Building A Recruitment Business From Nothing, How To, The Challenges & The Lessons with Daniel Burke

And I think those 4 months, there were times in there where I remember speaking to my family and be like, what have I done? I've left such a good business to do something that looked good but is really tough, and I don't know if I can do this.

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Daniel Burke, who's worked in the recruitment industry for just over 6 years. And for the last 2 years he's been building his own recruitment business called JLB. You've been on a, you know, not the typical journey in the sense of worked in, you know, one recruitment agency or however many recruitment agencies for 5 years, 6 years, 7 years. You got exposure to P&Ls, managing people, and then you started your own business. Dan was done with recruitment. He was ready to tap out after working for a business for over 4 years. He thought he'd had enough, but then he met the right partner and he started his own recruitment business recruiting in an industry he's never recruited in before— the sports industry. So what I really respect about this is that Dan has built his business entirely from scratch, and we really talk about how he's navigated that journey in these last 2 years. There's so much to take away from this conversation for anyone that is building a market scratch, it's building a business from the ground up. What have been some of the, the steep learning curves there that you've really had to get your head around, or anything you found difficult on that side?

The hardest bit about recruitment, in my opinion.

Enjoy this week's episode. Dan, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for, for coming in. Obviously I said to you that, um, intended on getting you on, but you've been subbed in, mate.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Privilege.

Yeah, I'm, I'm really looking forward to unpacking the— this last 2 years, I think, as we're just saying, like, you've been on a, you know, not the, the typical journey in the sense of worked in, you know, one recruitment agency or however many recruitment agencies for 5 years, 6 years, 7 years. You got exposure to P&Ls, managing people, and then you started your own business. Um, wasn't quite the case for you. So let's, let's do the, the career highlights and let me know if I get any of this wrong.

Sure.

But you entered the recruitment industry in 2017. Your world was support staff for alternate investment firms. Yeah. Um, so your first year was entirely focused on being a candidate sourcer, right? Um, then second year it was very much now you were doing BD, bringing your own clients, all of that. Um, and then you stayed there for another 2 years and even, um, helped them open up their New York office. But then over the last 2 years, you were— you actually thought about leaving the recruitment industry. Was not sure if it was for you. Uh, we'll get into it, but obviously you really— you just felt like what you shared with me, that you wanted to get into the sports industry. Yeah, right. You're gonna have to share with me like why you were so compelled to do that. Um, and anyway, you then thought, why don't I start a sports recruitment business? And this is where we are. So you started, uh, JLB in February.

Yeah, February 2021.

2021. Yeah, you're, uh, obviously, yeah, you had the first year.

Sorry, October.

October, sorry. Yeah, so So first year, second year, and this is what we're going to talk about the last like 2 years, this journey that you've been on. Um, so first year, uh, again, correct me if I'm wrong here, I think by the end of the year you had around 3 people. Yeah, 8 months of that were the first year was just you. Yep. Um, and you did just under 300 grand in the first year. Second year to date, you're on around 500k currently, your goal 700, and currently there's, um, 7 people including you, and then you're hoping to be around a team of 10 people by the end of the second year, right? And your, your world is the sports industry.

Yes.

Um, and I think all, all you do is, uh, it's all perm recruitment, right?

Yep.

And then you also do not just the UK, done US stuff.

Yep.

Also UAE as well, right?

Exactly.

Yeah. Here we are. So, okay, okay, let's, um, Let's first start with like, what was Dan's perspective on the common characteristics and traits that make up a highly successful recruiter in today's market? Let's start there.

Sure. So I feel like I've listened to a lot of the answers to this. Um, to narrow it down to one, I think it needs to be someone that's not afraid of challenging. And what I mean by that is challenging their internal team, clients, candidates on what good looks like. Because I think it's so easy for recruiters to come into a market and just do what everybody else does because it works. But actually, the ones that challenge their clients on what good looks like, how recruitment should be done, I think those become the future leaders and they, they're increasing the perception of what recruitment looks like. So a challenger. It's hard to be a challenger at the start because you're learning and it's all new. But as time progresses, I always like it when the new hires come and say, why aren't we doing this? Or we could be doing that better. So a challenger.

I love that, that's really cool. I think that's— yeah, I couldn't agree more. I really like that. So JLB, should we just also just, um, if it's okay with you— I know obviously, um, it's, it's part of the journey, right? But obviously worth noting that you started this business as, um, with Jackson Lombard's help, right? So, so they helped in the sense of like back office, like business stuff. Yes, then can focus on selling.

Definitely.

Let's just talk about— so you shared with me it took, uh, didn't build until January. So what's that, October, November, December? So 4 months, right?

Months. Yeah.

So what was like— where I'd love to start was like compelled to be in sport. Then I'm assuming you thought, well, well, you can tell me like where— when did you then arrive? Or like, actually, why don't I combine my, you know, really real interest in the sport with my skill set that I've built over the 4 years.

So to give you a bit of context, when I was, um, I just finished my time at Job Search and wanted to leave recruitment, to be honest, I was a bit fed up. I tried to launch a new office during COVID and just got, um, frustrated by how, how tough the job was, but also mentally it just drained me. So I thought, right, let's work in industry that I really love. And I've always played sport, I've always loved sport, and I thought, right, okay, I'm going to look at jobs in sport. What I soon realised is that I'd probably have to take sort of a 70% pay cut just to get in. And I don't know if my ego's too big, I just wasn't willing to do it. So I thought, as a midpoint, as a mid-ground, why don't I create a recruitment firm in the sports industry? And I didn't really see many people that were doing it. There was a few people that were doing it well, a few people that were doing it at executive search level, but I thought, actually, there's something here. So I got introduced to Jackson Lombardi by someone who used to work there, who used to be in recruitment, and spoke with Niall and James, who are the partners there. And they said, right, okay, what's the plan? What's the business plan? I said, right, okay, this is my idea. Wouldn't it be cool? And they said, yeah, it'd be cool, but does it make any money? So I had to put a business plan together, pitch them, pitch me to them really, because most business plans on the first day, they go out the window. If I look back to my initial business plan, I'd probably think, God, that's some awful ideas. The numbers are so off there, you know, what am I doing? So anyway, they believed in me to do that. And and we've sort of forged away in the sports industry. Um, yeah, now to a team of 8, just about to hire our 9th person to launch the US office. So, um, things are going in the right direction. There's clearly a need for it, a market there. Um, but I went into it blind. I didn't really go—

I didn't know anyone in the industry. No, like, no, like, candidate, like, all that. Because that's the typical story. Yeah, I think it's so— which I really commend, because most people— I was just interviewing someone that worked, um, has a cybersecurity recruitment business. Yes. Before they started their business, they worked in the industry for 3 and a half years.

Yeah, right.

So you have covenants, but then after the covenants, you can then, of course, tap into all those relationships. You didn't have that?

No, no. And I also had zero BD experience, and that might sound ridiculous. Yeah, after 4 years, because I was in such a great, uh, machine at Joss Search where they've got such a good reputation in the market, and a lot of our clients just came to us, you know, through referrals. So I was given things on day one, and maybe we'll go into sort of my first year as a biller, but um, I didn't know how good I had it. And then I went into the Wild West of what recruitment actually is and how hard it is to bring on clients, and I had to learn the hard way. And I think those 4 months, there were times in there where I remember speaking to my family, like, what have I done? I've left such a good business to do something that looked good but is really tough, and I don't know if I can do this. And, um, I think 2 years in, I'm still thinking, right, have I got it? But there's clearly something there, and I think it's now just about and keep going.

So let's talk about those first couple of months then. Sorry to bring you back to— yeah, it was obviously, uh, challenging. But like, talk— just talk us through, like, what did those, uh, you know, early, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 weeks, like, day to day, what did it look like? What was you doing? What was you running into? Like, what did those first couple of weeks where you started to have those, like, oh my God, like, great idea you know, sounded great when I started, had this business plan, but I'm just— I'm not— I don't feel like I'm, you know, getting traction. I don't know how you felt, but like, what did that actually look like? What were you doing in those couple of weeks?

Sure. So, um, look, no one knew who I was in sport and I had no connection. So the first thing I thought of doing is just try and meet people, just try and get in front of people and ask for their advice, because people love giving advice. You know, you play into someone's ego, play into someone's experience, and say, look, this is what I'm doing, this is the journey that I'm on, can you be part of it? And some people bought in, so I just got in front of as many people as possible and asked them about how they had got jobs in sport before and just used that time as like, okay, I need to figure out how this all works and what sport actually is because I thought I knew what sport was, I had no idea. So I had to learn from people that had worked in the industry and eventually someone gave me a shot and said, look, I like what you're doing, I've dealt with some pretty rogue recruiters before, I'll give you a shot for 2 weeks. And I managed to fill that job eventually, but it took me 4 months to get it. Before, um, I was 2 months in and I had one client where I got 3 offers. I got, I got someone to final, declined. Someone to final, declined. Someone to find, declined. And I thought at that point, I was like, I don't know if I can do this. This might not be for me. Um, I just had so much doubt because I'd come from billing quite good, quite well. Um, and then I was just like, I can't do this. I'm rubbish. I'm so rushed at this job. But anyway, 4 months in, I was like, okay, I've done it. I've done a role. I've filled— I filled a job. And then the momentum picked up. And then—

so let's just break that down a bit.

Yeah.

What— so I, I love that approach. What did that actually look like? So are you connecting with people on LinkedIn?

Yep.

You're sending them a message, sending people an email saying like, hey, you don't know me, my name's Dan. Yeah, I'm building this sports recruitment business. I'm looking for some advice on, you know, like how people enter the industry. Like, what did that actually sound like when you're reaching out to people?

Definitely. So I tried to meet 3 to 5 people a day if I could at the start, and it was as simple as that. People in sport were really nice. So I, it was more like, I'm trying to do something different in sport. I'm trying to redefine what good looks like in recruitment, and I'd love you to be part of that story and sort of give me some advice and practical advice. I wasn't asking for a job. I wasn't asking for an intro. Um, you get a lot of nos, as I said, but I just was really consistent with it. And as soon as I got in front of someone, I knew I could convince them to keep them in, in the front of mind and essentially come back to me if the opportunity came up.

So, so when you then spoke to someone, yeah, and they said, oh, Dan, look, happy to help, like, I think that's great, great what you're doing, what was— what did those calls sound like then? What was you like— what was the purpose of them? How did you approach them? Because you were saying You just said like you knew that as soon as you got in front of them, but like what was you doing on those calls? Were you saying like, you know, tell them a bit about your story, saying what you're trying to build? Like how did you approach those calls?

Yeah, I told them about my recruitment experience, and, and that might not sounded like the most fun topic, but I told them that I was going to go to New York, I was going to live out there, came back, had to come back because of COVID um, and I wanted to do something that I was really, really passionate about. So I just ran them through like what I typically do as a recruiter, because a lot of sports organizations have never used recruiters before. They just post an advert or they use their own network. So I had to educate a lot of people on what we do, like why, you know, it's not just like we find someone and send a big invoice to. It's like, okay, what actually goes into it or how much time goes into it? And also I played into a little bit of the sports industry isn't very diverse. You know, if you look at the senior leadership teams of a lot of the big rights holders and agencies in London, people have just typically moved from agency to agency or rights holder to rights holder. So my big thing at Joss Search, or the big thing across the agency, was to champion the hidden heroes, and I love that. And I thought, why don't we bring something like that into sport where we're trying to champion people that would be great for the sports industry but haven't got any experience? Maybe they've worked in a tech company or in finance, and we can pivot them into sport and they can make a difference. So, um, a lot of that was just sort of getting them to buy into my methodology and what I think about recruitment, how I'm going to challenge the wild card and be a champion for them as well, because there is always a time when someone, you know, turned on, goes on a Sunday, and they're having Sunday, Monday blues, and they're like, okay, let's see what's out there, let's give Dan a ring. And that's what sort of questions are you asking them then?

Because obviously you was also there to learn about how things work. So what, what things were you really trying to understand?

So understand how they've got jobs previously, if they'd used a recruiter, what they've done well and what they hadn't done so well. I think there's a lot of it in recruitment, there's a lot of we're better than you, we're better than you. But actually, I think there's a lot of recruiters that are good, especially in sport, that do things really, really well, and I want to know what they do well, because ultimately, if they're giving good service to their clients, we want to give the same to ours. So yeah, ask what they'd like, to ask what they didn't like, ask about the value in recruitment. Do they see any value in it? Um, a lot of people said yes, which is obviously why I sort of kept going. Um, and yeah, just, I was really honest with them and said, look, I, I haven't got much to offer you now. Um, but it's funny, 2 years later, I now have, and, and I've kept those relationships, and I'm really interested in people and their stories. And everyone's got a reason to, um, everyone's got a reason in sport to sort of brush you to the side because they get so many messages. These people get so many messages all the time. But, um, I got in front of a few people and they said yes, and then they told their friends and I met them. So, um, okay, yeah, it's grown quite organically, but it was really tough at the start, like really, really tough.

Was you like quite specific with who you targeted? Was you targeting people to speak to, having in mind that these people might be hiring managers, or was you like just very open on like who you would speak to? Would you target there, or—

I tried to meet people that had had at least 3 jobs in sport, so I knew if they'd had 3 jobs, um, and they've got kind of a good opinion of the sports industry and have maybe been in touch with a few recruiters. I didn't, I didn't just go for hiring managers or HR people. I did meet with a few HR people because I was interested in, you know, when they use recruiters, what do they like, what rates they work at, um, I nearly fell off my chair when I started to understand, um, what sports, sports organizations typically pay recruiters. You know, it's typically around 10 to 15%, and I'd come from an agency where, you know, really wouldn't work anything below 25%. So I was like, okay, so I've got no network, no clients, and the fees are really low. And I was like, what have I done here? Um, but I always believed that if you're paying someone 15%, you're getting a 15% service. If you're paying something, somebody 25%, you're given a 25% service. And that's how I pitch to our clients. It's like, okay, you can pay someone 15% to send you CVs, or you can look at us, pay us a little bit more but get a lot more back. Um, okay. So yeah, it was, it was—

so what— and then, because I just think this is super interesting and people can apply this to, you know, we— you'll hear people in recruitment talk about building a market from scratch and these things, and you built a business and a market from scratch. Yeah. And in the thick of it now still. So this is why I think this would be helpful for people. And then final thing on that, like, how did you then like map this out? Like, because you said 3 people, 3 people, uh, um, people that have had 3 jobs in sport. Like, did you just do like a proper solid like Boolean search and then just like— I don't know, how did you approach that?

Yeah, so at the start, day 1, I think I just was like, I'm gonna go after all the Premier League teams today.

I'm gonna go off.

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go after—

after such a big industry.

Oh, it's huge. It's huge. And I actually remember my second day, I got a nibble off a marketing manager at a Premiership football club. I won't say the name. And they were like, yep, we're looking to see more CVs. And I turned round to Nile and I was like, oh my God, I've got a role on. There's a role at a Premiership football club. I'm going to fill it. Didn't end up filling it because they probably just say that to most people and I got lucky. But look, what I tried to do with sport is I I looked at sports teams and leagues in the UK to begin with, sports agencies, sports marketing agencies, PR agencies, right, lists and lists and lists. And then the last side I looked at is big brands that have a presence in sport like Google and McDonald's. And I know they're big, big companies, but they all have a division, sports people. Exactly. So I tried to have a real variety of the type of people that I would meet because they'd see it from different angles. But yeah, I would map it completely out, have like 100 of each in those 3 divisions. Decisions. Um, and I just go after 5 to 10 people at each, each business and just try and meet them and then keep a record of who said yes, who said no, follow up. The people that said no at the start then said yes.

So, um, and then how long did it take you to have that first opportunity to potentially do your first placement? You said where it didn't happen, so that was within the first month?

Yeah, so I, I took on 2 or 3 roles within my first month.

Um, just by having that approach?

Yeah, just by having that approach. And, and look, I went and met, um, people in HR and I pitched myself And that was really, really tricky because it happens all the time. I mean, there's so many recruits out there that want to work in sport because it's glamorous, right? It's no— you're never going to struggle getting enough candidates in sport, but finding the best ones is really, really tricky.

What was the pitch then? What did that sound like? Because like you said, you haven't got a track record. Yeah, but you said to me that you really lent into this is who I am, this is what I'm about, this has been my recruitment experience. Yeah, is what you, you know, when we prepared for this, what it sounded like. But what did those early meetings sound like? Because I think that'd be interesting for people.

Yeah, so before I said, um, I pitched myself and did the big sell, I always ask them what they're doing at the moment, because it's very hard to sell yourself if you don't know where the challenges are. I think it's very easy sometimes to be like, we're the best, we do this, we do this. But actually, I wanted to understand, right, where can I help? Because there were conversations where actually, well, everything's going pretty well and our recruitment firm are doing a good job, and that's okay. I wasn't like, oh, gutted. I was kind of interested, what they're doing well, Okay, if they weren't— if they're not doing so well, what are you struggling with? Is it time to hire? Is it the quality of the candidates? Is the type of people you're seeing— a lot of people were saying diversity, not seeing very diverse candidates. And I— and then my angle, my sell-in, was that I've spent 4 and a bit years championing people that don't look great on paper but are great in the job. And here's an example of a few placements that I did. And although it was in a completely different industry, they saw my passion for that.

Love that.

And then when they bought into that, they were like, okay, 'Let's have a, let's have a shot. Look, the beauty of what we do sometimes is that you don't have to give any money up front. Just let me show you. Just let me show you.' So my, the most rewarding thing about what I have done in recruitment, or the placements that I've made, is when I've placed someone where the hiring manager said no initially. Those are my favorite recruitment processes because that is the value we can bring. Because I can send you 5 clones of the brief that you've given me, and that's fine, and you'll interview them, and there may be someone that interviews well and you offer them the job. But then they get complacent after 6 or 12 months and then they're looking again. Whereas if you give someone an opportunity that's so hungry for it and is so keen to make an impression, it's got their back up a little bit, they will stay longer and they will be a leader in that business because they'll be forever grateful that they got a shot. So that's the narrative that I try to go down, and a few people believed in it.

So, okay, so you— so in the first month, by having that approach, you were able to start working on some jobs, begin the show? And with that approach, did you have to start at 15%? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Right, I did.

But I think that's just good to share because you've got to start somewhere. And I think you have to, which we'll get on to. I think as soon as you have those like case studies, like track record, then it becomes a lot more easier, right? And this is what you was working towards, like just being given a shot. Also for yourself to be able to like prove to yourself that you can bring that same approach, um, and outcomes to this industry that you've never done before. So first month, and then, but then you weren't successful.

That was tough.

Did you really think about—

yeah, I just was like, can I do this? You know, have I just been in this bubble where like everyone succeeds? And it's such a good platform in my last business that I was like, okay, I've come out the bubble and now it's like I've started— I've had to start again. I've almost think that I've, I've been in recruitment 2 years, you know, sometimes that's how I think about it. So when I failed, I was like, okay, why did I fail? What could I have done differently? Reviewed it and then I just had to go again because my mentality when I, when I pitched JLB to begin with is that I will not fail. I refuse to fail. I have that mentality in probably all areas of my life where I do— I will not fail. And that comes at a cost, you know, mentally that is exhausting at times, but I just wasn't going to fail. So got back up, got another job on, worked it, and then it was just before we went away for like the Christmas break. And I remember standing in the pouring rain in like Oxford Circus and the third offer had been declined for this one job, and I was like, Just before Christmas. Yeah, just before Christmas. I was like, what's going on? Like, what's—

I can't do this.

Yeah, candid decline. And he just got paid. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. He just— he just got a pay rise before their January reviews, and he was like, I can't— it's not— doesn't make any sense to me. So, um, I learned the hard way, but I always remember those times because when things come to me now and things are easy, I don't take it for granted. And I try and— I try and implement that to my team because, um, when I've hired people into the business, they've often been hired in a time where things are going going really, really well. So that's all they know. And the first guy that hired Steph, he came in at a time where I had loads of jobs on, and it was great, and we were working with some Premiership football clubs, working with some really interesting sports teams. And, um, and then all of a sudden it took a dip, and he was like, what happens now? I was like, well, you've got to get back on the phone, you've got to go meet people. And, um, it's good to, to realize that this is a really, really tough job, but it's incredibly rewarding if you get it right.

So then 4 months, got your first placement.

Yeah. And then, so the first placement was in, it was in January, and then in February I made 2 deals, then March I made 3, and then I hired someone and we made 4. And, and to be honest, since then it's— we haven't blanked any. There's not been no blanks, which has been great. We've always built a minimum of about £15,000, and, and we've just basically grown the team as the numbers have gone up. Now I know sometimes that's maybe not the best way of doing things. I hadn't come from— I hadn't had any experience in doing this, and to be honest, I was given the freedom to an extent, to, Dan, if your gut's saying we need to hire one more person, let's hire them. The challenge, we can maybe come on to that, but the challenge about hiring, everyone wants to work in sport. We'd post a sports recruitment advert and one of our adverts got 850 applications, 850 applications. So there's no sort of, we didn't find it tricky to find good people, we just wanted to find people that were in it for the right reasons. The wrong reasons were, I just wanna tell my mates I work in sport, sports recruitment sounds really cool. Exactly, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] the right reasons are actually this industry needs big upgrade at this level, um, and I want to make a difference.

So, so let's just talk about— I want to go into like, Dan, the business owner journey, because I think that'd be really interesting. But just, just, just to sort of build on what we've just been talking about, which is really painting a picture of what you have to go through if you're building a business, a market from scratch, and how long it might take, the knockbacks you get along the way. So you then, like you said, from January then could you continue to build on that? So then from January, once you had that placement, did you do anything differently? Like, what, what did your pitches— and how did you then approach things? Did you then really make sure that you used that success that you've done? Like, how did you then approach things from, from that point? That meant just because you get one placement doesn't mean that it goes in that direction, right? So what, of course, what did you then change or do differently, do you think? Or was he really leaning into that you think gave you that opportunity to keep growing each month.

Sure. So naturally when you make, um, a deal, your confidence goes up. So when I was on my next pitch, or when I got in front of someone else, I was like, yeah, we just did this. And you can obviously leverage that. But I just think my mentality changed around, right, let's not be negative here. Things are still going to be tough, but I've got one person that I found a new job for, and I can leverage that, and I can talk about that story and talk about how I did it. So I think I wasn't doing anything dramatically different. I think just my mentality in every phone call, I just had a bit bit of like a swagger, a bit of like, I can do this, I can do this now, and, um, I can think bigger. At the start, I'm just like, I've just got to place one job a month, right? Just get— let's do 12 placements this year. That's what I thought was, uh, but at some point I was like— and I know that's really like, um, that's not the biggest goal in year one, but I was like, okay, let's just try and 12— find 12 people a job. And then I was like, no, let's think bigger than that. Let's think way bigger than that. Let's work with the 5 key businesses in sport and let's try and build out their marketing teams. That was my first, first thought. Um, but look, after my first placement, I just, I just had so much more belief in myself. And I'd just gone through such a rocky road in the last 12 months where I went to New York, had to come back, did it remotely, fell out of love with recruitment, started a new business from scratch, had a lot of nos. And then one person was like, yes, we're gonna hire this person. I was like, okay. I, I was near— I remember I was like, I was— got quite emotional because I was like, this is, this is so hard, but I can do it. And then once I'd done one, I was like, okay, game on here. I know what I'm doing now, um, to an extent. And, uh, and it just sort of flourished from there.

So what's been your most consistent, effective way of winning great clients then? Because like you said, you had limited BD exposure, like a lot of them inbound. Yeah, you'd spoken about— I really love just the approach of, you know, sharing people, uh, your story and getting time with them and these things. But then like, yeah, what, what's been like the— like, how have you really approached that that's worked for you consistently?

Uh, keeping in touch with my candidates. Keeping in touch with my candidates is key. And I've got people that have come back to me in the last month or so that I spoke to about a year ago, but they've been following my journey and they'll be following the team's growth, and now they're coming back to me. People that I've placed now are coming back to me as well. But, um, I didn't have any tricks or tips at the— like, I remember making cold calls in my first week, and I remember like shaking and be like, what is going on here? Like, this is so outside my comfort zone. But for a normal recruiter, that'd be like, why is he so— well, I was like, oh my God, what if they say no? So what if they say no? What if they hang up the phone? And then, um, and then I realized like, you're going to get a lot of nos doing this. And the reason that I did— I started JLB is because I knew there was something in me that just wanted to, um, see if I could do it, see if I could run a business, see if I could build something from scratch. And, um, yeah, it was, it was really, really challenging. But I just— I think my, my BD tactics were just get in front of people. If I can get in front of someone, I think I can get them to buy into to me. And you could call that overly confident or arrogant, but I just, I had to go into that thinking that, because if I didn't, then people would read that, people think, oh, this guy's not serious, or, um, he's not worth our time. So I just went in and was like, this is who I am, this is my story, you either like me or you don't, and then I'll meet someone else.

And you really leverage your candidate network and people that you've spoke— you've spoken to.

Exactly, exactly. And I told them about— I had to educate so many people on what recruitment is. You go into different industries like finance, tech, cyber, and there's loads of recruiters out there, and people know what recruiters do. In sport, a lot of people don't know what recruiters actually do because they've just got jobs through their own network, or they've just applied to a LinkedIn advert. So, um, yeah, a lot of that was not just finding a new market, being a competition, but telling people what recruitment is. And that's an extra layer. But if you can do that in a really successful way, then they're always going to come back to you because you were the ones that showed them the value in what you do. Um, yeah.

This podcast is proudly partnered partnered with Vincere, the all-in-one recruitment agency software that over 20,000 recruiters trust daily. We're also partnered with the award-winning 1UP Sales, the sales and motivation platform that enables you to maximize the potential of your teams. We love partnering with both of these organizations because they share our mission in helping you get the most out of your people and your business. You can get exclusive offers because you listen to this podcast and get up to 10% off the usage price forever. Use the link in the show notes to get your hands on that. Let's get back to the episode. So obviously we've spoken a lot about the initial period. Would you do anything differently now? So if someone's listened to this, they're week 1 like you were, you know, their hands are shaking, they're calling people, it might be a brand new market, or they've got covenants, they can't call their old clients, like, would you do anything different in those first, like, 90 days?

It's a really good question. Um, I think I could have thought bigger, right? I, I, at the start it was like, as I said, Premiership, Premier League football teams, right? Um, I, I— sports are global, a global industry, and there's so many sports organizations out there. And also, maybe I wouldn't have gone for the traditional sports teams and leagues. Maybe I would have gone for some smaller, like, sport tech companies or startups that needed help. So yeah, think bigger and don't think mainstream at the start. Often the most mainstream sports and the mainstream teams, often the trickiest to work with, which I've learned the hard way. So I would have looked bigger at the start. That's probably the main thing that I would have done. But to be honest, I'm pleased that I learned the hard way. You know, I'm pleased I made those mistakes. I'm pleased I had those times where I doubted it because it means now I know I really want it. So, um, it's— hindsight's a wonderful thing, but I don't think I would have done that much differently.

Just maybe think a little bit bigger, think bigger, and then maybe go to the, like, less obvious places. Yeah, whatever, like market you're in.

Exactly.

Yeah. So talk to me about, like, you hadn't managed anyone before.

No.

And now you're, uh, you know, responsible for the P&L, what you're spending, you know Yeah, um, and now managing a lot of people. Yeah, you're responsible for people's livelihoods.

Yeah.

So talk to me a bit about that, like what, what have you found hard about that that maybe you least expected?

So I played, I played a lot of rugby growing up and I was in a position where I was a bit of a leader and I love that part of my job, right? Um, but I'm actually not the most extroverted guy. I actually I really love my own space and love quiet time, and I'm not there banging the walls on a Monday morning saying, right, let's make loads of deals. That is my version of— I don't want to say hell, that's quite a strong word, but it's not me. It's not me, right? So, but I craved, I craved giving someone the exposure to recruitment that had never been in it before, because I think it's just been, it's been a brilliant career path for me. I had my doubts at times. I fell into it like everyone else, but it's given me so much. And I was, I was craving that opportunity opportunity to teach someone, train someone, and show them how it can basically transform them, their lives. In a— it sounds dramatic, but in a lot of ways it has done to me. So, um, I think, yeah, managing like 7, nearly 8 people when he starts in October, um, I've had to prioritize my own time more. Um, but having not managed anyone before, I think the good thing was the way that we scaled is we hired one person sort of 8 months in. Then I had 2 months with him before we hired the next person. So each chapter, I could give a lot to one person and then they'd become a little bit self-sufficient, and then I'd give a lot to the next person. Um, but it was really, really challenging, and I had to learn the balance between being someone's friend and being their manager. And that's the trickiest bit for me because I think I've naturally got this thing in me where I want everyone to love me, I want everyone to really like me. Um, but you can't do that in managing, I think.

Yeah, I, I'm gonna ask you on that because interviewed someone called Ollie who had to learn that. Yeah, which was like, he really had to learn about, um, the difference about being nice and being kind. Yeah, because you can be kind to someone, and being kind to someone and saying, hey Dan, I'm not sure this is right for you because of what you know about them, that, that's being kind rather than just being nice.

Yeah.

So what, so what is, what's been difficult about that? Like, you don't want to piss people off, or you always want to— you like to just see the good in people and the potential in people?

Yeah, I, I always, uh, I did a post about this the other month and about the airport test. If you can sit, uh, in an airport with someone for 4 and a bit hours, you probably should hire them because you can spend a lot of time with that person. So everyone that I've hired, I've really liked. I've bought into their story, I bought into them as a person. So when it came to managing, and especially when you're small and part of something that's new you want to be in the trenches with them and you want to be mates with them because you know that you'll, you'll sort of fight for each other. But, um, what my— I think my strategy was, or with the people that I brought on, is teach them the fundamentals, give them the fundamentals of recruitment and this job, right? Um, and give them metrics or KPIs to, to go towards, to aim towards. But I am going to be there. I'm not always going to be there to hold your hand because I want you to make mistakes, but I am there if you are finding this really, really challenging. And also, like, a lot of my management time is speaking to people about like if they're mentally struggling or things that are going on outside of work, I really want to buy into that. I think a lot of managers, maybe the perception is that 9 to 6 they're there, from 6 onwards they're not. And I think sometimes my, my proudest achievement is just being, being there for my team when it's not about recruitment, when they've had really tough moments in their personal lives. That is mentally draining for me, but it's the sacrifice that I've chosen to make to build, to build a business. So I had no management experience. I now manage 7, nearly 8 people. I've learned a lot of tough lessons along the way. I will continue to learn a lot of tough lessons, but it showed me that that's the part of the job I love. I really, really love managing people and being that, that person that they can go to when they need help. Um, it's, yeah, not an easy job.

And then what have been some of your steepest learning curves on like the business side? Was that something that the partner with the guys has really helped with. But like, what's been— because often you tell me, but I think sometimes the perception of, you know, starting your own business, what often people can be really, uh, find really daunting is like, I've never had access to or had to understand what P&L is, or you know what revenue is to GP is, or you know, setting up my terms and getting all that, or getting paid on time. Like, what what, what have been some of the, the steep learning curves there that you've really had to get your head around, or anything that you found difficult on that side?

The hardest bit about recruitment, in my opinion, is getting the money in the bank. Uh, sounds so— getting paid so hard. Um, do you have—

yeah, or do they help with that?

They do help with that. Um, but ultimately, if it's your client, you've got the relationship, it should be on you, I think, a lot of the time.

I think a lot of people underestimate this. Did you underestimate that?

I think—

you don't think about that job.

Oh my gosh, about that job.

So would you?

Big time. Just search. I make, um, a number of places, do a deal, make a placement, get paid the following month. Yeah, you know, they had a lot of cash flow there and we just got paid out, um, when it was due, like a month after we'd made a placement, right? But as typically in recruitment, you get paid when your client pays you. So that was really, really challenging, um, and it's challenging for my team as well because they're, they're young people, they do something really, really good and they've got to wait 2 or 3 months to get paid. Dan, like, that's not our payment terms, 30 days. I was like, I know it's 30 days. I think my first placement was pretty good, but we've had— I've had like 7, 8 grand fees where it's taken the client 8 months to pay. 8 months? Yeah, 8 months. And we've never worked with them. Yeah, we've never worked with them again, but 8, 8 months to chase a fee. And I'd come from— I'd come from a business where, you know, private equity, hedge funds, they pay on time. You deliver a service, they pay. Um, sport is a little bit different. So, um, I think that comes down to maybe that initial call, that initial call with them when we're—

so how are you approaching now? Because I was literally texting someone like the other week about how you're going on. They started their business, she was like, I'm still— I'm waiting for these fucking retainers to be paid. I'm like, because this is something that people underestimate. So like, you've had to learn that the hard way, big time, which I appreciate you sharing. Like, how do you try and— there's only certain things you can control, right? Like, if you deliver a service and you've said everything that you normally say, and then you send an invoice and ages to pay it. Yeah, that's quite hard. But like, how do you try and— how do you try and mitigate that now then? How you just said there on like, um, how you approach it, but like, how do you actually approach that now to give you the best chance of being paid on time?

So I talk about it a lot on my first call with a client, um, especially when taking on a brief, and just to say like, just to— at the end— well, not the end, I actually prioritize it and say, look, these are our payment terms, um, are we set up on your system? Have we signed all the forms? Have we done all that? Because that's another thing that gets delayed, you know. You make a placement and it's coming up, uh, just checking in, we're going to get paid tomorrow. Oh, you haven't filled out these forms, that's So I try and address all of that on the first call and not be shy about it. People sometimes don't want to talk about money. You know, it's like a dirty word, right? But I try and address that on the first call and say, look, these are our payment terms. This is what we expect. I'd love it if we got a card or like a, you know, a down payment. That'd be great. But often we have to trust that they will live up to that. I think if you build a really good relationship with a client and after you've made a deal, it's not just okay, 'Okay, when are we going to get paid?' If it's more consultative than that, you go in and meet them again and say, 'Right, let's do a review. How did we do?' And then at the end of the meeting, go, 'Just to make sure we're all set to get paid in 2 weeks' time, 3 months' time.' Don't be afraid to talk about it.

As you said at the very beginning, talk about your payment terms. Yeah. Have you changed your payment terms to 30 days to 14 days?

I have in some situations. What I've done a lot more recently as my confidence continues to grow is we've got half the fee upfront with 14-day payment terms, and clients have been really on board with that because we're so— we're then so committed to filling that role. There's no chance that we're not going to sell it. So I'm now trying to move our team— I don't want to call it retained model, it's just something upfront, it's a buy-in. You know, even if a client gives you £100, they're probably going to answer the phone more than they would. They're probably going to give you feedback on the CVs. They're going to be bought in to who you are because they've paid you a bit of money. So I'm trying to get half upfront now. I'm trying to push that across the whole team because you know what it's like in contingent recruitment. You, you run around, um, run around the races, and then you, you get a no at the end. Like, I've done all that work and I've got nothing back. So, um, I talk about it, I'm really open with our clients and say, look, it comes at a cost to use us. And I think sometimes they like that, they like that you value your service.

So what's been like— how long on average have you— it's taken you to get paid then?

Most of our clients pay in 30 days. I'd probably say there was 30% of the fee— so in 2 years we've made about 100 placements, right? And I would say 30 of those have been a nightmare. 30 of those have been nightmares.

Was that quite early on as well? Would you say?

Yeah, some of it, some of it was early on. I think as we've grown, it's funny when you make— when it's repeat business and you make— you're set up and it's really clean. But with new clients, which a lot of time it has been, um, it has been challenging. I've learned the hard way. And you cannot sit next to someone and say, press this button, I need to get my money. It's really tough. It's really, really tough. And I don't see a lot of, um, recruitment owners or people talk about that. But obviously if you're in a bigger recruitment firm, you don't have to worry about that. You have to worry about how—

so do you draw that into your team now? Were you like, do you also get them to talk about on the spot. Yeah, because I remember when you're— I don't know about you, but when you're like an employee negotiating terms, all you're thinking about is the percentage. Of course, that's all you're thinking about. I'm, I'm not— and maybe like the rebate period. Yeah, but besides that, I'm not thinking about fucking when we get paid. I'm just like, yeah, it's 25%, that's what we work to. And I'm just thinking about how can I get them to agree to the highest percentage. Yeah, um, not thinking about— and this is our payment terms.

Yeah.

So do you— have you got your team to understand the situation?

The percentage means nothing if the money's not in the bank, you know. You know, 15% in the bank is better than 25% not in the bank. And it sounds silly to say that, but it's, it's so true in recruitment. So, um, not being afraid to have those conversations with us.

I love that. And then have you come— and then have you communicated that? Does that affect when you pay people's commission?

Yeah, it does, it does, because we pay people out— we have a cutoff about the 18th or the 19th every month, and if the client pays before that, then it will go into that month's paycheck. But that will be from the month before.

You've made that clear to the team?

Yeah, they They know that. They know that. We've had a few people that have learned the hard way, and it's really tricky to have those conversations. But it all comes down to what could we have done on that first call to make it crystal clear that these are our payment terms. Now, another thing that we do, which I know is not maybe traditional for contingent recruitment, but I think has been really successful for us, is we invoice our clients on the day that the candidate signs the employment contract. So we have a lot of candidates more at the senior level. For the, the, um, on 3 months notice. So say it takes a month to do the recruitment process, they then hand in a notice, it's then that's 4 months until they start. There's then another 30 days on top, 5 months. It could be half a year, it could be 6 months until one of my team gets paid. And then you can't run a business on that. And if I had, like, when I have those conversations with my clients, say, look, we're a small business, we can't, we haven't, we can't do that in terms of cash flow. We cannot afford to get paid in 6 months' time. So what we do do with our clients is between signing the contract and starting. If they, if they fail to start for whatever reason, we'll give them the money back.

Hasn't happened.

Hasn't happened in 100 placements. Hasn't happened. Because I don't know if it's sport or it's our process, but people are so bought into their next role, so committed, they'll work their notice and they won't drop out. Because opportunities in sport don't come about all the time. So they know that they've got something good here. They can't just like keep looking while they're working their notice. They have to take the role they've committed to.

So you send the invoice when they sign a contract?

Yes, sign the contract, resign, agree a start date.

There's a lot of pushback on that then, or is it being fairly—

there was a start, but now, now it's, it's common practice and that's the way that we operate.

That's a good tip for people.

Yeah.

Do you talk about that at the beginning as well? Say like, these are payment terms, we invoice when the person signed the contract? Yeah. I guess you can share this story that of course if they don't start for whatever reason, you're going get, you know, your entire money back, no questions asked. However, that hasn't happened yet. Um, and then you explain the— because, because of the reason, um, of like, it could be 6 months if we waited until they started.

Exactly. When I tell clients that, they go, oh, okay, that makes sense. You know, if you were in my shoes, you'd probably want the same. So they get it, they get it. And I think having that insurance of how getting the money back is, is key.

Yeah, I think that's a really good tip, uh, for people. So how have you— how have you then, in line with that, like, how have you managed? Because you have, like you said, you've— you have hired people quite quickly. Yeah, I feel like with that journey, right? So are you like— how are you— how have you approached— like, have you thought about, you know, how much, uh, revenue, um, you're generating before you decide to hire someone? Have you— have you tried to grow into that, or are you like quite happy now the amount of people you're going to have and you're just going to focus on maximizing, you know, all the people that you have. Obviously I don't know exactly how it works, sure, partnership you have. I'm assuming maybe you have a bit more support on the financial runway, I don't know. But like in terms of, it seems like you might have had people that might, um, might not be profitable.

Yep. So yeah, to be clear, we wouldn't have grown this quickly if it was just me, if it was my money. I don't think that would be, uh the right way of doing things. But what we've tried to do is we've been aggressive in terms of growth plans. And I know to get up to nearly 10 people in 2 years is ridiculous for some people. But what we've tried to do is as we've grown, as we've made more deals, we've identified the areas of sport that need servicing and then we've hired people to do those areas. So now our team is separated. It's not at the start, it was just Dan Wynne's clients, Dan brings the roles on, we'll all just do everything we can to fill it, and we just grew, grew, grew. There's only so far you can do doing that. So we've now separated the sports industry specifically into different areas where people focus, and they focus their BD efforts, they focus their candidate conversations, they're building a market in the same way that I did at the start. So for example, we've got someone that focuses on hospitality and events within sport, and you might be thinking, well, that's not really sport, but it is. You know, if they're working for a sport organization with a head of operations or a head of events role, for us, that is, that's good. We love that. So we've got people who do that. We've got people that focus on sports technology. We've got a guy that's doing just Dubai and UAE at the moment. We've got people that are just doing sports marketing firms. I typically work with a lot of our rights holders, teams, leagues, the more traditional sports organizations. And then obviously we've got a team now that operates in the US. And I think one thing I haven't mentioned is that the Jackson Lombard Group, which is made up of 3 businesses, has got an office in Austin. So we have used the Austin office and their resources for some of the searches we brought on, which again is great leverage in that initial call being like, okay, okay. We are in London now, but we've got a satellite team in Austin, and I think people have really, really liked that.

Um, so with the— when you get to 9, 10 people, you're going to be quite— are you going to be quite happy with all the different niches?

I think so. I think so for now. Um, and also I'm conscious of my time as well. It's very hard for me to manage 9 people, but ultimately my goal is to, in a year's time, probably only manage 2 or 3, you know, directly, because they'll have a team and they'll have built a division themselves. So at the moment it's very intense. Um, everyone's sort of at the beginning of their recruitment journey. They're learning the hard way in a new market. Remember, I've hired nobody from a sports recruitment firm that had an existing network, so I've made it really, really challenging for myself. But I knew the long game was that, right, we're going to build something here that's different. They're going to learn how to do recruitment properly, and in the future, in, you know, 2, 3 years' time, it's going to pay dividends. So, um, yeah, that's the goal.

How, how's the— how's the approach on the US? How's that going?

Yes, it's going well. I mean, we've— of the 100 placements, we've probably— so 30%, I would say, has come from the US side. The, the most successful way that we've gotten to the US market is by speaking to our London clients, our UK businesses, and getting introductions there. Um, everyone's in the US market. I mean, I feel like I see so much stuff about the higher fees, etc., etc. I get it, I get it. But in the sports industry, a lot of the recruitment that's done is only done at the executive search level. So still at the, like, the mid to senior, the more junior roles, they're still done through advertisement, internal TATs.

A lot of people want to get into this.

Everyone wants to work in sport. Oh my God, everyone wants to work in sport. I did a post this week about the average amount of applications we get on our jobs because we post all our jobs.

Um, what is the average amount?

385 applications per job.

And like, is there good quality people in there?

Really good quality people. Really, really good people. Really, really good people. So, but it takes a lot of time to sift through. So, you know, internal TA teams will have all these applications come to them directly, have to sift through. By the time they've got to a second or third stage interview, they've dropped out or they've gone in another process. So that's our value. I mean, I don't have to say, every recruiter says that about sort of internal TA versus using an agency, but in sport it is magnified because everyone, everyone sees a job advert for a marketing manager at a Premiership football club and they press apply. Apply. Cleaners, dog walkers, everyone's applying. So, um, yeah, our value is, is narrowing down, making it a bit more simple.

So what's been really effective is getting referrals from UK customers? Yes, into the US. Yep. And then you've really had to just identify the maybe hard-to-fill roles which can't be easily done by, you know, doing the job adverts and all those things?

Yeah, we, we work with a really well-known sports marketing agency in London that wanted to hire their first person in New York, and I was like, yes, I will I can do this. And I did it in 3 weeks. And I was like, OK, we've got something here. So now the reason that we've brought someone in is because I know there's a market there, huge opportunity, but I can't do everything. So I think I'm probably going to be spending more of my time on the US market as we go on. But we can do it. There's no reason why we can't. And I think the US is probably where we're going to shift more of our business to in the next year or so.

So what, what are you really remaining laser focused on now then? Like, what's really top of mind for you then?

Top of mind is to still give clients an amazing experience. I think when you grow a team and you give people a few roles and you, you start handing them out, your worry is that the quality, it won't be as good as if I did it, right? Or if it's not, I haven't trained them as well as I could have. So always to— quality is, is top of, top of mind all the time, and especially when it comes to client experiences, because they've got so many other recruiters that they could just go to if you don't do very, very well. And the sports industry, especially in the UK, is very, very insular. So people talk. If you have a bad experience, I always, you know, I was always taught in recruitment, if you give someone a good experience, they tell 5 people. If you give someone a bad experience, they tell 10. And I tell my team that because they need to know that if they mess up or if they don't give a client the best of experiences, then they may not come back to you, and that's a relationship ruined. And that's a client that then talks to a few people.

And, and so what have been some of the things recently that you've implemented in your processes that you think has, you know, improved the client experience?

Out of interest, so traditionally we take a brief and then within 48 hours we'll send CVs. So what we've now started to do is, um, say, right, we're going to send CVs in 4 days, let's say, but in 2 days' time we're going to have a call to do some calibration collaboration. So we're going to say, right, these are the people that we're thinking of presenting, these are the best people that we've got and we think are right for this role. What do you think? Give us some instant feedback. Because it's so often that you send CVs and you're sort of twiddling your thumbs.

Well, so you jump on a video call and do that?

Yeah, we jump. So there's an in-between between— so when we send CVs, we're getting a much higher success rate between the amount of people we send and the amount of people that are invited to interview because we're working with our client. And if they're saying no on someone, we say, We understand why. So we try and operate similar to how an exec search firm would work. You know, they get paid a kickoff, they have calibration profiles, they then do first-round interviews. We're trying to do that but in a shorter period of time. And the quality is way better because our clients are like, okay, they're listening. And if they're not listening, at least they're taking it on board.

So the process is do the job briefing call.

Yep.

Post that, okay, well, what we're going to do is we're going to have another call in 48 hours.

Yep.

And we're going to talk through some of the initial people that we've already spoken to, which think that could be right. Yeah. And we want to get some immediate feedback just to make sure that, you know, we've understood and we've heard exactly what you're looking for, what you're not looking for. Yeah. Um, and then 2 days later you will then get, you know, the first round of, um, CVs that we wanted to consider.

Yeah.

For interview. Yeah.

And just ask, when are you free in 48 hours' time? Have you got that? You're good at doing that. When are you free? What time works? And it sounds silly, it's so small, but God, it helps so much because my team get frustrated when they're not hearing back on their candidates, and every recruiter feels it. So getting that buy-in from your clients say, look, brilliant brief, thanks for giving us an hour. We try and make every briefing call an hour if we can. 48 hours, I need to speak to you again. I'm going to present people. And they go, oh, that's, that's quick, that's exciting. I say, yeah, it is exciting, but we're going to need your honest feedback and we're going to need you on the call. And once they've bought into that, the first round interviews, they tend to see a higher percentage of the people we then send. Yeah.

And then anything else you've implemented in that process? Have you added any other moments like that? I think that's a really smart one.

Yeah, I mean, if it's a more senior search, have a weekly update call, have something in the diary that's on a recurring event. I've seen— I've heard this a lot about how recruiters work with their clients. But the more time you can have with their client, I think every time you speak with your client, you're one step closer to making a deal. Because even if that person falls out, they'll come back to you because you've been so engaged. And clients love it when you're engaged and passionate about what you're doing. So the more touch points you can have with your client, the better. Learn their rhythm. What's the best time to give you a call next week? When are you typically free? When are your quiet periods? Learning your clients is key.

And it's by having that approach enabled you more easily to ask for some financial commitment up front?

Definitely, definitely. Um, yeah, 100%, because it's that— it all comes down to trust. But the 50% up front is, um, why do they—

how do you position that? What's the frame like? Why?

Uh, well, I typically try and only do it on people that we've worked with before, but I say, look, once you've worked—

after you've worked with them?

Yeah. So on the second role that we'll work with them, I'll say, look, we're going to need 50% up front. Front here, and the reasons why are X, Y, and Z. I'll say, I want to invest more time in this and I want to make it priority. Um, I know we can place this role and I'm committed to doing that, so I'm going to need some investment from you up front. It's no, no problem in saying, I'm really busy at the moment, but I want to prioritise your role. I'm going to need some investment up front and I'm going to allocate more of my team to it. I'm going to actually give you 2 resources as part of the deal, um, instead of maybe just, you'll hear from us from CV. So Um, yeah, there's obviously resistance and people were like, why am I paying?

What's the normal objection?

Um, well, you get paid when you find someone good, and when we hire someone, um, instead of just, you know, I'm going to give you some money up front and what happens if you don't find us anyway?

Um, that's what they normally say. Yeah, yeah, say like, damn, but we've just worked this way, why do we have to change?

I think it comes down to priorities. We really want to prioritize you, and this is the way— this is more of a partnership partnership. It's very much— I think a lot of recruiters, they put clients on pedestals, right? And they're scared of them and they're like, oh my God, you know, okay, whatever you say goes. But actually it has to be more of a partnership. And I think that's what the best recruiters are doing at the moment. They're treating it as they're equals. I'm a recruiter, I'm busy with my own clients, but I, I do enjoy working with you. In order for us to have a really good relationship, I'm going to need some commitment up front. And when you phrase it like that, people are— people see it, see the value. And I try and always have those conversations in person if I can. I always get pushed back that's fine. But then I tell them about the success stories, about a few clients that have done it recently and how we've operated, and the time to hire shortens because you've got more people on the search. The client works better with you, we give better, better candidates your way. There's so many advantages of just getting a little bit up front. As I said, even if it's £1,000, you'd be surprised how good that client then becomes.

That's interesting, love that. So how, how are you thinking about— how are you thinking about the next 6, 6 or 6, uh, 6 to months then?

I'm really excited. I'm really, really excited because now we've got, we've placed 100 roles in sport. I'm really excited for the team to have gone past that journey of the first sort of 6, 9 months in recruitment and have that confidence that maybe I had after my first deal, where they get on the phone or they're pitching to new businesses and they are, they're killing it. And I know, and I know they've all got the potential to do that. It's really, really tough at the moment because it's, it's a tougher market for recruiters, so we're getting more pushback, but they're all they're learning what a tough market is, which I think is great. It's not great when obviously I've got investors and people that I report into that are saying the revenue's down, which is tricky. But if consultants can understand what a tough market looks like when it bounces back fully, I think we're going to be flying. But my focus in the next 6 months is all around the US market and how we can attack that, how we can do that really, really well. I'd like to go over there more and meet with our clients in Canada and really understand the nitty-gritty of the challenges of their business. Not just, I've seen a role advertised, can I work it? I want to know who you you are. I want to know your pain points so that, as again, I know how to sell back. Um, yeah, I'm passionate about recruitment not being transactional, and I think that's why clients have bought into me, because they see that I'm trying to do something good and there is value in what we're trying to do, and we're an expert, which is good.

Yeah, Dan, honestly, I think like kudos to you on, uh, you know, early on here, I'm sure you're like just getting started.

Yeah.

And, uh, I just, I think this is what's so cool about our industry that, you know, when you do it properly and you really commit to solving these problems for companies, you can build a business out of nothing. Yeah, right, which is, which is what you're doing. Like, you didn't have a previous network, all these things which a lot of recruiters have when they start, um, and you're building something which is in an area that you're really passionate about, and you've just been really committed to understanding the world, understanding the problems that you can solve, and then you just continue to improve it over time. So I'm really excited to see, you know, where you guys are in another 6 to 12 months. But also, yeah, like, commend you for like building everything tonight. I think that's awesome because I'm sure, you know, early on, like you were saying, you're like, what the fuck have I done? Um, but you, you kept pushing through.

Yeah.

Um, and now we're here, and like you said, probably just, just getting started, which you are. But you've, you've built something out of, out of nothing really, which I really commend, and I think is just super cool about our industry.

Yeah, definitely. If it was easy, everyone would do that. I really believe in that.

So thanks for coming on the pod, mate.

No problem. Thanks for having me on.