Bea Meyrick - It’s ALL about your track record when cracking a tough market

A lot of the consultancies, you know, now that I speak to, we're just using our direct network. We know people. Once upon a time, those consultancies didn't need me. With it being a small world, there will be people that I know that you guys maybe don't know, or people who are, you know, kind of relatively new to the market who you're not aware of, you haven't come across. There will be a time, even if that's not right now, that you will need help. Or what if something goes drastically wrong and you lose 3, 4 people? Then that's the exact time that you might need me.

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Bee from IO Associates. I reached out to Bee because I saw her post on LinkedIn where she became the first female within IO Associates to hit the 15K weekly GP milestone. So in this episode, you're going to learn exactly how Bee got there, and it certainly hasn't been a straightforward path. She'd come up to 5 years in recruitment, and for the last 3 or so years she's been at IO Associates. But before contract recruitment, she was in an environment where she was doing perm engineering, whereas over the last 3 years she's been doing it contracts within the secure government and defense space— a completely different market. Now, in her first year, which was around COVID, she ended up getting to around 1,100 weekly GP. A ton of deals dropped and it was a challenge. She even blanked for 5 months. But over the last 2 years, in 2022, she ended up building her book to 10K weekly GP, and then in 2023, 15K weekly GP. So you are going to learn everything around how the hell she got there, the biggest challenges, what she would do differently. So yeah, this is going to be a real masterclass on all things contract recruitment, building relationship, building your client, and also just building confidence in your own internal mindset. Enjoy the episode. Bea, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, thanks for having me.

Second time lucky?

Yeah, indeed.

Feeling better?

I am, yes.

Obviously the first time was feeling a bit rough.

Yeah.

Didn't want to get in the pod studio not feeling 100%.

No.

So here we are, thanks for making the trip from Bristol, appreciated.

Do you come to London much? Not as much as I'd like to.

Yeah?

So yeah, it's great to be here.

Did you grow up in Bristol?

No, I'm actually Welsh.

Really?

Yeah, and that's about as far west as you can go. I'm from a place called Tenby in Pembrokeshire. Okay, not much going on.

How far is Wales from Bristol?

Um, well, where I'm from, 2 and a half hours. Okay, so long enough.

Um, is Bristol home now?

Yeah, definitely.

Love it. Yeah, nice. I need to— I need to like— I met someone today who said if I was to live somewhere else, it'd be Bristol, and I haven't— I feel like I haven't spent enough time there.

Yeah, it's great. Um, it took me a while to get used to it. It was different to anywhere I'd ever been before, but But, um, yeah, I've been there nearly 5 years and I can't imagine being anywhere else.

I love that. Cool. So today we're gonna unpack this recruitment journey that you've been on.

Sure.

So I guess before we start with the million-pound question, I want to unpack some of the, like, just, just some high-level details. So you've, you're coming— so you've been in recruitment coming up to 5 years.

Yeah.

I think today what we're going to really focus on is this contract journey that you've been on with IO. So for the last 3 and a bit years you've been with IO, is it Associates?

Yes.

Yeah, cool. So you've been specifically in the IT contract space in the secure government and defense sector?

Yeah.

So high-level details here, and this is what we're going to unpack. Year 1 performance for me, Jan 2021, your weekly GP was £1,100. Year 2022, Jan, £10K weekly GP. And then what actually prompted me to reach out was I saw your post Jan 2023, first female contract biller in IO Associates— I think I've got that correctly— to hit the 15K weekly GP mark. Yeah, is that right? Yep, absolutely amazing achievement. And obviously today we're going to talk about how the hell we got there, right? What we learned the way, the challenges, all of that. But I guess before we do, I'd love to hear sort of your take from everything, everything that you've learned, the people you met along the way, In your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you believe make up a highly successful recruiter in today's market?

Yeah, absolutely. So, there's a number of things. I think the most two obvious ones that stand out would be resilience and tenacious. I think everyone knows that, everyone's aware that those are very important traits. I think when you really unpack it, somebody has an intrinsic why, as to why they're doing recruitment. It's not an easy job, as I'm sure anyone listening knows. So, I think somebody has to have something deeper than just, "I'll work hard, I'm motivated." They've got to have something internally that when they have those down days, when they're really, really going through a really hard patch, they've got something inside of them that's kind of pushing them to keep going. So, I think being aware of that why and being able to dig deep and find it is is definitely what I'd say is most important.

What's been your why then? Let's start there. I'm sure you thought I might ask that.

I did indeed, yeah. So, yeah, I came— I guess it goes back to sort of upbringing. So both my parents, when I analysed it, have all the traits that, you know, you would want from a successful recruiter. They couldn't do anything more different. So, living in rural Wales, and then, yeah, they've decided to go and set up their own tourist attraction, which is actually a dinosaur park for kids. Love that. Bit wild. But, you know, they've both been super, super successful. And I think growing up seeing them, you know, literally start from scratch and build that business, you know, and I've seen them struggle and go through times when things, they're not having a good year or, you know, they make a decision that, you know, didn't pay off or, you know, wasn't the right one. But, you know, they've never stopped working hard. They've never stopped wanting more. And equally, you know, kind of, I guess, pushing that onto myself as well. Yeah, exactly.

Do you think you're— so like maybe when you first started out in recruitment, like, do you feel like— because I always think your why can almost evolve. Like, I think sometimes, like, if you sort of sit there and go, right, I need to figure out my why, that might be a quite difficult thing to do. Like, do you feel like your sort of why has evolved over time?

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, at the start I probably didn't have or wasn't aware of what my why was. Um, you know, I knew I wanted to make them proud, um, as obviously most people do, but it wasn't so kind of obvious to me Obviously, at that stage, I hadn't had to dig deep and have those hard days. Some people's might just be that they've grown up in not a nice area, not a nice house, and so they want to buy a million-pound house. I know that's one of my colleagues. So, it definitely evolves, and I think once you've had a little taste of success and it go well, that really helps you to find what that intrinsic why is.

Okay, so let's unpack this contract journey that you've been on then. So obviously prior to you doing IT contract, you was in— correct me if I'm wrong— perm engineering.

Yeah, that's correct.

So how, like, how different would you say that is to like your world now?

It couldn't have been more different, really.

Okay, so like, let's just, let's just first talk about that because I feel like, like, that can oftentimes be something that recruiters are quite, um, what's the word, fearful of. Like, if I'm doing well in certain sector, or I'm in a certain sector and I'm starting to feel like, you know what, I would want a new challenge, these things, but I'm gonna have to go into a new sector, that, that can— yeah, a lot of people might be really worried about that. So I guess firstly, maybe it'd be good if you could share, like, what was Bee's approach to, like, getting to grips with, with this market? Like, looking back, how did you go about that?

Yeah, sure. So I made the move to IO just before COVID so pretty bad timing on my part. But yes, it's November 2019, so I had a couple of months to start getting to grips with tech, which I really, really struggled with. I had no idea what my initial market was. Java, I had no idea, you know, what that was. And even looking at a CV, I couldn't tell whether it was good, whether it was bad. I just didn't really know where I was starting. Um, and obviously then COVID hit, um, and I was just getting setback after setback speaking to clients. I had done a couple of deals, um, and all of those dropped, um, so it's back to zero out. And, uh, yeah, obviously tough to deal with, especially when you're not, you're not in an office surrounded by, you know, your colleagues, your friends to be helping you. Um, so I just spent all my time speaking to candidates because I was finding when I was speaking to clients, it was, we're not hiring, like, and you almost felt silly calling them to try and get jobs. Um, so I just decided to spend that time maximizing on, you know, speaking to my network, finding out from them, um, you know, the, the trends, you know, all this kind of stuff. Um, and I came across, um, well, it came across, um, a number of small consultancies who were hiring. Um, all of them were specifically within sort of SC and DV cleared work. Um, so, you know, what does that stand for? Um, so security cleared and develop vetting, both super high levels of clearance, um, which are primarily used within, um, Ministry of Defense, um, or sort of secure government work.

Okay.

Um, really interesting. Um, obviously there's a lot of stuff that I'm not allowed to know, so it does make it hard to recruit for sometimes. But, um, yeah, I just maximize on, on that time with my candidates and just ask them as many questions as possible to, to really get a good understanding of, of how it all worked.

And let— like, if it's okay, let's just talk about this for a sec because I think this would be really helpful for people. So like, how— looking back, like, what do these sort of conversations sound like? Because I think when I speak to recruiters, particularly who are early on, this is something that people do struggle with. They're not sure how to get to grips with. Obviously you can go on Google, you can read articles, you can listen to podcasts, these things. But obviously one of the great things that you can do is speak to candidates and build your network and these things. So Are you literally like, how are you approaching this conversation? Is it very much like, hey look, I'm, I'm B, I'm an IO Associates, like, um, I may not be able to massively help you right now, I'm new to the market, I'm sort of really keen to learn and understand, like, I'm— and then you're just asking questions like, what, what did those conversations actually sound like for you to actually learn from these people? Because I think sometimes people are fearful of looking and feeling stupid.

Yeah.

And like, you're a recruiter calling these candidates up, so you're meant to be the expert in these things. You get what I mean?

Yeah, no, of course. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, initially they were very much, you know, I'm new, can you help me, what can you tell me? Um, but they evolved and it, it became, you know, as, as we got deeper into COVID, it became, um, me being able to give them something back. So I was able to tell them, you know, if they'd been out of a job since March or, you know, whenever, I was able to tell them, look, this consultancy are hiring, I can't help you, I don't actually work with them, but I know from speaking with other candidates that these guys and this company are hiring. So because you were, you know, tipping them off, you were giving them information that really wasn't actually going to help you, they were so happy to give something back. And it's funny, when I look back now, actually two of the clients I work with, the candidates that I had obviously given those kind of tip-offs to ended up referring me into consultancies further on down the line. It's just about the bigger picture and it's, you know, recruitment's a long, long old game.

See, this is, this is so interesting, right? Because we were talking about this yesterday and a training session that we did. But like, how— like, now you can, you can see that with hindsight, but like, when you're in it, it's hard. It's sometimes hard to see the bigger picture. Yeah, did you know what I mean?

Absolutely.

So like, I don't know if there's any— like, by you sharing that story, that's massively helpful. It makes people feel like, oh, you know what, doing the right thing and helping people, it's not necessarily always about getting something in return. However, that will likely be remembered. It will be memorable. I have helped them, so they might— they're at some point that might come back, and if it does, great. But like, how can we help recruiters understand or see the bigger picture when they're in the thick of— they've got a target to hit that month, they've— do you know what I mean?

Yeah, it is tricky. And I think the reason I was lucky was because of COVID there was maybe less pressure. And I think something that, you know, has helped since then is maybe looking at things in quarters or, you know, a 6-month period as opposed to every month, like, I've got a score, I've got to do a deal. You know, not everyone, you know, not every month is going to be perfect, and there's only sort of 30, 31 days in a month, so stuff can roll, you know. But, you know, if you've not scored one month, that means you might do 6, 7 deals the next. So that was definitely something that helped me. Um, I think when I go back to, to me being in those, you know, in those shoes, it was, it was just very much sort of thinking, you know, I've, I've got to be doing something. If, if I'm calling clients and they're saying no, well, fine, what can I be getting from these candidates? You know, still be, still be pushing to get leads, to get any sort of market information that I can. And, um, yeah, it's obviously paid off.

I love that. So, okay, cool. So let's talk about then— what it sounds like is you stumbled across this niche. Yeah, you ended up really focusing on.

Yeah.

So talk me through— I think this is important, and hopefully this comes across like— and I'm sure you drive this with your team now. Yeah. But I hear all the time, particularly in contract leads, leads, leads, get information, all that. It's massively important. Maximize the candidate calls. You need to go, what's going on, all that. Now what I'd love you to share is like, there's one thing getting the information, then there's another thing acting on that. So like, what, what is it that you picked up on that then made you go, hang on a minute, there's a potential opportunity here? So like, what is it that sort of— what was maybe some of the lagging indicators, or just something that you really started to pick up on to go you know what, I'm really going to commit to trying to maximize this information I keep hearing.

Yeah, sure. Well, look, I think it's, you know, everyone talks about having a niche. Everyone talks about, you know, kind of having that one special area that you focus on because you can't, you know, you can't call up a client and say I'm a specialist in Java because, yeah, fine, how many other recruiters are, you know, are trying to focus on Java? But, you know, when you niche that down into looking at, you know, security cleared or, you know, candidates with developed vetting working in these smaller markets, you can really be a specialist. I think when these candidates were telling me these clients are hiring, it was trying to have a look at candidates maybe who were already working there, be CV stripping, looking at places they'd worked previously, having conversations with them, going through their LinkedIn connections, seeing who they're connected with and where they're working. You just really start to build up this list and you know, essentially market mapping who your target clients are going to be. I think once you start sort of ticking them off as well, like, you know, once you've managed to get one on, you know, if you've placed someone, you obviously know hopefully there's a vacancy elsewhere where they've just come from. And it's just about kind of, you know, steadily making your presence known and, you know, becoming more of a specialist as you go through.

Yeah, I love that. This word market mapping, like, how important is that?

Oh gosh, yeah, it's, yeah. Super, super important.

What was— how do you market map? Because like, I'll be honest, I, I hear this more. When we sat down, I was telling you about, um, before we started, Alicia, she, she's like huge on this organization. It's been a game changer for her.

Yeah.

Uh, I interviewed a guy called, um, Ethan who was like proper on this as well, market mapping. Like, so how, how does Bee market map? Like, have you got a spreadsheet? Are you— is this something that you do every single week still?

Yeah, I definitely try to. I mean, it's, it's harder as you get busier. Um, But, yeah, it comes from a combination of things, so speaking with candidates and getting leads is obviously a great way to do so. CV stripping, again, is super important, and it's quick. Sometimes, if you've got a candidate who's been around for however long, they'll have 5, 6 companies that are going to be target clients for you. So, it's getting those client names, then whether you're speaking to candidates who are currently working there to try and find out who the who the people you want to be speaking to are, or whether it's LinkedIn. Um, you know, there's, there's various different ways that you can, you can track those people down. Um, events as well are so, so good for, for this kind of thing. Um, yeah.

Okay. And then, and then how do you keep— like, I guess just curious, like, what's ended up being your, your system? Maybe early on, like, did you— I don't know, did you just keep, like, just keep growing this ever sort of breathing, like, spreadsheet? Or I don't know, how did you organize that?

Yeah, so, um, on our CRM, we're able to, to code contacts or, you know, candidates up. So I guess just having a system with that. So whether I was coding them with the tech they're using and then the level of clearance they've got. Yeah. So they're easy to then kind of have in a list.

I bet your company love you then if you're doing it all on CRM rather than spreadsheets.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spreadsheets are a thing of the past for us. Okay, fair enough.

Okay, cool. So, so I guess what it sounded like then, there was a bit of a moment where obviously you were sort of recognizing this during COVID that they were hiring. So then like you just tried to obviously capitalize that and maximize that. But obviously you're building relationships with candidates, you're letting people know that these types of companies are hiring, and then it sort of built from there. So it seems like the opportunity was more so that in the current climate these are consultancies that are growing rather than like making layoffs and these things. And then that's where I guess it then grew from there then.

Yeah, definitely.

So talk us through, like, I guess it would be useful context, like this world that you're recruiting them. My only other, um, exposure to it is I did some work with a company called Evolution Recruitment that had a team that do, um, defense or like that sort of world. So like you said there, it'd be useful for, um, in terms of context. So like when you say there's stuff that you can't know, like what, what, like what, like, because it seems all a bit mysterious, you know what I mean? So like what, what, what does it, what does that actually mean in, in your world?

Yeah, okay.

So with what you can say, yeah. You're allowed to say unless you get in trouble.

No, no, that's cool. So, I don't have any level of clearance myself, so to get these types of clearances, you've got to go through mega, mega checks, so whether that's financial type checks, it goes through your family's history as well, it's obviously criminal checks, any drug tests, that kind of thing. It's quite kind of intrinsic, the stuff that they go through. I think there's, you know, there's obviously stuff that you're not allowed to know because you don't hold this clearance. So the types of clients, I guess, that these consultancies are delivering into would be the likes of like MI5, MI6. They're keeping our country safe. So the projects they're working on, if they know information, you know, they can't be sharing that with me. I'm not allowed to know the specific projects that these guys are working on.

So surely that means like there's even more variables here on the candidate side.

There are.

They have to go through even more checks than maybe like a typical IT contractor would in like a not that type of world.

Yeah, that's kind of all out of my hands. You know, I obviously don't get involved in any of that. And once these guys have got these levels of clearances, they, um, they keep them for, you know, 5, 10 years.

Right. Because they've been through that process.

Exactly. Yeah. Um, the tricky thing is the clearances lapse if they, um, if they come out of a, out of a role and don't use it for a certain period of time. So that can be super frustrating if you found a candidate who, you know, has the level of clearance you need and then they've taken a break or they've, you know, not been able to get a new, a new role and their contract's finished, um, they're kind of new to you.

Yeah, okay, cool. So cool, I'm glad I understand that. So I guess what, what I feel like people would absolutely love to understand is like, let's just start with like, obviously there's a whole element of B is building her market, you're building credibility, you're building your niche, but why don't we just sort of start this conversation with like Obviously going from £1,100 weekly GP to £10,000 weekly GP, that's, that's a big difference.

Yeah.

So like, why don't we just start with like, what would you— yeah, what, what would you say, what were some of the main things? When I say to you, what was B doing differently, putting aside there's time, you're obviously hopefully slowly learning, improving, you're building a track record, like what, what do you think that you were doing differently, um, to sort of get to that point, do you think?

So I think the main thing was once I had got one client on in this, in this industry and had delivered, you know, a project team for them, so maybe 6, 7, 8 contractors, that kind of level of credibility, you know, just really, really paid off. It's such a small world. So I was actually getting referred from, you know, from this one first client that I ended up placing with into another client. and you've got these names to refer back to. Everyone knows everyone, so if I can say I work with company X or company Y, that to these companies over here is actually super, super relevant. Alongside that, it was just my, I think my work rate just kind of must have tripled. Once you see success, it's so much easier to work hard. You know what the rewards look like. You want to get on the holidays, the lunch clubs, whatever else that, you know, recruitment gives to you, as well as obviously starting to see some financial reward as well, which when you're, you know, you're on your basic and you've maybe done one or two deals, you're not really getting much commission. It can be harder to be motivated. But I think, you know, once that sort of catalyst has started, yeah, it's—

Building momentum.

Yeah, sure.

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So can I just ask you then, I know, I know it sounds really obvious, but I'll be honest, like speaking to a lot of recruiters at the moment, and typical and most common challenge right now is business development and winning good quality business consistently, or it's proven to be more and more difficult to do that. So what you're saying there is obviously, yeah, we've got the benefit of the type of industry that you're in, that it might be a bit more close-knit than maybe some other industries. Totally fair, and that makes sense. But I think when I speak to a lot of recruiters, I think what's actually really underutilized, which you've just said has been really important, is showcasing your case studies, um, and what you've already done. So it'd be good if, if you like, we can grow granular here. I know it sounds really simple, like, oh, I just told Company X that we did this at that company, but like, how did you actually approach showcasing that B has done this for that company? Like, how do you actually approach it? Did you just say look, we've helped this company, so we can help you. Or was it like, hey, look, we just helped your direct competitor, like, would you be open to having a conversation? Was it like, hey, we've helped them solve this problem, or we've helped them build this product? You know what I mean? Because I think— I don't know what you feel about this, but I think a lot of recruiters can gain that confidence and credibility by these things. And they don't necessarily have to be their own case studies. Like, if I join your team tomorrow, why can't I, like, use what our team's done? Do you get what I mean? So it'd be good if you don't mind sharing, if there is anything to share on like how did you actually go about maximizing that track record? Because I think a lot of people don't.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the first thing I did was exactly what you just said. So, you know, it was to get a really well-worded email together, you know, showcasing what I've done for competitors to, you know, and essentially say, look, you know, I can do this, here's an example. 'Could we speak about how I can help you guys,' whether that's now or in the future. And I think something really big to focus on is if you don't know that that company are bidding or have just won a massive project, it can be about in the future. Again, it's going back to that this is a long game. You might not do a placement with that company for 6, 12 months, but if you've kind of got ahead and you've had that conversation so they know where you are when they need you, then that's great and that's a win, and you need to be able to to see that. I think I'd then maybe try and follow that up with a busy call, but it's so much warmer because you've already put your case across to them. You've got that to fall back to. Did you see my email? And it's not— obviously, it can be intimidating making a cold call, so it's so much nicer to have that email there to take them through and discuss properly.

Love that. No, that's a really good point. And then just curious, I know we're going granular here, but this is what people want help with. No, I really like that, and it sounds simple, but it's about the actual doing that, right? So I guess what I'd love you to just share all your thoughts on would be if you send me that email and I'm in your space and I read it and it's like, oh yeah, like, okay, that sounds interesting, she's done that for another company, weird like that, this person might be able to help me at some point. You call me and I tell you that, um, yeah, we're not actually hiring at the moment, but as you said taking a step back, thinking of the bigger picture is important. So like, what's the sort of why that you try and communicate as to why that person should give you time? Do you know what I mean? Because I think that's, that's the important thing. And I don't know what you think about this, but again, speaking to a lot of recruiters and the recruiters that have been really successful for a long time, it's because they have got good at thinking of the bigger picture and not just having a short-term focus but also medium and long-term focus. I think sometimes a lot of recruiters can just be focused on are they hiring right now? If they're not, okay, move on. So like, what would the typical like why be around? Okay, like, well, this is why you should give me 30 minutes so we can have a conversation, do you know what I mean? If they're not hiring, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, so I think, you know, I've definitely had this a lot. Okay, um, a lot of the consultancies certainly, um, you know, now that I speak to, it's we're just using our direct network, um, you know, we know people. And, and almost the fact it's a small world can work against me. I guess what I sort of say to counter that is, again, rely on the case studies that have worked because once upon a time, those consultancies didn't need me, but now, look what I've done, look what I've been able to help. With it being a small world, it's like there will be people that I know that you guys maybe don't know, or people who are relatively new to the market who you're not aware of, you haven't come across. It's just about that. You know, there will be a time, even if that's not right now, that you will need help. Or, you know, what if something goes drastically wrong and you lose 3, 4 people, you know, in a relatively short pace of— sorry, in a relatively short time, um, you know, then that's the exact time that you might need me.

Um, what about then? Surely, like, because of the weather you're in, surely you can— like, you speak to these people all the time, so surely, like, also you might be able to offer some sort of, like, insight, or do you know what I mean, into the market? Well, just in general, like, why— okay, well, why, why would I give you my time if I'm not hiring? And you just said, well, look, these types of companies initially said that they didn't need my help, but we sort of start to build a relationship, understood what they might need in the future, and then when they needed me, we started working together. But like, surely also, as well as just people, you like, you speak to similar people all the time. I don't know that— surely there's other things that you could also add value on which is why I'd be happy to give you 30 minutes besides just speaking about how many contractors I need.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I guess, you know, I'm hearing from, from the candidates I'm speaking to all the time, you know, that they don't, they don't have that, the time to be speaking to them, to be understanding, you know, maybe what's going on outside of this consultancy, um, you know, or, you know, that X amount of people may be coming available, that kind of thing. Um, so yeah, it's about using those conversations I'm having with other clients, um, you know, or other candidates, um, or maybe, you know, internally other people at IO who do similar markets, um, you know, and being able to kind of represent that to them.

So work ethic tripled.

Yeah.

What does that mean? Like, what did that actually look like?

Um, so I guess it kind of went from somebody who wasn't, you know, was, was, wasn't really that motivated, um, you know, was was struggling to get any wins and probably was feeling quite down. You know, how on earth, you know, you come into recruitment and it's, yeah, you'll earn £35k in your first year and your second you'll be on £100k and you think, yeah, that's great. But yeah, hats off to anyone who's managed to do that. Yeah. And I think it's tricky. It was kind of getting to me like, you know, what am I doing? I've been to uni, I've traveled, you know, everything's always been kind of fairly easy, you know. And then I'm now in a situation where I'm really not good at something. and, and it was really hard to kind of overcome that. I think at the time I'm banging on now about, you know, look at the bigger picture, that kind of thing. But gosh, at that time it wasn't—

you found it difficult.

Yeah, it was all just like, what, what, where are my wins? Why aren't I winning now? Um, and I was, I was definitely impatient.

Um, impatient.

Yeah. But when I look back now, it's like, you know, those— there was— I was definitely learning learning in that whole, that whole time. Um, I look back and I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have changed any of that for the world.

So he was— yeah, I think this is an interesting thing, right? I was listening to a podcast the other day.

Yeah.

And I don't know what you think about this, and it's like, when you're in your career, like, particularly when you're like building your career, I think he was just, uh, this person was just saying about how like leaning into like learning rather than earning is a probably a good strategy over the long term. Yeah, so like what it sounds like we shared then is like what you recognize is, okay, I might not be earning what I feel I should be, and I might be being a bit impatient about what I'm earning. However, let's actually put a lot more value on how much I'm learning, like how much I've improved since when I started, and like how much more I know about my market now, and how many more people that I do know. Do you get what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, one of the things that I say to my guys all the time now, um, is if you're not if you're not winning, then you're learning. Because, you know, absolutely, if something goes wrong, it's like, what can I learn from this? And, um, and the fact that you're able to learn something from it, the fact that you're able to take something away, is a massive win in itself.

So a lot of people feel those things that you felt and quit.

Yeah.

So like, why didn't you then?

I don't quit. You don't quit? Yeah, I don't quit. I, um, I couldn't have gone back home and said, you know, I can't do it. I think that there probably were times when I did call home and say, God, I don't want to be here, I don't know what I'm doing, but I don't, I don't have it. I didn't think I had it in me to actually turn around and say, you know, to myself, you know, or to anyone else, I can't do this. Um, so that wasn't an option. I was, I was going to make it work no matter, you know, no matter what. But, um, Yeah, there were definitely days where I doubted it.

And then like, was there anything that you started to like focus more on compared to like not getting the big win of getting a contract deal or whatever? I don't know if there's anything that you could sort of pinpoint that you started to just have a bit of a perspective change or start to focus on different things, and then that— and then when you did then actually get the outcome that you wanted, 5 contractors out or whatever, that only then sort of helped things like Yeah, definitely.

I think even now, you know, tiny little wins still can mean a lot. You know, if I come across a new consultancy that I know require the types of clearances that I recruit for, I'm buzzing. That's my day made, you know. And even now, it's funny, I celebrate a new candidate in my market who's looking. If it's not someone I know, or even if it is someone I know and they're back on the market, sometimes I celebrate that more than a job. Because I know how tricky these people can be to find. Um, and when I take that back a notch to maybe, um, my more junior days, it, you know, that was very much the same. Um, you know, whether it's a new candidate, whether it's a lead for a company I haven't heard before, um, you know, that, that itself is, is a huge win.

Yes, that's a really good point for everyone listening to— yeah, not just sort of make your wins the end outcome, right? Because if, if you, if you do that, then you're always gonna— I don't know, there's gonna be less wins, right? And it's gonna be a lot more difficult, particularly when you're feeling like you're not getting any of the results. But you might have been making progress in a whole bunch of other areas.

Yeah, exactly.

So talk me, talk me through then. So obviously you said that you really sort of doubled down on your work ethic. Um, people love knowing day plans on this podcast. Yeah, they really do. So like, talk me through— it could be more like more recently now, but maybe So when did you, when did you start, um, the sort of management journey? Because are you on the management journey? Have you got people in your team?

Yeah, I am.

So when did you start that?

Um, February last year.

February last year?

Yeah.

Okay, so maybe we could do it because I feel like you're gonna have to incorporate like management one-on-one stuff.

Yes. Yeah.

So before you had team members, what was like B's day plan? Was it pretty regimented? Like, what did that look like? Particularly as you were obviously growing this contract book?

Yeah, so definitely tried to be. Obviously, sometimes things go out the window, but my main focus, certainly in the mornings, was always candidates. You know, if I was speaking to candidates, I'd have targets, so I'd want to be getting, you know, a couple of leads, you know, ideally some new hiring sites, and more importantly within that, contractor hiring sites as well as contractor team sizes, because that can tell you so much, you know, how much potential does this client have? If this person's in a team with, I don't know, one contractor, then it's probably not going to be a massive sort of target client for you. But if they're in a team of 15 contractors, then, uh, the pound signs sort of start, start.

Okay, so morning candidates.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What, they're in time on them?

Yep, pretty much. And then before lunch, I'd probably send out, um, an e-shot to clients of maybe the hottest candidate I found that day. Um, and then the afternoon would be BD. So whether that was sort of calling through that, um, A shot I just sent out, um, hey, have you seen my email? What are your thoughts on this candidate? And then trying to sell them in, um, and then, you know, admin and, and sort of lesser things at the end of the day.

Talk me through, like, I just feel like I did permanent recruitment, right? Okay, so I don't know, I just feel like every time I sit down with a contract recruiter, like, so much of it is centered around like information, like you just said there, in terms of like size of contract site How many contractors are with all that? So I don't know, like, just curious, like, how— what advice do you have for people to, um, be better at getting information? Because like, surely you don't want the other person on the end of the phone feeling like she's just trying to get information out of me, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So like, if that's absolutely crucial, which it sounds like it is, information, acting on it leads, getting leads, all this. How have you got better at getting information, and do you have advice for people that do want to get better at that without surely the other person just feeling like they're just trying to get all this information out of me? How much value they're giving me?

Yeah, so it's got to be a conversation. Um, you know, if you, if you hear newbies on the phone, sometimes it's like they call up and they go through their candidate qualification sheet and they ask the questions, but there's— they don't give anything back. And so, you put yourself in that candidate's shoes. If you're speaking to someone who's asking you a load of questions, so, sounds so scripted, why are you going to trust them with any information? Whereas if you're kind of having a proper chat with them, you're invested, you're actually wanting to understand more about them, which obviously is still asking questions, but it's asking more genuine questions. And one thing that I've definitely found is, you're not, you're not necessarily going to get leads and loads of information on that first call. But if you're the recruiter that's calling those candidates back, that's saying, I'm really sorry, the role I spoke to you about has been put on hold, or, um, it's been filled internally— yes, it's a negative update, but they really, really appreciate that update and that continuity. And, you know, on the fourth, fifth, sixth call, they're probably starting to trust you, and at that point, they're more willing to, to share information and to share leads with you.

Yeah, so making it— yeah, like less transactional, basically.

Exactly.

Okay, that's, that's interesting. And then I guess what, what I always like to ask, and it might be what we're talking about, but from, from your perspective, what do you believe contract recruiters have to absolutely master to be, to be great at it? Would you say any particular activity, or just, I don't know, what comes up for you?

Yeah, so I think the main thing is understanding your own strengths. If I look at our sort of senior leadership team across our team at IO, there's sort of 6 of us and we all have very different individual strengths. We're all very different recruiters, but if I tried to master every single one of those, it's probably not doable. You're never going to be perfect, and there's different personalities within that as well. So, I think it's really starting to understand where your wins are coming from. And, and really maximize on those.

So like what's working for you?

Yeah, exactly.

What was yours then?

So it'd be my candidate relationships. Yeah.

How do you get better at that?

It comes with time. Um, you know, again, it goes back to like you can't just have one call and expect them to give you everything. Um, you know, but once you've, you know, placing someone obviously helps massively. But even at that point, some of my best relationships with candidates who you know, before I found this niche, it was, it was just candidates that I had the time for and I spoke to. And again, sometimes sharing information that doesn't benefit you, so telling them X company's hiring, I don't work with them, but why don't you try and apply direct, or, you know, approach someone on LinkedIn.

And then is that, is it like the kind of, like, where would you say, you mentioned like newbies there, where do you see, uh, sort of people that are newer on their contract recruitment, uh, journey typically, like fall short a lot of the time, or like struggle with early on, or typical stumbling blocks that you sort of see people go through? Um, still talking about like the candidate relationship, just as a whole, like if you've got— if you've just— what you've seen like now because you've come out the other side. Yeah, you've obviously— yeah, like really sort of continue to build on what you've worked hard for. I don't know if there's any sort of common stumbling blocks that you see people make.

Yeah, definitely. I think continuity. Like so often, you know, you'll see a note on the system that they've called someone, they've told them they're going to be hiring in 2 months' time but then there's no callback and it's, you know, it's, it's just left. So I think organization and, and continuity are both super duper important.

Yeah, we spoke about this yesterday, the, uh, art of follow-up. Yeah, yeah, uh, it's interesting. A lot of— we ask people like, do you have a system to do your follow-ups or to make sure you never miss a follow-up? Yeah, most people put no, not really, or sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. What's your— do you have a system to make sure that that isn't you who found that out and then forgot to give them a call back?

Yeah, so I just use my diary, um, like on Outlook.

Very simple, just like, well, like, um, event reminder or—

yeah, exactly. So if I speak to someone and they say, look, not right now, but if you give me a call back, you know, in February, then yeah, I'll be looking, then that's fine. That goes, goes in my diary, probably to give them a call back a little bit before that so I'm not, you know, I'm not missing it. Um, and yeah, just, just make sure that I'm doing that.

And then when it comes to then hitting that amazing milestone of 15K weekly GP, yeah, I feel like then you can let me know what you think, but like going firstly, I guess going into that third year, was that your like goal? Did you think that was possible?

Yeah, so I think once, once I hit 10K, it was kind of the realization like I can do this. Um, and so Naturally, you don't want that high to end, you know, you don't want to think, oh, you know, that was me at 10K. I think the fact that no girl I know had ever got to 15K made it something I really, really wanted to do. There's a girl who I worked with at my previous company, and I work with her, she's one of my closest friends, and I've often been the second girl to do things too after her, so you know, sort of 5K, 10K, so that 15K was, you know, a bit of friendly rivalry, Healthier competition. Exactly. Yeah.

So I feel like then when, when you're in that position, rather than what we're speaking about before, it, it, it more becomes around like marginal gains and like tweaking things.

Yeah.

So like, what were some of the things like, do you were like really focusing on maybe like tweaking or just getting those extra percentages out that could potentially in the long run mean that you then find yourself at 15K out of interest?

Yeah, so it was things like sending candidates to clients a little bit more. So, even if they told me we're not hiring until then, if I had a good candidate, they were getting sent because it was like, even on the off chance that they might take them on, absolutely, I'm going to send them. I guess it was trying to make the most of my margins as well. So, what can I do here? If you're working on an average margin with someone, maybe you can get a little bit more out here and take a little bit less in the future, or maybe you've already taken a bit less on some. You know, so it was absolutely trying to, trying to squeeze everything I could out of those. And again, just, just trying to create as many opportunities as possible.

What, as in, in what sense opportunities?

So if there were any new clients I could get on, even if this was going to be like the first placement that I made with them, you know, was I kind of speccing out as much as I could? Was I putting posts up on LinkedIn about these candidates to, to try and encourage clients to maybe come to me? Just almost going back to basics and doing everything within my power to make sure that I was going to get to 15K.

And then what have you done since to make sure that B doesn't become complacent? So because, yeah, you've, you've hit the 15K, you beat, you beat your mate, first person to do this. Yeah, you might think, right, time to put the feet up, you know. You could, you could quite easily lose that work ethic that helped you get there, right? And yeah, oftentimes I speak to recruiters that they found it the hardest to retain the, like, top performer thing, because that's— it's just harder to do that, right? Or that's actually been a lot of really difficult for people to manage once they've actually got to, like, that big goal that they've always had.

Yeah, yeah.

So how, how have you, how have you made sure that Bea hasn't become complacent?

I think I'm probably hungrier than ever.

Really?

Yes, it's, um, it's just such a good feeling to, you know, to be achieving these things that I probably never thought I could. Um, I think my book's sort of 17,200 at the moment, which obviously is great. Um, like a lot of people, I've got loads of finishes coming up at the end of March just because of the type of industry I work in. It's, it's, um, when contracts will run to. So I'm going to take a bit of a hit, but it's, you know, I've got a solid base now to really push on and grow. Um, so yeah, 20K is, is first.

It's now on to the 20K. First, first to hit the 20K.

There was a couple of guys who, um, who had already hit the 15K mark, but nobody's ever done 20K on iOS.

No one's ever done 20?

Yeah, so it's, uh, so what, what's—

let's talk about that then. What's top of mind? Like, again, it's again gonna come down to squeezing the juice out of things.

Of course, yeah.

Like, how, how, how are we gonna get to 20K?

So I'm in a— I'm in an interesting spot right now because my team's bigger than it's ever been, so they are taking priority right now.

Okay.

Um, 20K will come, I have no doubt I'm gonna get there. Um, but I'm also conscious that, you know, I want to see them getting to 5K, 6K, 7K, 8K. And, um, yeah, hopefully my number 2, she'll be, she'll be pushing on for 10K soon herself. So, you know, I've just had the high of hitting that 15K. Um, I'm confident that that book will, will stay steady, and there's, you know, there's stuff there that will grow itself. But for now, um, my focus has to be on them.

Okay, so let, let, like, before we finish then, let's just talk about that. How, how would you describe your, your leadership journey? Always learning, always learning.

Yeah.

What's surprised you about it so far?

I think that, you know, the hardest part of it isn't actually teaching them how to recruit, it's everything that comes with it. You become like a full-time counselor, a full-time counselor. You're really dealing with, you know, whatever's going on outside of work for them. You know, you have to become like their best friend, and it's, it's amazing. I love it, but it's, it's a roller coaster. Because you celebrate every win with them, you have to be the person to keep them up in the times where they've maybe had a dropper or they've had 6 nos or whatever that might be, and you're down yourself, you're disappointed for them, but equally you've got to be the person that's kind of bringing them back up and I guess be that person that I once had. So yeah, I'd say it's just, you just don't know what you're going to have each day that you come into.

And then you mentioned it there, I speak to a lot of people in your position, and yeah, what can be one of the most difficult things is maintaining your performance. Yeah, whilst getting the best out of them. So like, how, how have you sort of gone about that? Like, in terms of, I don't know, what— how have you tried to sort of approach maybe your working week to make sure like B has the time, B the sort of recruiter gets time to sort of do what she needs to does— that she gets to, um, done, and then B's also then there, the person you need to be for your team? Like, how have you approached that?

Yeah, absolutely. So, I think I definitely try and always be there for them. I sit in the middle of them, so I'm accessible to them at all times other than if I'm in a meeting or whatever. I'm lucky that I've got a delivery consultant who pretty much works alongside me. Doesn't fill all my roles. I'll still do some candidate work myself because it's super important. I'm still embedded in that world, but he's helped massively. He's definitely a great support system. Um, and I guess as well, once you get to a point you've got established clients, that needs less work. Um, you've still got to keep the, you know, some BD going on, but certainly less than maybe what I once was. So it does allow me to have a lot more time to, you know, kind of help them with, with phone coaching, or, you know, help with their emails before they're sent out, that kind of thing, and just make sure that everything is being done to, to a high standard.

And then how, how was like the, uh, approach like becoming a better manager? A better leader, would you say?

Yeah, so it's, it's a work in progress. I don't think, you know, you're ever going to be perfect, and it's not an easy job. Um, but I think just, just trying to make more time for them. Um, we do part of a sort of billing manager course I've, you know, recently been on. You get 360 feedback, and that's been super helpful to, to understand like what they want more of from me. It's, um, it's all anonymous, so I don't know who wrote what.

What was like, what was the key insight?

Um, a lot of it was positive, but there was a lot more maybe like holding them accountable to certain things, I think, that they wanted. Yeah, I think maybe I was very accountable, holding myself accountable to targets, but sometimes with them, if they weren't, you know, weren't hitting what they said they were going to hit, maybe I wasn't, you know, pushing as to the why. Um, so yeah, it's definitely been helpful to, to know what they've wanted from me.

360 feedback.

Yeah, it's good.

It's important to get that. If you don't get it, you know.

Yeah.

I think the anonymous is the key bit.

I could probably tell you most of the way.

The thing is though, it's like with stuff like that, I feel like people are always going to spend time thinking, who said that?

Yeah, it was quite clear, I think.

But yeah, so how have you thought about— because I think this would be useful, because I think what you're talking about there, there is a bit of a balancing act of like, you don't want people to feel like, I don't know, you're like making them feel like you're hitting them with a KPI stick that people like to say or whatever. Like, have you thought about how you're going to try and balance that line of like setting standards, holding people accountable, and not making people feel like you're micromanaging them or like they have to do this otherwise? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, of course. I think, you know, part of it's about getting in the trenches with them. Um, you know, we've got a competition we're launching on Monday which is, it is KPI based. Um, but you know, I'm part of that, so I'm going to be, you know, involved. Yeah, by the front. And at the end of the day, if you can show them the reason why these KPIs are, you know, being set, then I think, you know, it's fair enough. Um, you know, the last thing that I would want them to think of me was that, you know, all I cared about is the KPIs. If someone's done less numbers but actually the quality of those KPIs is good, and that's what really matters. Um, but on the flip side, recruitment, you know, is a numbers game, so there's got to be some element of KPIs in there.

Yeah, I just do feel like the— obviously KPIs have sort of— has become almost like a bit of a dirty word, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, but like, it's just— it's so— I don't know how you feel, but like, understanding the science behind being successful is like super important. Like, most top performers that I've sat down with, like, they will know to the, to the detail, like, if they want to bill 400 grand in the year, how many interviews they need to book.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's, it's more about the science to be like— because there is a science behind it, and it's just good to understand, like where you want to try and end up, which should mean you get the outcome that you want.

Exactly. And, you know, we try and look at ratios as well. So it's, you know, there's— it's the reason why that KPI is happening. So it's not just, why haven't you pulled however many jobs? You know, it's, it's, well, we know you need however many jobs to do a deal.

So, you know, that's why—

exactly. So that's why we're looking at that KPI. You know, there's, there's a reason for it.

Awesome. Okay, so as we get to the end here then, what is, um What is Bee excited about going into the rest of 2023? You said that it's been— your market's looking pretty good at the moment. So how are you hoping to— yeah, where are you hoping to be by the end of the year?

Yeah, so I've got two main goals. The first one is to be promoted to business manager, which is a big internal promotion. Essentially means you've got, you know, a successful team and, yeah, deserve that title.

Business manager.

Yeah, I'm very, very hopeful to get that soon. And then the second one has to be 20K.

20K. When do you think you'll hit the 20K?

It's a tough question. It would be funny if I had a crystal ball.

When would you like— when would you like— end of the year you'd want to be— you want to be going into next year like books 20K?

Um, I'm gonna go January. Um, yeah, it's the month that I did 10K, it's the month that I did 15K, so it's got to be a trend.

It's magical.

My books are always healthy around that time.

So yeah, we're gonna have to check back in, see if they hit the 20K. I'm sure We'll see the post on LinkedIn, big 20K balloon picture. Hopefully we'll wait to see it in January. But I guess, look, I guess why don't we just end with, for people listening that, yeah, might be in the trenches right now, might be struggling in contract recruitment, obviously listening to your story might hopefully make them feel like it is possible to come out the other side, build a successful contract book that they've seen others build. Like, what would your advice be for those people that, yeah, hopefully are just like sort of on the way to hopefully getting to sort of where you are? What would your advice be for those people?

Just keep going. Um, yeah, dig deep, find that why, and use it to help you push forward. Um, like, every little win you get is a big win, and, uh, yeah, you'll get there.

Love it. Thanks so much for coming on the pod.

Thanks so much for having me. I loved it.

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it Please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.