Chris O'Connell - Hitting rock bottom and how you can build yourself back up.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm very excited to be joined by Chris O'Connell, who has worked in recruitment for 22 years, started his journey at the infamous S3, then went on to start his own recruitment business, which he actually exited in 2013. And then since then, Chris has been an NED and leadership coach across multiple recruitment businesses, and more recently has been very focused on purpose-led leadership coaching and most of all giving back to the industry that no doubt has given a lot to Chris and his life. Chris, thank you for joining me.

Thank you, Hishem. I'm absolutely delighted to be on your podcast. I've watched many of them and, yeah, you're doing a great thing, so thanks very much.

No, thank you, appreciate that. Well, as I was just saying before we started this, we're We're definitely going to talk about Chris O'Connell, the recruitment entrepreneur, exiting a business, why you rose to the top at S3. We'll touch on those things. But I think what I know you're keen on and what I'm definitely keen on, sort of really focusing and honing in on today is Chris O'Connell's mental journey, right? What sort of the mental journey that you've been on throughout this career. The self-discovery that you've been on, and I know that's something you're keen to openly talk about and really keen to dig into. So where I always like to start is how you entered the world of recruitment. So how did you end up at S3? Let's start there.

Well, thanks. I'll keep it brief. I've done this story quite a few times now. I'm trying to condense it down. So it was in 1998. I kind of fell into it like most people did and walked into the S3 office in Maidenhead in Thames Valley as a very shy 21-year-old or something like that. It was, and anybody knows S3, you know, even back then it was very, very kind of hardcore sales.

What did you do before?

Very dynamic. I kind of, I went to college, university, I had like lots of different odd jobs. I worked in a sort of hardware shop, worked in a petrol station. I did work for a call center actually, scheduling engineers around the country, which was interesting. But this was my first kind of major proper job. I actually went to university whilst I was at Esprit as well, part-time. But yeah, I was overwhelmed and really, really impressed with the kind of dynamic of the Thames Valley office, you know, everyone standing up, pinstripe suits, shiny shoes, fast cars, like a boiler room kind of mad environment really. But I took to it like a duck to water, and in the first year as a resource, I was top of the charts and did very well. Why? I think it was— I'll tell you the real reason why. I think when I was young, my mum abandoned me when I was 2, and that gave me the drive. Ask me a question, I'll give you the answer. That gave me the drive to— I really wanted to make something for myself and do something tangible. And even though I was extremely shy and that episode really, really, really did affect me, my mental health and everything else, which I'm happy to talk about. I think I just wanted to prove something to her and to myself that I could do something. And not for one moment did I think it would be recruitment, but I did always want to run my own business. And I just walked in, I just felt this energy and this vibe, and I just thought— it's hard to explain— I just thought, I can do this, even though you know, everyone else was probably so much more advanced, more experienced than me, it just felt right. So I can't really put any more context on it other than that, really.

But a big part was you had a chip on your shoulder, you had a point to prove.

Pretty much, yeah. And that's why, actually, I actually think that why was wrong then. At the time, I thought it was right, um, because I was doing it— I wasn't necessarily doing it for the right reasons, um, and To continue that then, I went to Bristol and became the UK top biller and then the worldwide top biller, billing £600,000 to £700,000 a year, year on year, placing contractors into various different companies. Worked my way up, senior consultant, team leader, manager, started to manage offices across the UK, became the worldwide top biller. And in that 5-year cycle, probably made them about £14 or £15 million. Loved it. If you cut me in half, I'd bleed S3. Absolutely thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. But then I woke up one day and thought, what am I doing? So I set up a business in 2003.

And then— Just quickly, sorry, for context.

Yeah.

How long was your S3 for?

5 years.

5 years. Okay. So you achieved that in 5 years. So just quickly, a lot of recruiters listen to this.

Yeah.

I know we're going to talk about the things that we're talking about, but just quickly, like S3, fiercely competitive. Every person I've had on the show has spoken about the culture where the standards are just really high and everyone's sort of rising to those standards and looking to be the best version of themselves, etc. But like, we've spoken a bit about your why and that you had, you really had a point to prove, which is a big part, the fuel behind Chris O'Connell, like just smashing it. But anything else you think you contribute to? I think people will be wondering like, why, why was, why was Chris able to do that? Like, why over all the people that you competed against, why was you able to sort of build 600-700K consistently?

I think it's something that I thought I've learned recently, but actually I probably had it ingrained in me because of what happened to me. So I didn't put anybody— I didn't deem or approach anybody as superior or didn't approach anybody inferior. So everything I did I treated them as a level playing field to myself. So when I approached a client or manager or director, obviously if they were my boss it was slightly different, but I just kind of— and that kind of really helped me. So for some reason I didn't really have any fear around approaching any person, and also that was indicative of my approach. So business development, picking up the phone, it wasn't the kind of this obvious kind of sales pitch, it was kind of more of a natural conversation. And it was quite funny, actually, you know, the amount of clients I opened up. And my phone manner is— I must sound different, I must sound a lot older than what I do face-to-face. I go and see a client and they say, no, I want to see Chris. It's me. I looked about 12. On the phone, they thought I was about 38 because I just came across with this sort of level of confidence. I guess it was easier over the phone, actually, because over the phone, you know, they can't see you and you can actually change your tone of voice and everything else. And what transpired was, because I was so shy and, you know, I struggled with public speaking, I struggled with client meetings, but I think I did well because, um, because of what happened to me. You know, that, that kind of event that happens to you when you're, you know, a serious trauma can either make you or break you. Um, but it kind of, in my head, it was like, what else can go wrong? Nothing is not much worse than can happen to that. So I thought sort this. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna prove myself to someone. And, um, yeah, that's what I did.

So yeah, that's really interesting because I went— I— it's interesting that because obviously I'm sure now, um, working with recruiters and like, there is that at the beginning, there is just that where I don't know where it comes from, but like you put people on the pedestal, right? And it's like, oh, I'm just calling this client now.

That's it.

Like, so that's really interesting that you really contribute just the lack of fear, just because of what you went through. You put no one— you thought no one was better than you, no one was inferior to you. That's really interesting.

I think that's right, and I think that's, that's what I kind of used as one of my training methods when I, or when I, when I coached and developed people back in the day, because I actually still believe now that a lot of consultants, they put clients on the pedestal too much, and they can happily talk turkey with candidates, but actually they're the same, all human beings. And that, that's indicative of where we are now, I think, in, in, in the current climate around what leaders need to do around treating everybody the same. Perhaps we can talk about that later.

Yeah, okay. So then left, set up your own recruitment business. In what year did you say?

Sorry, 2003. So I set that up with no money really, me and my business partner.

No money? What'd you spend all your money on, mate?

Well, you know, back in the day you earn and you spend, didn't you? I won't tell you everything, but yeah, I was just nice cars and nice clothes.

Okay, so yeah, so we started it with a business partner, you say?

Yeah, and in 10 years we won 14 industry awards, so 3 Best Company awards in a row, which is very hard to get, 3 Virgin Fast Track 100 awards, and I think the reason why we did well, we had a good model, but also it wasn't a one-size-fits-all training approach, so we were very keen to understand each person's motivations because, you know, some people responded to different things. And yeah, we had 75% contract, 25% perm, and in 10 years we got it to 80 staff, 3 offices, £25 million turnover, and we kind of knocked the doors off. It was a really, really exciting business, and we were really on the up. I was kind of Southwest Entrepreneur of the Year, And it was, you know, a very, very, very, very proud moment. But I think during that time, every single milestone that we hit— well, I hit, you know, we hit— it was, um, when I got there, it didn't actually feel as good as what I thought it would. And I'm not sure, I didn't know at the time why that was, and I think that was due to do with my purpose. I think I was— I thought success back then and fulfillment and happiness was actually hitting a number, hitting a milestone, getting a bigger house, getting a bigger car, getting a bigger watch. And whilst that was nice, don't get me wrong, I mean, we went to the Monaco Grand Prix, we did loads of stuff as you would expect, you know, and I was quite exposed and quite—

Let's just talk about this for a second because I think a lot of people can relate to this. And I think this is like, this is sort of the learnings that people go through, right? And I think it's interesting. I know it's just a bit of a flippant comment on what did you spend all your money on, but I think this is linked, right? How many many people sit down with Chris O'Connell, 24-year-old, going, hey Chris, this is what I did when I got all this money. This is what I learned. Maybe this— look, I'm not going to tell you what to do with your money, but this, this is, uh, what I learned, what I went through. Um, spending, getting that, it's great, but it doesn't last, right? So yeah, just talk a bit about how, how you felt, because I think, like, I think that's just really common, right? You hit these milestones, you get these awards, you're you're on the face of it, you're going to, wow, Chris is doing well. And I'm sure you always got that, right, Chris, wow, like da da da. But you know, deep down, you wasn't as happy as you thought you'd be, right? So what did that actually feel like?

Well, I think firstly, in order to get to that level of success, I mean, there are people out there that have done much better than that, but it is a pretty good, pretty good story, pretty good success story. I think you have to put, I had to put my, literally my heart and soul into that. So I kind of lost relationships, I lost family, I lost health, but I still had this insane desire to like, literally no matter what I achieved, I want more and more. It kind of felt there was no, it was a limitless, boundless kind of no fear. And I almost became the victim of my own success, my own ego. And I'll talk about what happened. I think I almost became, I felt I was untouchable in a way. And whilst having that drive, that, that passion to push forward is intrinsically important to get to that level, you can lose sight of reality. So it felt good, but it almost— it didn't— I look back actually and I question whether how much genuine connection I had with my people in terms of that bond and that relationship. It felt good, it felt brilliant, it felt I could buy anything I wanted, but I didn't really have a decent personal life because of it, and it kind of sacrificed a lot of that. And when the business isn't there, what are you left with? And that's one of the things that I've learned.

That's really interesting. So when you say you lost relationships, what are we talking here? Did you have a wife? Did you have I don't know, what sort of came as a sacrifice out of it? Because I think that's also part of it, right? Where a lot of people, again, like, don't talk much about that or don't put hand in hand with, right, if you're going to put those blood, sweat, and tears and sacrifice, that potentially, yeah, your relationships are going to suffer. So what did you lose and what was that like?

Well, if I knew then what I knew now, I would do it differently. I would delegate more and I would spend more time with my family and still have that balance. But I lost quite a number of girlfriends. I lost contact with my son, who I now haven't spoken to for 3 years. And I became very stressed and to a point where I was having panic attacks, so I couldn't actually stand up in front of my own company and do presentations because I was— even though it was a brilliant business, I just kind of I'd quite often go into my car of an afternoon, sleep for 20 minutes because I was so tired and drained by it all. So all that glistens isn't gold. So that's the misconception people have of leaders, you know. You know, although I was a completely self-made millionaire, I was born in a caravan and then on a council estate, you know, nothing was given to me, completely self-made. And people don't realize what it takes to get there, but when you get there isn't actually as good as what you think it is unless you find that balance. So I think I lost my way really because I became quite arrogant, quite egotistical. I'm not saying everyone does this, but you can't— I put my suit on and became this kind of person that wasn't me. So you have to be this kind of resilient, stoic, inspirational, motivational, ruthless kind of person. Oh my God, I mean, some of the stuff I did in work was phenomenally ruthless, I should say. I'd come home and kind of like be completely different. So now I'm encouraging leaders to be themselves and still get that good performance. And I think back in the day, that old approach did kind of work. Now it's all about compassion, empathy, understanding, being a human being on a level playing field. So I've completely changed my mindset on that.

But yeah, so just on this, did people know, like, did people know that Chris was feeling like this?

No, not at all.

Why?

Because I would, at that, at that moment in my career, there was no, there was no way on earth I'd allow anyone to think there was any weakness. God, heaven forbid. I've changed that now, but it was, it was just kind of like— I wouldn't say it was management by fear, I think, because it wasn't. It was more kind of like, you know, I wouldn't take any prisoners. And if they did know the real me, actually, I probably would have got even better results out of them. But no, I was very focused on just driving performance. And don't get me wrong, I mean, I was quite good on one-on-one, and I was very good at sort of reviews and bringing out the best of people, understanding the soft side of their skills. But I wouldn't necessarily ever let my guard down. So I think if people knew really some of the mental health issues I've had and the problems I've had, they might see me differently. So on that point, actually, I think people misunderstood me, rightly so, because of the way I acted. But in that position, and when you've got mental health, or when you're a leader, when you have to, when you have to kind of perform under, under duress, For me, I found it difficult to engage with people. Sometimes I was quite shy in social situations, which is quite a paradox being a successful business leader. And that kind of led to people thinking, is he arrogant? Does he not like me? Am I not worthy to speak to him? It's kind of like all these different things. And I think back now, why don't I just be my bloody self? Why didn't I just, you know, open up and be vulnerable? Because then that would create that back from the other person, then we can have a real conversation.

And And also then, what impact this— what did you have? No, was there no one that you could be Chris around besides yourself? Because as you said, you had to sacrifice. That's also the hard part, right? There's no one else then that you could get more comfortable or used to letting your guard down. That's interesting. So what, what I was going to say, um, so I'm just trying to sort of— so when did this start to change then? So obviously you then exited your business in 2013.

Yeah.

What did that feel like?

Well, I mean, a private equity partner came in and there was a 2-year kind of phase. I became the CEO and then I eventually exited. So that was a difficult, challenging period because it was a different animal, really. It was more geared around arriving at a number, and we kind of— the soul and the culture of the business wasn't as important. It was to me, but it wasn't necessarily to them. So I eventually exited that in 2014 and I took 4 years out, 3.5, 4 years out. Honestly, it was a huge contrast from, I say this all the time, but you know, from being a very successful CEO of my own world of recruitment to then kind of, you know, watching Supermarket Sweep or Judge Judy every day is a big, you know, it's a big, big thing, man. And that really, really kind of, my mental health dipped, you know.

So what, did you have a plan? What was like the, so what was the, 'cause I think a lot of people think about this, right? I think, I mean, you don't hear before, more in your time, you'd hear, yeah, I'm going to start my own recruitment business, I'm going to sell it. I don't think that's as common now. It's definitely achievable from the conversations I had with people, but like, what, like, just talk to us about what sort of Chris's vision was for this deal. Like, was it the, right, I'm going to sell this business and I'm going to sit on the beach, like, I'm going to be happy, where, do you know what I mean? What was the, what was you hoping it would be? And then we can talk about the actual reality.

Sure. So, I mean, I think it was around 2010, my kind of business partner decided that, you know, he wanted to exit the business, which is fine. I think he just had his third child. We just opened up Manchester, so we had 3 offices, and it was kind of like at this point in his life he wanted to exit that, which was great, but it was a bit of a surprise to me. So then we had to find a vehicle or partner to buy him out, which we eventually did. I chose a particular private equity vehicle that I felt would accelerate the business even faster over a 3 to 5 year cycle and get it to a certain number that would enable me to literally not have to work again. So the plan was when I engaged with that private equity partner was to do that.

No, it didn't work again.

Oh, kind of not, I'll never say that.

But you know, but a lot of people say that though. Mate, a lot of people think that. Right, I'm going to do this so then I don't have to think about, like, or have to like, You're not alone in that. So many people will have that visualization or thought.

So yeah, but, or at least certainly put me in a position where I did, if I wanted to, I didn't have to.

You'd be financially free. You wouldn't have to, you would no longer, you'd not stress at all about money. You'd be able to provide for the people you want to, all those things.

Absolutely. So, but it didn't quite work out like that for various reasons. So I exited the business 2 years later and, um, kind of the financial aspect wasn't where it should have been. So it kind of— there wasn't really a plan based on that because, A, I was completely drained and affected by losing my— effectively being out of the industry and losing my business and losing— because before this happens, you know, my vision was planned was to literally go global. And, you know, God knows where that business would be now if that didn't happen. So that was kind of taken away from me. Which was a huge, huge, huge hit to me mentally. And I kind of lost my way really. And I can talk to you about that journey. And then I've moved away from that now and I completely changed my mindset around what's important to me. So let's talk about that.

So for context, you exited the business, but you didn't quite hit the numbers that were required for you to get what, as much as a payout that you initially hoped for? But you exited it and then— yeah, talk to us then.

Well, I think that, um, uh, yeah, I mean, the business was built on, um, our culture and our soul and our camaraderie. And, you know, the two founders built that up. Um, when one of the founders goes and a completely new partner comes in with a completely different agenda there were some fractions, and therefore kind of the business kind of disbanded a little bit. So the whole objective where the business was going had completely changed, and it just reached a point where it was best that, you know, it was— it was— it went in a different direction. So I had to take some time out anyway because I was completely burnt out. And that's what I did. So I was left with wondering what the hell I was going to do next, really. And it took me 3 years to kind of get out of that malaise of kind of my hopes and dreams of what I thought would be success kind of taken away from me. But I'm much more happier now. I'm— now, I was a millionaire at 25, 26, you know, you know, buying 40 grand watches for fun kind of situation, whatever, you know. So now, you know, I've got nowhere near as much money now, but I'm rich in purpose, fulfillment. My purpose now is to give something back to the industry, to help them with, or at least share my story around some of my mistakes and some of my pitfalls, and also some of the you know, what is success? Success isn't necessarily a number or an object. To me, success is actually being happy in yourself but also providing a service to others. And that's what I'm trying to do at the moment.

Yeah, yeah, I'm really excited to get into that. I think what I just want to— what I'd love you to just talk a bit about, because I think a lot of people might be able to relate to this, Chris, and If you think totally different circumstances, but how many people's purpose has been taken away over the last 3 or so months, right? How many people before they went on furlough made the time to work out who they are, what their drivers are, why they do what they do? Like, how many people just got, just got up and did what they did, right? How many people made the time to sort of self-discover and, and those things, right? So then for no fault of your own because of what's going on, I'm then taking away your job and taking away your routine. So I think, I think there'll be a lot of people that can relate, Chris, on like that journey that you went on, right? Because like you didn't, you wasn't straight away found out that that's what I wanted to do, this is my purpose. So it'd be great to just, if you could just talk a bit about the sort of hardship that you had to go through or some of the dark times that you had to experience or from those dark times, you start to see the light and work these things out. But what, where was you before? Like, what was going on? And what did Chris's life look like before you got to the point where you are now?

Well, I think I had, it got to the point where I had some addiction issues as well, because I didn't know what to do with my life. So I had more time than I ever had before. And when you're used to kind of just everything being successful and having the right money and hitting all the targets, you're left with nothing. It kind of like does play with your mind. So I was depressed. I had some addiction issues, wasn't motivated, very lethargic. Lots of things, mate. You know, no, no, gambling, kind of love addiction around just, you know, different aspects of— maybe cut that bit out. You know, shopping, buying stuff, just because obviously doing what I'm doing, you know, hitting every target, that became addictive. So I believe I could do anything and to get that kind of dopamine hit around. Yeah, you know, it was going out and buying stuff I didn't really need or going to really expensive restaurants just for the sake of it or holidays or just to get that kind of fulfillment. But what I wasn't doing was engaging with my friends or doing any personal development. They kind of spiraled down and I just kind of let myself go really. And it was only up until last year, actually, about 12 months ago. I was divorced a year and a half ago, left the family home. And that was really the catalyst. Not that, you know, I'm not saying that this year was the best year because everything else was worse. This year has been good to me because I had time on my own to reflect, to look at myself and go, actually, well done, mate. You know, don't be— don't keep beating myself up too much, that, you know, I'd never give myself any praise. What I achieved has been amazing. So instead of looking at all the negative, because a lot of the reasons why the business went well was down to me, a lot of reasons why the business didn't go well was down to me as well, and I'll happily admit that. But I think the turning point was having that time on my own, taking that time out and thinking, hang on a second, I'm all right, I could do something here. But what Why? What can I do? And here I am, after 4 years out in the wilderness, here I am talking about mental health, about purpose, about vulnerability, about courage. Completely different animal to what I was like before. And I think what I'm trying to say is, probably not very well, is losing my mom, being abused as a child, which I haven't talked about, becoming an addict, losing my business, losing my son, like 5— there's loads of other stuff. There's 5 things there that would destroy most people. But actually, I see those as a gift in a way, because it's really helped me understand me as a person. But also, I'm using those experiences to a positive way, and actually, I now know I'm a very resilient person. And sometimes adversity can actually help you, help you to help others. So I don't ever want to experience those again, but I kind of now, I see it as a strength really. I'm almost pleased it's happened to me.

What do you think made you change the way you look at those things? Because look, this came up with a chap that we sort of really sort of dug into his darkest days and the journey that he's been into, a guy called Chevy Ruff. And like, he didn't— so what he recognized, which he sort of openly spoke about, was Again, he sort of got to a place where he was aiming for, got there, felt empty. It was when he took his first antidepressant pill. And so the journey he went on was recognizing that he didn't actually— he was always on the move, always wanted to do something, which meant he didn't have the time or freedom to think about his demons, which was his childhood and these types of things. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, clearly you didn't always look at those things that you just described in, in the way that you do now. Right? So I guess, what do you think helped you have that perspective or change your perception of, well, actually these are a gift, they're not things that— do you know what I mean? Because I think that's the part that people find most difficult, right? Is that my past defines me and these things, these things happen to me because I wasn't good enough or whatever, right? And clearly you've been on that own journey of recognizing that, well, actually no, this is how they've helped me and this is it, they are in a positive way. I don't know, anything around that?

Yeah, I think so, mate. I think, um, I think it's the loss, you know, the, the quantum and the, the amount and the, of the loss. And so I'm not saying that you have to go out and lose your family and your business to get purpose, but I think, I think, I think sometimes when you are at rock bottom, um, you know, it's the only way to snap you out a bit. And actually, I think if, if those things didn't happen to me, I might be dead somewhere or whatever, you know. And that sounds a bit dramatic. But yeah, I think, I think, but also having that time, I think, I think, you know, where leaders fall down is that they don't give themselves that personal time. They don't speak to enough people around them, don't have mentors. You know, I've hired 4 coaches this last 3 or 4 weeks on various aspects of where I see I can improve. And that's the other thing, I think leaders— well, I certainly got into a position where, you know, I thought I didn't need any coaching or development. And I think who coaches the coach, who leads the leader, who, you know, you've got to have people around you, you've got to talk to people But it's a very lonely place as a leader sometimes, and if you've got no one to talk to, or if you feel you've got no one to talk to, how the hell are you going to change that? And actually what you need is— you don't need friends to go, well done, mate, because I had lots of people around me going, oh, look at you, you're brilliant, all that kind of stuff. But I didn't have anyone saying, mate, actually you're a bit of a dick. Yeah, I mean, because I was at that time, and, uh, you know, that's, that's what you need. And I think No matter how successful you are, there's always someone that's earned more money or done something bigger and just done something better. And I just wish back then I had that more human element to me, which I've got now. You can't change the past.

So what, as you, as you started to, when you ended up spending time on your own, time to process and sort of get to the place you are now, what I guess what really helped you during that period then? What became sort of non-negotiable for you? Did you start to form some good habits? Did you start building new relationships with people that really helped. Like, I don't know, what do you think was really impactful in sort of really helping shape where you are today as you sort of climbed out of that darkness?

It's not easy when you've got kids, wives, dogs, you know, all sorts of things. But I think what the catalyst was to actually say, look, I need to put myself first, not in a selfish way, but in a selfless way, right? Whereby I need to have this time. To look at myself, do therapy, whatever it is, you know, understand, spend some time and work out what I want to do and love myself actually. And once I achieved that, honestly, this last 12 months, some of the stuff that's happened to me has been absolutely phenomenal. So just things like looking in the mirror pretty much every morning and looking at myself and saying, actually, mate, you're all right, that kind of stuff. Talking to myself is a bit weird, but actually it works. And just kind of saying, actually, what, you know, looking at the facets. So instead of spending 98.99% of my time focused on work, balancing that out— work, personal life, exercise, diet, nutrition— looking at 7 or 8 different kind of elements of my life and rating them out of 10. Work's 10, personal relationships 1, exercise 2. What? Ah, this might be why I'm not finding that balance. And then actually switching the dial and then saying, look, 'Right, this next 2 hours I'm going to listen to a podcast,' and put it in the diary. 'I'm going to commit to doing exercise,' and all this kind of stuff. And then actually writing down the list of my friends I haven't spoken to them, you know. No wonder, instead of me getting pissed off with them for not— when was the last time I did something to them? When was the last time I reached out to them? And looking at every, almost everything else apart from work, because I believe that a lot of performance-related issues in work is only related to stuff outside of work. So you can have the best brand, the best training, the best KPIs, all that shit. But if the mindset purpose isn't right outside of work, that person isn't going to perform. So it's all that kind of stuff, basically looking at everything else. And that sounds quite selfish, but it's not. Once I'd done all that, honestly, I found I had more time. I was more engaging, I was more affectionate, I was more compassionate, and actually 10 times more productive.

Yeah, you worked on yourself, whereas you didn't have time for that before. You just knew what you had to do to keep leveling up your game, to hit the numbers or whatever. That makes complete complete sense. A quote that sort of has always stuck with me, which I think is so powerful on the part around loving yourself— I think that's so important to highlight— that is, no one— the quote is, "No one can love you more than you love yourself." And that really stuck with me, right? Because I've experienced that in relationships, and like, I've just always thought that, like, for me, thinking of relationships and how that relates is like, for me, there's nothing more attractive in a female if you know deep down how much they love themselves.

Absolutely.

Rather than seeing the sort of what they're trying to be or what they— they only see their downfalls or whatever. So mate, that, that— I completely get that. That makes complete sense. You actually made the time during that period to recognize, well, right, no, because I am good enough. And that's, that's so common that people don't make the time to do that.

I think so, mate. I think on that point about the relationship, so, you know, I attracted the wrong sort of woman. In my life because I was probably too— you could see me a mile off. Although I was very successful, I probably had kind of, you know, twat written on my forehead in terms of like, I mean, so I was so obviously vulnerable and so obviously kind of putting on this mask and this acting to an extent where, you know, the people that I attracted— yeah, attracted— were the wrong type. And now it's a different ball game. So on that point, you're right, it's not just You know, you're not even capable of attracting the right people or things in your life if you're not in the right mindset.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

So let's talk a bit about the things that you've been in the sort of last 12 months, what you've been seeing, talking about why you think now much why actually leadership— yeah, your power is being vulnerable, your power is being human. So I guess what are the sort of On that front, sort of the lens that you have, what are the common things you see in leaders that you think, well, actually, yeah, I don't know, what are the things that you think that leadership is missing out on? Or I don't know, what have been the common things that you've been seeing?

Yeah, I think going are the days where leaders or companies are going to be motivating people or pushing people on a number, a target, and a profit number. Obviously that's important, but I think, so I've walked into, as an NED, I've walked into many businesses and they've got their 5 purposes or their 5, you know, measures or values, whatever it is, integrity, purpose, all this kind of stuff, and I'm thinking, mate, you can't even spell the word integrity. A lot of it is taken from others, it's not actually real. So I think that there's a huge shift around because of what's happened with lockdown and COVID, half the workforce aren't ready to literally come back to work mentally, and I'm hopeful that a lot of leaders will understand that and have more compassion and empathy towards that because they've been in that situation themselves. But what I do think will happen is that I think there'll be less of a hierarchical kind of structure to a company where it's the leader at the top dictating. I think there needs to be, and there will be, more of a shift towards a community-led way of running a business. Don't get me wrong, there needs to be leaders, but I think, I think in order for the companies to get the best out of their people, they're going to— they are going to have to be a bit more human. They are going to have to understand their compassions, their mindset, their mental health, their purpose, and their why to get the best out of them. Because even, even on a macro level, when you train someone, right, if you just bring people into a room and do a role play 'half the room will hate it and half won't,' or presentation. It's about understanding what receptors each person has, and that isn't just an archetype, one-size-fits-all, 'this is our company, this is what we're going to do.' People respond to things in different ways, so I think leaders will get the best engagement out of being a bit vulnerable, being a bit open with their feelings, not too much, but just having that human side. You know, I had an example. I spoke to a colleague last week actually, and I, I quit— it was bugging me. I quizzed her, uh, I brought her in actually in the pub and said, uh, what was all that about 3 months ago in terms of, um, you know, your, your performance, your lack of motivation? And I did it in a way, look, I'm doing this from the point of view where I'm trying to help you. My job is to guide you and drive you forward. Where have I gone wrong as a leader kind of thing? And I was blown away. She said, look, you know, I thrive and I flourish, and I'm really impressed. I love your leadership. It's absolutely brilliant. The reason why it was going well is because I felt I was on a level playing field with you in terms of communication. I could talk to you. You were accessible. I wasn't in fear of you. But towards the end of that kind of project, it became like I was scared to pick up the phone to you, and it was a little bit like management by fear. But effectively, she was scared of me. And I was like, wow, yeah. So instead of me thinking it was her, it was actually my style that was causing her, you know. And, you know, 9 times out of 10, you take it with a pinch of salt, thinking, yeah, whatever. But actually, I think about it, she was right. So it's that kind of thing where you're being in tune and being able to put yourself on that, as I said earlier, put yourself on that same position to then get the real deal. And that's the thing I'm looking to kind of push forward, really.

Why do you think that can help you become a better leader?

As I just said, because people— it's more of an all-round approach to actually get understanding your people intrinsically. Because you can push and push and push and say make more calls or do more stuff and do more stuff, but people don't want that anymore. People want to have a connection and an understanding, and it's about giving something back. It's a different form of motivation as well, and I think that there are a lot of leaders that are going to be in trouble in terms of how to— it's a lot about self-branding as well. So as you know, LinkedIn and, you know, a lot of companies are forced to tell their— sell their brand via a story. And a lot of leaders don't have necessarily the capability to do that because all they know is about, look at our company, look at— and it's actually, no, it's about engagement. People are buying from people. You know, I've got some one or two-man businesses that deal with huge accounts because it's a one-on-one engagement. So they need to adopt that with their employees, but also some of their sales approach. So it makes them a better leader because they'll get more business and they'll get more engagement. Yeah.

So I guess what's coming up for me is sort of, if I'm a leader listening to this right now and I'm going, you know what, Chris, you're completely right, No, I, I, I do under— I consciously, I do understand that that's going to help me get more out of my people.

Yeah.

But how do I start? Like, if that— like, do you know what I mean? You was that person, right? You never was that person to sort of have those vulnerable conversations to go, actually, where can I improve? What did I do wrong previously? Right. So this is the thing, right? What— how can you start that shift in? Because a lot of people may listen and know that that's like— that's important, right?

But yeah, yeah.

They have no idea where to start because they've always done what they've done and da da da. So I guess, I don't know, what have you seen or what have you— what has sort of helped the people you've worked with or what you've seen, what's helped people start to make that shift?

I think, I think, um, what I would do and what I have done is, um, bring everyone in one-on-one and have that one-to-one, even if it's 20 minutes, half an hour. The power of that as a starting point, you know, rather than delegating it out you know, bring your most junior person in, bring everyone in one-to-one and have that conversation with them. And pretty much like I just explained, say, look, you know, I'm bringing you in because, you know, COVID's been difficult for me and my family, you know, something like that where it's not kind of like, it's more of a human conversation, maybe not even talk about business and just kind of have that conversation and build it out from there.

I would do. And I think, but I think there's got to be an element where you've got to be willing to say, 'How can I improve as a leader?' Yeah, absolutely. Not everyone's willing to do that.

Well, they're not, but in all— but that's like one of those, as I said earlier, you know, who, who coaches the coach, who leads a leader, you know? I mean, even the great coaches, Tony Robbins or whatever, he's got, he's got his own coach, you know? And it's about— it's easy for someone like me to say I continually focus on improvement and telling it to others, but where I've evolved is, and this is where I am, where I am now, I'm aware that I need to be doing that for myself, and I wouldn't ask someone to do something I'm not prepared to do myself. So I think it is that first step is always the hardest. You know, people say they want to change, they want to have purpose, they have got integrity. Unless you actually make action, you haven't. So it is saying, look, if I want to achieve that, I am going to have to take off my leadership cap, take off my coat of armor, and bring in Karen from accounts and say, actually, what can I do to help? I feel that, I feel that whatever.

Yeah, no, I just think, yeah, I love that. And I just think it's obviously part of that challenge as well, is like, if I'm a leader in a business and there's no, I don't know, there's no other leaders for me to look up to or learn from, or I can see they're doing, they're approaching like that, that could, that could, you're completely right. And I think that's also part of the challenge, isn't it, where If there's 4 leaders and you've got 3, the old Chris, and you've got the 4th, which is like, right, I'm really prepared to become a better leader. Over the last 3 months, I've recognized that I haven't been great at communicating to my team when they've been demotivated. I've found it hard. Clearly, I don't know, I need to upskill myself here. Look, the coach, the coach. I think that's part of it, isn't it? Because like, who's helping these people become better leaders? Not everyone has that support or, I don't know. I think that's part of it, isn't it?

I think that's right. I think absolutely. And the only way to do that is actually— so again, over the last— so when I was running my business, I don't think I was really in contact with many of my peers and my colleagues around. It was all kind of this competition thing, wasn't it? And you wouldn't let your guard down. Now I think that's completely changing, where like, you know, there's a community of like you guys. There's lots, you know, you've got other people in your sphere and you all share ideas, and that's what I'm trying to get to.

So I think Yeah, no, no, I think, I think, I think that if you're listening right now and go, you know what, I'm that person, ask for help. That there's plenty of people that will, that probably going through what you're going through, that would be willing to help, right? I think that's the thing, that you'd be surprised how many people are willing to help, even if that's to reach out to you, or you've seen someone on LinkedIn that sort of looks like he's leading his team in the right way, drop them a message, say, hey, 'Hey, Chris, look, love the way that, from what I can see, the love, the way you're leading your team, your business through this period. I want to become a better leader. How can we go about helping each other?' Where is— I guess reach out. Yeah, reach out for help.

I think so. I think, you know, what I've learned on LinkedIn actually is that instead of always promoting or sending out a video of my own stuff, absolutely comment on other people's stuff. Say, 'What I'm really impressed with, that's the range of zoom,' whatever. And that's where I think things are changing. Certainly with the people who are changing or want to get something out of this. If you continue with this insular, no, this is our company, we can't bring any other kind of, you know, you are actually going to get swallowed up. And I think it has changed. And I think as well, you know, put a funny video out of yourself. Do something a little bit different. Give something back to the sector. And actually, you know, I've— going back to this superior/inferior thing, you know, I've recently had conversations with the most qualified brain science neuroscientists because I'm about this mental health thing I'm doing and held court with them because I did manage to do that. But also having conversations with what you deem as much more junior people and learning that as well. So it doesn't necessarily have to be people at your level as well, you know. That's true. Put yourself out there and just— it's about if you see something good that benefits you, don't have the mindset, oh, better not comment on that because they'll get the credibility. No. I go the other way, and if I— don't matter who it is, if it's good, I will say, well done, mate, bloody brilliant, you know, can I learn something from you?

So look, spoken a lot about your journey, leadership. Let's talk about— yeah, so obviously, um, someone that we both know, someone that's been on this show and people know, Rhonda D'Ambrosio. Yeah, on a sort of great mission, mental health and recruitment, non-for-profit organization. If you don't know sort of who she is and what she's doing definitely check that out. Obviously, that's something you're going to be part of. Yeah. Um, let's talk about this then before we finish. Like, yeah, obviously you and I both know, and people listening, you should know, that one of the biggest killers of young men is mental health, suicide, right? This is important. Recruitment industry is made up of a lot of men, and I think for me it's like— and this is why we're doing this, right, which is why I'm so grateful for you to be so open and talking about your journey, because I think It starts with communication. Things can really change in your life when you talk. And, um, but like, how, how do you think we can get more men to be vulnerable, open up about their mental challenges, the things that you kindly shared with us on this podcast? That's not easy for people, and they've never had to do that. And like, how do you think so we can start to move the needle?

Well, you're right, mate. It's a massive thing, isn't it? I think, you know, I'm delighted to be an ambassador for Mental Health in Recruitment. Honestly, I think it's the best thing since sliced bread. I think it's brilliant. I think it's going to be transformative, and I'm glad you're part of it as well, mate, because you've got a lot to offer. I think, in answer to your question, it's encouraging people like me to keep doing this, and I personally will continue to share. I did a podcast for that, for Ronda, yesterday, which is coming out, and it's It's quite impactful, actually. I'll go really deep into some of the stuff that's happened to me. And it's buddying up, it's communicating with people like me and you and other men who are doing something. And it's that— and that's what happens when you've got mental health, yeah, you feel it's a burden to speak about it. So I've got different WhatsApp groups with just men on it, just my mates and other people. It's, you know, instead of looking at Facebook or whatever, look at mindfulness, look at mindset, look at mental health, read up on it, and just try and identify people that are in the same situation and ask questions. Ask questions of your friends as well and say, look, how are you doing? How are you doing? Or even say, you know, when you're asked a question, how you doing? Yeah, I'm all right, mate. Why don't you answer, actually, mate, I've had a really bad day yesterday. I just want to let you know that I was feeling pretty anxious yesterday. And it's— what you'll find is the other person is probably feeling— has had that same shit as well. I know that sounds easy to say, but I think that showing vulnerability is courage. It's not weakness. I know it used to be, but it's— honestly, to stand up or talk or even doing this now, you know, is— I think it can bring so much fulfillment in other people as well. So I think it's also, you know, be careful what you're absorbing as well. So I, you know, I listen to lots of podcasts around mental health and courage and leadership. So if you really, if you really are, if you really do have mental health or you are feeling anxious or whatever that is, the only way to do it is, is I think look at what you're absorbing. So are you reading the Facebook news? Are you, or are you actually looking and reading stuff that might help you? Look at the people around you as well. I think, I think I put a video on LinkedIn last week around You know, the people around you can have a dramatic effect on how you feel. So some of the friends that you associate with, are they encouraging you? Are they supporting you? Are they reaching out to you? If the answer is no, honestly, why are you spending that— you know, do you always make the first move? And really, I did an assessment almost of my friends and my people around me and thought, hold on a second, you know, you're not— you've never been there for me. Or actually, the guy that always— or the girl that always is Every time that person's been there for me, I haven't been there. And it's like, actually, so it's what you're absorbing, the people that surround you, being open and being compassionate to others as well. Because I think every single person alive today has some form of mental health problem. And that's the other thing, I don't want it— when they say mental health issues, I don't think it's an issue, it's reality. You know, there's no— the stigma is going. In fact, Anyone who says they haven't got mental health issues, I think they actually have problems, more problems than someone who has.

Well, I think, I think that the perfect comparison analogy is we all have physical health. You look at someone that might be overweight or might tell you that they're ill all the time or whatever, and they go, oh, they've got some physical challenges or like actual physical, um, issues. And it's just the same as your mind. Like, it's just the exact— for me, that's just a perfect analogy. And it's just, it's just so much harder because we can't see it. And that's one of the challenges. But no, I love that. I think that making the time to audit what you're consuming, couldn't agree with that more. So important. I think it's so easy. It's so easy just to get used to what you consume and sort of the people you look at and what have a real audit of what, like who you'll be surprised how many people have an influence on your day that you don't realize. Why am I following that person on Instagram? Whenever I see their pictures, they make me feel inferior and they make me feel not good enough. Whatever.

What—

okay, what else? It's about stopping yourself in those moments and going, why am I following this person? Why am I doing that? And I think the friends part also, I think that's one of the hardest things, right? Is like this, like if me and you are friends or have been friends for the last 15 years and I've been on this journey, and through that I'll go, actually, I'm not sure how Chris is a good— like, how much of a good friend he is, how much supportive he is, blah blah blah. There's so many things to back up why we should stay friends, even though deep down I might know you're not like for where I am. Because that's one of the hardest things, right? The friends part. So that's something that I've been really grateful for, is that the sort of friends that I have, we've been on this journey together where 5 years ago all I cared about was what girls thought of me and all I cared about was girls. But, and then we've been through this journey together of this self-discovery, of working on ourselves, actually thinking about why are we on this planet, what are we doing, having those conversations, being vulnerable, and Unfortunately, not everyone has that capability of going on that journey with friends. The person you was friends with 5 years ago is sort of still the same person and cares about the same things. It's difficult to break off from stuff like that. It's hard.

It is hard, but then you've only got one life. And, you know, as you get older, you know, people reveal themselves to you and you reveal yourself to them as well. So don't get me wrong, this isn't a one-way street. You know, I've lost friends that, you know, they've kind of done that to me because I haven't done it to them. So the best way to look at is that I— if I treated my— the rest of my life how I treat my businesses in terms of the focus, the structure, and the importance of it, I'd be all right. So what I'm trying to say is I almost now treat the rest of my life as a business in terms of kind of trying to maximize each of those elements. So the personal life, the friends, the personal development, the exercise, and all that kind of stuff. And if I kind of check myself in and say, actually, mate, when was the last time you exercised? When was the last— all that kind of stuff. And what you'll find is you'll have a better balance. So yeah, sometimes, you know, I can be— why can I be so ruthless in business and very, very weak and not be able to set boundaries on personal life? And I think unless those two meet, so it's almost like I need to be less ruthless and less hard and more compassionate in business and less compassion, less empathy in my per— it's one of those where, you see what I mean? I think that's the way to look at it, you know what I mean?

Definitely. Okay, well look, what, um, what, what are you excited about then, Chris, before we finish? What sort of— obviously getting involved with, um, Ronda, you've got a few, like, I don't know what— how, how do you view— I think it's amazing, Jen, you've been on last 12 months. Glad that you feel good about the last 12 months. How are you feeling about the next 12 months?

Mate, I'm probably the most excited I've ever been, actually. Where I am now in terms of where I feel I am in terms of my purpose and my ability to actually do something tangible, I'm really excited about this mental health initiative. It's probably the most exciting thing that's happened to me. I'm chuffed about my NED stuff, about giving back and coaching leaders, and I think, I think there's a lot of transformative change around people's mindsets. So I'm just excited to be alive and helping people and pushing people forward. And I think the world's my oyster, really. And I don't— if you ask me what I want to do, you know, I'm an open book. I'm willing to collaborate with anyone. But I'm— although there's a lot of adversity and a lot of depression around, or negativity around where we are, there's also a lot of hope and a lot of positivity around different ways of thinking. So I'm very excited about giving back, showing what I know and helping others.

Love that, Chris. And look, before I sort of give you an opportunity to give sort of parting words, like, just want to say, yeah, big thanks for being super open and honest on this show. I really appreciate it. I know it's not easy. Well, so yeah, I guess parting words for anyone that listened to this, that might be going through some challenges right now mentally or sort of listen to this and has resonated with it and I don't know what would sort of your parting words be I guess if you was to communicate to recruiters, recruitment business owners that are listening to this that are sort of identified with your story and your journey?

I think, look, we're all human beings, everything, no matter what level we're at, we're all going through some shit and we've all got some more shit to go through and the only way to actually get through that I think is to let's try and put ourselves on a bit more level playing field, try and reach out to as many people as possible and show up as well. So, you know, put yourself like I'm, like I'm doing. This isn't easy for me, do you know what I mean? You know, I could have done the archetypal, you know, look at my business achievements, all that kind of stuff. And I think just be a human being, you know, don't be afraid to speak to someone that you deem as superior because they're not. But also don't be afraid to reach out to someone who's in trouble. You know, and it sounds a bit cheesy, but I just think just try and put others first if you see them struggling. But also, if you're struggling as well, you know, like I said earlier, take a step back and say, look, do I have to take one step back to go five forward? Do I have to park everything? Do I have to remove some friends? Do I have to dedicate an hour and a half, no matter what? Say to your wife, no matter what, I want this hour and a half to do my have that window of opportunity where you can reflect and think and reassess, and then everything else should fall into place.

Amazing, Chris. Thank you, it's been a pleasure.

No worries, mate. Really enjoyed that. Good to see