I am, this is what I've done. And him and I spoke for 20 minutes on the phone on a Sunday, and that's about 2 days later. And then I spoke to Matt, the other director, for about 2, about an hour, and then I was in Australia 5 days later.

Really?

Yeah. No Skypes, no FaceTimes, no CV at the time, just just two conversations and then, yeah.

What was the biggest driver behind that then?

For me? Yeah. I'm just, I'm urgent, as in, you know, I've done psychometrics and I've got high urgency.

Okay.

Um, and I was just like, right, if I'm gonna do it, just do it now. Um, so why did you want to go over there? Um, I just like the idea of it, really. 26 at the time, I think. Yeah, 20, 27 at the time. And I thought to myself, you've never, you know, you put yourself out there by leaving a safe job and gotten to recruitment. If you're gonna leave, you know, match tech, do you want to compete against someone? Do you want to try something completely different? I was like, Australia sounds good. I've never been to Australia, really. Um, so yeah, just literally had never been there before.

No, I love that. That's amazing.

Then arrived in Melbourne, it's 3 degrees, pissing down with rain. I thought, what the hell is this?

So yeah, so where, so where, where was you initially based in?

Based in Melbourne for 18 months.

Okay. And then where do you live now?

I live in Sydney now.

Sydney?

Yeah, cool. Yeah.

So I guess the first thing that I'd love to dive into before we go into sort of that, that whole journey would be Um, through that whole experience now, firstly, so I'm, I'm under the impression that it was a lot easier as a UK recruiter to go over there as compared to as it is now. Is that, is that correct in saying that, or?

I don't know, I, I find it surprising that people say it's easier in Australia. I just think—

no, no, as in easier to get over there.

Oh, so yeah, like more like—

yeah, yeah, so that's what I meant. Sorry.

Oh, the visa?

Yeah, the sort of— because obviously, yeah, it was a lot— was it— is that fair to say? Yeah, because you know how it is. If you're a recruiter right now and you're listening, you've got 2 years, 3 years, 4 years experience, you're getting you're getting nailed by rectorates, right, who are going to say there's, there's opportunities in Australia. It seems like everyone's saying there's opportunities in America now, these things. So like, yeah, what's the actual reality of a UK recruiter right now being able to, to go over to Australia?

Just the opportunities are still there.

Yeah, right.

But you—

so you can't— it is achievable.

Yeah, you can do it. So I put on LinkedIn the other day, it's 2 years experience and a relevant degree. But a relevant degree is business management, HR, right? Not psychology, law. Oh, so relevant to the craft that you're going to be doing what we're doing, right? Or it's 5 years experience to get a visa, right, without a degree. But if you're just 5 years recruitment, yeah. But if you're, you know, that's, that's what they state. Now don't get me wrong, some people are able to get visas outside of that. I never know how.

Yeah.

Um, but what, you know, if you're, uh, in your 20s, um, you know, you've got 4 years, you can go to Australia, spend 3, 6 months traveling around, and then go and work for a company for 6 months on your working holiday. And then you've got the 5 years. And then those sort of things, then would that be easier? That would be easier just to get out there and get a feel for Australia.

Actually, that's probably a better smart way, isn't it?

It is, because the cost to Australian businesses of hiring through the visa process has almost trebled in the last sort of 5 years. Um, so, you know, the, the risk to Australian businesses of hiring people from the UK has just gone up exponentially, along with the, the significant salaries that we have to pay now.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So it's definitely still achievable?

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, I think you just gave some good advice in terms maybe a slight different way to approach it.

Yeah.

Um, okay, and then the other thing that just to get your perspective of, and then we'll talk about your journey in Australia, is, um, what should UK recruiters be thinking about before they go over to Australia to like move their life there or career there? Through your whole 9 years there now, like, what the hell should these people be thinking about if they're seriously considering moving abroad with their recruitment skill set?

Yeah, it's, it's actually a great question. Yeah. Um, you know, I think there's a realization that when you first move to a new country, your first 3 to 6 months are getting to know people, right? I'm not talking about work here, I'm talking about personal. Yeah. So if you are in the position where you can get a working holiday, yeah, I would recommend getting that and going to Australia, getting settled, getting to know people, getting networks of people. Yeah. Before you take a job, because once you get into the job, you've got to commit to the job.

Yeah.

So, you know, because when you first get out to Australia, you say yes to everything, you know, yes to doing everything. Problem is, and work takes secondary to that.

Yeah.

And suddenly you find yourself 6 to 9 months into the role and you haven't, you know, you haven't focused enough on it because you're doing your personal stuff. So I think to myself, that's the one thing first, get out there and get to know people to try and build some social networks.

Yeah, it's not just you like on the other side of the world trying to—

yeah, immerse yourself in the Australian culture. Don't go look at that, just go to the football, go to the beach, go and do Aussie things.

Is that like actual football though, or is that this weird Aussie football thing?

I mean, Aussie football, I love Aussie rules.

Really? But to be fair, I've never watched it.

I went to the game earlier on with Aussies, right? But what you find sometimes is people people just spend their time in English groups or Scottish groups or Irish groups, and then they start to say to themselves, you know, I'm not really enjoying Australia. I'm not. And it's because they're not doing the Australian life, which is getting outdoors. And because in— basically in the UK, you sit indoors and wait for it to stop raining. In Australia, you're outside and you're waiting for it to rain because it's too bloody hot.

Yeah.

Um, so I think immerse yourself in the Australian culture. Um, if you're going out and you've already got a job, make sure you spend some time learning about the lingo, learn about the locations, the geography, because UK, we don't mind traveling an hour and a half. Yeah, no worries. In Australia, they don't like traveling 15 minutes. Why? And it's a big country because they're lazy. No, no, they just don't like travel. It's not part— they would prefer to spend more time at home.

Yeah.

In the morning and more time at home in the evening than being traveling. So we're not— I'm talking about construction. But you know, if you said to someone, hey, it's a half an hour drive, they'd look at you like you've got 4 heads.

Like, really, mate?

It's not good. I want to be within 20 30 minutes at home. That's an extreme, but that's how Australians think, is I want to spend less time at work, more time at home, and I'm not going to compromise the home part. Really? Um, so that's a nuance of the Australian market.

Yeah, yeah, cool. All right, interesting. So 9 years and you've only worked for design and build?

That's right, yeah. So 2 jobs in 13 years of recruitment.

God help me, that's, that's mad.

Okay, a lucky number 13 for somebody, you know.

Yeah, so, um, Okay, just, just to give me some context and to frame it up then. So, um, join them as at what sort of level? Because obviously you had quite a bit of experience now.

Just consult. Yeah, I, um, I took a consultant role. You know, my, in my view, I wasn't a team leader, I wasn't a senior consultant because I knew nothing about the market.

Yeah. And was you going into the same sort of niche or—

I, I went from civil engineering contract to construction permanent.

Oh really?

So yeah, I went to perm recruitment, which was my— I remember doing my first job advert and I was like, what, how do I do this?

Really?

He's like, you've never done a job ad? But I went, mate, I'm a temp recruiter.

Yeah, don't do job ads. Okay, so, so give me— just give me the context. So it was consultant for— perm consultant for how long?

Perm consultant in the Melbourne office for 18 months. Yeah, recruiting construction. And then we had started up a Sydney office, you know, whilst I was in Melbourne. It had been going for about 2 years, hadn't been going very well, you know, wrong people, wrong direction, whatever else. And I was a little bit despondent with D&B at the time, you know, I won't lie. I felt the business was potentially going backwards in some of the things it was doing.

Yeah.

So I put my hand up and said, hey, can I go to Sydney and try and help you, you know, get the office going the right direction and trying to put my own sort of stamp on it in a way. And obviously I had that leadership aspiration. So I moved to Sydney 7 years ago.

And then you stayed there since?

I stayed there since, yeah.

And when you joined there, was what, you went straight into like a leadership role?

Yeah, so I took a state manager role. At the time it was myself and there was 4 others when I went into the office. Oh really? 3 of them went because, you know, new leader, etc. else. So I was lucky that we got Kelly.

So it was just you?

No, myself, Natalie, brought on Kelly in, uh, May when I joined in April.

Yeah.

And then Alex, who— and Kelly and Alex are still with us today.

And then how many people are in this, in the office now?

Uh, 24.

Oh wow.

Yeah.

Okay. And you've sort of led the direction of that and— yeah, obviously other people.

Yeah. As I said earlier, you know, we wouldn't be where we were without the two— yeah, Alex and Kelly and the other leaders that have come through. Um, but yeah, you know, during that time we've had a great sort of uptick in consultants.

Yeah.

And gone for a bit of turnover as well.

Yeah.

Currently at 24.

Okay. And then, um, was you— and then did you stay in that perm? Yeah, you stay in that market?

Yeah, I stayed billing as a billing consultant in construction permanent, uh, for another 5 years.

Oh shit, really?

Yeah, so I was still sort of billing up until about 18— about 2 years ago.

Really?

Yeah. Okay, cool.

Yeah, let's unpack that then, and then I'd love to sort of get your perspective of, um, sort of how UK recruiters have done when moving over to Australia and some of the biggest pitfalls or the common things you've seen these people and these things. But yeah, let's just unpack that a bit then. So how How was that whole transition for you then? Like, was that a difficult period at the start?

Yeah, it was. Yeah, you know, it wasn't easy going from, you know, being very comfortable—

payroll king.

Yeah, payroll king.

It was like that, to like top dog, to like— yeah, that's nothing.

Well, I was, you know, I always thought you get given a plaque and it's a pile of shit. There's the maggots at the bottom of the beetle at the top. Yeah, I was a beetle at the top.

Yeah, yeah.

And then I became a maggot. Um, and you know, I remember the first phone calls, even the first phone call, all right mate, and he was like, yeah, I'm all right, how are you? Because I didn't say how you going. Really? That was my first phone call.

Wait, say that again.

How you going?

That's how you should open.

That was my first phone call. He said— I said, are you all right? And he was like, yeah, I'm fine, why you asking? But even things like that, you know, just suddenly speaking the lingo. So my next phone call was like, how you going? The guy was like, yeah, I'm all right, you're right, because he was British.

But no, no, so in all seriousness, you know, it was getting to learn permanent recruitment.

But I always will say, hand on heart, that I always believe temp recruiters are better recruiters.

Really? Why's that?

Because the amount of plates you're spinning, just the amount of volume and the energy that you bring into the desk. And permanent can be quite slow. So I think any great perm recruiter is someone that creates urgency, creates energy. And in temp, it's already there, but in permanent it's not. So you've got to create it. So that's what I learned within the perm.

So how did you deal with that transition then? Like, what did you different things that you had to change and like the different, like, did you have a different approach?

And yeah, because they didn't need someone yesterday, they sort of wanted to bring somebody on board. So you had to suddenly learn about crafting, you know, how you would talk about candidate skills and experience and what value they could add to the business. Because previously it was, I need a design engineer for 3 months who's got MX, right? Okay, I'll go and find someone who's got MX for 3 months.

Obviously they've got to be decent, but still it's very reliant on the skill set they have. If they have that perfect—

you know your networks, you knew who was good and who was bad. And then they'll say, well, I want— and they always give you the hard roles first. Remember, in any new business role you're doing, they won't give you the easy stuff, they'll give you the hardest roles. And so you'd be like, right, and then you have to talk to them about what value they're going to add so that your sale of candidates completely changed. So then you've got to learn more about your candidate's aspirations and desires. So that was what I found was, okay, it wasn't just, I have a job here for this long, do you want it? Yes, you do. Great, go. It was, well, I have an opportunity that I want to talk to you about, but before we get into that, I want to learn about what are the things that are going to make you you want to leave.

I can imagine that being such a challenge.

Yeah, I was like, oh my days. And then you were negotiating— even negotiating fees was different because then you're talking about the value you're adding to the client and what they were paying for. Whereas in temp, they're paying for the need. Yeah, I need someone, that's what I'm going to get. Whereas when you're negotiating in terms of business with clients in permanent, it's about what value you're adding, what features and benefits of your terms. Um, so it was all these different things coming into it. But what I did, I just created urgency and I had a lot going on. Yeah, I was like, right, if I'm gonna— I went with the rule of 3 back then, which was, you know, for every 3 interviews I'll get 1 placement.

Yeah.

So if I want 12 and a quarter, or 1 a week and a quarter, I need to at least have 36 unique candidates out at interview any one time. So it's just always about the volume. And don't get me wrong, some— I think one quarter about 18 interviews, about 2 placements, but that's because I wasn't very good enough. But no, so for me, I just took the temp approach, which was always make sure you've got 3 to 5 new things on, but box each one off and move on. Um, so I think that's a mentality I've always had, and I think temp recruiters, that's why they generally have a high level of success.

Yeah, cool. Okay, and then just, just quickly then, if I'm a contract recruiter now and I've taken a position into perm, what are the things that I need to be like, right, I need to get this sorted, or whatever? So you said about create that, have that same urgency, these things, understand that actually how you're positioning your candidates and how you understand them is different, these things, but Just to wrap that piece up then, if I'm a permanent recruit right now going through that transition, what are you telling me to try and make sure that I get back to the success I had?

You summarized what you said earlier, which is that you've got to learn your candidates' desires and aspirations. You've also got to learn your clients. You're asking different questions to your clients about permanent recruitment needs rather than contracts. So you've already summarized it quite nicely. I think the other thing is also negotiating and standing your ground on your terms of business.

Yeah, yeah. Don't put your pants down.

No, but understand why not to either, because clients think they're paying for the outcome and the guarantee, right? That's what they negotiate terms of business on, how much your fee is.

Yeah.

What your payment terms are.

Yeah.

And what your guarantee is.

Yeah.

Right. That's not what you— that's not what they're paying for. They're paying for all the stuff you do before that. So it's about educating your clients about that part of the process. Um, that's what you need to learn because, you know, I talk to the consultants and other sort of peers a lot about features and benefits. You know, clients call us because of two reasons, because they want the time or the money. That's what they— because they haven't got the resource themselves to do it, and they don't have the money to do it either. But they don't call you because they think you're going to waste your time or their time, and they think you're going to cost too much money. So you sort of got to overcome these two things that conflict against each other. And I think that any great perm recruiter, that's what they learn. Yeah, you know, how to negotiate your position so that you win exclusive business and you win it for the right reasons, which isn't because of the fee or the guarantee, is because of the service you provide. I mean, that's something I learned over sort of 4 to 5 years in permanent recruitment, which is why in the last 3 years all I did was retained.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay, cool. We're definitely going to talk about that. So just quickly, and this, this, um, part of the business, obviously I know it's been going for a couple years beforehand, but like, was it pretty much you building up from scratch? Pretty much, yeah.

So Design and Build's been established, it's 15 years as of this year, but the Sydney branch had opened up in 2010, in mid-2010. I went there mid-2012. Myself.

Okay.

Um, so along with Kelly, Natty, and Alex, it was the 4 of us. And for 18 months, believe you me, mate, it was really shit. I hit rock bottom personally, hit it professionally, you know. I was, I was in a bad way.

Um, why was he in a bad way?

Just making silly mistakes as a 29-year-old, really, sort of single man in Sydney does. Um, but I made some poor decisions personally, which obviously have a knock-on effect to you professionally.

Yeah.

But what kept us as a team was our togetherness, really. Every success we had, we celebrated. It could even be a good conversation with a client. The moment it happened, because we were in a room and obviously people can't see this room, but this room is probably 4 by 3. Yeah, or 4 by 4, mate. Yeah, maybe this is the size of our room that we're in, right? So you'd hear every call, good or bad. And when you had a good call or a good job on or a good interview, a good candidate, you're like, mate, fucking well done. Yeah, yeah, the potential that could be. Because we're, you know, as recruiters, we're always about the opportunity and what it could mean and be. Um, so that's what we did.

But you was pretty much building it, pretty much building out of you guys.

Yeah, yeah, we had a strong brand though as well. I mean, design and build, you you know, people recognize it for what it was.

Okay, the reason why I'm asking you about that is the— probably the most common question, um, I get asked to ask guests on the show is around building a desk and business development and these things. Um, so I guess I'd love to just get your perspective of how you approached building that business. Obviously it wasn't just you, but you guys as a collective. What are the sort of key things that you did to get to the point where you are now in terms of the sort of building the clients and building that, that part of the business. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. Well, look, I think first and foremost, um, every new recruiter, every experienced recruiter, when they come to Australia, go to UK, US, they look at the biggest companies, the best companies in market, say, I want to recruit for that company. That's the first mistake they make, really, because they don't need you, right?

Why don't they need them?

Because they've got everyone else. Everyone else is chasing everyone else, offering the service, right? You have to work with companies who need you. So where are the other people in the— so you've got your sort of tier 1, you're— if you talk about Microsoft, Google, if you talk about construction, then lease multiplex for your subjects or listeners, don't try and recruit for them in year 1. Okay, build up to them in year 5. You start with your SMEs. Yeah, don't start with the big boys because people assume that a company of 20 doesn't need to recruit via recruiter. Well, if their turnover is 20%, that's 4 hires a year.

Yeah, right.

If you can then take on 2 of those hires, then all you need is probably in the first year— this is as well, I mean, it's not, you know, years 3 and 4 but you probably only need another 10 clients and there's 20 hires in a year and there's £300 grand in billings. Rather than trying to recruit for lend-lease and multiplex, get one role in that whole year, be competing against all these other companies, other recruitment companies and internal solutions, barking mad. Go after SMEs where there's teams of 20, 40, 60.

What did you map them out?

Yeah, you're talking to line managers, you're talking to decision makers, right? And you're establishing again, you know, how much recruitment do you do, you know, how many people did leave in the last year, what's your turnover, you get companies say, I've got 60 people and my turnover's 40. You're like, right, so 24 times a year you've got to go and find someone. Yeah, right. Okay, well, hold on, how much in terms of recruitment? Generally we probably hire 6 to 8 people in a year for recruiters. How many different recruiters? 6. Bingo, you're in a good spot. That's what you've got to do, start to talk to your SMEs first, build your brand, build your networks, deliver on those, and then what will happen over time is you'll start to make your way up. Up into the mid-tier space.

And then when you say building that way, you mean the clients and those types of clients you're delivering and working for?

Deliver, deliver, deliver. Because you can also make mistakes as well in that end of town because there's enough of it. Yeah, but then, so what, what you did is we started one desk, I got that desk set, moved off it, brought somebody in, got another desk.

That's how you approached that?

Just set it up and then move away from it, move away from it to give it to somebody else. And now we do recruit from the top companies in Australia. You start with the SMEs.

That would be your advice now?

Yeah. And never forget them either, because there will still be 80% of your business will come from SMEs because you're still within, you know, talk about gatekeepers and stuff like that. There are no gatekeepers in SMEs. You are dealing with—

so how are you approaching these people? Like, real practical, like, what's like the go-to?

For me, it's just phones. Yeah, first business, always have been. Um, but, you know, I always sort of go with the track of, okay, let's look at a project they've won and then give them a call about that. So have something ready to speak. So that's sort of, you know, you can use sort of project trackers, etc., else and, you know, introductory call, or this is who I am, this is what I do, I understand you've won this project, and go with that sort of conversation. But, you know, there's obviously the marketing you can do behind it in terms of brand recognition. But I'm always phone first. People want to still deal with people, right?

Yeah, 100%.

I agree.

I'm definitely all about the phone. It's just what can you do online? Like the part that you said about the projects, that's an online element. But what else can you do that can help that phone call conversation? Or what else can you do online to breed trust and credibility before you pick up that phone?

Yeah, I think in today's society, in terms of what we've got in terms of LinkedIn and sort of other social sites and websites, you could be looking at that information that company's providing about who they are and what they stand for. You know, if you start seeing them take part in sort of charity, etc., so you start seeing them take part in sort of industry events, start to talk about that. Because when you speak to someone for the first time, they want to know if you're serious or not. Yeah. And if you're just going in cold, you're going to have your pants pulled down pretty quickly.

Yeah.

Whereas if you're going in with something which is, I understand you take part in this, or I understand you take part in have something to talk about, have something to talk about.

Okay. And then, um, so how— so then obviously you continue to bill him for quite a while then. How did that go, billings-wise? Did that— did you— do you— obviously through that you had a tough period, but it was fine.

I mean, I always met my budget. Yeah. In fact, I had one quarter I didn't bill a thing, which was a bit of a squeaky bum moment, really. But for me, it was always about getting to budget, but it was never about being the biggest biller. For me, it was about getting something set and then getting the fuck out the way and getting something else set and building something that was bigger than myself. Like Um, because that was what was more important to me, wasn't having a team of 4 where we were all billing shitloads of money. Okay, well, I want to create an opportunity for Kelly to lead Venture People eventually. That's what she wants. Yeah, same for Alex. So I can only do that by building something that's bigger than us. Um, so it was never about being the biggest biller. Yeah, it was about building something bigger than me.

Okay, just quickly then, before I dive into that, because I don't want to miss asking you about it because you mentioned it, how did you get— you, you touched on it, but like how did you get through those real tough times then, mate? Like, personally, professionally, you know what I mean? Because obviously there must be more to it than— I totally get that you're in a room like we are today, it's 4 of you against the world, like you're celebrating everything that you achieve together. Totally get that, because it's not just about Andrew then and Andrew's problems. There's actually other people that are on with me on this journey. How— how— because I can imagine if I'm— if I move over to Australia, or I'm a recruiter listening and I'm over there at the moment, maybe and it is fucking difficult and it's really tough. Like, what, what, how did you get through that real tough time then?

Seek help.

Really?

Yeah, just ask for help. Um, you know, I am— perspective is one thing, right? And we could talk about that later, but seeking help is, you know, I'm struggling, you know, I'm, I'm not finding this easy, I'm having, you know, personal, professional problems. Don't be willing to just suck it up and say no, don't suck it up and see that, you know, you've got to seek help. And yeah, seeking help, you don't have to be embarrassed by it, but yeah, like, hey, help me because, you know, I need it at moment. And then people start to talk to you about their problems, and you go, how did you get over there? Like, talk to people about it, sort of help. So I think whenever you're having those moments where you're like, fuck, this is, this is really shit, rather than go into a, into a shell, yeah, go and speak to people. It could be your family, it could be your friend, it doesn't have to be recruiters. Yeah, it can be anyone, right? Because we've all been there, we've all had moments where we've been at work or at home, on a football pitch, on a bloody—

I guess that's where it can be really tough, that if you move to the other side of the world and you feel like you've got no one to ask help from.

We have, because everyone else who's moved across had the same issue. Yeah, there's always those people out there who've been in the same boat as you. Yeah, you know, you're not alone, you never are. There's always people that have moved to a new country and they've gone through the same trials and tribulations. And so what I tell people a lot, when, when I mentioned earlier about going to Australia, was say— and it was Kelly that taught me it— she said, say yes to everything.

Really?

When everyone says, do you want to do this? Yeah, because what you do, you quickly find out what you like and don't like. But if you say no to everything, you're never gonna know. So then when you flip it on, I'm having a real challenging issue at the moment, it's like speak to your family, speak to your friends, speak— you can speak to random strangers. People are generally open, and when you talk to somebody about that—

Just don't say, hey mate.

Yeah, alright mate. You can say, hey mate, hey mate, it's fine. Alright mate. Alright mate. No, it was, you're alright.

Oh, you're alright?

You're alright? Yeah, yeah, yeah, alright, you're alright? No, it doesn't work. But no, yeah, seek help, be open about it, you know, and obviously for me that's what I had to do. There was that one defining moment where I had to sort of just be honest, really, and everyone was like, yeah, right, cool, well, you know, what can we do? And I was like, oh, so you're not— I'm not going to be embarrassed by this or ashamed? No, yeah, we've all been there. Perfect.

So have you ended up building relationships, other mentors or anything like that then that have helped you along the way?

Yeah, other business owners in recruitment in Australia. I've gone and said to them that, you know, I'm going through a transition in— because the issue, I think, you go from being a consultant to a director and owner right? Being a consultant, you almost institutionalize— you know what you need to do every day to get the outcomes you're looking for, right? Then you move into director role and you're like, fuck, I haven't done this one before. And people are looking at you for, you know, inspiration, motivation, guidance, and you're going, what I used to do was get on the phone and just go and just be, you know, show people how that, that side of it. Whereas I can't do that, I haven't got the time to do that, and I have to work on the business. So you sort of, you suddenly do this whole new job after 13 years of recruiting. I was like, this is actually quite hard.

She reached out for help.

Yeah. And so you've got to reach out to other business owners and, and peers and sort of talk to them about, you know, how they navigated it, etc. else. And they're also the same thing, which was I spoke to somebody else about it.

So that's even at the consultant level, isn't it? It's like if you, if you've got aspirations to get to over here and there's Sally in your office that's got there, or there's someone that you've seen online on LinkedIn or whatever, I'd say yeah, like, I love that. Just actually reach out. And I think I always say this, but like, I've experienced this myself, and like, you'll be so surprised as to how many people are willing to help. Yeah, I know how many things have come off the back of the podcast where people reached out, and like, there's so many great things that happen, but that's because people are actually really willing to help.

Yeah, well, look, mate, I mean, obviously we talked about it earlier with you before we started, about when you did your first Twitter. Yeah, your social side, you know. I just got in touch with you and you weren't asking for help, but it was sort of sometimes it's just nice to give people a bit of a cheer up and say hey, you're doing a good thing, keep going.

But people will be willing to help. Like, if you are going through a tough time and you're like, fuck, no one cares, like, this is hard, but there will be people willing to help. Um, okay mate, so then what I'd love to, to get your perspective of then is just quickly, actually, out of interest, because I was, I was interested to, to ask, like, when you say like you build up something, then you get out of the way, you build up something, you get out of the way, what's— what do you mean by where, where do you need to get it to for you to comfortable to give it away, do you get what I mean?

I think, yeah, I think you always want to— probably when I looked at building that construction team, because the construction team is what now, 12 people, you sort of want to know you've got 4 to 6 clients which you can, you can rely on to bring, you know, the business will come in, and then it's upon the consultant to probably go and win 4 or 6 more to take the test from being—

so how did you pass that on? Because you, you would have built those relationships, and then you tell them, right, so just to let you know, I'm now going to probably do more this, you're be speaking to Tom, who's going to be—

yeah, he's telling your clients what you're trying to do as well.

Yeah, you know, get them bought in.

What you're— you know, we psychometric everyone in our business, but I'm very open. Okay. So I'll tell our clients what we're trying to achieve, I'll tell our candidates, and yeah, so I'll tell them why I'm getting them into the journey that you guys are on. Yeah, absolutely. Because again, you know, clients are interested in hearing that, believe it or not.

Because obviously that can be a challenge, isn't it? It's like, what, why is Andrew not calling me? Do you know what I mean? Because obviously, yeah, you've got to be open and honest because you don't want people to perceive you like, oh, Andrew's too good to talk to us now, whatever.

You've always got to be accessible um, so it's not like I don't go out to client meetings, it's not like I don't go to events and see those clients, um, because the clients always want to know who's right at the back, the one making all the decisions at the back of the room. They want to know that person there's not a dickhead either.

Yeah.

So for me, when there are issues that need to be sort of dealt with, I'm always happy to jump in. I'll always help with those issues where relevant and where I need to. Sometimes you've got to let people just deal with their own shit and say, right, figure out what you're going to make the mistake you need to make, and then you know what, after that, don't worry about it. Yeah, because 99% of the time when people make a decision, they make the right one. They're just scared of making it.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay, that's interesting. Um, okay, so then what I'd be interested to, um, ask your perspective of then is firstly, so the, the team that you've ended up building, how many of those are, um, originally from the UK, roughly?

Yeah, great. Uh, Kelly and Alex— Kelly are state managers from the UK. Um, Alex worked at MatchTech with myself. Adam's from the UK, and then you've got Aaron, um, who's Aussie, really, I live in Sydney. Um, but the balance between the team is sort of 50% male/female, 50%, I would say, Aussie, 50% are overseas.

Okay, cool. So I guess before I ask you like some of the common things that you've seen UK recruiters struggle with, because I think that'd be really interesting to talk about, like what are the like key, key differences from from the UK market, been in recruitment, to the Oz, you know what I mean? Is it easier in Oz to be a recruiter? Like, do you know what I mean? What's— what are the sort of key differences?

Yeah, I mean, and obviously I've touched upon that earlier, probably the wrong time, but I only have experience in two markets. So I worked at Match Tech for 4 years and Australia for the last 9. Um, so when people ask me this, I'm like, I don't know, because I always dealt with Aussies and Kiwis. But people talk about the UK being more transactional and Australia being more relationship-based. Potentially that's one thing. But I think with Aussies, they're more willing to give out trust, but you can lose it quicker as well.

Really?

That's one thing I found is that once you lose trust in Australia, you're never getting it back.

They like to hold grudges.

Oh, they just do not forget about it.

Really?

So that's why, you know, our vision is all about being the most trusted because we're like, don't fuck that up.

Yeah.

Okay. Because once you've lost that, to get it back is so hard.

Really?

Is it, you know, less saturated potentially yes, but is it still a busy market? There's still plenty of competition in the market. Yes, there is. Um, are there still the highest performers? Yeah, there are. I, I don't have enough experience to say because I probably didn't work in enough agencies in my time. Um, but I talk about Aussies and the way they are, that if you break trust with them, you're done. You're literally done. You need to move on. They're not gonna— they're not gonna let you get away with it. Um, so I think that's one thing I found. And but their willingness to sort of meet and have a chat way higher.

Really?

Yeah, way higher, because they're just that way inclined. It's, oh yeah, good day, mate, how you going? That's how you open a conversation. You don't go, all right, mate, because then they're like on the back foot. So just having an open conversation with them as well. But sorry, I can't probably offer too much because, you know, at match tech I did relatively well through my own style and the way I was.

Yeah, but that, that probably helped you in that and what you're just talking about there.

Direct and open, you know, no bullshit. I'm not trying to pretend something.

If you were listening to this and And yeah, so if you're a recruiter and you're listening to this and you're in the UK, and let's be honest, if you are probably a bit more transactional but you're good at what you're doing, you're good at putting people in the right place, and you may not have some solid relationships, that may be difficult in— because you're probably more inclined or more easier to make the mistake of breaking that trust than that if you go over to the Australian market.

I think I've generally found with people that I've worked with in the UK and Australia, the more salesy they are, the harder it is for them to succeed. Lead.

Really?

Um, you know, I was putting some content together around you don't need to sell, you should tell the truth. It's telling who you are, what you do, and how you do it.

Recruitment sales, isn't it? It is.

It's— yeah, it's sales, but you don't need to actually sell, you know, because they already know what we do, or they have a perceived idea about what we do. And then you bring them into the real picture about what they do, and they go, oh shit, that actually sounds like it's a little bit more—

crazy how simple it is. Just do the right thing and be honest.

Yeah, tell the fucking truth. Yeah, you know, people say in 4 words what we tell new recruiters It's like, tell the fucking truth.

Yeah, it's not hard. Yeah, yeah, I'll try to get that.

Cool. Fear of loss and all that.

Yeah. So I guess, what, from your perspective then, what have been like some of the, the common challenges that you've seen UK recruiters have going over to the Aussie market and trying to be— trying to obviously replicate the success they've had in the UK? What are— so you probably maybe touched on it there, but what are some of the common things that you've seen as you've been building your team?

Assuming that they will be successful, it'd be, it'd be one, a presumption of—

oh, assuming that they're going to be successful—

the presumption of I've got 4 or 5 so I don't have to do what I did 4 or 5 years ago this time.

I've got to go back feeling like a maggot.

They do, because that's how people perceive them. Yeah, there's no trust. No one knows them. You know, when you talk about sort of recruiters, when they're consciously competent, means they've got their market, they've got everything knocked off. But when you're going from UK to Australia, you know no one. Why would you assume you'll have the same level of success by doing half the work? And that's what someone once told me, like you go to Australia and you work 50% as hard as you did in the UK, you'll be successful. Bollocks. You still got to apply the same work ethic. Yeah, but if you work as hard as you did when you first started and you've got 4 years experience in doing it, you, you're—

I guess it's having the humility to be like, okay, right, I'm really gonna have to pull my trousers up.

I know nothing. All I know is what I knew in the UK, and every conversation I want to see what I can apply and what I can't apply.

So is that the biggest thing then?

Like, yeah, presumption that they'll be successful. I've done this, I've got it boxed off, don't worry about me, mate. And then they get there and it's like, yeah, that's nice.

Is that— is that— I hear that's obviously quite a common challenge when, like, you're— if you're hiring sort of experienced recruiters, that they do come with that sort of, Andrew, I know what I'm doing, mate, like, relax, like, let me crack on. But, like, do you know what I mean? Is that a common challenge?

We talk about it a lot in our business around— as we bring people into the business, it's like, whatever you knew, that's fine, but there's a way that we do things, there's a way that our clients—

is it that different?

Well, it's just the way we are. Yeah, we all do things differently because everyone's unique. Yeah, um, but it's that willingness to adopt what we do, um, because I found it many a time where people— we've got our aftercare program, our work health and safety compliance, our sort of system compliance— and people are like, oh no, it's not like this in the UK. It's like, well, this is how it is here, so fucking well do it, you know. They're like, oh no, I don't want to do that. I'm like, well, okay, we'll do it somewhere else then. Yeah, um, because we're not a KPI business, we don't sit there and set, you know, cool targets, etc., out But we set everything around trust, you know, how we build trust with our clients, because that's the one thing we want to focus on. So when we start to say to people, what's your interview-to-placement ratio, what's your CV-to-interview, they're looking at me like I've got 14 heads. I'm like, that's the shit you need to know to build trust. Um, but because some come over with the assumption of, well, I've done it before, I can do it again— bollocks. I wouldn't come back to UK and think that I could be successful. I could go back to day one, which is, okay, how do I structure my day, what habits do I need to build, etc. Else.

Okay, interesting. I think that, that makes a lot of sense. Um, so I guess what I'd also like to get your, um, opinion on, because I think you're well placed to, um, share your perception on it, is obviously as you've been building this team, I'm sure that you've had some, some really good billers, hopefully still have some really good billers and some really good people. What have been two things— what I always like to ask people about is what have been the, the common things that you've seen, um, in those people that have helped them get to that point. And what I always like to ask is sort of where do you see people sort of falling short, or the habits that they have that, that, um, prevent them from breaking through that ceiling?

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, the, the sort of common things that you see in, in the, the high-performing people you have in your business.

Well, yeah, I think, I think, I feel like we probably get smarter in the fact that we've profiled every single person through a psychometric.

Yeah, that's interesting.

So what, what's the—

just quickly, like, what's the footprints process behind that?

Because you, what, you know, you think you know people.

Yeah.

But sometimes you don't. But that you start with you, right? So I'm aware of my strengths, but I'm also acutely aware of my weaknesses. So that's something that's made me so quite aware of self-awareness, self-awareness, right? But not everyone is. So the first thing we said, right, let's profile every high performer we've got. And there's a common theme that came out. So now, openness, urgency, energy, and accommodation. So these were things that people—

they probably say that again.

Openness. Openness to change and advice. Yeah. Accommodation, which was they generally, they won't accommodate certain things, you know, standards, for instance. So once the standard's set, that's it.

Yeah.

They won't accommodate anything else. Urgency.

Yeah.

Having high urgency.

Yeah.

Having high energy.

Yeah.

And the other thing we always look for is empathy.

Yeah.

So what we then decided from that was the two things we've got permission to play, we call it, which is we'll hire someone if they can show two things, which is driving You're driven every day to succeed.

They're the key things that you look for when you hire.

And you care. You generally give a shit about your clients, candidates, and colleagues. So yes, you want to do really well, and yes, you're going to bring loads of energy and urgency, but you're never going to throw somebody under the bus. You're never going to— and the accommodation part comes from you're never going to allow your standards to slip. And those are the 5 key things that we can profile any one of them, and we've seen with our highest performers, they all sit in the same one. There's like this wave that comes through and it's like, right, okay, well you know what, we know that not everyone's going to be the same, but those are just 5 things that we look for.

Yeah. Is there anything else within that then, within these high performers that you see?

Um, no, those 5 things to me are always though, you know, the urgency of, urgency of action. They come in every day, they've got high energy, they won't allow substandard sort of work in time, etc., else. But they've got a lot of empathy and they're open to feedback. So that's why we came back with our values of honest communication, feedback, care, and focus. They all pair into, you know what, I've just heard you say that on the phone, did you consider, or have you considered this? You said that to a business leader who's billing 600, 700, 800 grand a year, they're cool with that because you know what, it's helping them improve.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's how they all—

how do these people with these traits deal with the shit times in recruitment then?

I think the same as every— what I was speaking about earlier, just talking about it, having perspective. Perspective as well, once you've been in recruitment maybe 3, 5, 7, 9 years, and we probably all need a recession, by the way. I know that word shouldn't be used at the moment, but I've been through one and we got through it. You know what, there's going to be good days and there's going to be bad days. And we actually live in a world— I hate to say— of rejection. We're either being rejected by clients, we're either rejecting candidates or clients. So we're always, most of the time, being said no. So you've got to celebrate the good times along with it. But perspective is a wonderful thing. You sort of go, well, where was I 3 months ago? Where am I today? And where could I be?

Perspective is huge. Yeah, when you really tap into that and understand that.

Yeah, that's what I say to every new consultant is think about where you were a week ago and where you are today. Yeah, we're gonna be a week's time and then fast forward a year.

So easy to forget that, isn't it? It is.

I'm gonna be ruthless in a year.

Yeah, yeah, it's so easy to forget that. Okay, and then the other parts of that then, mate, I think that's really cool that you profile people and it's amazing that obviously they've got their similar traits, isn't it? So I guess, and then what do you see in the people that you're just like, oh, if they like, you know what I mean, they're just sort of struggling to break that, do you know what I mean? I'll get a lot of messages where people are like, Hishem, I'm hitting the 150, 180K a year mark, I just can't break that 200, 250 mark or whatever. Do you get what I mean? Like, how— what are the common things or habits or whatever that you're seeing in people that are struggling to break through to that, that next, that next stage?

I think you've always got to be looking at your 80/20 rule, which is that, you know, people talk about 80% business from 20% of your clients, but you also need to be turning over 20% of clients quarter on quarter.

What do you mean by that?

So you've always got to be bringing new business in.

Okay.

And never settle on what you've got. We talked about it earlier, and that the assumption of I've got this covered—

don't get complacent.

Yeah. But you've got to be continuing to have those conversations with your clients. And, you know, one of our consultants has gone from being a high performer to being an incredibly high performer because we went to their office as a client and they went, yeah, so we've recruited, uh, 40 people last year. 20 were via Alex and 20 were another agency. And his face just dropped because he was like, what? Hold on a minute.

Yeah.

And so I was like, there's your assumption.

And because he'd never asked a question about, hey, yeah, you just assume you're doing like amazing.

Yeah. An assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups. Yeah, right. Yeah, Steven Seagal said that in Money Train. But you know, it was a Steve Seagal film, but it is, you know. And so when you get to 100, maybe in the UK, you know, what's that, probably 30 placements.

Yeah.

But you've got 52 weeks in a year. Why can't you make 1 placement a week, or 48 if you have an annual lease. Realistically, at any grade—

yeah, so break it down so it doesn't sound as huge, if you know what I mean.

Do by placements. For me, it's about doing by the number of placements you're making, subject to the market you're in, because your average fee will take care of itself if you're making sure you're protecting your terms. But if you're making—

doesn't sound as much, does it?

No. If you're making 24 placements in a year, honestly, you could double that by working with better clients, better candidates, and focus on better roles.

Okay, so you mentioned, I know, I know, um, I've already sort of asked you about it, but I guess what— because like, how much of a struggle for your guys in your office as a like business development? Is that fair to say? Like, that's quite a big challenge for a lot of people, right?

Yeah, it is for a lot of people. It was for me, you know, that first phone call.

So how do you help people with that? Because I think a lot, as I said, people always ask me about that. Like, so, and you just said there, the 20%, make sure that you always bring the new clients. These things, that's going to involve business development and these things. And I think one, like, thinking back to when I did it, I definitely got more, way more confident with it. But I can see that it'd be very easy to be like, oh, I've got all these clients that like want to give me time, these things. The thought of then being rejected more and having to do that is a bit like, nah, fuck that. But that's that complacency part.

But it's complacency, it's also drive. Yeah, you know, how driven are you and how much, what, what do you really, would you really want to put yourself out there and be, you know, people talk about the 90%, the 99%, the 99.9%, 999. Where do you really want— do you really want to be highly successful? Because if you do, you'll do it. If you don't, you'll sit where you are. Um, going back to new business development, etc., or else, um, you have to do it every day. You can't sit there and think my clients are going to get me through the next 5 years because they're not. Their, their conditions will change. They'll bring in new hiring managers, new line managers. So you can never assume that you've got it because you haven't. When you go to new consultants with new BD, etc., it's going back and saying, you know, this first phone call is going to be the worst one you're ever going make. Just be real, because it's going to be horrible. Horrible. They gave me the worst person I could have. My worst BD call was my first call, because they knew who I— they gave me the phone and said, this is the person we want you to call. And he lit fucking rip. And the bloke said to me, that'd be the worst one you ever get.

Really?

And it has been.

Yeah.

So obviously we don't do that to people there, but we remind them again, we've all been there, you know. It's not like anyone's walked in.

Yeah.

And here's all your clients. We've all had to get on that phone and introduce ourselves and sell. And we're like, oh my days, because you can hear, hey, it's good day, it's Andrew from Designing World, how you going? They're like, you hear that huff and you're like, righto, this is going to be, this is going to be difficult. And then obviously, I don't want to take too much of your time and I want to touch base. It's like, don't use those fucking words, um, just try and, just try and be real and try and be different. But just know, do you know what, you're gonna fuck it up more than you're gonna get it right in the first probably 3 to 6 months. But after time and after you've been speaking to these people, every conversation gets easier. Because I get phone calls from rec to recs now, they get new ones, and they sound terrible on the phone, the first one. But I said, all I say to him is, look, nothing right now, give me a call in 4 weeks. And this is what most clients will do to you. Don't look— I'm not interested, give me a call in 4 to 8 weeks, or don't call me at all. Okay, I'll give you a call in 4 weeks and check in because I know you're busy. Email them, tell them you call them in 4 weeks. Called them in 4 weeks.

Yeah, right.

I— we spoke 4 weeks ago, you were too busy to talk at the time, etc. else. Great, done. After— and I, I suppose some people just get afraid of cold calling, BD. I'm like, but every time you deliver, you're building trust.

Yeah, I had a guy on, um, who said that that really helped him. That really helped me actually when I'm really— well, yeah, this is exactly— well, okay, cool, I'll touch base with you, I'll call you in 4, 6 weeks. I'm gonna book it in my diary now. I'll book it in your diary.

Yeah, follow up, follow up.

That, that is— that helps a lot, doesn't it?

Well, it used to be 7 to 9 touchpoints before you got a buyer. Now it's 12 to 14 because we're so busy. Yeah, but my wife works internally, right? I've got friends who work internally. They've got PSAs, and people call them now and again and say, hey, I'm, you know, looking forward to getting the PSA. And they go, well, give us a call in a month's time and we'll catch up, or give us a call in 3 months. They don't call back. You're done. You've already failed.

Whereas if someone says, look, because if you call back and say, oh, we spoke briefly, that's again, you're elevating.

They will tell you Nothing right now. Okay, I'll call you in 4 weeks. But in the meantime, it was a hard-to-fill role. And then you call back 4 weeks and they said no, there's nothing there. But how we broke into some of our clients in construction, we spoke to them every 4 weeks. And when their job was advertised, I'd always get in touch and say, I'm just going to ask the question because, you know, I'm keen to work with you. Any opportunity to work on this role? No, Andrew, not right now. Don't take offense to it, it's just that they said at least they've replied.

Yeah.

But then eventually they pick up the phone and you've got the best company in Australia calling you about 3 roles. They're going to work with you exclusively. That's when you like win. Sometimes it takes 2, 3 years, but if you want to be in recruitment, that's how long it might have to take.

It's a long game in it.

Yeah.

How, um, just quick, I wanna, I wanna ask you some, um, things around, um, branding and stuff, because I think obviously as a business, I think from what I can see, you've been on an interesting journey. I think you, you've definitely got an, uh, a personal brand. Um, but just quickly, how does mindset fit into all this? Is that— do you know what I mean? Because I think that you're probably the first person that I've sat down with that have said openly that you've, um, what was the word that you used when you've profiled everyone? So again, yeah, psychometrics. Sorry. So like, where does mindset fit into all this in your opinion?

Because the mindset comes from drive. Yeah, right. So it comes from someone being driven to succeed, um, but it also comes from habits. You've got to do the same thing time and time again. Yeah, to get impact. So when people start doing sort of social media presence they do it once in a blue moon. Oh, I just checked that on LinkedIn. It's like, that's nice, when are you gonna do your next one? Oh, when I— no, no plan about it. The mindset is I want to build a brand. Yeah, but before you do that, what brand you want to build? Um, so you've got to think about that. It's habits. The mindset thing comes back to habits, which is I'm going to make sure I do the same things every day, because by doing them every day, I know eventually I'll get an outcome from it. And I'm not going to give up because it doesn't work after a week or a month. You know, you've got to continue.

How do you cultivate that in people? Because, you know, in today's world, it's like, put something out, you want likes on it straight away, you want comments on it. Like, you know, I mean, it's that whole sort of instant gratification thing. So how do you cultivate that in your people?

It's, um, allowing them to understand that the impressions— I think likes and comments are one thing, but there's people always watching in the background, right? So I always talk to people about the number of people who interact with our brand in a year. So last year, our brand was interacted with, or impressions, 113 million times.

Yeah.

So I was like, that's 4 times the population.

And remember, remember, they are people. That's not— that's like a number. Yeah, but they are people.

Like, that's 4 times the population of Australia, almost 5 times in fact.

Sorry, it's madness.

Um, and you're— all you're saying to people is that you're building awareness and presence. So when you do pick up the phone, yeah, now and again they'll be like, oh yeah, I've seen you comment.

That's what it's all about. It's about combining them both. Yeah, but then how do you— but then definitely, but then what about just in terms of like your people recruitment, in terms— not, not sort of the brand piece, like how do you cultivate that? Because you've got to have a long-term mindset, and that is what people really struggle with. Yeah, they see the light at the end of the tunnel, they can't see above the rejection daily and like the 5K months or whatever, do you know what I mean? So how do you cultivate that?

We've got to tell stories, haven't you? You've got to bring people on the journey. You know, you talk about your own— my own personal journey, I talk about Kelly's journey, Alex's journey. We all started as recruitment consultants. You've got to bring people because we've all been there.

Yeah, yeah.

And we are where we are today because some of us built these habits and we do it consistently and every day. But it's different for every— again, of course, we're all unique. My personal branding came about through authenticity, you know, being true and being open and being honest. So when I talk about things on LinkedIn or Facebook, whatever else, not really selling, I'm just telling my own story, just being honest. But that's what it's about, that's trust for us. How—

and so yeah, when I sort of look at your— yeah, because you, you've really done well with that, I guess. How has it helped you? Do you know what I mean?

It's given me purpose, really. Yeah. So when things are shit, you know, because one of the things that I got taught was like when things are really shit, look at what you're doing, because that's all you can look at, right? You can't look at what the other company are doing or what the market's doing. You're going to look at what you're doing. So when you start building your own brand, whether or not be externally or internally, yeah, just look at what you're doing every day and having that purpose. So whenever I sell now, sort of meet consultants, meet clients, meet candidates, because I talk a lot about trust and authenticity, when they meet, they're like, fuck, he's really honest. Um, but that means I'm being true to myself. And I think in life. Yeah, unless you're being— if you're not being true to yourself, you're playing, playing an act.

Yeah.

And there's no point in playing that. There's no point.

It's not sustainable.

No, it's not. You can't just exist. You can't play an act because eventually you'll burn out, um, or you'll be found out. And the worst thing is that you found out.

Yeah, 100%. I think that— I think for me that is the great thing about the online piece is like, if you are a shit recruiter, like, you can be exposed like that. And that's a great thing is like, you couldn't— the sort of brand that you have and how people perceive you. Like, you couldn't have that and it not be true because you're just one comment away of someone saying, Andrew, mate, you're lying, and everyone can see that. Yeah, you know what I mean?

Well, that's what I spoke about on LinkedIn. I said perception is, is one thing, but how you treat people in real life, that leaves an everlasting impression. Yeah, you know, they're two different things. Perception is someone builds up a perception of you and then they get in touch and then you do what you do. And if you don't deliver or you don't be the person that you, you, you perceived as, perceived that you're done.

Because that's the whole game with that. And I think seeing your sort of presence online and stuff like that, I think it's very much in line with what you are perceived as, which should be the objective everyone is like. When they do sit down with that candidate and client and they're like, wow, Andrew, you're exactly how I thought you was.

Yeah, yeah.

That's like so powerful and really valuable. But I guess the question that I always get, and I have my own way of answering it, is like— because I'm sure you get this— is like like, okay Andrew, but how does it make me more money? Has it made you more money?

Yes, made me more trusted. So people have come to us and engaged with us— clients, candidates, and consultants— because we do what we say we're going to do. So eventually, obviously, other people want that experience, etc. else. So has it made me more money? Well, I was 23 when I got into recruitment. I didn't have a degree. I was working in a tax office as a tax inspector. I'm 36 and I've got a business or two in Australia, um, and I didn't do it by being a dick get. I did it by being honest and being, you know, I exposed myself at times, etc. Else I was vulnerable. But you know what, that's fine. Yeah, because the good people will grab hold of that and make you better. The shit ones, they'll take advantage of it. Don't worry about it. Yeah, it's sort of, you know, there's a book, Give and Take, by Adam Grant. It talks a lot about giving. Yeah, just give, just be you. And that starts with just being you. Um, so when people say to me, has it made me more money? Well, I don't know, because I don't know what the other paths would have led to, but I'm pretty happy where I am right now. So it's worth it.

Yeah, no, because obviously You know how recruiters are like, well, look, I can pick up the phone and I know how that's going to go. Or the thought of obviously putting something online and they haven't done before, it's scary, which I'll take.

But you don't know, you don't know how it's going to go when you pick up the phone or post online. Just do it, right? Nike say every day, it's because it's still their slogan, or logo, sorry, or slogan, sorry. But just do it and don't worry about the outcome it's going to cause, etc., as long as it's authentic, as long as it's true and you're being honest. If you're doing something to gain straight away eventually you'll be found out. You'll be a taker.

Yeah.

I mean, again, you just give out, just give, give, give, and then the other givers will give out as well.

Yeah, honestly, that's, that's so true how I've approached it as well. But I just know it's hard to tap into that. It is hard.

Well, you've got your knockbacks as well. I've given you a bit of shit on some of your posts as well, but that's just being honest.

Yeah.

And the thing people need to not be afraid of is that, you know, keep— you know, you read a message from someone or someone comments on you, on your article. I mean, I did one article it got like fucking 3.5 million, um, sorry, a million likes and 50 million views. It was like crazy.

What was it about?

Um, always leaving the office on time. So did it about 3, 4 years ago, didn't expect to do what it did, and it was the most liked at one point ever. And I was like, oh my fucking days. And so many people commenting, but at the time I was receiving them all really negatively, that you're disagreeing with me, you're attacking me. Yeah, no, they're not, they're just offering their point of view. Yeah, and that's what—

you get better at that.

Yeah, and, and you do, because at first your hair's on your back and you're like, you're a fucking prick.

Uh, but The thing is, because it's coming from a person, not everyone's gonna like you. No, that's just part of it.

50% of the world ain't gonna like you. Yeah, people just— we're not all the same, we all have different views. It's why in politics we get the right and the left. Yeah, we've all got a compass.

Exactly. So I guess just, just to round that off then, with your whole journey with it and stuff, like, what's your sort of go-to advice for recruiters that are listening? Obviously I always give my own advice, and that's sort of the business I'm building now, but But what's your advice from your own perspective, being a recruitment director?

It's always hard to summarize, but I think just, just be honest about who you are. Um, you want to go to work every day and make an impact. And if you don't want to go to work every day, if you don't want to make an impact, then don't do what you're doing. In short, be honest about who you are and what you stand for. And try and convey that online. Yeah. And, and every part of your life, not just online, and every part of your life, just be who you are and be honest about who you are. And, you know, online, in an office, in a pub, whatever else. Um, so that's my advice to anyone in any walk of life. It's just be you, um, and be honest about who you are and what you stand for, where your weaknesses are, where your strengths are. Yeah, be proud of your strengths, just be aware of your weaknesses, but always work on your strengths because that's what will get you through. Yeah, that'll get you through as long as you're aware of your weaknesses at the same time.

Yeah, good advice, mate. Cool. So look, I guess what I always like to, um, ask people before we finish, mate. Yeah, I went quicker than that.

Um, yeah, it's only about an hour, isn't it? Yeah, well, I was gonna say, felt like time stood still.

Well, I was gonna say, so, um, what, what are you excited about then? What's going on in your world?

For me, I'm excited about the diversification of the business. We launched our public sector business back in, um, back in March, but when we also did that, we set our vision. Um, and our vision now is to be the most trusted recruitment agency in Australia. And I'm so proud of that vision because I, I talked to the consultants.

How do people receive that?

The first thing they say is, how do you build trust? What do you mean? Um, and I talk to people around, you know, you can try and say you're the biggest, you could try and say you're the leader, but can you quantify it? But you quantify trust by the metrics we talked about earlier about, you know, CV to interview, placement ratios, etc. But for me, I read a great book, How to Achieve Extraordinary Results by Focusing on the One Thing, and that's what I always talk about in life, is focus. What's the one thing? If you get that right right, everything else follows a result. And it's trust, because people want to trust people. But in recruitment, I could trust anyone at the start. But so that's what we talked about now, is our vision being the most trusted. And then what's been done since then is now talked about— we don't promote people by how much they bill, it's by how much trust they build. So I'm really excited to start seeing this journey where our consultants— yes, obviously there's a financial outcome, but interesting that the result happens as a result of building trust. So focus on that, focus on keeping your metrics low, keeping your feedback score's high, your replacement rate low. Do you know what? You'll make money. Yeah, you will make money. Whereas if you focus on just billing, you'll make money, but you might not build the best clients and candidates. So that's been something I'm incredibly proud of.

I absolutely love that. And so as I'm now working with businesses and individuals, one of the things I'll do is, um, I get them to think about what they want to be known for in their market. And one of the most— literally every recruiter said it so far are. Um, I don't want to be perceived as just another recruiter. And I think that— and then, and then when we're talking about what you do want to be perceived as, it does come back to what you're talking about there— trust, these things. So I'm really excited to see how this all levels out because I think there's— there'll be a lot of people listening like, Andrew, that's just wanky, mate, shut up, what you're on about. Do you know what I mean?

What you want to say to people is what will you define as success? Because what you'll find is some people will talk about the money that they bill, the money that they earn. But the issue then you've got to ask them is, okay, what about the trust? What about when things go tight with your clients or your candidates and are they going to come back to you when, when they're not looking for people as much as they do? Yeah. And what I found was that the most trusted recruiters in my career, the clients have always looked after in the good times and the bad times. The ones that just took the piss and were just about the money, they're either not in recruitment anymore or they've had about 5 jobs in that time.

Yeah.

So the wankiness, it might come across as that, but actually if you think about it, it all makes sense, which is if you've got low metrics, low replacement rates, high retention rates, high rate, repeat business rates, you're gonna make money. Yeah, absolutely.

So the trust, the vision, I love that. That's amazing. What else is going on?

Um, I suppose obviously the new, the new brand, the new business there, um, that's obviously a big thing for us as well. Um, and me just moving more into the role— I became managing director of the business back in July. Um, so learning about being an MD and not a recruitment consultant every day is always a challenge because I have high urgency, I have high energy, but I have low abstract reasoning. So I've actually got to really think about things sometimes. So this stuff comes naturally, me and you. I could listen to the cows come home. Yeah, but when someone says, right, let's talk about strategy and planning and execution, I'm like, I can't— kill me now. Yeah, so learning about me and my strengths and weaknesses, that's another really exciting thing as well. And don't get me wrong, going through another down— they're going through a cycle in the market, seeing, you know, who flourishes, who doesn't, you know, seeing Kelly move into a state manager role and trying to, you know, rebuild a Melbourne business— they're all exciting things. Don't get me wrong though, I'm also shitting myself at the same time. Yeah, yeah, but it'll come, come good We can make—

well, look, a question I always ask people to finish off is, um, if you could communicate to, um, every single recruiter out there that would take Andrew's advice, they'd listen, it could be a phrase, a sentence, one word, one phrase, one word, it could be anything, it could be anything, it doesn't have to be one word, it could just be anything that comes to mind. If they'd implement your advice, they'd take it on, what would you say to these people if they're listening?

I think, you know, be open to feedback. And be driven to succeed. Um, when I think about how I've got to where I've got to, where we've got to, where we got to, it's because we listened to people around us. But we came in every day, like I said earlier, with that drive. Yeah, you know, want to make an impact every day because that's what it's all about. You know, you could have the worst day of your life, but you, at the end of the day, you get a good candidate, a good client, you get a job on, and it all changes. So just focus on making an impact every every day, whether it's big or small, and that will carry you through the bad times as well as the good times.

Andrew, mate, it's been a pleasure.

Been an absolute honor.