Christian Hoyle - Mindset is KING

So you've got the optimist and the pessimist. Many people will tell you I'm a bit of a half-empty guy. We are what we say we are. We're all the same, right? All human beings, all born the same, all got the same minds. It's all happening the same. But some of us have been more optimistic, yeah? And it's a habit. It's a thought habit. You're not always that. Is every one of my thoughts positive and yeah, this is good and it's best for me?

No.

People who suffer from negativity, after they've said something that is negative, they must then finish it with something more positive that's gonna happen. And if they do that in every single sentence that they do, that'll become a habit.

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Christian Hoyle. This is a slightly different episode, but a very important one. One of the biggest factors to your success within recruitment is your mindset, and Christian Hoyle is a performance and mindset coach. I've really enjoyed watching his journey from afar sharing some great content on LinkedIn, and I was really excited to have him in the studio. And what we spoke about in this episode was everything from unlocking your inner confidence, why we have limiting beliefs, and ultimately how we can build the mindset, the resilience that we need and want to achieve the goals that we want in our careers and in our personal life. Enjoy the episode. Chris, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for inviting me, mate. Mega excited to be here. Thanks so much.

Yeah, look, thank you so much for making the effort. Uh, yeah, had a bit of a, a challenge— challenging one. You got the call-up, you showed up. Had a couple of people cancel for things that they couldn't control, so I'm super excited to be sitting down with you. As I said the other week, really enjoyed, uh, connecting with you via screen. Got your energy, picked up on it really quick. And as I said, I've really enjoyed seeing over the last— probably definitely the last like 6 or so months, um you popping up on my LinkedIn, seeing videos of you getting recruiters to present, share things. So just to add everyone— just to give everyone a bit of context before we get into this, uh, it's going to be a slightly different one, this conversation, but I think it's an absolutely important one for me. From all these conversations, the people that I meet in our industry, one of the, the biggest reasons why people are successful is down to their mindset. And Chris, I know I was looking at your journey. You've, you've been on a really interesting journey from education to, uh, founding a clothing company, uh, to now obviously over the last 3 years being a performance and mindset coach. And why I'm excited to sit down with Chris is, yeah, over the last couple of years you found yourself working with a bunch of different recruitment companies, working with some amazing people in our industry, even have your son in, in the recruitment industry. Uh, and we are today going to talk about what has Chris learned since working with our industry, what are the common pitfalls when it comes to mindset, what what does Chris find himself helping a lot of recruiters with. I want to get his frameworks, uh, principles that he lives by, and the things that, uh, he finds really help people maximize their potential in our industry, uh, from a mindset perspective. So that's what we're going to talk about today. But I guess, as we always like to do, we like to kick it off with a million-pound question. Let's get Chris's take on what he believes are the common characteristics and traits of a highly successful recruiter in today's markets. Let's start there.

So, uh, yeah, I'm totally excited to be here, mate. Just a quick one before we start. I learned a lot about you in a very short period of time because I observed your actions, because it's not what we say, it's what we do. And how you went about getting me here, the organizations, the questions you asked, the questions that you gave me for today were just on point so much. They made me start thinking in a different way, and I saw, I saw what you've got. It's really impressive. So yeah, thanks.

Appreciate that.

So I'm only going to read off the list once, but it was quite exciting. The first question was characteristics of a recruiter. I thought of my son. How nice is that? It's pretty cool. So like enthusiasm, eagerness, without a doubt. You've got to be enthusiastic every day. Every day is a new day and you need to start it and be enthusiastic. As soon as you've lost that, you've lost the mojo. You're not going to be able to keep going forward. Bounce back. Because I always say this little thing: this is life, this is life, this is recruitment. Just like that. The highs are great and the lows are so low, and you've got to be able to bounce back from every one of them. Self-confidence, it's a must. It's like every— in every entrepreneur, recruiter, everything, every professional needs it. Self-confidence is crucial. You've got to believe in yourself because no one else will believe in you other than what you believe in yourself. You've got to be a goal setter. You've got to have more motivation than any other profession that I've ever seen. It was very interesting, I was having a chat the other day, how many recruiters now are listening— when they were younger, they said, what do you want to be when you're older? I want to be a recruiter. There wasn't many, you know what I mean? But they fell into professionality and they wanted to do it. Optimism. You must be an eternal optimistic person because especially with going to this year, we hear a lot about the recession, different things going on. It's all about what can you make happen, not what, what's bad's going on in the background. It's what you're faced with and you've got to make the best of it. So I just think that's so much resilience, belief. You've got to be here to fight. You've got to have some fight in you. If you get hit, if you get knocked down and stay down, you'll be there forever. But in recruitment, what I've noticed, it's constant And like, as I'm not a recruiter, so I get to look at it from the outside, you get some kicks in the face around there, and it's how you get up from that. I think, you know what someone else said to me recently? Said, uh, a lot of our youngsters aren't really up for it anymore. I disagree, because when you go in recruitment, and I meet so many of them, they're up for it. They're people who are getting knocked down to the floor, getting back up and bouncing back up. Not every one of them, I'm talking about the elite of them, but I've been massively impressed by the standard of people out there. And it's been like, it's been really nice for me, and I enjoy it. I buzz off seeing people, seeing them move on and making it happen. Uh, last one is just the process. Everything's a process. Coming here this morning was a process. Your process was things went against you today, and what did you do? You just go on with it. You kept going. Go back to the process, keep it going, keep to the process. Everything happens. And yeah, I just think Yeah, it's tough being a recruiter, but follow them simple principles and you'll get as far as you can be with it.

Yeah, nice. So I thought, like, let's, uh, let's definitely— I want to really go into, like, principles. And as you saw, you saw a bunch of questions that I think would be really helpful. But why don't we just— to add a bit of color to who you are and how you've arrived here, you used it, you used it a couple of times. You sent it in your voice note this morning, and also when we were on, um, the video call, I think you mentioned it. You sort of said that you You're the classic story of a fatherless father, like, who didn't have a father, basically. So what— why don't we just start there and why that's like an important, yeah, part of the journey, or why— yeah, I don't know, because you've said that a couple of times.

Yeah, I say that because it used to be my chip on my shoulder, you know. I didn't know it was my chip on the shoulder. I mean, you find this a lot. I can instantly, when I work with someone, sit down, I can tell, because I think about my, my children. They've got a great mum and dad who support them 100% of the way. They give them confidence, they give them belief, they follow them. I ring them every day, I send them messages, I'm When you haven't got that, you need to find it from inside. And the thing is, especially with men, what we find we're doing is we're always proving ourselves. Whereas someone from— yeah, it's so— like, there's a certain calmness about someone that's from a nice stable background. But when you haven't had that advantage, it's in you. And until you find out that day what you're— you know, like, I was always proving myself, always having to be the loud one, always having to be like the cocky, self-assured you know, possibly, you know, that fine line between confidence and arrogance. I think I stepped on the wrong line quite a lot of time. I think if anyone knows me, probably thought my past, that's— that was true. And I've learned about that. And the difference really for me is now is when you spot that, like, like I— everyone I work with, especially in that predicament, I feel like I'm their dad. And I try and act like my kids, because how I am with my kids, when I sit in a room with someone, you've got me and I'm going to be that for you. And when they're in that room, I'm, I'm, I'm your biggest advocate and I want the best for you. And I think that, you know, that when people sit down, I give them that. And I always think I've got this thing with my own kids, and I know they'd happily say this, I've always wanted to be what I didn't get, and I always do it all the time, you know. And I have an amazing relationship. And it's like work, you create what you want by what you put in, you know what I mean. I'm here today, I knew what my expectations were because you put them to me by your actions. You didn't tell me what the expectations are. I just knew how you were doing it. I knew when I was coming what I was going to expect, and this is just part of it. It's brilliant. And your podcast's brilliant. You just come across really good. And I just think, you know, like, we're all unique individuals and we just need to find out what that is. And I can definitely think that not having a— not having the perfect family thing makes you be the perfect family thing. And, you know, one of your questions at the end, which I don't have an answer for, funnily enough, You asked about a victim mindset. I've never been a victim of my circumstance, and I think that when people become a victim of the circumstance, it holds them back. And I think that I find it difficult because I've never let that happen, and I could be just like loads of other people, and I could, and I'm not. And I think that one of my things that I give to everyone is not to be that, you know. Don't let, don't let the past hold you back. Just live today.

Yeah, I think Yeah, you can definitely take that for granted, what you're talking about. Like, like you've just said, the way that you described you support your children, and then someone not having that, it's a big difference. And I think when you do have parents, obviously they can piss you off, you can get annoyed at them, these things. You can, you can sort of take that for granted, but I think as you get older and wiser, you recognize sort of how, like you said, foundational that was. And how much of actually a positive impact that had. So why, why don't we just— why don't you just share with us then? Uh, you're a high— you're a performance and mindset coach. What does that mean? Yeah, why don't we just— why don't we—

I always call myself a mindset and performance coach.

A mindset and performance coach. Let's like— let's just— yeah, what does that mean?

So mindset's like, uh, my personal obsession. So, you know, like, you know, if you get into something that's your obsession, it, it becomes a beautiful thing to do, and you're passing on something that's your gift. And your gift isn't something that you were just born with, you weren't. It by in the process and moving forward. Mindset's how you think, how you think about obstacles, how you think about challenges, how you think about your habits, how you think, you know, what's your view on life, what's your perspective. So the way I look at things is always in a way to match what's the best possible outcome from it. So when I'm talking about mindset, I'm talking about it's a daily practice in your life, or from the beginning of the day till the end of the decisions you make during that day and how you push yourself and how you believe in yourself. The thing with mindset as well is it's not always mega intact. You're not always this perfect being that you are, but you recognize when you've dropped it. You know, you— there's a persona, a fixed persona that we've all got, and we're all fighting. And at some point it comes in, I can't do this, I'm not good enough for this. Little things that eat away like a gremlin in your mind. And it's about recognizing that and moving forward and changing it and flipping the thought. So when you talk about performance, I love this, okay? So I sit down with— say I was sitting down with you now. You know exactly what you need to do better. I don't know, you do straight away. And what I've got to do is get in this little bit in here, open the little bit of a chest because you let me in, because you've got to let me in to open it. And when you let me in, you tell me what it is you know you need to do to be better. And it can be absolutely anything. It can be the time of day you get up, It could be if you read, it could be your relationships, it could be your food, could be your diet, uh, could be water, it could be how much you travel, it could be how you travel, it could be how much you sleep, what you do. It's every single tiny little detail that you need to improve to work out that you're better within yourself. Like, I used to be— when I was, when I was younger, I used to get up 5 minutes before I went out. Well, I say 5 minutes. When I was at uni, when I was at uni and I'd had a little kiddie then, so I had a kid early and I was— had to do some building work, they'd be outside and I'd be in bed. And then when I get up, run out and get there, hey, they'd be annoyed. So they're starting off in a day, they're annoyed with me. I would be stressed, but I didn't see stress then, so I created it myself. Now I'm a minimum hour before I even want to leave the place, because I realized for me to be at my best, I need time to think in the morning, to do the process, to get ready. It's actually an hour and a half, if I have to be honest, because I fit in some exercise and whatnot. But it's like small things, and when they tell it, yeah, they know it. And you, all you want to do then is make them actionable responses between now and you come back, that they're going to do certain things to improve it. And the idea is that it makes something become a habit, because when something becomes a habit, you do it naturally, you do it all the time without even thinking about it. And if you can do that, like some, like I've created some amazing habits in the morning that have made my morning start my day, and then I'm in the right frame of mind to keep going. And the amazing thing about me is, and this is the thing I say about mindset, life is ups and downs. So you know, it's not always going to be brilliant, but if you keep your mindset intact when it's down and you act the same and you do the same process, same principles, you might not feel better, but you will action each of that, each of them different things that you do, and you'll get to where you want to be by keeping to the process. So it's a matter of You, yeah, you are what you do, and if you do the right things, you'll perform better. And it's accepting that, you know. Other ones, like people going to bed or going to bed with the phone on, or different things what it is, but I need to find out what it is so I can remove it and they can be better and move forward and perform better.

So like, and then let's just make this a bit practical then. So if I'm a recruiter or recruitment business, what, what does that actually look like? So you sit him down with me, I think you've got like a you've got like a course that you take people through? I don't know, like, what does it actually look like in practice? Are you sitting down and coaching people on a one-on-one basis once a month? Like, what does that actually look like?

So what I'll do is— so I run workshops. So my first workshop they ever do is on mindset, and it is— I don't want to say it, but it's— I think it's phenomenal because it's the ideology of what it is that you set your own limits, no one else. And I use a great example. I love, uh, Nim, who did the 14 Peaks in a really short period of time. His mindset is the most impeccable I've ever seen. And I do a little— I use him a lot because he has no limits, you know. No one can do them 14 peaks in that time. But at the end of his thing, he says one thing that susses him up in one simple statement. He says, giving in, it's not in my blood. And that's a simple mindset thing, because if you don't give in, that's the thing. People give in, you know. If you don't give in and you keep going through a failure or a setback you will always get to where you want to be. You know, this morning you rang me up on Tuesday to ask me to come here, and I knew this was— no offense, Hashim— this is good for me. People get to know what I do, and I know it's going to be great business development. People get to see what I can offer them. I can bring them to a recruitment agency. I didn't think, oh, it doesn't work my timetable. I thought, what can I do to my timetable to get here? Yeah, I said yeah. I said yeah. And I'll always say, yeah, something that moves me forward.

So it's a workshop, and then what we're doing—

so yeah, we do the workshop, and I have a range of different workshops that covers a range of them. One of them's thinking about thinking. So important. So we do the workshops and it gives like a broad idea that I can tell everyone within the, within the team. But then we must sit down on a one-to-one because every single person is different. What—

everything—

every person's got a different life, different way of thinking, different way of acting. So we sit down normally between 20 minutes and half an hour and I have a chat about how is it going, what's going on, what's going well, what's not going well. And the simple question— then we start to go into the box, finding out what is it, you know, you need to do that you need to do better to be a better person or better at what you're doing. And they go on to tell me some things, and from that we decide some actions. So, but in every single session we do, there's some actions that they're going to take for the next 2 weeks when I come back in 2 weeks. So when I come back in 2 weeks, I come back, I sit down, and the first thing I'll say is, we decided these actions, have you done it? And do you know what you'll be amazed by? And this is genuine. Say I have to start with 20 people, I get there first thing, 19 of them are doing them, every one of them, because we don't set unrealistic expectations. That's the other thing to take into huge account. If you like, it's like the January yo-yo diet comes in. I meet him in the gym. I'm always in the gym. I got gym throughout the year. And he comes up and he goes, yeah, all right, mate, I'm going gym 5 times a week, 1,200 calories a day, 3 classes at night, I'm not drinking, I've changed my whole lifestyle. We all know that's not going to work. I'm thinking, I'm going, great, it's great, mate. I'm thinking, I could keep up with that, and I come here all the time and So if you're giving them really this expectation, no one can do it. So you make slight little tweaks, little tweaks. They say 1% a day, every 100 days, it's almost 100% of change. The tiniest of things that they feel they can do. And I know when I meet them again, if they've done them really easy, we set them a bit harder, you know. And every time we set them and they go through them, the idea is to turn whatever we decided into a habit. Because after a bit, once I leave— because I normally come into a business for 3 months and work at changing some habits and then I'll come back later on as a, you know, because what happens is people do all the right things and forget, just get on with it. One of your questions, which I thought was amazing, about why do people, uh, you asked about why do we all read the books and don't follow it through. I think like one of the things that happens, just people forget, you know. Like I've, I've read books when I'm 20, so I've read a book, I forgot about it, and I'll read it again, I think, ah, I forgot about that, I'll give it a go, and I'll use it for a bit and I'll stick with the stuff that's good, but some other book comes, some other, you know, there's so many books, so many ways to go about it, and so many constant changes. Then you've got your own changing environment that happens with you, you know, we're in a changing world.

So how— so you mentioned habits a lot and how important— how long do you— how long— what's the— what's the— what's the days? Because it's, it's definitely— it's mixed in there. It's not, it's not the 21 days or whatever, it's not that.

Well, they say 21 days. I would say 6 weeks. I would say 6 weeks where it comes habitual. We just do it. I've got this funny little— one of my— right, so This is one of my— so I live in the Lake District, I live in Kendal. I literally live opposite Kendal Castle. And one of my habits that even when I've gone through times that struggle, I've always done this. Does it make me feel better? No, but it makes me feel like— like, so every day I take my dog for a walk, I run up the castle. It's 1 minute 40, it's uphill. I, I'm running 100% max. I do it every day. I don't even think of it. So when I'm walking along, I don't think I've got to run up the castle. I naturally do it. Because habitually that's in me. I couldn't imagine not. I do it. It's not easy, it's really hard, but once I've done it, I think first thing in the morning, I've got through that, what's next? You know, I've got into a cold shower now. That's my new thing. That took me quite a bit. Have anyone—

that's grim.

It is grim, but it puts you back in the room. So every time I know I do it, I think, I've done that, what can I do next? Do I do it easy? No chance. I sit there thinking, come on, do it, do it. And I put it on. Oh, And then if my neighbors must think, God, he gets murdered every month, he's got something going on. And you know what, once you do it and it becomes consistent, you keep doing it. And that's what I want people to do, turn it into a habit.

6 weeks. Okay, so let's dive into the things you picked up on then in these conversations, because you, you would have sat down with— one of the great things about industry is, yeah, you get people coming from all different backgrounds, which is really cool, right? So what Why don't I just start then? Like, what are some of the, the typical things, the most common things that you've seen in people, uh, that holds them back when it comes to performance? Just what have you typically uncovered, uh, in people? What have you found a lot of when it comes to, yeah, limiting beliefs, barriers to their performance? Like, what— I don't know, what have you found most common in people that, yeah, aren't able to get to where they really like to when it comes to, yeah, mindset or under that umbrella?

Definitely mindset.

Definitely like, what would it—

negative mindset. Okay, so you imagine like in mindset we talk about, uh, a fixed mindset.

Yeah.

And we talk about an open and growth mindset. And the thing is, we're all built up of them two things. But what I realize is I notice when I'm in the fix, I think, whoa, what am I doing? I need to flip what I've just thought then because it's going against who I really am. Sometimes like everyone thinks, can I do this? I don't know if 'If I'm good enough.' Once I say, 'Can I do this? I don't know if I'm good enough,' that becomes— I action that and I turn that into behaviors. It was just a thought in my head, just a thought. And if I let that thought swim around, the rest of my day lives that I can't do it. Well, what happens if I just change what I thought? Like, so sometimes I sat with people, it's, it's the way they're thinking when things happen. They think— they take— if yesterday was a setback, they bring the setback with them. And when you're in a negative mindset, it's like the law of attraction, like We attract things to us when we're thinking negatively, we're acting negative, our actions are negative, our behaviors are negative. They all like accumulate together and that's what we draw to us. And I constantly see people do it. When I see the top billers, who I can spot straight away because they turn up in that room, they're eager, they want to listen, and they're ready. Where some people just turn up and I think they think it's going to be a little bit of a dig at them because they're going to ask them to change or say they're not good enough and And that's the difference really, that people who want to be top biller, they want to be top biller because they're willing to do anything to be top biller. Whatever change you need to make, they'll make it. Whatever thing they need to learn, they'll learn it. They'll follow it. They'll do that. They'll turn up on time. They'll do the timings. They'll work extra. It's like, it's their actions. Once again, a lot of people talk a good game. I've heard a lot of people talk a good game and I'm like, wow, this guy sounds good. But I'm already knowing it's not what you say, it's your actions. And people just need this action. And I'll come back to again the process. It's sticking to the process. And that, like, if we stick to the process in the good and the bad, we'll always get the outcome that we want. It's about following it through and not letting setbacks or difficulties or mood thing— the other thing as well is mood. Some people don't take ownership of how they feel and like to blame other people or events, or it was that candida, or it's that job, and they don't start looking inside themselves really, like, what did I do wrong? You know, I love it. Like, I work in lots of recruitment and listen to them, so they actually genuinely— they're not going, oh God, we're doing that listening thing again. They're going, no, I want to listen because I want to be better. I want to learn what I could have done. I want to learn your input, how you feel I could change my next phone call, because they're motivated to succeed, and that'll keep happening. And yeah, I just, I just think that certain people I know, and they're not that bothered about being there, and it's not something like a passion, it's just a job, you know. That's the difference, I think, really. Some people turn it into a passion.

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So you said, you said a few things there, it's like the negative mindset. Yeah, like, um, moods controlling them rather than them taking responsibility of their emotions. So I was watching— this is what I wanted to ask you, I think, is one of my questions, right? Is, uh, I was watching, uh, one of your videos on LinkedIn yesterday. I think it was like with Linc Healthcare, I think.

I love it.

Yeah, so I think, yeah, it was a couple of the recruiters, um, just sharing their experience with you. And what, what I picked up on was the things that you were just saying there, which was a lot of these people were saying I was feeling this, or I had this perspective on the situation. I was, I was viewing it from a negative standpoint, but sitting down with Chris, it made me realize, no, that isn't how I view things, and I can view it in a different way, have a different perspective, right? So what I wanted to ask you was, a lot of people, uh, will, uh, view things from a negative standpoint, from a negative perspective. Now, it might be easier for me if I sit down with someone like you to help me get to, to view that at a different viewpoint. But I think some— obviously what I've found in my life and speaking to people, and I'm by no means perfect, is one of the biggest challenges here is not being aware that you're viewing things from a negative mind, from a negative perspective, and a negative viewpoint. So like, for people listening, obviously if they're, if they're listening, then this might give them opportunities to, to learn and realize, oh, actually, am I someone that view things from a negative place, or don't have more— I do have more of a fixed mindset. So what, what's like your advice for people if they're not even aware? Like, what's a good a first step, a good action, if they're not even aware that they're viewing things from a negative perspective that is holding them back? And because I think a lot of people aren't aware that a lot of things that you mentioned there requires some sort of self-awareness.

Yeah, it's interesting that, because you've got the optimist and the pessimist, and they— and many people will tell you, I'm a bit of a— I'm a bit of a half-empty guy. And we are what we say we are. So straight away you're telling me what you're going to be. So everything you said, you've already said that's who you're going to be from now on. You're like, we're all the same, right? All human beings, all born the same, all got the same minds. It's all happening the same. But some of us look— have been more optimistic. Yeah, and it's a habit. It's a thought habit. And it doesn't— you're not always that. And is every one of my thoughts positive and yeah, this is good and it's best for me? No, it didn't. But it is— you just said it— awareness. Being aware of what you say and listening to what you just said. Sometimes I'll say something and I think, that's not me, I don't speak like that. And I think I need to reframe that and change it. So I was— this isn't from me actually, I was actually— I'd never go— I like the Diary of a CEO. Yeah, in fact, I'm obsessed about it.

That's the number one I listen to.

Davina McCall was on it the other day, and you know what, I'd never ever choose to listen to her, and it randomly came on. It was absolutely immense.

Yeah, it was good.

Have you— are you listening?

Yeah, I've listened. I'm like halfway through on that.

Well, I'd never chose it. You know, like sometimes you not choose things, it comes on, you think, this is brilliant. So I listened to it. One of the things she said, it was referring that people who suffer from negativity, because they say it, but after they've said something, it is negative, they must then finish it with something more positive that's going to happen. And if they do that in every single sentence that they do, that'll become a habit. So they've registered, as soon as they said it, they've said something negative is going to happen, but they finish it off with, however, I am looking at making that better. So every down that they say, they make a positive outcome at the end of it, and they do it in every sentence. And that becomes a habit. And it's like, you'll notice me say habits constantly because thought habits, you know, like I gave it to someone else, I got someone else. What, like, so you asked me about what I do with people. I said, I always ask this: are you in a relationship? And they say, yeah. I go, tell me what you are out of 10. And they'll say, what do you mean? I go, what are you, what are you What, you out of 10? And they don't know what to say. They give me a number. The number reflects that we want to get that number. If they go 6, I'm like, I need to get you to an 8, because I know if you have a happy relationship at home, you're going to be happier at work. So one of the things I say is this: when you get home from work, what do you do? Because recruitment's a bit stressful, come on. Yeah, people listen to this, they know that sometimes it's a bit stressful and you've got to, you know, wind down. Well, I get in and sometimes for a bit, I mean, I just leave her and I just go upstairs. Sorry, I'm using a manager's example, and I just go upstairs because I want you to start this habit. I want you to get to the door, walk in every day, and just say, hey, how's it going? How was your day? And I want you to do that every day for 2 weeks. Keep that going every day for 2 weeks. You know, I mean, you're looking at— you know what's going to happen, don't you? Whoever you say that to is going to think, and they're going to say something okay back, because whatever happened in your day, you left it where it was. And you came and you listened to someone else, and that becomes a habit then, you know. And creating little habits like that, it's like you're greeting when you come in the office in the morning. Come in the office in the morning, greet everyone with a smile and start with enthusiasm. You begin in a positive day. Bring a mood that you've just had with someone annoying you at the traffic lights or a road thing, that's the day that's going to impact you that day, you know. So they're all habits, you know, and you can sort of like— it's just like being aware of them. Just like, like awareness is everything. You know, you become awareness and be accountable for what you think and how you act, and you'll notice your responses get better.

But how can we— like, I would— I want to get your take on, like, because you must sit down with people that aren't aware. You can see it in plain sight, but they can't. So for people listening, that, yeah, they may use the language that, you know what, I'm not actually very self-aware, or yeah, I do let the emotions get the better of me, or I do, yeah, get in the frame of mind that's negative and I can't snap out of it. Or they may not have been aware that they have, have that perspective, right? So what, yeah, like what, what sort of good thought habits or experiments can we share that you found help people develop more self-awareness?

It's interesting that, because I think everyone is aware.

Okay.

I think when you sit down with some, they know what they're like, because like what I said before, you, everyone, the person who knows you the best is you. People get on to the fact that they know that what their life's like because of how they think and how they act. They just don't do anything about it. And it's about— that's a fair point, actually.

It's about like registering that, like when you do this, you're creating—

you're creating an emotion, you're setting off on— like, I want people— like, I want people to live the best life. Yeah, and your best life doesn't mean that you're gonna have the— it's not going to be a brilliant life all the time. You're not gonna be happy all the time. Everything's not going to work. But you can have the best life by always acting the same to every single thing that comes. So when something comes and it hits you and you're like— and you're like, you're caught out by a rejection on the phone call, clients let you down at the interview, or, um, clients let you down in an interview, or you've had a deal go down. It's like that now can either take your whole day, move into your week, or you can have a way of resetting right then. For instance, if something happens to me now and it's really annoyed me, I don't want to show my— show my emotion, right? So I have a thing called mind the gap. Victor— Victor Frankl, it came from a concentration camp.

Yeah, man's search for meaning.

Yeah, I love it. You know, I use it a lot because I love The Chimp Paradox. It's the book that I get every single— it's very good, especially men. Especially men. The chimp, like, my chimp has been a big problem in my earlier life, and I've learned to manage him mostly. But he's also my best friend as well because he can get me out of a lot of situations. But I don't let him run my life. And I think, like, once you start— like, The Chimp Paradox, you know, you say a negative thing, that is your chimp. Your chimp responds to negative things and starting to understand why is it you sometimes act like you do, sort of thing. And you're like, why do you respond in the same way? What you find is people respond the same that they always had. Give you another great book.

Wait, Mind the Gap. Just sorry, I interrupted you there. What was you going to say?

Oh, so yeah, Mind the Gap is one of the most useful things in the world. And I'll tell you who did it actually. So I'm working at a place called Insight and, uh, yeah, I know we've had Sean on the podcast. We got Sean. Yeah, so when they're in there, they'll say, oh, I asked Sean, I asked Sean for something and, uh, yeah, he said we're going to see the next day. And I was thinking Sean uses Mind the Gap because when you're a business owner— because I— that's the other thing, I've been a big business owner. So I— when I'm working at a business, I act like I'm them because I know what they want and I know what they can't say, and I can say it more because I have a relationship that's different. And I think that I can't show my— if I show my emotion to what I really think in every decision that comes in, you won't see the real me. You'll see my initial emotion in the moment. My initial moment in the— my emotion is not me. That's me processing what's going on. So I need a bit of a time, and that's what the gap provides us. So if something annoys me, you'd often find that I'd leave where we were. I'd say, can I, can I— I'm just going to go toilet, can I come back in 10 and give it you? Because I don't want you to see my emotion, because I want you to see my practical, the way I actually deal with things. And in the moment, my chimp, which is sometimes a little bit sort of thing, that will slow down what my actual official response is. I need a bit, a bit of time. And I think if you I used to get— I used to get held to my reactions to stimulus, and that doesn't happen in my life anymore because I try— I don't keep my reaction there and then, because often that's not who I really am. If you can give yourself a little bit of time in between that, in between that, you'll find that what you give as your reaction is actually you.

It's a bit of a circuit breaker, sort of. Well, it's like sometimes they say, don't they, like, um, I think we've all been there where we've had something happen and we're writing an email and it's straight after something's happened, it's like, you fucking did it, and it's like, yeah, and then it's like, why don't you just dwell on that? And then the email that you would have written in the emotion would have looked very different to the one that when you gave— you went, even just went to the toilet for 10 minutes or went for a walk, the two emails would have looked very different, right? So yeah, I guess, I guess what you're saying there is again Um, being aware of that and yeah, learning, learning about, uh, learning the fact that yeah, you're like— you just said, I think that's really powerful, that me reacting or my emotions and me showing my actions, that isn't actually the best sort of showcase of who I am. Because if you were to go away, like I just said, then the email is probably a good example, is like that initial email you'd write, but then you go away and come back, that it'd look very different. So it's like, no, you've actually thought about it, you've you try to maybe understand what's happened, the other person's perspective, these things, and you've arrived at a place going, okay, right, I'm not as— yeah, emotional here, and this is how I'm feeling. And like, so that, that's super helpful then for people to think about having some sort of circuit breaker, or— yeah, should I just say this?

It's interesting, like, it's text messages, isn't it? It's like if you respond straight away to a text message, it's often not what you really think, and I don't want to say who this is, but someone very big in my life, massive, who I love massively. They won't be listening to this anyway, but I'm not going to say who it is. I love them. They've moved. You know when you say, how do people change? They used to have a massively negative, uh, existence in the way they thought. And it's funny now because this is someone who's very— his family, they, they used to send me texts. I'd send a text and they'd send an— or like, they'd send a chimp text, raging, right? And what I'd do is I'd never reply to them, and they'd always go—

they'd go—

no, they'd go— they knew my no reply was saying that wasn't— that wasn't on what you just said. Because my no reply is— I'm stuck at first what reply I don't, but I've observed them as they've become better at being less negative. How I know it is, so last week they sent me a text, one of them. It was deleted in 3 minutes. I actually saw it though. So if I would have been an hour late, I'd have just seen a deleted message. I saw them delete it because they recognized that wasn't who they are now and they were being their old behavior. And there's a book, if I recommend a book, um, I always get— it's called, uh, Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself. I say his name wrong every time. Joe Dispenza.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. He's got loads of podcasts as well.

So that's what that's about, that just because you've always done a certain pattern of behavior before doesn't mean you can't change it. And you know, people get addicted to old ways of being and add it to the— to now. I've got this beauty that I have, right? I love this, is a great example. So sometimes when I'm meeting with people, I say— I ask them a question and they'll go— and this is, this is a limiting belief— they'll go, in my head, and they'll give this response. And I'll go, oh, interesting. But when did you start establishing— so I'm going to give you some— he's 53, this person I'm thinking of. When did you start, in my head, with that response, you've got to that? You go, well, I started thinking like that when I was 20.

Wait, wait, say that again. Sorry, in my head, what do you mean?

So in my head's an expression that they use for the— it's like a controlled behavior that they're going to tell you that they've always done. They're not responding in the moment. They're going to get— I've always been like this, right? You know when someone says, I've always been like this?

Yeah.

And then I'll say, when did you start being like that? And they'll say, when I was 20. That's really interesting, that, because you're telling me you were the smartest you've ever been 30 years ago and you've lived your whole life because that guy knew exactly what everything was going forward. And they'll go, no, 'And I'll go, it sounds a bit like it.' But until they've registered, and then next time it comes up, they'll think, 'Am I, am I answering this like I was, or who I am?' And that's the difference.

That's powerful. So I guess we're talking a bit about it here, but one of the questions that I had for you, as you described, uh, recruitment being, uh, yeah, definitely consists of, uh, can consist of a lot of highs and lows for people. So what, what other sort of practical frameworks then can you share that you have found, yeah, help the people that you've worked with, or sort of common frameworks or habits that people have implemented that you've worked with that have helped them deal with the highs and lows? Is there anything else? So we've spoken about mind the gap. Is there anything else?

I found that, you know, I found interest with that question. It's amazing, no one ever really asks about what to do in the highs. We always speak about what to do in the lows.

Good point.

It was an excellent question because it made me think that Because, because when I meet people who have the highs, the creative, because the top billers, they've got a real resilience about themselves and they've got all the attributes I said before. So they manage that just as well. It's mainly when you think of the lows, you think about people struggling. It's kind of— that's a lot of what I do. When you said that, identify with— I read those who are winning always win, you know, and they keep winning because it's an action and it's a habit, you know, and they're resilient. They get back up, they keep doing it. They see a set, but they don't see— they see failure as feedback. So it's interesting, when I'm with them, all they're looking at is how can I be better, how can I be better, I can be better, because they're already on a high. They're just wanting to know what little things can I do to be even better. So it's more when you put that question, I was looking at how do people face the loss. Yeah, how do people face it?

Yeah, that's a good point actually. That's where you sort of— where you're— where you gravitate towards.

I think that's everyone. It was like really interesting, it made me really think on the train actually. So definitely the lows. I think calm, it's, you know, stress is, you know, stress. Let's say, let's, let's— all right, first difference between winning and losing is in your head. That's what it is, because winners and losers just make decisions that are based in their head, and it's a way of thinking. So we're back to mindset again. So that's a, um, that's a big difference. And, um, I've lost my train of thought then. Just give me that.

What, how, like, practical frameworks for dealing with the lows? Oh yeah, is there anything else that you find yourself—

or even exercises? You know, like I sit down, I just say, like, if everyone— like yesterday I did it. I was at somebody, go, yeah, I don't know what to do when I'm out there, I get a bit stressed. And I find that— and I said, I said, just now, just do me now, just go.

It feels completely different.

Just off 2, you completely change your physiology. Completely changes it. That's 3. And I always just do 3 So if you're in a real bad way, you do 10, you complete— even off 3, you completely find yourself rebalancing, just like, and you're like, I'm all right. You're almost like reconnecting with yourself, you know, like breathing and breathing exercises bring you back down. Because when you get a bit stressed, your heart rate's going, thinking you're all frantic, you're tight, you're tense. As soon as you concentrate on something else, you know, mindfulness, getting away again— I always suggest get out of the office a minute, just stand outside and just observe. Because as soon as you take your mind off things— because when you're in the present moment, everything's all right. The problem's been when you look in the future, in the past. And sometimes we're all guilty of that. And when you go and get like— go outside, do the breathing exercise. A lot of them will go outside for a smoke. I don't like— I'm not a smoker, but I think they're going outside and they're dealing with that moment. I don't think that's the right way. Go outside and just observe things and start taking your mind off what it was. Because as soon as you come back into the moment, you'll realize actually, all right, what this little thing is, is not that big. And all you need to do now is do some actions and go forward and get back to the process. And I think that people forget that the simple ways to reset and, you know, bring themselves back into the room, you know, because people are chaotic. Once you get things going wrong, it's that negative mindset, it starts. So we need to reboot the system. And I always find the breathing exercises are immense, you know, like, but you forget because it's so obvious. It's like You know, like the thing is, like, it's like, it's like inventions. You look, yeah, it's too obvious that— no, the obvious is what people forget. Simple little thing. Lunchtime, go for a walk. You're having a crap day, go for a walk. It wins. Not sometimes, every time. You might be 100, you'll never lose it completely, but you come back in the room and you get more logical. You're coming back to you, getting rid of the emotion, getting rid of all the anguish that's come with whatever that subject is. You need to remove yourself from it. And just have a little bit of a time to rebalance, bring yourself back to normal. And it's simple, but it sounds it—

no, no, yeah, no, it is very powerful. I guess what, what I want to ask you then, speaking about some of the things there— breathing, going outside, um— do you think you can build resilience, or are you born with it?

100% think you can build it. I think that some, like You know, I look at my life, I've had some tough challenges, yeah, but they've never— I— when I look— and this is a— this is another thing that I really love. All my tough challenges, and some of them are pretty crazy, I'm not here to talk about them, but I'd never change them.

Yeah, you hear that a lot.

Yeah, I'd never change. And so when you're having a tough challenge, yeah, it's difficult to see going through it, but just remember, if you never change the other ones, this is building you. Whatever's happening now is building you. So I believe that resilience is, is a thought in your mind about how you go about it. It's a thought about not giving in. It's not about moving forward. It's a thought about even when things are against you, you still show up, you still get on with it. And once you start doing it, it becomes a habit. Showing up's a habit, do you know what I mean? I love this stat. I got it off the Diary of a CEO. 90% of everything we do is showing up. I'm worried about— I actually didn't worry about this. I couldn't wait to come. Genuine, love it. I love this stuff. It was like but someone else might be worrying. Just show up. Once you're here, it'll do it, it'll start, it'll happen. On that phone call, just pick it up. Once you've got it in your hand, it'll keep going, it'll happen. And that's resilience. And in recruitment, you know, like, uh, there's a, uh, at Stride, there's a guy called Harrison who I absolutely love. And I saw him, he picked you— like, he picked— he is resilient. He picks up the phone and he gets told to fuck off. Yeah, what does he do? He instantly picks the phone but dials him back. He went Sorry about that, I think we got cut off. You know, it's stuff like that, that is resilience. And I think it's a process and you can build it up, yeah. Or you can think, no, I'm not resilient. As soon as I say I'm not, I become what I say I am. Well, why am I saying I am? I'm growing more resilient every day. You— I mean, recruitment will make you resilient if you're in it a long time, without a doubt, or you're out of it.

So do you think you can only build resilience then by going through things? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But what is life? Yeah, you know, like, all of life is going through something. Even those you think of having an amazing life, they haven't— they're going through somewhere, a personal battle, um, a relationship battle, a battle with it internally, a battle in their environment, whatever it is. No one's got that amazing— you know, some of us have got better lives than others, but we're all facing some kind of struggle.

Uh, and then the other thing I wanted to ask you, this is something, a big belief that I have, but I wanted to ask your thoughts on it with what you do and the journey that you're on, is how important is personal responsibility within this conversation? Because I think you mentioned it earlier, I think, um, in the world that we live in today, I feel like it can be, it can be very— we can always find someone to point the finger at. And sometimes rightly so, sometimes I think it's a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card. So how— with the things that we're talking about, changing, yeah, our perspective for the better, being more positive, building more resilience— how important is personal responsibility as part of that?

Absolutely everything. I didn't— you know, like, that was one of the questions I didn't even write anything down because I think accountability, personal responsibility is everything. Like, you, you, you— it's you that does everything. No, you know, like some people that might have some lucky breaks and whatnot, they might have— it might be a family business and they're going to do it and it's up to them. But the rest of us, the majority of that is like today, your personal responsibility. You got let down today, what do you do? Just got on, you came on, you made the best of what you've got, you got it going, you were responsible for what went on. I think that I'm responsible for getting up this morning, I'm responsible for going to bed earlier last night, I'm responsible for making sure last night I got all my stuff ready so I wasn't stressed this morning, because I come in here stressed. It's not the thing to do, you know. I'm responsible for everything. I'm responsible for how I feel. I'm responsible for how I think. I'm responsible for my actions. If something happens to me, I take responsibility, even if you did it to me, because it's like, how did I respond to that? How did you— how did I let someone else get in my life to do it? Because every part of it, when I look back, is a point that I could change. And it's like you asked about top billers and those at the top and those are highs. They do, they are accountable unbelievably. When I was coming here this morning, I buzzed off this. I always say that actions and words are different. Looked on my Instagram story from 3 of the guys at Strive, all 6 AM boot class this morning. Winners, actions of winners, being accountable. They know that in recruitment I meet them all, they exercise for me Exercise is everything for me because it's, it's discipline, and discipline is everything in life. It's personal responsibility, is discipline. And I looked at that and I buzzed off it because they know that end of the day you're knackered. I mean, if someone— people do go end of the day, but majority, you go at 6 AM, you've done it then, and you can crack on with your work. You've achieved something, you've passed the first thing, your discipline's shown, you already believe in yourself, you get that belief. You take it with you and it is accountable. And that's, I think, where I— where it goes wrong when I'm meeting people. They're not accountable for their own actions.

Let's talk about that, because like, that's— yeah, I'm, I'm a big believer in that, but I didn't always think like that, and I didn't always immediately think, what could I have done better? I definitely didn't always have that mindset. I'm not quite sure exactly what the first step was or the journey to getting more towards the way that you're talking about things, but I— that, that, that's how I approach things. So for people listening that aren't quite there yet, and like you just said, that sometimes can prevent people from, uh, fulfilling their potential, getting to where they want to— how can we get closer to that? Like, what do we need to start doing to get closer to more being more personally accountable?

Why did you change?

Yes, good question. Why did I change and when?

So when was it and why?

So the, the story for me was really quickly, early 20s, 30 in March, early 20s, talking like, yeah, 22, somewhere around there, uh, where it all, all changed for me. There was definitely a moment and it all catalyzed from there. So, uh, I was a part of a friendship group And at that point, all I cared about was going out, pulling girls. That's, that's all it was. That's, that, that was the, the main thing. Um, and then two of my friends in that friendship group that I was close with— but you know, you're closer with some people than you are others— but I started to notice that they weren't coming around to smoke weed and watch Geordie Shore. They weren't coming around for the pre-drinks and going out. And I was really— I, I've always been a quite curious person. My mates like to call me a journo because I like to ask a lot of questions. But yeah, I'll take my nickname question. Is it? Yeah. So, um, so I was curious as to like why they were sort of branching off from the group. And anyway, long story short is what I realized when I became curious about that was they made the decision, and that decision was that they felt their time was better spent focusing on themselves. So the epiphany that sort of I had through that was the best investment you can make is in yourself. Sounds really simple and straightforward, but yeah, I like that. That's sort of how I arrived at that. So then ever since then, that's when I've been interested in personal development, curious about being the best version of myself and how do you do that. So it all started from there, I'd say. And then It's just like, for me, what's really freeing about the personal responsibility and accountability, which is why I think it's really important, particularly with, uh, the world today and the landscape, uh, today. Like, if you woke up every day and decided to read, watch everything externally, and you— and that dictated how you felt about the world and your perspective in these things like, what chance have you got to think that we've got a group? Yeah, like, I'm happy and these things. There's so many— every single day there's reasons why I shouldn't be happy, or reasons why the world's fucked, and these types of things. So like, for me, I think one of the most freeing things you can do is taking responsibility and feeling like you're actually in control. Because yeah, like, when you don't feel like you have control, that isn't a nice feeling. But there's a lot you can control. So I'd rather— I think it's a lot more Yeah, it helps me, and it's a lot more powerful to be like, no, I'm— what could I have done better? Or I could have done this. It's just way more freeing. It's— I feel lighter for it.

So the main thing is, I use this one a lot: control the controllables. What's the one controllable you can control all the time?

How I react.

Yeah, yeah, you, your actions, what you do, how you think. And when you said before, how does a person who's negative you can control it because you're the one who had the thought. So if you have a thought and you know it's not going to work you out, you can flip it. And you just have to become aware, you know, like your true sense is not to, not to have doubt. But doubt is sometimes in us, but doubt stops us from performing. So what doubt will do is, is let us down. We need to get rid of doubt, and doubt gets rid of by believing in yourself, making changes. That's what you basically said to me, you made changes. I, uh, I— there's nothing better than I see, than I sit down with someone and we talk about changes, and then I start watching them make it, and it's like, it's quite emotional. I think of one, there's a guy called Dan Gorad, so he reminds me of me. He's a lot younger, he's half my age.

He, uh, is it Strive, right?

Yeah, he works with my son. And, um, what I love about it, and I mean I love this guy, obviously, because people, my son, you know, I, yeah, I work with them, you get very intimate in work, you know. I, I I have a passion for everyone I work with. Some people, I just— we, we just hit it off. And I— we discussed a lot of things that had helped him out, and he was doing already— he was already doing really good. And then he started to do everything that we discussed. And it's once again— so I'm on his Insta just watching her perform, a perform at the weekend, 6 in the morning, up a hike, doing something else. He's not— he stopped not going out on the drink all the time anymore, not getting in that behavior, starting to do things that and make him perform, and he's happier than he's ever been. And you look at him and you think, this guy is doing everything in order to be better, but then he does some more. And it's people like that, I just think— I don't know, it makes me very emotional because I just think I see me in him, you know. Not everyone's like me, you know. Not, not everyone I meet is like me. And when I meet somebody similar to me, I know, I know we can work together. And I watch him and I think, I've got a lot to learn from them. That's the other thing I want you to know, that I learn a lot from these people that I meet because I'm not a finished project, you know. I'm, I'm ever— I'm into change every day. I want to be better than what I was yesterday because today is a new opportunity to begin. So I love that, you know. It's a beautiful thing to be able to do what I do, you know. I kind of— I get paid for doing something I love. But I'll tell you one thing about it, if I do a full day, I leave them— I lose my soul because I give everyone— sometimes I leave and I need to be in check because I'm dead. I walk from that to that train station and I slowly— my end— because I've got to give 20 people the same energy, and I do.

That's a lot.

It's a lot. But I realize, so now I have to go, I've got to manage myself. What do I do now? I've got to go into like fight back. I know what's going to happen, I'm prepared for it, and I need to go like self-preservation, go with the flow, because I know that the next day it's a new day and I'll be absolutely bouncing again. I just need to take and that's the thing that people realize when they leave work. If work's been big, you need to work on you to calm yourself down.

So as we come to the end here then, just, just curious to get your thoughts on this. You're, you're a father. Yeah, clearly really passionate about being the best dad you can be. Uh, how like— yeah, you, you raising a family, um, in today's world, mental health, what— how do you feel about that? Because clearly Yeah, like that. Yeah, that whole time would have been completely different when you were growing up.

I didn't even know what it was.

That's what I mean. So like, how— I don't know, how do you feel as a father? And yeah, mental health and suicide being the biggest killer of young men these days.

Oh yeah, that's been an impact in my life in other areas. But, um, I see that mindset and well-being is one of them things. If you keep your mindset intact and keep working on it, mental health will be further away from you. Because you're always working on being in a certain place. I— you're on about my kids. I've got this amazing thing happening right now. My middle son, who's going to be a top 11, top, top elite performer, is currently at Strive doing work experience for 2 days with his big brother, watching his brother on the phone being unbelievable. It's like, that's the kind of thing that I can give my kids. Like, you know, you don't do work experience in school anymore. They don't do it, really. That's crazy. So we took it on us. Not with— funny, Dylan sorted it. And I saw— I looked at Luke today, he's doing a pitch in front of everyone about what he's learned about Strive, around the kind of people I want him to become, the environment I want him to be in. And he's like, I got to see my son perform on a phone and sell the dream and watch him. And no one gets to do that. If I'd have thought when I was a kid I was going to be— when I was younger that I was going to watch my son do that. One of my proudest moments. And the fact my other son is watching my older son perform is just like, it's special, real special. And I just know that it's the beginning of him being an unbelievable performer because he's going to watch them people and he's going to want to be one of them and he's going to act like one of them. And I think that I've placed him around that. And I constantly, my kids talk about— I don't talk about mental health, I talk about— I go, this is me, this is no word of a lie. And I mean, I do this like You know, like, I, I've had tough times in my life recently. I became single, uh, beginning of last year. I didn't want to do that. I had to go motivate everyone when I wasn't feeling the best motivated. But mindset is always the thing that gets you through it. And when then I was struggling about— I walk in the morning, I go, right, come on, wait, more Lucas, because he's older, so you know what it's like getting him out of bed. It's dragging him out. Right, Lucas, up we go. Come on, today is going to be a powerful day for you. You're going to make some good relationships, and from the off, you're going to start achieving things from the morning. You can have the best day. I want you to go out and make other people feel good and show everyone who you are.

That's how you start the day.

And he'll be like, he'll go— this is also, he said this to me before, he's good. Dad, does everything have to be a lesson? I'll go, I'm glad you said that, because yes, it does. Oh, I love that.

That's awesome. So look, parting advice, what do we want to leave with people if they're still with us, they're listening, they want change? What's the parting advice, uh, for people who want to fulfill their potential when it comes to, to mindset? What, what you're going to leave them with?

Okay, so first one I'll leave with founders and MDs. You want to get me into your business, business quite quick. That's the first one. Absolutely. Just that if you did like— so change can happen anytime. You're not a victim of the past. And everything— if you think yourself, today's a day, it— today's— every day is an independent day, and it's up to you what you do, where you go from it. And you know, if you failed in the past and you've not been able to do it, okay, that's fine. But as long as you keep trying, when you keep trying, eventually you'll get to your goals. That's what I wrote on my Insta today, that if you keep trying, eventually successes come. And you know what, coming on the podcast with you is a sign of success of what I've been doing, and that made me feel really good. And I appreciate that, like, from the bottom of my soul, that I know this is the platform to get to speak to other recruiters, because I love the recruitment, because they need mindset. I'm telling you, because it's the biggest test. And I think you can do it. Read, get into it, get a mentor, get around the right people. You said it before, you said it when I asked you what changed you. It's who you knock around with. Who you knock around, you become. So like, I notice in recruitment, I see it all the time, I see it like they're stopping knocking around with people they knocked around with at school because they're trying to match who they are now. And there's nothing up with that. I still love my mates from school, and I've met one for the last two Mondays and he's messing up, and I've got a responsibility to him. Because I said to him, yeah, because if I, if I'm at your funeral, I'll be sad that I'm not doing out. But I don't do it all the time because I need to be around the kind of people who make me feel alive and make me want— I look at them and think, I want to be them. Place yourself around them and you'll become them.

I like that. Change can happen at any time.

Anytime. Honestly, anytime.

Chris, been an absolute pleasure.

I've loved it, mate. I've genuinely— thanks so much. I've, I wrote all them notes, your questions so good, and when you said don't look at your notes, I thought, Oh my God, what am I going to say?

There we go. Chris, thank you.

Cheers, buddy.

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.