Connor Hey - From being a trainee priest to working in recruitment - the power of a positive mindset

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm joined by Connor Hay, who is the team lead, or a team lead, at Org3D, who are a specialist recruitment agency that operate in data and analytics. Connor currently manages a small team of 3, including himself, and has been in recruitment for just over 18 months. So, Connor, excited to talk and uncover your story so far. I think I must just say that, obviously, how we got to this point— Connor sort of proactively reached out, said, look, been listening to the podcast and would love to just talk a bit about some of the things that I've done, learned, etc., over the last year and a half. And look, I think it's so important to not— for me, there's no benchmark to get involved in this podcast, right? So like, for me, it's just so important to give, um, people like you where you're on your career to sort of say how it's going, what you've learned, blah blah blah, because there'll be a lot of people that listen to this that, um, are where you are or even before, right? Um, and definitely if you're someone that has the right mindset, you should have the mindset that you can learn from anyone.

Absolutely.

Do you know what I mean? I think it's so important. So I'm super excited to sort of unpack the last 18 months. Obviously, I know that when we initially spoke, you was on furlough and you've been back for a couple of weeks. So it'd be good to— we'll definitely cover sort of that experience, because I think a lot of people can relate to that. But where I always like to start on this podcast, Connor, is how did Connor Hay enter the world of recruitment? Let's start there.

Yeah, good starting place. And thanks for having me on, Hishem. It's really good to— to be a part of this. This podcast has helped me in many ways during my 18 months, so I'm sure we can come on to that as well. But yeah, in terms of my journey into recruitment, I probably rather uniquely— I don't know if you've ever had anyone on your podcast who used to be or trained to be a Catholic priest before. No, definitely not. I suspected that might be the answer. But yeah, that was my former path post-university. I was trained to be a Catholic priest in Rome. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was great in many ways, you know, the pizza, the wine, made some good friends. But yeah, I've been trying to shake off the weight, like, for the— still trying to do it now. Rome is like, if you don't have much restraint on food and drink, it's not the place to live. But it was super fun while it lasted. And yeah, just like decided that wasn't the right thing for me. And I think really, actually, what helped me make my choice was when I went to see the rector. I was going to say if anyone knows who the rector is, but rector is a word you don't get— doesn't get thrown around much, right? So just to kind of clue you in on that, the rector is kind of like the headmaster of like the priest training college, so to speak. I don't think he'd thank me for giving him that summary, but that's like effectively what you're doing. So there for discipline. Anyway, I went to see him, said, look, you know, I want to leave. And he said to me, it's only right when you're making a big choice in life to seek the wisdom of a lot of people. And he mainly said that because we were supposed to be going on this retreat next week and he wanted me to stay and to see if I was going to decide to stay in Rome. So I thought that that was good advice, actually, and I took that into my job hunt. So I know that loads of people fall into recruitment but that wasn't me really. I think I took some time to consider like, A, what am I going to be happy doing, and B, like, what matches up with my skill set. I thought I took that advice from the rector of like, speak to loads of different people, get a feel of jobs. Yeah, it's the most natural thing for me to have done would have been to teach. It's a bit of a joke that like most people who drop out the priesthood, they go into teaching, because most of the time in seminary it's not spent like, you know, learning to do funerals or baptisms, it's spent studying really. So teaching was the most natural path. But I think that was a good lesson in itself, actually, not just to follow, like, what's expected. I think that was a good thing for me to take some time and to work stuff out. So yeah, I spoke to, like, loads of different people, got a feel of jobs. Recruitment popped up because one of my friends did it for, like, a year. He did fall into it just for some money. I said, fair enough, you know, that is one-up shop. But yeah, he gave me a bit of a picture, so I added that to kind of my catalog of jobs, right? Just thought I'd really explore everything, really. Yeah, I think why I landed on recruitment to actually pursue it was really looking at, yeah, what skill set do I have and what will I enjoy. So skill set-wise, I guess it was really the ability to kind of communicate with other people, to understand people's problems and situations. Like, a lot of training we got in Rome was like understanding people's positions and trying to provide a solution as well, in many ways. Obviously in a very different way, but it was still like the same kind of skills, so that appealed to me. And I also just liked the idea that recruitment was like meritocratic, it was competitive. I've always been quite competitive, played a lot of sport, used to be an Irish dancer as well, played a lot of cricket. So yeah, I've done some odd things in my life, but yeah, I used to do Irish dance for quite a while. So all that stuff appealed to me, and then yeah, went through a great rec-to-rec, and she got me 3 interviews at recruitment companies, and that was really like when I started to discover what it was like, I guess, really about, to be honest, in those interviews and those interview processes. So Yeah, I had those 3 interviews and they all progressed at a kind of similar speed. And yeah, I landed on Org3D and I'm really glad I did, to be fair.

Nice. Okay. Interesting story. Thank you for sharing. Definitely unique.

Yeah.

No, but, but I love that. I think, I think you're completely right. I think what I love that you said about that is basically empathy, right? Being empathetic, being able to understand people's different situations, listen. So I totally understand why that's a skill set that you probably had to grow and become better with if you were training to be a priest, because I'm pretty sure you've got to be a good listener. And yeah, you've got to help people sort of see where they can solve their problems or whatever, right? So I really like that. That's cool. So, okay then. So very quickly, what— so Org3D, what— so I guess, just out of interest, why did you— what sort of drew you to them, would you say, out of the other two businesses? And what sort of helped you make that decision?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think there were a couple of things. I think firstly, like, it was quite nice actually, just in general, that I was going through those processes at the same time. So I was kind of getting to a similar stage where I could assess them kind of on, like, and even Kiel, I guess. So Aug3D, as you mentioned, we do a lot in data analytics. We also have a team who does cybersecurity as well, but like, yeah, fast growth technology really. There was another company who did something similar, and then the third company did like, they were more established and they did a lot in the insurance sector. But I think for Aug3D, for me, there was a couple of like key things. A big one for me was the size of the company. It would put some people off. There were only, I think, 5 people. I was the 6th, the first external hire for them. A lot of them came from a previous recruitment company. They'd all worked together, but I quite liked that. Like, for me, like, the startup feel and being able to be a part of something and to grow something, of course, it's always like riskier for sure, but I think that really appealed to me. A second thing that like stood out was the training. Like, my bosses were huge on like the training I was going to get. Also because it was so small, I could like really tap into their knowledge and I knew that was going to be key because I was so conscious that like I knew absolutely nothing about recruitment. Yeah, I didn't know anything, I had no experience. So I was so conscious of like, yeah, the potential for me to be really bad at it and I really wanted to be able to have people I could learn from.

Learn from, yeah.

Yeah, and not only just like my directors actually, like because we were so small then, our investor He's been a great mentor to me. I managed to get quite a lot of time with him, and he successfully grew a recruitment company, and he invests in recruitment businesses now, and he stayed a good mentor for me. But had I not joined them at that time, it would have been more difficult to establish that relationship. So I think those were two key things. One final thing to quickly mention, I think, is the vision. I think that's super important. Like, I really bought into the vision of the directors. They articulated it so passionately. It was something I bought into, and I think that was key for me. Like, if I was going to give it my all, because let's face it, recruitment's not easy. It kind of, you know, there's a lot of down days as well as the up days. And I think, yeah, you really need something that you believe in to drive you in those times. So I think the vision that we had at AUK3D, the growth plans, which are still standing and still going and have gone well, you know, so far, pre kind of lockdown and things. But yeah, that kind of really helped me as well, buying into what they believed in and the agenda that they had.

Yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so how were your first couple of months in recruitment?

First couple of months were actually like performance-wise like not great, I'm not gonna lie.

How long did it take you to make your first placement?

It was so, it was 4 months in. Really? Yeah, no, in fact, sorry, no, I was supposed to have something going to April and I was in Morocco on holiday, I think, yeah, and she pulled out. So actually my first placement went into May. Yeah, I was, I mean, of course it was the right thing for her, right? So it was cool, but yeah.

So 5 months?

Yeah, 5 months of like, my interviews were good, my CV sends, like we were, you know, lots of stuff happening. But in short, I had 11 final interviews go down. In 4 months, 11 finals or offers that didn't work out. So I'm kind of like quite glad I had that introduction, to be honest. It like really taught me a lot in terms of mental resilience and mindset. And also I think it turned out, that first year turned out to be a bit of a metaphor for recruitment because I had 11 finals go down, no placements, and then in May I billed £55.5K.

Cheers!

Straight out the gate! So I mean, yeah, that was like, you know, that outweighed big time all that you know, struggle we've gone through. And then, yeah, the rest of the year went like really, really well and better than I could have ever imagined. So yeah, the first few months were like really, really tricky, like just because of lack of results and the mental challenge that brings, especially when you're starting something new and you just want to impress big time and you just feel like you're not bringing anything to the table.

Let's just talk about that because I think that's relatable to someone that's more years down the line and they have a bit of a tough spell, which happens. Like, how did you get through those months? Like, it's the mental part, right? It is. It's you doubting yourself, like, fuck, I'm like, should I even be in this job? Um, is this ever gonna change? You have the self-doubt that ends up sort of coming through in your phone calls. You're not as confident. So like, how did you— what was the things that really helped you get through that tough patch?

Yeah, no, I think, I think you've hit something there. Yeah, you know, whether you're new or whether you're seasoned, you know, you're always going to have those, those difficult patches. I think you're right, the self-doubt creeps in big time. So for me, it was, it was a few things really. I think to summarize, one of them was, was really doing a lot of work on my mindset actually. I think like, just like you work out your body, like working out your mind and your mindset is something that's really important. And that's actually helped me It continues to help me a lot now. So I took advice from a lot of people in terms of reading books to read, things that helped me, all that kind of stuff.

What books were the impact?

Yeah, there's been some really good ones over the last 18 months. I think during that time, the first book I read actually was quite probably a stark introduction to reading. It was the 10X Rule by Grant Cardone. Oh, wow.

Nice.

And given like I'd never read a Yeah, it's pretty intense, that book. It's a pretty big shift from the Bible. So I was hit like a storm, like, oh my goodness, you know, what's going on here?

Well, had you only ever read the Bible before that?

Yeah, that was it. No, no, no, no, not at all. But I certainly hadn't read like any like self-development. Yeah, any self-development books outside of like a religious book.

Okay, so 10x Grant Cardone. Yeah, start with a bang. Did that help you? Was there any other books that really helped?

10x helps. There was a book called The Power of Now as well, which I know you like. My boss helped me and introduced me to that. And yeah, because I think that was a big thing for me. You touched on the self-doubt before. For me, it wasn't as much like self-doubt. That was there, but a big factor for me, and I think hits a lot of people really hard, I see it a lot, and I think it's people who have high standards. They're usually people who achieve well, but they're also people, or can be people, who are very hard on themselves. I was so hard on myself in my first year, like really hard on myself. I remember my investor, when we were chatting and he sat down to me and he was like, look, he's like, you have to snap out of this or you're never going to enjoy it. He's like, if you, you know, I'd achieve more than I thought I could, yet all I was focusing on was like the one big placement that dropped out. So when you start focusing on the negatives, that was like a real big thing to overcome as well because yeah, in recruitment they're always going to be there, and if you choose to focus your time and attention on them, you're going to be screwed mentally. So yeah, The Power of Now was actually a really, really good book. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. That helped me, that helped me a lot with mindset as well.

And then, so then, anything else that you did or continue to do now that sort of has become sort of non-negotiable for you? Maybe habits or sort of your own personal rituals that have just sort of helped you mentally with the sort of pitfalls, the ups and downs?

Yeah, so I think, I mean, my habits have changed. They've changed a lot for the better over the last 18 months. I'm actually currently doing the Miracle Morning, you know, if you come across that. So yeah, myself and my boss are doing a 30-day challenge, so I'm actually taking a lot out of that. So that's kind of my new routine. But I think in general, just like over the last 18 months, things that are non-negotiable that have helped. Certainly the reading, so I read every day. I mean, I had quite an academic background before, so I quite like reading and learning. Seeking feedback as well, that's like a habit that I really, really try to look at, particularly my first year, but even now it's like you can always be learning so much off other people, and I think that comes from like— it feels ironic sometimes to say, oh, I'm a humble person, because by nature it seems a bit weird, but what I mean by that is I recognize that there's no way I can do this by by myself. Like, I recognise the need for help. So that's a big thing for me. But yeah, in terms of habits, always feed my mind with positivity in the morning. That's key. My mornings have become super key. Always feed my mind with positivity. Exercise as well. So when gyms are open, I'm usually in the gym in the morning. At the moment, I'm getting lots of walking done, but that just gives me like clarity of mind and kind of just gives me time to really have some time for myself as well before the day kicks in. And then finally, probably just getting my diary in order. Like, in the morning, that's become like sacrosanct now. In the morning, it's like, yeah, because otherwise you can be like, I'll do it after the meeting, I'll do it after— then the call comes in, and before you know it, it's like midday and you've got no direction. Yeah, positivity, exercise, and getting like a good structure then for the rest of the day are like— they've been pretty present.

Love that. So, um, last thing that then on the— and then we'll talk about sort of the shift and what went on after those 5 months. But sort of looking back, knowing what you know now, what would you say to Connor before you entered those 5 months, you think? What would you say?

Good question. I mean, I think in one way I wouldn't change anything that happened. Yeah, I learned so much from the mistakes. Like, I learned a lot more from the mistakes I did from the wins. But I think if I was to give myself some advice that would have made me significantly better, I think it would have been— first, as I just touched on, would be go easier on yourself, because I think mentally I was draining myself like every day, like fretting about, you know, nothing happening or nothing positive or nothing I perceived as positive happening, because I was so focused on the short term and the results. And that's a big thing for me now, is I always look at the big picture in the long term, and I know things will work themselves out if you trust in a repeatable process that you know works. Things will work out in the long run. And that's what happened over the course of the year. But in those 5 months, I was mentally draining myself. So yeah, that's another thing I'd say, trust in, trust in the process. Don't panic and go off course because when I was new especially, it was like, oh, it's either me or the process. And, you know, sometimes you start doing your own thing and trying to make other stuff happen. And I think it's just like back to basics and go that, particularly like when you're kind of early on. And I think third and finally, something I'd say to myself is I'm still working on this now. Again, I've got a good book on this actually, but it's like learning to be uncomfortable. I think that was the big thing, like trying to just be confident and know that growth comes from being uncomfortable. I think that's the key thing because that holds you back from so much that can make you so successful and to help you achieve your goals. So yeah, those are the 3.

Amazing. So just, just for context, 5 months. So what, your 6th— oh, your 5th month was May where you obviously billed over 50K. So you're— is this perm? Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. So then just for context, and then we'll talk a bit and we'll uncover sort of the first year, what changed, etc. But like, what did you then end up finishing year 1 on in terms of billings-wise?

Yeah, so I finished on 174K in year 1. My target was, my initial target was 67.5, but then I hit that in month 6 and that went to 75. So I finished, yeah, I finished 232% of target and finished top revenue generator in the company as well, which I was super happy with. Really? Yeah, I was super happy with that my first year.

So yeah, honestly, that's amazing, right? And I think it's, I think that's just the prime, as you said, the perfect metaphor for recruitment, right?

Honestly, yeah, it really is.

Okay, so let's just talk, like, what changed, do you think? Like, if you think, I don't know, was there a moment where you was like, I just get it? Because you do have those sort of moments where things click, or as you said, you was trusting in the process. But what do you think changed?

It's a good question. I don't think there was like a light switch moment where I was like, right, I've, you know, I've got this nailed. You know, I still have— I mean, I've had a good year this year as well, but like self-doubt still creeps in sometimes, right, when you're having those little patches. But I think I really learned, yeah, to trust in the process. We've gone over that, but that was a real big thing for me, was like once it was almost like the floodgates opened and May was like boom boom boom. I was like, right, you know, this hasn't just come from something I've done in the last week or the last 2 weeks. It's come from the fact that I've been doing the right things consistently for enough period of time that you have to be— I think in the long term, if you do the right things over a long period of time, you have to be unlucky to kind of not at least do okay. So that was one thing. I think the second thing though was like, I just really, really read like a lot of books and absorbed a lot of content. Yeah. And just absorbed a lot of content. Like even if you don't like reading, because sometimes people say, oh, they don't like reading. It's like, well, that's fair enough. But There's like audiobooks, there's YouTube, there's like even videos on LinkedIn, there's webinars, there's like whatever you want to tap into, it's there to tap into. And I think I just really, really like became almost obsessed with consuming content about sales, not just recruitment, but just about sales and just about mindset. And I think that helped me a lot as well. And there was some like specific sales, I guess, salespeople I looked at. I looked a lot at Grant Cardone, and he did help me actually kind of— he's wacky, right? And, you know, some people hate him, but love him or hate him, he has a lot to offer, I believe. And he really taught me the idea of just 10x-ing activity and just allowed me to think, right, well, what's actually possible? Because his output is crazy, and I thought I was doing okay. So really helped me just raise my levels and raise my bar actually. And there was a couple of other like sales, you know, kind of videos and people I watched as well. So I think that was a big thing, was learning and development, trusting in the process, and just becoming, yeah, becoming more, putting myself in situations that I used to back out of, I think. Like, if I'm being honest, like, it sounds stupid to say, like, as a recruiter now, like, it wasn't I was scared of the phone, but for example, like, putting in the extra hard yards of actually doing the headhunt calls like actually ringing up decision makers and following up on emails and cold calling and, you know, doing all that stuff. It's like you can get away with not doing it sometimes and people do. They'll just like send out a message and you might find one or two people, but I just learned or tried to just really— the more uncomfortable I got, I found the more results that I was getting.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. Like, and again, yeah, I know, I think that's true. I think the more you can make yourself uncomfortable in the kind of sales environment, yeah, the more it helps me just kind of repeat that in the future. It's always hardest the first time you do something, but I think, yeah, the more conversations I put myself into, the more I asked for referrals, the more I cold called, you know, because one of my biggest clients, like, he's a company based in the US. It was one of my first, it was one of my first cold calls. I remember my boss being like, he'd replied to a LinkedIn message That's how we like went about new business. Then we've changed a lot of our processes since then. It's been part of the journey being a startup. But I remember my boss saying, oh, just give him a call. And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure. And I was like, oh my gosh, this guy's got a title that was like CEO. I was like, oh my goodness me. He was president before of this huge company as well. And I rang him and he was like the worst start ever. Cause I was like, hi, is this Dave? My voice was probably like quivering, to be honest. And he was like, hey man, he's like, are you in a cave? Are you in a cave? I was like, oh, the signal was so bad. He's like, call me back. So I'm like crapping it because I have to go and ring the guy again and go through the whole process again. Anyway, he's still, and that company is still my biggest client. So I think having that experience of like, right, actually, if I do the hard things that I know I don't have to do, but if I do them, I'll do better. That mindset pushed me on for the rest of the year then. And I think having that tangible example early on of like, right, that actually led to like, you know, half my yearly target in May, more than half my yearly target, that one call. It's like, if that can happen, it won't happen, but if that could, if I know in my head that can happen every time, I'm just gonna—

why would you not give yourself that chance?

Do whatever it takes. Yeah, exactly.

So how did— because I think a lot of people can read and a lot of people could like— there's so much information out there now, but I think you have to apply it, right? So how have you got better at sort of Like, or how have you made sure that you're not someone that just sits there and consumes content and does fuck all with it? Like, like, do you know what I mean? Because I think there's so many— so I look, those, the books, the people, like, they're sort of the things that I love consuming. Tony Robbins was one of the first people that I went to. I went to Unleash the Power Within 2 years ago. Um, and like, so, and I think you can very easily just always be consuming, always be looking for that sort of perfect way of doing, I don't know, just always looking for something that you think can solve your problem. But actually, it's got to be combined with a lot of action. And obviously, as you know, if anyone listens or follows Grant Cardone, it's all about action, right? So like, I don't know, what, what have, how have you made, like, what's your sort of thoughts on how have you made sure that you haven't been someone that's just taken it in and not done anything? Because I think a lot of people are those people.

Yeah, no, I think that's really fair. And it's very easy to do. You can get swept up in the moment and then it's forgotten about. And yeah, kudos. I love Tony Robbins as well. So he's been someone else I've kind of read and consumed. But yeah, I think you're right there. It's like action is key and that's what creates habits. Right. And that's really what I think I've managed to do is cultivate some good habits. I've still got plenty of bad ones and things I need to work on. But I think that's been part of it is like For example, if I consume something, A, I don't expect that everything I consume is going to really resonate with me. I think you get a couple of ideas from a book or from a video and you'll get the odd thing that really hits you. So I don't try and apply everything I read. I think that's the first thing. It can be like way too much. So I think find things that really resonate with you and you actually think, right, actually that could make a difference, that could help me. And then what I would do is I'd make a conscious effort because usually, you know, I'd listen to a book on the way into work, after work, and still take you a good week or two to get through it. So if I picked up on an idea I really liked, I'd set part of my goal setting in the morning would be I'm going to action that specific thing and really try and pin it down. So it might be, for example, I'm trying to think of something. That's a good example. I guess I actually had one recently. This wasn't something I read. It was kind of an idea, but I kept it by myself. So part of the Miracle Morning is these affirmations and visualization. And that was super foreign to me. I was like, this is really weird. Day 1 in my bedroom at 5 past 5, trying to visualize my life. I was like, this is crazy. But it did help in some ways. And what I took from that was like having an affirmation and having a visualisation, like keeping in mind why you're doing what you're doing. I think like that really helped me, for example. So I was like, right, okay, I need to actually make sure I do that. So if on my cold call blocks now, as I start, and this will sound crazy to some people, but it's helping me in the short term. So as I start, I'll say to myself, look, right, be grateful. I'll make some affirmations, you know, be grateful for what you've got. And be grateful for the opportunity. And I let that fuel me. And just before someone picks up the phone, you always hear that like, and you think, right, okay, I'm on now, I'm here. I always say to myself, I'm probably not going to die in my head. And then I go for it. But like, that's for example, like one idea I picked up was from the visualisation. But like what I did was I made it my goal. And I wrote it in my diary every day, I'm going to do that. And then that's become a habit. And now I find myself just saying it all the time. I'm like, Tried to ring my friend the other day and I started saying, be grateful. I was like, no, no, switch off. It's just like, you know, so I think that's like a really key thing for action is find a couple of ideas that resonate. Yeah, don't overwhelm yourself and dedicate, you know, a week or two to really enacting that habit and then move on, uh, because it only takes a few weeks and then it becomes like clockwork, doesn't it?

So yeah, no, I love that. Uh, really good advice. What, what's been the most impactful thing you've learned, you think, that's sort of helped you, or even in sales, business development, or just, just in that sort of coming up to the end of that year? You said obviously reading and learning, you really just immerse yourself in it, but anything that sticks out that sort of has really impacted you and has really helped?

Yeah, I think in terms, in terms of business development, obviously like Given the current situation, that's like, you know, that's most, most of my role since returning from furlough. The last few weeks has been really heavy, heavy on business development, which I enjoy, but nevertheless is, you know, it's tough. It's a tough grind every day. So I think, yeah, that little affirmation thing I mentioned is kind of helping me. But I think like a big thing for me, and it's come across in a few different books actually, I think Simon Sinek's Start With Why, is one. There's a book, what's that book called? I think it's Mark Manson's Something Off Not Giving a Fuck, something like that. But a couple of different books and like something I've really picked up actually is like, keep the why at the front of your mind. Like, why are you doing this? Because I found like, you know, the crap days in recruitment or weeks or months, and let's face it, they all happen and I'm only 18 months in, I'm sure, you know, people much more senior have had much more troubling periods for longer periods of time. But I think like when it gets like that, it's like there are various things that help you through it. But one big thing that helps me push myself and has helped me maybe make the extra calls or send the extra emails or work on the personalised video outreach or whatever it is, is like, right, why am I doing this? What's my end goal? What's my dream goals? And that's something actually I've learned is to be able to dream a lot bigger It was very good. Our boss helped— not helped us, but he like set us on the path of trying to put together a life plan. And when you're like 25, that's like really, really difficult, especially in this like environment. There's so many variables, right? So, but actually working towards that and having a clear picture, and of course that might change. Yeah, but it's like, here's what I want, and if I want to get there, I know I need to do like this action or this cold look or this whatever it is. That's going to help me get there. And I think that's really a big thing for me now. It's like, I'm just— everything I do, I try and do it with a purpose.

Yeah, I love that. That's so— that's— yeah. And I think if you haven't even thought about that, that's when you can find it really tough. Because if you're— yeah, that's going to really compel you to carry on and make those difficult calls. And yeah, I think that honestly, I think that's amazing that you've really been able to cultivate that mindset and think about it that way so early on. And not think about it as just a job and, oh, I've just got to hit my sales numbers or whatever, right? Okay, so let's talk about sort of going into the, obviously, second year, and we'll segue into sort of, I'd love to definitely talk about the business development piece in the current market, because I think a lot of people will be experiencing that. But how did you, 'cause I know that obviously you had a really good start to this year, right? I had a really good first quarter, and then obviously coronavirus, right?

Yeah.

So I'm sure you was thinking 2020, it's my year, got my goals down, all that, right? But you got off to a good start. What did you, what did you bill in your first quarter?

Yeah, so I billed 115 in Q1.

Not bad, is it?

No, it's okay, you know, you can't complain.

And just quickly, and just for context, because I know you mentioned it, but is that all abroad, sorry, or is it in the UK?

Yeah, yeah, so like when I first started, I was doing some stuff in the UK, so my first year, yeah, some of my placements in the UK, but this year it's been all in the US. So I've always done US and UK, and then at the end of last year, I kind of really focused all my energy energy and time on the US. So yeah, I do the US market at the moment.

And what state?

So at the moment there's 3 of us who do the US in my team and we all cover the whole of the US. So we're going with like that idea of critical mass really. We do a lot in New York, you know, that's probably a big hub, but yeah, throughout the US, like there's a big, super big culture over there of hiring remotely and so many of my customers will just say, like, I don't care where they're based. So it's super helpful to have that coverage. So yeah, big old territory at the minute. And hopefully as we grow our team, you know, that's, that's going to— when we're going to be able to niche down a bit further. But yeah, mainly the US.

So before we talk about sort of, yeah, how we like the period of going on furlough and how you sort of found that, blah, blah, blah. How has it— what's it been like penetrating the US market? Like, what are some of the things that you've had to learn or you've had to change your approach? Obviously, you're born in the UK, right? So like, what are the sort of nuances that you've had to adapt to and picked up on? But how's that actually been sort of selling and building relationships and being a recruiter in the UK but for the US market?

Yeah, good question. I don't want to put a downer on the UK here. I love British people, but actually the US are like just super positive on the whole. Of course, you're always going to get like, you know, bad reception from some people and, you know, that's just the nature of sales, right? But on the whole, like, yeah, people in the US are actually really receptive to kind of hearing you out, like opportunities and, you know, BD is a bit easier. So actually, yeah, it's kind of—

Why is BD a bit easier?

People will— well, twofold actually. Firstly, it's easier to get like contact details with people in the US. They don't buy into the whole GDPR thing. So, yeah, they're like really good for numbers and people don't get pissed off really when you ring them on the whole. Yeah, no, really, like, of course, like every week I get a handful of people who aren't too happy I've interrupted their day, which is fair enough. You know, I don't want my day interrupted sometimes, so I get it. But yeah, on the whole, they're a bit more receptive to at least hearing you out, I find. So it's not that it's easy necessarily to convert, but it's—

I think they normally will give you that opportunity to do like your personal pitch and why you're calling.

Yeah, yeah, they'll normally let you say who you are, why you're calling, and then if they're not interested, they'll let you know. But they'll at least normally hear you out. So I think they have a slightly different perception or approach, maybe Some stuff I've done in the UK, it's not been quite as positive as that on the cold outreach calls, right? So yeah, I found that that's actually a bit of an interesting difference that they're a bit more receptive to hearing from you.

That's interesting. And have you not had pushback then on like, you're in the UK or I don't know, like how do you approach that?

Yeah, I know. So we have like on the whole, no, I'd say most people don't don't flag it. But yeah, certainly some companies are like, why should I work with you when there's hundreds of recruiters in New York or wherever? So I think for them—

How do you handle that objection?

Yeah, so it always falls back to me on like, well, it's the strength of my network, right? So I've been doing the US since day one, like 18 months, but predominantly like full force for like 12 really, of like all out US pretty much. So For me, it's like, well, that's where my network is. That's where I already have people who could be relevant to you. And that's usually like a good kind of pitching sign. I've also got some like, I've also got a good video case study of a client I work with in Boston who did some great work for us just on like how good it's been to work with us and also like how the time zone and all that stuff isn't really much of a kind of difference for them. So, but yeah, I think that's the big thing is like, It's just what your network is, isn't it? With how connected we are in this day and age, you can kind of do any market, right? To be honest.

And then have you found— a lot of people say the fees are bigger in America. Have you found it easier to— obviously you did a bit in the UK. Obviously, you all know UK people in your office, unless they all do US. But have you found that you've been able to negotiate higher percentages?

It's a good question. Yeah, so we don't do too much in the UK. We do have some clients in the UK and we have a guy who does Europe as well. But yeah, on the whole, I'd say negotiation in the US is, yeah, it's usually pretty reasonable. You usually get pretty close to what you're asking.

On average, what would you say the average percentage is typically? Because in the UK, it's, I mean, if you're in a good place, it's like 20, maybe more than that, right? If you're decent. But a lot of people will be working at 15%. During this period, they would have drawn that potential 10% and under, right? So what have you found has typically been the sort of average percentage you've been able to lock in?

Yeah, good question. I think on average it probably is 20%, or maybe slightly higher. I'd say 20%, and we get a few at 22.5%, 25%. So probably 20%.

And the salaries must be bigger.

Yeah, so the salaries are pretty good, to be fair, especially when you're doing states like New York, you know, like San Francisco as well, just like the standard of living is so much higher. And I remember like one of my first, first calls at Org3D, like bear in mind the background I've come from, I was on like £250 a month, like training. It was not lucrative. Like I remember in May, in my like big, big month of commission, it would have taken like 12 years to earn that.

Really?

I remember working it out. It was something insane. Yeah. So, but yeah. I can't remember what I was saying there. Oh yeah, so one of my first phone calls and I, you know, obviously asking like, so what are your expectations for your next role? And the guy said something like £100K and I nearly fell off my chair. I was trying to be professional though on the phone, like, oh yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is like a whole new world to me. So, but yeah, the salaries over there are pretty good.

So what's been your average fee?

Yeah, so our average fee as a company is around £15K.

£1,000. Yes, yes, it's not bad, that, is it?

Yeah, no, it's not bad. But like, I've had— I mean, in the US, I mean, that's like a company average, right? And we, we do different, different geographies. But in the US, like, I had two, two this year. One was $40K, one was $30K. So yeah, you can get some, you can get some pretty decent fees over there.

Okay, so let's just talk a bit about being on furlough, great start to the year, coronavirus hits. We'll see America's been hit bad as well, right? Um, how, how, like, what, what was going through your head? Like, I don't know, how did you do it? So how long was your furlough for?

Uh, 6 weeks.

How, like, how was it?

Um, yeah, it's funny, like I think you put it in a good way there. That was my mindset. Like, I'd had a really good Q1. I had some stuff that was going into Q2, some solid, like, last-minute deals that were pulled, as everyone probably has experienced. But yeah, from like a psychological standpoint, I was like, yeah, this can be a tremendous year. Then all of a sudden, like, the rug's pulled from underneath your feet and, you know, things dropped out super quick and all that. But Yeah, to me furlough was like, it was okay, you know, I just tried to make the most of it because I knew that it was the best thing for the company. I think like, I really feel for people who were on furlough. You know, some people say, oh well, it's, you know, it's, you're off and you're getting paid, so what? But I think like for me, or from my perspective, like when you're like part of a company and the type of people that good recruiters are and the type of people we try to hire. They really, really want to help that company in a tangible way and they want to make a difference. And the hardest thing to do when you have that mindset, I think, is to sit on the bench, so to speak, and not be able to make a tangible difference. So I think that bit is hard, but yeah, I just kind of tried to make the most of it and just think, well, it's the best thing for the company, so I will, you know, I'm I'm sacrificing myself in a different way. I'm not doing the hard BD yards, but I am saving them, you know, cash flow and helping them and just doing what's right for them. So that's kind of how I viewed it really. I just took loads of time to read, try and do some things I enjoyed and relax, and I've come back nice and fresh. But yeah, my two, the two people in my team, they're coming back on 1st July, so not long now, but they've been off even longer than me. I stayed on for a little while, so they've been off quite a while and yeah, they're just chomping at the bit to get back and I think that's the big thing I've noticed since returning is like part of like life for me and like not to get too deep but it's really about doing something purposeful, like finding something meaningful and adopting responsibility and like really going for that goal and I think like when you can't work that's like really hard to do because a lot of people's goals and purpose and what they want to achieve is around their career, right? So sure, yeah, it It was difficult in some ways, but also, yeah, I tried to take it as like, right, this is the only chance I'll get before I retire to do this. Try and, try and be positive and just try and do what I can do. And yeah, just did some golf, did some reading and all that stuff. So yeah, it was okay, it was okay. But I'm glad to be back.

And what, what was it like getting back? Because I think this is what's going to be interesting, right? I recorded the podcast earlier with— I think, I think there's a bit of a balance that like 6 weeks on furlough, like my girlfriend's been on furlough from the very beginning and it's been a rollercoaster, right? Good days, bad days, more productive weeks, less productive weeks. But I think if you're someone that's found it really hard to be productive and you get the analogy that a lot of people have been using, which I think is a good one, is off the bench and on the pitch, right? Like that, it's going to be, you're going to, it's going to hit you like a ton of bricks as to what the market's actually like, right? So as you said, you've been solidly business development, you need to get business on, roles that you can work, because I'm assuming that you had a significant drop, um, in, in positions. So coming back off furlough, relax, as you said, golf, reading, relaxed, into the quote-unquote real world, what was that, what was it actually like? What what was you most surprised about?

Yeah, I think I slightly underestimated how difficult those first few days would be, if I'm being honest. It's a super swift and hard-hitting transition from doing absolutely nothing to, you know, being like 100 miles an hour again. You know, that's like a really hard transition. I think like Again, going back to lesson earlier, don't be too hard on yourself in those first few days because it is difficult, as much as I was excited to get back. So that was the first thing. I think, yeah, like in terms of market, it was actually for me, strangely, it's been better than I expected. I don't mean to sound positive, like everything's fine. It certainly isn't at all. Yeah, my big push and our company's big push is still very much on jobs and business development. But yeah, that period, like, just before I went on furlough, yeah, that was probably like, for me, like, just like the lowest, or like the lowest point in terms of like ability to succeed, because I think it was just like, I was making so many calls and it was the same thing everywhere. Everyone was in a state of panic, no one was hiring. Yeah, we had offers pulled, as everyone probably did, as I said, and demand just fell through the floor. So I think like the positive is that I think things are certainly picking up a bit, certainly in my kind of area. I can't speak for recruitment in general, but I certainly feel from what I'm hearing that things are starting to pick up a bit, which is good. But I think, yeah, just like don't be too hard on yourself in those first few days. Yeah, I think like that was like—

Because what market you in again?

Sorry. What's the market you operate in? Yeah, so I specifically do sales roles within, broadly speaking, it's the data analytics space, but I've historically done a lot within like marketing technology.

So how have you been approaching business development corner? Because that's going to be a push that everyone's going to be told that they need to focus on. You need to get jobs, need to like new with new clients or even existing clients. But like, how have you been approaching it and how's it been going?

Yeah, good, good question. First, first, like, first back, like, my first week was really like, yeah, is there any low-hanging fruit? Which is like, reach back out to all existing clients, see what's happening on their end. You know, a lot can change in a short space of time, right? And 6 weeks is a decent period considering what's been going on. So that was my first port of call for like B2B, is like, right, what's out there? Secondly was like, who have I had conversations with? I always keep a list of people I've had meaningful conversations with, people who reply or at least engage with you as a recruiter, you know, they're at least more likely to have a conversation. So that was like my first week's project really, was like re-engage with all customers and also candidates as well, right? See what they're doing, they're like super important. Obviously a lot of them have been hard hit by layoffs, you know, they've been let go or they've left of their own accord. With things happening as well. So yeah, I think that was my first week really, was like reconnect with everyone. That's like the hardest bit I think actually, going from like, you know, when you're used to having, if you've been up and running, you're used to having a pipeline, you're used to talking about interviews, talking about CVs, and a couple of people in the cyber team had carried on. So when I'm coming back and my big achievement is like, oh, I spoke to a couple of people today and they're like, oh, I've got an interview, and it's hard mentally actually. So I think like be prepared for that if there's people in your business who have still been going try and remember that, like, you're coming back to a standing start. Basically, you may as well start again, you know. So that was like a really big thing. It was like, yeah, it's like starting again almost. So yeah, BD, I initially reached out to all those people, and it's really been, yeah, back to the drawing board. And we're having a lot of conversations at the moment. I think this is important for companies as well, is like taking this time to really think, innovate, and create like new strategies and, you know, just kind of try different things. It's not to say to be reckless and abandon what you're doing if it's working, but I think like we've certainly, we're going to come out of this with some new business development strategies for sure. I mean, we've typically, you know, gone out and specced out candidates quite a lot and that works and has had success and it's having more success now than it did 2 months ago, right? For sure, we've had a couple of clients and a couple of interviews. However, you know, where we're normally in a very candidate-short market, that's changed, and everyone will speak to an overachieving salesperson, as you said, that's changed big time. And so yeah, so we're looking at, you know, how we can sell in terms of our services as a product, you know, in terms of can we help people hire, for example, by saving them kind of revenue if we were to do a 12-month contract, you know, there's lots of various ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of a big thing we're doing at the moment and seeking, you know, help and really reaching out to those people who are also business leaders, particularly my boss is doing that, and just getting some really solid advice on like what's working. So I think, I hate that word, everyone says it, you know, unprecedented, but it is different for sure. Yeah, what's like worked in the past might not work now, so I think that's the thing, is to be able to like embrace change as well, and that's something we're experimenting with, using for example video, voice notes, trying loads of different things, not just always pitching out candidates, trying a different approach approach. So yeah, just really be diverse.

Yeah. And then obviously, so when you came back, you had zero jobs.

Yeah, zero jobs.

And then so where are you at now? So it's 3 weeks in, been to business development, been trying different things. Where you like, how many live jobs have you managed to pull?

I've got—

so go on.

Yeah, I've got 5 live jobs and one of those is a retainer. So I've sold my services to a client.

Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, and obviously, like, so before this, had you ever sold a retainer?

I've never sold a retainer.

Love that. Yeah, where'd that come from? How did you approach that? How did you communicate that?

Yeah, well, I think there's a couple of, like, factors to it. Firstly, like, as a company, we're trying to have more emphasis on retained work and at least, like, instill that into us as a mindset because I think it's one of the old classics, isn't it? Like, if you don't ask, you don't get. And yeah, I think I've never had a retainer, but how many times have I really asked for one? I think probably not very often. I've actually got another proposal outstanding at the minute, so could be another one. But that's the thing, I think, is just getting into the habit of like asking and making that a cultural thing of like, right, okay, if we're gonna negotiate our terms, which is how this one came about, if we're gonna negotiate something what can we get in return? And that's really what we do is getting creative with a fee structure that was going to be a good offering to the client. Obviously also, if we can get something upfront, we're flexible on how that works. But yeah, I think that was a big thing, like a company-level awareness of like, this is a good thing to be doing. People do it, I think often recruiters think, like, they don't really buy into it themselves. I think they just think, oh, what contingent? And then they don't really ask. So I think that was a big thing. We're actually doing some recruitment— sorry, like retainer-specific training next week as well. So we're getting someone in to help us do some specific training. But yeah, in short, how this one came about was yet to ask. But also it was like, it was— I mean, this was a client that I've worked with before. So I have— yeah, it's my biggest client personally. I'd placed quite a few people. He helped me a lot last year. And has already made, you know, some purposeful kind of strides this year as well. So that helps. I have the buy-in with him. He knows that I service him.

I think the key thing there, Connor, and a lot of people could have just— you've done— the way that you've done it is the way that you've always done it, right? And you wouldn't have won that retainer or got that retained work if you didn't ask. I think that's part of it, isn't it?

That's the big thing. Like, he was prepared to give it, but I just didn't ask him. Exactly. Like, I remember on the call yesterday, I thought I was getting to the crunch moment of like, right, here's what I want. And I thought, right, I was bracing myself for the objections. I was kind of prepared, right? What's he gonna say? And he was like, yeah, he's like, I don't see an issue. You know, you need some commitment that I'm gonna make a hire, so that's fine. And he just like came through. But think in your head sometimes, I'm often guilty of this actually. I had a really good placement come from someone who I wasn't going to call because I didn't think the company was going to be relevant. It turned around in a week and it was a $20,000 placement in the US. And I thought, I was like, not going to call him. And my boss was like, no, just give him a call. That was pure luck because it was like an American guy and it was like an Italian company and the CEO was in London. I was just like, I can't see this panning out. Anyway, yeah, that happened. It happened to me again with a Swiss company. I got a role on with them in the US. They have no one in the I was like, oh, he's not going to be looking and it came on. So I think that's a good lesson is sometimes you can put your own mindset and thoughts into the other person and you project that and that takes you out of so many questions. So I think, yeah, just like get rid of that and ask the question and you might be surprised by the answer.

And look, before we finish, what's— because I think a lot of people can get value out of this. What, as you said, you've been trying different things, been trying to innovate. What have you noticed in the last 2 weeks that sort of helped you cut through, or sort of that has had a bit of an impact on the business development side that you've noticed? I don't know if it's sending out video outreaches or voice notes. I don't know, is there anything that sort of you've actually been really surprised with that's done really well?

Yeah, I mean, we're certainly trying video. That's like obviously a big thing. We've not done it long enough to see if it's having huge results, to be honest. But yeah, that's certainly something we're trying. LinkedIn Connects is something that sometimes we forget about, but actually just putting a little pitch in there and getting them connected, and then once they're connected, you can send them a personalised video or voice note. That helps. And something I've been doing on my voicemails that actually I've had a few callbacks from, and even if they don't call me back, they'll reply to the email, which is quite nice. I don't have to leave them another 4 voicemails that week. Is my last line, I just say, if I don't hear from you, I'll follow up with you on Wednesday or Thursday or whatever. And they know I'm coming for them then and they tend to give me a call back. So that's actually something someone told me. I read it on LinkedIn, but it seems to work, to be fair. They seem to be, you know, not on everyone for sure. Those people don't listen to voicemails, but yeah, I've had a bit more response and a few engagements from callbacks actually from just letting them know if they don't call me back, I'll be calling them again. I love that.

So look, Connor, before we finish, if I'm listening up right now and I'm a recruiter, I'm due to come back off furlough July 1st, you've been back off, obviously back on the pitch now for the last couple of weeks, what should I be thinking about and what would you be saying to me?

Yeah, I think firstly, something I said to share with my own team was my mindset was like, this is going to be hell, but I was prepared for it. I was like, you know, this is just part of what we have to get through. But that's because the experience I had prior to furlough is very different to the market now. It is picking up a bit. So I think first, mentally, try and stay positive. I read a really good book just before I came back that I'm convinced has helped me. I think it helped me with the retainer. It's not a sales book, but I think the mentality of the book helped me with the retainer. It's called The Obstacle Is the Way. Yes, such a good book. I've had a few people recommend that. So I think that actually helped me because my client threw up an obstacle and the resolution has led to a retainer and of no less of a fee. So I think that that book helped me, but it also helped me mentally just be prepared for things and just have a good mindset. So I think that's the key thing, is be optimistic because it's not all doom and gloom and it's not as as bad as when you were last on furlough. I think come back with high levels of energy and activity. I think that's the key thing. It's still like pretty big on quantity at the minute just by nature of the market, but I think also like don't be too hard on yourself as well and continue to kind of learn and develop and feed your mind with positivity between now and your return and particularly When you get back in those mornings, just feed your mind with positivity. I think that's really helpful given the circumstances we're in. Yeah, finally, keep your end goals in mind. That's helping me remember why you're doing it and that this will pass.

Love that. Honestly, Connor, I absolutely love the mindset you've cultivated, mate. Honestly, I think it's awesome. So look, last question: what's Connor most excited about in a post-corona COVID world? What are you most excited to do professionally, personally? What are you excited about?

Personally, I'm most excited about going on a holiday. I love traveling. I had a trip to Italy booked to go back to Rome. I had a cruise booked as well, and obviously they've hit the dust. So I'm super excited to personally to get back on a holiday. Professionally, I'm actually really excited as corny as this sounds, it's true, to get back into the office properly. I'm doing like 1 day a week at the minute, but there's only 4 of us in. It's all very like surgical, obviously, with distancing, but to be able to get back in the office and just have that buzz, and I think that's gonna like just drive everyone on. I know that we'll all achieve so much more together when we've all got that, yeah, kind of togetherness in the office. So professionally, I'm really looking forward to actually getting back in the office. Homeworking's been great, but Yeah, there's nothing like that buzz on a sales floor in the afternoon.

Connor, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you, really appreciate it.