Chris Hatfield - How to break free from limiting beliefs

And emotional literacy basically comes down to better understanding what is the actual emotion I'm feeling and is it the right emotion or is it something else?

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Chris Hatfield.

The analogy often used is our brain's a bit like a Google search engine. Anything you type in, it's going to come back with evidence.

I loved this conversation because it's about one of my favorite topics. Mindset, more specifically developing a high-performing mindset.

The habit of self-reflection is really important. That's probably one of the biggest causes I see of other things like burnout, imposter syndrome, added stress, is people just not giving themselves that time to reflect.

Chris, I've really admired from afar, love his content, and I think the way that he delivers practical insights to help all of you better manage the trials and tribulations of working in sales and recruitment. So in this episode, we really dig into how to bounce back from shit days, how to reframe limiting beliefs, and just really practical insights that hopefully all of you can apply to your day-to-day so you avoid things like burnout and you have more good days than bad days. Enjoy the episode. Chris, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here.

Thanks for making the trip. Uh, I've admired your, your work online I have a personal interest in mindset, trying to be the best version of myself. So always respect someone who's on a journey to help others be the best version of themselves. And a big part of the recipe is mindset and, uh, being better equipped to deal with life's adversities, work adversities, uh, through the mindset and the principles and the frameworks that you're that you have at your disposal. So I'm really excited to really go into the detail with you on mindset, performance, because all you do all day, all week is help individuals with these things. Yeah, so I think I'm really excited to dive into these things, uh, with you. So just to give everyone listening a bit of immediate context around you and the journey that you're on, if they haven't seen you on LinkedIn before or connected with you If I'm missing anything here, help me out. But from everything that we went through together, you've been in sales for 15+ years. You joined the sales world straight out of university. And a big part of your journey was in your first sales position, door-to-door sales. That was a big part of the journey, almost catalyst, where you found yourself having to deal with anxiety and found that particular part very challenging, 100% commission only. And that anxiety had the potential to cripple you. And that was a big part of the beginning part of the journey. Um, but yeah, as we said, sales for 15+ years, but most importantly, uh, you started your own business, Sales Psyche, in September 2020. COVID business, uh, I think there's a few of them, uh, around. And ultimately, like, what you shared with me is you have 3 pillars in this business, right? You have one-on-one coaching, you have morning mindset sessions, so webinar, maybe one-to-many, or where people can access the information and resources and the things that you offer, and you can give that to more than just one person sitting in front of you, or if that's on a video call. And then the other thing that you have is bespoke programs and workshops that you specifically design, um, and build for companies that you partner with. And you're also in the process of writing a book on high-performance mindset and mental health within commercial roles. So that's what you've been up to since 2020. And then in between and up till that, you was in sales enablement roles working in different, um, businesses. But ultimately you've always been in and around the the sales world.

Yeah, yeah, spot on.

Is that cool?

Okay, summarize very well.

So, so obviously it's fair to say that you have and do work with recruitment companies, but a lot of your work is in B2B sales, the whatever you want to call it, go-to-market teams, however you want to call it. Is that fair?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's a mix. Like, when I talk about sales, it's everything from customer success to recruitment to anyone that engages with a customer really, um, along the life cycle and the journey.

Okay, perfect. So I'd love to hear your take then. Uh, what we always like to start with is what do you believe are the common characteristics and traits of current top performers in today's market? Would that be sales, recruitment? We can sort of through it from a holistic standpoint, but what are those common traits and characteristics that you see in people?

I think someone, first of all, who's got a strong level of self-awareness. And I'm bound to say that, I think, because that sort of is the baseline for everything around mindset. But someone who really knows themselves and understands what's going on in their mind on a daily basis, and also isn't too hard on themselves, doesn't have this expectation that they should always feel a certain way, but just being able to understand when they are feeling a certain way, how they bring themselves back from it. You know, something I always say is I got taught boxing a couple of years ago. My coach said to me, no matter how hard you train, you're still going to get punched in the head. And it was around, you know, not trying to stop those punches necessarily. Obviously you want to reduce them, but it's more about knowing what to do when you get hit. And I think those top performers are people who understand what to do when things aren't going well, when things don't go to plan, when maybe something goes wrong, when something happens outside your control. So I'd say that's the first thing. I think the second thing is people's self-regulation, is being able to— it's one thing being able to understand your emotions. It's another thing being able to then decide what you do with them. And decide what they're trying to tell you and maybe not trying to tell you at the same time. And then I think the other biggest thing is your self-talk, is the conversation you have with yourself. I think, you know, in sales, in recruitment, we talk a lot about how you communicate with clients, with prospects, with candidates around your product, around your service, around what you do. But the biggest conversation you have is with yourself. And if that conversation isn't an honest one, isn't one that you're aware of, then those other conversations aren't going to be as powerful as they could be. So I think they're kind of some of the key pillars really that I see in top performers.

That's really interesting. Let's just go— I wanna, I wanna dive straight in with you, but because you brought it, brought it up in there, I'm super curious to hear your take on how people listening to this can develop self-awareness. Like, I, I completely agree with you. I've been on my own journey on that, whether it be journaling that's helped me, whether it be, uh, going on a journey of personal development, and that's helped me have a different perspective and be willing to look myself in the mirror and go, yeah, why do I feel these things? Why do I think these things? A lot of people don't do that, and a lot of people, uh, yeah, would rather just carry on, maybe live life on the surface level. I'd rather just not have to deal with why I'm feeling these things. I'd rather have to brush it under the rug. But self-awareness is really important, and I listen to all the podcasts I listen to. It is a real common thing, but I'm— I don't think anyone's quite cracked, because maybe there isn't a golden bullet to it, how you develop more self-awareness? Like, I don't know, for people listening that maybe struggle to understand how they can be more self-aware, or they do want to become more aware of who they are and how they feel and why they feel those things, what's the typical starting point that you have found yourself helping people with? What's that first step?

Yeah, I think it's a great point. It's a bit like anything, isn't it? With resilience, confidence, you hear it banded around. You need to be confident, you need to be resilient, but what does it actually mean? And for me, one of the best ways to build self-awareness is to build the habit of self-reflection. So you talked about there on journaling, which again, I think, you know, I journal as well. And I think one of the reasons I do what I do is I think you— some people hear those kind of words and go, well, that sounds a bit like hippie for me, a bit like, you know, oh, you've got to be— you've got to practice mindfulness and all this kind of stuff, which straight away people are like, well, that's not for me, I'm— that's not me kind of thing. So I think The habit of self-reflection is really important. That's probably one of the biggest causes I see of, of other things like burnout, imposter syndrome, added stress, is people just not giving themselves that time to reflect. And self-reflection, it can be as simple as— and I will do this at the end of today, we're recording this on a Friday— is a weekly win. So every Friday at the end of the week, I will give myself 10, 15 minutes and I'll reflect on what did I do well this week? Like, what did I intend to do and what went what happened. Not necessarily what happened out of my control, but what did I do personally from a business perspective and personal perspective. And I'll also do that on a daily, daily basis, um, having set goals and markers at the start of the day as well. And just by building that habit, first of all, I start to notice, okay, what am I doing? What's my perspective on this? When things are going well, am I giving myself enough credit for it? Am I acknowledging that and moving forwards? I'm not saying I might not be where I want to be yet, but I'm probably a lot further along than where I was. And what kind of conversation am I having with myself? So often I'll ask myself, how am I better off compared to this time last week or this time last month? And that in itself is a catalyst for that self-talk as well, and that conversation, which often, as you said, if people don't pay attention to it, is when that sort of critical voice takes over, that inner critic, and all you ever hear is, you're doing badly with this, you're doing badly with that. And it doesn't matter what you do, you've spent 60, 70, 80 hours of time at work that week. In your perception, you think it's been a waste of time because you haven't actually reflected on it.

Yeah, the self-reflection and building that habit, I like that. That's super practical. And as you said, if you build that as a habit, or at least attempt to do— make more space for that, it then opens up the doors to, oh, like, why am I feeling these things? Or at least leading to asking those questions. Whereas if you didn't intention, make space to go, what one thing did I do well this week? What one thing did I learn this week? Yeah, you might never arrive at just thinking, oh, like, how did this week go? You just, you just keep moving forward to keep doing the day-to-day. That, that's really interesting. I think one thing that, that's worked for me, which I think is also in this, which again could hopefully make more people even appeal to trying to make space to self reflect in the week is just by not going on your phone for the first hour. Because what I've found is by not having any external input, I then reflect.

Yeah.

And that, that's really helped me as well. Like, whenever I have felt anxious or my, uh, voices in my head and different things going on is very noisy, if I don't go on my phone and I go for a run or for a walk, I'm forced to think about these things. I'm forced to decompress and like understand why am I so anxious about this, or why am I thinking about that so much. So I think that's another thing that doesn't involve the word journaling, doesn't involve meditating, whatever, is also just making that intentional space for you to be with your thoughts. Which actually, for those of you listening, if you think about over the last week, when did you actually just have no external input, whether that's music, podcasts, TV, scrolling, whatever it may be, you might be surprised that actually out of the 24 hours a day, there's typically maybe always at some point external input. That's helped me.

Yeah, I think two things on that. Probably about 4, nearly 3 or 4 years ago now, I stopped taking my phone to the bedroom in the evening. Doesn't come in there. Like, you know, I think it's— I've created that sort of space as this is the place I go to sleep. And I'll put my phone in airplane mode probably at least sort of half an hour, an hour before I go to bed. And I won't touch it for the first hour when I get up because I think so often I used to have that habit of it would be there and if I couldn't get to sleep straight away, I'd go and grab it and scroll. Or you wake up in the night and there's always a deal or something, or you're waiting to hear back from someone. So that's one of the things you check and then you've instantly woken yourself up. Or in the morning, it's the first thing you grab before you maybe even say hello to your partner or, you know, get up and see some sunlight. So that's been really helpful as well of building that kind of habit and increasing the friction of of trying to remove that from being something that we can just sort of jump to, really.

Yeah, we like that. So where I wanted to really jump straight in is you are working with individuals, groups, human beings on a daily, weekly basis to help them perform better, to help them fulfill their potential, work on their mindset. And I asked you in preparing for this, what are the 3 most common things that you come up against? So I just wanted to start there and we can dissect each one, because if these are the most common things that you see, then there's a very good chance people listening to this are experiencing these things or have experienced these things working for them. So the first one that you shared with me is limiting beliefs. So let's start there. Like, what, what I'd love to hear your take firstly is what, what does— like, when you say limiting beliefs and you're working with people, individuals, what does it actually sound like and look like when someone has or is struggling or is working through limiting belief? What does that sound like? What does that look like?

Yeah, it could be as simple— and some people might be listening to this going straight away, yeah, I know I've got them. Enough people like, as you say, what are they? It could be anything from, I'm not gonna have a good day today, I'm not gonna hit my target, or I always struggle speaking to these types of C-level people, or I'm never going to be as good as this person in my team or my colleague, or I'm never going to know enough. And people sometimes will ask you, what's the reason behind that? You go, I don't know, it just is, that's just who I am. Just me. You build an identity around it. That's a limiting belief. There's no real evidence. So you might go, this one time this happened to me, and it's like, how many times have you done that? 50, 60 times. But that one time it happened. Or it didn't even happen to me, it happened to someone else, you know. And you build those kind of limiting beliefs based on other people's feedback and experience as well. So that in a nutshell is what a limiting belief is.

So you said there's no evidence. So do you— is that a big part of it, that someone sits in front of you and goes, Chris, I just can't do sales. I can't. I'm just not that good at it. I've had a few calls that went okay, but most of the time it's— yeah, I've, I've had to deal with rejection. I wasn't able to deal with that objection, uh, that I got on the phone. So you said that word evidence there, which I find interesting. So often are you trying to help people understand that you haven't really got any evidence to back up this limiting belief that you're telling me that you have. Like, what is it that you find yourself doing to help these people arrive at the destination when they go, oh, like, I've just decided that I'm telling myself that, rather than going— rather than actually, um, under— rather than seeing evidence that backs up what I'm saying? Is that what you find yourself doing?

Or—

yeah, yeah.

And there's a tool— I mean, the analogy often used is our brain's a bit like a Google search engine. Anything you type in, it's going to come back with evidence. If you're saying in that scenario, I'm not good with sales, it's going to go and run through all the archives to give you evidence as to why, linked to confirmation bias, and back it up for you. And when we, when we are often telling ourselves limiting beliefs, we're in a very sort of statement mindset.

Okay.

And this is where our primal brain is sort of driving. And our primal brain doesn't really know how to think logically. It's very driven on emotion, so it won't question things. It'll just be like, okay, if that's the case, that's the case. It's very like the kind of chimp, childlike brain. And when we're like that, we're not going to challenge it. So there's a tool linked to something called cognitive restructuring, uh, something called an ABC method. It's not always be closing, um, but it's activating event, beliefs about the event, and consequences. And this is used in cognitive behavioral therapy as well. I've worked with plenty of people who've said, oh, I've used this in therapy, I've never thought to use this at work. It's like, well, there you go, like these tools can translate. But the, the idea behind it is you've got your activating event, maybe it's the certain point of the month or the quarter, or you get an email from a candidate, or a call, you come off a call and you think, oh no, or you see a, can we have a chat from your manager, for example? And then the activating event, often we internalize that, which then creates irrational beliefs about the event as in I've done something wrong. This isn't going to go well. I'm not going to hit my target, all those things. And then we have those irrational beliefs, which then lead to negative consequences, which means we lose focus on our role. We change our process that probably would have served us very well if we kept going. Or we think, oh, someone's annoyed with me. So we start pestering them or they're ignoring me. We start pestering them and Now they're annoyed of you because you've started pestering them. So the idea behind cognitive restructuring is to externalize the activating event through questions, because when you ask questions, you activate the rational part of your brain. That's why, for example, when we've all been there on a Zoom call and you're in a group and someone asks a question, you think, well, was that for me? Like, your brain wakes up from it. So it's asking questions which then can create more rational beliefs and more positive consequences. So a really simple example of this, which I go through with people, is go, right, okay, let's identify the situation you're in. Is there a pattern? Because the more you can recognise the pattern of it's, oh, it's coming up at this certain point of the quarter, or whenever I have a call booked in with this person, this happens. And just by knowing that, you can start to preempt it or prevent it. The second thing is write down all your automatic negative thoughts, your ANTs, like what are the things you're thinking are going to go wrong? What are the things you're thinking did go wrong? And then imagining your brain is like a courtroom. You've got the prosecution there throwing out all these accusations saying, this is going to go badly, this is terrible, they're not going to buy into you, whatever it might be, you want to imagine creating a defense. And the defense goes, where is the evidence that this thought is true? And what else could be true here? It doesn't go, don't think that. We're very big on— sometimes people jump to that, don't they? Or you might say that to other people, you shouldn't worry about that, or don't worry about that. Doesn't work. Your brain will worry about it more if you're saying that. So where is the evidence and what else could be true in this situation? And then also, what are the benefits of feeling like this or thinking this? How is this serving you? We're often very quick to jump to, here's all the negative things, but what's the benefits? What's it helping you preempt or prevent as a result of it?

Interesting. So let's, let's just make this even more actionable. I think that was a really good breakdown, but I want to make sure anyone listening can apply some of the things that you just shared because that, that sounds really valuable. And I'll be honest Part of that made sense to me, part of it didn't. Yeah, like when you were talking through it, so I was trying to put my shoes then into— listen to that, listen to what you had to say. I think it's really clear that this is something that you do day in, day out, right? And I think you articulated it really well. But what I was thinking was, I might start thinking, okay, that sounds great, but that sounds quite difficult to go through that whole process on my own. Like, am I going to need to work with a therapist? Am I going to need to work with Chris? So I guess, would you mind sharing, using those principles that you just said, if I'm listening to this right now, I'm at my desk in a sales or recruitment role, and I'm listening to this, and I might have realized, you know what, actually, I don't know why I keep saying I'm not good at cold calling. And I've, I've recognized that there's a limiting belief. What, what would be the first step then to use some of those principles that you just said that I can do with myself that should hopefully make people feel like, yeah, I can do that, straightforward? And they can start helping them understand some of the things that you just said around how they can start shift, uh, shifting their perspective of I'm not good at making cold calls.

Yeah. Okay, so that would be the first sort of point I mentioned around the trigger. The activating event is cold calling. So every time you think about cold calling, this thought comes up.

Yeah.

Then you want to go through, okay, what are my automatic negative thoughts? Like, what's the reason I don't think I'm good at cold calling? Or what am I worried is going to happen? Is it how people are going to respond to me? Is it because people are going to ask me questions? Or people are going to judge me and look down on me because I'm cold calling? Or, you know, getting all those things right down. Yeah, write all those things down. Is it, I don't know how I'm going to handle this, or I'm worried that other people were listening to me while I'm cold calling? I hear a lot as well when no one really is.

Yeah, 100% common on that one.

Um, so yeah, get all those things down. So we might say, let's— common one, everyone's going to listen to me and people are going to judge me. Yeah, around it. And particularly if I'm not doing as well as them, I'm going to feel that even more. Okay, where is the evidence that this thought is true? Where's the proof that people are listening to you and maybe not just listening to you but judging you? Well, there probably isn't. And okay, you might go, oh, this one time this person listened to me and they said this. Okay, was what they said helpful? Yes. Okay, great, cool. So we've established no real evidence. What else could be true in this situation? Is what else could be true is that these people might listen to you, but that could be a good thing because if everyone is doing well around you, isn't that a valuable thing to get insights from other people? Wouldn't you rather get it from other people than carry on doing something that wasn't working? Yes. Okay, what else might be true is, well, no one's listening to you and no one, no one really—

and this is what's happening to the rational part here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you're asking a question which then you have to go into a logical headspace to answer because you have to think about it. You can't just throw out a statement.

And then where might you end up if you go through that whole process? Where would you then be like— do you just arrive and go, oh, maybe I was thinking about in the wrong way? Or it just then helps you You said next time preempt or do things to prevent you from feeling those things about making cold calls.

Yeah, I think so. The final question there is what are the benefits? So the benefits of thinking this is it's probably making me, you know, come across in the right way on calls. Because if I think people are listening to me, I want to come across quite sharp and I want to be prepared for it. So you then come, rather than coming up with this statement, I don't like cold calling because I'm worried everyone's listening to me, is I find people, if they are going to listen, is valuable because they will offer me Good information or good feedback from my cold calling. So that's the kind of then statement you start replacing it with, is this is a good thing because if people are listening, even if they're not, that most people aren't, but if they are, I'm going to get something from it. If it's, you know, it could be if we pick other ones like, um, oh, I'm not good with presenting or public speaking, or I'm not good with speaking with certain types of decision makers. Where's the evidence? Or what are automatic negative thoughts? Oh, I had this one call, and what happens if they ask me a question I don't know the answer to? What if they don't think I'm credible enough for it? What if I burn this opportunity for the company I'm working for? Where's the evidence that's happened? Some people might go, well, I've had this call once with this person. Okay, and how did— how often have you had that kind of call? One or two times. How many calls have you made in the last month? Hundreds. Okay, so if you flip it the other way around and you'd had, um, you know, if you'd had two good calls and 98 bad calls, would you think, oh, I'm going to focus on— you worry about the bad calls. So if it's that way around, it's fine. Then you go, okay, what else could be true here? What else could be true is that I can't control people's reactions. I can only control how I respond to people. Uh, what else could be true here is that those people were just having a really terrible day and I just happened to call them, right? What could be true, what's going on in the world right now, they've probably got 101 stresses and I was just maybe the straw that broke the camel's back, but it was nothing to do with me. What are the benefits of thinking this? Well, it means that I'm not getting complacent. I'm going to keep thinking about it. Maybe I need to be— maybe I can be more direct with these types of people next time. So either way, you're going to come to a conclusion that also dispels those thoughts and just sitting on something that the more you sit on it, the bigger the story becomes.

Hey everyone, a real quick one from me. This podcast would not be possible without our amazing podcast partners Vincere and Sourcebreaker. Because you listen to this podcast, you're able to get your hands on exclusive savings on both of these award-winning products. If you're a growing recruitment business, you have to check out Vincere, who are an all-in-one operating system for your growing recruitment business. With Sourcebreaker, if you want to make sure that all of your recruiters have the best tools on the market to stand out and beat their competition, then you have to check out Sourcebreaker. Use the link in the show notes, in the comments below, and you'll be able to get yourself exclusive savings on these amazing products. Love it. I think that'd be so valuable. So thanks for breaking that down. I think that, that makes it really applicable for people listening to this right now and helps them go on that journey of reframing some of the things that they have limiting beliefs around. So let's— we'll put a, a tick box for limiting beliefs. I thought that was excellent. So let's go imposter syndrome. That's the next one, right?

Yeah.

Uh, we're not necessarily doing these in order, but these are definitely the top 3 that you shared with me. So I guess why don't we just start with Why— like, I've— I struggle with this. I did a post about this this week, uh, and I've been using a different framing of it that's really helped me. But like, why— what's your belief on like why this is so commonplace? Like, how would you talk about, uh, why imposter syndrome is something that more people speak about, is something more people claim to have and that they have to deal with? Yeah, why— what's your perspective on why this can be quite common?

I think, what is that saying? 70% of us will be affected by it, but I think it's probably higher. It's just lack of awareness sometimes. I think it comes from, I mean, your post mentioned it around growth, is that, you know, if you weren't feeling imposter syndrome, there's probably, there's probably no growing happening. There's no stepping outside of your familiar zone. I don't call it comfort zone, I call it familiar zone. We can come to that if you want. Um, but stepping outside of it, and I think that's what why people experience this. It's, it's reframing it. I kind of alluded to it yesterday in that post you mentioned, um, but it's reframing that imposter syndrome. And again, similar to your thoughts, is looking at the benefits. Like, if you think back to every time your imposter has showed up, if you think back to every challenge you've had to overcome, your imposter has been there. Like, you, you feel sort of empowered every, every time you've overcome a challenge in your life, and that's come from probably that imposter. As well. So I think that's one of the reasons why. And there are 4 different types of imposters that we can kind of experience.

What are those? Because I've seen you do content on that. I think that'd be educational for people.

Yeah. So the first one is the natural genius. So this is, I need to get things right first time round, and if I don't, it's not because it's a new task or something difficult, it's because I'm not good enough. So this will often show up in, you know, avoiding trying new things in and outside of work as well. And these can be— you could be a different imposter at workers to your personal life when I go through this, and you can be a mix. So yeah, it'll be like, I have to get things right first time around, and you'll feel, you know, a bit embarrassed telling people how long maybe it's taken you to learn something. You've then got the expert, which is, I need to know all the answers, I never know enough, and I constantly, constantly— even though everyone else is telling you you're the go-to person, your biggest fear is someone's going to ask you a question one day and you don't know the answer to it, and you think, oh, that's immense shame on you. So it's— and there's nothing wrong, of course, with that kind of learning mindset. And all the things I go through. There's nothing wrong with the behavior, but it's the intention behind it. If it's being driven by fear, it's not a healthy and sustainable thing. The third one is the workaholic. So this is where you believe, I'm never going to be as talented or as knowledgeable as anyone else around me, so I'm always going to have to work 2 or 3 times harder. First one in, last one out. Probably quite anxious when I'm not working because I see my whole identity as work as well. And then the fourth one is the most common one, which is the perfectionist. So You know, I don't need to go into too much detail about that, but you can be a mix of them. And what I often encourage people to do is the first step is identify that mix and name your imposter. Like, give it a name, like a human name. Christian.

Okay.

Yeah.

What, what's the purpose of that?

So if you imagine, um, you know, if you're thinking about going on holiday with some friends and you're like, right, where should we go? And you've got like 2 or 3 friends, one of them is like, oh, we should go to Mexico, we should go and do an all-inclusive. You're like, oh, we go to Costa Rica and do an adventure thing. You know the clear difference between your friend's opinion and yours. You're like, okay, that's their opinion and this is mine. It's the same with your imposter. By giving it a name, you can start to identify what is my imposter's opinions. This is his thoughts or her thoughts on this situation. It's still valuable. I'm not going to try and ignore them, but they're not mine. And it's just being able to break up that identity and avoid it sort of coming under all one roof, which sometimes, you know, when people are in a situation and you go, maybe you're in a situation in your life about wanting to move home or like what you do at work and you've asked 10 or 12 people, you you then start to forget like whose opinion is whose, and you're like, am I doing this for me or am I doing it for other people? That's like an example of often what happens when we don't name our imposter.

Yeah, I like that. That's, that's useful. Let's, let's talk about reframing then, because I think whenever I've tried to learn about imposter syndrome and dealing with self-doubt and yeah, dealing with those feelings and trying to do everything I can to make sure that I don't become crippled by those, and, and that, that voice is really, really loud, like that imposter's voice is, is really loud. What, what I've understood, what's helped is it's normal, like normalizing it and understanding that, yeah, if you are pushing forward, getting out of your familiar zone, as you said, that that is part of the process. Of course you're going to feel like an imposter if you are going into new territory and you are growing as a person. And I think, as I said in, in the post that I did, what's really helped me is understanding and knowing that because you are, you know, growing, moving forward, don't have all the answers. You're not meant to have all the answers. That's part of the journey. And I think the key to it, which has really resonated with me, is, yeah, not presuming you know more than you do. And that really helped me because I'm someone that, um, yeah, is willing to be humble and have the humility. So not going into every conversation and going into business and trying to grow my business feeling like I know all the answers, that's absolutely tiring. To, you know, feel like, yeah, I'm making all the right decisions, I know what I'm doing, rather than, okay, I may not know everything about this just yet, what do I know and what do I have to learn, and, and be, and accepting that. So what, what have you sort of, what reframings and framings have you found helpful for people when you've uncovered the, yeah, they've been listening to their imposter too much, or that imposter voice, uh, and opinion is really loud at the moment? What sort of things have you found helpful for people to reframe that.

Yeah, I think first of all, to your point, I think what it also does to you, to what you were saying, it builds relatability, it builds connection with people, builds relationships. Is, you know, we've all, we all have those perceptions of people in our lives who we think, oh God, they, you know, they're so good at this, they're so good at that, we find it very hard to relate to them. But, you know, that's why you'll listen to someone on a podcast, you'll hear someone else's story and you go, oh my God, I can connect with that because they've been vulnerable, they've been open about something. I feel like I can understand that person. More now. And I think that's where, like, you know, you look at social media, you look at sort of influencers and content, that's where people are gravitating towards more now, is they want the very real person behind it. One of the things I shared this on your post I heard years ago was, you know, I'm here to learn something, not to prove something.

I love that so much.

And just going into that mindset, even if you're, you know, going in on a call with a company or a candidate, is I'm here to learn something about them, I'm here to learn something about how I conduct myself. I'm here to learn something about anything each day. And coming in with that mindset takes that pressure off around it as well. The reframe that I often use, which I referenced in the post as well, is imagining your imposter like the role of a villain in a film. So if you look at any good story arc— and there's a really good book, StoryBrand, that talks about this— I can never watch a film again properly without thinking about this arc. But you'll come in, the hero will sort of, you know, be quite plateauing, sort of going along flat, The villain will come in and the hero will challenge them and they'll fail, and then they'll go through a little montage of change and development. Like Batman goes into the cave and comes back out— the pit— comes back out and fights Bane and is successful. Now, if you don't have that villain in that film, first of all, it's not a very good story. No one watches it. Secondly, the hero doesn't change. The hero stays the same, and you are the hero of your story. And that villain, that imposter— it's not saying it is a villain, it's the role of a villain. Is to come in and cause that change and cause that development and cause that growth to go, right, what do I need to level up from now? And when I do get comfortable in environment, when I do get familiar with it, then it will come back again, and that's okay as well. But it's focusing on what you can control in the situation. So another tool I use around this, if when I'm working with people, is dealing with those kind of negative what-ifs, is what your imposter will often throw up. Like, what if this happens, then this will happen, then this will happen? What if I get asked this question on this call? Or what if this person says this to me, and then this, and then this? And you build a story in your head when first page hasn't even been written yet. So the idea behind it is going, okay, what are the one or two biggest reasons I think that might happen? What are one or two of the biggest reasons I think this person, um, why I'm feeling like this, why I think this objection or this question will come up, why I don't think this call will go well? Okay, it might be they're going to ask me a question I don't know, they're going to throw out an objection, the person on the call I haven't met yet. Okay, what are one or two things I can do to reduce the chance of this happening? Prepare for that question, preempt that objection on the call, research that person on LinkedIn beforehand, speak to the decision maker I already have contact with and ask them a bit more about what does this person want to hear, what kind of information do they appreciate. Okay. And by doing that, I've turned it from like this feeling and this thought into an actual action. And the key thing here is to then go into that call and not at the end of it and feel relief or that presentation, not feel— what we do is we feel relief. Oh, Thank God that didn't happen. Oh God, I'm so glad I got through that, you know, and you just park it. But that's the point to go, well, hang on, did any of that happen? And if it did, without those feelings and those thoughts, I wouldn't have probably done that. I wouldn't have prepared in that way. I wouldn't have preempted that objection. I wouldn't have researched that person. So what you then start to do is build a level of gratitude towards those thoughts and those feelings, which can then build a healthy relationship with that imposter. Because then when it pops up, it's almost going, 'Oh, why are you here?' to 'Okay, what are you trying to tell me?' Like, you know, what's the signal here?

I like that. It like encourages you to do that extra prep, which meant that call went well. Yeah, there's a better way to— it's— he— yeah, I really like that. And what I also loved about that example is like those feelings and that overwhelm, uh, of that imposter can make you feel like you're not in control of it. But the way that you just talk through that, the what-ifs, and then, okay, well, what can you do to help, you know, um, make that less scary, or these things, or like be best prepared, you then turn everything back into your control. And that's really empowering. Okay, next, next one, then I'm enjoying this. The next one is like you, you shared with me relationship with their emotions, but you like to use the word emotion— emotional literacy. So talk to me about that. What, what does that— what do you mean by that? And why is this something that you've seen a lot, or what does that look and feel like?

Yeah, I think emotions is, is one of the, the biggest pillars in which we misunderstand and, and we feel have a much bigger hold over us. And emotional literacy basically comes down to better understanding what is, what is the actual emotion I'm feeling, and is it the, is it the right emotion or is it something else? And also understanding what it is or isn't telling me to do. Or how can I respond from it? A study this year, I think Deloitte published it, where they were saying that, you know, there's 25 kind of core emotions that we have words for, but there's 34,000 combinations. Straight away there's a, you know, there's a whole sort of— I mean, I ask people often like, what do you see as the problems with that? And one of them is mislabeling it, is that you can often mislabel emotions. You could think, oh, this is anxious, this is anxiety, this is stress. And because it's a habit, you think, oh, it must be this. But it's like, then as soon as you start saying that, that self-talk, that limiting belief, it's like coming in here and going, there's a fire, we need to get out. I'm anxious. Like, straight away it puts your body into that fight, flight, freeze, or fawn state. So that's one of the things that can happen. Or we can assume the opposite. We can maybe wake up one day and think, oh, I don't feel motivated today, I don't feel excited, oh, I must be unmotivated. But I don't feel really positive today, I must be unhappy. We often go to the opposite end of the scale sometimes when there's, of course, a lot of gray in between the black and white as well. And emotional literacy is being able to understand that and properly label it and work through it as well. And also the key thing here is seeing emotions as signals, not threats. So similar to the example I mentioned before, it's almost like imagining the smoke alarms going off in the house rather than the house being on fire. But often we'll start to think, I'm starting to feel stressed. So we— it's as if the house is on fire already. It's going, no, no, no. It's trying to tell you something. It's a bit like when you're thirsty, you know, when you think about when you're thirsty, you don't go, what would happen if I didn't drink for a week or two? You grab some water and you're like, oh great. You don't wake up going, I hope I don't get thirsty today. You see it as a key sort of, you know, thanks very much for keeping me hydrated. So it's almost like getting to that point with all our emotions is that when stress or anxiety starts to come up, it's not saying I'm stressed or I'm anxious, is I'm starting to feel stressed or anxious, for example. And here's what I'm going to do to counteract it. From it, and here's what I can then decide how I respond to it. I don't always need to feel something and act on that feeling. It's, it's a signal, it's not a commandment, it's a feedback loop.

Yeah, I really like that. The thing that's going through my head right now though is I really like the way you're talking about it, but I do feel like— you may disagree— but I do feel like that's very reliant on the person being quite developed to being able to take that, take a step back And I know, like, you're not saying that you're gonna be able to do that every single time. Like, we're not fucking perfect and it's hard. But what you're saying is if you can have the ability to see your emotions as signals, not as you said, the house being on fire, so not instantly jump into I'm anxious, I'm these things, rather saying, oh, I'm starting to, I really like that, that's really helpful. But I feel like that, that is going to take, yeah, someone, yeah, quite well developed to when everything is feeling like on top of them, shit's going wrong they're also going to feel like things aren't in their control to go, oh yeah, this is, this is just a signal, like I'm not feeling these things. I feel like that would take a lot to take a step back in those moments. I don't know if you found yourself trying to help people wrestle with that, but I can imagine for some people they're like, there's just no way I could, I don't see how I could be able to take a step back. I don't, yeah, I don't know how you feel about that, but that's sort of what was going through my head when you're just going through that.

Yeah, yeah. So coming back to limiting beliefs is almost changing that to a question of going, rather than thinking, I don't see how I could do that, is what could I do to get to that point? Like, you know, what are one or two things I could do? And one of them is, first of all, you know, often it's in that situation when you're feeling very sort of stressed or anxious, it's often you've, you've kind of not really noticed it before it's happened. And that comes back to that self-awareness piece, is noticing more of your triggers. So like, notice what you notice. It's the sort of 3 steps of like notice it, name it, neutralize it. So noticing what are some of your triggers is one of the steps. I'd say if you, if you're not at that point, which I'm not saying everyone should be just by me talking about it today, but one of the things is go start to notice like what are some of the signals of you being stressed or anxious and not like what you're thinking, but what you're feeling. For me, it's like a tight chest or I start tapping my foot or like clenching my fist. So when these things come up now, I'm like, oh, I'm starting to feel anxious. Like, before I am actually anxious. So that's a good thing to try. The second thing is something linked to something called the 90-second emotional window. So this is often what we can struggle with, is something will happen, that's what caused— it's not the actual thing that's caused us to sort of exacerbate the situation, it's our response from it. So you might have just got off a call and instantly you go, I'm gonna have a terrible day today. Or you get that email first thing in the morning, you go, oh like, you know, pushed it back to next month or whatever it might be, or you get that Slack or that message and you snap back at someone, or in your personal life as well, like WhatsApp, and you're in a bad mood. 90-second window is all about— studies have shown that within 90 seconds our bodies can reset themselves back to a natural state. It's often our minds that keep us living longer in that. So the idea behind this is giving yourself 90 seconds in moments. And one way to do this is getting a stopwatch out on your phone or your smartwatch putting 90 on it and counting to it. So it's building that habit. And even I've had people put it on like a Post-it note on their desk, people who want to work on this, um, 90 seconds. And you'll count to 90, maybe remove yourself from your desk, go outside, get some fresh air if you can. If not, you can still do it there and count to 90. Because you're counting, you're having to use the rational part of your brain, which interrupts the primal part, which stops all that kind of ego and stories coming up. And because you're counting, you're having to be present as well. and then it's deciding what you do after that. So you might use that 90-second window and then go, okay, am I really stressed? What else could be— like the same question I used before— what else could be true here? What other emotion could be true here? Am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Am I tired? You know, before I jump to that conclusion.

I really— yeah, that's interesting. So just so I understand that, you're saying within 90 seconds you can change your state So if, uh, I had a deal drop out, you're saying get your stopwatch out, count to 90 seconds, and that's the time where you're feeling these things, maybe counting, so you jump into your rational part of your brain, as you said. And then what, after that, you're then changing your state, or those 90 seconds just to feel those things and be in that gives you that window to feel it and then change it? Just understand that because I, I, yeah, yeah, I understand that.

Yeah. So at the end it's going, do you know, it's just being able to put yourself into a rational state so that you can then make a logical decision at the end of those 90 seconds, right?

Rather than jump straight to, I'm gonna have the fucking worst day ever today.

Yeah, because your primal brain is driving your, you know, your, your, your receptors have gone off, you're in that fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. The 90 seconds is, hang on, let's step back, right? Okay, I'm now rational. 'Let's think about this' kind of thing. So it puts you into that state. You might still want to respond to that person afterwards, you might still say something to yourself, but it's in a more intentional manner rather than a reactive manner. You're responding rather than reacting from it.

Got it. Yeah, because that was going to be one of my things around giving advice for people managing the highs and lows, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? Yeah, because I think that those people that don't let those moments dictate how much longer they sit in their mind. And it, you know, those moments affect weeks, not minutes, is often the, the mixture of top performers to average and, and underperformers.

Yeah, yeah, it's having those moments. Why should I have to wait for tomorrow or next week to start again? Like, why can't I just reset myself now? And again, it comes down to the more people disempower themselves, the more they focus on the uncontrollables, the more helpless they feel around it. The more you can bring your rational brain in, the more you can empower yourself, the more you can recognize you can reset that. And I've got a really nice proverb that I heard, a Chinese farmer proverb, that I can share around this as well, that, um, the kind of line I say to myself now is, I don't know what this is yet, I can't call it.

I like that. So as we come to the end here, I'm really glad that we broke those down because I think there's so many practical things that people can use day to day with what everything you shared today. And those are some of the most common things that you find you're helping people with. So a couple, just a couple final notes before we finish them. One of the things that I saw in your office, you've got 'Rest as hard as you work.' I want you to talk to me a bit about that because clearly you're— that means something to you because you've got it on some sort of like plaque or it's a piece of artwork. And the context that I just want your thoughts on is— and this is what I maybe wanted to, to end on— is like, I, I really, I really like that, and that resonates with me. I, I'm a good sleeper. I, I fucking rest, and I know it's important. But I think you're a bit older than me because I saw it on one of your posts, like mid-30s, right?

Yeah.

And it'd be interesting to get your thoughts. Like, the leaders that I speak to A common thing that I think— we don't want to paint everyone with the same brush here, right? But I do think there's an element of work-life balance has potentially gone in too much in one direction. This is, this is my thoughts. I'm 30 years old and I feel like when I speak to other people that are managing, typically younger people, uh, a lot of people want all of the success. They want Chris's lifestyle that he has. He's a successful entrepreneur, all these things. But I also want to, uh, show up at work 9 AM, bang on the dot, leave 5 PM every single day, and the— and these things. And I'm not saying don't work smart and you have to always work long hours and these things, but what I'm often hearing is people want everything, people expect to begin everything, people, yeah, want the lifestyle that they see, but then in the same breath want the work-life balance. And I don't know what your views are on this, but I think it's very easy to share the importance of resting, and of course that's fucking important, and work-life balance. But oftentimes, uh, you can see these people online who are sharing these things that do have their life made out, or they've been successful, or these things. If you were to say, okay, well, what sort of work-life balance do you have in your mid-20s? Well, actually didn't have a fucking partner, I didn't see my kids, did you know what I mean? So I don't know what you think about this, but, uh, I agree, rest is fucking important. But then I don't know if you feel— is an element of it's gone? I don't know. Yeah, they're my thoughts. I don't know, I don't know what you think.

Yeah, and I think— thanks for sharing that. I totally agree with that. Just to give some context, the artist from, uh, Notes to Strangers, it's a guy called Andy Leake on Instagram, went to a New Year's party this year, gave us some artwork, um, to put up around London on non— on properties we wouldn't get in trouble for, by the way, just a reference here. Um, so if you live around London, you might have seen some of the stuff I stuck up. I kept one of those because obviously I do stuff a lot online. But the idea behind that, I think it's even in the words, and what resonated with me there is rest is as hard, not as much, like as, as much, because hard is— we perceive hard as time still, but it's, it's, it's balanced. And it's not saying you have to have an equal amount of time of rest to, to work, it's but what you do within that time that matters as well. So it is because you hear the one, like the classic one is, you know, work hard, party harder, that kind of thing. But that doesn't take into account the kind of rest. And rest isn't just sitting there doing nothing. Rest can also be what we talked about today, like reflection, awareness, like getting to know yourself more and working out how you can then work more efficiently as well from it. But I agree to your point. I think there is this perception now of, you know, seeing things online and thinking, oh God, like, you know, I want that. Like, that seems so easy, like 4-hour working week and all this stuff. Um, and having that perception, but it isn't, you know, it's not matching their goals. And if I— whenever I work with people, if I don't think that it's aligned, I will be honest with them and say, you know, if you want, if you want this but you're only putting this, you're not, you're not going to get there. Um, but again, it comes down to what you can and can't control. And whether it's a manager listening to this or a company, you can only set the scene. And, you know, those kind of people that you want to attract that do want to put that energy in, but also It's not thinking they have to and just holding everyone to the same account, thinking everyone has to put X amount of energy into the same amount as I do. Um, you know, it's having that, that line and understanding that people work in different ways. But it's just when people are— their, their input— sorry, their input isn't matching their expected output.

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, it's that. And I find that super interesting because I almost feel like things come— they're coming full circle in different things. Like, I've written about this a lot just because from my conversations, I almost feel like You used to hear, be successful in sales, be the first one in, last one out. That's almost become— no one does that anymore, or certainly less people do that. So if you actually have a really good fucking work ethic, you've got a competitive advantage now, whereas maybe 5, 10 years ago that was just standard, like that's what everyone would be doing. I don't think many people are doing that right now. So actually having a really solid work ethic has become a competitive advantage. Picking up the phone, that's become a competitive advantage because it's become really familiar to email these things. So again, that's come full circle. And then you can bring it to things just because of the things that I listen to, stuff like almost— I'm really lucky that I'm with someone that I want to build a family with and these things. Maybe you can talk to a bit more, I don't know your, uh, relationship, uh, status. But I'm also hearing everywhere I listen to how dating apps and all these things are failing. And, uh, one of the ways that we could help that is face-to-face speed dating events. Yeah, so I find these things come like full circle, and I just, I do just find that fascinating. And for someone that is always talking to people about mindset, well-being, performance, I do wonder sometimes that all of the positives of people speaking more and, and these things, I guess it's just a natural effect that that also can have a negative impact in terms of people very quick to go 'Yeah, I'm burnt out.' And it's like, well, what do you mean that you're— but I don't know, I just feel like, has it almost— sometimes it could be, has it become very easy because it's so talked about now to point at someone, go, 'Yeah, I'm that,' or 'I feel that'? I don't know, it's— I find it.

Yeah, well, I think that comes down to a lack of education, and it's down to, you know, it's the responsibility of leaders and companies, you know, going back to what you said, first one in, last one out. That just used to be thrown at people, but you didn't tell people what to do. In between. So of course people think, well, hang on, what am I doing? And you've got everyone just sitting around or just, you know, spacing things out, or that kind of Parkinson's law— the longer you give yourself to do something, the longer you'll take to do it. So I think it needs to come down to education as well. If people are saying, oh, I'm burnt out, who's— you know, have they been educated on what burnout is? Are you providing a platform for people to understand this proactively within the business, or are you just waiting to address it reactively? Because yeah, a lot of the time it might not be burnout. And that's one of the things I talk a lot about, is the difference between are you stressed, are you burnt out. But if people don't know, people might assume that's the case. And of course, sometimes it might be that people are trying to use it as an excuse, but that's down to you as a leader for hiring poor people. Like, if you are going to give people a space and environment and give them, you know, encouragement and education on this, if people are going to take advantage of it that's, that's down to you. If I find the wrong kind of people, and the people that won't, I will value that and will appreciate it as well. And this is where I talk a lot about, um, accountability and vulnerability. It's just because you allow people to be more vulnerable, it doesn't make them less accountable. You can still have both. It's not saying you allow people to turn up every day and not be their top performer and not be at their peak performance, but what you are saying is on the days where they don't feel like they can be, it's okay to talk about it and they'll have the support. And anyone who takes advantage of that that's your problem for bringing those people into the business. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it for everyone else that is going to see that as valuable and give as much back then.

Yeah, well put. Chris, how can people connect with you, work with you?

Yeah, so connect to me, Chris Hadfield, on LinkedIn. If you type my name in Google, Chris Hadfield, the famous astronaut, will come up. I get tagged in that probably once or twice a week still. Canadian astronaut, he's on the Canadian bill as well. So yeah, Chris Hadfield, and website is salespsyche, which is p-s-y-c-h-e.co.uk.

Love it. Well, look, really enjoyed that conversation. Keep doing what you're doing. Like, as I said when we first connected, outside looking in, uh, really enjoyed the, uh, just, yeah, seeing the journey that you're going on. Always respect people who are, yeah, building a business which is centered around helping other people and helping people be the best versions of themselves, which really resonates with me. So kudos to you and absolutely love the chat.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.