Building a Business That Doesn’t Rely on You: Emily’s Lessons From WOW Recruitment

We got rid of 5 people in the space of 2 weeks at one point. Hard part is putting the performance management stuff in place, putting expectations in place, having the hard conversations, and we downsized after we did this. I'm one of the people that believes that you do need to have A players, B players, and C players in a team. Whether it's a sales meeting or a client lunch or going out and doing a quarterly business review when talking strategically with a client around how we can be more of a talent partner to them and how we level up their talent function and their growth plans, it's my happy place anyway. My ultimate outcome always was to look after the clients and ensure I protect those relationships because you work so hard to get to a certain point. In the early days, we had nothing, so it's like building everything from scratch. At the time, you feel like the world's ending.

Emily, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Really excited to dig into this. So you've recently hit 8 years in business. And we're gonna dig into the important lessons on this 8-year journey so far. When we prepared for this, we've sort of ended up discovering, like in a lot of businesses, although it's always been called Wow Recruitment, it's definitely had different stages. Yeah, the business may have felt different. And I do think that is one of the cool things about entrepreneurship, is like even though your business can have the same name on top of the door, it can have very many different lives, which keeps me optimistic. Because if I feel like we're not quite where we want to be, I know that we can get to where we want to be. It's not always going to be this way. But we've sort of drilled it down into almost like 3 chapters, and we're in the third chapter currently. Chapter 1 being like basically leading up to COVID, um, mainly yourself with some other people in their business, but it was very like centered around you, your business partner, on how you're performing billing. Then we have more, uh, chapter 2, which also coincided with you becoming a mother. And really, if we're being honest, facing the facts of like, right, actually I'll probably get in the way a lot here. Um, you've built more of a team, we had the COVID boom, um, and there's plenty of lessons in there. And then now really where you are as a business, like the sort of phrase that you said to me a few times is how can you're really thinking about how can we build and grow the enterprise value of my business. And you're trying to do that in a few different ways. But business today, let me know if I get any of this wrong. So org chart currently, obviously you have yourself, you have a general manager, finance manager, external marketing. You've got 3 team leads, so team of 18 currently, 11 billing consultants, um, on track to do 8 to 9 million, um, in revenue. Current split, 8% perm, 20% contract. And I've also got here like 10% of revenue is actually in the US market as well, which is pretty cool. And remind me, your world— so you got— I have got it written down here, but you've got marketing. What is that, under professional services?

Yeah, sales, marketing, and business services.

Awesome, love it. So let's sort of, I guess, take a bit of a step back in time then. So how would you Like, if me and you met before COVID in those first couple of years, how would you think you would describe your business? Like, if me and you were just chatting and I was like, oh, like, how's the business going? Like, how do you think you would describe it looking back? Do you think that early period, it was scrappy?

It was full of— it was fun. I think the biggest word I would use to describe that period of time for us was just so much fun. There's a lot of energy, a lot of passion. I was super naive. I was 22 years old at the time. But I think that served me to an extent. But I think the reason why we had so much fun and there was so much passion and energy is because we had absolutely no idea what we were doing. And that's why I described it as scrappy. Like, we were doing well, but doing well despite ourselves in a way. It was the energy that we brought to the table that I think people wanted to get around. I had a couple of founders in the early days, and we had good energy amongst us, and people wanted— it became magnetic. People wanted to be part of it. And as imperfect as it was, we were good people. So we were surrounding ourselves with good people, having fun, enjoying the day-to-day, and generally just doing what we love to do, which was recruitment. And we didn't have the structure around it. We weren't building anything. I don't, I don't personally think we were building anything with like a lot of scale in mind, but I think we were building it and enjoying the process, which in itself is what people were drawn to. In those early days.

You can, like, you can achieve a lot with energy. Yeah, passion. You can, can't you?

You can get so far, like, but there comes a point where it, it stops working. But I think that's why I say we were doing well, but not due to structure. It was due to just pure energy.

And like, you can be like honest here, because I feel like when you do, when you start a business— like, I speak to a lot of people, and I think it's really been challenged over the last couple years with technology, AI. But I think when you meet people and you're like, yeah, I have a business, like, the first thing that people often say is like, how many people do you have? And like, what are your big goals for the business? Typically. And I think sometimes that can be a bit of a challenging question to really think about for founders. Like, what actually type of business do I want? and they can end up doing things because they think they should. I've got a business, I should be growing it. Again, if I was to speak to you in that early period, like, did you have a sort of goal in mind? Did you know that you wanted to grow, or did you just have that passion and like just one thing leads to another? It's like, right, we've got a lot of roles on here, let's bring some people in, do you know what I mean? Like, what, what were some of the sort of— did you have a big goal around the business or not really at that stage, you think?

Yeah, I think myself and my co-founder Daniel always knew that we wanted to build to scale. I don't think it was— well, I know it was never meant to be a lifestyle business for us, but I don't think we knew how to build for scale. So I would say that it was more around building legacy, more around building something that outlasts us. It's why I've always put such an emphasis on brand and brand equity and building something that matters. And so it was always around building something that could outlast us, but I don't think we actually knew how to scale in those first few years. And so that even comes back to, you know, when you ask what the early years were like, it really was— I was a founder-biller. And I think my biggest lesson from that period was, you know, if you're not building yourself out of the center of all of that, you're just building a job for yourself. You're not actually building a business. And so I knew I needed to come off the tools and off of the billing and everything to build something scalable. But I didn't know how.

But that is what you wanted?

Yeah.

Or like new? Yeah. Okay, because if you don't want that, that's fine, right? If you are in that— if you are— it is very centered around you, you might have a good lifestyle, you're earning good money.

Yeah.

It's just about understanding what you want. Definitely personal.

Yeah. And I've met founders over the last 8 years who have wanted it for lifestyle, and they own great businesses and do great things. I think Yeah, for me and Daniel, it was always around building something big.

Just in this period, I'm curious how, like, looking back, how did you, like, sell the business? And what I'm asking here is, like, how much experience did you have before you launched WOW?

In recruitment? Yeah, 2 years.

Yeah, okay. So the reason I'm asking is because I think sometimes when I do speak to founders sometimes I've had 2 years experience, sometimes I've had more. And it can be a bit of a challenging period, like, do I be brutally honest and tell Emily, this hiring manager here, that it's just my little startup, it's just me? Um, should I be authentic about that? Should I try and sort of make it look like we're bigger than we are? Uh, should I leverage my track record when I worked for a different company? 'Can I do that?' You do have to sort of figure out how to like pitch your business. What, like, looking back, do you remember like what did you really lean into? Do you think like, was you authentic about it? Did you find that people actually bought into that? It's sort of an interesting thing that people have to figure out.

Yeah, I, I'm happy you asked that. It's a very good question. I lent into being really honest about where we were at, and so honest to the point where I think I got a lot of my business because people were going, 'Well, she's 22 years old, she started her own company, she's obviously very ambitious. Let's just give a shot. I remember a lot of the meetings I was in, people like, let's just give her a shot. We expanded into the US market purely based on that notion. Who does she think she is? But let's just give her a shot. So I think I had a lot of confidence and I was so naive that people lent into me and decided to give me a chance. I guarantee I lost a lot of business because of it or didn't land deals because of it. I, I think age probably was against me in some areas and experience was against me in some areas. But yeah, I was definitely authentic about who we were, the size we were, how much experience I had, and people either bought into it or they didn't. Where the thing I think we did really well from the beginning is we built out a methodology around our process, and that's what Daniel, my co-founder, was very good at. He's like, right, I'm going to come to all your sales meetings and I'm going to watch what you do, and let's try and turn this into like a method that we can explain really well and pitch really well. And so we would sit down and brainstorm and workshop what our methodology was, and then we had a better sales process because of that. And that's how we won clients. In terms of how we won our people, I think that was the same. We're really honest about where we were at, and I think we— what we did well was our advancement plan we offered people and showed that we're really invested in growing careers, but also that we, um, had good systems and process around our sales process in that methodology as well. To better train others.

Yeah, that's smart that you did that. Yeah, because then you can really apply a lot of energy, passion to something.

Yeah, I— but I do think, I mean, as much as I can say there's things we did well around like the methods and the advancement plans and how we attracted both, you know, clients and recruits want to work with us, I think my biggest thing was my passion and my energy. I can't deny that.

It goes a long way. Yeah, but I love, I love it. I think it's good for people to hear, like, you didn't try to hide where you was at as a business, because I think sometimes people can be a bit concerned about that.

Yeah, I mean, there's an element of fake it till you make it, but I don't think that's in being untruthful about the resources you have behind you or the experience you have behind you or where you're at. I think that's around the confidence you show and how much you back yourself.

Do you know the, like, the reframe that I like on that? The fake it till you make it. I have it on a Post-it note on my desk. Is like, believe it until you make it.

Yeah, I like that.

Because you would have had the belief, right? Yeah. So it's like, just keep believing it until you actually make it happen versus like fake it.

Yeah. Daniel and I still talk about it now. We always think it's so weird. We never had a backup plan, but I never had any part of me that thought, what if this fails when we started? I didn't doubt it. I just think, yeah, we were really confident that what we were building would be successful.

So you kept believing that. Love it.

Yeah.

So if I'm listening right now, I'm in the trenches of that early period, do you think that sort of advice still applies that your business partner did, which was think about your sales process? How can you get a bit more organization? That's probably a good thing maybe people should consider if they haven't done that or haven't thought about that. I think that's probably— do you think that advice would still apply?

100%. Yeah. So I'd say in those first 3 years, the thing that I— well, I think if we— the way we started, I was a founder-biller, and I think a lot of agencies start that way. If you think about the nature of how an agency gets started, it's often somebody's done recruitment before, quite good at it, then you go out on your own. And so for me, that was my path. I was the recruiter, went out on my own, and naturally was the one building client relationships. I was at the heart of everything. So every deal that happened, I was in it. Every relationship we had, I was in it. And every fire that needs to be put out, I was in it. So I think that's— that takes you to a certain point where I think my biggest lesson was, was going, right, I need to make that transition now from founder-biller to founder-leader and actually take myself away from the billings and get the team— like, build trust in the systems we have, build trust in the people we have through systems to be able to replicate the revenue I was generating. At that point we were probably experiencing— we're experiencing 70 to 80% year-on-year growth. 80% of that revenue that was coming from me. So I knew that I had to create systems for what I was doing to be replicable and for people to be able to come into our business and be able to bill and generate revenue without all relying on you, on me. So yeah, the systems— I mean, I think there's something in having a really proven methodology around like your actual delivery, around your sales processes, and then also around, uh, I suppose the way that you would then have a consultant move through the business and have some sort of advancement plan. They're probably the first few processes we put in place.

Yeah, I think that's also important if you do want to scale, whatever that means to you, versus not. Because if you have that mindset, then you can outsource some of those tasks, or you can use technology to take on some of those tasks. Yeah, and you're gonna be able to do that effectively if you've actually thought about your systems, how you do what you do as well. Just curious, because I've got here— it might fluctuate, right? So for most part, it's like 90% perm in this period, 10%, um, contract or temp. I've got here revenue around like $2 million. I just wanted to ask, because especially because you had 2 years recruitment experience I'm assuming then you've had to learn the, like, the commercial side of the business. What did— was you tempted about spending money, do you know what I mean? Like, what— because you're earning some good money there, not loads of headcount. Yeah, you could have taken money out the business, you know, you was young, passionate, you could have whatever. So like, was, were you ever tempted by that, or was you quite disciplined with that? Did you have to learn actually I want to keep money in the business. I don't know, what was your experience with that?

I was very disciplined. I didn't take an income from the business for the first year that we had it. So I'd saved whilst I was in a recruitment role for the first 2 years working for another agency, and then for the first year of running WOW, I didn't take an income. And then for the second year, I took a small income. I think I took $50K a year, and everything else was reinvested back in.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, so that's why I say our growth path hasn't been super steep, but it has been one where the scale has been in mind. Otherwise I would have taken the money out, but we've always reinvested back into growth and hiring and building headcount and building infrastructure for people and creating conditions for growth.

And what, like, by that point, what was your exposure to running a business? Do you know what I mean? Because it isn't just doing deals and going up to the fee board and like, there's a lot, there's more to it than that. Is that where your business partner helped in the early period, or—

Yeah, my experience was very minimal. I, pre-going into the recruitment industry, I had been in more of a sales environment where I probably got more exposure to the ins and outs of running of a business. But no, I definitely hadn't ever understood the finance function of a business or the marketing function or the operational side of things, even people management. I mean, I'd led people, but I didn't really understand the intricacies of it all. So this was all brand new territory for me, and that's why I say I was a founder-biller. And I had to make that leap into founder, leader, and build myself out of the center because I was building myself a job. I was just becoming a really good billing manager, and I needed to become a business owner. And that was a bit of a reality check around year 3.

So let's go into this, this other period then leading up, which also involved COVID, also involved like the boom period, because I got here let me know if I'm getting this wrong, but like at one period you got up to like 22 headcount, revenue like, you know, circa $5 million, still very like flat org structure in around 2023. I guess what I wanted to ask you first, obviously clearly you was very aware of like maybe where your pitfalls were, where your gaps were. So what were some of the— it might have just not been like a logical like steps that you took, but like what were On reflection, what were some of the first things that you felt like you did that started taking you towards that founder leader versus founder builder? What were some of the first things that you did to work on that?

Yeah, so I think a real catalyst for that entire transition was the fact that COVID sent us into lockdowns and most of our team were on stand down. So we had the space, the breathing room, I suppose, to really think about working on the business versus working in it. We lost all our roles that we were working on in a matter, in a matter of weeks. And so all of us working from home, I had more space to step back. And I think there's a lot of beauty in taking time away from a business. I've experienced that more recently through maternity leave, and that's had its own benefits. But I think in that moment, being able to step away meant I could become a bit more strategic about what the plan looked like. And I made the active, conscious decision that I was going to step away from the amount of billing I was doing, start to pass accounts over and invest in infrastructure. So we developed our training program. That would support hiring rookies. We went down the rookie model, and we had so much success out of the rookie model. I mean, our two top performers this year, Jacob and Shona, are both products of our rookie model. We hired them during that time and taught them recruitment from scratch. I think it was an expensive model to run for the amount of people that didn't work out through it, and I take a lot of learnings from that that I still use now. But I think at, in that moment, the rookie model was what enabled us to start to build infrastructure because, because of it, we grew our training modules, our training programs. We started to build performance management metrics and get really clear on our KPIs and get really clear around like what good looks like and how you can get ahead with us. We got clear on our advancement plans within the organization, so how you can get ahead. And then because of all those things, it meant that we then needed to get really clear on like how we go out to market and what that looks like from a value proposition perspective to our clients, the way we then deliver, and to make sure that delivery is consistent across all our consultants, to be able to replicate the revenue I was generating but at scale.

Was a lot of this stuff just in your head, do you think?

Yeah, yeah. So that whole process was trying to get it out of my head onto paper, which is so much harder. It sounds—

is that just step one? Well, is that just how you try to do it? Like, right, how would I do this? How, how did I win? Like, how do I win clients? And just—

yeah, yeah. So it just was going through every aspect of what we do as recruiters and starting to form a process around it. We call them standard operating procedures, SOPs. Just building SOPs gradually. We've done a better job of that now, but in the early days we had nothing, so it's like building everything from scratch.

How would you— I know you said you're still very much building that now, but like, if, if I'm listening to this, I'm like in that stage, like, how would you start building them now?

So we essentially had the model that we would write down the process of exactly how it's done, step by step. And then it's, it needs to be simple enough that anybody can read it and be able to take that and run with it. And that needs to be followed by all. So once you have the step by step, we have a template for how you'd formulate an SOP, and then it needs to be followed by all and embedded into the ways of working. I think an SOP on its own is one thing, but it needs to be embedded into your workflows and your ways of working from there. So then your systems, like your tech stack, need to support that flow. Nice as well. Just anything that you repeat, anything that you do over and over and over again, the business should have an SOP.

Yeah, no, I agree that, yeah, I'm, I'm a big advocate of, of those. I said to, um, Adrian actually yesterday, because like that, that's how they've gotten, you know, people supporting them from the Philippines. You have to have those things in there.

Yeah.

Um, so me, I'm just a big advocate of Google Docs. I use Loom a lot for those types of things.

Nice.

Because with AI now, you can record yourself doing what the task, and then with a click of a button, it can create the SOP off the video in like seconds. Yeah, it's so good.

Oh my God.

Because before, yeah, because before you'd write down the step by step and these things. What we do, and because I leverage, I have, um, freelancers that have worked with me for a long time that support me in the team and I've plugged— her name's Carla— into the guys, and if they want her to do anything for them, then they have to have the SOP, those types of things. So that's sort of how we've done it. There's some great tools out there now. So anyone listening, like, yeah, because again, the options are, okay, you may have employees, but even if you don't, technology would be easy to implement. That's why this is so important.

Yeah, for sure.

How— I don't know if you're still very much going through this now in this chapter, but obviously you said a lot of the revenue was tied to you, your relationship. How does one go about leaving, like, doing that in the right way? Do you know what I mean? Because did you run into clients going, I want to work, I want to deal with Emily? Yeah, do you know what I mean? So how did you— I guess there's some mindset stuff in there, relinquishing control, but how did you actually approach that tactically? Like, did you start saying so-and-so now is going to be your point of contact, or did you start organically bringing them to meetings? Maybe, I don't know. Like, talk to me a bit about how you started actually making sure everyone wasn't going, well, how come Emily's not working with me? Like, I want to speak to Emily.

It was a gradual process. It took time. It's not like I came back and was like, right, I'm off the tools. It probably took me a whole year to come off fully. So over a 12-month period, and that's what I say, the time frame, because you've got to be quite patient with it. It needs to be done in a strategic way. My ultimate outcome always was to look after the clients and ensure I protect those relationships, because you work so hard to get to a certain point, you wouldn't want anything to go wrong with that. And so yeah, I think it's about having the right people in place. I made sure I only passed the accounts over to people that genuinely were really capable of taking it over and that I could take on the journey with me and use as a learning opportunity. So everything was a coaching opportunity from like the introduction through to the delivery. But I, in, to answer your question, I would have them on the account with me for a couple of months first, working on the background. Yeah, so working a role in the background, I would still probably be quite client-facing, and they would be doing a lot of the sourcing, a lot of the delivery side, and then they'd start being involved in client meetings and coming along to reviews and service meetings. And then from there, I would hand the relationship over with the client where I'd let them know, and you get pushback.

You would communicate it?

Yeah, then communicate that I'm passing the account over. I was quite lucky that a lot of my clients knew me so well they knew that I was trying to grow the business. So most of my accounts were founders or CEOs or people in quite senior roles who'd say, yeah, we totally appreciate what you're trying to accomplish, and they would move to the new account manager. I had some CEOs go, absolutely not, like, I will not move to a new recruiter. But over time they, they did because we were able to prove that we could still deliver a really good service through other recruiters. But it took a year. It was gradual. I just passed over one gradually because if I did all of it at once, my fear was that revenue would drop. And that wasn't a fear based on the capability in our team. It was that I knew that our systems and our process just weren't quite ready yet. And so that year was around building systems and processes that I could put the trust in our people to better deliver at the same level. It was just that our maturity just wasn't quite there yet as a business.

Yeah, sure. And what— I'm sure, was there some like painful moments along the way where you had to— that's the hard thing, isn't it? Because there probably would have been moments where you just wanted to jump in, solve problems.

I still have that. That still hasn't gone away.

Really? So like, I have maybe like people maybe email you or drop you a text, be like, oh, like, this has been really hard, or you had to— that's part of the process.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, there was times where things probably— I, I— someone said it to me, I can't remember who said it to me, but in my early years in recruitment, someone said to me, when you pass over an account to someone, when you're in that leadership role in recruitment, you can only ever expect them to do it at maybe 80% of what you would, and you have to be okay with that. And I remember thinking, what, 80% of what you would? As if you can accept that. But you I think as a founder, no one's going to treat anything with the care that you do. It's, it's, you're the business owner. So you do need to be okay just letting go of a bit of the control. And my biggest thing that I got from all of it, because yes, that did happen. I'd have clients call and say, this hasn't been delivered to the same standard that it would have been if you were on the account. But what I took from that is it's always a learning opportunity. Your people are a reflection of you. And if they're not delivering at a high enough standard, that is on you. And I just saw that constantly as a learning opportunity for that person, for me, and a time to train and a time to coach. So yeah, it was hard, but people— you have to let people fail for them to learn. So I think the biggest thing that we took from that whole transition period was letting go, letting people fail, letting them learn. And our business really leveled up as a result.

Yeah, I feel like it's just part of the process, isn't it? If you want to be less reliant on— like, that's just going to be part of the process.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, talk to me a bit about, before we sort of move on to the, the next stage, like, I know you said some of the— your best people now in your business came from hiring entry-level talent, but it felt like there was quite a lot of lessons around hiring people, not getting it right, figuring all of that out. So with with what you learned the hard way, like, what would you do fundamentally different if we maybe wanted to get to the sort of 10, 12 headcount mark? Maybe— I feel like there's always going to be challenges to get there, like, just completely without any bumps in the road, but like, what— is there anything that you do drastically differently, you think, that you feel like could have impacted you getting to that sort of next sort of collective team size a bit more smoothly, do you think?

Fire faster.

Really?

No, I think I, I, and this could be because I'm a female leader, I do think there's an element of that, but I have always been too kind in performance management because I try to see the best in people. I genuinely enjoy coaching and developing people, but I do think if I had defined what good looks like a lot earlier and became really clear on performance management metrics earlier, I probably would have had a stronger team faster. And what I mean by that is that I think the team that gets you to a headcount of 10 is not the team that gets you to a headcount of 20. And then again, it's probably not the team that gets you to the next stage. Or if we're not talking in headcount, even if we're talking in revenue, the team that gets you to $5 mil is not the team that's going to get you to $10 mil. And I think the people that you often start with are part of that like startup hustle and part of that scrappiness that we had in those early years and the people that are part of that fun and they might align on the values from a value standpoint, but there is a level up that's required. And I think my biggest lesson was getting clear on performance expectations to enable that level up.

And that would have looked a bit like, if I hire this person, this is what I'm expecting you to be at this point. Yeah, these are the sorts of things you need to be like non-negotiables on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Like, really just figure all of that out.

Yeah, so figure out what those— what success looks like in the first 3 months, the first 6 months. That's That's a big tell. I think you really know in the first 3 to 6 months and not letting it drag on too long. And then the other piece is around performance management, having metrics around what does success look like at every stage of the business, whether it be consultant, senior consultant, principal, team lead, et cetera. And when the activity or the performance is not there, knowing what your 3-month performance management actually even looks like to be able to start to make moves in the right direction.

I don't know if you agree with this, but I do feel like it's just something that you probably have to just build a bit of a muscle around in terms of like just being like, no, then they're not at it. And just once you've done a few of— you've done it a few times, it's just a lot more easier next time. I feel like that's been my experience anyway.

Yeah, but I also think once you have really clear standards in place, it does become self-policing in a way. So I'm one of the people that believes that you do need to have A plays B players and C players in a team. I know some people like, we're all A players. I mean, managing a team of A players, like, can you imagine? But, um, I think everyone plays a role. I do think you need A players and B players and C players, and I believe that you can turn B players into A players. Um, but I think when you've got to have majority rules, and if majority are A players, it does become quite self-policing. People will take themselves out if they're not rising to the right standards. And so the hard part, as you said, is putting the performance management stuff in place, putting expectations in place, having the hard conversations. And we downsized after we did this. So people exit the business and that happens and that's hard. And you go through it as a leader. And at the time, we got rid of 5 people in the space of 2 weeks at one point. At the time, you feel like your world's ending. But then after, what you're left with is a really high-performing team. An almost a self-policing standard, because if people felt they can't rise to it, they resign.

Anything to be said around— do you feel like you communicated it to the, the existing team quite well that period, do you think? I think that, that could be quite interesting. But how did you approach that? Was you very transparent around this is why this is happening? How did you sort of approach that?

Yeah, I have to say, I feel that transition for us as a business, we did manage well. We had a really tight-knit team off the back of that, people look to leadership to make the hard calls. And so we did make the hard calls. And I think, yeah, when we reflect on that, and I think the team would even say that that part, that period of time for us was probably our strongest point as a collective team in that we were communicating transparently. Everybody was on the bus with us. They knew why we were making decisions we were making. They knew it was about evolution, about leveling up as a team. And the people that were left off the back of that downsize knew what we were doing and were the foundation of what we've now built as a result.

So if you like relinquished a lot of your relationships, what, what was you then filling up your diary with? Because that's also a challenge, right? Before we get on to— I don't know, this might have coincided with when you did go on maternity, you started your family, and then, you know, was thinking about, okay, what's it going to look like when I come back into the business, me having time off? But Just before we go into that, or it might have come at the same time, like, what was you— because that's the thing, right? I think even now in, you know, we're all inundated with AI technology. It's like, okay, yeah, great, I can, um, I mean, I can give you your recruiters like hour, hour and a half back a day. It's like, okay, well, what they're going to do at that time, do you know what I mean? So what, like, if you were really working towards making sure you wasn't as reliant on, in terms of directly Uh, like, uh, relationships, revenue, like, then it's like, okay, well, what am I going to be spending my time on? How can I directly influence and positively impact the business? Like, what, what ended up filling it up then? Or what was you then focusing on? Was you trying to figure that out?

Yeah, no, I think you and I had this conversation before around you can get really distracted. My biggest challenge with the transition was redefining what my success looks like, because I think when you're in a recruitment role, it's so clear it's a revenue attached to you. And so 2021, 2022 for me was about really figuring out my place in the business and how I can add value. And that has evolved over the last 3 to 4 years. But when I first came off the tools, I had to really sit in that and start to go, okay, if my value is not the revenue, what is it? And so I started to focus on leading our recruiters and focusing on coaching and development. I did a lot of the training myself. I trained a lot of the rookies. I had projects within the team that I would focus on. I was still part of the client relationships, but at quite a high level. So I'd still go and be part of any service meetings, any quarterly business reviews, growing key accounts. I've always been a sales-focused leader, so I was still doing BD, still signing new clients, and still generating new business opportunities for us. I also started to look after the operational side of the business so I could build out the infrastructure in the background to support us through like our tech stack. I changed our CRM. And we moved from JobAdder to Bullhorn, I started to introduce AIs and automations and started to build out our marketing function. I was quite lucky in that sense that our co-founder Daniel wanted to dive deep into understanding the digital landscape. So whilst he was trying to understand paid campaigns, SEO, the content we needed across like socials and our website, him trying to understand how we could really tap into generating some sort of inbound funnel through digital, I was off trying to figure out how we could do consultant-led marketing, build my personal brand to leverage that in market, get myself on stages. I started speaking and doing quite a bit of public speaking. I started doing podcasts and also started to figure out our brand. We did a rebrand, came out the other side looking totally different. And so that was, that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that. And that's where we started to build our brand equity and get really serious about our marketing engine. I also focused on our finance function, bought that in-house. So previously we'd been using an agency, or a bookkeeping agency I guess you'd call it. I hired a finance manager and started to get clear on what our finance function could look like to support scale, and then just focus really on, um, the next stage of growth and strategy, and took ownership of my role as like a visionary.

Nice.

And think about the next stage. This was all pre-baby.

This was pre-baby.

Yeah, this was me really trying to figure out my role as a leader and how I could add value. My— I started to understand my strengths too. My strengths are like around the culture of the company, the external relationships, solving the bigger problems, not getting stuck in the weeds. I know now that I cause more problems if I'm stuck in the weeds.

And how did you discover that? Was that like, did you invest in like coaching, or I don't know, like, because that can be quite hard to really— you got to be willing to look in, in the mirror, haven't you, and really figure that out? Or how did you discover that?

I've always had some form of development on the side. So at the time, we'd been through a program through The Entourage. Have you heard of those guys? They're basically an entrepreneurial training program where you start to get really clear on how you elevate yourself from manager to leader to entrepreneur. So Daniel and I did that together We've also had coaches and advisors over the years, but yeah, done a lot of deep work to try and figure out where my strengths are and understand where I can add the value. And also just trying to do things people go, this is just not— stay out of that. Um, and divide and conquer. In the end, Daniel ends up taking marketing and finance, and I ended up taking operations, our whole people side of things, our whole recruitment arm. Um, And yeah, okay, nice.

So how would you— again, I know as you continue as a business it can evolve, but like, how would you categorize— if we were to categorize what you spend most your time on? Yeah, what does that look like now?

Good question. I'd say 40% of my time is spent on projects, like problem-solving projects where we're trying to move the business forward. Right now, for example, I'm working on a big remuneration review to try and stay competitive in the market. Around how we remunerate our people. I'd say 40% on projects and problem solving. The other 30% is probably spent on people development and coaching and looking after my leaders, but also focusing on initiatives around like advancement and how we get better internally. And then the rest is external.

External?

Yeah.

As a, like, client-facing stuff?

Yeah, doing things like this. Being out in market. I think if I had my, my way, I'd be more external, but we just have a lot to work on internally to get our infrastructure right, our strategy right, to be able to grow.

Yeah, I think I struggled to— and I, like, I think that, that 30%, which is today, I think that's probably always going to be one of the, the best ways that you can impact the business positively, I think, like getting the name out there, you being in front of people. Yeah, because I don't know if you agree with this or not, but being a CEO founder, like, it does help you open up doors, I think, personally. Yeah, unlike the client-facing front, like, you can still sort of— I was telling you when I sat down with Craig today, the way that he sort of viewed it was like just being a bit of like a quarterback almost, like you know, he's trying to help the business move forward, land things, and you know, that's a joint effort, but you very much played your part. I do, I do think that just massively helps you just be able to help the team as well if you're like in the trenches with those things and you're on pitches and you're seeing how it lands. And I don't know, I always— yeah, I feel like that's always going to be one of the best ways for you to positively impact the business, no matter the size.

I love it too. It's probably my happy place. Being with clients is my happy place. Being out at— whether it's a sales meeting or a client lunch or going and doing a quarterly business review and talking strategically with a client around how we can be more of a talent partner to them and how we can help level up their talent function and their growth plans. It's my happy place anyway. So the more I can do that— that's why I say if I had it my way, I'd be doing that all day long. Um, but I think it's how your team level up as well, because they learn from you. But also it's how you then go back and work on the right things, because you have a pulse around what clients actually want. And what's going on in the market.

So talk to me about— you can tell me if, if your brain worked like this or not, but getting to know you a bit, like when you found out you, you was pregnant, was part of like— I don't know, was being a business owner— does your brain straight away go to like, oh my God, like what, what's gonna happen? I don't know, you tell me. Like, because did that not come soon? Did that come soon after all the amazing things like we're starting a family, this is what we wanted.

Yeah.

Or was it very much quick to like, oh my God, like what, what the hell is going to happen when—

Yeah, my journey is quite unique. So, well, I think go back before I found out I was pregnant, we got that— I think I told you about this— we got interest, right? Yeah, somebody wanted to acquire WOW, and that rewired my brain because once we got that interest, whilst we didn't want to sell and we didn't go down that path, you do start thinking about the valuation of your business and whether you've built something that's got value for freedom and optionality, right? I think it's nice to know that if that comes your way, you have options. And so that had rewired my brain anyway. I then found out I was pregnant the first time and lost a baby. So I'd gone through the pro— I'd gone through everything without the team really knowing why I was moving in a certain way and why I was strategizing in a certain way. And leading through pregnancy loss is like a whole different ball game. But by the time I found out I was pregnant this time round, I'd had a year of operating in that way already.

Okay.

And then knew that I needed to bring on— I brought on an advisor. We started implementing, like, we just went— I, the 9 months I was pregnant with Ariana, I've never worked that hard. But I had a year of preparing for that. So my journey is quite unique in that sense that I got a taste for the changes that might need to be required beforehand. So that's why I say the next chapter really was 2023, 2024, and then the now. But it was probably the acquisition interest that kicked it all off.

Yeah, yeah, because it just really got you thinking, actually, hang on a minute. I guess like you said, it's Why would it— it's not a bad idea to like build something with that in mind, even if it is something I want versus not.

Yeah, because I don't— I mean, selling's not something, but previous to that we'd always said, oh, we could potentially sell one day. But I think in that moment we became really clear. I said, I don't want to sell. And that was also a really good moment personally to go, right, I don't want to sell, but what am I doing? What am I working towards? And recalibrate and go, right, what's the next chapter here? And it's more around building something that has legacy but also has worth, that you're building an asset. For me, I'm like, I'm building an asset. I'm building something that gives us freedom, gives us optionality down the track for our team as well, because some of our team have equity. So it's about looking after everybody long term.

So what were the things that you really made sure you got done before you went on maternity then? Like, what was on that priority list? I'm sure there's a lot, but like, what are the most— what are the most important things? If me and you having a conversation, it was like, speak to me in 9 months, I'm going to have all this shit done? Like, what is it that you really wanted to get nailed?

Yeah, so pre— if, if I think about the first phase of going, right, I was a founder-biller and trying to become a founder-leader and get the team to be able to thrive on the billing aspect without me. Now I was trying to get them to thrive without me there at all. And so for that to happen, I knew I needed other leaders in place to be able to drive growth and drive revenue when I wasn't around. So the first thing I knew I needed to do was build out a leadership team. So previous to this, we had a really flat structure. We in 2023 started building a leadership team for the first time. And when I say that, I more mean leadership at recruitment level. We had a finance manager and support on the finance side of things, but we didn't have team leads in each division and each vertical that we support. So we built out a team of 3 team leads, and I've learned a lot through that. I think that billing manager role quite hard to get right. It's hard to get right in that you want to make sure they're incentivized properly, their job description's right, they've got the balance right between billing versus leading, um, and that their team all feel supported. And the transition of people reporting into me versus reporting into leads is, is an adjustment. And so yeah, a lot was learned around how you actually structure a billing manager role in the recruitment industry through that period. But yeah, step number one was Building out leaders.

Okay, step number 2. What was then like top 3 things that you really wanted to try and get really in place or in a really good position then before you—

Yeah, so the second thing was around our USP and trying to make sure that when I wasn't around, people knew how to really sell our value proposition at WOW, whether that be to clients, candidates, or consultants wanting to join us. Everyone really understanding like where do we sit in market, why would people want to join us, why do people want to work with us, and how are we evolving meaning as a talent partner versus transactional recruiters. And so we spent a lot of time really trying to redefine our USP and get really clear on that. We call it our hedgehog concept. So it's a thing that we know we can be the best in the world at, that we're super passionate about, and it drives our economic engine.

And so why hedgehog concept? What's that about?

It's something that comes out of— have you heard of Jim Collins?

Yeah, I was out of the Good to Great.

Yeah, it's one of his frameworks. And so we, we worked on that, and that meant that people could could really drive that in-market when I wasn't around. I mean, I only took 4 months off, but still you need everything to continue whilst you take a bit of time out. And then the other thing that we worked on as well beyond that was around—

I was going to say, I think that second part, people really overlook that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, we're in such a saturated market.

Yeah, honestly, like, I think that's something that people really Like, if you— like, I think it'd be quite scary if you were to go into different recruitment companies and line up 10 recruiters and say, right, Emily, what do you do? Explain to me why I should work with you over the competitor down the road. The types of different answers that you'd get, it'd be quite— so I think that's great that you, you guys have really worked on that a lot, prioritized that. Yeah, I think that's overlooked. Yeah, I really, I really do believe that. So I think that's great that you— yeah, like, I think that's such an important thing. Like, do you actually understand why you're different, what your value proposition is? So I think, I think that's great that you worked on that because I honestly think that's, that's so overlooked. Yeah, by recruitment teams and recruitment founders.

Well, what was happening was we had consultants going out to, um, going out in market and being asked, why should we work with you over another recruiter? And they couldn't answer the question. And so if I was going to be taking time out, I knew that everyone needs to be able to answer that question. And I think we're there now. I think everyone's really clear on where WOW fits in market. And if you're ever asked, why should we work with WOW, people can answer that. And then the third thing that we worked on was around the brand equity piece and marketing, because I think when you get that lead gen and brand piece right, it's a real force multiplier for the consultants when they're out doing their BD. So my thought process was if they're out doing BD and working on, um, trying to grow their patch, because we've been growing in new markets. So obviously for a lot of the company we're focusing on doubling down on existing client relationships, but for some areas of our business we're really growing something from scratch. So for them it was about if they're trying to open up conversations, they've got the marketing and the brand behind them to really support that. So consultant-led resources was a big focus point.

Nice.

To have them, I guess, armed with that whilst I wasn't around.

Yeah, again, I think that's you guys growing up as a business, isn't it? How can we support our people? How can we provide a platform? Like, they're the sorts of things you need to be thinking about.

Yeah.

And like, how do— so that— how long ago is this now? Like, how old is your daughter?

8 months.

Okay, so it's still— okay, so that you had 4 months off.

Yeah.

Did you have 4 months off? Was it quite disciplined? Like, how would you—

I was disciplined. For me, I'm impressed with what I— okay, with how much I was able to switch off. I think in the first month you have to switch off because you're figuring out how to keep a human alive.

Yeah.

And I think, um, human nature is quite powerful in that your hormones mean like you don't really think about much more than just trying to keep a little baby alive. The female anyway. So the first month I really was off, and then from the second month I started doing one-on-ones with my leadership team again and supporting them. So I was in the background. I was always virtual. I stayed at home, but I started doing my meetings again.

And did you feel compelled to do that? Like, was you drawn to it after that? Maybe that month, I don't know. Was you like, was you looking forward to doing that, do you think?

Yeah, yeah, I needed it. I, and, and I came back after 4 months by choice because I wanted to come back. I'd originally planned for 6 months 2024 was a hard year, being totally honest, a hard year for recruitment in general for us. And I, I know a lot of other founders in the Sydney market felt the same. So December, our performance really dropped off. January, it really dropped. And I was meant to wait 2 more months to come back, and I thought—

no, that's this year.

Yeah, yeah. And I just thought, nah, I'm coming back now. Let's just make sure we have a really solid start to 2025. So I came back early because performance was dropping. It always does so around December and January for us, but also because I was, I was ready.

Yeah, I think it's just good to hear more women talk about it because I do think from the conversations that I've had, there can be a bit of a stigma around it. I think, I think some people have an opinion, wouldn't they? Like, oh, that's too soon, how can you do that? And then, so I think it's just good to hear how just have more people talk about, I think, is beneficial. Like, I don't know if I, I don't know if I mentioned it to you, but I may have mentioned it too, but I've— I met one female recruitment founder who, yeah, had, uh, two children the first time, had the like full time off, really, really struggled with it. She's very entrepreneurial, um, and she's like, there's no way I'm doing that again the second time around. Like, I just— I didn't— yeah, like, I didn't enjoy it.

Yeah.

And then she had a planned cesarean, and then like within like a week later she was on like the weekly kickoff call. That's what she told me anyway.

Well, I never stopped looking at anything.

That's what I mean. So it's just, I think, I think it's just important to hear it. Like, everyone's on their own journey with it, you know, because I'm sure you've run into your many of like, oh no, you shouldn't be doing that with your child. Like, no, you've got to do it this way, right? But it's down— at the end of the day, it's down, it's down to you, right? So I think it's great to hear how you approached it and what felt right for you.

Yeah, I think each to their own. Everyone's very different, everyone reacts differently. I don't think you could know how you're going to react once you bring a baby into the world. Some people say, oh, I'm going to have a year off, and then they have a baby and they go, right, I'll be back after 3 months. Or it goes the other way, they go, I'll have 3 months off, and then they have a baby and it's like, well, actually, I want to be off for a year. We've had some of our top performers plan to have 3 months off and they've ended up off for a year and a half. So I always say, you don't know until you're in the situation. And I absolutely love being a mum. I don't think there's any mum that would say anything apart from that. Absolutely love it. But I need my work to be me and I'm okay with that. And it's a series of trade-offs. Some days I'm a really great mom, some days I'm a really great business owner. But you just have to become— I think you have to sit in that and accept that. Accept it, yeah. And just know that it's not balanced. It's really not. It doesn't exist, I don't think. I haven't found a way to feel balanced with it, but I'm comfortable with that.

Each day I just choose my priorities and I like the way that you frame that.

Roll with it.

Like, some days you— yeah, I like the way that you frame that. So I feel it feels like that sort of coupled with— I can definitely relate, not as a parent, but like not being too hard on yourself. Yeah, because imagine that can creep in, can't it?

Yeah.

Oh my God, I'm not being a good mom, I should be there more. Like, it's just really not beating yourself up and really accepting actually, like, these are the sort of trade-offs I'm willing to make.

Yeah.

And I guess that can just evolve and change over time anyway. Like, you're still very much in the thick of figuring out.

That's right. When you said you want to be on the podcast, I'm like, well, still kind of figuring this out. And yeah, but I think a lot of people are. And I, or I think the fact that I started a business when I was 22 shows you that I'm someone that I'll do it before I'm ready. I'll, I'll speak about it before I've actually got it quite figured out. Cause I think there's a lot of value in the raw challenges of everything and the raw emotions of things not being quite perfect just yet, but being in a phase where you're trying to figure it out. Like, even developing our leadership team, like what we've been speaking about a fair bit, we haven't figured that out fully, but you feel like you're making progress.

Yeah, I saw that. That's another, uh, you might think how many Post-its I've got on my desk, but that is another important one I've got on there, which is like progress over position. Yeah, so like prioritize the progress you're making, and like if you're making progress, that's great. Don't worry too much about the, oh, I should be here, or I should be there. Yeah, it is all about that progress, and if you are making progress, and then that's great, like we're moving forward.

Keep taking steps.

Yeah, exactly. So give us like what, what's real priorities currently? So like you said, like we're still very much in, in the thick of this chapter, but you're really trying to focus on, you know, you've got that 30% that you're out there, you know, putting the brand out there, trying to possibly help grow the business, but obviously spending a good chunk on like projects, things that you feel are going to move the needle forward internally, externally maybe. But like, yeah, what are the, the real things now top of mind for you? Do you think about breaking headcount markers, or is that not really top of mind? Is it like, what are the most important things now that you feel like is going to keep helping the business progress, you think, and at this stage where you are today?

Yeah, so on the headcount thing, we do have a headcount marker, and I, I think this is appropriate to talk about because I think a lot of people would be in a similar position to me if they're at a similar size to me. But we know that we need a certain number of consultants to know that our business is profitable for the costs we have. Does that make sense? So the, the cost center we have, and, you know, rent, um, everything that comes into our cost of running the business, we know we need a certain amount of consultants to be in a really good position from a margin perspective, from a profit. So we are working towards a headcount of 14 consultants. At the moment we have 12, so top of mind is getting towards 2, which will definitely do this calendar year. We also working towards really growing our recurring revenue side of the business. So we're hiring a lot around the temp side of things and contract. We just hired a principal consultant in that space, which I think I told you the other day, and looking to add more headcount there. And that's a real focus point for us in unlocking that side to ensure that we're protected against economic conditions and that we have good sustainability around our business model. But also positioning ourselves as a talent partner, we're going back through and really looking at all our contracts and all our terms of business to make sure that we are positioned with all of our clients as a true talent partner and that our terms are favorable and that, you know, we're working towards retained on most occasions, otherwise at least exclusive. And we've come leaps and bounds in that respect. Like, it's very rare these days that we're signing clients on non-exclusive, especially established markets, but going back through and making sure that all is the case and making sure that we're adding value to support that. You can't say that you want to be a talent partner but not add the value to support that. So within that focus is building out our resource and our value adds as well.

Love it. So if I'm listening right now and I feel like I've just, I just keep finding myself in this scrappy period. Like a lot of people can find themselves— and I do have— I do have intentions and goals to get out of it. Like, that is what I want. Like, because that's really what you can speak to, is you're out of that, you're now really trying to continue level up yourself, the business, to get to this, to this next point. But if I'm listening right now and I am in that scrappy period, like, what, what is it? What, what would be your sort of go-to advice if me and you are friends and I'm in that period? Like, what are the things that you'd really want me to, to listen to, or you think would be really impactful for people? If they do want to get to maybe aim towards the point where you are now?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think get really clear on your vision and why you're actually doing what you're doing. Know your purpose around it and get good at articulating your vision to your people and to your clients and your candidates and your market as a whole. Once you have your vision, get really clear on what sets you apart. So that USP thing I was talking about before around how do you stand out in market, what is your value proposition. Once you know that, know where you're specializing and get clear on that. Don't get distracted by other shiny things. Know your specialization, stick to it. Once you have that, then start to work towards plans of 5 years, 3 years, 1 year. Once you've got the 1 year, that's your marathon, and then you work towards 90-day sprints. And in those 90-day sprints, know that you have big chunky rocks and you can't overcommit. I've made that mistake.

I'm so bad at that.

I could take on everything, and I give myself like 5 projects for a quarter.

I'm so bad at that.

And I sat down with somebody that I'm looking at at the moment to be my advisor, and she said to me, you know, a business of your size should only have 1 project per quarter. I was like, what? I'm like taking on 5 a quarter. So I think once you then know what you're trying to achieve for the year, chunk it down and be realistic about what you can take on. And then focus on that in 90-day sprints. And where I have been able to pull it all together and almost tie a bow on it in a, in a way has been then we have our sessions with our team every quarter where we talk, we bring it all up in a team setting. So I run a company update, the team leads jump up, they talk about their divisions, we talk about the wins from the last quarter, how we're tracking to our yearly goal. Then we talk about what's happening for the next quarter, and everyone has a forum to talk about what's been and reflect on what's just happened, reassess based on our whole year goal, and then talk about the following quarter and just break it down a bit. Because the year is a bit daunting for most consultants and most people within a business, but if you can turn it into 90-day sprints, it's a little more achievable.

Yeah, I think that's the sort of perfect timeline for these things. Love that. Well, I really appreciate your authenticity. Love— I think I just always love speaking to people that are just willing to take action, take that first step. That, that is very much me as well. So I always respect that in people. I'm just genuinely really excited. Like, I have no doubt you're going to continue to go in the direction that you want to, figure out this sort of mom entrepreneur dynamic, keep figuring that out. But really appreciate you just coming on, being honest about it all, and there'll be so many things there that people can learn from. So really appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on. I think I've told you, our whole team are massive fans who have been listening to you for years. So well done on coming to Sydney. Appreciate it.