Anila Choudhury - From New York to London, how UK Recruiters have a HUGE opportunity to nail the US!

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm in Nice and early, and I'm joined by the wonderful Anila Chaudhary. I did pronounce that right, didn't I? You did. Yeah, perfect. Who is currently a team lead for a global IT recruitment business who has specialized in the Microsoft technology space for the last 7, 8 years. That was all right, wasn't it?

That was perfect. What a great intro.

Amazing. I was just practicing for the last 2 minutes. So Look, Anila, as I was just saying, where I always, always love to start is, um, how the hell did you get into recruitment? Let's start there and talk about that story, because not only are you American— yeah, but let's start there. Let's start there. How'd you get into recruitment?

Well, first I'll apologize for my accent. Um, no, I'm just kidding. So I had no idea what recruitment was. Graduated from college in the States, and basically it was a terrible economy, markets crash, nobody can get a job.

Really?

It's 2 AM, I'm on Craigslist, and I see something that says—

What is Craigslist?

You know, you can like buy and sell furniture, you can find apartments, like, okay, just anything.

It's like Gumtree?

Yeah, kind of. And I guess back in like, I don't know, 2010 era, it was like a much bigger thing.

Really? Okay.

And it's about 2 AM, I'm applying for every job under the sun, have no idea what I want to do, and I see something that says make $100K in your first year sales. Classic.

And I applied. Is that literally what the job ad said?

Literally, yeah. You know, it was like, make $100K in your first year.

Oh my God.

Uh, doing what? I don't know, like cleaning floors maybe.

Obviously $100K drew you in. Yeah.

And I went for an interview, um, with a company who's now absolutely massive called, um, Frank Recruitment Group. At the time they were called Nigel Frank.

Yeah, yeah.

It was like 10 people in what looked like if you've ever seen the movie Boiler Room. Yeah, it was just like guys in suits on the phone, really had no idea what it was.

Was she the first girl?

No, they had a couple of girls there, but— and they were in like really nice, you know, dresses. And these guys just look like straight out of a movie, like very Wolf of Wall Street, pre the actual movie Wolf of Wall Street. Um, and I came in, I interviewed, and they just told me how much money I could make.

That's all they have in time, like that's it. Especially when you're coming out of college, right? Because you're going to be in some serious debt.

Yes.

And it's just like money, money, money, money.

That's all they said. And they're just like, oh, you have a great personality, you'll do really well. And my director there was British, and my dad's English, and I was born here but grew up in the States. And turns out the company's based in Newcastle, where my family's from.

Whoa, that's cool.

So we just talked about that for 20 minutes. They called me back that afternoon, offered me the position, and I signed a contract and started on Monday.

Wow, that's exciting.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. So, um, before, before that point, you accepted, so literally you had no perception of recruitment whatsoever?

I thought it was like an HR function that like I'd be helping people get jobs, and I kind of didn't understand how I was making that much money.

Because how is— because from what I understand, and the American people that I've spoken to, is like recruitment is, is perceived in a different way. And over in the States, right, it's, it's more of a credible position or more of a credible industry than it definitely is perceived here in the UK. Is that a fair assumption, or—

Yeah, absolutely. I think when I thought of recruitment, it was more of an HR function, number one. There's— it's a much more, like, less of a salesy role, really. Yeah, it's like helping people. They don't emphasize the BD side. Most American agencies are split 180. Yeah, which is also different. And then, you know, in the last sort of, I guess decade, it's been like the British invasion. And we guys, we kicked you guys out and then you came right back to your recruitment agencies.

Yeah, definitely. Okay, well, let's break down those first couple of years. I'm sure you always like to do. So how— obviously you got told how much money you're gonna make. How did you do in your first year?

Um, really well. I don't remember exactly what I built, but I know it was close to $200K.

Really?

Yeah.

That's not fucking bad, is it?

I didn't know it wasn't bad because we didn't get targets. There was no like, you have to hit this number. It's like, just do 2 deals a month. And I think I was— I probably did about more closer, like 1, 1.5. Yeah, if you average it out, deals a month. And lunch clubs, um, club trips, uh, they used to read our paychecks out at our desk when it was payday, and it would be like, you know, Michael, base, like, Dan, $20K.

And really, yeah, it's mental.

It was the wildest experience. I mean, I'm still friends with a lot of people that I worked with, and a lot of people that I worked with are still there. I spent 4 years there. Yeah, but my first year was all— I had the best team lead. They were dominating the space. We were making money hand over fist. It was like we used to throw cash around at the office. Like, it was, it was an insane environment.

Yeah, crazy. So that— I mean, you definitely, uh, did better than I did because I built $24K in my first year.

You know what, I heard you say that in your last podcast.

I'm just— oh look, I think there's no point being trying to lie about it. So many recruiters out there people just lie about how much, like, they've made. It's like, what, what's the point? Um, so, okay, that's really interesting. Well, look, let's, let's talk a bit about that because I think in the UK market, yeah, if you have— if you do a £200K, that's seen as you're doing, you're doing quite well, right? But to do that in your first year— so was you— was it, was it— was you just delivery, or was it— no, no clients as well from day one, or—

they didn't have a delivery team at the time. Everybody was 360.

Okay.

And if you don't— if you don't have the fear of BD because you just assume it's a part of your job, you don't get as paralyzed going into it.

Okay, that's interesting. Um, I think especially here, coming here, what you're saying is if people know that BD, business development, and client acquisition is part of their job, what, from day one? Yeah. Then when it gets to that point, that— yeah, no, that's really interesting.

You just pick up the phone, you don't even question it. And we were really taught, don't look up at clients and CIOs like they're in these high positions.

Don't put them on a pedestal.

Exactly.

You are on top of that. At the start. But again, it's because I had like 3, 4 months of delivery, right? And then it was like, right, client time. And then there's like, oh fuck, yeah, that's scary.

Yeah, but paralysis by analysis.

Yeah, no, yeah, no, that's, that's really interesting actually. I like how the way that you've put that. Um, so 360 from day one.

Yeah.

And you went straight into the Microsoft tech space. What— okay, tech, tech— I mean, there's so many tech recruiters out there. Yeah, right. So I guess firstly, did you do— how did you get up to— because there'll be a lot of people listening who might are in the tech space and might maybe a year, two years in, like, how did you get up to speed with what's going on and those things? Like, how did you learn about the space and understand the people that you're, you're speaking to?

So we had a really good training program and they taught us the technology, but the biggest thing was it was just get on the phone and ask your candidates everything. And because there was such an emphasis on no fear, no fear, like you're the wolf, you know, they're the lamb. Yeah, that you kind of just—

you're the wolf, they're the lamb.

Yeah, like for everyone. Oh my, I was like, I don't know, 24, walking around like I own the place, you know, just swinging. Yeah, so yeah, it was, um, so we were really lucky. But for me personally, I just read everything I could. I was on every Wikipedia page, just Googling things.

So you had that within you from day one, like to, to take your own time and just do as much as you can to give you the best possible chance?

Well, yeah, I mean, I think because I really messed about in uni and didn't study that hard, and all my friends were like in med school and law school, I felt like, no, I'm gonna be rich. Like, I just told all my friends, no, I'm gonna be really rich, guys.

Really?

And I was such— just a— like, I had a terrible desire to be successful that I didn't care. And I was still average. I mean, there were people there their first year who were doing a lot more than me.

Really?

A lot more than me. And so I had it in me that like I wanted to be the best. Never quite got there, but if you, you know, shoot for the moon, you land amongst the stars, all that cheesy stuff.

So no, definitely. Okay, cool. So another thing on, um, on that bit then, I'll get quite a few questions around it, around it, is, um, so you've already— like, BD is, is a challenge for a lot of people, right? It's quite scary. So I guess any advice— you've already mentioned one thing, but any other advice around the BD part where if someone is a bit early on to help them get over that fear, or etc.? Because obviously if you're getting it drilled, obviously I don't think there's many people now saying you're, you're the wolf and everyone else is the lamb.

Recruitment's changed in the almost decade I've been doing it.

Yeah, exactly. So no one's drilling that home from day one, do you know what I mean? So like, have you got— obviously through now your whole experiences, have you got any, have you got any like advice for people to get over that fear of picking up the phone to clients and prospecting and those things?

Yeah, I would say call really high-level executives as candidates.

Nice.

So, and that way get them on side, speak to them, find out what's happening in their own job search, or get them to talk about what are you doing in your position.

Yeah, I've done that before. It works. It works really well. All of a sudden you're stroking their ego and going, oh yes, I have this 120K job. Exactly.

Exactly. Well, the biggest thing is that it's human nature to get your guard up when you feel like you're being sold to.

Yes.

You know, when anybody comes up to you trying to sell you something, immediately you're on the back foot. Right?

For me, I'm not, but everyone else— the reason why I'm not, it's like I'll always give time when I'm not in a rush or anything for the people on the street who are selling stuff, just because I fully respect what they're doing. Yeah, but I'll tell you, obviously, yeah, everyone is—

that's unique, I'll be honest.

But no, but I totally get what you mean. That doesn't mean I like to be sold to, because at the end of their sales pitch, I'm like, look, I just want to give you some time and I'm not going to give you any money, but I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I'll tell you, respect what you're doing. Do you want a job in recruitment? But no, um, no, yeah, I totally get that. Yeah, everyone's got their guard up if you're trying to sell to them. Yeah, yeah.

And And also speak to candidates who work at that company and then just find out about what's going on. For me, I always just look for 3 pain points within the business. So even if someone's not hiring, if you go to any business, Hoxo for example, and someone identifies 3 areas that you guys—

Business challenges.

Yeah, business challenges.

Yeah, that's smart.

It's easier to go in with the sell. And I never used to call and just be like, oh, are you hiring? It was always like, I have a candidate and I heard you have an issue with—

So prospecting a candidate. Yeah, I always just got a lot more success with that.

Yeah.

Okay, that's really smart. So basically what you're saying is leverage your candidate network, which are a lot more— or leverage a candidate who's going to be a lot more receptive because you're not selling to them, you're helping them because you could potentially get them a salary increase or a new job or whatever.

Yeah.

And then leverage that in a certain way.

And you have a reason for the call, you're providing them something as opposed to asking them for something.

A reason for the call is always— yeah, it's always difficult, that part, isn't it?

Yeah. And I think the biggest— and we can probably get into this more— but the biggest difference is with US recruitment, um, I was just a lot more direct. It wasn't like, oh, how are you? This is who I am, this is my background. They don't care who I am. I'm 24 years old, what do I know? I was like, I'm calling you because I know you need this, I have this, do you want it? No? Okay, when are you gonna want it?

That's interesting.

They used to make us sell a pen in our job interview.

Shut up.

I swear on my life.

Oh my God, that's cringe.

Yeah, I know, it's, it's so old school. And I remember when he asked me to sell him—

this is actually in your interview process? In, in my interview.

I only interviewed with our head of America.

What's going on here? Like, did they watch the Wolf of Wall Street? It wasn't even out yet. It wasn't out then. Like, what the fuck is going on?

It was so old school. And when I started interviewing people, I used to ask them to sign me a pen. I swear, because you learn based off, you know, what you had to— the hoops you had to jump through.

Sign me this pen. Jesus Christ.

I did terrible, by the way. I definitely failed it. They said they'd never hire me if I did it again. I never would have gotten hired to record that.

Okay, cool. So, um, She was there for— did you say 5 years?

Uh, 4.

Yeah, just 4 years. Okay. I think I saw on your LinkedIn— so did you start in New York and then you went to Texas?

No, so I was in New York the whole time. Texas was the market that I did. And when I was with, um, Nigel Frank, they were only one office in, in New York. There was like 20 of us. We were like 120 people globally, really. And I think now they're like 2,000. So, um, it's, you know, I was there for a long time. Still consider it kind of where I grew up.

Throughout that period until you left and come to the UK, yeah, was you always a billing consultant or was you a manager at some point, or was it always just a billing consultant?

I got up to principal because principal, team lead being sort of the same level, and they were like, well, what do you want? And I was like, money. They're like, then you stay billing. So I got up to principal, but I was, I was overseeing a team of sort of 5 and helping my manager a bit more than mentoring. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, then what, how long was you doing that for?

Uh, probably about a year.

A year?

Yeah.

So towards the end?

Yeah.

Okay, let's talk a bit about before then, right? Was you a good biller?

I, I think I was a good biller, but looking back now, I could have been a lot better. I think I let a lot of things distract me and sidetrack me.

Really?

Yeah, you put your feet up a little bit. You're making enough money and it's like, I could do more work and make more, or I could do the bare minimum.

What was, what was the, what's the best year that you've had?

I was just shy of 400.

Really? Yeah, it's not bad, is it?

It's okay.

And that was in, um, the America— when you was in America?

Yeah, that's when I was in America.

Okay, okay, cool. Well, let's talk a bit about that. So clearly you've had an increase in what you've done, but you also, looking back in hindsight, realize actually I could have made— I could have built even more than that.

Yeah.

So let's break down that a bit. Firstly, what do you put down, like what sort of things, and you— did you change or did you start to realize if you did more of that enabled you to increase your billings or increase the, the, the success that you wanted?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is when you start having a little bit of success, it's very easy to put your feet up and do the bare minimum because you're getting pretty good results.

Yeah.

And I'm not great at self-motivating when it comes to sales. I kind of need somebody hovering over me a little bit. Yeah, that— and I was used to that old school micromanagement, a manager being like, what are you doing now? What are you doing now? Everyone hates it. I'm probably one of few recruiters who are like, I love that.

And is that because it keeps you on the path that you need to be on? Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Okay.

So the biggest thing for me, for anybody out there that is struggling at all, is find out what kind of management you need and ask for it. If you go to your manager and say, listen, micromanagement doesn't work, it's demotivating for me, and then you're getting good results, they'll get off your back. But I used to go to my manager and, you need to be all over me. You know, if you see me just sitting around or taking 10 coffee breaks in the day, you need to come grab my ass and say— yeah, so you're just quite easily distracted. Yeah, like you have the worst ADD that you'll have.

Really?

Yeah, like, what were we talking about?

Okay, cool. So that's interesting then. So that, I think that's really good advice. So, um, right now look at how you are being managed. And also I think a big part of that obviously is management, but then also being held accountable, isn't it? Because a lot of the time now there's also— there is— that even management is a challenge now, isn't it? It's like, oh, I can't be a micromanager, I can't do this, I can't do that. But if I'm a biller, then it's like, again, it's like being willing to ask for help, isn't it? So it's like, right, okay, so I achieved this this year, but I want to get to the next level. Obviously that is going to come from me. However, who can help me get there? So I think that's really good advice. Look around your office. If it is your manager, if it is the biller that you've always looked up to, then make sure that they know that you want that help or to essentially hold you accountable and understand where, they can see your blind spots, do you know what I mean? I think, I think that's really good advice. So make sure that you've got the right management and ask for it, right?

Yeah.

Anything else?

Um, and one thing I didn't do, which now in hindsight I wish I had, was I'm extremely competitive. So if someone does better than me, I just kind of shut down and want to compete with them. Whereas I wish I'd gone to some of those guys who were billing a million dollars plus and been like, what are you doing?

Because I wanted to do that.

I didn't do that because I just had a big ego and just thought, well, no, really, I don't need to ask you anything.

Yeah, I think you knew it all.

Yeah, I was young, I was in my 20s, and I just did not want to ask somebody or admit that, oh, you're way better than me.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I think if you, uh, if you're, uh, like the old Anila, quit it.

Stop it.

Stop.

Don't be a loser.

Yeah, don't. I think, I think, no, I think that's fair enough. Obviously we'll probably talk a bit about how, how you come to realize that and those things, but I think Again, it's good. You have to have that humility. And I think I've always quite easily, I mean, well, it was easy for me to have that end of year one, because I was like, fuck no. There's got to be something better. What else can I be doing? But if you're doing well, I think it's been a common theme when I've asked people, when I've asked people when they've done really well or when they've seen people in their business who have million pound billies or whatever, it's like, what are some of the common things that you see in them? And it is that they, they don't think they're the best. They don't think that obviously, um, the world evolves around them and those things. So I think if you are listening, then as quickly as you can, like, make sure that you're comfortable with asking for help.

Absolutely.

Because it's only going to benefit you and your career, right? So make sure you get a manager right and ask for the right management that you want.

Yeah.

And then also be willing to ask the people around you that are at the level that you want to be or whatever, right? And be willing to say, what are you doing? Or have you got any advice for me? You see what I do every day, whatever, um, any advice for me?

Yeah, yeah. And then I guess the third thing would be, I worked in an environment where we were not allowed to be creative, so I never put out like interesting content or repost an article that I saw that related to my industry. And I think that that is something that candidates are looking for even more now.

Yeah, we'll get into that. Yeah, let's, let's really talk about that because again, as you know, it's something I'm really passionate about. So the other— so what I also wanted to ask is, so then when you got to that piece where you was, um, started managing, did you want that then? So you said you just wanted money.

Yeah, I, I was really unsure of what I wanted.

You wasn't sure?

Yeah, I wasn't sure. And I probably should have spent more time asking what the both paths look like and which one made sense and which one I could do for a little while and move into. I just kind of listened to whoever was like, okay, we're gonna put you in this. And I was like, yeah, okay, yeah. So I moved—

it seems like the natural progression, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I moved markets, moved to another team because I was like, well, that's like a promotion, as opposed to thinking, you know, this one market, you do really well in it, stay in it, manage, move up. So I was—

so in hindsight, would you have took that— would you— would have— would you have took that job again?

No, no, I would have— I would have stayed doing what I was doing.

So let's talk a bit about that because I know there's a lot of people who are listening to this who end up at that crossroads, right? It's like 'Okay, so I've been a really good builder now for the last 2, 3, 4 years in this market. It's really going now. However, my boss is saying, well, why don't you start building a team around you?' And those things, right? So what— through your experience— so do you manage people now?

Yeah.

Okay, cool. So through your experiences then, like, how can you— any advice on someone to try and help them make the right decision? Obviously you're prone to not make the right decision, and you're not going to know until maybe you try it. However, anything that people could benefit from to try and make sure that they make the right decision if they come to that sort of cross path, the, the cross paths?

Yeah, absolutely. I think in that sort of situation where there's a fork in the road and you can go in either direction, really sit down with whoever is leading you, your team leader, your manager, and ask them to describe what both paths look like. Because a lot of people will leave billing really quickly after 2 years of doing well, thinking, oh, I've done well, so manager is just naturally the next progression. And it's not always. I mean, you're— if you want to have a long career in recruitment, I mean, you can be billing for 40 years if you want. And I think people just think, oh, in order for me to move up, I have to move into management. And that's not always the case. That's a mistake I made. I took it on before I was ready, and then I hated it and went back and kind of stumbled my way through it, really. So I think the best thing to do is sit down, see what you like, and see what you're good at. And there's not just two paths. You can be an account manager, you can do different things. It's not just billing, not billing, and that's why you haven't recruitment.

And is there anything around— surely you want to I, I didn't get to that point, but my manager used to talk to me about being open to management, all those things. But I think, I think, I don't think it's good advice to have someone, if it's your manager or whoever, be honest with you and say, this is why I think you have these strengths, or I think you'd be a good manager because, yeah, because if he's telling you, and then I think you'll be a good manager because of this, and you're like, no, no, that, that's totally wrong, I'm not actually strong there.

Exactly.

Do you know what I mean? I think there's got to be a honest conversation of, one, this is what it looks like. Yeah, you are— you might get a higher base or you might be able to earn more. However, this is all the shit that comes with it. This is all the new shit that comes with it.

Exactly.

And then it's— and then it's like, okay, but also this is why I think you'd be great at it.

Yeah.

And then if that doesn't resonate with you and you're like, you know what, actually he's right, he's got a point, or she's got a point, then yeah, you— I think that that's probably a fair—

I think the biggest thing that, that is every recruiter's biggest takedown is ego. So I want to get into manager because of the title, really, because of why I thought it was like a more powerful position. I know, it's just like— but you know what, I'd like to be honest.

Who was you trying to compete with?

Like, no, I just thought, well, I was really career-oriented and I just assumed if you're, if you're good at billing, if you're not getting promoted to manager, that must mean you're like lacking a skill.

It sounds like you had a point to prove. Who was you trying to prove?

Probably myself, honestly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think any good recruiter does have a little bit of that ego in them that's like to be the best, and that's what drives you, especially in like dry months or a bad year or a bad company.

Well, I think it's important you've got to have standards, right? You've got to have high standards. I think I totally agree, but it just seems like you constantly, through these early years, just really wanted to, to beat everyone.

Listen, I made all the mistakes, so everyone listening can learn from my mistakes. Be smart. Really? Yeah, I can admit my faults. I'm a big girl.

Cool. So you, um, so you got into management Yeah, 5 people. And talk to me a bit about that then, because so you said you hated it. Why did you— why did you hate— did you hate that period?

It wasn't that I hated that period. I think I just— my sweet spot was, was billing, and I like doing that because I could see numbers on the board and validate my success. Whereas I think I'd struggle to do a job that wasn't quantified, because then how do you really say if you're doing a good job or not, if your team is happy? Well, if they're not billing anything but you're really nice to them You know, like, we're not running a charity here. It has to be that perfect mix. And I was probably a little young and a little naive and not professionally or personally mature enough to do that. And I let my ego run me a little bit and go, okay— I mean, the team and I got along well, so it's not like the ego ran the team, but taking the position in the first place. So in hindsight now, so you took it from the—

coming from the wrong place.

Yeah, I took it from the wrong place. Your heart, your heart really needs to be in what you're doing. Management is a totally different thing than just billing, and being a billing manager, as we all know, is the hardest job in recruiting.

Yeah. So did your billings take a hit then when you did that?

Oh yeah, totally took a hit. And every time the team would do a deal, I was really happy for them, but I was like, you're jealous. I want to be hitting the gong. Yeah, I want to be hitting the gong. Yeah, but it's okay to admit that. And the thing is, I should have gone to my manager and just said, hey, you know what, I realize— yeah, I just want to, you know, I just want to be billing. Yeah.

So then, so then, okay, and then after, then, and then And then after that you come to the UK.

Yeah, so what happened was one of my old directors and I were chatting and she was like, listen, you have a British passport, like why don't you just move to London? And literally I remember this, my dad over here, this, he'll die. I said to my dad, well Dad, I'm moving to London. And my dad's like, why? Because Michelle told you to move to London? You're just gonna pack up and move to London? And I told him, watch, within 3 months I'll be there. And then I flash forward and I was in a car with him driving to JFK with my life's belongings in 3 suitcases, moving to London.

Really?

Yeah, that was it. I mean, like, hand on heart, that was the truth.

Yeah.

Wow, 3 months.

That's interesting. And obviously you've never lived, lived here before, right?

Not since I was 5, 7. Yeah, I mean, spent 20 years in the States.

Okay, so then now let's frame it up a bit because I think a lot of people can get a lot of value through you being— the lights are just flickering.

Yeah, I know, I was like, is this on purpose?

Um, let's Okay, so then now you are— so how, how big is your team now that you manage?

So I'm building out USS from scratch, so right now it's just me, but I will be hiring onto the team and growing that.

Yeah, okay, cool. So, so basically, as you said, so now you're still in the US market, um, after doing UK and Europe for, for 2 years.

So I left, I left the US market for 2 years. That was the whole point of moving here, was My whole reason for moving to the UK was, um, London is most saturated recruitment market, most mature recruitment market in the world.

Yeah.

If I can come here and compete with the best recruiters in the world, then I'm going to be so much better when it comes time to go back to the US.

That's interesting.

And it kicked my ass.

Really?

Totally.

Let's talk about that then. So I think that's because— what I think, because I think— well, I think it's fair to say that I've spoken to a lot of recruiters recently in recruitment businesses that are looking to, um, set up in America, right?

Yep, everyone.

And, um, I think a lot of people are taking the approach of the, the incubator model, right? Yeah. So essentially what that is, is you— let's say over the next 6 months you're going to focus on the US market, but you're going to service it and deliver it from the UK, right? So I think let's talk a bit about— so So let's talk a bit about why it did kick your ass and why it was obviously very difficult.

Yeah.

But then let's talk about your sort of perspective of the different nuances of the American market to the UK market, the Europe market, and what the difference are. Because I think that is— I think where some people really curious is, how do people feel about me making— I mean, a lot of people didn't know anyway in the EU markets and those things from the UK, right? But I guess, how do the US market take it that I'm a UK recruit in UK? Placing American people and those things, right? So why was it so difficult then, the, the last couple of years?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing was, uh, I only knew how to do recruitment in one really specific way, and we were really indoctrinated with this is how you do recruitment, there's no deviating from the process, and that's it. And then when I came here, I was trying that approach, and I think because I had London as my market, not just like all of the UK, um, it's very PSL-driven, um, there's a lot of HR function and responsibility, which I was like, what is HR? Like, I've never spoken to an HR person.

Really?

Yeah, a lot of like—

would you go straight to the hiring manager? Always, always. Yeah, always.

And I could not believe how much in the pocket of HR they were. Well, I can't talk to you, but I was like, but you need this candidate, I have the candidate, I don't understand what's— like, literally my brain could not understand why he was saying no. Wow. I know that to A lot of people listening might be like, that sounds ridiculous.

Like, no, no, that's interesting. That's really interesting insight.

I didn't know. And I just constantly kept getting in trouble, and my CEO was like getting calls like such, pissing people off. Really?

Really?

And, um, learning to like take HR people out for like a coffee. I was like, but why? Yeah, what are we gonna like, just kind of sitting down, shooting the shit? Like, I didn't understand that concept.

I was like, no, I just want you to be pretty direct all the time.

Yeah. And so that was a real learning curve. I got a lot of people who were like, are you in America? Like, where are you?

Where are you calling from?

I was like, no, I'm down the street. Like, I'm in the city in London. And then also it's such a saturated market that I would speak to a candidate, think I had like a great, you know, rapport-building conversation, call them 2 days later and they'd be like, who are you? Because like 30 recruiters had called them in that time. And I could not comprehend.

It wasn't like that in America.

No, not at all.

Really?

Oh my God, not like— so different. We can get into the details about that, but there are so many things. I even wrote them down because I was like, I talk about that for like an hour, how nuanced and different the market is.

Really? Okay, so you, uh, you've been used to just going, being direct. Yeah, not, uh, pussyfooting around HR and making friends and all that, when really you're just like, are you hiring? Yes, I've got this person.

Yeah, what are friends?

Okay, cool. And then also, yeah, I mean, look, it makes sense that I think if I was a candidate in the market, I mean, how often do you get an American person call you, right, an American accent if you're in the UK? Not very often.

Very thick New York accent.

That's what I mean. So I'll get that. Um, okay, cool. Was there anything else, or was that—

um, yeah.

And then also, sorry, you said that the fact that you speak to a candidate, you've got the right skill set, and they feel like you build a relationship with them.

Yeah.

And then it's like, oh fuck, he's spoken to like 5, 10, 15 other recruiters.

Yeah, and the thing I wasn't also used to is kind of being treated like, like a, like a, like car salesman. Like, not that there's anything wrong with that, but like that, that mentality of you're just selling me something. Yeah, your job is not available.

Candidates and clients.

Yeah, like, like kind of like I was just this annoyance that was calling, whereas in the States I felt like I was— recruiters are treated much more like a real function that add value.

Wow.

And so yeah, I think from a not just an ego perspective, but like a career perspective. I was like, well, this is weird. But really, it made me such a better recruiter because I was forced to adapt, right? And it's not about what you're doing.

I was gonna say, what did you do to adapt?

Um, well, I sat down with anybody, you know, any L&D person within the business that could help me, and I was like, what am I doing wrong? And it's really hard for some people to take criticism. I struggle with it.

I need it.

Yeah, yeah. Beat up Anila, de. And I just forced them to tell me you know, what was wrong with calls. Yeah, be honest. How to market map, how to get around, how to handle the objections that I'd never heard before. Yeah, because an objection like, oh, this is the wrong candidate or not the right skill set. Well, okay, then what is the right skill set? But an objection like, you have the right candidate, but I'm still not going to work with you.

Oh, that's annoying, isn't it?

Oh, that was—

I mean, you haven't been used to that.

I'm not. I'm probably still not used to that.

Yeah, so annoying, isn't it?

Yeah, so that was a struggle, definitely.

Okay, cool. So let's talk a bit more about that then. So you've learned through that. So then again, how has your performance been then over the last 2 years? Like, obviously you went from 400K.

Yeah. So the first year doing the UK was definitely a struggle. I think what helped me was because I was still doing Microsoft Dynamics, I knew the product so well that I was able to build credibility with some more senior candidates. And I was just like relentless. Like, I would stay till 10 o'clock in the office emailing.

Yeah. Is it contract? You do a perm?

No, so I do perm. Yeah, yeah, which is, um, I don't know, I, I personally think maybe a little bit harder. Um, yeah, from a candidate perspective, because they, they're not just gonna like answer a job advert, or they have the recruiters they like working with. Where I think with a contractor, if you have a great opportunity, they're like, I don't care which recruiter it comes from, I'm gonna go take that contract more a day or whatever. Exactly. They're much more money driven.

Yeah, yeah, again Did you perform? Obviously your performance take hit then.

Oh yeah, yeah, I think it definitely would have. I still, I mean, my directors would say I had a good first year. I hit my target.

Really? So it was, what was that?

It was £150,000. I did a little bit over that, you know what I mean? Somewhere between like £150,000 and £170,000. Um, pounds. And so, you know, if I hit my target and all that, I thought, I thought I was okay. But then they switched me to the German market.

Really?

That was really tough.

Really? Why'd they do that?

Um, bigger fees and just thought like, oh, this is great, like we'll just put you in a market and we'll just double your billing. Not quite the way it went.

Really hard. What was— because I know what was difficult about that, um, language barrier.

And then already being an American doing the UK market, even though it's the same language, there is a massive cultural barrier. Um, and then moving to a country where the language is completely different, the customs are totally different. Although Germans are considered very direct, I really struggled to build rapport, and I was like a bull in a china shop.

Really?

Yeah, it was tough. I only lasted 8 months.

Really?

Yeah.

Fair enough. So I guess let's break that down a bit before we go into the nuances of sort of the UK, EU market you've experienced to the American market. I think that's really valuable. So I guess through that time there, and I think there's probably a lot of UK recruiters who predominantly listen to this that have gone through all what you've experienced, right? And it's, I mean, look, it's fucking tough, isn't it? It's fucking difficult, right? So I guess through that then, it seems like you're a bit more aware of ego, happy to, to take constructive criticism and these things. So what, what did you— what have you learned coming from America to then the UK market? That— what did you, what did you really learn through that adaptation and these things, right? Talk a bit about that. I think that'd be interesting.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me was, um, learning how to fail. Um, I always had a really, uh, narrow view of failure, as you've you've messed this up. You—

oh really?

Yeah, you've completely— you suck at this, and now it's time to get out. Um, and obviously I didn't have that option. I've been doing recruitment for like 7 years. I wasn't just gonna go get a new job. Yeah, yeah. Um, so learning how to fail, ask— really having to go ask for help and say, this is not working. And it was the first time I went and I just told my director, I cannot do the German market. This is not for me. I'm not happy doing this, and it's making me fall out of love with recruitment. Can I switch my market? I didn't think I had that option. Really? Because I again spent 4 years at a company.

Yeah, because you think you'd fail. You think you failed if you did that.

I just thought I was gonna get fired. Yeah. And they were like, not— they weren't like that at all. It was like, okay, we understand, what can we do?

So again, it comes back to being willing to ask for help.

Yeah, I think that's the, the number one lesson. And, and moving markets or saying something's not working for you does not mean you failed at it. It just means it wasn't—

again, you've got to be honest, haven't you? I mean, look, recruitment is a fucking hard job. And if you're, if you're doing it in, in the market or whatever, that you're— that's new, that's new to you again or whatever, and you're really not enjoying it, then I think, yeah, speak up about it. Otherwise you'll be prone to getting a message from a rec to rec and then just moving job. Yeah, I don't know, do you know what I mean? Then you're a lot more prone to those types of things.

I think, um, a lot of times people do just switch companies because they think, oh, I don't like this market. And realistically, a lot of times the market can work for you if change your methods. But the number one thing is you have to really want to do it. And it's also okay to not want to do a particular market. You're allowed to say no, I don't want to do this. Yeah. And which I didn't. I should have said no from the very beginning, but I, I blame that on myself and nobody else. And it's okay to say, yeah, I, I, shit, I didn't do a good job. I can admit that.

Yeah, cool. Let's, um, let's talk about the, um, the different nuances then, because I think hopefully a lot of people that are listening will get a lot from that. So from your perspective then, being, being obviously growing up in America, yeah, recruiting American market, what are some of the biggest differences? That obviously the difference between the UK recruit, being a UK recruiter, recruiting in the UK and EU market compared to recruiting in the American market.

You hear no a lot less. So you hear the word no a lot less.

Oh really?

Anytime now that we do love that. Now that I've come back to doing the US market, the biggest thing is anytime I message, I get some like the worst, most most, you know, like uncreative message to somebody. Like, hi, I heard you're looking for new opportunities. They're like, hi, Nila, yeah, I'm free at 3 PM.

Like, is that actually the case?

Swear on my life. Oh my God, it is like, I mean, a world of difference. And what's funny is I spoke to a candidate the other day, um, that was saying, oh, it's so funny, you speak to American, I just get calls from all these British guys.

Really?

Which made me laugh because it was not like that 5 years ago at all. So there's like a British invasion. Absolutely.

Yeah, definitely.

But, um, yeah, so I think people are more receptive.

People are much more receptive.

Um, you You don't need to go through HR. I mean, there are definitely big companies where you have to do that, but typically if you do go directly to line and you're adding something of value, they will chat with you.

Really?

Even if you just call to talk about the football game. Oh, the Giants lost last night. The Giants always lose, but you know what I mean?

Really?

Yeah, so it's nice to also go back. I've always recruited outside the state that I'm actually from. So I'm from New York, but I've never recruited for New York before. So it's not as though you need to be from there. British recruiters that are calling Americans, I mean, they're really receptive to it because we love your guys's accent. Yeah, we don't know the difference between like a posh accent and one that's really cringe. We're like, oh my God, are you, are you from England?

So yeah, oh my God. So then, and then, and then again, and then so if they're that receptive, have it. If a Brit, if a British recruiter can help someone and they're obviously not in America or whatever, that, that's not a problem.

They don't care what, what location you're based in. There's like very other than the time difference, depending on what kind of state you're recruiting for, there's no real difference. And I think that because it's a really— it's not as saturated of a market at all, even though you would— there's, I don't know how many recruitment companies in the US.

Yeah, no, I think I heard, I heard this because I went to an event not too long ago about— it was called Going Global. And I think there's, um, don't hold me to this, but I think, I think I remember someone saying about 40,000 recruitment businesses in the US. Makes And obviously, how much of a population is the US?

350 million.

Yeah. And in the UK, there's around 30K worth of recruitment businesses, and the population is a lot smaller. Exactly. So that makes sense. Okay. So essentially what you're saying is people are a lot more receptive. And I think, I think a big part of that, which is what we can go into, is the perception piece, isn't it? So why, why, why is, why, why do you think the perception of being a recruitment consultant in, in the US is different to the UK, do you know what I mean? What, what's your opinion on that?

Because the industry hasn't been what it is in the UK for as long in the States, I think there's still a perception you're, um, doing a job that's really of value, whereas I think in the UK recruitment's considered a sales job, right?

Yeah.

In the US it's considered an operations function. Really?

Yeah, mental.

So I think that's like the number one thing. I was really having to think about this the other day. And then number two, um, because there are a real mix of like internal recruiters and external recruiters—

they're called like corporate recruiters.

Yeah, yeah, they're called corporate. Yeah, corporate recruiters. And they make like a lot of money, really, you know what I mean? It's very different thing versus a lot of internal recruiters here I see are managing agency PSLs. They're doing their own recruitment, so not downplaying that.

They're also seen as failed recruiters as well.

Which I don't think is a fair analysis at all. I used to say that. I definitely used to be like, oh, you can hack it. That's why you're here. Yeah, back in the ego days. I'm older and wiser. I don't know about wiser, older definitely. Okay. Yeah. And so I think that's the number one difference, lack of big, strong 360 agencies out there. So I think a lot of candidates get called by delivery people who are just like, okay, I'll pass your CV on to an account manager. When you speak to somebody who's like, no, I spoke directly to the CIO, this was the feedback, no, I'm gonna do this. So there's a lot more power within a 360 recruiter, which candidates aren't used to, so they really respect that.

Okay, and then to wrap that up then, what's— if I'm a recruiter right now and I'm recruiting in the Microsoft Dynamics market, and there is— I'm speaking to my clients and there is a real opportunity to get into the US or start making placements in the US, yeah, what's your advice for people to sort of have the best possible chance of having success there?

Uh, first, uh, call me because I'm hiring. Um, no, I think the, the number one thing I would say is the US is a really, really massive place, you know, 50 states, 350 million people. Don't pick up jobs just anywhere and try to place into them. You will not do well. Pick one specific geographic area, location, map it out, and work that way. That's going to work a lot better for you. And also because the fees are so massive, you don't need 100 clients. You could have like 6 buying clients for a year and bill like $350,000. So it's, it's, it's such an exciting prospect. And also, for any recruitment business that is doing it, you can absolutely build an incubator team from here. Nobody cares where you're based as long as you're picking up the phone and delivering good candidates. They do not care. And yeah, you don't need to be on a PSL.

That's exciting. So those listening, I think that's really good advice because it's— I think because the UK mindset is like, it is going to be different. So then to think, actually, I can really, really just specialize in this particular area. Obviously, normally if I just specialize in London, that is super saturated, you get what I mean? Whereas obviously in America, if it's one particular state, Texas or whatever, yeah, really map that out and then go, well, actually, these 20 companies I want to work for, and really gun for those. Because as you said, if you have 10 to 20 paying clients that you've built really good relationships with and you really just dominate that state, then, um, you can, you can build very, very well.

And I think with the US also, um, building a really strong relationship with your candidates— I know this is for everyone, but, but especially with candidates. I mean, I know the name of my candidate's kids, when it's time for Little League, who's going to win.

So I think, yeah, so I guess what you're saying is the fact that candidates are really receptive, like, don't take that for granted. Like, really get to know the people that you're helping. And again, As I think, which will lead us on quite nicely, is that that's what people— you need to be doing now in the UK and the very saturated market, isn't it? That's going to be your point of difference if 100% you, you do make the time to connect with these people and just not, okay, you're looking for a 5K increase in your salary, do you get what I mean?

Yeah, call people back even if they're not the perfect candidate because eventually they're going to have a skill set that you need and they will remember you.

Yeah, no, that's, that's really good advice. Cool. So, okay, What I want to go into now, which would be really cool because I know you're super passionate about it, is obviously the personal branding piece.

Yeah.

So what's been your experience with that then, and what's been your perception as you've gone on? Because obviously you've been in the recruitment market for nearly a decade now, and you went from selling the pen to doing real deals. Exactly. So like, yeah, exactly. So what's your perception on it, and how are you seeing it change, and how it can help you as a recruiter, and what's your opinion on it?

As recruitment becomes a lot more transactional, especially in the States— I'll speak more about the States— I think one of the things that I really did well was— and my client, or sorry, my managers used to always laugh at me, you spend an hour talking to one candidate— but I would get really good relationships with candidates. And I've been out of the US market now for over 2 years, and as I'm coming back and calling candidates and clients, they all remember me. They remember me, and I'm really flattered because I know how many other people call them. And I think that's because I work to build really strong relationships with them even when they couldn't give me money or something of value.

So the long-term mindset.

Yeah, it was a really long-term relationship mindset. And, um, branding— whatever brand you decide to take on, I kind of took on like recruiter with a heart, you know what I mean? And so that was my approach to any call that I would make, you know what I mean? What do you need? Like, if somebody was like, oh, I'm traveling 5 days a week and I have 3 kids, I get to know what's going on with their kids. Why do they need to be home? Things like that, and they remember that. So that was my approach to building my brand. But even now I'm still trying to figure out, well, now that I'm coming back to the market, what am I going to do to differentiate myself? Because in the 2 years I've been gone, I don't know, like at least 25 new dynamics agencies have come up, people I've never heard of before who are making good money.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's really interesting how you put that. So that's, as you quite rightly said, your reputation. That's your reputation, what you're talking about, right? Yeah, right. So for me it's like, and this is what I started doing when I was in recruitment, and now I've continued to do this, massively helped me. It's just about, it's about bringing that online and not just keeping that in the one-on-one conversations and the one-on-one meetings. Do you get what I mean?

Yeah.

Because I think that, that's what recruiters have obviously continuously done, is they've worked their socks off to build that reputation, and it has been in those one-on-one conversations and the networking events and all those things, right? So for me, it's like, you should continue doing that continue doing that. However, you need to now think about how you can then bring that online and share and share with more people how you're helping people, what your— why you spend time to talk to people and those things. You know what I mean? So what's your view on that? And like, how are you going about— how are you thinking about that as a, as an experienced recruiter?

Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I never used to put content on LinkedIn because that my, for whatever reason, kind of mindset of my previous firm was, uh, if you write something and somebody doesn't like it, well, that's bad press for you. And so I was so nervous to write anything, especially anything that was like decisive and would make people take a stance either for or against it, that I would wind up pissing the wrong person off who could be a hiring manager. And now I'm like, you know what, that's fine. You're gonna piss some people off. Go talk about your opinions online because people will remember the ones that are continuously coming up on LinkedIn. LinkedIn's Facebook for some of these people. I mean, they love scrolling through that feed. Yeah, scrolling through that feed every single day. And it's not just about like putting a meme up like, that's— I'm hiring, you know, people are sick of that stuff. But actually writing things or posting things, um, if you write a small article about what's happening in your market and it's written well, people are going to read it.

So is that how you're going to approach it? You're going to add that to your tools?

I think so. It's nerve-wracking because, you know, a lot of people, oh, your content's crap, or But the thing is, you can't stop. You need to just try to get better at what you're doing, and that's what I'm trying to do, and learn from other people in the market who are doing it.

Yeah, yeah, I think— no, I think that's really good. And I think all I'd say is like, just, just, just don't overcomplicate it. I think what, what I started doing was very quickly just started talking about online the conversations I was just having as a recruiter. So it was— I know it's very generic, but it's because I had about 5 conversations with candidates who never got interview feedback. That was one of the first videos I did about why I think it's so important to get interview feedback. And that's why I'll continue to— even if it's the worst feedback ever, I'm going to give it to you because I know how important it is that you've given your time and all those things. And then also, then it's like, um, what I also started doing a lot as well, which would be difficult because you're in the UK, but I always used to go out of my way to do things with the candidates that are placed in those things. So I started when I could, when it wasn't controversial, I'd take a picture with them and all those things, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's just, um, It's just be— just trying to— obviously you don't have to be that creative. I think, I think recruiters are in a really, really, really unique position to create content and share their opinion because you're speaking to the businesses and understand the businesses' challenges within the market, and then you're speaking to the people that work in the market and understand their challenges.

Yeah.

So if you can be the soundboard for both of those and go, well, today guys, I've actually had 3, 4 conversations in this bit and these types of businesses all having this challenge, what what do people think and how can we overcome this, blah blah. I spoke to 10 candidates this week who've all said that working from home would be really beneficial, and this is why. Do you know what I mean? So I think, I think that that's the thing. It's like, obviously you're doing it anyway. Yeah, you know, I mean, like you said, you're getting to know these people, you're getting to learn, and it's just about bringing it on. Yeah, exactly, bring it online and it, it works.

Yeah, I actually emailed, um, like my top 10 clients and asked all of them, well, what is the most annoying thing that recruiters do that make it that you don't want to speak to them? And so I'm just like writing something that I'll put up on LinkedIn. Um, and some of the clients are like, really good point.

And that, that's what I started doing towards the end of recruitment. I always give this advice is, yeah, you're speaking to the people every single day that you— that's your audience that you want to— yeah, awesome. Because obviously no one— well, obviously when you got into recruitment, no one's going, yeah, so, um, think like when you're qualifying that person, yeah, talk to them about what apps they spend the most time on or what social platform they're on the most time, or like what they hate about recruiters, you know what I mean? Because again, it is that mindset where if you're on the phone and you speak to a client and you've got all the normal recruitment stuff going in your head, but also you're going, oh God, that's the third time someone said that bullet point content idea, bullet point content all the time, do you know what I mean? And I think that's a great way to do it, just come up with lists of content ideas. Yeah, from the conversations you have and all, actually ask these people. Yeah, you know what I mean?

I, I mean, if they're going to be your readers, ask your readers what they want to read about. Exactly, you know, and do a video if that's cool, do— yeah, whatever.

Write something. Yeah, I think exactly that. I think I think how you're talking about in the approach is exactly that. It's, it's not about you. Yeah, it's about the audience.

Yes.

And you're talking to your audience every single day. So it's like, really take advantage of that. And I think the, the smart recruiters will do that, and they're the people that will be willing to share stuff online. Um, and you will have a point of difference and an advantage, right?

Yeah.

Um, so look, before we, um, wrap up, I always like to talk about mindset. Yeah. So you've mentioned a few times that you realize your ego is getting in the way and all these things. So I guess, was there a moment where you realized like, fuck, okay, I'm, I'm probably being— I'm getting in my own way here and those things? Like, was there any particular moment that, that happened or anything, any, anything worth talking about there?

Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest thing was when I came here and I just thought, well, I did well before, so I'll do well again, and really held myself to such a high standard. One of my first, like, it was coming to almost 3 months and I hadn't done a single deal, really, and I was starting to feel really, really bad about myself and I was like, God, I'm not—

How'd you deal with those? How'd you deal with that yourself personally? How'd you deal with that real shit time?

Yeah, I just relied on my friends in recruitment who would, you know, be positive. But the biggest thing was I went to my CEO and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

And I said, I have the humility.

Yeah. And I said, I'm scared I'm gonna fail. And just to say it out loud, it's okay to fail. And I was just like, I'm scared I'm gonna fail. And he looked at me and he said, you won't. But if you do, it's okay because there's always next month. And just be— I don't know, the biggest thing for me is just to be able to kind of say your fears out loud.

Yeah, so that helps.

Yeah, that helps. And, um, and then when I didn't do so well in the German market, it reminded me that, um, you know, anybody— you know, one day you're top dog and next you're at the bottom of the leaderboard. So, you know, like, leave— check your ego at the door and come in and try to be better than you were the day before. And the biggest thing was, now that I'm writing content and doing some other things, it made me fall in love with recruitment again.

Yeah.

And if you're out of love with what you're doing, you're never going to be able to deliver well to your clients, candidates.

So you didn't really— so there was any other habits or anything that you found yourself doing quite a lot when you blanked for 3 months and like you literally felt shit? Or was that it, like talking out loud, sharing how you found— instead of bottling up and those things? Was there no other tactics that you found yourself doing to cope with the fucking shit months in recruitment.

I've read a lot of self-help books. I know it sounds silly, but like things that— because I get a lot of anxiety all the time. I've listened to some of your stuff on mental health and anxiety and stuff, um, but for me it was just reading, um, different pieces, whether it was articles or, or full, you know, books about how to manage when you feel like you're failing. And so for me it was like, you got to fix your mindset, you know. I had a bad attitude and I was not going to go— because when I don't do well, I'm really hard on myself, right? So I had a bad attitude.

Yeah, I'm really hard myself as well. Yeah, it's easy to do that, isn't it?

Yeah, 100%. I was just like, well, I suck.

So any, um, no, I think that's really good. And I think again, that's— look, you've got a— you've got to be willing to learn yourself, to equip yourself with the, the right tools and right habits to go through the shit times, not in life, and also obviously in recruitment, right? Because it's fucking difficult.

It's hard.

Yeah. And, um, especially when I remember, yeah, it took me me like 2 or so months to make my first deal. But then, yeah, I mean, not billing for 3 months is— that's fucking difficult to deal with, you know what I mean? Especially when you've gone from billing whatever you was.

Yeah.

And the thing is, like, there will be a lot of recruiters that will make moves and it will be really difficult. So I think, again, it is— hopefully more and more people can— because not— this is what I always say is like, no one teaches you how to deal with those shit times.

No.

Do you know what I mean? It's just like, yeah, pick up the phone. There's no, there's no conversation around, well, actually, like, maybe you should go for a walk, or I don't know. There's no conversation around, Hishem, if you are feeling like nothing's working, you've been rejected and yeah, being told to fuck off all day, like, maybe try this, do you know what I mean? So was there anything that you discovered through that period then that really helped?

Yeah, the biggest thing was, um, go home. Like, I used to work till really, really late at night. I burned myself out, and then I, I would get crappy sleep, and I'd wake up in the morning and be back up at my desk at 8.

And sometimes you just need to go I've done enough, I'm going home. Can you switch off there?

It's really—

don't strike me as someone you can switch off. It's a really, really hard moment, especially in recruitment.

Especially recruitment. I'm a New Yorker. I mean, like, we're wired for, like, you know, anxiety, stress, and just like a sense of— yeah, yeah.

How did you try and switch off then? Did you, like, turn all your emails off when you got home? Did you—

I, uh, switched email off, um, at— as soon as I left my office. Like, just really easy. Weekends, no email. And then I read somewhere that you need, um, one job that keeps you in shape, one job that keeps you creative and one job that makes you money. And so that's kind of the mantra that I live by now. So I have all those three things. I go to the gym at lunch every day. I write as my creative outlet.

That's really simple.

Recruitment makes me money. It's not my, my life anymore.

Yeah. So what I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned money quite a few times— so what— no, that's cool. But what I'd be interested to get your thoughts on is when you did make money and you did do quite well, $400K, I'm sure that, that was pretty good, a pretty good paycheck. That got shouted out in the office. He was pretty happy. Um, how did you feel?

No different than when I was making no money.

Yeah.

And that is the truth.

Weird, isn't it?

It's so weird.

I remember because I remember I got the biggest paycheck I've ever got in recruitment, and I was like, I looked at it, I was like, I don't feel anything.

No.

It's weird, isn't it? So I was curious to get that because you was like, money, money, money, money, but, and then when you actually got it didn't feel anything.

I was always chasing a dollar sign, or a pound sign, I guess. And when I went through the months or year or whatever when it wasn't going that well, um, if anything, I think it made me a better recruiter because I thought about what I was really doing. And if you're a happier recruiter, if you're coming and you like your job every day, you're just gonna do a better job instead of being like, oh my God, I have to do another deal.

So what did you learn from that? Anything interesting there? Because I think that's really interesting to talk about.

I learned that I'm not as money motivated as I always thought I was.

Really?

I'm really not.

What are you more motivated by now then? What have you realized?

Um, fueling my passions. Realize that like creating something, um, writing was a much bigger passion of mine.

Yeah.

And if I can integrate that into the job that I do that makes me money, I'm just going to be a happier person all around.

Um, and what about the people part? Like, do you get a real buzz of that?

Like, that's always been a buzz for me. I love my candidates. I've known them for you said, like 7+ years. Um, so keeping the relationships with the candidates and the clients I work with, coming back to a market, it's like being welcomed home. Yeah, it's just the best. I had a client tell me the other day, oh my God, where have you been?

Oh, that's class, you know. So I think that is one of the really, really, really cool parts about recruitment is generally I still speak to people that I'm friends with now, right, when I used to recruit in the market. And I think it is that people part that is, um, just really addictive, even though at the same time it's It's fucking horrible because it's those people that just can fuck up your day. Oh my God, yeah, heartbreak. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm— thank you for sharing that because I think, again, I experienced this, the exact same thing. I know there'll be a lot of people that do have these big, big, big, big paychecks and then I don't feel anything. And I think that's why I think it's really interesting now how recruitment businesses sell recruitment because I if they are leading with $100K first year, $100K first year, I'm not sure if that's going to excite as many people as it used to. Do you get what I mean?

Millennials and Gen Z are motivated. I read something really interesting that said that they're motivated more by the ethos of the business that they go to work for.

I've read a lot about that. Yeah, that's not surprising.

I don't think it's going to change recruitment. It is, because people are not— we're not now working in economies where we're like, oh my God, we have to get a job otherwise we'll be broke. People are like, I want to work for a business where I feel good about going to work every day. And that's going to vary And that's why each recruitment—

it's going to affect the actual, the type of recruiter that comes through the door or wants to work for you, and also the people that you're dealing with on a daily basis from a candidate perspective as well.

100%.

Interesting. Well, look, this has been fun.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Um, I always ask what, what you're excited about. Um, obviously seems like you're excited about going back to the US market.

Yeah, I mean, I love living here, so there's no active plans to move back at the moment, but doing this US market has been The most—

why do you love London, by the way? How, uh, so you lived in New York, do you say? Yeah, yeah. How different are they? Um, because I want to go to New York this year, like big time. It's on the list.

Oh yeah, I'll tell you all the good places to go. New York is amazing. It's very similar to London. I do think there's something that's a bit slower about the pace of London, really, because you get a lot of people who actually live like an hour and a half outside London who come into work every day. And with New York, it was always chasing the Joneses, like bigger, better.

Really?

Yeah.

And so, yeah, just a quick one on that actually. Yeah, because there'll be a lot of recruiters who get fucking spammed all day about Rec2Rec saying you can get a job in New York. What is— what do people need to think about? Because I actually lived with a guy who made the move to New York and yeah, he actually— he really suffered from anxiety, everything, and was like, fuck this, what the hell have I done?

Yeah.

So I guess any— from your perspective, like, if I'm a UK recruiter and I'm— and I've got this opportunity to move to New York, yeah, is there anything that these guys really need to consider before they take the leap to understand the difference?

It sounds so cheesy, but New York is like the hardest city to make it in, really, if you're from there. But if someone's looking for— they're bored, mundane life is just repeat every day— go to another country. And if it's— New York is an amazing place to move to, and it will make you a better recruiter. It'll open your eyes up to experiences that you've never seen before, the same way London has done for me. But understand that whatever anxiety level you're feeling here, it's going to be times times 10 in New York. It is such a fast-paced city. Everything, it moves at lightning speed.

Really?

That's— I mean, listen to how I talk, you know what I mean? I've only had one cup of coffee today.

Yeah, yeah. So, but then you can really feel that energy always, always in your face.

Always, always. And there are other cities too, but New York— I mean, I don't even consider myself American, I just consider myself a New Yorker, really. It's a different— it's a different animal, it's a different beast. But if you have the chance to go, go. Understand it might leave you broke and with a broken heart, but it'll be so worth the ride. Really?

Okay, I love that. Well, look, I always, um, ask people at the end, if you could, could, uh, if you could communicate to every recruiter out there, they'd listen and take on your advice, what would you say? What would you, uh, talk to them about? Could be a phrase, a sentence, a word. What would you say to all the recruiters out there?

If you're gonna do this, do it 100%. This is not a job, it's an opportunity, so take advantage of it.

Love it. Look, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for having me.

No worries, thanks a lot. Look.