Arjun Gillard - The commitment to mastering the billing manager role and adapting to a new market.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Arjun Gillard, who is the head of.NET at Understanding Recruitment, currently managing a team of 2 people and looking to grow in 2020 and beyond. Arjun, thank you for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

Um, looking forward to this one. Um, and as you know, where I always like to, uh, start, my friend— obviously we're talking before we started this, your experience in uni and doing archaeology. But, um, how, um, how, um, how did Arjun end up into the wonderful world of recruitment, my friend? How did that happen?

Um, yeah, so it was basically I didn't know what I wanted to do. Standard recruitment thing. Yeah. Um, I thought I was going to manage a bar after uni because I was doing that whilst at uni. Yeah. And, um, my dad sort of I had a phone call with him. I was like, yeah, I'm going to stay in York for a bit, manage a bar, see what happens. And yeah, got told to fuck off, basically.

Really?

Yeah, he said, um, he said, that's all well and good, but get a career. You're in, in stupid amount of debt, get out of it. So I was like, yeah, all right, made sense. So I just put high-paid office jobs into Google.

Really?

Yeah. And literally recruitment kept coming up.

Really?

Yeah. So I was like, what? I was like, what the hell is recruitment? Like never known about it. No one talks to you about that at school or uni or anything. So did a bit of research into it, had a couple of interviews in like Leeds and Manchester because I had a missus at the time in York and she was like, I'll get a job like around here.

Yeah.

And then I had one interview in London, came, came all the way down here.

Really?

Yeah, literally like spoke to them on the phone and they were like, I'll come down to London. I was like, right, yeah, cool, I'll get on the train. Stayed with my mum and dad and then, yeah, had the interview, got grilled for an hour and a half.

Really?

Then, yeah, then told to go away and have a coffee and then got offered the job like then and there, but told you need to accept like straight away, basically.

Really? Close? Yeah, it was literally like— What, like on the spot?

Yeah, yeah, it was literally like, oh yeah, we want you to join, but like—

It's like, yeah, you've got to accept it, otherwise the offer's not there.

Yeah, that's what it is, basically. Well, that's why—

that's how it felt like.

I had a couple of offers in Manchester.

Did you tell them that, like, obviously you've got a few things going on?

Yeah, yeah, I said, look, I've got a couple of offers in Manchester. But to be fair, like, I was pretty sold on it, really. And yeah, I was like, I was bought into what they said, so I thought, yeah, I'll take it. Hadn't told my girlfriend at that time, yeah, what was, um, what was going on. I just said, oh, I've got an interview in London. Yeah, we all went out for drinks and like I got a little bit drunk.

Yeah.

And, um, she called me about 9 o'clock at night saying, oh, where are you? I was just like, oh, I'm out with my new bosses. And she was like, what?

What? So she was not London, really? She didn't join?

No, she was still at uni. Really? Um, so yeah, I tried to make the long-distance thing work for— I think it probably worked for about 4 months, and then that was— yeah, that was about it.

Especially in that London recruitment life, mate.

Yeah, going out and drinking Thursday and Friday and then having to drive to York like on a Friday night if I didn't go out.

Yeah. And it's Yeah, okay, very quickly then, before we sort of unpack your recruitment career, how, um, how did they sell recruitment? Out of, uh, curiosity, what was that? What was the recruitment pitch?

Um, of course, thinking back a long time now, but it was, it was pretty much the standard, like 4 holidays a year, like, oh, you'll earn 40k your first year, like 80 your second, 100 your third, and and that you get a Rolex and all that sort of thing. Yeah, which me, like, I was what, 22? Because I did 4 years at uni, so I was just like, yeah, yeah, I want as much cash as possible. Yeah, I like the sound of that. So yeah, I was pretty, pretty interested in it.

Do you regret— do you regret going to uni?

Yeah, part of me does.

Really?

Yeah, because like, I was— well, part of me does and part of me doesn't. Yeah, because I was like 35 grand in debt or something. But I had a good time, like I met loads of decent mates, some of like still my best mates now.

Yeah.

And like I just went out and like worked in bars, got drunk and that. But I didn't— I basically saw uni as my part-time job and working in a bar was my full-time job. So I was doing like 40, 50, 60-hour weeks working in bars.

And then— no, I'm just interested. I never went to uni, mate, but as we were just saying before, like a lot of people, it's, it's a challenge, right? Parents want them to go to uni. Yeah, they feel like— a lot of people feel like they have to go to uni now. Obviously it's massively changing, right?

But yeah, that was a bit like me, to be fair. Like, my mum basically was like, you've got to go to uni.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I think I applied to one role, which was criminology, and then I was like, yeah, nah, I ended up, I ended up, um, staying at college for another year.

Yeah.

Do you remember, um, EMA?

Yeah, yeah.

So you basically, you got 30 quid a week?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Obviously, yeah, if your parents earned X. And, um, I stayed for a third year at college because it's the last year of EMA, right? What can I do? Yeah, absolutely buzzing, mate. And, uh, me and my mates did, um, a plumbing course.

Oh, interesting.

I know, mate. One of my best— no, one of my best mates is a plumber now, and that's his business, but Oh mate, that I would absolutely crumble, mate. But yeah, so I totally get that. It's hard, right? No, what you want to do and all that. I guess, do you feel like now recruitment is your career?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. I think that— I don't think there's anything that I'd want to do other than this because it is multifaceted.

Yeah, it's awesome.

It's marketing, it's sales, like, yeah, it's just everything rolled into one. So I think—

yeah, I love the fact you said that, mate. I think big part of the podcast is trying to make a dent on that, like making recruitment a choice, a career choice. Yeah, because this is a good career choice, right? Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Um, okay, cool. So let's unpack it for everyone listening then. So join that business and you work there for 7— was it 7 or 8 years?

Uh, 7— yeah, 7 and a half years.

So never worked in recruitment before, first job in recruitment, stayed there for nearly a decade. Yeah, it's a long time. Yes, don't see that many that often on CVs now in terms of working for a recruitment company for that long. And then obviously joined the company you work for now. Was it June or July last year?

July last year, yeah. Okay, cool.

So let's definitely unpack the sort of 7 or so years. So what was the typical route then? So you joined as a trainee, I'm assuming.

Yeah.

So on rookie, whatever, and then climbed the typical ranks of, I don't know, Portugal.

Yeah, so I started as a trainee. Yeah. Struggled as everyone does. Yeah. Took me 3 months to do my first deal. Yeah. Then was promoted to consultant, I think about 5 months in, then senior consultant 14 months in when I started to build a team. Yeah, straight away from that, which was intense.

Yes.

Didn't really know what the hell I was still doing, to be fair. Then, yeah, principal team leader, head of division, and then—

yeah, then when you left, you was head of the division?

Yeah, yeah. So I was head of— I was head of engineering and construction and then moved into SAP recruitment for about 5 months. As well. And then that's when I decided, yeah, time to change.

Just to help me out and sort of uncover that, so when you got to the head of part, how many people were you managing?

Uh, 10.

10, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was it, just your management sort of responsibility just increased basically and sort of evolved? Yeah, is that what typically happened?

Pretty much. So when I got to 10 people, I was off the phone, and then, yeah, so then I was just a manager, like growing the team, influencing, doing some BD and that sort of thing. But up until that point, I was always a billing manager, which to begin with I struggled with because I didn't— I couldn't manage my own time, and I was expecting to manage someone else.

So first year recruitment, yeah, always like to talk about it. How was that for you, mate? You did your first deal in 3 months in?

Yeah, so I did my first deal in January 2012.

Remember the candidate's name?

Yeah, what was it? Irfan.

Shout out. You always remember that first deal. Always remember it. That's class. So yeah, 3 or so months to do your first deal.

And then, um, yeah, so Jan 2012 to December 2012, I did £140K.

Really?

Yeah.

Which is not bad, is it?

Yeah, it's all right, to be fair. Yeah, all perm. Yeah, I was always perm. I did a couple of contract deals, but yeah, primarily perm. Yeah.

So what, what do you think enabled you to achieve that? Do you think, looking back or thinking about what, what do you think are some of the things that contributed to, to be able to do 140K in your first year?

I struggled my first year, like literally it was— I think they like pushed me to a point where they thought I was going to quit because I just, I was so crap for the first couple of months.

What makes you crap? What do you think made you crap?

I just couldn't speak to people.

Really?

Yeah, like I thought I was asking the right questions and I just wasn't. And then I wasn't, I wasn't doing the right things. Like I was, I was able to pull jobs with like multiple companies, but then I'd send like one CV, two CVs, and have one interview at like loads of different companies.

Yeah, yeah. And then you didn't give yourself enough opportunity.

Yeah, pretty much that. And then I sort of sat down with my director and just went through it all and said, look, work fewer jobs but work them into the ground. And then that's when it started to pick up for me, really. And then, yeah, I just literally did the same thing, but I was working half 7 in the morning to like half 8, 9 o'clock at night just to— yeah, just to get good. Because, yeah, I was just crap.

Really putting, putting the graft.

Yeah, I literally just put a shift in.

What, um, what, what, how, what, how many sort of jobs did you end up sort of typically focusing on then? What did it ended up sort of narrowing down to?

Mine, yeah, my aim was probably about I'd say I'd solidly work 4 or 5 a month and then aim to fill 3 or 4.

That's interesting. Yeah, I did share the podcast recently with a chap called Tom who says that he sort of always encourages his team to have like 4 opportunities per month, like 4 opportunities to, to make placement. Yeah, it seems like quite good, quite a good barometer. Like, and that's not just one interview in each, it's like solid amount.

Yeah, yeah.

Then do you still sort of aim for that now? Yeah, pretty much solid metric to aim for that gives you the best chance of closing off what you want to.

Yeah, pretty much. I still aim for 4 or 5 solid jobs a month with like 4 or 5 interviews at first stage, 3 interviews at second stage, and then I'm like, right, I should be doing at least something each month.

What, what do you think, knowing what you know now, what do you think makes a job a solid job?

Rules of engagement, we used to call it at my old place. So it's like actually having a hiring manager who's committed to hire. So like on, like just having things in place. So when you, when you qualify on the job, right? So I'm going to send you 5 CVs by 24 hours or 48 hours, whatever it is. Let's book in a time to speak through the CVs at this time. Like when you're talking about the job, when can you interview? And absolutely nailing down like specific days and interview times. And then like, oh, what happens after the first stage? What, like, the second stage, when's that going to be? When have you got booked in for that? Who would the person be meeting? And like, just truly understand what the hell is going on. Yeah. And if they're not giving you that commitment, I don't work it. Yeah. Because I'm just like, no, you're not serious about hiring. I'll send one or two CVs just to like see what it is. Yeah. And if they then come back committed, then yeah, fine, I'll work it.

Other than that, I'm just like, you're definitely not finding all that out at the beginning, are you? No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'll give you a job, mate.

Yeah, yes, let's go! Running around the office, I'm doing it!

Yeah, do you know what I mean?

I remember, I still remember when I pulled my first job. Yeah, I was like, cool, I've completed recruitment.

Yeah, I know, it's such a great feeling. Yeah, so no, I absolutely love that. And again, it like, it sounds simple and this may have came up in the past, but like, it's the basics that you've got to get really right. And if you're, if you're having If you're getting all those details with 4 or 5 businesses, 4 or 5 hiring managers a month, or the same sort of people per month on jobs that they're hiring for, yeah, there's even better chance that— and you can actually have a real good idea then that, right, okay, so I've got obviously a couple of people at first stage, a couple of people at second stage, and you've got an actual proper timeline then of like, right, this is, this is when it could drop and this is when it could place them, rather than not sure when they're doing the final stages, you know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly.

So is that something you live and die by now then? Yeah, pretty much.

Like, I Literally, I look at my calendar every day and I'm like, I've color coordinated all my calendar on Outlook so I know what candidates are interviewing on what dates. I'm like, right, cool, I've got this, this, and this. And if I haven't got like, if my calendar is not red with the category, I'm like, crap, I need to sell some CVs or I need to get some new jobs on.

And yeah, and then that also ties in, that also helps you understand where you need to be putting your resource and time.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly that.

Okay, mate, why didn't you quit in that first year then, mate? Because, um, 7— I mean, obviously when we're just chatting before we walked in here, working from home today. Yeah, 7:30 to 8:30 PM, mate. Didn't change that.

Like, what—

I mean, to be fair, I've heard a couple of times, um, sort of there's no sort of set, um, background that gives you the best possible chance of being successful in recruitment. But obviously working in a bar job involves fucking hard graft, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I've heard a couple of times like hospitality can be a quite good background because they've got that work ethic and these things. But why do you think you didn't quit early on? Because that, that could have prevented a lot of people quitting. Hear burnout a lot of the time now, do you know what I mean? Why do you think you didn't quit?

I think it was a combination of two things. It was personal pride. I just don't like losing, like I never have. I don't think— well, I don't think anyone likes losing, but it just I get that knot in my stomach when I'm not doing well. So that was—

you've always had that?

Yeah, I've always had that. I had a point to prove to like my directors because they like, they thought, oh, like I was gonna quit. It was like, it was almost—

why do you think they— why, why do you think they felt like you're gonna quit?

I think just because I was really struggling.

Really?

Yeah, I was just really struggling and I thought they probably thought, ah, he's probably just thinks it's too hard, he's gonna jack it in. But So that was a point to prove. And just like my mum and dad, I was gonna say, yeah, it was, yeah, it was mainly like, like having an Indian mum, it was almost like it was always, oh, you've got to get the best education, you've got to get like decent A*s, A's at GCSE, A-levels, that's gonna be great.

Yeah, coming back as a failed recruiter is gonna be even worse. Mum, I'm not a doctor and I'm a failed recruiter. Yeah, yeah, go away.

Yeah, pretty much that. When I said I was going into recruitment, she went, 'Fuck is that?' Really? Like, 'Why are you no doctor?' All right, be all right, Mum, don't worry, I'll make a success of myself.

No, that's all. No, mate, I love the honesty there. So just a real, just real personal drive is ever not to fail. I love that, mate. So did you, do you think, did you feel like you had like a second option, or like that was it? Like this was it, do you know what I mean? Did you feel like, 'Right, if this goes wrong, I'll just end up back in bars,' or was that not an option to you? It wasn't.

Yeah, it wasn't really an option for me because I'd moved from York to London, so I'd like left that bar life behind. Like obviously I could have got a job in London happened, but yeah, like, I didn't want to.

I wanted that high-paying office job.

Yeah, pretty much that. Yeah, the one I was kept Googling and finding out so much about it.

Okay, mate, so year 2 then, clearly obviously built up some momentum, confidence. So by that point you was a senior consultant? Yeah, senior consultant year 2. And so how— what sort of, um, enabled you to progress then? How was that measured? Was it just done on billings or was it done on sort of other things?

Yeah, it was, it was just billings, but it when we first started out, it wasn't deal value, it was number of deals you're doing. So I had to, I had to do 7 over 3 months, really, basically. But I mean, my first actual target to hit senior was literally just don't do, don't blank in December, really, like. And I blanked in December. I'd like, yeah, I think I had about 35 interviews and I was literally pulling my hair out. And then, yeah, that happened and they were like, right, this is what your target is. So pretty much nailed that in like 2 months and then got promoted. And then, yeah, started hiring a couple of months after that.

What— and did you want that?

Um, I didn't want it at that time, to be fair.

But that was just— that was the structure that they had?

Yeah, because it was like I was the first hire with 2 other people, so they wanted to grow. And like, they had been growing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was the first hire with 2 others.

Um, so there's 4 of you when you started?

Yeah, yeah, there was— yeah, it was 3 directors 3 other people, like a couple of other people in the business.

Oh, and sorry, obviously talking about X4 here, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're a big business, right?

Yeah, they're about 150 now with multiple offices.

Oh, what? And there's literally 4 of you in the room?

Yeah, yeah, literally that. Like, it was that— I think that's why I struggled so much, because it was like, it was an office environment and that was just small.

Yeah.

And like, when, when no one was on the phone, you could, you knew no one was on the phone. When you were the only one on the phone, like, you could hear— yeah, everyone was listening. And like, I could just tell when I fucked up a call, I was like, right, I'm off to the boardroom with like my director to go through that call. And the walls were thin and everyone could hear. Yeah, what—

that's tough, man.

Yeah, that was, that was a tough toughness, but I, I thrived off that. Like, I really—

not a good— you had nowhere to hide.

Yeah, exactly. So it's just literally like just get on with it, crack on, and just do better, basically.

Definitely toughed you up there. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, because obviously I just had a perception of what they are now, so I didn't realize that. So that makes sense since they obviously wanted to scale.

Yeah, exactly.

Arjun was obviously one of our early hires. We've toughened him up. He's gone through a lot of stuff that he's had to get through, so makes sense that you can now manage.

Yeah, yeah, loosely manage. To be fair, I did well with my first hire. Like, I got him hitting his lunch club like his first billing month. Like, he joined and then his next month got him doing 3 deals.

Really?

Like, yeah, he, he got off to a good start because he basically had my market in the North and Midlands and I'd already established like clients. Yeah, so I just basically said, work this role, I'll send that candidate.

Yeah, yeah, like, and how did it—

yeah, yeah.

So just to frame it up then, year 2, manage that whole time then as a senior consultant, and how many people Was it just the one person?

Yeah, it was one to begin with. I think I hired someone else towards the end of the year. Yeah, as well. But we went— we, we always had quite a good retention rate, but I just had a couple of people that like left.

Didn't work out.

Yeah, one like parents, I think parents didn't want him to be in London anymore, so he moved away. And then the other one wasn't that good.

Yeah.

Um, and then yeah, like then started to grow.

And what did the team get to then?

By the time I left, I had 20 people underneath me, like a mixture of trainees, consultants, team leads, really like business development people and that. Yeah.

So year 2 to sort of year 4 then?

Yeah.

What did that look like then? So by that point, what was it like, a team of 10?

No, that was about, I think up to about year 4, I had 5 people underneath me.

Really?

Yeah, year 4 it was me billing. I was always billing. I was always one of the top billers, um, just growing them, getting them good. And then, yeah, it was only after like year 4 that where I started to hire more and more people more regularly.

Yeah, let's just talk a bit about that for a second. Yes, I think, and look, I've never, I've never done the role, but you were, you always hear it, obviously billing manager being really difficult.

Yeah.

How, how did you, how did you maintain your billings while managing? And if you, how did you maintain that sort of top biller or being in the top 3? Whilst managing?

Just working longer hours.

Really?

Really, yeah, really and truly. And it was, it was that, but also being smart with my time, like with the jobs I was actually working.

Okay.

So like, if I just thought, yeah, it's not worth my time at all—

you really value your time?

Yeah, I just wouldn't work it. And I did, I did the same thing pretty much every day, like come in first thing in the morning, dial my leads, go on like the job boards, see what new candidates are out there. And then like BD or work a job that I needed to do. And then I just, I always set myself like I wouldn't go home until I did X or I wouldn't go home until I did Y.

And then let's talk about that then. And I'm assuming you have the same day plan.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What did a typical billing manager day plan look like then? Because obviously you're a billing manager now, right?

Yeah.

So what is it typical? What is involved in that day? How have you structured it?

So yeah, pretty much the same thing, like dialing my leads first thing in the morning.

Yeah.

Go now LinkedIn Recruiter, so save searches. I still use some job boards, so just basically go through all those, get my messages out.

Yeah.

Um, and then just think about what I need to do. So is it BD morning or sourcing morning for jobs?

And how would— what— how do you— how do you decide that?

I just— oh, how many CVs I've got outstanding with the, with the company.

It's actually like sort of pipeline and yeah, interviews you've got booked in.

Yeah, pretty much that. So yeah, have I got enough CVs out there? Have I got enough interviews ongoing? That's— yeah.

And how does, how does the management aspect fit into all this?

So what the— one of the people I'm managing now has got like 2.5, 3 years experience, so he's pretty self-sufficient. Like, I catch up with him, like, obviously we talk every day and that, but I have like 2 one-on-one meetings a week with him. That's literally it. Um, my new starter who started in January, um, end of Jan, he's already like not self-sufficient, but he's confident and competent enough that he knows what he's doing. So he sits next to me. So I'm just like, if you need help, ask me.

Yeah.

And like when he, like if he's mixing his search things up or if he's doing something, I'll sit and watch him. So because I'll just literally turn my head like that and watch him do it and then, yeah, then crack on with it. Yeah.

And then what about, what about, so that's now, but what about when you was growing that team? What did that look like? Because that's difficult.

Yeah, that was difficult.

Um, was it, was it quite reactive?

I think so. Yeah, I think so. Because I was, I was literally being pulled here, there, and everywhere. So like one minute I was doing internal interviews, one minute I was doing training, like in training new starters, next minute I had to do like call coaching and call listening. It was just basically what I did with sourcing or like my own business. Whenever I had time to actually do my own thing, I was just like, right, head down, don't talk to anyone. Yeah. And just literally—

did you communicate that? Like, look guys, like, if you need— if you like absolutely have to grab me, that's fine, but I'm, I'm going to be doing this.

Yeah, pretty much. I said it's like— I always said there's no stupid question. Yeah. But like, if someone was just like, oh, where's like— where's Oxford or something, I was just like, ah, like, yeah, shut up, basically, and just cracked on.

Because there's an element as well, obviously, when you're going through that process that you also don't want to be the comfort blanket for these people.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's like, if you— if they always ask you questions that they may know the answers to, but do you know what I mean?

I think, yeah, there was that. I've found that tough when I first started managing off that comfort blanket because the first couple of people, I literally poured my heart and soul into training them. And it— because it was— I saw them as an extension of me.

Yeah.

So I was like, oh, they need to be seen as good around the business and everything like that. So, um, yeah, but I think that may have had a negative effect on them in like second or third years for them when my team grew more and more and I was spending a lot of time with—

yeah, so that's interesting.

It is, yeah.

Can be hard to get that balance though, right?

It is, yeah. Because sometimes I think I— like, one of the mistakes I made, I went full tilt and didn't give them enough support from day one, and like then they really struggled through it, and then I had to pick them up like 6 months in, a year in, and that. So yeah, it's just literally— I always learn from my mistakes. It's just just like making them and then learning.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Yeah, yeah.

So billions-wise then, year 4 around now, what— so you like, how— what did you do roughly? Like, if you can remember, if you're like sort of in the top?

Yeah, it was 200. Yeah, 200 with a team of 5, 200 with a team of 7. I always hovered around 180 to 200. Yeah. Um, with my team, like when— yeah, when I had a bigger team and that. How—

like, that must be hard to do that when you go— yeah, you know what I mean? Some people can't even do that when it's just them doing everything. Yeah, that— all they've got to worry about is themselves, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Obviously, I know you said like you put in the hours. Yeah, but I'm just thinking if there's anything else there, like, did you— like, what was the setup? Did you have— did you focus— did you focus on clients and getting in the jobs, and then you had— did you— did it— was there a lot of splits that contributed to that?

No, it was all my own business. Really? We didn't— we didn't have sources. Yeah, I did everything. I didn't have resources. Everyone that started was a 360 consultant, like, from day one. Like, I was— yeah, you literally— you're speaking to candidates for the first week and then speaking to clients from the second week. Really?

Yeah, yeah. So that sort of circa £200 grand that you always sort of maintained and got, even when you're managing a team, that was all through, like, Arjun's relationships and you delivering, sourcing, clients?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone passed me over jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was collaborative. But yeah, yeah, it wasn't like we didn't have splits, oh, you'd get 25% of that. Like, yeah, at that, at that stage it wasn't like that. I think it is there now, but yeah.

But when you were growing that team, yeah, yeah, yeah, that must have been really difficult.

It was, yeah. It was just literally, it was just hard work, really. Just, yeah, just working longer hours and just literally being smart with your time. I was, when I was having more people underneath me, I wouldn't really work a row under 20%, 19%, that sort of thing. Because, and it was like £45,000, £50,000 salaries as a minimum, just because I was like, if I, if I can make one placement a month at £12,000, £13,000, that's better than— yeah, that's better than doing one £4,000 deal.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's interesting. I think that, that, that's the insight in there. I think clearly as you're, as you, um, progress in your sort of career, you can just really, really value your time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And as you said, back to sort of your advice and your process of working with hiring managers that are committed to you being committed to the right jobs, to you only working at set fees, that again, it's, it's valuing your time. Yeah. As you said, it gives you the best possible chance, and that when you do allocate resource, the, the resource that you put in towards it gives you the best possible return that you could get.

Yeah, exactly.

I think that's an interesting insight.

Yeah.

Um, so why, why do you think you sort of like progressed compared to other people around you? Maybe like, why do you think you got to the head of position? Because you just took the tip, like, so obviously that continued to evolve. You then got the head of that, that team, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Why do you think that is?

I think it was just because I was always like always willing to do things.

Really?

Like, yeah, I just, I was always there putting the work in, the work ethic. Yeah, just the work ethic, like at the AGMs, the first 2 years they introduced— well, they introduced a Leader of the Year award. Like, I won that the first year and then won it the next year. And that, yeah, just because of like the work I was doing and I was just always on hand to help people and like, yeah, just do, do whatever I could.

Where did that come from, mate? Where's that? How? Yeah, I think—

yeah, I don't actually know because I've naturally— I'm not an empathetic person, really. Like, yeah, to be fair, like I always say to like my friends and family, I'm like, I hate people. And they're like, why are you in recruitment? Because all you do is talk to people. I'm like, yeah. Um, I don't really know. I think it's— I think because I hired those people and I saw them as an extension of myself. Yeah, I want to get you good. I want to get you doing, doing well. So I think it— I think it was just a pride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just hold yourself in high esteem and hold others around you in the same category, really.

Do you think if you were to go back and start that whole process again, do you think you'd do anything differently?

Yeah, I'd realize— well, I've realized now that there's different ways to manage different people. Like, when I first started managing, I was basically managed— like, I was basically managing how my director managed me, which was kind of like with an iron fist, really. Yeah. And it's like, don't get out of line, do this, do that.

Yeah.

And it's my way type thing.

Yeah.

And I think towards the end of my career there, I was thinking, right, there's different ways to manage people. Some people need like an arm around them, other people need a stick.

And you, and you just had to work out yourself?

Yeah, pretty much, pretty much that. Yeah, it is. It's almost like it's a light bulb moment, like when you finally figure that out.

Sounds simple, doesn't it? But yeah, when you're like— especially as you said, like, you was in that business early, got managed by the directors, so everything is going to back up. And like, obviously you've done well there, so it's like everything sort of backs up that, well, if I manage them like I got managed, well, there's a good chance that they're going to be— yeah, they'll do well, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

So did you just literally just learn that through trial and error, like, just through like, well, actually, this is— this isn't working?

Yeah, I just used to trial a couple of things and just see how it did, how it did work or didn't work. I was like, I probably won't do that again or really, yeah. And then just, yeah, just kept going. It's only more recently now that I've taken more of a desire to learn about management. So I listen to like, yeah, I listen to a lot of Audible now because I hate reading. Yeah, like I used to like it, but I just classic don't have the time to, yeah, to do it. So I stick my headphones in, or like when I'm driving to work now, I listen to like podcasts or like management books, leadership books, all that sort of thing.

Actually trying to learn about it?

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

So yeah, so I guess as time, it's like, well I mean, how can I improve and how can I get better? Yeah, I mean, that's a great thing now, isn't it? I think like if you were to search for that or look for that at the beginning of your career, yeah, how much would you have found? I'm not sure.

Yeah, probably not a lot.

Yeah, I mean, so I think that's, that's such a great thing. Um, so what, what I'd really like to sort of do now, mate, is I guess just a final part on that, mate, because like Obviously you did really well, you progressed the ranks, worked your absolute socks off, but how, how, how was your sort of mental and mindset piece through that, do you know what I mean? Because obviously I know now you do a lot of posts, what was it you do, like Friday post, like mindset?

Yeah, yeah, Wednesday. Yeah, yeah, I just do Happy Mindset Day on a Wednesday night.

Yeah, I guess back then, mate, in hindsight, where like mentally working long hours, tough. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Drinking a lot, like, you know what I mean? Like, what, how, how was, how was your mindset and how did that contribute to, yeah, success there, do you think?

Like, looking back on it, I wasn't in a good headspace, really. Like, yeah, it was like— I thought I was enjoying my time. Like, I was going out every Thursday, most Fridays as well. Like, still going to the gym and everything, but not in as much as what I do now. But it was— I was stressed constantly.

Yeah.

And I think just tired all the time. And like, I think then the little things that people around me would do would just make me snap. Or really, like, yeah, or just like make me in a mood.

Yeah.

And it's like, it's not good for you, that, at the end of the day.

So, um, yeah, how did that start changing?

I think I'd— it was more just growing up a bit, really. Yeah.

How old are you now?

Uh, 31 now. Yeah, yeah. So I think when I started to get to about, I'd say 27, 28, was when I was like, right, I'm not going to go out every Thursday, Friday. Yeah, it was mainly Thursdays. I'll come back one day.

So you just started to just start working on yourself a bit?

Yeah, pretty much that. And then, um, but I bought a flat and my missus moved in with me and it was grounded. Yeah, grounded me. Yeah, she, um, yeah, she literally— not that she said you're not going out or anything, but she was like, oh, why don't you go to the gym? Or why don't we spend time together? And yeah, and that, which made more sense, to be fair. So, um, that's right. Yeah.

So obviously the position that you're now in, right, so you obviously left the business that you was obviously a big part of.

Yeah.

Um, and you've gone into a completely different market.

Yeah.

So obviously, as you said, so for like 7 years you was in the construction engineering.

Yeah.

That's where you did all the things that you've been talking about already.

Yeah, yeah.

Then you tried something a bit different.

Yeah.

And now you're in a— yeah, you're a head of.NET.

Yeah.

So we're talking tech.

Yeah, right.

How was that transition? Like, that's difficult, right?

Yeah, I had, I had imposter syndrome. I had 2 weeks off before I— when I left X4 and joined Understand It.

Yeah.

And I was getting in my head a little bit. I was like, what if I'm not actually like good at recruitment? Yeah, I was literally just like, what if I'm not good at recruitment? What if like I rose the ranks at X4 because I was just there. And yeah, it was just like, oh, you've been there X amount, you get promoted. And it was— I spoke to my missus and she was like, what the hell are you on about? Like, you've been successful, you know what you're doing, just trust it. So yeah, I got—

so you was worried about it?

Yeah, I was. It was naturally because I'd been in the same place for like 7 and a half years. Like, it was the first job out of uni.

Yeah, so you have no— you have no other things to compare it to. Yeah, exactly. You know what, no, actually I've got a really good chance.

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. So, um Yeah, when I first started, everyone there was so welcoming.

Really?

Like, that just put my mind at ease straight away. Yeah, from like, from the moment I went in there for an interview, even from the moment I started talking to one of the directors, like having a telephone interview, I was like, ah, this seems like a nice place where I can see myself working. Got in there and yeah, everyone was like, right, you've— this is what we expect you to do. I had no target for 3 months, which I think helped, but yeah. But I did, um, I had my first offer 2 weeks in. I did my first placement like 4 weeks in.

Cheers.

And then, yeah, then just started. Yeah, started billing from, from there. So I've done that, I've done well there.

So, um, okay, so how, how, how did you find— because I'm sure a lot of people think this, I'd love to get sort of your perspective and experience on this. If I'm a recruiter listening right now, worked one market for 3, 4, 5 years, however many, however many it be, obviously you've got a real asset there in terms of relationships, and that's like, that really helps you to sort of continue growing your billings, right?

Yeah.

So how have you actually found, like, basically just not chucking that all away, but like, right, okay, I'm starting a new chapter, new market, new clients. Like, how, how have you actually found dealing with that and that transition?

Yeah, I mean, I was, I was lucky that I walked into a warm market.

Okay, so what makes it warm? What is a warm market?

Well, I turned up and there was a load of jobs. Brilliant. Yeah, they were literally like, um, because there was one, uh, one chap there who reports into me working all these jobs and was like, yeah, we've got 10 that need filling. So that was— I was just like a kid in a candy shop basically. I was like, I'm definitely gonna make it.

So, so first thing, again, sounds basic, but first thing, if you're considering a move, yeah, like, what do you know what you're getting into? Are you starting from complete scratch?

Yeah.

Are you actually gonna be walking into an actual warm desk, blah blah blah? Yeah, obviously that helped.

Yeah, so do your research into it. And like, if it isn't a warm desk, like find out what their expectations are for it. Like, am I expected to bill after a month, 2 months, 3 months? Like what's the actual thing? 'Cause some people like, they have to build a business from scratch again and they might not be doing a deal or placement for 6 months or 7 months 'cause they have no relationships. So yeah, I definitely, definitely advise doing that.

And what was that? What was the actual experience of a warm desk? Yes. And so did that mean that you could call up and go, look, we had never spoken before, I work for a business called Understanding, yeah, you should know, like, or you was working on the jobs with the person who was working?

Yeah, pretty much that.

You could just literally say, I work with thingy, with such and such.

Yeah, yeah, it was literally, yeah, literally just that.

Really?

Yeah. And it was, um, yeah, just source basically.

Really?

Yeah. So I was, well, I started doing that, but I was wanting to BD at the same time, so I was like, right, I want to get my businesses and, yeah, like relationships established and that.

So how— and then how, how have you found like the technical part? Like, how have you found picking that up?

Yeah, I did some research into it. Yeah, like when they said, oh, you're going to be head of.NET, I had 2 weeks off, as I said, so I was Googling like, what is C#, what is.NET? Yeah, I put.NET developer into the job boards just to look at other people's adverts.

Smart.

And just was like, oh right, so this and this, like C#, ASP.NET, etc., etc. And then Google what that would be.

Okay.

And then go on LinkedIn and see if I could find developers with that skill set just before. Yeah.

So awesome. Before you start.

Yeah, pretty much. So just doing, just doing some searching myself and seeing how it would work. And then the way I learned about the tech was asking candidates like, Yeah, just literally like, I'm new to, I'm new to tech recruitment. I've got 8 years recruitment experience, but I know what I'm doing, but I don't know what this particular market is. And I just ask the candidates, what is this?

And how did that, how was that received?

By the majority of them, it was like received quite well because I was just open and honest with them. Yeah. Because I said, I said, look, this is a company we're working with, this is what the role is, like, talk to me about your experience with that. And if they were like, oh yeah, I've done that for years, I'm like, okay, cool. What does that actually mean? Because I don't know what it means. Yeah, and yeah, some of them were just like, uh, go away. But other, like, go away, put me forward for the role. Others were just like, the majority of them were just happy to chat.

Yeah, and then you just got better and better. Yeah, there's an understanding.

Yeah, because I'd always, like, I started doing mechanical design recruitment, then I'd, like, my team grew into electrical, quality, like, production process.

Oh, was this an export?

Yeah, this was an export. So I kind of had to learn about different things. So I've I think I've just naturally evolved into having that, right, figure out what it is.

Yeah, no, it's been spoken about before, so like, don't be afraid to ask stupid questions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And be, as you said, I think that that's definitely the way that you should play it, right? Just be honest and transparent, like, look, this is my experience, this is where I'm at. Yeah, I'd love to find out a bit more about what you've been up to in your experience. Yeah, hopefully 7, 8 times out of 10, um, you, they say, they say, yeah, you know what, this is what's going on, blah blah blah. And then on the next call, great, you've got a couple more words and nuances that you understand now that you can then use to the next one.

Yeah, exactly that.

Um, okay mate, so then, so being there from when did you say?

July.

July last year. Yeah, yeah, because you've been doing the right billings. Yeah, what have you done so far?

Um, well, December I did 60. Yeah, which was solid. I think I'm at about 120 in 6 months.

60, is that your biggest month?

Yeah, that's my biggest month in my career, to be fair.

Yeah, so like, why do you think that is? What, like how, why do you think, like like nearly, like, nearly 10 years into your career and 60K, brand new market. Yeah, brand new job, brand new agency. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean?

I think it was more like because I started, um, managing from an early stage in my career.

Yeah.

And then I was getting more and more off the phones, like, as the years were going through.

Yeah.

But yeah, I don't know, like, I had at my last place, I had 35K months, 40K months, but never quite 60. Yeah, especially in December. I was like, this is sick.

Yeah. And why? Why do you think that is?

I don't know. I just, I think it was just literally that was all the stars were aligned with everything. Like every, every company I was getting interviews with, like one of them got the job, they all took it and everything like that.

Yeah, all of that.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like there's only been since I've been there, there's only been one month that I've blanked.

Really?

Yeah. And then like I did, I think I did two deals the, like, the first and second of the next month anyway. So it's just like, yeah, cyclical.

So business development, what's been your sort of relationship with that and how you, how have you always done with that? So clearly, so you're someone that, yeah, wanted to get your own jobs and stuff like that.

Yeah.

So like, how is that, how's, how's that been and what have been your sort of learnings or challenges with that?

It's different now to what I was doing with engineering. Like, tech, tech's definitely very different because engineering, it was just 100% phone-based. It was just literally add as many businesses and managers to the database and call them. Like, yeah, call them, call them, call them. That's how I used to pick, pick jobs up. But now it's like— and then I was more focused on relationship building. Now it's— I still obviously am phone-based but some, the majority of them don't answer the phone. So it's like, yeah, so it's literally like I'll try and connect to them on LinkedIn or send them an email or send them an email, but then I always follow up with a phone call. I think that's what people need to be doing to be successful in BD is making sure that you're getting on the phone with them.

Yeah, different touch points. Yeah, try and drive phone calls.

Yeah, and then meetings and then just cement it from there.

So So before you left X4, was that still very much the approach to win clients? Just get on the phone and like, yeah, yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, phone-based stuff. They didn't like, didn't have a recruiter license at that point. They might do now, I don't know. But yeah, mine was just LinkedIn Premium account. Yeah, which was like, when I, when I first got to understand, they're like, oh, you got a recruiter license? Like, cool, what the hell do I do with it? Like, I didn't know about like, yeah, Yeah, yeah.

So, so how have you adapted to that then? Because you've never done that before. Yeah, because you're someone that's obviously, from what I can see online, trying to embrace doing different things and all that. So quickly realized that, well, actually just smashing the switchboards and stuff isn't getting me a lot of success here. Yeah, like how— what— yeah, how's— how have you found that, like approaching it differently?

I'll just try different things and just really see if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But I'm not someone who's like, oh, I'll try it once and then if it doesn't work, I'll never do it again. Because like, it might take 5 or 6, 10, 100 attempts doing the same thing with different people to see how it— how you get on with it.

So what have been some of the most effective ways so far then for you?

LinkedIn Insights.

LinkedIn Insights?

Yeah.

What is that?

So if you've got like— well, I'm giving all the secrets away.

Hey, come on, mate. We're all about sharing here, mate. So on Is that your LinkedIn license?

Yeah, so on premium, I think it's on some premium accounts or like the recruiter accounts, you can view, um, like their business and how, like, where their degrees come from or like where their staff come from.

That's what I think. You've got to pay more for that.

Yeah, I think so. So you can do, like, we do stuff like that.

Um, so you, so, so that's a tool that's been pretty effective?

Yeah, so that's been quite effective. Yeah, that is what—

so you need to be able to look at a company and go, well, 'Ah, so there's a lot of people with this certain degree or these sorts of unis. If I can find—' So that helps you then understand what the type of people you should be looking for.

Yeah, and when I speak to them over the phone or on an email, I'll literally say, 'Oh, I've looked at this through LinkedIn and I see you take on people from this uni or this uni. Like, why is that?' And just asking them questions. Just adding context helps. Yeah, it's not just like, 'I specialise in.NET development.' Yeah, can I, can I have a job?

I like that because a lot— the thing is, in today's world, as you know, recruiting in tech, like, you can have all the best tech, but if you don't utilize it or actually use it— yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I don't know how many people listening right now have LinkedIn Insights, but I think you definitely got to be paying some cash for the, for those things. But that's interesting. So you've been using that, so that's helped?

Yeah, that's helped. Um, and just, yeah, more like more presence on LinkedIn's helped, like posting a weekly mindset Things really helped for me because I have like, I have people connecting to me like, oh, I really like, that's an awesome post. Like, some, some still don't comment on it, but they'll connect to me and just like, oh yeah, that really resonated with me. I'm like, oh, all right, thank you very much.

But how has that actually helped you?

What, in terms of just billings?

Yeah, well, just like, how is it, how, like, what, how has that helped you as a recruiter?

I think it gets your profile out there more and it just shows that you're got the same recruiter. Like, if you put.NET into LinkedIn, there'll be like so many like blanket things or just like carbon copies of specializing.NET, specializing.

There's so many tech recruiters. Yeah, exactly.

And just like constantly posting, oh, I've got this job, or I've got that job. But it just like— one of my best mates is a developer, and he was like, I fucking hate that. He's like, the amount of people I've disconnected from just because it's like new job, new job, new job. He's like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not about that. So it's like just mixing up what you're posting really helps.

And that's what enabled you to build relationships with people, stand out basically. Yeah, exactly that. But then you've got on the phone with these people, right?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Like, if as soon as someone likes my post, I connect to them, like, and say thanks for liking my post, like, what did you like about it? And like, I always like getting feedback, so I'll send them to and then I post, I'll post some tech stuff as well. So like I try and think about what, um, what like the clients would want to see or what the candidates would want to see. And then just anyone who likes that, I connect to them and like, oh thanks, and just spark off conversations.

And just, just final thing on that, mate. Obviously, look, this is the sort of world I'm in, but it's just great to hear someone else's perspective on that. If I'm listening right now, I'm going, yeah, arge, mate, I'll just, I'll just smash the phones, mate, I'm all Yeah, don't work, mate. Like, just like, so how, so how is it actually the practicalities? So has it enabled you to be more effective on BD? Has it? I don't know, do you know what I mean? What has it actually really helped you with on like the day-to-day in your recruitment job? That which is why it's worth thinking about or trying things.

It's, yeah, because like some, some hiring managers or like internal recruiters have actually connected to you. Like if they've liked your post, you connect to them and they're like, oh yeah, some even say, I don't normally connect with recruiters, or I don't normally accept connection requests, but I really liked what you said. And then that just sparks a conversation. Yeah. And you don't have to say, all right, give me your jobs. Yeah, it's like you use that as an insight into them, find out what— like, find out what their need is. Like, always, as you said, pain points. I always used to think about BD and objection handling as like like someone having a suit of armor on, because that's what I got taught. Yeah. And it's like, find out where the weakness is and then just— yeah, and then just go in.

So yeah, so I think that's fair. So what it's enabled you to do is have conversations with people, with typically people that are getting pestered all the time, get— getting pestered by people that look the same. And very quickly, because you've been willing to sort of share a bit around art and what you're passionate about and what you're interested in, that it's enabled you to drive conversations with people that give you an opportunity to go long term, like, yeah, this is what— do you know what we do here, blah blah blah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, no, that's, that's cool, mate. But I think to run the office, like, it's got, it's got to be accompanied with being proactive.

Oh, 100%. Yeah, if you just post— yeah, if you just post on LinkedIn for the sake of posting, yeah, like, yeah, it's all well and good that you'll get some profile views, but what are you doing with that?

Yeah, you gotta pick up the Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah. So if you're not doing anything with it, then yeah, it is pointless. But it's another way of selling. Yeah, but people don't realize it's selling.

How, um, so what— so now sort of through all your experiences now, how have you like really approached management and growing your team now? Any sort of key things there that you saw is really important to you? Because you said earlier, obviously understood that I just can't manage everyone the same way. Yeah. What's like really important to you now as a manager? Clearly learning about it, any sort of insights there?

Yeah, more patience. Like, that, that has to be it. And just, I think every time I hired people in the past, I just expected them to be good from day one, and it then took me like, no, you've got to remember, remember you were shit once. Yeah. And that's, and that sort of thing. So it's, yeah, just having the patience, but Being there when they need you, but giving them independence straight away. Because it's like, let them find their feet, let them fuck up. It's not like they're going to kill anyone, is it? Yeah, like they might make some— yeah, they might make a mistake. They might— like, we have people just start as resources at Understanding, so yeah, it's not like they're going to lose a client or anything like that. So yeah, it's—

yeah, give accountability. Yeah, yeah. Allow these people to fail. And I'm assuming then it's your job then to be like, right, what can we do better next time? What did you learn from that? And sort of cultivate that. Yeah. And be more of a—

be more of a coach and a mentor as opposed— and a leader as opposed to a manager. So not just like, oh, you'll be doing this at this time, this at this time, this at this time. It's, right, I think you should be doing this, or what do you think you should be doing? What's worked well for you? What hasn't worked well for you? Awesome. And then, yeah, growing my team now is just making sure I hire the right people. Like, I've gone from a massive team of 20 people to, yeah, 2 now. It's like, I want to grow it again and it be sustainable.

And are you, are you in complete control of that, like, in terms of, like, who you hire?

Yeah, 100%. Really? Yeah, yeah. So the directors still have a say on who comes into the business, obviously, but if I'm like, I don't feel like I want this person, there's a very chance they're gonna—

yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's interesting. Always get asked around, um, sort of hiring. Obviously there's so much challenges for business owners and managers on hiring for their team. Like, what are the— from your perspective, what are the non-negotiables when you're looking to hire for your team? Like, what do these people have to have, or what do you need to see for you to be like, I want to give this person a chance?

Accountability. Accountability. Yeah. And like like just evidence of that. Okay. And also resilience as well. That's like a— that's a main one.

Accountability. How do you look for that?

Just like, just with how they answer questions as well. If they're like— if you can tell they're like bending the truth a little bit, or if you can just tell something's not sitting right and you probe with them, if they hold their hands up and go, yeah, you know what, I'm actually chatting a little bit of crap. Yeah. Then I'm like, okay, that's actually that actually works for me. Yeah. But if they're like, oh yeah, I've been the best thing since sliced bread and I'll do this and I do that, and you're like, you haven't, have you? Yeah. And then they're just like, no, I am. Yeah. I'm like, nah, off you pop.

How, how do you, uh, how do you try and identify resilience in people?

Now I'm interested. Just ask about like their life, ask about where they think they've struggled before and like how they've like persevered and, and got through it. Like some people like just give, oh, I've been a keen sportsman and like we lost a game and then we picked ourselves up. I was like, that's not really resilience. Like I've had, I've had some people who I've hired before who have literally come from nothing, like hadn't been on holiday outside the UK before, um, before joining and hitting a holiday target, like that sort of thing, like really struggling with finance and and what have you. And like, stuff like that resonates with me because, yeah, like, I haven't— my family have been like comfortable and fairly well off, but like, I've not come from like a mansion or anything like that. My father struggled through like work and that, so I've seen those struggles. So like, that resonates with me. Yeah, so it's just, it's literally just having something about you where you are not just a, like, you're not just the same person or a carbon copy with, yeah, like someone else really.

Okay, mate. Um, before we finish then, a couple of things, I guess, just to round that off then. For, for anyone listening that maybe over the next couple of years or long term maybe thinking, right, like, do I, do I see myself at this agency for the next sort of 2, 3 years, not sure, the next decade, or in 2020 now, blah blah blah. Just from your experience then, because that can be obviously really daunting. Oh yeah, it's daunting anytime moving a job, right? But particularly for those people that have been in one agency for a while, whatever, what would be your sort of go-to advice on if you're considering a move, maybe completely different market, want a complete new start, new business? What, yeah, any advice just to sort of key things to look out for that could help through that?

Yeah, I'd say take your time when looking. Like, don't just jump ship for the sake of jumping. Like, I never, it was never that I thought, oh, the grass is going to be greener somewhere else. I was just like, I've done what I have done here, and I, I just thought it was naturally time for me to move on. Yeah. So it's, yeah, don't rush, but do your research. Get a rec to rec. Like, I used— I had a couple of other interviews other than Understanding. I went to Understanding direct, um, but like, the rec to recs can advise you on, yeah, what companies you actually should be going for. You do your own research and then just ask as many questions as possible throughout the whole interview stage.

I think the expectation one's a big one, isn't it? Yeah. Like, what— okay, if I join tomorrow, what are the actual expectations of me? Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, yeah. Find out, like, are you expected to bill straight away? Are you expected to pick up clients? Like, what happens if you don't?

Yeah, yeah. Like, find all, all of that, because that's going to help you put your mind at ease as well, isn't it? Yeah. Like, not have as much pressure on yourself. Yeah. It can also be hard when you've got like that amount of experience behind you going into a new company. Yeah, you was obviously— I was in the big dog, mate, leader of the year and all that, and then now you've got to build those relationships again, you know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly. And it's having that— it's having that pressure as well because like I've got a mortgage, I've got a lot of outgoings and all that sort of thing. So that was that billing manager recruitment lifestyle.

Yeah, paid off your uni debt? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, really? Yeah, that's awesome.

I paid that off about 3, 4 years ago.

Really? Yeah, that's wicked, man.

So that was good. Yeah, it was a, it was a nice touch when I knew it was the final one because that must be a good feeling.

Yeah, it was counting down there because it just keeps, just keeps eating away at your like monthly wage, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So it's, um, it's like basically like another tax. Yeah, so I used to see tax, en, and then student. Oh yeah, and there was, there were some months where they're taking like £1,500, £1,700 out of my like pay.

That must be so painful.

Yeah, I was like, imagine when this is finally paid off, like I've got all that cash.

Just, just interesting one on that. What have you— obviously it's come up a couple of times, but like, did you— have you had any advice, or what's been your sort of relationship with like earning more money, do you know what I mean? Because coming from uni debt or that, yeah, that, that obviously, that again, when you're young and And again, back to sort of, you went out a lot and then you sort of changed and stuff. But I don't know, have you— what's been your experience in like, don't know, have you planned— obviously you told me obviously before we started that you're in the process of buying the home, which is awesome. So like, what's been your relationship? Have you sort of grown up with like your finances as well?

Yeah, 100%. Really? Like when I first started, I think probably the first 3 or 4 years, I spent every penny I earned. Yeah. I literally would empty my bank account.

And no one tells you to do anything differently. No, no one does.

Like, my mum and dad did actually.

It's like, nah, yeah, but you don't want your mum and dad telling you that because you're not gonna listen.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened. Like, I literally just went, ah, you know what, I'll just do me.

I've worked hard for this.

Yeah, exactly. So like, thinking about it, if I had started saving even a little bit, yeah, I would have had a flat a couple of years earlier. I would have had this house probably a couple of years earlier. That, that thing.

So it's not like don't enjoy it, but I just— yeah, yeah, there's definitely a conversation worth to be had there. When you start earning good money in recruitment and you're young, you're in London typically, or wherever in the city, yeah, who's telling you to say, well, Arjun, look, do your thing, but if I was in your shoes, I'd be thinking about this, and just plant those seeds that you can then make your own decision on. Well, actually, I'm going to start saving 2% of my monthly wage every time I'm going to put it in this type of bank account, and that's going to mean that, you know what I mean? I think there's such a conversation to be had there. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think so.

And it's, it's things that I do now with like with my new lad. And really, um, yeah, because I was like, what, what are your goals? It's like, right, I want to buy a house by the time I'm 26. Yeah. And I'm like, right, cool. And how do you, how are you going to get there? Like how much do you need to save each month? Yeah, to get it. What, what, what property prices are you looking at? Like where are you looking? How many bedrooms? Yeah. And it, it then gets them like picturing what it is, so it then actually becomes tangible. Yeah, that's good.

And I'm assuming that helps you motivate him when he's like, I don't want to get on the phone, mate. Yeah, you said you wanted to get that house, mate. You've worked it out.

Yeah, that's how I did it. Like, I wanted— when I first started, I had a 1.6 Golf that my mum had given me. Yeah. And like, I dragged it around whilst at uni. I was like, right, I want a BMW 1 Series. And as, as shit as it sounds, I printed a photo of that car that I wanted and stuck it on my monitor. Yeah, I just stuck it on my monitor, so every day I was looking at it. That's why I'm doing this job. That's why I'm getting told to go away 20 times a day. Yeah, and what have you. Fair enough, man.

I love that. Um, before we finish, man, as you know, you're, um, you're coming to the event, aren't you?

I'm— yes. Yeah.

Um, so I've got a couple of questions on resilience. Yeah. With the event coming up. So I've got 3 questions for you, and then I'm going to ask you what you're excited about, and I should find kind of questions. So first question, what, what does resilience in recruitment mean to you?

To me, it is literally just sticking at it and being accountable with it. So if you, you'll have good days and you have bad days, like you'll have good months and bad months, and it's like, it's just digging deep and trusting in the process and thinking, yeah, you know what, there is going to be light at the end of the tunnel. It's just having that about you, trusting the process.

Yeah. Um, interesting one, this one. It's got some interesting answers. So how, in your opinion, how has the importance or need for resilience changed as the industry's evolved?

I think, yeah, I think it's come, it's come a little bit, come a little bit down, like, especially when there's different areas of recruitment now. It's not— you don't have to do a full 360 role. You could start 180 and start as a resourcer. You can go into talent acquisition, you can go internal. So like, you don't really have to be resilient in, or as much, in an internal role or talent acquisition to a 360 BD. Yeah, like sourcing model.

So, so you think there's, from when you first started to now, the sort of environment you're in that maybe requires less resilience?

Yeah, to an extent. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it depends what type of business you're in. Yeah, um, like there'll still be some that are literally like cutthroat businesses and you've got to be like smashing. Yeah, yeah, exactly that. But yeah, that's fair enough.

It's definitely evolved, right? And I think, yeah, I think it's like resilience in, in sort of slightly different ways now. There might be not getting any email replies. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's slightly different maybe compared to when you was in that office with the 3 directors and you were getting point-blank nos. Yeah, a bit different to the sort of resilience you mean when you get no likes on your post, or do you know what I mean? That hurts. So it's interesting, right? So it's like sort of different experiences, experience of resilience. Now you definitely can still— you're going to get rejected and all that, but Yeah, okay. Uh, last one. What— be interested what you say about this. So what, what do you think, and what do you do in terms of what can people do themselves to instill more resilience, or what can people do, um, themselves to instill resilience in their teams? Yeah, like, what— yeah, what sort of things do you do?

So for me, I just— I always used to think about like the negatives of every day, like, and I was like oh, this went to shit, this went to shit. And I'm like, I didn't actually think about the positives. Okay. And I've just now started, like, well, I've been doing it for a while. Like, every time I go home or like first thing in the morning, I, I visualize in my morning, I visualize like when I'm in the shower, like how my day is going to go. Love that. So I'm like, right, this, this person's going to get this job, I'm going to get interviews with this. Yeah. Like, even when I was had the offer accepted on the house, like I woke up in the morning, I was like, right, I'm going to hear today that this offer's been accepted, like that sort of thing. And then on the, um, either going home or on the way home, I'm like, what did I actually get out of this day that was good? And I'm like, right, oh, this went well, this went well. Like even if, even if it's like, oh, 5 in-mails accepted, or yeah, like, or I had a decent BD call, like just take the little wins and they'll then build into the big wins. I like that. And then like when you do deals, like actually revel in it a little bit. Yeah, it's always like—

yeah, it's what you're always looking forward in recruitment, aren't you? Yeah. What we're going to build next month. Yeah, we're going to do this. Yeah, yeah. So you've become better at— instead of— you've become better at focusing on, well, actually I did have a fucking horrible day, but I did— you better at sort of focusing on the good parts. Yeah, that can be difficult to do, right? Oh, 100%.

Yeah, because you can— so difficult to do. Yeah, because like one, one girl in the, in, in the office, she was like, I've had a really shit day today. I was like, didn't you just put 15K in? Yeah. And she's like, yeah, but I didn't get enough CVs. Oh, I was like, oh no, come on.

Like, come on. Yeah, again, it sounds quite simple, but it was— it's such an empowering moment and realization that you're in complete control of what you focus on. Yeah, I know it sounds really simple, but but like, there's a lot of people out there that if someone cuts them up on their way into work, like, that's a day ruined. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's—

that used to be me. Yeah, it's mad, isn't it? Yeah.

And it's like, I've been on my own journey with that, but it's such a— when you realize that obviously we're all prone to being like, people fucking you off, right? Yeah. But yeah, I think when you really realize that you're completely accountable to how you react, how you feel about things, like, that's down to you. That's not down to the candidate dropping out. That's not down to the— it's not down to the person cutting you up in the traffic. Like, that is down to you. And that is empowering. That massively helps in recruitment. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Because if you— if your colleague, yeah, drives into work, someone cuts them up, and they're fuming, and they're fuming for the most of the day, yeah, mate, like, they're at a disadvantage. Yeah, 100%. I mean, how— how— so that's what you do for yourself. Anything, yeah, for your team, that— how have you— have you tried to cultivate that in your team? Yeah. So how do you do that?

Yeah, 100%. So I literally— I celebrate the wins with them. Awesome. Like, so if we have a good week or if you have a good month, we're like, all right, we'll go to the pub or like we'll go for a meal or what have you. And just, yeah, I just instill, like, they ask me about my life experience and that because one I've known for a couple of months, the other I've known for 7 months. So it's just this, it's still in that getting to know me phase.

So I guess it is, to be fair, it comes down to that. If your colleague comes to you, goes, oh, I've had a, like, if you ask them, right, how was your day? And he goes, yeah, shit, mate. Yeah. And then it's your job then to be like, right, okay, yeah, fair, but what did you do that you're happy with today? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's those types of things.

Yeah, so it's like, why was it shit? All right, what could you have done to make it better?

And then finish with what was actually good. Yeah, yeah, and that— and that— yeah, okay, I like that. Yeah, so, um, before I ask you the final question, what are you excited about, mate? What's going on in 2020 for the.NET team? What are you excited about?

Growth and expansion more than anything else. Yeah, so I've got plans to hire at least 2, maybe 3 others this year. Awesome. And just, yeah, I want it to— because I'm now back to billing and managing, I just want to have like a monster year. So like, I want to—

yeah, yeah, so I'm like, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, $60K a month, $20K last month, already on $10K for this month. So it's like, I'm— yeah, I'm aiming for $360,000, $400,000 this year. This year. Really? Yeah, yeah, I'll set myself, yeah, a big target.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to, uh, get you back on the podcast, mate, see how you've done. Because what's been, what's been your biggest year to date?

Uh, biggest year to date was like 205.

Really? So like you want to—

yeah, near enough double it. Yeah, so yeah, so that's the, that's the plan. And then yeah, just grow and just sustainable growth and make sure everyone like knows what they're doing, they know why they're here, they know what they're doing doing it for and, and that. And just, yeah, helping drive the business forward.

Awesome. Last question. If Arjun could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, they'd take on your advice— could be a phrase, a sentence, a word— what do you want to tell these people if they're going to listen?

Trust the process. Trust the process. Trust the process. Literally, like, figure out what you need to do what needs to make you successful in recruitment and just do it over and over again.

Trust the process. Yeah. Arjen, it's been a pleasure, mate.

Nice one. Cheers.