Building a $5M Recruitment Team in 3 Years with Ashley Jones

Ash, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, appreciate you, uh, you having me on.

It's been a little while since we spoke. You're joining me from Chicago, but you've had a few trips to the UK. But we're here now, we're ready to unpack this, this journey that you've been on over the last 5 years.

Yeah, I look forward to doing it. Bit of a crazy summer. I have 2 sisters and they both got married in the last 3 months, so—

well, so, so remind me, how long have you been in Chicago now?

Oh, so I've worked for Intel for 4 and a half years, just over now.

And then how long have you been in Chicago, living there?

So I've been in Chicago since the end of '22.

Okay, cool. Um, so yeah, you're joining me from there. Um, I know you, when we prepared for this, you said you always had aspirations to go to the US. We've made that happen. But in this conversation, we're going to look to sort of unpack the sort of classic journey in recruitment where you went from principal to now sales director. You're involved in, you know, the overall strategy of the business, um, as well. So like really looking forward to delve into things when it comes to this development strategy, getting more out of the team, then maybe some other business stuff in terms of what you're seeing working, the US nuance stuff, um, as well. So yeah, there's a lot to unpack. I guess just to give everyone some immediate context, let me know if I get any of this wrong. Um, but before Engstall, you was contracting the UK, right?

Yes.

Yeah, okay. And then we move markets. Cool. So up till now, in terms of how things look for you, um, today— so I think I've got here that you stopped being like hands-on billing in 2023. Yeah, halfway through, pretty much halfway through 2023. And then now you're more in a leadership role, but part of your role is absolutely helping the team win clients, go on pitches. But then a lot of it is on the management leadership stuff. And then as you said, some of your weeks can be more on the business strategy stuff. But up until that point, I think I've got here, your best year performance-wise individually was $850K, which I thought was really interesting in terms of, I've got here, 90% of that was contingent. Um, and then the rest was retained. Um, and you've always done like Boston local business. Um, and then now I'm sure you're probably even more proud of this team performance when we prepared for this, uh, that you've been involved in, been building, uh, leading 2021, 1.1 million as a team, 2022, 2.5 million, 2023, 3.5, and I put— got here on track to do 5 this year, or that, that's the ambition. Um, love it. So why don't we start with then, like, I'd love us to start maybe more on like the specifics for people listening to this who want to get better on the new business side, because I'm sure this is where you maybe spend a lot of your coaching time as well. Um, I think maybe like, if you don't mind, like, would you mind sharing to start what were some of the if there was any immediate differences that you picked up on from UK contract market to doing new business in the US, particularly obviously for you was Boston. Like, what were some of the immediate things that you picked up on early on looking back, do you think, in terms of the differences?

Yeah, I think, I think there was, there was quite a few different things that made it a bit of an initial challenge because I, from a personal side, I actually made a transition to doing permanent recruitment from contract as well. So I I went in with a little bit of a different mindset as well around kind of the speed of things and, and how quickly you could turn anything into revenue. And I found that my, my initial kind of perception of the market is that things just go a little bit slower and the initial ramp up is less like see job, fill job, move on. It was far more of an approach of like adding value to the client and talking to them around and say like what it is I do and how I actually can help you hit your goals. So it's not just I need a software engineer to join my team on Monday, let me know when they are. It's more of a letting them understand like, okay, I work in the local market, I have access to a network of people who do this sort of skill sets. This is what we can offer. How can I help you with your hiring process? And there's a lot more partnership to it where clients will want you to be able to talk them around like, this is where you're probably going to struggle. This sort of skill set is a little bit more difficult to find. Or this might take this sort of timeline. They want a lot more of like a transparent partnership. And I found it opened up relationships and clients that in the long term become significantly easier to work with than it was when I was in the UK. But that initial point was almost like my mindset had to change a little bit from being like job, fill job to really fill job.

Love that.

Yeah.

And I guess interesting to hear your thoughts on If I was a friend of yours right now, I'm in contract recruitment, I've got this great opportunity to join a business, but it's going to be on the perm side. Like, what advice would you give me? Like, what would be good to bear in mind if I'm coming from that, like you said, that contract environment? Like, anything that you'd share with me?

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing I will say to anyone, and we've hired a few people into my team actually from UK contract, so I tell them this exact same thing, it's like, don't lose the mentality of speed, the urgency, the the almost fear of missing out because there's so much competition, you're going to lose if you're a moment slower. Don't lose that, but then make sure that the client is treated like a genuine customer and that you're adding value where it is. So like, you know, I always give them little examples of like, just call the customer and let them know about what's going on in the market, talk to them around like what you see. And if you've been speaking to some of their competitors and you're seeing some information from them, drop some of that information to them and it'll just be a lot— well, a lot more received from them. So I always advise that sort of things, but I say just don't lose the speed element because that helped me to separate when I first started. Because I'd be speaking to clients, I'd be like, look, I'll get you 3 people in the next day. And they'd be like, oh, that wasn't what I expected. Then when I did it, they'd be like, that was, that was great. Like, they'd be almost shocked. So I always say don't lose that bit of like hunger to fill roles quickly by getting good.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that that can almost become a bit more of a competitive advantage because you're so used to that urgency and competition and stuff. Why don't we go into this then? Because I feel like this would be also part of like the relationship piece and the bits that you're just saying. When were you prepared for this? Something that you really drilled down on, uh, when I was talking about some of the things that you're passionate about, some of the things that you really help your team with, was— I've got it written down here— like being an expert in your market with like 5 exclamation points. Like, do you want to, do you want to just talk us through like what that means to you? Because I feel like this is something that won't be new to anyone, right? For some people it might be. Some people might perceive that they are an expert in their market, but like, how would you define that? Like, why is that so important? Talk us through that.

Yeah, I think for me, I, I put the most weight into this as to what made me successful and has helped me help people be successful, is just truly understanding what you were talking about. And when I said that to clients, for me it was like I always say to guys, like, I'm not an engineer, I'm never going to be an engineer. I don't know how to do this stuff in itself, but like, I understand why you need certain people to do something. And it used to help me get a lot of buy-in from candidates and clients alike. So like, for example, for me, it was like, I always wanted to know if they were working on a medical device, like a surgical robotic arm, what 3 chips were most likely going to be used so that when I was speaking to a client, I could really dig into it and be like, okay, are you using this? And then I, before they could say it to me, I'd be like, okay, does that mean you're using this language to do this for this end purpose? And it would allow me to get a buy-in that immediately put me on more of a partnership level with the client as opposed to a recruiter level. And I always used to say this, and it's, you know, maybe sounds a little arrogant at the start, but I always say, look, I'm not your normal recruiter. I genuinely know this market, so let's like really get into the depths of what you're looking for here. And the buy-in I used to get from that was kind of unparalleled, like kind customers would just spend ages talking about what they were doing. Like, I used to have them, like, bring up, like, shares, and they'd, like, show me what their arms were doing in the— if it was a robotic arm, or they'd show me, like, what their actual product was. And I could see— and I actually might find my job more enjoyable doing this as well, because we worked on the cutting edge of technology, and it was kind of fascinating stuff that I never thought when I was probably 18 years old that I'd be working with clients who were building these things that changed the world. And it made it a lot more enjoyable for me. And then it also meant that when I spoke to candidates, I could really go into the depths of what this client was doing. And I could explain to them, hey, look, they're using this language to do this. What's your experience like with that? So then when I send candidates over to clients and I can put full details of like, look, they've done this, this, and this that matches with them. But it also enabled me to fill a lot of positions where I'd find a candidate that didn't do exactly what they did. But because I understood the market so well, I could find someone that was very comparable in a different world. And translate it across. Like, an example I was thinking of is I had a robotic client, and what they did was very much like, um, it was robots for the warehouse, but they built their product like a medical device. So when recruiters were trying to work with them, they were sending them robotics candidates thinking, this is a fit, this is a fit, this is how I want to work with them. I understood from them they actually needed someone from a safety-critical industry. It was a different kind of skill set, and I said that to them when they sent them over. And then we ended up signing terms with them, working together, and we did about 10 placements over the next year and a half. And these are all because they needed something slightly different than on the surface level it looked like.

Some really interesting points there. Would you mind, because I think it might just be helpful at this stage, would you mind just— I don't know, how important is it for you? Does this go hand in hand with like your niche focus? Have you always been in a niche?

Yes, I've always done embedded software and electrical engineering.

And okay, so that's your world then? Just, yeah, because I thought that might be helpful for people. Embedded software, what do you say?

Sorry, embedded Embedded software and electrical engineering.

Okay, and that's always been like what you focused on since you've been going to Boston as well?

Yeah, and then I primarily focused on a few industries. Um, I would do mostly medical devices, robotics, and semiconductors.

Okay, so yeah, so there could be people that have the skill set but may operate in industries outside of those that you just mentioned, but you found yourself focusing on skill set and also those industries?

Yeah, it was more so with the industries. It was kind of like I always wanted to position myself at the industries that were likely to get investment and growth because Boston's ecosystem is so led by startups and investment and the actual universities in the area spanning out startups. Um, I wanted to be at the areas where the money was going and Semiconductors is a bit of a novelty in that it goes up and down consistently as an industry. That's just what it is. But with medical devices, robotics, money is always getting sent into them because there's just always going to be a need in the world that we're moving towards.

So you— I really like the examples that you shared there. So I just want to make sure that— just ask you a couple of things on that because I think it'd be helpful for people. So really like that example of like when they started talking about something, you said, oh, and does that mean like this? I think that was really powerful to sort of like showcase your credibility by saying, oh, like, is it, uh, yeah, like, into— insert your, um, market expertise in that way. I think that that's really smart. If, like, how do I start building that if I'm listening to this? Is it, is it through more on the candidate side? Like, is it by being really curious and leaning into curiosity and, like, being like, tell me more about that? And then it's then being smart with, like, what you remember, what you jot down, what you deem to be important, where you can then bring into these client conversations.

Yeah, I think for me there's kind of a couple of things. That's the first one. Most of what I learned came from candidates and just asking questions, really wanting to understand when they said, you know, I recently built this. I'd always be like, okay, so what did you do on that? And then when they'd be like, I use this language doing this to that, I'd be like, okay, is that normally how you do it? Or how did that link to this part of the project? And I just try and get a bit of an understanding of For me, it was all about the links of like everything always means that this used to be something else. Like if there's a certain chip there, they usually have to do it a certain way. And then it enabled me to kind of build up knowledge of like this will probably lead to this, meaning this. And then when you speak to clients, I would couple that with that bit of information I knew. And then I'd ask them, is there anything similar to this that would work? And then once you've had that conversation so many times, you start to pick up that knowledge. No, these days I advise people to do both of those two things, but I also tell everyone to use ChatGPT as well because that really speeds things up a little bit. Uh, one of the guys in my team taught me something that I'd never used it for, and whenever he's not sure on something, he writes into ChatGPT and he asks it to explain it to him like he was 9 years old.

Yeah, I've had that prompt. Someone mentioned to me the other day, it's super smart. Yeah, okay, that's really interesting. And then Does this ever stop? Like, are you really big on this? Like, are you always championing your team to be like, look, this never stops? This is like, if you really want to— like, do you think this goes into like standing out, like being different? Because you said like by having this approach and maybe doing these little extra things, you're then able to showcase a bit more credibility, have more partnership-level conversations, versus like you just said, more of the 'Can you find this person for me?

Can you fill this job for me?' Yeah, I think it never stops, especially because the sort of markets we move in are working a forward-moving tech market. There's always new stuff. Like, you know, I started in this market 8 and a half years ago now, and some of the languages and some of the stuff that I knew was like the absolute hottest piece of technology is nearly obsolete at this point. And that if I don't consistently develop, then I won't know that. I won't know where the areas are to grow and You know, the opportunities typically come in these markets from what I've seen in being in that hottest next thing. And the only way to get there quicker than anyone else is to speak to people and understand what they're interested in, what's changing there, why there's new languages being used, or what the new thing that they're designing is. And it can always be something different. Sometimes it's the new robotic piece of technology, sometimes it's just a new chip, sometimes it's a new way of designing the chip. A different language. And, um, I think you've always got to try and stay on your A-game there because, like you said, on the partnership side it helps, but it also helps guide you. You know, I always say in recruitment that the market will usually tell you where to go if you just spend time learning and sort of really get yourself in the midst of it. Like, it will guide you in the right direction.

Because I was just going to be my, my final point on this, like, where else have you seen really being committed to this have like a really positive impact on the recruitment process or just being a recruiter in general? You've said it— you feel like it helped you sort of stand out, elevate the conversation you could have with clients, uh, also helped you actually understand, um, maybe potential people that could be a better fit for them because you went that extra mile and you understood things. So you actually ended up getting people in front of them that maybe they wouldn't have thought of, um, or other recruiters wouldn't have thought of. Like, where else does this show up, um, in getting those sort of competitive edges, do you think?

Yeah, I think there's a few. One thing that always shone for me, and I looked at some of the numbers on this, is in the 3 years or 3 and a half years that I was making placements, I only ever had one person leave on rebate. And I think that was largely down to the focus I had on genuinely placing people who I thought were a fit for a role. That was one thing that always benefited me because, you know, no one likes having to refill anything. And then the second one for me as well, is as I was trying to elevate my billings and get up to higher numbers, I was all focused on efficiency. And the only way I found I could be more efficient was by understanding everything better so I'd have to do less. Because I remember having a conversation looking at myself and being like, look at my interview to placement ratio. I am going to need to get 40, 50 interviews a month just to be able to bill where I want to bill. And I found it a lot easier to bring that ratio down than I did to hit those higher numbers.

Interesting, right?

Yeah.

Okay, so rather than getting more interviews, how can I get less but make sure those aren't guaranteed but are going to be— yeah, I can look at that and go, you know what, because of how good they are, how right they are, because they understand things, good chance that that's going to lead to a placement. Um, what, what do you think about this end? Because I feel like some people might think that— think this would be interesting to get your thoughts. If you felt like this really helped you elevate how you perceived partnership, how come you think you did so much of your work on a contingent basis versus retained? Because surely that goes hand in hand, right? Um, just curious.

Yeah, I think, I think for me, honestly, the initial part was just a lack of knowledge around doing retainers. Um, I, I did most of the retainers I did in my best year came at the back end of the year after I actually went on a training course around the— because the business identified that it was, was a weakness. It's now something that we actually do a lot more of, and that I really invested into when I, when I learned it. So that, that was one reason, was just a lack of knowledge around it. But then the second one is I took a lot of my approach, even though I was very focused on working hand in hand with clients, But I did a lot of candidate work into clients. So, you know, a lot of the time, and I think I've seen people, a lot of these folks talk around, but I did a lot of placing candidates. So like if I worked with a candidate that, you know, I'll use a robotic example again, and I found out they designed a specific part of a surgical robotic arm, I would go and speak to every client that I knew did that surgical robotic arm or something that was similar to it and work with them. Because like my first year, and I found the the ramp-up part of the US market is always a little challenging. In this, it takes a little bit of time, but I tried to build as many relationships with companies as I could. And this wasn't always— when I say relationship, it wasn't always a company I placed, it wasn't always a company I worked a lot of jobs, but it was someone who knew who I was. So when I had a candidate, I would go and put them in front of the 3 to 5 companies that I thought were the right fit for them, and I would do a lot of placements that way.

So a lot, a lot of like speccing in, a lot proactive speccing in.

Yeah, a lot, I reckon.

What, and you're saying a big— like, that just meant that you was doing what, a lot more like ones and twos with clients?

Yeah, yeah. So, so I think even though I had these relationship with all these clients, like, I, I had— I would usually have every year, I would have 2 or 3 clients that probably turned up about 50% of my revenue, and then the other 50% came from selling candidates and putting them into companies that I knew, you know. When I say San Canisso and I was speccing them, I was mostly speccing them to people I knew. It was rarely— was it a cold spec at that point? It was always someone who I'd spoken to and I'd had at least 1, 2, 3 good conversations with by that point.

And do you think then the net benefit of that is that when you do show up again and you do a good job of going, the reason why I'm talking about this person is because of what I learned last time? Like, that's the difference? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, that, that was, that was like, that is one of the big advantages. I probably should have said this earlier, of understanding your market and have those conversations, is that when you speak to a client like that and then next time you turn up and you say, hey, we spoke about this last time, I want to, let me tell you why I'm calling today, and it's exactly what they were telling you about, they will usually have a pretty good conversation with you and it turns into a good relationship.

Hmm. Is this something that you're still seeing work with your team now?

Yes.

Yeah, because it's interesting, right? I feel like whenever I hear or read things like, are, um, cat— like, speccing is dead, or like these, like, that type of stuff, like, I think always the, the best way to think about it rather is like, how can you make what you're doing better? Um, and it sounds like what you've made better there is the, like, who you're talking to. So you're being very targeted. And then I'm assuming then in these conversations, if I was to listen to one, um, that person, regardless of them going, you know what, like, I'd love to interview them, I'd love to meet them, they're gonna feel like heard or listened to, um, because you're talking about someone that you feel like could potentially add value to their current workforce or solve a particular problem or has experience with what you know that they do, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's always like, the way I always think about it is like there's only a finite amount of time in the day. And when any client has a conversation with you, they want to at least feel like that was a valuable use of their time. And if they don't, they're probably not going to want to work with you. They're probably not going to want to speak to you the next time you call. So I always just try and make sure that they leave the feeling of the conversation of that this is something that could add value to them or their business at some point in the future, you know, whether that be an immediate candidate, whether that be, you know, letting them know that I am someone who understands what they're doing and can add value to them in the future when they need me. You know, I'd always look for that, that kind of end result of just a belief that I'm going to be able to add value to them.

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Yeah, yeah. So there was a few different things for me, and they kind of all trickle into each other as such. But first one was candidate qualifications to submissions. Because a lot of what I did was sending candidates out to multiple places. I wanted to have more submissions than I did candidate qualification calls. So I know sometimes that's a little contrary to recruitment as a whole, but—

Sorry, Tobin, how would you define a submission? Just so we're on the same page.

I'm submitted to a client that I'm working with.

So you wanted to have more submissions versus more candidate qualifications? Okay.

Because I wanted to know that when I had a good candidate, I was sending them to at least 3 places. I wanted to know that I had enough contact points in the market and enough clients that would be interested. Then they wouldn't always be live positions, but there would at least be a company that'd be like, I'd be interested if you had something like this for me, you know, not an A-grade job as such. Then for me, it was all around my interview efficiency from first interview to final interview and how efficient I could make that. Then final interview to placement and then offer acceptance ratio. I found that as long as I could control all four of those numbers and put them into you know, effectively the green zone for me, um, and it would enable me to do more revenue for less work effectively.

German, let's just break this down a bit because I think— because this will probably be an area that people could feel like they could refine, just, just out of interest. So we've spoken about how can you get more out of the input on like speaking to people about the kind that you're working with, right? So we're saying if you're— firstly, are you speaking to people that maybe you've already spoken to, that you've learned something about their business, about their team, and then you're— the next time you speak to them or you're submitting a CV, um, you're like matching that up really well. Yeah, this is using that expertise. Um, so I'll be interested to hear your take on this then. What about on the submissions piece? I guess what I'm asking, because we've done a few bits on this and I think it's interesting, because there's a lot of people that I've spoken to that this is their like lead way into working with clients, getting business. Do you also use these submissions that you do to also like open up doors? So, you know, you're saying that you have like— you always want to do 3 submissions. I'm assuming not every time you're speaking to about 3 people that you've spoken to before, right?

Yeah.

You're also saying that that's also one of the ways that helps you open up the door to have that initial conversation, so next time you're like more known. Is that—

is that right? Yeah. So I treat them as 2 separate numbers. So, so that would be a submission, then I would just call that as a spec. Okay, so then I would define that. But those— the spec for me then is like, is I want to then identify— in an ideal world, there's not always going to be this for the candidate, but I would want to identify 25 companies for that candidate to open the door. And this is more in the earlier days of Builders on Market, I didn't have as many chips, but I would always try and look for at least 25 companies that were a fit, and I would try and be super tailored on that, as specific as I could possibly be with, with the companies.

And the reason why I bring that up is because, um, had this chat, Max, on not too long ago, and like, I don't know how you feel about this, but I do feel like oftentimes when people have a real reluctance around picking up the phone, you know, a part of the root cause of that is like they don't feel like they have a compelling reason why, as to like why they're calling someone. So if we get this bit right, we can really equip people with like a compelling reason, um, why. And something that Max was talking about, which I think was, was really great, was he'll, you know, use the to the person that he's working with, and he'll do, like you said, be specific, call these companies. And if he does get through and he speaks to them, like, the goal isn't to get a job on or try and fill a job or anything like that. It's really just to try and learn information about that business, right? And really understand, like, if budget wasn't an issue, like, what would be the skill set? What would be the type of people that you'd love, that you feel like you really need in the business, or that would have a big impact in the business? Like, was you using this to also help you get some of this information so the next time you show up you can be like, hey, you know, you know, 3 months ago when I spoke to you about this person, you said, you know, if budget wasn't an issue, we didn't, uh, we'd love to look at someone like that. You're then going, I've got someone like that. Is that fair?

Yeah, it would be exactly like that. Like, in the early days, it would be a lot of sending them to who I thought was relevant and then trying to have a conversation with them and just find out, you know, am I on the right lines? Is this someone who you think would be relevant? If not, why not? And because it would be so tailored to them most of the time, and I'd always explain when I was sending a spec why I thought they were a fit, most of the time— it's most times I'd be a little generous, but a lot of the time they would be open to saying, actually, no, that's not a fit. I can see why you'd think that, but we do things a little differently here. And that's a great opportunity to be like, oh really, how do you do it? And then you leave that call understanding them as a business. But you also leave knowing more about the market and understanding that, okay, I actually thought that you could only do this that way. You can actually do it this way. And then it also opens up a new kind of avenue to look down and be like, okay, there's actually more candidates that I could be sending in this area, or more I could learn about part of the market that I didn't realize prior to that conversation. Then it's about the inquisitive nature, I guess, of like being really like almost excited to be like, okay, let me go down that path and see what I can discover.

Yeah, so early on we want to be doing more of that because we get more information, understand more of like the companies that would look for the types of people that you're speaking to. And then if we do a good job of that, then you should be hopefully always be in a position where there could be 3 companies that you know that they should be at least curious or interested to hear about this person that you're working with, which is the submission part.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Love that. So that's something that you dialed. Okay, second thing then, when you say controlling the interview process, tell me about that. What do you mean? Are we, are we getting a bit more like all over, like, okay, once, you know, I submit an interview, a CV, this is what I expect, let's book in, you know, time slots now. Like, talk to us about that, how you got that a bit more watertight.

Yeah, a lot for that was, you know, I'd always, whenever I was first sort of having this conversation and building the partnership as such, when we're actually working on an active role and we have a candidate that, or we're sending candidates, or we're about to get to the interview stage, I would also map— I would always map it out at the start. And I was lucky, my first manager in recruitment drilled this into me in my first year, and I'm very grateful that he did. Um, but it put me in a position where I would always map out, like, look, when do you want to get this person in, in place by? Okay, great. If we get someone interviewing this week, When can we realistically get them through the process? What does that look like? Okay, can we find out the times that'll work on that now? And then to actually map out that process so that, again, I would say to them like, okay, great, you do this, then let me tell you what I'm going to do. My part of this, this deal is I will get you people by this time, this date. And then as long as we're on the same page, we can get through this process. And then I would always have check-ins during that point of calls with clients, because again, I found a lot of times people don't want to answer random calls. So I would always be really honest with a client on that first call. I'd be like, look, I'm not gonna blow up your phone, that's not who I am. But I do want to just have a few call points where we can check in and we can just go through candidates here, we can go through the interview feedback here, and I'm not going to make it a crazy amount of time, just— but I just want to make sure that we're going for everything right and that I'm doing a good job for you and that this is going how you want it to go. And I always found people were very receptive to that. And I'd always say little things about, look, I'll make it work around you if you want to do lunchtimes, if you want to do after hours, whenever that might I'm happy to, to do what suits you, but it would enable me to control that process. And my interview, and particularly my final interview to placement ratio, was, was very close to 1 for a long time. And I think a lot of it was, was down to that part of the process of understanding and controlling every piece of it.

And I'm sure you've had people, you've had to manage people that have dealt with this, but like, what, how do we navigate How do you navigate when clients are like, Ash, look, I've worked with other recruiters, they don't need this much time from me, um, like, I don't want to do that, can you just send me robotic engineers and if they're good we'll interview them? Like, how are you navigating that?

So I always say to my team, I actually say, look, if, if I can't get a client to commit to any more than that, I won't work with that client. And I found early in my career Um, I was always told, look, you can say no to clients, and I never listened because you can't. All right, right. I never listened because I was like, I desperately wanted that job, I desperately wanted that place, but desperately wanted that commission. And I understand that. And as I got more and more experience and I worked with more and more companies, I realized that saying no was, was almost the key a lot of the time to being a lot better at this job. So I try to empower people early on. I understand, again, because I was that person who didn't want to say no early in my career. I understand it's not as natural, but I tell people, if that's all you're going to get from a client, then, then don't work with that client, because the time you're going to commit into that, you know, it's far often not going to pay off. Whereas that time you can be spending on customers who are going to treat you as a partner is going to be a lot more valuable. So I try and empower them to say no. Obviously, before that, you want to see if you can make some way of working, because, you know, not every relationship with a client that you have starts off with them being like, yes, no, that's great, let's do exactly what you're asking us. That's not the reality we live in. So you'd always try and find some sort of way, and I think that all comes down to you really telling the benefit of why you want to do it that way and showing them that you're different. And I think a lot of that, and to making sure that on that initial part of the call, when you're talking around your market, you're talking around your process and what you're going to do, that you're showcasing enough value that they want to commit the time to you versus the other recruiters that they're working with, or how they've done things in the past, and making sure there's a reason that's compelling enough for them to give you that time.

How do you think we can say no without, like— because a lot of times people, like you said, people might feel like they don't want to burn any bridges, or they don't want to, you know, piss off clients or whatever. Like, how do you think, or Or how have you seen your team say no in like a, almost a way that actually gives them more credibility, or in like a really graceful way? Like, how can we say no?

I think it's, I think it's just been very transparent. Like, I always say to them, like, look, I'll be really honest with you. This is how I tell people to say it, pretty much. I'll be like, look, I'll be really honest with you. I'm not gonna be able to do my job properly if I can't get these things from you. And I'll say, look, I understand if perhaps you can't commit to all of these. Like, I understand you're busy, there's a lot of parts to your job. But if we can't get X and X or this and this or this bit of commitment that we need, like, we're not going to have to do this job for you. And I'd be failing my candidates by not being able to tell them the timelines of the stuff we're talking about. And honestly, I'd be failing you because my process doesn't work if we can't do these things. Now, look, I'm very confident I can help you fill this position if we can work together on it, but I'm not going to be able to do it under these circumstances. And then I've always waited to see what they come back to. Most of the time they'll come back and be like, look, Maybe we can talk about this check-in call here, or we can talk about this, or we can work on this. And, you know, you leave a position, and then once you do that— and let's say it's the feedback call on CVs, let's say that they commit to that and they didn't want to— when you go through that and they realize, oh, you've sent me 3 people here who are great, and on that call you'd be like, look, I also just want to tell you this about them, they're also doing this, this doesn't show up on the resume, but let me tell you this about them, or they're interviewing here with this company at this, and, and you give them that information, they leave that call thinking, oh, that was actually worth my time. Then they'll probably be a lot more receptive to the next conversation that you're asking to have. And then all of a sudden you started to build that relationship and get it to the point where you want, because they've seen the value of it.

Yeah, that's class. Really great breakdown that, mate. Um, and then just to wrap this up together then, just curious, because we've had a few people break this down, how would you view There might be more steps to it, but like, if I was in your team and I said, just sign this client, we're working together, we've got the process points agreed, what would you expect to see as like a minimum? Uh, do you know what I mean? Is it like the job briefing call and then we've got interview slots, we've then got, uh, um, interview feedback slots? Like, what would you expect to see on the process plan as a minimum that you sort of found to be like the most effective or the like would put you in the best position to feel like more in control of what's happening and like the overall process? What does that typically look like, the checkpoints?

Yeah, so my initial one would be I would always do the job briefing call. You've gone through everything, you've talked about it. Then part of what I would do there is I'm always then very, very honest and transparent with my client because I always tell my team, we obviously want to deliver quickly to our clients, but if this is a role that's like really niche or really difficult, do not tell them you're going to get them 3 people in 24 hours if you can't do it. Because you are going to fail and you're not going to look good, and it's going to be the opposite of what we're trying to encourage on this process. So make sure you make an educated decision on what that timeline needs to be for you to not make your life too easy, but like to make sure it's just realistic on when you can deliver.

Again, market expertise, right? So it's about— but it's again market expertise, isn't it, that we're coming back to?

Yeah. So then once you've had that conversation, so let's just say in the case of this one, it's 48 hours. I would tell them this, that's my commitment to you. I'm going to get you these people in 48 hours. Um, let's put in our call at this point to check in on the resumes. And then I always frame this and be like, look, I'm very confident, I know what we're talking about here, but you are— this is a new relationship, we've not worked together on this. That check-in call will be a good point for us just to make sure we're properly aligned on exactly what you're looking at here. Um, then I do that call, then I will schedule the one for the feedback on the interviews. And in an ideal world, you've got interview slots very close together so you can do them all together, find out where they're at. And then what I always say on my value proposition to that is, but like, look, what I'll give you on that call is I'll tell you what every candidate thought of the interview so you're aware how they're feeling about things. And, you know, hopefully it'll align with who you're preferring the most. Then on that one, go for the process, schedule the next interview. Then I always do a check-in depending on if there's 2 or 3 stages. In ideal world, there's 2. But I'll do a check-in call just before, and I was like, hey, just before you find an interview, just want to reconfirm everything we've talked about. This candidate is in this situation, they're there, this is the compensation. To make sure everything is perfectly aligned. Then straight after the interview, I'll have a call booked in for the final interview feedback. Usually, let's say it's an afternoon, the next morning. And then I'll just talk to them around that and I'll be like, look, okay, make sure that we're aligned on what the offer process is going to look like. Go for all of that. And then I'll just say, look, I'll go and deliver this and I'll come back to you on exactly how it looks. So I'll check in with them, just like, hey, look, conversation went really well. In an ideal world, they'll accept straight away, but I think more realistically, they'll probably take a day or an evening to chat to their significant other or whatever that is. And then I'll always let them know, I'll get back to you this time tomorrow with the decision and where we're at. But I'll always let them know as well. By that point, I've got the relationship of like, look, I think we're in a good position. I think this is going well for this reason, that kind of stuff. And it's, it's just a lot of transparency about where we're at. And I've found that every time I've done that, clients are very receptive to doing it the next time.

Yeah, that's class. Brilliant, brilliant breakdown. So yeah, you, um, would hate me if I was in your team and you said that Hishem 'How do we feel about this particular interview process? I know you've had a few finals.' And I go, 'Yeah, actually, I have no idea what's going to happen.' You don't want to be hearing that. You don't want to be hearing that.

I've never very much— I always say, 'Look, we want to close as much as humanly possible, but the reality is not everything is going to fit perfectly.' But our job, and where we should know, is we should know. Go again, that it's not always the person.

You should at least know the next state, what happens next. I'm gonna get— find out from— like, if I'm struggling to tell you, well, I'm just waiting for this person to come back to me, or I'm not sure, I'm waiting to find out this, like, that's maybe where you want to look at the process that you just mapped out. Um, yeah, and can it be improved? But yeah, just hearing you break down that, right, how like instantly you're going to feel so much more in control when you're looking at your pipeline and you're working in that way, or 80% of that way, with a lot of your clients, you're gonna be a lot more confident, you know, projecting like what should land, and you know, what pipeline might actually become true, right? Which is the whole point, which is I guess why you really ended up focusing on that, and honing on that. Because, just quickly then on this, like what did it maybe look like before you got really good at this? Was it a bit more like, this should happen, or like you only had maybe one of those things, like do you know what I mean? Like what did it look like before, just?

Yeah, it was more of a like, this should happen, or more than anything, it was more that I wouldn't have a backup plan. It was kind of like, I'd be like, great, I've got 2 final interviews, I'll probably do 2 deals. Whereas now, and once I implemented this, I could be like, okay, look, this is looking very promising. This might be the only obstacle in the way. Or this one, look, it's not looking great. He's in full process or whatever it might be. I need to make sure I've got backup plans there. I need to make sure I'm communicating with the clients so that we've got— if they do realize it's candid, we can move quickly, we can put everything in place, give ourselves the best chance. And for me, it was all about just making sure I had the best possible opportunity to convert anything that I ever had in process by knowing everything about it.

Yeah. So what— did you always have a sort of inner ambition to go into coaching, leadership? Because I know not everyone has that.

Yeah, I did. Um, I think initially, I think it came from just seeing people in those roles, and, and I used to look at them and I used to think, you know what, I'd like to do that. I like, I like helping people. I like having conversations. I really like— I get a lot of enjoyment, or I did when I first started mentoring and helping people, of seeing that almost light bulb moment where it clicks and they understand what you're talking about, or or seeing the excitement on people when they like, they close a few deals or they have like a really great month, or they message you, which I got this month from one of my rookies from last year, and messaged me, um, with their like first really, really big commission check, and they're like, I don't know what to do with this. It's one of those moments of like seeing how much it means to people. I got a lot of enjoyment out of seeing people go on that journey, and, um, ever since going into management, that's just kind of been amplified.

Yeah, I mean, let's like break this down a bit because I— when we prepared for this, I found it— am I right in thinking like up until— so like end of 2022, you're still billing? Yeah. And you was managing 13 people? Yeah. That's crazy. Like how— like if I, if I was just a fly on the wall, like what would your week look like? Because how are you How you imagine 13 people when, like, still hitting numbers?

Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously the numbers I was hitting were less. Uh, you know, I don't profess to anyone that I was able to build at the same levels I was. Um, I think, I think it came down to a few different things. One, I had a very well-built market. Um, so I didn't really have to do a ton of proactive work. In terms of I'd have candidates coming to me semi-often, I'd have clients that were built. So that kind of metric of I needed a few companies where I could send every candidate when I got one was already there for me. And at that point as well, I had quite a few clients that would come to me from previous clients or previous candidates who'd move on to a different site. Like I've still billed for the first half of 2023 and it all came from a client I placed with who were like a 20-person startup. Went to one of the biggest semiconductor companies in the world, um, and took me with him. Um, so a lot of the BD was kind of done naturally through the work I already put in. So that only took up, you know, my own business probably took up about 35-40% of the week, and then the rest of the time was on developing and managing individuals and, and putting them in a position where when I did grow my team and split out into other managers, I was able to give more experienced people under the managers and hopefully make their initial part of the journey a little bit easier by every manager having a right-hand person as such.

We'll get back to the episode in just one minute, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. The problem with most recruitment CRMs is that they are just a database of records, meaning they become just one of the many tools that recruiters use every day. Like with all systems, the records are only as good as the data being captured. Our sponsors Firefish know that for agencies to win faster, data needs to be at the heart of their business, making your CRM the single source of truth. With over 10,000 records created and updated every day and 85% of placements from existing candidates, Firefish enables recruiters to enrich and engage their data, equipping you with real-time insights needed to win faster. To learn more about Firefish and take advantage of an exclusive Recruitment Mentors Podcast offer, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast when speaking to the Firefish team. And then, just curious, I know there won't be like an exact science to it, but you know, with what you're saying there in terms of like you was able to still do the management coaching side and 30% of your job was the desk because of how established it was, Like, what does that— I guess what I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on then is like, at what point does that look like where you can go, you know, actually, if I was to start adding people underneath me— because I'm sure in a lot of companies it happens way before they've got to the point of where your, the, where your desk was. Yeah, like, what, what would be like some good signs to go, you know what, actually, I feel like if we— I was to add, you know, 1, 2, how many people my desk would still be in good shape because like this is happening. Does that make sense? Sorry, like, yeah, because the way you describe your desk, a lot of people would have been chucked people and their desk is nowhere like that. So I guess just be interested to hear your thoughts on it because I'm sure you think about this now when maybe you add people under other managers. Like, at what point do you feel confident that their desk is like more sustainable, self-sufficient, so they're going to have more time to coach effectively and stuff?

Yeah, I think, I think firstly it's a lot based on the client portfolio that they have, and I always try and look at it and I say, look, do you have the client portfolio to potentially be able to spend X amount of less time and still produce similar results right now? And is that impossible? So for me, I just look predominantly at the client side of things, and like, do you understand that bit, or, or have you got things at a point in your market or your desk where it's working for you and you are getting the similar results for less actual output? And I think if the answer's no, you aren't ready for someone because you just don't have the time to commit to them. And when I've seen people get given someone when they really— the desk really isn't ready, I've found that it just becomes so stressful for them that no one wins in that scenario. So I, I really try and avoid when I'm making people managers and helping them in that as if of giving anyone managerial responsibilities when they're not ready for their own desk. So for me, it's pretty much clients.

What would you expect to see in the client portfolio? Like, I've done X number of placements for this. I don't know, like, what would you expect to see there which would give you confidence?

It depends on the market because I think some markets are so candidate-led, it's more about having a ton of clients that, again, you can send a candidate when you get 1 to 3 or 4 or 5. Or having a few core clients. So for me, I'd like to see at least one core client regardless of your sort of market. But then if it's a market where you need to have a lot of clients, I want to see 20, 30, 40 clients that you know you can send people to. Or if it's one where it's less like that, I just want to see 10 to 15 stable clients where we can say, hey, in 2025 we're going to get X amount of revenue from this customer.

Yeah, appreciate breaking that down. So like when we mapped out where you spend a lot of your time, really interested to hear how you've got better at this, because I feel like this is something that we're huge advocates here at Hector in terms of like we really feel like a high leverage task for managers, which oftentimes they don't get enough time for because maybe their desk isn't as developed it should be in these things, is that coaching piece and that like one-on-one time. How— what's been your relationship with getting better at this? Because I've got here— I know it's not accurate every week, but 60% of your time is one-on-ones twice a week with everyone in the team and call coaching. And I felt like when we spoke about this, the reason— there's no, there's no way that you're not doing that because, right, there's no way that you're spending that amount of time and not feeling like it's having a big impact. So like, what's been your relationship with this? Firstly, like, just talk to us a bit about that.

Yeah, um, I mean, firstly, I was, I was very lucky in, in my career at Intel that I, I had two mentors and managers who taught me this approach very, very early on, and they really drilled into me the importance of spending time. And they would always say inside someone's desk, like really understanding their business and what they were doing. So I kind of saw the value immediately, and it was sort of taught to me to do that. But then the question I always kind of asked myself is I was just like, look, if, if I want to build a team and I want to get people to the point where they have a self-sustainable desk and they have— they know exactly what they're doing, I need to teach them that. I need to teach them how to do things because, you know, I do believe generally in giving people growth opportunities and stretch opportunities to go and try things and do them. But I think you need to teach a core level of everything before they go into those situations that they're probably not ready for, so they at least feel like they've got the toolkit to do it. And I found those one-on-ones was a really good way of doing it. And, you know, at the start of someone's career, for the first 4 months, I'll meet with them every day. First thing in the morning to talk about the day before and to go through the day ahead and kind of give advice on the situations. And one of the big benefits I found of that is people would feel confident going into situations that were new to them because they'd gone through it with me. They talked through that booked call they had with a client, and then I'd gone through, hey, look, I think this might be your objection. You might have this, or what happens if this happens? And I found the value of that was next time it happened, they felt more prepared. And then it also cascaded as well with the senior and principal people in my team who went through this would do the same for the people around them. They'd hear someone in a situation with it and they'd be like, I've got this call with this client. And I'd hear them give the advice I gave to them at some point before. And it became a very natural process in the team where, you know, it made sort of some of the time I had to spend on people less because people were passing the same messages and the same teachings across that I'd said to them.

And just walk me through, because I think this might be helpful for people. So if I'm in that early stage in your team, maybe regardless of experience, you still might have a lot of face time with me at that early stage if I'm embedding in your team. Like, what, like, what, what does that sort of sound like? So at the end of the day, so did you say each morning we'd have a bit of time with each other? What were we saying, like 15 minutes, 30 minutes? I know it might vary, but typically like, yeah, how much time, and then what are you asking me, like, how did yesterday— what, you know what I mean? I'm sure you've got, you've got it a bit more specific.

Yeah, yeah. Um, so when it's the, the twice a week, there'll be 30 minutes twice a week. When it's early in their career, it will be 30 minutes on a Monday, 30 minutes on a Wednesday, and then probably 15 minutes Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, uh, where there's, there's a little bit less to go through. Monday and Wednesdays, we will really deep dive into some stuff. And it'll be stuff around like, you know, how did, how did you stick to the plan yesterday? You told me you wanted to achieve this. How did you get on with it? If you didn't do this, what got in the way? Okay, how did you handle that situation? How did the calls you go through yesterday? What did you learn from these conversations? What did you learn from that? What are the candidates you're working with? Show me what— tell me why you're working with this person. What makes them a great candidate to you? And silently checking that, and then also giving them a chance. And this is a lot of the teaching I like to giving them a chance to see my thought process of like, okay, I like this person for this reason, this reason, this reason. Okay, who are the companies that you're going to work this candidate to? Okay, tell me why. And then again, show them your thought process of, look, this is why I would choose these companies. This is why I think they'd be a fit. And I try to use those chances to sort of almost impart my knowledge from showing them how I go about things so that they start to think the same way.

That's class. The key part there I took was I think a lot of managers would go straight in with what they think, but what it sounds like— and I'm sure you've had to learn this— is like, ask and then tell, right? So how, like, what company is going to— what, talk me through that? And you go, cool, this is sort of what I'm thinking, how do you think about that? Yeah, so like all those questions, they're really smart questions. I appreciate you Um, sharing that, that's really good. What about— how does call coaching fit into this? I know, like, this isn't something that everyone does, which I think is wild. Like, has that been quite impactful? Would you spend a lot of time with that? How helpful has that been?

Yeah, I, I think it's one of the most important things to do. Um, again, it's— again, it's very much based in my first year in recruitment. I got a lot of call coaching, um, and I find it immensely helpful. Um, because I, I always think you just don't know what you don't know. And you get taught objection handling, you get taught all the basics, which is very, very valuable, but the real world doesn't always come at you in straight lines, and you have to adapt to the situation. And I think where it's been really helpful for me is when someone's had an objection or something's gone away that is just a little atypical. And again, it gives me a chance to, to hear what they do and be like, okay, how would you do that differently if you'd have this conversation again? And then hear what their thought process goes like, and then be like, look, this is how I'd handle it, this is what I would say in this situation. And then see, okay, how do you feel about that? Do you feel like that suits your style? Because again, not everyone is going to have the same style, even when you're selling on the phone. I'm like, would you feel comfortable saying that or going down this route? Okay, no. So let's work on what we could do. And you almost kind of handcrafting a sales playbook that suits their style in those sessions. That you can't do in kind of group training sessions because it wouldn't really work. And I found a value in that, and I would always recommend, and I tell my managers to do it with their, their team as well. And it's, it's really been something I've enjoyed doing. I've seen a lot of rewards from.

Yeah, that's, that's brilliant. Um, have you got any— because I feel like this is one of the funnest parts, even though I'm sure there's been plenty of challenges— have you got any stories that you're really proud of that, you know, people have been part of this journey, do you know what I mean? In terms of like they've been with you, now they're doing this, like, because it sounds like you've really worked on this, you've got better at the coaching, you spend a lot of time and energy on it. Is there any story that brings to mind that you're really proud of? Because I think this is one of the coolest things about going on this journey is, you know, someone joining you and now they're like here and they maybe were here.

Yeah, I think, I think for me there's, there's a ton of them that I've loved and The, the probably the best example I would have would be someone who was my first hire, um, into the team, who I knew before, um, also, also an English guy. And he was kind of at that 11-month mark when he joined me, and he had every raw skill you could want, I think. Like, genuinely, I describe myself as lucky, um, because he made my journey as a manager significantly easier because I had a right-hand person that I trusted. Implicitly. And I remember going on conversations with him, and he would do things, he'd be like, he'd ask me to listen on his calls, and he'd want the feedback. And his growth in that first year where he had a good performance, he then was in the top 3 the year after, throughout the year after that, he was second by a little bit. Then he got top villa last year, and I remember being sat in the, um, in the, the award ceremony with him, and, uh, I looked at him and I went pretty cool, isn't it? And you could see the joy that he'd won it. He'd finally won it this year. And I think that was just a cool moment for me because I remember being sat in the rooms and I remember, you know, in the middle of COVID we had, we had an office in the UK, a bunch of us working in there. And he used to message me, be like, hey, can we, uh, can we come in today, um, so that you can listen to a few calls I'm making? I just want some feedback on them. And now I hear him do it and I see him in the office and he's constantly giving people advice. He mentors people left, right, and center. If I ever need something, he's probably already done it before I even realize if I'm not there. And it's been a journey which I think has been great for him, but he's also made my life significantly easier. And, you know, seeing him win that Top Biller last year was an awesome feeling.

Yeah, that's class. Great story. Honestly, I just see it time and time again. Like, yeah, the best people are just so committed and willing to get feedback, wanting to improve, and that really doesn't stop. And that sounds like such a great example, um, of that. What about then this— I know you said sometimes it fluctuates, but the 20% on the strategy side, like, curious just to hear a few things. So what have you seen play out this year? For a lot of companies, it's been challenging in different ways, but like, what have you seen this year in, in your markets? What Has there been anything that you've been surprised that's maybe like stopped working? I don't know, like how would you feel about this year? What have been some of the interesting trends that you've noticed?

Yeah, it's been a unique year, I feel like, in some ways, in that I think a lot of things have stayed very, very similar, but I've found that there has been a little bit more of a reluctance to hire than in some previous years. And that's where I would really double back to kind of the process and, you know, the control piece a little bit. And I think that has been very important. And I've spent a lot of, I guess, my time this year making sure that that is being followed and, you know, working as, you know, a senior leadership team to make sure that we have this mapped out and that if people aren't doing it, okay, how can we help them get that part of the job down? Because I think when things are a little bit more difficult and there is a little bit more reluctance and challenges, That's where we need more control and more influence over a situation to be able to make sure that things are going in the right direction. And that's probably been the biggest one I've seen this year, is that. And then, you know, there's always the kind of natural ecosystem of a lot of the markets we work in are startups. So there's always going to be that kind of natural churn of clients where some don't work out, funding is running short, so they're not hiring, and you always have to kind of rebuild that. Um, so I think there's always a natural circle and cycle of that.

Yeah, I think that first bit is really interesting. I've definitely heard that as well in terms of just really making sure that the time that your team is spending on X job, the energy they're putting into it, it's in the right places. And when we look at the pipeline, how much of that would we put in the A job category and the— however you do it, right— the gold job category? And we've got the processes outlined versus not having any of that in place, because that's when your pipeline can be reduced massively when we start looking into that. And yeah, just heard it time and time again this year, being, um, yeah, messed around, um, a lot of the time. Like you said, like having those in the process dialed, um, and agreed, and that commitment is key because you'd much rather have less jobs on the board than but know the process, what's happening there, it's these things, versus way more and like way less of that happening.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's all about quality, right?

So what, uh, and then what are you like, what do you feel like you and the team, like if I was on your sales floor or maybe some of your like quarterly review meetings going into the end of the year, like what, what are you guys really doubling down on? Like, what are you really remaining laser-focused on going into next year that you deem important, that you're putting emphasis on, that you're championing internally?

Yeah, a lot of what we're really focused on is this part of things right now. Like, we are trying to formalize pretty much every process that we have and, you know, making sure that it is concretely down and that it works for every market. Because one thing that I think has always got to be a little nuance is like, you know, we work across different areas of the US and like, you know, my team in Boston and my team in Michigan, it is not the same world that they recruit into. And we're trying to make sure that every single one has, you know, the process mapped out and everything is put down in a structure so that we can, you know, make sure that's replicable as each of these teams is growing.

Yeah, I love that. And then to close us out then, how would we— I'm sure you've seen it, like you've got friends in recruitment, like there's been a real definitely increase in the number of, uh, recruiters taking their career to the US. Like, how would you sort of describe it to someone? So like, if I— again, like, we were down the pub, I was like, Ash, mate, looks like you're doing really great things in the US. You know, I've always thought about going to the US. Like, what's it like? Like, how would you describe it to me?

I mean, I always tell everyone they should do it, um, because it's been an awesome journey and I've had a ton of fun. And living over here is, is an amazing opportunity that you know, I don't think when I was younger I ever thought would be possible. So I always recommend that. But I would always just say that, you know, look, it's— don't listen to the narrative that it's easier, is the one I always advise people, because it isn't easier, it's just different. And that's just the reality of it, is like, you know, it's got its own challenges. The fees are bigger, which is, you know, I think sometimes people equate to the fact that, hey, I do 20 deals in the UK, if I do 20 in the US, it's going to be a lot more revenue. But the work that goes into that is a little different. And I always say, look, just, just go over there and take into kind of the core values that you have— the speed, the urgency, the things that you do really well— but just be really open to learning from someone or people who do the market and listen to the nuances and don't treat it the exact same. You know, find yourself a mentor, find yourself someone who knows. Like, you know, I, I joined them, some were 8 people, and I worked really closely with Chris, our CEO, and he taught me more in the first 3 months than I could ever imagine. As you know, I went in maybe a little naive to some of these differences at the time. And I think my advice to everyone is always just find yourself a mentor and someone who can teach you those differences, and then combine it with what you do well, and you'll have a great career.

Love it. Ash, thanks so much for joining me. I think it's been, yeah, really cool to like see the, like, you know, learn more about you. And when we prepared for this and the journey that you're on, and yeah, really excited to see where you are in another couple of years' time. So yeah, thanks a lot for joining me on the pod.

No, I appreciate it, Hishem. Really enjoyed it. Good to be here.