Ashley Lawrence - Building multiple recruitment brands, the power of culture when growing a business

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm joined by Ashley Lawrence, who is the chief exec at Trenova Group, which consists of 4 distinct brands. You have Trust in Soda, which operates in the digital market. You have Broadgate Search, which operates in the governance market. BioTalent, that operates in life sciences. And ex-military careers, which is a social enterprise. Now, across the group, they have circa 90 people and are based in London, Manchester, Dublin, and also in the States, in the state of California. Ash, thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me, mate.

Good to finally be here.

I'm sorry, I think I've best intentions. I think I've been due on a few times and, you know, current pandemic and all that. I've— so here I am. So thank you. Thanks for having me. Apologies it's taken me so long to get here.

So we're doing this remotely, obviously, and if there's any sort of tension, mental issues, you might experience that, but hopefully this should be absolutely fine. But where I was really keen to start, Ash, and what I really want to focus on today is the journey of Tranova Group, right? And the 4 brands that I just mentioned. How long have you— firstly, how long have you actually been in the recruitment industry?

Give my age away. I started in recruitment when I was 19. And, you know, I'm 34 today. So, so what, you know, 15 years.

Okay. And you started— sorry to remind you of that. And you started at the infamous Esfry.

Yes.

So just quickly, I just want to ask you one question around that and we'll segue into you being a business owner, etc. But like what? What is your opinion of the S3 culture that you think made a lot of recruitment entrepreneurs, that made it so great? What were the sort of key ingredients that you saw looking back?

I mean, that's a, that's a great question, isn't it? It depends how you quantify culture, and it depends how you, you know, and also you're making an assumption there that it was a great culture. I think it was a great environment that drove an unbelievable amount of competition, which drove the minimum standards. Really, the lowest common denominator would probably be in the top performers in most other recruitment businesses. In the contracts team that I worked in when I started at Computer Futures, you'd probably say that the top 20% of that business would probably be the top 1% across the industry, if you then filter those into any other businesses, just in relation to what they may have been billing. So the environment was incredible. Naturally, any environment stems from leadership. I think I was at Computer Futures' contracts team in London. I started in 2006. So the training was unbelievable. It was exceptional. You know, you still have conversations today that people that have been S3 trained still refer to it, still use it. It's still, you know, it still has a place in the present day, which just gives you a sense of just how good that is. A lot of that then is driven by minimum standards. It's driven by absolute accountability, visibility, kind of nowhere to hide. There wasn't There's not a great deal that you get in relation to toolkit outside of training. Really, your role is contingency-based, new business, you celebrate high margins, you wouldn't really be able to be doing a great deal of volume with any one client because you'd absolutely not want to see any margin erosion and your average margin would only really be recognized as good if it was 20% and above. And in terms of having a kind of unique value proposition, you didn't really have one. In terms of a toolkit that you could offer to your client, other than your absolute ability just to find people quickly, that again, when I was there, wasn't really one. So all you had was just— you were just surrounded with so many people that are so incredibly competent. And you just had to drive competition, really. You know, everyone wanted to be number one, really. And the commission structure, it was not very good. You know, it's just, it is not a great commission structure. So really, you're not looking at even your earning potential so much. You're just looking to be top of the leaderboard. So everyone that was brought into the business was so competitive and it was always about being top of the leaderboards. We interview people, I interview people now, 90% of my day is interviewing people for the various brands and often you'll meet people that will kind of try and carve out what their earning potential looks like on 150K billings. I mean, you just wouldn't do that at Computer Futures. You quite simply, any of your, any of the numbers that went into the input to kind of derive what your earning potential looked like really started at £10,000 a week weekly GP. Anything less than that then wasn't really celebrated, you know, it's almost like, well, you haven't earned the right to earn a good amount, earn a decent amount of commission. We'll pay you well when you're performing at that level. So, I don't, you know, in all honesty, it's not a culture that we aim to replicate in any one of our businesses. But in terms of the process, the control, the minimum standards, the training, then, you know, that's absolutely fantastic, and there's a lot you can take from that. I think, just going back to what I mentioned about the leadership piece, and that is so important for driving the minimum standards and having so much accountability in that business. You've got a guy— I know Ryan Adams was on with you, wasn't he? I'll listen to that one. But Ryan's a good lad, right? Ryan is a great example of someone that, you know, you just did it. The reason why Ryan is successful, or any, anyone else would be successful in that business, is quite simply hard work and sacrifice. You know, you just, you just work harder than anyone. You have to demonstrate a huge amount of sacrifice, and there was just absolutely no way that you would ever use the word luck. You know, you never say, well, he got lucky. It was always when hard work meets opportunity, and everything anyone did, it was always quantified. It was like, well, this person is doing X because they've increased their client calls, they've doubled down on their candidate calls, they're coming in and working on the weekends. You know, it was always hard work meets opportunity rather than actually so-and-so got lucky. So there's a— I was really lucky when I started in recruitment. I sat next to a guy called Paul Knox. He was, him and a guy called Lawrence Doe really were the two guys that really drove that business, drove them into standards, held people accountable.

It's interesting. So yeah, I think this is what's coming out of it. Every time I ask someone around the Esprit thing, it comes back to the standards and those two names there. I mean, I'm in the process of speaking to them about coming on the podcast because a lot of people have sort of given them credit on building that or the culture they created and sort of leading the path, if you want to say that. And so it's interesting that you mentioned them because they came up.

Well, yeah, Nox, unbelievable manager. I was lucky enough to— I sat next to him for the first 12 months in recruitment, and, you know, I still reference stuff that he taught me 14, 15 years ago. You know, that's how good he was. And I think a lot of it, a lot of it would probably, you know, sit with him as an individual in terms of how that culture kind of, or the environment of having an absolute incredible team existed. But, you know, for someone like Noxy, yes, absolutely, it's a massive part of that. But when I did my MBA dissertation, I was interviewing lots of like recruitment entrepreneurs, corporate finance people, private equity people to kind of triangulate a perspective of what really drives value in a recruitment business. So without wanting to overcomplicate this, you've got EBITDA and then multiple that's applied to that. And one of the guys that I interviewed was Russell Clements. He was the Group CEO of S3. And, you know, when I was asking him about what derived value, what were the things that S3 did to really go and capture the market, not just in the UK but around the rest of the world. And I was expecting things like, you know, leveraging their first move advantage into Russia or interbrand synergies, or, you know, whatever you might expect to look like from a CEO of FTSE 250. But actually, what his answer is really interesting because it's probably what resonates throughout the entire entirety of S3, certainly when he would have been there and certainly when I was there, which is it's about minimum standards. It's about having these minimum standards that then compounds to becoming the competitive advantage. It's not doing any one thing. It's not being at your desk at 8:31, you know, it's being at your desk and ready to work by 8:30 and on the phone. It's not being late. It's going in on weekends if you need to go in on weekends. And it's just, it was small things, you know, having a tie on at your desk, being well presented. It was those things that were really high standards, and that's what kind of compounds when you think about that many people, that many locations, and if you uphold those minimum standards, it's those things that really enable you to compete. And it was a little bit like, you know, like Sparta or 300, where, you know, the— or like the Marines, you know, 99.9% need not apply. It's like that was the business, and the The environment was that no one else can compete with us and actually no other recruitment business really exists. Even then it was an incredibly saturated landscape and it is a very saturated sector. But really being S3, you were in a bit of a bubble. You didn't really know anywhere else existed and nor were you ever really made reference to anyone else. It was quite simply, well, you work for Computer Futures and you work for this team and by virtue of that you're the, you know, you're in the top 1% of the industry and this is what we expect from you. So it's a bit, it's a bit of a long-winded answer to probably what should have been a really straightforward question.

No, no, that's, I think that you, you're the first person you've spoken about that esprit environment in a different way and I think that that's really interesting. But that, that's really interesting around the, yeah, when you're speaking to Russell Clements around what makes a recruitment business more valuable or builds the equity value and actually it was about, yeah, the the compound of minimum standards. That's really interesting. So, okay, so how—

there's a— sorry, there's a— there's just on that point, there's a really good book called Earn the Right to Win. It's a— I actually think it's meant to be a business book, but it's about minimum standards. And it was about— I think he's an NFL coach, and it was all the things that he used to make sure the players got right. So similar things like be at training on time, make sure you get enough sleep, make sure your nutrition is right, you know, make sure that you're basically you're 110% of the version of what you can be. And it's a really interesting book around a load of stuff that they would do. And it's just the small things like, you know, business cards, right? You know, you celebrate when you've run out of a box of business cards because you've done, you know, you've done your job, you're out there, you're in front of people. That should be celebrated. Just lots of little things like that. It's very similar in terms of what that book what is in that book and actually what S3 did as a business. I say S3, when I was there, I think there was 9 brands. I'm really only referring to Computer Futures, which was probably, you know, a little bit biased, but was probably the number one brand.

There we go. That's that mentality, isn't it?

Yeah. Okay.

So, okay. So let's just give context for people and break this down. Love, no, I really enjoyed you talking about S3 and that. I think that's really interesting. So in 2009, you started the business with Strategic Move, started a business called Strategic Move, which ultimately was a rent-to-rent, right? So you did that from what I can see, and correct me if I'm wrong, did that for near 6 years?

Yes, correct.

Yeah. Did that for 6 years. And then in 2013, you started the first brand within the Tranova Group, which is Trust and Soda.

Correct.

Year later, Broadgate Search.

Correct.

And then for the last 2 and a half years, you've also added BioTalent. And then, and then, and then throughout, has ex-military careers been part of it?

So, so, um, so BioTalent was January 2018. So, um, Soda was incorporated August 2013, Broadgate January 2015, BioTalent January 2018. Roll-up to Trenovo Group really was January 2019, and Ex-Military Careers as a social enterprise was really founded before all of that. That was an initiative that me and my brother launched to help veterans find employment or help with the kind of transition in that move from kind of the military into civvy street and, you know, recognize the the need for training and demystification and actually, you know, present-day ex-military careers is, as a social enterprise, we advertise about 7,000 vacancies from about 350 different clients across the UK and predominantly the US. And as I say, that's a social enterprise that kind of operates net neutral and as a non-for-profit. But yeah, that was really founded by my brother and I in 2013, and it's just grown organically and exponentially year on year.

Okay, cool. So we're going to attempt to sort of break down the sort of key moments, the learnings, mistakes, right? So I think what's interesting about your journey and what I know so far, Ash, is that Trust and Soda was a joint venture with someone that had a plan and was something, someone that you was getting involved with to back, but also offer expertise and be involved with, right? And then Brogate Search, obviously you started out with Ben Adams, who's again, someone that you started it with someone else. And then in terms of the buyer talent, again, it was you getting involved with other people that were going to really focus and drive that.

Yeah? Correct.

Yeah. So I just find that so interesting, right? So I think firstly for me, what I'd love you to sort of just speak about, I guess, real benefit of hindsight here, talking about the start of this journey with these brands and what you know now. But I guess the first thing is like, how much did it help having that black book of recruiters when you started this business? Like, how much did that help at the beginning in terms of knowing exactly who you wanted to get involved and those things?

I mean, absolutely, you know, quite simply, it absolutely helps. You know, we were, when we had launched Soda, I think was, you know, at the kind of time where where being on-site or the MSP and RPO proposition was becoming more of a kind of BAU solution to recruitment as we know it and kind of move away from agencies being able to deliver on a contingency-based business basis and high margins and low volume approach was just ceasing to exist. So from a timing perspective, it helps because I knew a lot of recruiters that actually were deciding to to go on site, and actually then they were great contacts when we launched Soda and in building out a kind of client portfolio. But it's also helpful naturally to, as we're scaling, trusting Soda. It was Dave and I that set up Soda, and Dave wasn't coming with a team of 6 or 8 people that he wanted to be be financed, really. It was him and I with a joint venture, and I was able really to lean on my network. And I think I brought in the first 6 or 8 hires through my network in SODA. And, you know, a handful of those hires are still with the business in director roles. Hailey's out in the US, and Sam's an associate director for our perm team, for example. So, you know, those guys are still with us and have been with us really since inception. So, so, so not to underplay it, it was great, you know, it's superb. That being said, because we wanted to have that agility, you know, we were mindful of my network really and not wanting to be too regimented in our structure in that we'd really be relying on a handful of good recruiters coming in to help us shape the proposition. The shortfall of that really is not having from day one a really robust vision and plan, and that's sort of the opportunity cost. Arguably, you know, are you better off not to have a network in recruitment whatsoever and you've got a really strong plan and a vision and start there and don't deviate from that is, you know, is one approach counter to the, you know, just be more fluid, be a bit more agile, shape the businesses, you identify talent. That was our approach.

But is that something that would you— is that something that you'd check? Like, do you think you, if you were to start again, because I've heard you say before that when you start a recruitment business, you should try and start with the end in mind. So in terms of the vision, value proposition, do you think that's something that you'd actually iron out and focus? I think that's typically something that people won't spend time on think about is get money in the bank, and it's get those things rather than the importance of the vision. Do you think that's something that you change?

Mate, 100%. Having a plan is just— is business critical for me anyway in setting out, you know, having a plan is as— not as critical as cash flow though, right? You know, so you need cash, otherwise the plan is a little bit redundant, but So there is that piece where you have to make placements, you haven't got the luxury of not making placements, and really in the early years you haven't really got the luxury of turning things down, you know, despite wanting to stick to a plan and the value proposition, really you haven't got the luxury of turning things down and cash flow is king. But it shouldn't detract from having a plan and a vision because that helps with engagement and it helps when you're selling the business, not just to people to come and join you, but actually when you're speaking to clients, really, and you're shaping what makes you unique, how do you differentiate, ultimately what's in it for them. And that story is so important and so powerful, and how you communicate that story is really important. And maybe that we weren't great at that in the first or second year of Soda. Fast forward to Trenovo Group present day, our mission, our purpose, our values, it just absolutely drives the business. But it's a different business. It's, you know, close to 90 in headcount and 3 brands and 4 locations and £29 million turnover. So you're afforded— you haven't got the luxury of not having a plan and having a purpose for employee engagement. But equally, it's a very different business to when you set up from day one, which is just got to put cash in the bank, you know, but having a plan definitely helps with that. So, you know, that's definitely one thing that I didn't do was have a plan. Probably if I was going to do anything tomorrow, you know, you'd have a really robust plan.

So just to help me out then. So Ash Lawrence, when you started Soda with Dave and then sort of, I guess, fast forward a year, another business involved and these things, but like, what does a typical day look like for you? Like what, I'm sure it's changed, but overall, what have been your core responsibilities as the executive of this growing business that you've grown quickly?

Sorry, what is day-to-day?

No, no, for you as Ashley Lawrence, the chief exec of these businesses, these brands, like what have you ended up focusing on? You said at the beginning of this that 90% of your time now is spent looking, obviously speaking to people, potentially working for the group. But like, what have been your core responsibilities? Because you wasn't someone that got on the tools, hadn't recruited in digital since you was in S3. So like, for you, what have been your focuses or what have been your responsibilities within this journey over the last few years? Just to help me out on that.

Yeah, I mean, I'm still very, very client-facing, you know, still since inception until present day, it's still very, you know, I bring in lots of clients and we'll nurture relationships and there's no getting away from that for me. I still do deals now. You know, I did a deal last week, a big statement of work that at Trenovo Group level, a big CSR project. So that was nice to put that deal on the board last week.

So I actually asked you that. So that was like, how, why is that a big moment? Because that was one of the the questions that Ben wanted me to speak to you about around winning that CSR project.

Like, who's Ben? Ben Adams?

Ben Adams, yeah, Ben Adams. As to like, why is that important to you guys? Because he believed that that sort of really embodies the vision for your business and the group.

How many questions have you got? How many questions have you got prepared for me?

A few, got a few. But like, well, yeah, why is that important? Why is that an important moment?

It's a groundbreaking project. Its focus is really— it really brings together a number of our business's parts. Its focus is basically— our mission as the Trinova Group is to build diverse teams that represent the world we live in, and the project in itself is is basically driven behind having unconscious bias in the sourcing and screening process and then delivering a diverse candidate pool that is difficult to reach. And from a social impact perspective, what the project— it doesn't get announced until a week today, but from a first social impact perspective, it's a fantastic initiative which aims to find 1,000 graduates and apprentices that have been displaced due to COVID, and it brings together 10 of the world's leading brands for this initiative. And Trenova Group were appointed as the exclusive resourcing partner that will filter the screening process. And the reason why I said that— why that's, you know, firstly, I think it's a fantastic fantastic thing to do, you know, in terms of having— being involved with a project of that type. But it brings together a number of parts for us. So, you know, we've got D&I framework. We won APSCO D&I Award for Excellence last year. The year before, we were finalists for CSR. And we were able to really bring that together in a more of a distinct sort of narrative and a bit of a story around how our businesses as reach maturity and our focus being that we're able to provide our clients with sort of meaningful data and insights that enables them to build diverse teams. And it was a lot of work that went into it. And I see that as, I wouldn't say it's first mover advantage because I think other recruitment businesses are able to do that, but that will become more BAU.

Yeah, I think that's a question that's coming up for me, Ash. If I'm listening to it, like, first, I think that's amazing. I think, love the mission, I think it's great, and I love that. So I guess commercially, if I'm listening to this right now, like how, just quickly on this, I know it's not just about this, right? It's about the vision and purpose, but how is that mission, how is you guys talking about these things, these are the things you want to impact, these are the things that you're really motivated about making a difference for these businesses you work Like, how does that help? If I'm listening right now, should I be thinking about that? Is it just— it sounds nice, but like, how has that actually helped? How have you found it's helped you over the last few years, more recently, this project? How has it helped you have a competitive advantage?

Um, quite simply, it's, it's in, it's in hiring and culture. Because if you want to— if we're investors in people goals and we want to reach investors in people platinum this year, there's a great deal that goes into that. But simply, for me, stems from Having value-based hiring assessments, you know, so our values being passion, collaboration, and innovation. And if what you do is, is your interview assessments look like values-based assessments, and, and actually how you remunerate, reward, promote, and recognize consultants based on values and not just revenue, you know, that, that's why when you asked me earlier about S3 or Computer Futures and it being a great culture, it was not great culture, it's a good environment. For high performers. A good culture for me is about employee engagement and people enjoying coming to work and being able to have the freedom to innovate. You know, you wouldn't get the freedom to innovate at Computer Futures, really. You're fairly binary, you're square peg, square hole. Cog is part of the machine, there's no real freedom to innovate. But to innovate, you have to have a culture that celebrates failure and iterations of that failure look like innovation. So So to answer the question, why that's great for us to win has been, it's actually the people part of it. It stems from us really reshaping what was important in our business, and it wasn't necessarily billings. We reshaped it and we had it focused on values, and then that gives you great people in the business, improves your, improves your churn rate, and we've got a this kind of organic and meritocratic growth as part of your culture is super important as well. But it all stems from values and having the right values and living by those values and really employee engagement and innovation. Billings for me are a byproduct of having a fantastic culture.

Ash, do you think a recruitment business that isn't, is nowhere near your size, 10 people, 8 people, 12 people, do you think they have a culture and should put an importance or priority on values?

If I was gonna start again tomorrow, having a plan, you know, number one, but having values absolutely is critical. Having a mission, having a purpose is just so important. It's just so important for employee engagement, but equally it becomes part of your narrative and what differentiates you to your clients as well. You know, we didn't get that right from inception, and I worked with a guy called Mike Smith. He was on the board of S3 actually, he was the MD. Yeah, I know Mike, yeah. So Mike was with us for a couple of years, and he's brilliant, and when I sat down with Mike for the first time because I was looking to bring in a non-exec. The first thing he said to me was, what is your mission and what are your values? And it's almost embarrassing to think—

And what year? Timeline of business, just quickly, just for context.

Yeah, that would have been probably at the end of 2015. Yeah. There's a really good book called Traction, by the way, that I recommend for anyone if they're going to be thinking about setting up your own business. Start from chapter 1. In traction and follow that path. As a book, it is sort of kind of built for businesses that are probably 40 people looking to get to 80. There's some shortfalls in there, but it's still suitable for people that want to start from day one because it's about vision and purpose and engagement, and actually sales become a bit of a byproduct. So that book is great. But I was lucky in working with Mike. Mike was almost a real, you know, a real-life example of talking me through that process. And so, yeah, he was very good. But to answer the question, absolutely, value should be day one.

Okay. So just one more thing that I wanted to ask you around sort of early days, knowing what you know now. We always talk about on this podcast around hiring is one of the biggest challenges, getting the right people. But what— see, so the things that you're talking about now, Ash, a common theme that I'm finding is sort of if you're a recruitment business owner and you do want to grow, you do want to scale, you have to have the mentality and do things that, um, you should be doing at a certain stage before you're doing it. So it's the things you're talking about— have values, have a vision, these things. But typically what seems to happen with businesses that don't scale is that they'll say to themselves, I'll do that when we get 15 heads, or I'll do that, or I'll think about values when I get to the 20 milestone or whatever. So what I wanted to ask you was, because what keeps coming up again is around the processes, around getting people to do things that means that Ash is then spending time on other things. Like, for your operations team and the non-billing part of the business, who would be your first 3 hires if you would, if you would, if you were to do that? Did you hear that?

I just literally— just sorry, mate, the internet literally just broke out for a second. I think it's what you said, what would be your first 3 operations hires?

Yeah.

Okay, that's good. Guess there. And what would the size of the team be?

So let's say that I'm listening to this, I'm like, right, you know what, I've been— I've just been coasting, I'm serious about growing my business. And time and time again, it seems like you have to make these decisions as if you're already there, right? That you're at the point that you want to get to, sort of thing. That's what keeps coming up with the business owners that I speak to that are 50+ heads or whatever. And having operations, having the right tools always seems to be— all people go, I wish I got an operations manager before I did. I wish I got this person before I did. So I guess It could be tools, it could be people, but what would be like the 3 things that you'd invest in that would be perceived as non-billing that you think would give you the best chance of scaling with the right foundations?

Okay. First and foremost, finance and accounting, right? You know, you need to know what cash you've got. You need to know meaningfully what your, you know, what your NFI is, what you want it to be, what your triggers to hire is, what your cost of sales are. Super important, you know, that cash flow piece is critical to growth. So having someone in the finance and accounting role actually isn't an expensive hire, and it doesn't need to be a full-time hire. You know, we outsourced our accounting function until we were about 30, 40 people. It was outsourced. And getting a real sense of your numbers, for me, is absolutely critical if we can include that into an operation. An operations hire. I would then say, kind of depends if you're doing contract or perm, but again, it doesn't need to be a full-time hire, but someone in a training and development role. You know, we've got— that in all honesty is a hire that we should have made well ahead of when we actually did. And we still don't have someone in a full-time L&D role. We use Jeremy for our academies, we use Ashley Rice for our Future Leaders program, and again, you know, it's kind of based on demand, we can use them. Jeremy we work with more on a quarterly basis now, based on our academy and hiring needs, and Ashley helps us with that organic meritocratic growth piece of people that want to become future leaders and run teams. So having someone in a training and development role it does give you scale, it gives you the opportunity to scale because if your business is basically saying, well, we're 10 people now, we want to get to 30, but I tell you what, I can't get there because I just can't find 20 half-million-pound billers, you know, that's— then it's your fault as a business owner to ever expect there to be 20 half-million-pound billers ever actively looking in the market. And ever looking to join your business. So to be proactive in that, to have an academy that enables you to have some certainty on headcount growth, you need a training and development piece. S3 was so successful because it had the most unbelievable training infrastructure and it had this kind of constant stream of people. By that size, you just factor churn into growth trajectory and headcount and you get rid of the people that can't quite make it and continue to invest into training. So we're not big on the churn piece, We've invested heavily into training, and actually, as I say, as a business, even as 10 people, that should be an operations hire, but it doesn't need to be a full-time hire. You know, you can bring people in on a quarterly basis or as and when you want to see spikes in—

so accountancy, finance, learning development. What would be the final one, you think?

So I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit torn in this because I want to say marketing, but then, but personally, and we have a great marketing going in our business, but I think that would be misleading people in that marketing is an operations role because I think sales and marketing are the same thing. And actually, you get your consultants doing the right things when they should be doing them and doing them correctly. Actually your marketing is into the fabric of your business and your sales consultants recognize the value of just basically being amazing marketers. So I wouldn't want to mislead people by saying, well, hire a marketing person, you'll be great at marketing, because actually the opposite is probably true. You need a better integrated solution. So if I wasn't going to pick marketing, which would be the obvious one, you'd probably say an operations person or operations manager that can basically just let the salespeople sell. You know, let them just do their job. There's so much as a smaller business, probably more so as a smaller business maybe than when you're a larger business, you have economies of scale. You know, as a smaller business, you can just get swamped with stuff, you know, on the phone to job boards.

Yeah, all sorts. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think that's one of the— okay, that's really interesting. So what I wanted to also get your thoughts on, Ash, so I've heard you say that I think this might have been in line or the right sort of timeline with Mike Smith getting involved as well, which I'd be keen to, because a lot of business owners I feel want NEDs. I've had that conversation with loads of people, but a lot of people sat down with people that they're like, nah, don't rate them at all, whatever, and sort of not sure it makes a good NED, right? But I heard you say before, Ash, around that you got to around the 25 heads mark. Broadgate was at this point, Soda existed then. And you finally got around to actually finding out what the traits were, the personality traits were of the people in your business. And you had no one that were completers or finishers.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah.

So I think that's really interesting, right? So I think for me, there's a bit in there around how do you think that's held you back at that beginning stage? Because it seems like you had to go through that, those first 2 years and then you made changes. But how do you think that sort of potentially held the business back? And also psychometric testing, finding out how your people function, how important is that, doing that sooner rather than later?

So I'll answer them in the order, mate, but like, just quickly on NEDs, non-exec directors, and having someone that's been there, that's done it, it's really what you're what you're paying for, for want of another word, is where they've failed, where they've got it wrong. That's the great advice. It's like, I've done it, I lost a fortune doing it, and I certainly wouldn't be doing this again. And that's really what you're buying. So to have an NED that's, you know, is a bit of a— is tried and tested and has earned the stripes is super important. And actually, I could sympathize with that most people have found varying degrees of success because because I found the same, you know, there's a lot of guys out there and girls that are doing non-exec roles, and I think if you get the right one, it's imperative. I mean, arguably you could put that in there with those operations hires, one day a month with a non-exec is fairly critical. The next part being the behavioral assessment, that was a Belbin behavioral assessment that I rolled out when I was doing the organizational behavior module of my MBA, and I found it super interesting. It was, you know, people's perception of themselves isn't necessarily the reflection, the perspective that other people have from them. So you sort of provide this 360 assessment, and it's really almost enlightening for the recipient that realizes, you know, actually I'm not the creative director that I think I am. I'm a bit of a wally, and, you know, I'm actually better off at this. And then when you look at that in balance on in a team, you know, you have strengths and weaknesses. So your strengths, just play to your strengths. You know, your weaknesses just become allowable if you're in a balanced team. And that's why, you know, the difference in culture when you think about S3 to our business, S3 business had the same KPIs for everyone. Everyone had the same, you know, amount of calls with candidates, clients, CVs sent, interviews, offers, you know, it was all the same for every individual. And it completely overlooks that what's important about culture is playing to people's strengths, engagement, and them enjoying their job. So we use Cube19 as our dials and KPI metrics that actually you can shape the KPIs based on someone's strengths. And if you're fantastic in this one area, then we can shape your performance indicators to have you working in that area and you enjoy it and you're engaged, and we've provided you with a team that gives you balance and they're a bit more like Completer Finishers, and actually that works pretty well. And that's what that behavioral assessment taught me when I did it. Do we use them in psychometric testing in the interview process? Currently, no, we don't. It is definitely something that we're looking into. I think there's a— it can be difficult for me personally, you know, I think it can be difficult to judge someone based on a on a score that they've done and you don't know what the environment looks like, you don't know how long it's taken them, you don't know what frame of mind they were in at the time of taking it. You know, there's a lot that goes into a test itself that might have influences that you're not aware of. Personally, I've always interviewed— this is not a recommendation, by the way— but I've always interviewed without a CV. You know, I've just walked into the room and got a sense of someone almost immediately with type of character they were and how they conducted themselves, how they spoke, you know, was always more important to me than what was on the CV. So I think our business is having to grow up a little bit in that sense, and, you know, with multiple locations and the headcount growth we want to see, we do need to have maybe a little bit more certainty, or certainly provide team leaders, managers, and directors with more of a toolkit into making the correct assessment. So psychometric testing probably features there, but I've never, you know, I've never let a psychometric test hold me back from a job.

That's fair enough. Okay, so just on this point, Ash, what I'd be really keen to just get your thoughts on is more about you personally, really. So again, what I keep learning from recruitment business owners that successfully scaled their businesses is that they've had to get really good at empowering their people. Right? And what that means is, is that you have to get better and more comfortable at allowing people to do things that, I don't know, early on you might have thought that you could have done better or these types of things.

Right?

And that might be you personally or it might be the leaders underneath you. But I guess for Ashley Lawrence in this business that's growing, that's become sort of a real big vehicle now, loads of people involved, I think one of the things that a lot of small business owners struggle with is the letting go. Is the letting go of certain things, right? And you've obviously kept involved with certain parts, but like, how have you made sure personally, as the chief exec of this business, how have you always ensured that you've got a purpose and you haven't lost that? You know?

Yeah, so, yeah, it's interesting because like, you know, succession planning, efficient delegation, empowerment are all are all big parts of being a good leader. But is the question more, you know, if you do that too often, then you haven't got a job?

I think because that's what can hold people back in doing it. I mean, how have you sort of— how would you sort of— yeah, how have you dealt with that?

Um, if, if you are— if it depends what type of business you, you want to build, right? If your business is predominantly driven by the— your own ego and it's a bit of a lifestyle choice then you might really struggle with that. If you want to build a big business and multitude of locations and really drive value, you have to get out of the way, right? Because you have to hire people that are better than you. It's just— and that's easy for me to do, you know, there's plenty of people out there. So you wouldn't, you know, you, you know, we hired a fantastic chief operations officer, and it would be silly for me to hire someone at that level And just be in the way all the time. You've got to make good hires. It comes up all the time, and I actually hate hearing it, but you don't want to be the most intelligent or the smartest guy in the room. That's fairly true. So to get growth, you need empowerment. To get growth, you need to hire good people around you. And good people want headroom to grow and progression. And succession planning is part of scaling a business. So really, you have to get out of the way. For me, I'll do the job until I stop enjoying it, you know. It's like, and if there's someone better than me to do the job, and I'm sure there will be, but while I'm as passionate as I am and, you know, and absolutely committed to the job and, you know, driving the right behaviors through the organization and setting the right minimum standards and continuing, for me, to, you know, what I feel are the the number one privately owned business in our spaces, then while we are that business, then I think I've got a job. But I think, I'm not sure, but you basically want to get scale, you need to get other people to do those roles and then get out of the way and give them room for progression. And at some point, when the business wants to go from 150 to 400 heads, maybe I'm not the right person for that role. But I would have to recognize that and either empower someone internally or bring someone in externally that is able to do that job. But, you know, for me, it's always what's in the best interest of the business. It's not about, you know, my ego. I want to be the CEO of the group forever. It's for as long as I feel I'm capable and competent and I'm passionate and You know, if we identify someone that's more competent, capable, and passionate, then that's in the best interest of everyone in the business and for me as well. Because when you set up a business, you're an equity holder. It's like owning a house. You need to— you want to see that export value grow. And sometimes that means that you don't live in it day to day. So it's— we'll see. But, you know, currently I'm enjoying it and there's plenty to do. I think I mentioned earlier, the large part of my job is interviewing, you know, is ensuring that we've got the right people in the right roles and providing headroom and paths for progression for people that are competent and capable. And, you know, organizationally ensuring that we've got that continued growth trajectory and internationalization and improving our operational efficiencies and creating the right infrastructure that's going to enable us to continue to scale. That's, you know, that takes a bit.

Yeah, there's a lot there. So this leads me quite nicely into— we've got about 15 minutes, haven't we, right? Is that cool?

Yeah.

So this just leads me quite nicely into what I wanted to ask you, because what has been key parts of enabling you to scale is getting involved with people that ultimately can help you do that, right? In terms of the different brands and these things. So You were talking about some of the traits there. What you're talking about is having some— the real humility to sort of understand that there will be people better than you in these things. Your ego is not in the way. But so the, the likes of Dave, Ben, the other, the other people, or the other person that you got involved with for Biotalent—

what were the—

James, what were the, what were the common traits that you saw in them that, that left you feeling really confident to, to help them or be part of their journey? What were the common traits you think that the recipe for them to have a good chance of going well?

Interestingly, mate, I don't think there were common themes, and I think that's what makes, you know, if you can get balance, right? If you can, you know, you don't want everyone having the same traits or demonstrating the same behaviors or have the same strengths to build a team. You know, you need people's skills to complement one another. So like in Dave, right, he's incredibly creative, his big focus on branding and marketing. Ben, from a, you know, it's incredibly commercial, fantastic, you know, in front of clients, probably one of the hardest workers I've ever worked with. James is a fantastic salesperson but brilliant when it comes to like, you know, systems, operations, and control. DJ, who's missing from that list, but we hired last year as our Chief Operations Officer, brings that together then from a really robust operations, finance, and accounting perspective. So when you're on a board, when you're in a board meeting, you've got an incredible balance and skill set and different individuals that bring different things to the table. And that, I think, is really important. And, you know, if anyone's looking to set up tomorrow, and you're thinking, who should I do it with? Probably wouldn't necessarily think about who's your best mate at that time. You know, you're more thinking about who do I admire and who— what can they teach me that I don't already know, and how can they complement my skill set? You know, that would probably be the individual you'd want to look to in setting up on your own, because complementary skill sets are so important.

Yeah, okay, interesting. I think that's what makes this industry so exciting, right? That how you've done things and who you are and the characteristics that make you does— like, and I could be the opposite but still have as much or more success, right? There isn't a real clear-cut of what you need to be. I think I find that super interesting. And yeah, and was you gonna say something?

I was just gonna say, I mean, I don't think, I don't think any, anyone's found the secret recipe of, of, um, you know, this is, this, this is what the, this this is what a half a million pound biller looks like as a trainee, you know. No one's got any certainty on that. And you can try and refine it and put science towards it. It's just a lot of it is environment, a lot of it's stuff that you just can't teach, a lot of it is willingness and desire and the ability to just work hard, you know. It's difficult to instill that, and it usually for me stems from, you know, right down to sort of childhood, really. So there's so much that goes into understanding the behaviors of someone and why they might be successful. And I certainly haven't worked out what that is. But, you know, if I think about our business, Trinovo Group as a business, and I think about es— sorry to keep on going back to using es— or Compute Futures, but, you know, we have got more creative consultants than than the business that I was at when I started Computer Futures. I've got to give a shout out to Oliver Perry and also to Kevin Adam, who were both in Borget and Soda in Ireland, and how they innovate and how they do things differently and how they encourage other people and drive engagement. They're two of the better examples across the industry for me. I don't ever think about billing consultants. You know, we've got people in our own business now that bill more on contracts than people I'd work with at Compute Futures. But if you look at the themes in those individuals, you know, the business has to provide the infrastructure, it has to provide a great deal of time. There's a maturity curve that goes with someone understanding your organization and being able to do things differently and being encouraged to to try and innovate. So it's not a one-size-fits-all approach, but I think if you're an organization that can give people freedom, a little bit of headroom, with the right infrastructure around training and development, you're doing as much as you possibly can to get a consultant to succeed in your business.

Okay, so as we come to the end here, Ash, I want to ask you one more question, and I just want to get your thoughts on sort how you've approached the last couple of months. So this question actually, Lauren encouraged me, Lauren Trent encouraged me to ask you this. So I think on the face of it, right, I'm sure you know this, but there's a lot of recruitment agencies in the UK. The number always changes, but circa around 30,000, let's say. 80% of those are sub-10 staff. So on the face of it, a lot of people look at you and your business and think it's just completely out of reach, never going to be that, all these things in terms of the size, profitability, whatever. But obviously, if you think about over the last few years or just the whole journey so far, what do you think have been the sort of biggest factors to the success so far, do you think?

Um, um, who asked that question? Lauren Trent? Yeah, gotta give her a shout out now. I don't know, she's— yeah, recently, um, recently met a shareholder last Friday actually. We rolled out our EMI scheme and we had just under 20 people become shareholders of the group. That's amazing. And that's an ingredient for success in itself. You have to, you know, how have we been able to get that scale? Firstly, you need to be in sectors that can scale. You need to have the right infrastructure, you need to have the right people in the right roles, the right financial performance metrics in place. Collaboration is super important, you know, encouraging your consultants to share information and not, you know, not work as individuals. I think the hiring piece stems from that, you know, in getting that right, getting the right people in the right roles, and then equally providing a path of progression, but, you know, not saying, well, lucky you, you've got a job, here's a phone and a computer, come back to me when you've built half a million pounds. You know, it's a bit more like this is the stepping stone that we'll lay out to help you get there, and it's the business's responsibility to do that. I think often that narrative needs to change a little bit. I think some businesses, there's a level of expectancy that you give someone a job and a phone and they owe you something, and actually they don't. As a business, you should recognize your responsibility to to invest into so many different areas. And I think that's, I think it's us recognizing that in terms of, you know, we've got a great operations function, a great shared service, and our business has really scaled when we got there. You know, we've got HR manager and compliance manager and chief operations officer, finance and accounting manager, marketing manager, director of internal recruitment. You know, these are, these effectively to a lot of businesses look like quite high cost of sales and they're not particularly prepared to invest into it. Actually, I share that perspective. I was very similar to that in my first couple of years. I just thought it seemed like quite a high cost. And actually, that operational piece is so important, having that infrastructure as a support function that's going to enable you to scale. I think, you know, in the last few years, we've invested heavily in those areas. And quite simply, recruitment, we shouldn't overcomplicate it. It's just getting the right people, you know, and get them in the right roles and provide the right retention tools. Let people earn well, give them a path of progression that might look like billing manager with P&L responsibility and then a continued path beyond that. And to get up to, to build a big business, you have to basically be prepared to give some of it away, you know, give it to the people that are working really hard day to day. And enable them to benefit from the business's success. Yeah.

Love that. So before we finish, Ash, I wanted to just get your thoughts on what your sort of mindset has been over the sort of COVID period. I'm sure, what were your sort of headcount growth goals before COVID What were our headcount growth goals?

I mean, we've increased our headcount during COVID That's what I mean.

So I just, so why I ask you that is because I think And obviously, just because me and you having chats and stuff, I feel like a lot of people going into COVID potentially just going completely on the defensive just because it was— they looked at their cash flow not in a good spot or whatever. And then there'll be some people like you, I feel like, that tries to recognise opportunities and haven't dropped your targets or whatever. So I was just keen to get a bit of perspective what your goals were before and if they've stayed the same and how have you gone about still trying to achieve the growth and the opportunity and the things that you wanted to before all this shit went down, basically?

Yeah, I mean, mate, firstly, how tough was that, right? Q2, unprecedented. There's not a rule book that exists, there's no path that's been trodden in the past, so you're trying to instill confidence, and I think in that you have to show a great deal of authenticity and empathy and As a leadership team, we were brilliant, you know, just were able to move quickly and adjust and innovate and rethink our pricing, repoint resources into areas of demand. We did that quickly. And as you mentioned, the right financial and performance metrics in place are critical to being able to not only just compete in Q2, but to sustain growth in Q2. It's really important as well. We were 94% of target for our Q2. And that was that Q2 target we set ourselves last year. We didn't move it, we kept that in place. So we performed well in that quarter. But, you know, there's a number of things that we were able to do in Q2 that didn't look like growth. You know, that we were able to improve a lot of the infrastructure we had in the business. We hired Cara from Faidan as our Director of Talent that could help us on the resource plans. We built out our organizational structures, not just this year, but for next year for growth. And actually, the leadership team were incredible, and the individuals we had in the business really did apply themselves. So, you know, I think we saw it as an opportunity to grow, actually. We were in a good position. And we felt, you know, recruitment is a saturated market, and as the market contracts, there's still opportunity for market share because it's such a saturated market. So if our competitors are overutilizing furlough, you know, we could— there's an opportunity for us to maybe speak to clients that we wouldn't have done otherwise. And we, you know, we applied ourselves and we continue to compete, and we felt that you treat people the right way, correctly, and come out of it the other side stronger than ever. So yeah, yeah, it was hard, you know. I'm not going to like glorify the period, it was difficult.

It's been difficult. Yeah, I think what I'm keen to ask you, Ash, just before I let you go, is, um, you spoke— you're clearly— the sort of journey that you've been on, you've recognized and been on the journey of the importance of values, vision, people, culture, these things. Spoken a lot about about that. And I think from the conversations I'm having, I don't know what your perspective is, but from the conversations that I've been having, it seems like this period has enabled employees to look in the mirror, which is the business they work for, and look at their culture. And if it's a business they support, business that they like, a business that they're proud to be a part of during this period, or it's left people disappointed and they've gone, you know what, I've hated how Ash has dealt with this or whatever, right? I guess the question is really is like, how much do you think that investment in your culture has helped you achieve those things and have helped you during the last 3, 4 months?

Critical, 100% critical. It's very difficult to, you know, very difficult indeed to keep a business together, right, when everyone's kind of working from home. It's really difficult, but culture and accountability and engagement and having a great leadership team is critical to that. So yeah, absolutely, without our culture, we wouldn't probably, you know, but it's very difficult. I think to continue to compete in Q2 and hire talent is another thing. I think that's just us demonstrating our continued investment back into the business and we'll will come out the other side stronger than ever. I think, just to pick up on that point, I think it's easy to do well in a good market. It's a little bit like, we've grown from nought to 90 people in a relatively short period of time, over a 7-year period. And I've won awards at for Best Agency with one of the brands at every single awards, you know, do's out there, or the ones that are worth attending anyway, and you're a little bit like imposter syndrome, you know, a little bit like, you know, this is easy, we're winning awards, we're hiring great people, and our business is growing, and you sort of think that it's come around a little bit too easy, and actually the COVID period was a great test of that. It was, you know, that imposter syndrome is definitely gone. And yeah, it was a bit of a reality check. And we, you know, as I say, we've reevaluated the business, got the right financial performance metrics in place, and we're in a really good place for growth and internationalization for the rest of this year. But it was a tough period, and, you know, let's see whether or not it returns again. But certainly we've started to see some confidence in the market come back. Already.

Love that, Ash. Final question really, how do you see the land lay over the next 6 to 12 months? What do you think will be the biggest shift, do you think, in the recruitment industry?

In the UK recruitment industry?

Whatever, just whatever comes to mind. What do you think will stay or how do you think the land will lay as we all start to come back out of this?

I think it's a really difficult question. I thought I was done about 5 minutes ago. Sorry. I think certainly, you know, we're mindful of, mindful of IR35, mindful of Brexit in the UK. So, you know, a lot of businesses now, if they're not, they should be looking to internationalize, making, you know, We've got our office, and it was a big investment for us in the US, and we've also got kind of a big strategic focus for us towards DAX, Switzerland and Germany. I think we'll certainly see more UK businesses looking to diversify outside of the UK and internationalize. I think it's absolutely certain that that will happen. I think recruiters quite rightly will expect flexibility in working conditions. I was a little bit surprised to see so many businesses go back to the office and wearing it with a badge of honor that they were back in the office. I don't know, for me, I just felt that you're sort of missing the point a little bit and overlooking the safety piece. And, you know, we're not returning to the office. We'll review it on the 1st of September, but, you know, we sort of came out and said we won't be returning. And I think quite rightly, people aren't overly comfortable with the public transport situation. So over the next 6 months, I don't see that going anywhere. I think businesses will have to adjust. If they don't, they'll lose people. Those people will go to businesses that may be better equipped and more susceptible to having people work from home and giving them a bit more flexibility and ultimately trust. So I think those working conditions will be really interesting to see what evolves. And then I think we might see some growth in a handful of sectors, some interesting sectors. I think we'll see spikes in growth in a couple of those, so software engineering as an example.

Ash, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Pleasure, mate. Thanks very much.