Calum Lyle - Stop worrying about money, learn every single day and focus on building relationships

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz and I am joined today— it's another late night session in the hunted offices, so thank you, thank you for joining me this evening. But I'm joined by Callum Lyle, who is a director at Robertson Sumner recruitment agency.

That's me, that's me.

I just practiced that about 3 times.

I know, I know, and you've absolutely smashed it.

No, as I said, mate, I know, I know it's a bit late So, uh, thanks for joining me, mate. Um, but look, as I was saying before we, uh, went live, where I always obviously took a cheeky look at your LinkedIn. Yeah, but how did you get into recruitment, Callum?

So I, I think, I think probably like most people, you just fall into recruitment. I'm not sure many people just jump out the womb wanting to spec CVs.

Definitely not.

Um, no, I kind of just fell in, fell into recruitment. Um, I graduated from Bournemouth Uni, International Hospitality Management. So interesting, probably quite an unusual degree.

Or a degree you pick that—

my old man, actually. So I think before uni you don't really know what you want to do, and kind of like leaving uni, you don't really know what you want to do. So my old man from Glasgow— I can speak like this, there's the podcast. No, but my old man, uh, proper, proper Glaswegian grafter.

Yeah.

He, um, so he did hospitality management in Strathclyde Uni, which is like a second uni in Glasgow, okay, um, and worked his way up the corporate ladder. So actually started with Stackis, who got bought out by Hilton, but then got into HR. So that's actually one of my drivers for, for wanting to get into recruitment. So I did my dissertation, I just became interested in like— really, he, he was sort of people director, HR director of lots of big, lots of big businesses.

Influenced by your dad then?

Influenced by my dad, um, got really interested in like employee engagement and why people why people work somewhere, or why—

why do people— why do people— so many people hate their job.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And then sort of how some businesses absolutely smash it.

Yeah, that is interesting, to be fair.

Yeah, so, um, I got really interested in, in that. And then, um, I think just like, like all these things, yeah, you, you leave, you leave uni and you type in— to be honest, recruitment's everywhere. Yeah, you type in any job, you could type in bloody zookeeper or something, and recruitment would still be the number one.

Yeah, but obviously when you do that, you you didn't— don't realize that it's actually— that's a recruiter that's trying to— did you get one?

No, no, 100%.

Oh, but yeah, Mom applied for all these jobs today, and really you just gave your CV to like 50 different recruiters. Oh yeah, by the way, Callum, no, no, that job that no longer exists, mate. So let me tell you about this beekeeper job.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. You haven't got a clue when you're applying. Yeah, yeah. I, I also found that just application process and just applying for jobs. Really interesting. I don't think I've ever got a job in like a conventional type way. I got— I did a placement as part of uni, and I sort of tell this story every now and then. I got that via reading an article in a paper, which was via the VP of Intercontinental Hotel Group, someone, um, and it was effectively millennial bashing, like, really. And this was 2012, so probably quite early for people to really jump on that bandwagon. Yeah, say millennials are lazy and all this good stuff. And I wrote him a letter. So I wrote him a letter and said, yeah, I know, really old school, saying, hey, I think I'm—

you went to type then?

Yeah, I wrote him a letter. I wrote him a letter kind of saying, I can partly agree with you, but I'm actually— I'd like to prove you wrong.

Yeah.

A lot of this and not expecting to hear anything back. I sent it to the States and his PA next week got back to me and offered me a job. Okay, that was my internship. So I just, I enjoyed the sort of chase of getting, getting through to some of these, these people. Um, and obviously I've, I've always lived a fairly comfortable and ridiculously lucky lifestyle, so you sort of become, you become accustomed to having nice things or going on nice holidays, but I didn't want to sponge it all off my parents.

So recruitment, every recruitment job says you're going to earn a Yeah, so that attracted you.

You're gonna earn 4 Rolexes in the first year, all that good stuff.

So then, so then just to, um, set this in then, so then you go into recruitment and then you've worked at Robertson Sumner for just over 5 years. So just over, and that's been your only recruitment job?

Yeah, only recruitment job.

Yeah, interesting. So I guess before you joined, um, them, what— so by this point, what was your perception of recruitment like? Was you, was you then actively interviewing recruiting?

I didn't actively interview, if I'm honest. I applied for a couple of things. I went to one of these like a Prato Law-esque— oh wow, how was that? I hated it.

Yeah, because I had a story. I think the, um, yeah, I had a chap called Jack, um, prior on, and he went through that, and it sounded grim, mate. I never did any of those.

It's just, um, it's a competition to see who shouts the loudest, and, um, that's not really why I wanted to.

People get chopped there and then, and like—

yeah, so, and to be honest, I got, I got through it. So there was 40 grads or whatever. You got through it? Yeah, you go into a room, they come—

what was What's the worst thing you had to do for that process?

There's a whole host of different tasks and stuff, but one quite good one actually is selling someone else.

Yeah, yeah, that's what he said. He said that's what he enjoyed the most.

Okay, yeah, so that's quite good. Why is that?

That's interesting you said that as well. Why is that good?

Because it actually allows you to sort of assesses your qualification sort of skills. And I think that's a good recruiter, is a really good listener, and actually sort of takes, takes the information they're given and portrays it in a—

yeah, you didn't have to sell a pen then?

So I didn't have to sell a pen.

No, no, no, no, no.

I've actually never— I've never done that. So that was, that was the, the only recruitment interview I went to, and I kind of left that thinking, I don't really want to be one of these people.

So yeah, because that's what I mean, did that— that's the interesting thing, because like that the sort of same experience, um, Jack had, it like actually like put him off recruitment, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

Okay, I wasn't quite put off, I just didn't think that was the person that I wanted to be.

Yeah, yeah.

And I've— the perception of recruitment before going in was money, everyone's dickheads.

Really?

Well, yeah, like people— it's down there with the estate agency, isn't it? But you, in terms of just the stereotype of, oh, I'm going into recruitment, or I'm a recruiter, Yeah, um, but I've always been really proud of being a recruiter, and I think every good recruiter I know is proud of being a recruiter. Um, and I saw it as a big opportunity because actually if the expectations down, down pretty low, if even if you're mediocre, you're gonna sort of—

no, no, that's really interesting. So then how does— so then how do you end up at Robertson Sumner then?

So I, I saw— I was going, it's probably April time, graduating in June. I saw an application or a I saw a read advert for a recruitment business in Jarrod's Cross, which was 10 minutes down the road from my family house. And I didn't apply, but I sort of saw that advert. I thought, there can't be that many recruitment businesses in Jarrod's Cross. So I Googled recruitment Jarrod's Cross. Robertson Sumner was the only company that came up. So I found them. I found Mark's, who's the owner's details, via the website. So just email, and the advert was actually sort of advertising another assessment day, and I thought, I can't be bothered to go to that. And it was on a Saturday, and I can't remember what I was doing, but I had plans on the Saturday. So instead of applying, I emailed Mark and said, listen, I can't come on the Saturday. However, I'm just down the road, and I think I'm probably the sort of person that you're looking for.

I thought you were going to say you wrote him a letter.

No, I sent him a picture.

So I wrote a letter to Mark Allaire and actually went to his postbox, went down the road and posted it. I actually posted it in Gerrard's Cross, and they just took it across the road.

No, no. As I said, you went direct.

Direct, yeah, that's fair enough. I think that's a good one.

And I actually said it was quite a good lesson in hindsight because Mark was obviously the sort of person that I'd be trying to contact as a sales— yeah, so obviously I'm doing a sales recruiter, but he's a sort of sales director or owner of a— sure, head of a sales type business. And I wrote him this long email and he came back and said, profile looks good, can see you 10 AM tomorrow. So that was it. So it's kind of— it was a good lesson of these guys don't want to read that much. They, they just want straight to the point.

And that's really interesting.

So yeah, I went down next day at 10 AM.

Cool, man.

He liked me. He asked me to go back later that day to a presentation.

And on the same day?

Same day.

Nice, mate. And then you've been there 5 years?

5 years.

Okay, mate, love that. So let's just, just set the sort of, um, the sort of course of your career, and then we'll break it down, right? So right now you're, um, the director of one of the— obviously the director with Mark of the business, right? So the typical— obviously people, recruiters get sold all the time. You could join here and then you'd be training and become a manager, all that. So you've done that typical sort of journey, right?

Yeah.

So, so you started as a consultant. How long did you do that for? Roughly?

Just, only just over a year. Okay.

And then after that, what did you do? Did you then start?

So I went into like senior, senior consultant, but then started taking some sort of managerial responsibility. So kind of billing, billing manager.

So billing manager for how long, roughly?

About a year and a half.

Yeah. And then after that?

And then actually swapped roles with Mark.

Really?

So it was a big step for him.

Yeah.

Swap roles with Mark and look out, looked after the whole team.

Okay. So, and then how long have you looked after the whole team for?

But just coming up to 3 years now.

3 years. So, so, okay, so like 2 and a bit years like billing, and then how long have you not billed for? 3 years.

3 years.

Really?

So a long time. Mad. A long time. I still, I still contribute. I still—

yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's break that down then. So where— why— always like to— so Actually, so what sector do you recruit in? What sector do you—

well, I— IT sales. Trust me, I only ever recruited in the IT sales market, um, and the business is 19 years old. So until 2 years ago, we'd never done anything but IT sales.

Okay, so real— a business had a legit reputation, been doing it for ages, obviously.

Yeah.

Okay, that's really interesting.

Now we do tech as well.

Yeah, cool, perfect. But for you, yeah, we've been obviously IT sales. Okay, amazing. So firstly, like, how were your first 12 months then in terms of performance-wise?

Um, my first 12— my first 3 months, really didn't like it. Really?

Why didn't you like it?

Because, because I'd come from like a hospitality background and I'd done sales in, in hospitality. I think, um, it was a big move for me. Quite a lot of people were saying it might not be the right move, and I was really focused on— I had offers at like 30k or whatever, and obviously I took 18 or the much, much less to go into, to go into recruitment. So I went in really motivated just to earn money because that's— yeah, that was one of the main purposes of, of me doing it. Um, and you kind of— and I kind of got involved in like those sort of certain office politics, or my team leader left on my second month, or actually first month really, back end, the start of the second month. And I kind of 50% focused on recruitment and 50% focused on money, politics, or all the other, all the other type stuff. And I saw the bad more than I saw the good. And people always say control the controllables, and I'm a massive believer in that, but I wasn't doing that at all. Um, it was sort of sold to me as you'd have your own business within this Robertson Sumner bubble, but I was kind of— I was, I was caught up in a whole of— whole sort of everything else that's going on around you and not seeing, not seeing the good stuff. And I was, I was really— I was acting like a recruiter. Oh, I was acting what I perceived a recruiter to act like, which wasn't me. And I think what I learned was you act like a traditional recruiter, you'll get treated like a traditional recruiter. Most people stereotype a recruiter as, again, expectation pretty low. So I think I was going into it not—

I wasn't genuine.

I wasn't genuine.

That's interesting.

I don't think so. I was just trying to get some candidates.

What did you— was you just straight on the like trying to source candidates? Would you straight like be DMing?

We sort of share a lot of business. It's quite a collaborative workforce or sort of team. At the time there was only, there was only 7 of us.

Oh wow.

Um, so it's quite a small—

yeah, I joined a business of that size, a small team.

So I was working— so you like working other people's jobs, maybe working other people's roles to, to start with and just try to— I was trying to sell to people. I was trying to sort of really, really go in and just, just be this flurry of energy. And I've got, I've got a lot of energy, but I wasn't sort of seeing it for the right reasons or being— I don't think I was being very me.

That's really interesting.

That was quite a— how—

okay, so how did you realize that then?

I realized it because I just wasn't enjoying it. I was getting caught up with all this other, other stuff, and I, I was convinced I'd be a, a good recruiter.

Yeah.

And again, I was seeing the negatives rather than the positives.

Yeah.

And one massive positive, there were quite— the team weren't that successful. It was very much Mark and his merry men. So Mark was and still is a tremendous recruiter, and at the time he was probably billing $400,000 or $500,000 on his own.

Yeah, no joke.

But just sort of him and a group of other people. Yeah, kind of thing. And I was kind of half focusing on the other people, whereas what I should have done was seen everything that Mark was doing.

That's interesting.

Brilliantly. And try and adapt it in my own, my own way. Mark's a very, like, a very salesy person. I wouldn't say I'm that salesy, but I just soaked in as much as I could from him.

So how did— so, okay, so how did you start doing that?

Just, just, he was in the office, so he was, he was, he was on the floor. So I just kind of listened into it, to his calls. I was always gonna work harder than everyone else. I had a hospitality— I've always been up at 5:00 and will go to bed at whatever time. And just, I was in the office, I was gonna, I was gonna do more activity than anyone else. That was, that was one thing I could, I can guarantee. But I was, again, I wasn't very genuine. I kind of changed my mindset and looked at everything that Mark was doing. And I think it was how I'd want to be treated as a candidate rather than how I think I should be as a recruiter. I know that sounds, that kind of sounds a bit weird, but I treated every candidate as if they were my missus or my friend or whatever. And I try and do the best thing by them.

Just do the right thing.

Yeah, do the right thing. Sort of let money not be my main motivator. And that really worked wonders for me.

So what then happened to the end of that first year then? Like, did things start to change?

Yeah, so things started to change. I was reasonably— I probably billed maybe $30K within that first 4 months. So not particularly much.

You know how much I billed in my first year?

No, I don't know.

$24K, mate.

In a whole year?

Yeah.

Okay. But, but That being said, I think a lot of the best recruiters I know didn't bill that much in the first year.

Fuck knows, maybe, I don't know. That made me feel a bit better.

Yeah, it's, um, because I think it's the process. Like, you've got to invest in like relationships and you've got to invest in doing the right thing and not investing.

And then surprisingly the money takes care of itself, right?

Things come from that. I used to— it's a stupid analogy, but I used to work in Starbucks and Starbucks is values were. They had 6 guiding principles, right? And they— the money and their shareholders came last. So their philosophy was, we create a great product, yeah, a great service, a great working environment, the rest will follow. And I kind of put that into recruitment. So I just tried to do the best by every, every candidate that I spoke to. So be— make sure I come off every call being everyone's favorite recruiter and actually follow up with people. What recruiters do terribly, especially that first stage, they're just focused on candidates, they don't actually follow up or care. They speak to a candidate, they're not right for the job they're looking at, they just sort of fade into the abyss.

Yeah.

Um, I didn't think that worked, so I started building relationships with candidates, and guess what? Then they started referring me into businesses. Um, and it just, it just started becoming snowboard.

No, that's really, that's really interesting. So, okay, cool. So then those 7 months, like, what— so what, what would you say then, just to wrap that up, like, the core of what you started to do differently then? Was it, was it the simple mind shift of well, actually, let's stop treating everyone like a number and just trying to just sell my opportunity to every single person, even if it may not be right, and just actually, yeah, do the right thing, listen, learn from Mark, all these types of things.

And just soak up things around and soak up, soak up, just soak up everything and adapt everything into the way, into the way that I, I want it to work.

Yeah, no, it's like, think about, so yeah, the office I, um, recruited in, yeah, there's like 8 people I sat next to the owner of the business.

Yeah.

And like, it's just an open-plan office, and like, you can listen, you can hear every single person on the phone. Everyone around me had been doing that for 2, 3, 4, 5+ years. So like, yeah, if you're listening right now and you're in that type of environment, it's like, like, stop thinking like you know how to do it and like start just being a sponge and listening and take feedback and all these things.

100%. Look at all the positives around you. Look at, look what people are doing well.

It's hard to when you're in that, because like, this— it's easy to say, isn't it? Like, stop looking at the negatives, but like, it's hard when you're in that.

Oh, 100%. And recruitment on the— on the bad days is the worst job.

Because how did you get above that? Because it is hard to— because ultimately that takes a bit of sort of self-awareness and for you to be able to go, well, actually, Callum, like, just stop being a knobhead here.

And like, I just— I noticed it changed pretty quickly, really. I noticed half the conversations I was having, I wasn't doing probably for my best interest. I was just doing to build a relationship with someone. And I think if you start doing that— because the bit you worry about, right, is is the business development and actually picking up the phone and making all these cold calls. What you realize is if you start being the best recruiter to every single candidate— candidates don't— they do care, obviously, if you place them. I'm not, I'm not saying that, and that's obviously the goal, but they, they— it's also a service game. Like, of course, if you're their go-to recruitment consultant and yet someone else just got lucky by speccing in their CV, they'll still come to you and they'll recommend you to the the company they join. Um, but you've— yeah, and it just started changing pretty quickly. So the first sort of 3 months, I, I kind of just struggled a bit to pick up to it. And then the next, the next couple, I actually started seeing some real success, and then led into actually a fairly decent start to my first full year.

What'd you bill, mate?

128. So not a lot.

Not a bit. First year, that's not fucking bad at all.

First year. It was pretty— well, it was, it was okay.

Yeah, but were you just— yeah, but from when you— where you was, right? When you're thinking about back from it. So, okay then, to, to wrap that up then, a lot of people— I think it's fair to say, right, those first 3 months could have quit, right?

Yeah, definitely.

Why didn't you quit?

Because, because I, I, I needed to prove to myself I could, I could do it. I sort of— I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have quit I was sort of thinking though at that time, just get to the first year.

I mean, it was a good milestone.

Yeah, it wasn't like a— it wasn't like I was going to do this forever, but it was—

I get to you and see where we're at.

Yeah, I needed to shake myself. And how my recruitment career has gone, I've— every month that's gone by, I've loved the, the job more and more.

That's amazing.

I think even still, probably 2 years in, or maybe, maybe not, about a year and a half in, I wasn't sure I was like, it was, it was the perfect, or it's a long-term thing, but suddenly it just starts clicking. I, I know that sounds, I know that sounds crazy, but if you just constantly invest in the right activity and constantly feel like you're doing the right thing, or feel comfortable with everything you're doing, but also it is an activity game, right? You need to speak to as many people as you can, you need to have the conversations, you do the right thing, but, um, it just kind of clicks and you get so much, so much back from it. And guess what? You start working with clients who actually want to want to work with and you actually get on with, and you've got some sort of common, common ground with those people.

Okay, so second year then, how did that look then? Because I feel like quite a lot, quite a lot must have gone on for you to then, at the end of that year or beginning of the third year, to then you be in a position where you're managing the whole team, do you know what I mean? So how did you— so when did you become a senior?

So I became a senior probably Just, just after a year, Mark.

And did you want that?

Um, it was just a milestone. It was, it was kind of like, what could you hit? Yeah, you hit X.

And what, so that meant what, you then manage people?

Or— no, that, that just meant you became a senior.

Oh, okay, fair enough.

It's just a— yeah, yeah, yeah, a LinkedIn change. Um, we started— Mark started actually wanting to grow the business. He started seeing people.

How many people were you at then?

So still probably about 7.

Okay.

Um, And because I had a good relationship with Mark, I sort of sponged off of Mark, learned a lot from him. I started getting involved in the recruitment process, or at least just sitting in interviews. It wasn't like me making the big decisions or whatever. Um, and he— I was the first real sort of graduate that he, he'd hired with very little experience. Um, most people come from sort of a sales background, or most people had, or certainly someone that— yeah, success from. So he wanted to duplicate that and bring in a few more people like that. Yeah, well, yeah, probably better than me. So I started sitting on the sort of recruitment process and getting involved in that type of stuff. Um, and it just sort of naturally evolved into that. And I was doing, I was doing the job in the right way, very like Mark. And, and I think we just we've got the same exact same philosophy of how to, to do the role. And I was quite— Mark hates managing people, right? So he's a very good recruiter, he's a terrible, terrible manager. Luckily only manages me now, but that's what he was, that's what he was sort of bad at. He was very good, and I was good at asking for responsibility. So I just kept saying to him, if I build this, will you give me X pay rise? And he said yep.

And sort of, yeah, that's really interesting. And I just— you managed up, right? Yeah.

So I just, I kept knocking on his door and saying, can you put something together? And actually, the majority of the time I'd put something together. So I try and, I try and go with a solution of saying, there's nothing in place here, right? But if I build 30K in the next 2 months, will you give me this? Will you give me some sort of team leadership, or can I mentor someone? Or because that's just what I was really interested in, management sort of background in hospitality. And I was seeing these people coming in and I was actually understanding that I hated the first 3 months. But then turned it around. And I could probably add—

so yeah, you had the story to sort of— exactly, exactly.

And I was starting to see some real success at that point, so I sort of wanted to believe in yourself. Exactly, exactly. And I wanted other people to, to sort of see that success.

I think what, what I love about that is like you really are— you like, you really identified like your value, you know what I mean? Besides then, yeah, I think that, that's obviously the difference between people that Ultimately, like, Callum— another Callum who'd done the same thing could just continue on just billing, making more money. But you recognize an opportunity where you— you— Mark's a great builder, built this business, but he isn't great at managing people. And you saw that actually I can actually add a lot of value here. Yeah, that's really interesting.

And there was no real support around anyone, so everyone could look at Mark and think, okay, he's great, he's great. But there was no practicality as to how you can get to that point.

Exactly.

Or there was no sort of anyone putting their arm around their shoulder and saying, hey, he's showing something, this is, this is, this is what I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what—

that's, that's really interesting. So, um, I think, I think that's what, for me personally, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, but that's what I really like around, uh, a smaller business.

Yeah, definitely.

Do you know what I mean?

Definitely.

Like, for me, I mean, my only experience is I work for a big insurance company and work for a small insurance broker and work for a recruitment business of 8 people and then worked for a startup, which again had that sort of size people, and then now started my own business. But if I— my personal opinion is if I would probably choose a smaller business like you've experienced, probably a lot of the times, um, because I think, um, unique opportunities like that can present themselves.

Oh, 100%, you know what I mean? 100%. And I— it— a lot of it was timing, definitely.

Um, but also the proactiveness and you recognizing the opportunity, 100%, because like, what's your— what's like when like people listening, why they might be in a big corporate whatever. Like, what's your view on sort of bigger— I don't know, Hayes, Page, whatever— to Robertson-Sumner, for example?

How do you—

what's your sort of perspective on that?

I think, I think we'd give— or like a Robertson-Sumner or a smaller business would give someone— if you've got the initiative and a real drive to, to do the role and, and you, you feel like you can create your own lane and, and do the job the way you want to do it, I think a smaller business is is better in many ways, and especially commission structure and having the freedom to probably do things the way you want to do it, less red tape, etc. I also think there's huge value in the— definitely in the bigger business.

Yeah, it's pros and cons of both.

One of our biggest billers, actually our biggest biller at the moment, Aaron, came from Michael Page background, only was there 8 months.

It's the training. What I always say, it's like the training and all the processes and all that that you get exposed to, which is like top, top, top class.

And I think probably in those sort of businesses you could potentially be not forced to do it the way they do it, but there's a bit more of like a, this is the paid way.

Yeah.

I don't know. I've never experienced it.

Yeah.

I sort of—

interesting.

I take a bit of a step back and let people kind of decide their own way. Ask lots of questions as to what way someone wants to recruit and their sort of ethos. Obviously there's a Robertson Sumner ethos in a way that We, we like that.

Yeah, we like people doing it. It's interesting. So, okay, so then when did— so did you manage like a smaller group of people before you managed the whole team?

Yeah, and that, and that has definitely been the hardest part of my—

so how many people did you manage?

So I had a team of 4.

Okay, and that was after how long?

About 2 years.

It's like, right, let's do it. Like, did you do some mentorship before? Did you go straight from—

I did, I did, I did a little bit of mentorship. Um, and kind of guided, guided people through their first couple of weeks, or at least gave training sessions.

Yeah, yeah, weeks, etc. Um, it was nothing like—

it was kind of just a switch of one day, right, Callum's now senior consultant slash team leader or billing manager or whatever, whatever you want to call it.

And you still had to build at that point?

Still had to build at that point, yeah.

Really? And then how long did you do that for?

I did that probably only for about 6 months.

And that was quite tough.

And that was really tough. And that's when I first— like, time management was something that—

why was that so tough then? So you went straight to time management, was it?

Well, just time management was always something I just saw people put on their CV as something like a filler. Um, I mean, like, I'm a team player, I work hard, and I've got great time management skills. But that, that then you could actually see the value because everything before that I was quite an introvert in my own desk, if you know what I mean. Like, you had your own process. It was my— it was 100% my own destiny. So whatever I put in, I knew I was, I was going to get out, and I didn't really need to, to speak to too many other people. I was sort of using all my energies to go out to candidates and clients and speak to them. Um, but the team leader, so I, I kind of just— I probably went too much the other way and too much the managerial way. And actually saw the role changing, changing into like a management role. So started trying to offer my advice where actually maybe I didn't need to, if you know what I mean. I actually saw the role change, whereas in hindsight I would have, um, I probably, I probably wouldn't have done that. I would let people come to, come to me if they've got questions.

Okay, so what you mean by that is you're saying instead of imposing how, how you want people to do it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was probably too sort of forthright and, and wanting to sort of have one-to-ones and little catch-ups, whereas to be honest, I should have just led, led from the front as I was, because I kind of became crap at both, if you know what I mean. My billings actually suffered, but also I wasn't the best team leader because I was kind of half-assed.

Was that because what, you was then worried about your billings?

Yeah, it kind of. So I I then went back to effectively what I was like at the start. I was like 50% focused on recruitment.

Yeah, that's interesting. You've got to do that though, haven't you? I was never a billing manager though, so—

Yeah, but my opinion is you're always best 100% focused on one thing.

Okay.

So that's why time management became really important to me. So I actually sort of, since then I've divided my days into 8s. So I know I'm going to be in the office at least from 8 till 6, or I'm going to be around, if not, if I'm out of meetings or whatever, I can sort of assign time to do that. So I blocked it into 8 and just put 3 sessions as to when I was there to help. And actually, people don't need help all the time. People don't need management or someone telling them what to do. It's a very sort of self-learning type job. What they need is— and if you give people like stabilizers, or you give people something, they'll just use it all the time. So then they start asking for my advice, or can you, can you tell me how to get in with this company, or can you give me an in here, or whatever. That's not what people need to develop. They need to sort of be left on their own. They need to be able to fish themselves, as it were, rather than sort of just giving them, giving them a fish.

So what you're saying there, the biggest— so a few things there, just, just to make sure it's clear. I think that's a really interesting point, right? So just unpack that. You said, um, you realized and recognized, well, hang on, like, are you still trying to impose the Callum way probably a bit too much, or trying to influence how they did it as opposed to them sort of learning themselves and these types of things? And then also you was getting pulled pillar to post, which meant that you didn't have much organization, didn't have time management, and you became not so great billing and not so great at managing, right? So to solve that, you obviously recognized that. And then, so then how do you actually structure your day? So what do you, would you explain that just to make it clear. So you made chunks of your diary?

Chunks of my diary. So 4 chunks, 8 till 12, 4 hours, and then—

and so, and basically what that chunk there is, Hishem, you're my recruiter. So between, um, between 10 and 11, if you've got any questions about— that's the time that you ask me, then come to me.

I'll give you, I'll give you 20 minutes, I'll give you 5 minutes, I'll give you an hour.

However long you need. But that is the window that you have.

If it's a training session, if it's its just got this problem, what would you do? Do that. Because 90% of time people solve their own problems.

Yeah, yeah. So how does that help then? How did that help? How did that solve the problem?

Because that actually allowed me to focus on my own billings whenever, whenever I wasn't in one of those hour chunks, and then focus purely on management in those.

So what you're saying there, it allows you to be present.

Exactly, yeah, exactly. So whenever I was having a conversation with someone, I was 100% there. But candidates and clients in recruiting time and then consultants in, in management time. Yeah, however you want to look at it. I think that's so important. Everyone's, everyone's got stuff that happens at home, everyone's got stuff that gets in there in their mind, but the best, the best billers are people who are 100% focused on, on the task at hand.

Yeah.

And not focusing on the 101.

Yeah. I think that's a really good, that's a really good insight and, uh, so really good practical advice there for people that hopefully they can, um, implement. So Was that probably the biggest realization, or—

Definitely, definitely. And that was something that I kind of— I've done— I did management before, and I kind of assumed I was going to be good at that. But it was—

How did you get to that time management solution? Was it reading books? Was it off your own sort of just intuition?

Just by— because a lot of the questions people were asking me were stuff that, to be honest, A, could wait, yeah, and B, I just like it wasn't— it didn't make sense for me to answer it, ask, answer it there. And I, as you say, I was half present. I was kind of, I was kind of giving them an answer which was kind of bollocks anyway. Yeah, because I just wanted to get them off my back. Yeah, I had a call or I was really focused on something else, and that, that wasn't working for anyone. That wasn't helping any, anyone else grow, and it wasn't helping my, my billings in, in the slightest. Either. So it wasn't— it was kind of just self-learning and actually just doing it on the job.

Okay, so then, um, after those 6 months, then you then managed—

that was a really, really, really big step.

Did you ask for it though?

I did, yeah. Well, I kept sort of saying it. Mark was just— we were growing to a point. So I joined when we had 7 consultants. That point we probably had about 12.

Um, and it's a tough number around that.

It's a tough—

it's a tough to like get past.

It was a tough number. Mark was getting ridiculously stressed with all of the management side. He really didn't want to do it. He wasn't necessarily that good at it. He was a much better biller than me. And we were at a point where I was probably— I was billing around $15K a month plus having managerial responsibility.

That's not fucking bad.

No, it's not terrible, but it's enough for someone like Mark to be able to cover my desk in a real short term and think, right, I can take this hit now. At that point I was 20, 24. And then for a 24-year-old to look after a business, and especially someone's pride and joy in Marks—

so when you say look after the business, what do you mean? Was it not just managing the people?

Just, just, just take over, take over the team, take over every decision that wasn't recruitment.

Really?

Yeah, we, we had, we, we have an ops type chap who looks after that, the invoicing and—

yeah, so it wasn't that basic stuff. But, um, so you should just make that clear. So then from that point Um, you managed what exactly? So you managed— so you managed 12, 12 consultants? Yeah.

Um, any decision that wasn't recruitment-based, so what we were gonna put our marketing budget on or what— yeah, type stuff.

Okay. Um, and then also internal hiring?

Internal hiring, yeah.

Okay.

So just everything.

And then you've been in that ever since?

Been in that ever since, yeah.

Wow, that's interesting, that. Yeah, again, I think this is such a cool story to share with people that If you're in a sort of small ground business right now, there's like, if you want it, there's opportunities to be had.

So once you've proven you've got a basic level of experience in recruitment and you can actually build something and you can generate something from nothing, I'm a massive believer it's all on you. It's kind of all on you.

Yeah, 100%. And I think what you've sort of explained and stuff, it's something that I think, so like my old recruitment So the, the chap that owned the business, like, I think what you're talking about there is really interesting as well, because I, I think personally, if I looked around the, the room in my old office, there's some people that just turn up at that size business and just do their thing. Yeah, which is fine, and you need those people. But I think you, you're a bit similar to me where what, what you've done really well is like, obviously you've done everything that you need to in terms of to show Mark that you're someone that he can trust in these things, but you've really built a unique relationship with Mark, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And that's also something that people can do, and I've sort of quite naturally done that. Like, he's still a mentor to me now, and I can always speak to him these things. But if it's like, if you were to look around in the office then, like, how many people were trying to really cultivate that relationship to a point where it's like, well, actually there's a real opportunity here for me, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And then I think that's really like, you can actively do that if you want it, 100%.

But people put in this imaginary like glass ceiling of you can't do it because no one else has done it. Um, which to me just didn't make sense. Yeah, like if I asked the responsibility— if Mark doesn't want to do something, if he doesn't want to manage people, there's going to be a solution. There's going to have to be a solution at some point in the road, like if he wants to grow the business. Yeah, so it's not qualifying out with him. Does he actually want to grow the business?

I really like—

I really like how you go with the solution. Don't go with a problem, like don't just add to his problems. You don't want to manage, okay? Well, what's that about? So you don't want to manage? Give me a timescale. Give me what you want me to do in order to take that burden off you.

Like, actually go into the solution. So how many people do you have there now?

20, 21. Wow.

So that must have been quite interesting. Yeah.

So the first year of me looking after things, and it was hard for Mark. I think probably in hindsight for him it was probably the best decision he's ever made, but also one of the worst.

Really?

Only in the sense of it was his baby, like, and, and everything kind of revolved around him. Whereas now he's kind of not obsolete because he still very, very much takes part, but he doesn't need to be there anymore, which is quite difficult, I think, for her.

Yeah, that could be a— I mean, obviously you said what, like, it's been going for what, 16 years?

19 years.

19 years. So like, obviously he's been— he's like, he wakes up every day, knows what he needs to do. Now he's like, I've got this fucking 24-year-old running short. What the fuck do I do?

100%. And that I think was really—

that was a personal challenge, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. And I think what you realize is, because it was with him in the room, you put a ceiling. You put a ceiling there because he manages his own relationships, he's billing, and people don't realize what they can do. Whereas we had some really good talent, and then suddenly, guess what? Everyone starts billing a lot more.

Wow.

It's not Mark and his merry men. Everyone's kind of got their own little business and their own little way of doing things, and people just start growing. People— and it, it just, it sort of booms. That first year we grew 59%. Really?

Um, and so what would you put that down to?

What I put that down to— Mark, Mark taking less responsibility and giving people more. So one, one person— it's kind of like, how is that analogy? How do you eat an elephant? Like, not just loads of people taking small chunks. So it was kind of, it was kind of like that. It's taking, taking everything off of one person and giving loads of people more responsibility. And when, like myself, when given more responsibility, people step up to the— people step up to the mark, and people start billing more, people start thinking, okay, this is, this is serious now. I can start earning proper, proper money, and I can, I can start developing my own relationships, and this is this is my own recruitment business within this Robertson Sumner bubble, rather than I'm kind of one of Mark's minions, or whatever, do you know what I mean?

No, yeah, definitely. I think that, especially in, especially in that site, like, sort of close environment, that must have been intense if people felt like that. So then that must have been sort of an interesting relief for people, do you know what I mean? To feel like, all right, this Callum chaps is running shop now, and like, he's just a 25-year-old kid, mate, why can't I?

I think, I think—

do you, did you have to manage people older than you? Yeah. And was that difficult?

Not particularly, because I don't think age is like— yeah, that's too much, too much of an issue. I think people have seen I was very sort of respectful, and I'm, I'm the, the—

I, I'm just not coming across with, yeah, no, I'm 24, like, that's sort of not bad. That's when it's trouble.

I'm a massive mindset that he does sort of leaders eat last, and it's like, uh, my responsibility, if anything, the higher I go, the less the less kind of— less it's about you perks and stuff I, I get. It's all about— it's all about them. It's just giving them the platform to, yeah, to, to grow. And actually, once you start, start seeing that— so then they had a success story that wasn't Mark Summer, the owner of the business. They had, they had another success story. And you just branch off more and more people, people like that. And then, and then it makes it easier hiring for yourself because you can say Oh, Aaron's done this, or Adam's done this, or Shannon's done this.

A lot more examples, a lot more people to look at and go, well, they're just like me.

Exactly, of actually people being successful.

Okay, so what was— okay, cool. So then over the, over the, over the last 3 years then, for you then, as now managing this business, it's been focusing on growing the business. Yeah, not only headcount, but in terms of revenue and these things. So how have you done on that standpoint?

We've, we've just— so we've grown We started, we started with about 12 when I first took the position and now we're at 21. Grew 59%, 34%, and we've already hit our number this year. That's amazing in terms of revenue. So things are, things are amazing.

Things are okay. So what I'd be keen to get your thoughts on now, because I think you're in a— I always love talking about this because I think it can sort of give you the opportunity to give some real value to people listening. Um, through that whole journey then, mate, how obviously you've been seeing these people flourishing, getting more responsibility, etc., etc., etc., besides obviously the, the unique nuance of Robertson Sumner and that type of environment, what have been the sort of core things that you picked up on, noticed, that your guys, girls now, um, who are flying, top performers, whatever, how have you seen them grow and see the things that they've changed and the habits that they've implemented their day? What are some of the key things that you picked up on?

It's kind of having the mindset to do it. I know that sounds silly, but I'm a massive believer that you should reflect every day and every week and every month and every— because you just, you don't know how far you've come unless you take the time and unless you do that. And I kind of encourage people to break down their days like I did when I was into sort of 8th and make sure 2 of those 8 chunks is trying something new and actually working out at the end of the day, did that work? Was that good? Was that bad? And then either cutting it down or doubling up on that because some things will work for people, some things people will hate.

So when you say, sorry, just to butt in there, when you say cut up your day in 8, what do you mean?

So again, 4 slots between 8 and 12, 4 slots between 2 and 6.

Okay, okay.

But if it's 8, it's 8. If it's 4, it's 4.

Okay, okay.

I find I lose I've got a really short attention span.

So no, no, I agree. I've done, I've done, mate, I've done it myself recently, definitely, in terms of like blocking out certain chunks to do just that and these things. So, but that's really interesting. Okay, so mindset, mindset, and a part of how these people, how they, how that's become better for people is you've encouraged them to try different things, you've encouraged them to reflect, these sorts of things.

And also just someone's got to have a big why. They've got, they've got to actually understand why they're why they're doing it and why Robert Sumner are doing it. And if I'm not a believer that should be money— I know people say, oh, they draw diagrams of Ferraris and Porsches and, yeah, and Rolexes or whatever that may be, and they sort of draw out chunks as the closer they get. That will work for some people, right? But there's got to be something beyond that, I think. Mine is stupid, but it reflects everything I do. I've my, my sort of why is I want to do a TED Talk. So really, yeah, so that's the top line of my CV, and it has been since I started. So I want to do a TED Talk and I want to make 2 people millionaires.

Really?

And what's so cool, and what that, what that says about me, it's not just I want to earn £400,000 next year or whatever. Yeah, what that says about me, or what, what I believe, is I want to do something that changes the world, or that's so cool, I want to impact something. And I can reflect back on that every day right, kind of out of the 8 chunks that you've done, out of the 2 things you've tried, have you done anything that was innovative enough to sort of change the world or to make— to move forward as that task of being— doing a TED Talk?

So, man, I love that, but why does that help me as a recruiter?

Why is that? Because you can— you've got something that's there constantly pushing you forward. For example, Aaron in the team is— he said, and it's crazy, as soon as someone starts doing stuff, everyone starts doing stuff. So I never thought anyone would build— and we're outside the city, but I never thought— so Aaron, 2023, um, and build $165K in the last 6 months.

Wow.

But he's only done it to become top of the leaderboard. So now he's top of the leaderboard, he's like, what the fuck? So he needs to have something else to push him forward because otherwise You get to the top of the leaderboard, I've done my, I've done my thing. Yeah, I mean, so I think that's just—

well, that's obviously the whole like money thing and all that is like, oh, so when I get a Rolex or whatever and you get there, it's like, yeah, exactly, not that great. I always remember it like, again, outside of London, but I remember getting like my biggest paycheck in recruitment. I got it, I remember just sitting at my bank account, like it didn't make me feel anything. Do you know what I mean? It's just a mad feeling because like I just always had in my head like, yeah, keep pushing, this is why I want to do it, blah blah blah, money money money. And then like you get like the biggest amount of you've ever had in your career and it's like you just don't—

it means nothing.

Yeah, it's mad. It is mad.

But again, I'm genuinely—

so how is that going to help me push through then? Do you know what I mean? Because some people might be listening and go, yeah, I get it, like why it's so common. But obviously a lot of people may think it's just a bit wanky, like how, how How is that— how has that helped Aaron get to that point, you know what I mean? How has it helped him become the top guy if he's had a strong—

I think it's just, um, again, you could, you could only look at yourself in, in recruitment. Like, you know, no one will stop you from being successful, so there's got to be some sort of extraneous variable that takes you, that takes you there. In, in my mind, like, as I said, once you've got the personality to do the to do the job. You're a nice fella, you've— you, or guy or gal or whatever. There's got to— in my mind, there's got to be something further that drives you, that drives you forward, because otherwise you'll get people— and again, it changes for different people. Yeah, but the best recruiters I know have that.

No, I agree, I agree, definitely. So I guess just the final point on that, again, I'm thinking of people listening, like if I'm a manager right now and I've got 3 people around me, I've got 3 calendars running around, and I just think like they are, they are struggling. Like they're letting the, the bad days get the better of them, these things. And I really think, okay, Callum, what he's saying, having that sort of bigger picture thinking, why they're doing it, these sorts of things is going to help them get through that, right? So how have you— how have you got that in your people? Do you know what I mean? Because that must— that can't always be easy.

I think what I've learned, and especially managing, is to, to take a step back. Always, always ask questions. Don't necessarily answer questions. So if someone comes to the problem, they'll they'll answer the question themselves. You've just got to pose the right, the right questions. I think, um, I think you, you learn that not everyone's, not everyone's an Aaron. Not everyone wants to bill ridiculous amounts of money. And a business is successful if you've got 20, 20 consultants all doing $150K. You'll be fine. Like, you'll, you'll, you'll be successful. So I think it's looking at everyone as individuals.

And that's interesting.

And that why doesn't have to be— that why doesn't have to be owning a £10 million house. Yeah, that could just be, I want to create a comfortable life for my family and I want to be able to buy fish and chips every Friday.

And so, but would you directly ask these people to think about it?

100%. 100%. And I, I'd keep going back to it.

Really?

Keep going back to it. Right. You said you—

how early on do you get to think about that though?

It's first day.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. There's got to be something. I, I— and it allows me to know more about you Yeah, because I want to know what is actually pushing you. Because if I say, oh, you haven't done your 10K this month or whatever, but did you really— do you really want that Rolex? Or do you really?

Yeah, yeah, you do.

Oh, come on. Yeah, yeah.

There's got to be something that actually—

because I'm with you. I bought a— I stupidly went out and bought a watch for my first paycheck, but the money in my bank Didn't mean—

didn't mean anything.

Aaron billing 200-whatever K, it means something. Obviously he can— he lives a certain lifestyle because of it, or you can grow that lifestyle. But half of the fun for him is getting to the top of the leaderboard. Like, yeah, it's not the money, it's the— it's the thing behind the money. Yeah. I mean, so I think it's important that you understand that. I think it's important you understand what someone actually wants to achieve and keep pushing them at the same. Because if you manage everyone the same, everyone will just end up—

Yeah, that's really interesting. Okay. Um, what, how, how, because I, I've sort of seen it myself, and how, how have you found, or what, what, what do you think has been the core of the success of you going from 12 to 20, 21 people?

Do you think having, having other people delivering and sort of success stories and a vibe around that. We've got such a much better engaged workforce. And honestly, anyone would do anything for anyone. And it's kind of developing that, developing that culture. I think it's quite hard just to be a lone wolf. I think at the start of my recruitment career, that was what I actually struggled, struggled with because everyone was kind of a lone wolf looking at Mark thinking, no one will ever do that. Whereas now, it's funny, it is that sort of 4-minute mile type philosophy. Once someone does something, it pushes the next person to do it, and then it pushes the next person to do it. And then once you've started pushing people, once you've got these success stories, I think it's quite easy to then get new people bought into that, bring new people in and actually think, okay, these guys are being successful, I need to copy Mark, or Hishem, or—

yeah, that makes sense. What are the two core things you look look in for hires for your business?

Um, humility. I think every recruiter, every recruiter I've— or successful recruiter is actually proud of being a recruiter, and they don't hold themselves in too, too sort of high regard, and they don't think they're the dog's bollocks.

Yeah.

Um, and probably the mindset, because— and to humility and probably mindset and reflection and growing.

Yeah, yeah.

And all that good stuff that they're The personality has got to be there. I'm not a big believer that anyone can be a million-pound biller or whatever. You've still got to have the right personality. Or it's like you put Harry Kane next to me, I can't be that. I'm just not— I haven't got the talent.

Like, I've got the knees, mate.

Yeah, exactly. I'm hobbling around on crutches. Um, but, um, you've got to have a core, core.

But no, I like that.

Yeah.

So how, how do you, how do you pick up on humility in the interview and the mindset? Because how do you try and find that out?

And so it's quite interesting because I actually went through a time where there was a point where we were struggling for vacancies. So we were struggling for like a conveyor belt of vacancies, and I actually went against my ethos and started hiring more salesy people, or people I thought were salesy. Yeah, they're a bit more arrogant. I didn't actually like them as much, really. And I think that's important because I think not only will I Sales is kind of a popularity contest, right? Like, you've got to get on with the person next to you.

Yeah.

If I like you, I'd do as much as I could to help you. And I think that's exactly the same on a sales floor or recruitment floor. And I think part is just, do you like someone? Are they— I don't like people that boast too much, especially when they don't have anything to to boast around. I want someone who's got a bit of a why, who really wants to do it. And you can coach someone who you want to have a conversation with to be successful. What's difficult is because we started hiring these people who we thought were—

when they didn't work out, no, they just didn't fit up the assholes.

They probably did the traditional— they'd act like a recruiter, but then they got treated like a recruiter. It wasn't really our ethos.

It wasn't, uh, business development. Yeah, you should mention it there. Always like talking about it. It's probably one of them I always say on here, a very common topic that people want me to cover. Um, obviously we're, we're, obviously we're catching up earlier, but I guess two things I'd love to get your thoughts on. Um, business development for your team and these types of things. How are the, the, the good people, the good guys and gals approaching business development in your team, or how they got better at it?

My personal approach to business development, if I was short of roles, you'd see me sort of registering and interviewing more candidates. Like, I'd always go back to the candidate, get as much sort of, and just build as good a relationship as I can because they're the best in, like, especially in sales.

Or speccing in candidates.

Well, no, no, but just getting information from them. My goal again was to kind of just get people jobs. So if I've got a good relationship with the candidate, they'll get me into the, they'll get me into the account and they'll give me the, the guys' or girls' mobile number to, to call, etc. So like a genuine, genuinely, we use a lot of video now. So, so videos, video is great and actually having a reason behind it and trying to add more value. So what I always used to do in a business development type sense was again, I'd keep close to all my candidates whether I place them or not. I'd still send that candidate something when they started. So if I found out that you started a new role, but I didn't place you, but you still really like me and I was the best recruitment consultant you'd spoken to, I'd send you a gift and I'd send it to your, to your line manager. But I'd send it to your line manager. So I'd say, your line manager Paul or whatever, hey Paul, understand you just hired Hishem, um, great hire by the way, really, really liked him. And I try and add some more value. So just so you know, I got this psychometric test or I got his P60, here's who he says he is. By the way, and kind of like a soft, a soft sell of this is who I am. I was speaking, I was speaking to Hishem before he joined. Would love to. And just loads of, loads of little threads like that. And it came out. So adding as much value as you can outside of the recruitment space, not just talking about jobs. So I don't like—

yeah, just— no, that's, that's a really good point. Yeah, sorry about that, mate. Like, this light's in the haunted office. I don't know, I'm gonna have to come up with a solution, mate.

Just got to keep moving.

No, I really like the way that you put that, and really interesting. Again, it's coming back to sort of your mindset towards recruitment and stuff, isn't it? The fact that you're willing to— recruiters listening, like, why the hell would you send a gift to someone that you didn't place? Like, why the hell would I do that, right? But you're thinking long term, you're thinking that's the type of recruiter that— how I want to be perceived and these types of things, right? And then the other thing that I'd love to get your, um, thoughts on, mate, because as we were talking about earlier, like you were saying before, before we came on here, that you've been like you've been pulling jobs, right? Yeah, the most probably. Is that fair to say?

Yeah.

How you been doing that? Let's talk a bit about that.

How have you been doing that? Um, I think when you lose your, your quota— it's a bit of a weird one— when you lose your quota, you, you start becoming less keen to— I think it's like when you— I, I take it, I put always recruitment as like a dating analogy. Once you start becoming desperate to find a misses or another half or whatever, it's really hard. I mean, like, if you're desperate, people know you're desperate.

So when you're coming across—

when you're pretty chilled about it, when you're just doing something for the best of, best of, um, every party, I, I think it just becomes really easy. I get— I've got much more content out, I put a lot more video out, but none of it's really related to recruitment.

It's not you selling.

Yeah, exactly. People use LinkedIn to celebrate success. So I'll celebrate with them. Yeah, I'll find a— and I'll always have a reason to call. I'd never make a phone call. I'd never make a business development call without a— yeah, definitely not. Definitely not. But once I did, once I've got a thread going, I'd be structured with that. What a lot of people are poor at recruiting, they do the perfect thing. They've got a reason to call, they've got a strong reason to call, they get through to the person, the person probably says I'm not recruiting for 2 months or whatever, All right, great. I'll give you a call back in 2 months. And then they forget about it or they lose it. My diary was always full when I was recruiting of calls. Yeah, I'd always book them in and make sure people knew I was going to call. Okay. And if they didn't, then it just makes the whole process so much harder and it shows you're actually diligent and you're going to follow what your ethos is.

What have you been making content about?

What I'm making content about, um, it's quite— it's probably easier for me because I'm making a lot of content. I make a lot of content about our business and how we grow.

Yeah, you do that quite well.

Success stories.

How is that pulling jobs?

How's that putting jobs? Because it gets, it gets loads of people engaging. If you, if you've got— if you put out a post and you've got 180 people like it or talking about it or whatever, it not only gives the consultant the opportunity to say, hey, I saw you— people love just liking stuff and commenting on people doing well, especially when they've spoken.

Yeah, you have it. So you've, you've done quite well in celebrating people's success in your business.

Yeah, celebrating people's success, just getting content out around sort of best practices when it, when it comes to, to recruitment, and not necessarily talking about— I think you've got to add a lot more value in this market. I think rather than just talking about, talking about jobs all the time, I think there's actually got to be a lot, a lot of added value. And I probably turn away at least 50% of the roles that I'd get because I think it's impossible, and I'd always tell people it's impossible. And I actually quite enjoy both candidate and client side, because what candidate's always going to say is the same dating analogy. Yeah, he said, well, I want you to find me a new role. Can you find me Margot Robbie or Angelina Jolie or whatever? I just say, that's— you're not going to be able to find that.

So yeah, saying no, being honest.

Yeah, you've got to be realistic. But I, I'd make a bit of a joke out of it, right? I'll tell you what, never— you'll never bloody find that. But what I'll do, I'll give you a call back in 2 weeks and you can try and prove me I'm wrong. Because if they do, if they somehow miraculously get— and in this instance, Margot Robbie's Google and Angelina Jolie's Microsoft— if they do that, buy them a couple of beers.

Yeah, yeah, nice.

You'll get in with those companies. And exactly the same with clients, because otherwise—

I like it, mate. A couple of things before we finish.

Yeah.

Um, what's been your biggest learning since being on this sort of management journey?

Learning that people won't care about the business as much as I care about the business.

Ah, that's interesting.

I get really, really frustrated all the time because I'm so passionate about it. I love the business to death and so are other people, but it's my baby. It's not theirs. They're not going to care as much.

You can't think that they're going to do everything that you are because it's not the same.

Exactly. So it's unrealistic, and I think it's unrealistic, and I think it's unfair as well to treat everyone the same because like there are some people who are happy billing $150K and earning $40 grand.

Yeah.

And in my head, obviously at the start I didn't understand that, so that was really difficult.

That's really interesting.

Why didn't you want to earn more? What are you doing? What? What? Yeah, yeah, just, just chill out, Callum. Like, yeah, that's, that's fine. People aren't going to care as much as what I— all I can do is be there for the ones that do, do want to do more and actually just push people to do a bit more.

So again, it's recognizing like everyone's in their own lane, doing their own thing, respecting that.

Yeah, 100%.

That's really interesting.

Not getting too frustrated.

That doesn't mean they can't be bought into the business. It just means that they can't be bought in at the Callum standard.

And there's a big difference between that. You can't set everyone the same standards that you've got.

Yeah.

Because otherwise people like just go insane.

That's really interesting.

Ridiculously, ridiculously high standards with with everything. And if I did that with other people, it would only drive people away. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. You've got to look at everyone as a unique individual and set their own standards and let them set their standards as well. But just encourage them to, to do more. Encourage them to be the best person that they can, they can be.

I love that.

Then try and make them into a calendar, because that doesn't make sense.

Yeah, I really like that. So, um, two things, just because I've got— I've had a couple of messages about it recently. So I wanted to make sure I definitely asked that, and I'm sure your guys deal with this anyway, so I'd be interested to get your thoughts. Counter offers.

Okay, counter.

Like, what's like if you're— if your guys come to you, or you're— one of your girls come to you and goes, Callum, like, I'm not sure, like, this person said they're going to accept a counter offer, or I think they might be prone to it, or whatever. Like, that topic of counter offers, what's your— yeah, what's your sort of go-to advice to your guys?

A, make sure you qualify out in the closing process. People closing in recruitment is one of those things, especially when you're new to recruitment, it seems really easy, right? Yeah, it's going to be— yeah, and you celebrate straight away and you don't ask the other questions, like you don't even find out.

So when you say qualify at the close, what do you mean? When you give them the offer or qualify before?

Qualify at the close. When they say— when you say, yep, do I— if they came back with 40K on a trial close or whatever, I definitely accept. So if you got counter-offered and they— and your current business offered you $50K, what would you say? What would you say to that? I'd look, I'm completely out of here. I'm done. Right. Perfect. That's at least qualify out. Whereas most people just say, well, yeah, you've got the job. Yeah, get it under the table.

Yeah.

Whereas— and you can't cut it out all the time. Everyone knows that 80% of people or whatever who accept a counter-offer leave within 6 months or whatever. Status. But still, and you can't control it all the time, especially in the sales market. People will, people will lie, or they'll, they'll just, they won't tell the truth. They'll sell to you. But at least if you've qualified out the, the sort of option of them getting counter offer, you've got to understand that these guys, you're going through the recruitment process every day. These guys, it's a one-off. They probably haven't looked for a new job in a while, so they probably haven't even thought about a counter offer. Or if they have, yeah, then you're probably prone to something there. So you're gonna have to be safe.

If I'm— if I come to you and said, Callum, this got my sales guy who I qualified out did that, he's— he told me to accept it, he's told me that he's— he's probably going to accept the counter offer, he's been counted off at 10K more than you're for, whatever. What's your advice?

My advice, there's probably not too much— yeah, too much you can do, unfortunately. You can educate the market as to as to the stats, the stats around it. And you can actually— you should qualify out, obviously, why the person's looking to leave. 90% of the time, people aren't looking for money. There's a whole host of other variables as to why they've left. It's just making sure you've got all that info there because it's hard to— people don't like their manager, right? Your manager's still there, but they've offered you 10 more K. What are you doing? Surely you're going to be looking soon. Yeah, it depends what they've counted them. Yeah, um, okay.

But no, it says— I know, I, I like— I think there's some good stuff there. I like that. I just wanted to ask, it has been happening more though, has it?

Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.

No, I see, because that, that's why people— a couple people asked me because they feel like it has been happening more.

Well, I think especially it's never been such a count— like candidate short market. So whenever there's a candidate short market, obviously people are going to try and hang on to their talent.

No, it's interesting just because, um Yeah, like my— so my old boss would catch on the other day and he was saying— I can't remember the exact figure, but I think he pretty much said like £200K worth of business that had been like counter-offered or whatever. And like, it's like the most it's ever been. So it's interesting that you just said that and picked up on that.

Yeah, it's difficult, but you've got to understand people's drivers, why they're actually looking to leave, what the reason is.

I can't— I think I may have read it somewhere or listened to it on a podcast or something, but a really good advice that, um, I remember, like, it really resonated with me and was, um, ask the questions that you don't hear the answer to. Like, around that stage, I think that's just a really good thing to have in mind because I 100% at the beginning, like, you just want to hear what you want to hear. Yeah, because you want that fucking deal to be closed, you know what I mean? And I remember a couple of times you have to learn that early on. It's like, for me to definitely be really confident in putting this on the board, or thinking of putting it on the board, then what could potentially stop this from happening? Um, okay mate, last thing. Yeah, slightly different. Okay, what's been the weirdest or strangest or funniest thing a candidate said to you to, uh, when not attending an interview, or to like not attend an interview?

Um, there's been loads. My favorite, to be fair, was because this takes real effort, right?

This is—

yeah, so He probably like planted a seed the night before saying— actually, I don't think he did, but there was something, there was something around. I was calling him to prep him in the morning. Yeah, the interview was midday or whatever, so I called him at 9 o'clock and he changed his voicemail to say, hi, if this is anyone at Robertson Sumner calling, I have been rushed to hospital and won't be able to make the interview. And that was his, that was, that was his voicemail, like He didn't even want to pick up the phone.

Premeditated.

He woke up at 8 AM that morning and thought, right, I'm going to change my voice. So, uh, that's jokes. That was, uh, that's true. That was what you get, a whole host of excuses, don't you? But that, uh, that takes some, that takes effort.

No, that's impressive.

Just tell me you don't want to go.

Right, mate, look, really enjoyed that. What are you excited about, mate? What's going on in your world? What you want to show?

We're gonna, we're gonna move office, so, um, That's pretty exciting. So start of 2021, we're sort of ramping up, ramping up now. We've— we're gonna get a 40-man— oh wow, 40-man office.

Holy shit, that's exciting. Uh, it's gonna be ping pong tables, ping pong tables, yeah, beanbags, a lot, man.

Yeah, like proper, proper sort of—

that's really— that's amazing though. Yeah, again, obviously, like, you must be learning loads to go through that whole journey and process, you know what I mean?

I've gone through loads. We've rebranded in my— in my time. I've sort of managed, managed that, taking that, taking that through the process. Now we moved offices once, so we only upstairs. So we moved from a 10-man office to a 20, 25-seat office that we're in now, um, and we're looking to, to move again. It's, it's starting to become amazing, a really— like, you, you don't reflect on these things. Yeah, it started as like a little baby and now it's, it's, uh, it's really exciting. So yeah, hiring lots, looking to We're hiring them up. We just hired a marketing exec. So, um, exciting times.

Yeah, wicked. So look, last question. If you could communicate to every single recruiter right now, yeah, listen, they take on your advice, what would you say?

My best bit of advice I think would be stop, stop worrying about money, um, and, and start worrying about learning every single day and building relationships and not just trying to not just trying to put money on the board from the first. Build relationships. If you're constantly focused around building relationships and learning and reflecting and growing, you'll be absolutely fine in recruitment. You may not bill a ridiculous amount first year, but if you keep putting the work in, keeping the hours in, you're learning every day, the world's yours. There's so much, there's no ceiling in recruitment, really.

Calm. Enjoyed it, mate. Perfect. Thank you.

No worries at all.