Brian Fraser - How to build credibility and relationships in Recruitment

In recruitment, you know, everyone's humans at the end of the day. We're all people, you know.

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by a Scotsman in Brian Fraser.

Our job, in a sense, is to network. You know, we're talking to people all day, we're talking to clients all day, we're talking to candidates all day.

He works for a company called 920 Recruitment and focuses on the marketing and digital space, which he's been building a market around for the last 5 years. My grandma, who was, you know, a keen a gardener, not a recruiter at all.

I would remember, like, in a little floral chair, floral carpet, and she would say, "It'll pass," you know. And I think that is so true in life.

What I love about Brian's journey is just he oozes passion, kind of going straight in and going for the jugular, you know. He developed his mindset, he's huge into building self-awareness, and overall a great guy who's worked extremely hard to build a name for himself in this space and industry that he recruits in. We spoke about community building, we spoke about business development strategies, we've spoken about building your personal brand to drive business opportunities, and so much more. Enjoy the episode. Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me, sir. Excited.

Thanks for joining me. The, um, the number of Scottish recruiters that we've had on this podcast, I'll be honest, I don't know why. There hasn't been loads.

I know. I don't know if anyone will think I'm Scottish with this very strange accent, but you Yeah, bit of variety for you.

No, really looking forward to this. So just to give everyone just some immediate context, uh, career highlights so far, where you are on your recruitment journey, coming up to the 5-year mark, um, in recruitment, stayed in the same organization. You started as a candidate manager in a 180 role in 2018, and since that point you've sort of gone on this journey of, you know, climbing the ranks where you now find yourself heading up the digital marketing division for your organization. There's 3 of you in that team, and it's all perm recruitment, and you're really doing everything that you can to build the reputation in the Scottish market of, you know, um, being great consultative recruiters in the marketing and digital space. So I'm really excited to talk to you today about, you know, business development strategies, how you've opened up doors, how you've built your brand online, um, your journey with leadership, and, and much more. So where we always like to start is the million-pound question.

Yes.

So I'd love to sort of hear your take on this, particularly as you've now, you know, hired and added people to your team.

Yes.

What, what do you believe, Brian, are the common characteristics and traits of successful recruiters in today's market? Let's start there.

Yeah, so like you said, million-dollar question. I think, um, you know, everyone tends to say a lot of similar answers, and I think, um, you know, everyone has said in your podcast, you know, previously, spot on. Resilience, you know, I think that's a word we use daily in recruitment. You know, that's absolutely bang on. And, you know, things like having a purpose as well. You know, I think the more driven you are, the further it will take you. But definitely, I would kind of say areas that I found that I've had the most growth in, and team members have, is probably having self-awareness. And I think that's something that can really kind of be built, and you can almost kind of train into yourself as well. And I guess what I mean about self-awareness, if I think back to when I entered the world of recruitment. I was a bit of a firecracker, a bit of a loose cannon, I think. And it's almost kind of beginning to, you know, think about that kind of growth mindset and thinking about, you know, what are you saying, what are you doing, what's going on in here, what's going on out there as well. And I think that really takes you far in recruitment. Recruitment is definitely a career where you climb the ranks so, so quickly, and I think with that you need to almost kind of accelerate your own growth as well. So I think definitely just kind of having that self-awareness and knowing the impact of what you do what you say, what you feel, and knowing how to almost analyze that, I think, can go a really far way. And it kind of falls into the whole kind of growth mindset piece as well, which I think a lot of us recruiters are, you know, quite into and really feed upon.

No, I love the self-awareness piece. Curious then, what were some of the habits that you started to incorporate in, you know, your daily life weeks that helped you build that self-awareness, do you think?

Yeah, so I think it's definitely sometimes just stopping and thinking maybe before you talk or before you do, you know, recruitment is such an emotional career to be in and it can be so volatile. Things can drop, you're dealing with humans essentially. That's a product we've been dealt with. So I think just being able to stop for 2 seconds and think before you act goes really, really far. But also, there's a few things that I, again, I've heard kind of other guests in your podcast talk about, is doing things like journaling as well, you know, actually reflecting on your day. So the end of each day, I take just like a minute, maybe I reflect on what I've done— been to the gym, great— but also what's gone great in work. Because again, it's quick for us to focus on the negatives and what went wrong, but what went right, you know. So definitely just probably that self-reflection piece, sitting down every night, is really important but also just stopping and kind of recouping and thinking of what's going on in there. So important.

Yeah, no, yeah, I think I really like that. For me, uh, yeah, definitely a big fan of, uh, journaling, and I really sort of intentionally make space for myself to think. I think sometimes, uh, you know, we're either on our phones texting, listen to podcasts, listen to music, these things. Oftentimes we can find ourselves, you know, always having external inputs. So habit that I've been— definitely don't do it every single day, but I'd say over the last 6 months, more often than not, I won't go on my phone for the, like, the first hour or so. And that's been really helpful, you know, to, uh, just have time to think.

Yeah, I think with the content out there, you're totally right. There's so many things that we're fed nowadays. And even on LinkedIn, you know, you, you have these kind of entrepreneurs and 5 AM club and things like that. And that's as much as we'd all love to be like that, we're not all built that way. And humans are so complex and social media imposter syndrome. So I think definitely switching off, reflecting, so, so important.

So let's get into this then. Where I wanted to start is the way that you described the Scottish market to me was it was like a fishbowl.

Yes. Yes.

Right. And obviously what I was taking from that is that it's a small market. Yeah, right. There's, there's plenty of amazing people in that part of the world, plenty of amazing thriving businesses. However, so what you was alluding to me was, you know, you're always one person away. Uh, you always speak to someone that's one person away from knowing who Brian is, or, you know, someone— if you had a— if you delivered a bad experience for someone, that could very easily spread to, uh, the people, uh, that you're looking to, you know, support and build a network and build a community with.

Of course.

So I wanted to start with, with that in mind, with how you described the, the market, what, what have you firstly done to differentiate yourself? Because that means it's even more competitive.

Yeah.

So let's start there. Like, over this journey, over the last sort of nearly 5 years, what have you done, you feel, to, you know, really stand out amongst your peers and your competitors, bearing in mind that it's a super localized competitive market?

Absolutely. So completely what you, you kind of, what you said there, you know, it is, it is a fishbowl and it's so, so small within Scotland compared to, say, in England and other markets like the US. And kind of word spreads quickly, like you said, if you get a good experience. And as I've kind of worked through the years, you know, very quickly you hear if a recruiter's delivered a bad service. And typically, I would say, where I've kind of heard bad feedback has perhaps been recruiters not understanding their market, or understanding technical requirements, and just knowing digital marketing creative within Scotland. So one thing I would say over the years is definitely just becoming a master of this market, you know, knowing it inside out. So, you know, if you're recruiting for a paid social media manager, it's very different from an organic social media manager. Knowing the differences, knowing the platforms, and going as far to even playing with those platforms and really understanding them. So I would say really understanding the market inside out, getting to know the businesses within the market. And, you know, we talk about market mapping— that should just be something, you know, you have on your computer, you've built out through the years, just really understanding things very, very deeply. And again, understanding and knowing your stuff then bleeds out to your clients and candidates. You know, when I talk to candidates, it's more like I'm speaking to friends, I would say. You know, we can talk about marketing, we can talk about, you know, Google Analytics 4, which is a kind of new update, talk about that, talk about AI and marketing, that type of thing. And again, with clients, they understand that I understand marketing. So why I would say it's probably differentiated myself is just really understanding the market. And I would say I sometimes almost feel like I work in marketing than recruiting in marketing, if that makes sense. So, you know, it's not that I'm just a recruiter, but I feel like I truly am a marketing recruiter, you know, like almost the marketing comes before. So I would just say knowing your stuff, building your credibility goes so, so far because I think people can just see through— I don't know if I can swear, but people can see through BS straight away if you, if you're just trying to be a salesy guy, you know. Um, So yeah, bit of a waffle there, but just know your stuff, really immerse yourself in it all.

So let's just talk about this for a second. So what you're saying there, it sounds like, is like you're not trying to be as competent as a paid social media specialist. However, what you've committed to over the years, which you feel like has given you a competitive advantage, is being really committed to being curious about what it is that the people you work with do. If that's playing around with the platforms, if that's learning in your own time, if it's asking great questions, and then you're sort of, uh, I guess showcasing that and talking about your curiosity and your passion for the industry, uh, rather than, yeah, just speaking to people about their jobs, their salary, uh, what they're looking, their next move. That's what it sounds like, because I don't want people to feel like, uh, you have to become as good as the people you're placing, because I don't actually believe that to be true. But it sounds like what you're saying is that you've been really committed to being curious around your market and taking a real genuine interest.

Absolutely. And I think that there are so many different successful recruiters out there, and I think it's such a large market and there's enough pie for everyone. I think so many people can have different approaches and have different techniques in the way that they do recruitment. I would say that's kind of what's worked with myself and the way I approach recruitment. I definitely just be myself, be authentic. And I'm generally interested in the market that I recruit in, so I think that just kind of really bleeds out to the people that I talk with. So for me, that's definitely something that works because it shows that I'm credible and I know what I'm talking about as well. But as you said, all those other things are really important as well. You know, you can recruit, you know, from a job spec, or you really kind of understand those deep questions, you know, what is someone looking for, what what gets them out of the bed in the morning, you know, those types of things. But I would say that's just definitely what's worked for myself is just really becoming part of the market. And I know later on we'll kind of discuss the event that, you know, I've been hosting and the fact I'm trying to build a community as well. And I think over the years it means that kind of Brian's became a go-to marketing recruiter just because people tend to know me and the market is small.

So you said earlier you used to be a bit of a loose cannon.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

What did that— what does that look like in the early days of Ryan?

Oh God.

Oh God.

Yeah, I would say— oh God, I think I remember probably getting highly emotional. Deals fell through. I remember this one time, I think— can't remember exactly what happened. Just a deal fell through. Something went pizong. It went pretty bad. And I remember going in a boardroom and I think I was close to crying. I'm like, I don't think I would cry ever, you know. And I think, I think that's a really good thing about recruitment. It really— we use that word resilience all the time, but I think it's a career where you grow so much. Like, you go— if you do it the right way and you really work hard, I think the growth acceleration is insane, you know. And just back then, I would just say I would go into calls with just clients, and now when I, when I look back, I'm like, oh my God, like, how was I coming across? Or with candidates, just Just again, it was that piece of not thinking before I was speaking. And that's something I'm still developing every day. I still feel like I do that, you know. But I definitely would say I look back nearly 5 years ago and I feel like I was like a wee 18-year-old boy that was just coming into the group, kind of, you know, like hoping for the best type thing, you know.

So, okay, so I think a lot of people can relate to, you know, crying, deals dropping out, all that.

Yeah.

So look, let's just cast back to that moment for a sec. I know, I don't, you know, it could be quite hard to go back there, but you know, with hindsight, there'll be people listening to this that are in that moment right now.

Absolutely.

Like, you know, what is it that you think you'd say to Brian if he was in that boardroom? Yeah. He's extremely emotional, you just had some rejection, you'd, you know, you've had to, now you're gonna have to call a client and say, I'm really sorry, they're not accepting your job offer. Or whatever it is, like what do you think you'd say to Brian that would help him hopefully in that moment just understand or like get through it basically? What is it that you think you try and get through to Brian in that moment that would help him come out the other side?

Sure, definitely. I kind of went down this kind of journey of reading, you know, self-improvement books and law of attraction, so definitely all of that stuff helps. However, going way back in the Fraser family, there was actually a phrase my grandma said to me, which, you know, um, my grandma who was, you know, a keen gardener, not a recruiter at all, And she used to always say, I would remember, like, in a little floral chair, floral carpet, and she would say, 'It'll pass,' you know. And I think that is so true in life, you know. I don't know, in life you, you get so anxious about things, you know, you experience things like imposter syndrome, you know. It's, it's really, really tough. And recruitment is one of those careers, you know, it's, it's why we talk about it, you know, in the way that we are. It's such a, such a tough career. And it's just remembering it will pass, like absolutely able to pass. If it's one deal, that's a drop in the ocean. If you're looking at your, at your week, it's one thing that happened in your week. If you're looking at your month, your quarter, your year, it is a drop in the ocean. And it's more about how you rebound from it, you know. If you're, if you really get down in the dumps, which absolutely I did, you know, I cried, I probably pretended I was working on my computer the rest of the afternoon, was actually seething underneath, you know. I was, I was livid, um, and got no work done. And probably that impacted my whole week. Whereas now it's a case of, you know what, Come on, like, we're, we're gonna get them better candidates, we're gonna give a better service, you know. Just, just remember, as my grandma said, it'll pass. Because it will.

Great advice, I really like that. And then just on this, just talking about very quickly, just focusing on for those listening that might be quite early on in their careers, what is it that you think, uh, people listening can, uh, really focus on becoming world-class at, or really committing to becoming great at in those early months that you think could avoid— that could avoid them being in that boardroom going, I've got a fucking dropout, I fucking hate this job, I want to quit? Is there anything specific looking back that you think, you know what, um, if I really just got better at focusing on that part of the recruitment process, or made sure I asked those sorts of questions, whatever it may be, it could have given me a better chance to having less of those experiences? Obviously we can grow from, we can learn from.

Yeah.

Talk to me a bit about that. What comes to mind?

Yes, I would say, you know, that kind of word people use a lot in recruitment is probably— there's so many nuances to the role, you know, there's so many things that you can always improve on. And I think it is probably that mindset of always trying to improve and always trying to be better. But one thing I would say is just really nailing down processes, you know, and, you know, be really— again, I say this and this is personal experience, and I do know there's some amazing recruiters out there who maybe aren't the most organized, you know. And again, everyone's got a different technique. So I definitely would say really, you know, nail down processes, because if you, if you have everything nailed down and you know what, you know, what is what, then you're almost trying to kind of make a process bulletproof. And one thing I probably would say as well is, again, that, that's myself saying to be incredibly organized and find processes to work, that type of thing, but that may not work for the next person. But one thing I kind of wish I had done earlier was probably just be more authentic and kind of be myself. Like, I think when I entered the world of recruitment, kind of had to think I had to kind of be the guy going in the boardroom in a shirt, you know, say the corporate lingo, that, that type of thing. And that probably didn't get me as far as when I finally realized, you know what, I'm just going to be myself and I'm just going to be Brian. And I think when you're being yourself, you're being authentic, and you're comfortable in yourself, I just feel like you excel much further. And I think in that kind of early days, it was a case of I was having imposter syndrome and I was trying to impress the next person, that type of thing, and worrying about others, worrying about my manager thought with a deal falling through. So I would definitely just say definitely try and nail down processes, you know, do, do all of that stuff if that works for you. But just definitely be yourself, you know, just try and become that best version of yourself, really.

And then, and just quickly, just to focus on, on the how here, so when you say nail that process, what do you mean? Do you think if people listening were to really double down on, I don't know, the candidate qualification, or I don't know what, what comes to mind in terms of what thing can everyone— because there's a, there's a lot going on, there's a lot to learn.

Yeah.

But if you were to think about that process, and I know not everyone may have a processes, but let's be honest, you should— if you listen to this, you should have some sort of process that you're following. Uh, what do you think people should really become laser focused on that hopefully, you know, will— they'll thank themselves for later on in the process, you think? What do you think they should really know?

I think, I think it is just like you said, it's, it's every single process, every single call that you have, you know, you're caught— you're constantly thinking. You're thinking pre-call, you know, pre-qualification. You're thinking pre, pre-closing the person way, way before. You're asking what process is there and what do they, what do they need to be jumping and, you know, jumping up and down accepting an offer from you in future? What is going on? And so it literally is every single call, knowing every single bit of information. When it comes to my guys, you know, that, that's kind of something they've already learned in their journey, where maybe they've gone into a process and forgot to ask one question, and that can make a deal fall through. And, you know, it's a case of you'll learn that for next time, you know, um, or you, you try and grow. So it would just be every piece of the process, just trying to be as precise as you possibly can. You know, you should, you should document every— if you're a person who can remember great, you be a person who has to write everything down. So write every single piece of information down because something may trip you up later on. But also, one thing as well is definitely don't put your eggs all in one basket. I would say that is like a massive thing in recruitment. Like, I think all the time, like, yes, we've got the golden candidate, that's great. But again, do we have them? You know, what's, what's going on in their head? We're not mind readers. So definitely don't put all your eggs in one basket. Always think of every case scenario, you know, have a plan A, B, C if you need to.

Awesome. So let's sort of fast forward this a bit. I want to talk, uh, about, uh, Brian going on this journey of, you know, becoming a successful 360 recruiter. A lot of people listen to this podcast, a lot of people that are in our industry right now, uh, are definitely in the trenches of becoming a successful 360 recruiter, are expected by their employers to bring on more of their own clients, and that oftentimes can be a really difficult and challenging period for a lot of recruiters. So let's just sort of, you know, hone in, uh, for a second on that period where you really had to start building credibility and traction in winning your own clients, um, and managing the entire process. Uh, why don't we just start with, you know, what, what were some of the early challenges when, you know, the expectation was then put on you on, uh, bringing more of your own clients? You no longer, uh, can just sort of rely on the house accounts, the long-standing client relationships. Brian, we want you to be bringing in at least 2 new clients per month, whatever those expectations are. What were some of the early challenges when you found yourself on that journey, do you think?

Yeah, I think definitely it's very daunting if you have came from that 180 background. And obviously, as we all know, just now the market is changing more towards 360. It's just really scary. I think you're always just thinking rejection. If you're picking up a phone or doing an email or a LinkedIn message, whatever method you're using, you're always probably scared of the what if. You're always thinking worst case scenario. The thing that I would probably say when I began going into it is probably that hesitation and overthinking it. It probably is just kind of going straight in and going for the jugular, you know. Um, so don't hesitate, don't, don't second think and think, oh, what if they say no? The thing is, if you, if you reach out to, you know, 20 prospects and 2 of them go warm, look at the business that you can generate from that. So I would just really say just dive in, dive in head first. But also just kind of be strategic in the way that you're doing it. You know, again, going back to what you said about, you know, processes and such like, again, document everything. If you have market maps, you know, if you, you have a candidate in that area— so for example, I work in e-commerce. If I work with one e-commerce business, let's say, and I'm successful recruiting for them and I'm talking to candidates, I'm asking them where are they interviewing, and then looking at the live vacancies, building a market map, building up a plan, going to those clients and saying, this is what I've done, this is the successes that I've done, you know, put my marketing material their way. So I would say that's a bit of a roundabout question, but I would say my, my hesitation, my hesitation was just hesitation, was just second. Yeah, that kind of little voice in your head, try and over— try and overcome that. Easier said than done, but it is just a case of the more that you do something, the more that you become comfortable with it. And it's just, just human nature, isn't it?

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Yeah, so I'd say definitely going back to when we described the Scottish market, it's definitely a fishbowl where if you know, you know, if you know one person, they will know someone here, etc., etc. And, you know, you find everyone knows each other. So I would say really, really latch on to your network. And that's, you know, hey, that's what we do as recruiters. You know, we are— our job in a sense is to network. You know, we're talking to people all day, we're talking to clients all day, we're talking to candidates all day. And really, really latch on to that and look at your network and look at who, who you know. So it's, it's doing things, you know, like, like going, going to events, you know, or like you said, if you know a candidate and you've placed them, you know, what's the company that they've came from, you know, what colleagues do they have. If you are working with a leader in the business, you know, if you're taking them out for a drink or you're, you're meeting them from, you know, meeting them up for a meeting, um, you're going to be saying, you know, who, who do you know, and just talk, talk about the market. But definitely in Scotland, it's, it's so, so small. If someone tends to know someone somewhere, you know, through it, there's always a kind of two degrees of separation type thing. So kind of what I utilized probably was, um, that every kind of BD opportunity I saw, they could almost always be a kind of warm lead. And that, that's probably kind of what, what I would say is the, is the best way to maybe initially approach BD is try and look for those warm leads first rather than just going on, going in cold and just jumping on the phone. Look at, look at who do you know in your network, you know, what, how, how can you really utilize that network. And as a recruiter, you should, you should be going to events, you should be talking to people. And with that, if you're doing that over a period of time, if you're just hitting the phone and talking to people, think of it like a spider web is just going to keep growing. And how can you really, really capitalize on that network?

What do you define as warm then when you mention that?

So for example, I would say, and I'll use e-commerce as an example again, it's kind of, I guess you could kind of see like a subcategory of digital within Scotland, and you could probably say there are under 40 kind of e-commerce managers within Scotland. They go to a lot of meetups together and they all tend to know each other. So I work with this one guy and I know him really well. And he'll very often talk about an e-commerce manager at this business and I'll say, hey, how are you doing? Do you mind doing a little introduction for me? So, you know, it's just does this person know that person? Are there meetups happening? Do they have— they previously worked together? Again, if you're market mapping, did this person work with that person there? Again, as a recruiter, we become serial stalkers, don't we? And again, that's a kind of number one piece of advice I would say as well, is always do your research when you are going to BD, you're talking to new clients, whether you are going in warm, like I said, or cold, really do your research and know where they came from. Know what they've done, but always kind of build out, build out your kind of market map of who you're going after, who's been there and here and everywhere.

And, uh, curious, what have you found to be the most effective way to get introductions?

Um, I probably, probably recently at the event I'm running, which again I know we'll be talking about, um, I'm finding it's a really good BD tool because I, you know, I can go to people and there's, there's not a great deal of like kind of like marketing meetups and events in Scotland, and that was something I identified. So I can approach people, and there's a few clients I've already won via doing that and saying, do you want to be part of our future event? Do you want to attend? And you're going in there with another agenda, but again, thinking of the long-term game, you know. There was a client we spoke with, you know, 6 months ago, and they've just came to me saying, we actually are going to kick off recruitment now, you know. So always think that kind of long-term game, you know. Talk to people, do introductions, let them know your value, your worth, what you can bring to the business. But don't think you need to make money off them there and then. Just think of building the connection and almost kind of building that business friendship.

So why don't we— because we can obviously mention the, uh, events a couple of times there— why don't we— I think a good way to talk about this would be let's talk about obviously right now, like in the most current period. I think what would be really helpful for people is talking, uh, getting your perspective on We're talking about business development here, so I think it'd be really good just to hear your take on— let's just say you mentioned a spider diagram there. If we were to think about Brian, uh, Brian's business development, uh, strategy, Brian's business development approach, and we'd think of a pie chart. Yeah, like let's break down this pie chart, you know, what, what makes up this pie chart in terms of you being successful at BD and building relationships and getting in front of people that, you know, you might be able to work with now or in the long term? What, how would you build up, how, what does it, what makes up this pie chart, you know? So you've mentioned the events, we've spoken about leveraging your network that you build connections with and getting referrals.

Yeah.

How else, you know, what else is made up in this, in this, uh, overall BD strategy?

Yeah, definitely. So yeah, like you said, it'd probably be hard to kind of break the percentages down exactly, but I would just kind of say with, with the event, you know, kind of, you know, leveraging that and seeing who's attending our event, who's who's interested, who can we reach out to to participate in future. So that in itself is a whole kind of BD tool. And then just trying to get introductions from my network is another big thing as well. We've, we've generated a lot of just even inbound business via that, which is fantastic. Inbound business, kind of, you know, the more the better. But definitely I would say in, in my market, you know, I tend to be kind of going after maybe like head of marketing, that type of thing, and they're wouldn't be like if you're recruiting in sales. They're not just people sitting by their phone, you know, but they definitely are— that it's the type of market where they are on LinkedIn a lot, you know, they're very active on there, you know. So it definitely is about, you know, I would say that would be my kind of number one tool would be LinkedIn, definitely. And recruiters come in all shapes and sizes, you know, and some people like kind of hitting the phone and picking that up and doing it that way. I definitely would say I always try and kind of almost edge the door open a little bit and then kind of start going in a bit more heavy, I would say. So I would say that would be my kind of biggest tool. But again, if I'm approaching a business on LinkedIn and they're recruiting for a couple of roles, it's thinking, do I know someone in that business, or does that person know someone there? Again, it's trying to just show some kind of relevance. Or if it's a business that is a $25 mil e-commerce turnover, and going through and saying, I helped build a team in a business that's similar size from scratch, you know, um, So I would definitely say LinkedIn will probably be my biggest tool, using the power of my network. And again, people I recruited 5 years ago are now in management roles now as well. So that definitely leveraging that, thinking that long-term kind of goal as well, look at looking at your network from years back and thinking, as that person became a hiring manager, can they get me into HR? And then using the event as well. So it comes through lots of different channels. And I guess, I guess when it comes to BD, it's It's definitely thinking of as many different ways you can bring business on. It's not just picking up the phone or just LinkedIn messages. What else can you do? But can you also attend events as well? So it's great events are back on now as well. Amazing, great to be getting out there and seeing people as well. And again, just meeting people in person as well, having conversations. Yeah, I think it's thinking of lots of different avenues and bringing them all together.

No, I think that's great for people to recognize that there isn't just one single way If you are just very reliant on one method, one approach, then you're vulnerable, right? Because as soon as that stops working, what else have you got in your arsenal? And I think what I want everyone listening to take away here, which I think is really important— we've spoken a lot about mindset. You like the way that you're talking about things, is you view everyone that you connect, build relationships with, almost under the same category. We could call them customers, we could call them people, whatever. But I think where sometimes people really struggle when they're on this 360 journey is it's like, right, 9 to 1 PM I've got my candidate hat on and I'm just speaking to candidates.

Yeah.

And I'm qualifying and I'm finding out, are they happy? Do they not like their manager? What salaries they're looking for? I'm pitching jobs. And then, okay, 2 till 5 PM, Brian, I'm gonna be doing my business development. I'm then maybe even calling the same people, but you know, I've got my advisors on and going, hey, do you have these challenges at the moment? I've got this candidate, you want to speak to them? And I think everything that you just discussed, that you haven't— you never once sort of, you know, compartmentalized candidates and clients. And I think that's something that people really should consider, is the best recruiters are speaking to people and are open-minded to, hey, let's build a relationship with this person, let's connect with them, and let's gather information which maybe I could use now in the short term on the candidate side of things, maybe I could use on the client side of things. But really making sure that you put everyone under the same banner and you don't find yourselves putting on, you know, your candidate advisors on and your, your client advisors on. So I really appreciate you, uh, sharing that. Let's talk about specifically the event then. Like, you've mentioned around LinkedIn utilizing that. I can definitely tell, you know, looking at your LinkedIn, you're consistently sharing content. I think you, um, you're, you know, you're, you're building your, your brand. I think if someone was to land on your profile, they'd probably have a better chance of understanding, you know, if I speak to Brian or I work with Brian, what that might feel like. I think you've done a really good job of that. Obviously, the events have been a more recent thing, it'd be really interesting. Why don't you, uh, I think people want to know, and I know you're early on in this journey, so you can sort of be honest with us. How have you, how have you, you know, used this channel and vehicle to help on specifically, you know, speak to companies and speak to organizations on the— just to sort of put it in this section at the moment, the BD side. Because I literally had a phone call today from a founder who, again, a bit like you really committed to building community, wants to give value, um, and they're consistently doing that, but sometimes struggles when to know, you know, to flip the conversation, or at least say, hey Brian, look, you know these marketing meetups we do? Look, that's important to us, we want to build a community, but by the way, we can help you find amazing marketing managers. You know, like, how have you found so far navigating the— look, we're not an events company, we're a recruitment company, let's have that conversation, you know, because that, that's part of the game. So how have you found you know, introducing that? How have you approached it so far?

Yeah, I would think definitely, um, so kind of going back to what I was saying, you know, about treating everyone the same, you know, in recruitment, you know, everyone's humans at the end of the day, we're all people, you know. So it's kind of throwing that away and not being intimidated by people. But one thing that I would say is, um, when I deal with clients, I'm totally myself, you know. I've definitely approached everything with a sense of humor, you know. Maybe I've not got the best humor, you know, but when I'm chatting to people, they You know, I can tend to just be open with clients and candidates if I'm being totally honest. So, you know, definitely when I— so what we're trying to do just now, we're away to go into our second, um, event, so our second meetup now, and we've sold well over 100 tickets. So fantastic, that is all great. But what we're looking to do now is we're building our slate for probably our next 3 events. So just now I'm speaking to several businesses, agencies, and businesses with large marketing departments, and I'm speaking to the to the head of marketing, and we're still in early days, you know, so we are still in early days where we're confirming how they're going to fit into the slots and the topics and what they're going to talk about. But when I'm chatting with them, I probably just am real and honest, to be honest, and they, they know that I'm a recruiter. And when I'm saying my kind of my— what my proposition is and what I'm about, I'm not a marketeer, I am a recruiter, but I really care about the industry and I really care about the sector, and I'm trying to build a community because I've seen a gap there in the Scottish market and there's a really lack there's a lack of community, there's a lack of togetherness. So when I'm speaking— a bit of a long-winded answer, sorry— but I'm thinking, probably just pretty honest. I'm like, I'm a recruiter and this is what I do. As you said, I've got a lot of it on my LinkedIn there. I've got, you know, nice kind of sexy pitch decks and wee PDFs I can send to them, just kind of saying this, this is what I do and I'm really good at it and I'm really passionate about it. And I'll tend to know their business and know what they do. So again, I would just say I'm pretty upfront and I'm not trying to kind of beat about the bushes and but I'm also trying not to jump on them. I would say that's, that's the way I approach things. I would just say talk to people like they're people rather than their sales targets, you know?

Yeah. So, so basically what you're saying is in all these interactions, so you speaking to these people, um, the first thing is obviously you're enabling, uh, yourself to speak to these people about your event, which maybe you might not be able to speak to these people if you're trying to spec in a candidate. Have a networking call, whatever, right? So that's the first thing. But I guess what it sounds like is, you know, every time you're having these calls and interactions, you're educating them on who you are, what you do, what you're about. So it means that obviously you're speaking about the event, but at the end of each interaction, they get off that call and understand, okay, well, Brian does that, and I know that he does that, as well as trying to, you know, build a community for marketers in the Scotland market.

Exactly. And it's a case of, you know, there people ask you how your day is and, you know, you're doing good things, you're doing good recruitment. And it's that case of, you know, never brag, but, you know, definitely be sure of yourself and know your worth and know that if you're good at what you do, you're good at what you do, you know, and communicate that. But, you know, not kind of bragging and boasting. But, you know, definitely it's— yeah, it is that piece I would just say of kind of being authentic and just kind of be being real with them. But again, it's going back to that piece I said about kind of long-term game as well, you know. So it might be that maybe they are a PSL business and there's so many hurdles to get through to win them as business, you know. I'm not going to win them in 2, 3, 4 months, you know. It might not be until the next financial year, you know. So it's not always going to everything with an agenda as well. Again, it's that kind of piece of treating people like people and not just thinking of kind of of, you know, pound dollar signs above their head. You know, I, I think if— I think in business, if you're a good person and you're authentic in yourself, I do think that can get you pretty far. Um, I, I think especially with recruiters, it's, it's an industry where there can be, you know, it can be tarnished with a bad brush sometimes, which is why, you know, you're kind of doing what you're doing. And I think if you're just yourself and you're a good person, I think that's such a good way to win business as well, if you know your stuff. And you're a good person, people recognize that as well, you know. And that's what I would say a lot of my network know, a lot of the clients I work with, clients I worked with back in 2018, still working with today. And they just kind of know me, I'm the, the chatty guy that speaks a lot of rubbish, but we get on really well. We've got a good friendship, we can have a laugh, you know, we can talk about weekends, you know. Just be yourself, be a, be a good person. Don't just always think sales, you know, but also think commercial. Obviously there's business to run, you know.

Yeah, of course. And then let— just to get, um, practical on this for a second as well. Like, give us some examples how— on how you've used this event, or the event that you're now hosting, to, you know, open up doors with people that you haven't been able to speak to before. Are we, you know, how— how— what does that actually look like and what does it actually sound like? Are you, you know, reaching out to Brian and say, hey Brian, look, may have noticed that we've recently launched a marketing event. Reason for that is this, uh, would you be against connecting on 'You know, finding out a bit more, thought it could be useful for your team.' Like, what does this actually look like, you know, in practice?

Yeah, exactly. So just exactly like you said, just reaching out to people, you know, whether that's, you know, an email, a call, or a LinkedIn, and just reaching out to people. And typically what I would say when we're doing each event is, um, in Scotland, every marketer regardless of the level is aware that there are a lack of events, you know, um, in Scotland in the tech community. For example, you have these really cool monthly meetups that happen, you know, they talk tech, they have pizza, that's everything it's not really been a thing in marketing. So already when I approach people, it's, it's almost just extending a hand and kind of extending an invite and saying it'd be really awesome to have you the next event. You know, we're trying to bring together lots of like-minded individuals and bring together, you know, the best talent in Scotland, you know, into a room, you know. So it's almost kind of extending a hand and kind of giving them something, kind of scratching their back, because chances are if they're really into their sector and they're passionate, they'll identify there is a lack of this networking, a lack of these events. And typically people will come back and they, they will say it, um, you know, really, really admire what you're doing. It's great to see someone's really taking the lead, taking the charge, trying to build something. So it's really just reaching out with that kind of warm hand really, and kind of saying it'd be great to have you along. And, um, there's been several clients I've done that with. They came to the event, or they're coming to future events, or are going to speak at future events, and we're, we're having coffees and we're talking about business and talk about what I do. Again, I'm not selling what I do, but I'm just telling them what I do and I am credible and I'm— I am good at what I do, you know. And again, that's kind of— it's that kind of thing. And again, why, you know, personal brand on LinkedIn, it's something I definitely know I can be better with. You know, you're all saying, 'Wiz,' you know, when it comes to that. But, you know, it's that whole thing of them being the first person that they think of when they think recruitment.

And what have been some of your, uh, biggest wins so far?

Yeah, so as in kind of client-wise for the event?

Just, I don't know, any— what would you say is like, you know, let's talk, you know, let's talk commercials. People may think events have already been done. You've obviously recognized an opportunity, which I think is awesome. You've taken action. I'm sure there's people, you know, sitting in your market going, oh, I've had that idea. But, you know, you've taken action. So give us, you know, give us a bit of a snapshot of one of the wins that you've had. Maybe you met a candidate that you ended up placing, or, you know, recruiter's gonna know, right? Is this, you know, is this impacting the, the targets that we're trying to hit, you know?

Yeah, 100%. So we, we had one client that we're gonna get involved in a future, um, event, um, a kind of social media orientated, um, agency. And, um, we reached out to them about speaking at a future event, met up for a coffee. Lovely guy, he's building a business up and he's a way to go through a lot of growth, working with some really cool brands like Skyscanner. And, um, I want him as a client just because he was pretty transparent. It was just like, I've spoken to a lot of recruiters and I've just had terms and documentation thrown at me, whereas we've met up, we've chatted about the market, bashed your brains together, and you know, with the same vibe, I can tell you really care, you know your stuff. So won that. Just now I'm in conversations with a massive media agency. They're up and down the UK, several offices. So again, that could be something really major in there, and they've managed to organically grow their team within Scotland, but they're a way again to kind of go through that hypergrowth phase and really, really scale at some rate, which they just wouldn't be able to do organically in future. So again, um, the MD of that business is going to speak at a future event, and, um, we'll be looking to hopefully partner with them in future as well. And it was also another e-commerce business where kind of reached out about them attending our event. They are in a very obscure location, so that wasn't right for them, and they weren't able to attend. But open up a conversation. And again, we met for a coffee, had a good chinwag, and I've got a ton of interviews booked in with them this week, you know. So it's, it's, it's just about chatting, you know, just, just having conversations with people. It's, it's almost— I always say it's trying to kind of creak that door open a little bit, you know, just slightly get it open and just go in and be yourself.

You mentioned their, uh, terms. Obviously we're really focused on this BD topic here, but I know this is what people need help with, Brian. I'm sure, you know, if I know the two people in your team are hopefully going on that journey at some point on the 360 side, right? How have you approached negotiating fees with clients? Because I think that's also something that can be daunting at the beginning, you know? Yeah, the first— I always remember my, you know, first sort of pitch around these are my terms, this is why I'm selling harder, so like why it's 20% and these things. Like, you know, like, why don't we— why don't we— let me ask it this way. Yeah, what did, uh, what did it sound like or look like when Brian was pitching terms and fees and percentages, um, in the past when maybe, you know, there's room for improvement? And then we can talk about how sort of it looks like now and how you've improved it. Like, what did it sound like that you think, you know what, wasn't that great, but you know, I was starting out, I was learning? What did it used to sound like when you was negotiating fees and objection handling? How do you approach pitching your service and your fees?

Yeah, 100%. So way back when it was baby Brian who was, you know, having a cry, a cry here and there, and it definitely was trying to probably go in too early with that, you know. And always, it probably was thinking I would kind of go to clients like, oh, terms are usually around this level, you know. You're, you're— I think as a recruiter you sometimes kind of undervalue yourself sometimes, and you kind of say, you know, terms are normally around this. And you know, if your terms are whatever percentage, you'll go in with that percentage, which is just like like, you know, the opposite of good negotiation. And you just kind of go in and— I don't know if this is a bit of a crude phrase, but you kind of drop your pants, don't you? Because you're just— you're, you're earlier in your journey, you're trying to impress, do the right thing. As you get further on and you kind of, you know yourself more, you know your market more, and you know you're, you're good at what you do, I probably go in with the terms at the very, very end, to be honest. You know, it probably is one of the very last questions that they ask and before I'm even hitting them with that, those terms, that percentage, you know, whatever it may be, and they, they know what, you know, they know what I can do, what businesses I worked with, you know. Again, it's about building that online brand. On my LinkedIn, I think I've got like nearly 60 recommendations, all relevant to the market I work in, things like that. And I've got really nice kind of pitch decks, I've had my marketing guys create that type of thing. So they already know what I can do, and they probably know from the conversations or you know, like I said, I always try and meet my clients for a coffee. They probably know that I can achieve and I can add value. Again, it's that if you're talking with a client, you're, you're listening to them and you're identifying their problems, and then you're adapting your, your pitch to basically say you can fix those problems. And then when you've got them hook, line, and sinker, then go in with the terms. And again, be cheeky, put a couple of percentage up as to what normally your organization does, that thing, you know. And, you know, and if you maybe have to drop it a wee bit, you can, but it's not going to be below where it should be, you know. So, so definitely, um, sell your worth, sell your value, and think terms at the very end, because I think it's something you get scared with. You think of terms and signing a contract and stuff, and really it's a tiny piece of the whole process. It's, you know.

All right, I've got some questions on this. Yeah, because I think this would be really helpful for people. So yeah, just quickly, first one, I want to speak about this pitch deck because I think this is something I've been speaking to quite a few recruiters about. It's something that I've implemented in my own sales process and it's been a real game changer. But the first thing I just wanted to ask you, because I'm sure you might run into this maybe with your team when you all talk to them about, you know, doing BD, terms, all that, is they might go, Brian, how can I speak to them about fees and terms at the end when it's the first thing they ask me? What's your response to that? You know, because, you know, you've got your process, you want to showcase your credibility, you're like, no, no, yeah, yeah, let me let me show you my value, let me show you what I'm about. And they're like, Brian, totally, look, we can only get this signed off, we can only do 18%, so what, what, what are your percentages? Like, how does this work? How, how have you, how have you navigated that? Because that's tough, right?

Yeah, no, absolutely. And probably I always kind of try and think, I always kind of try and pitch before I've even had that first call. So you've obviously got your actual proposal document. We've tried to kind of make ours a little bit sexier, and we've got an awesome graphic designer who's done a great job on that. So we have that which goes after we've had the initial conversation. But I even just have a kind of wee document that has all my testimonials, and even I link people to my LinkedIn and say, you know, there's all those recommendations there. So chances are they've already kind of done a wee stalk of me and they kind of know what I'm capable with. So I'm always trying to kind of think push credibility, proof that we can do the job before we're even having that conversation. But if the clients ask about it, just go in and just, just be sure, just be sure of yourself, trying, you know, if that voice is in your head and you're trying to kind of go in and drop your pants, just try and say nah, just say no to that voice and just go in and just be like, this is our terms, this is what we do, but this is the value that we can add. And then if they obviously talk about, you know, negotiating terms, you know, we can say that's something we can discuss, you know, later, we can discuss it later, but let's have the conversation first before we do that, before we put a signature on the dotted line. So I would always say, I try and maybe skirt around it a little bit and build that relationship and build that credibility before doing that. So I know that's kind of like a roundabout—

about it. No, no, no, you've answered it by saying— no, you've answered it by saying, hey, look, if you're in that position, sometimes, you know, you have to own it and be like, okay, look, this person needs to know. And I've been there, and I think the advice is own it, you know. Don't, you know, say like, look, so absolutely, I can explain those for you. So, uh, if this is contingent then we'll be working on 20%, um, uh, rate, 20% of the salary. Um, that's how we work, these are our terms. And then be quiet, don't say anything, you know, don't keep blabbling on like trying to justify it. Um, like just own it and be sure, like you said. I think that that's the advice. But let me, yeah, let me just come back to the, the pitch deck because I think that this would be really interesting for people, if you don't mind.

Of course.

So just for context then So when would you be introducing this pitch deck, for example? Because you mentioned quite a few facets there. So I'm assuming that, I don't know, maybe we've had a bit of an initial conversation, Brian, and it made sense that we book in a call, maybe a video, maybe in person, where we're going to talk about you potentially helping my organization or us partnering. So I'm assuming there's been some sort of dialogue, some sort of connect and chat before. We've then booked in time to chat, and this is in this chat, um, we're then gonna— I don't know, we might then have this chat and then we do the pitch deck. I don't know, you tell me the typical process, but I want to know when you typically introduce this pitch deck and use those assets to, you know, demonstrate value, demonstrate case studies, testimonials, and then followed by, and these are our terms and how we work together. When do you introduce that? What's the process?

Yeah, so we've kind of got our more like in-depth pitch deck, which is the, you know, the one where they're gonna to go away and proper read everything. And we do, we do have a kind of smaller little— it's more of a kind of like 2-pager PDF, and that basically is where it's hyperlinked to like our LinkedIn, all our contact details, and that is client testimonials and candidate ones. And they tend to cover the market, and sometimes I even have one that's more geared towards e-commerce, one's geared more towards PPC, SEO, that type of thing. So if I, if say I'm, I'm trying to go after, you know, after a prospective client, you know, via, um, via just LinkedIn or email. And that like little mini pitch deck I've created—

yeah, you might attach it there.

Okay, yeah, I actually just fired it on straight away and I've actually got a meeting with a guy next week. And it literally was— that was, it was a cold LinkedIn. I saw, saw he's been going through some really nice growth and we've got a chat, um, a chat next week. And the testimonials I sent over, I got my designer to edit some bits, and it basically was businesses like identical to his business. He's gonna open that and he's gonna go, yeah, yeah, like that, that guy can clearly recruit for my business. And I could see you viewed my LinkedIn profile. So I'd probably be a wee bit bold and already put that over straight away. But again, you know, we're recruiters, and I think I'm more in tune with this because I recruit in marketing. But also think as well, you're having to market yourself. So everything you do, you know, your, your copywriting, your, your, your material, all of that needs to be top-notch because otherwise the next recruiter is gonna have to do it better than you, aren't they?

Yeah. Okay. No, I really like that. Thank you for sharing that. So, so I'm just going to press you a bit here. So we've got the two-page, a bit more high level. I think what I want everyone to underline here, right, we've done some training on this at Recruitment Mentors.

Yeah.

And so many recruiters don't use testimonials and case studies. They don't, they don't. So many don't.

Yeah.

So what Brian is talking about here is Brian isn't doing the talking, his track record is. So for all of you that aren't utilizing your testimonials, LinkedIn testimonials, case studies, in your sales process when you're reaching out to people. Start, because you'll stand out, and all of a sudden it isn't Brian the recruiter sounding like everyone else saying, hey, give me a chance, look, you should speak to me, this is the reason. It's like, hey, look, just so you know, it's like you're going on this growth journey, we've actually helped companies similar to yours, this is what their experience was like, would you be— uh, again, it's booking in a conversation to see if it would make sense for us to get to know each other a bit more, right? So that's done the talking. So I guess all I want to know is So let's say then we have the chat, so that conversation you've had in, when do you use the more in-depth pitch deck, out of interest?

Yeah, so chances are, you know, I've either cold-called them or I've done LinkedIn, I've done email, and we've had that initial conversation is about getting to know one another, it's a chemistry call essentially, isn't it, you know? And, you know, I'm finding out what their issues are, listening to them, you know, what's, What's their growing pains? You know, what are they going through? What's their problems right now? Is their, is their recruitment supplier not hitting the mark? That type of thing. Listening to it and then looking at how we can solve that and then adjusting your pitch accordingly. And then after that would tend to be when we would send over the more in-depth kind of proposal document. And then if they're happy with that, do the terms, you know, digital sign, that type of thing. But typically I would say, um, and again, I think it's because I always tend to have quite natural conversations with kind of prospective clients, probably after that first call, probably by the time the call's over, you probably know if you want to work with one another or not. And again, it's about trying to kind of build that familiarity, building that relationship up. And again, I think it is just by being natural with yourself.

I really like that chemistry call. I like the way— yeah, because like, what, in my sales process, I would have a discovery call. That's what I would call it. And then put— what I would do, I know it's different, but I would then, if it makes sense to you, I would then be like, okay, Brian, look, from what I've learned today I feel like we could actually potentially help your business. These are the reasons why. Um, would you be against giving me another hour of your time, 45 minutes, however? Um, and I'm going to walk you through how I believe we can help you, um, and why we could potentially be, you know, be a good partner for you. So do it— sounds like then after that chemistry call, are you then sending over the pitch that you don't book in time to go through it?

It depends on the buying signals, you know, and it depends how they're you know, how they're feeling. And there's a lot— I've had a lot of those conversations before, and straight away you can tell they're keen, you can tell they're sold, and that's it. And you're happy to go and you're ready. You're thinking, right, we're going to do a site visit, we're going to onboard the roles. Fantastic, that's what you want. Sometimes client might say they want to go away and, you know, think about it. I had a chemistry call with a client the other week, and it went pretty well, but he hadn't worked with recruiters before because they had always kind of recruited organically. So what I then did was I went on site and we had a conversation, and from there it's, it's just kind of reading the room. Again, we're dealing with humans, everyone's very different, you know. Some people will, will put up a shield and they'll kind of have, you know, kind of keep recruiters at arm's length, and you have to try and break through that shield. So again, it's just kind of reading the room, I, I suppose. And again, that's kind of not a straight-up answer, but I think it is just in recruitment you need to be— you need to adapt so much, and I don't think you can do a kind of one size-fits-all approach. As I said, sometimes, you know, if someone's keen— again, if you speak to a candidate, you know if they want to go for the job or not, or they might want to go away and think. So again, what can you do? And if they're not on board and you don't think, you know, you're going to be working with them the next day and be going to that next stage, then say, right, well, you know, let's meet up and let's have a coffee, you know, and you can do some more research. I can you can send over the proposal document. And again, our proposal document is very soft. It's more about kind of what we do, it's more about how we market roles, it's more about what we have done, it's less about terms, and it's less about the corporate stuff. It's, it's a nice kind of user-friendly document, you know. So again, just read the room and kind of— that's just the number one thing, is you just, you just need to adapt to every single individual you're dealing with in recruitment. It's just you can't all use the same principle for every client and every person.

Is there anything that you've recently, you know, adapted, added, changed to your sales process that you think has had a real positive impact recently?

Yeah, so I probably would say it was, um, it probably was kind of adding that first initial document. Definitely, like, that was a kind of really good idea. Like, that, that definitely helped. And the way I think about it is, say, you know, I'm not saying I'm an athlete or something, but say if you're an athlete and you were good at what you did, chances are you've got your trophies in a cabinet. And I think recruiters kind of need to think like that a bit more, you know. If you, if you have helped that business scale, you've done this, you've done all those achievements, and that's why you should have all the recommendations, you should have that on a wee proposal document, you know. I, I think you should definitely— again, it's that fine line between boasting and kind of being, being aware and showcasing your achievements, you know. So definitely that. And the number one thing I would say as well, maybe not so recently, probably more kind of last 6 months, is definitely trying to do the face-to-face meetings 100%. I think— I feel like a lot of my clients are still adapting to, you know, doing face-to-face meetings. They're used to just jumping on Teams. But again, it's so important to build that chemistry. And again, just, just go for a coffee, go grab wee Starbucks, and get to know them as a person and build build our friendships.

I love it. I know we've gone super granular here on BD, but honestly, I know, I know, I know, honestly, Brian, there's so many sort of nuggets in there, and I know there's so many things that people can take away. And that's what it is, people want to listen to this sort of stuff and, you know, be able to apply stuff. So for me, if I'm listening right now and I haven't got any sort of, you know, sales assets or sales collateral, that would be the number one thing I'll be going, hey, right, my manager, can you help me create this? This is something that I need, it's going to help me. And like you said, it isn't about boasting, it's about having other people give you credibility and sort of vouch for, you know, what you're saying to people. And let's be honest, like, for me, this is how I find it as well, is when you have these things created and you can see them in front of you, these, you know, case studies or testimonials, it gives you more fucking confidence. It makes you more sure of yourself. Like, this is what it's about. Like, You know, like, um, yeah, like, you, you can outwork yourself out. You can create more evidence to back up why you shouldn't doubt yourself. Like, you know, and, and that's something that you should absolutely be utilizing as a recruiter, particularly as things get more tighter, budgets potentially get more tighter. It's like, look, you need to be sure of yourself and use your track record and what you've worked hard to do to do the speaking for you. Um, so, uh, look, I think what you've spoken a lot about in this episode is owning who you are being yourself. So, you know, what, what advice would you have for people that are struggling to walk into their power and, and be themselves and, you know, uh, are find that difficult? Because not— it's easy to sort of hear you say, yeah, look, be yourself. How— what, what, you know, what would be your advice for someone listening to this, you know, find that difficult, they feel like they have to have that work mask on? Yeah, what advice would you give to them to, you know, lean into that power and, and own who they are, which actually is going to be the best thing they can do for their career.

Yeah, definitely. It's a journey for sure. Like, way back when I was at school, I was like the bullied little gay nerd, basically, when I was at school. So it's taken probably for me, recruitment probably has enabled me to become that confident person and to become sure of myself. So for that, I'm so grateful to recruitment in the business I work for because I've been able to really grow and kind of flower as a person because I was, like I said, it's a different Brian way back. But I probably would say it'd be the people you surround yourself with and the leaders in your business and the business that you are working for. And, you know, the, the business that I work in, we, we were always more of a STEM recruiter, you know, so they were always doing kind of tech, you know, kind of dev type stuff and engineering, manufacturing. And my, um, directors, they, they've let me grow a division and they've honestly just kind of let me go and do my own thing and have completely empowered me and kind of offered me that's where to do that, you know, where I wait, where I wait to kind of do a bit of a brand relaunch where it can be 9 to 5 marketing and digital and really go hard after that. So what I would probably say is, and this is probably an extreme thing to say, but probably just make sure you're in the right business and you're surrounded by the right people. Because I've worked with a lot of people who maybe worked in quite corporate environments and they weren't corporate. I know if I was in a corporate recruitment business right now where it was like KPIs that are— I mean, all flourish, I, I would have not done well at all. So I would say just think about, think about where you are. Do you have the right influences around you? It's that whole thing, isn't it, of, you know, you surround yourself, you know, your result of the 5 people you surround yourself with type thing, you know. So make sure you're really in tune with that and think about how you can flourish and who's actually gonna, you know, who's gonna lead you and who's gonna grow you.

Great advice, Brian. Thank you so much.

No, thank you so much. Like I said, I waffle a lot, but hopefully some good nuggets there from this, from your Scottish, yeah.

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.