Daniel Cox - Staying consistent becoming a shareholder & why keeping it simple in Recruitment is key

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Daniel Cox, who until very recently was a director at Consul Partners. Dan joined Consul Partners as a trainee consultant and within 10 years progressed through the ranks, working as a principal, head of division, until he left Consul Partners, was the director of communications. When Dan joined the business, it was a progressive startup, and by the time he left, he'd been part of the incredible growth journey that led the company to get acquired by Empresaria Group in 2017. Dan, thanks for coming on the podcast.

No worries, Hishem, good to be on.

So, where we always like to start, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

I suppose that's the magic question, isn't it, you know, from that side. So I think the key characteristics that I see over the years is somebody having a why, and I know that might sound a little bit different, but the job, you know, is fun, don't get me wrong, but it's also very, very hard at times, you know, it's an emotional roller coaster. And, you know, from my point of view, people have got to, you know, when you're getting up at 7 in the morning or working till 8, 9 o'clock at night and having to do weekend work, whatever it is, to support your clients and candidates at times, when the chips are down, you've got to be able to fall back on something and understand what am I actually doing this for? You know, that's not, it could be anything, you know, and from my side, I'll talk about my why in a little bit more detail later, but I think that's so, so important. You know, I see so many people that come into the business and businesses that speak to other leaders and they're like, they don't really know why they're joining recruitment, you know, and what do they want to achieve out of it. And I think that's really, really important from that side. So it doesn't have to be financial, it could be an array of things, but it's really important that firstly, outside of main characteristics that we can discuss, it is really understanding what your why is. Why am I doing it?

Love that.

And then I suppose on the other thing, you know, hard working, determined, and focused on hitting goals, you know, I think they're the key ones. But the key one for me is, you know, really understanding what you're doing, why you're doing it.

Yeah, love that. And really quickly, because I know we were talking a bit before this and you said, yeah, literally had a couple of days after you graduated uni and then entered the recruitment industry, but I think people were interested about this. So very quickly then, like, did your why change throughout your career?

No, to be brutally honest, my why was, you know, I was broke, like from my side, like most students from that side, I was, you know, I was thinking of going back into the building trade before I took the interview with Consult Partners. I was a scaffolder before I went to university. Took a year out and done that and it was amazing. But I think the cold mornings definitely made me realise, right, what do I want to do, you know, and that's really important and that for me resonates really well in regards to what my why is, you know. On the Friday, I finished university on the Friday and, you know, I got the nod a couple of weeks before in recruitment and Consul and they said, can you start on the Monday? And I was like, yeah, let's do it, let's go for it, you know, I didn't overthink it, I think that it's just go for it. I needed the money, like I mentioned before, I was in the red, like most students from that side. So I think, yeah, from my point of view, that was key, yeah.

Okay. So just very quickly then, could you describe what Consul Partners looked like when you joined?

Yeah.

Right, which was, yeah, just under 10 years ago. Yeah. And then just very quickly describe what it looked like by the time you left, and then I think that'll be great context for people to understand the journey it's been on, then we'll dig into the sort of early days and then talk about the rest of it.

Yeah, absolutely. So walk through the doors, there was probably, I think it was about 16 people, if that. There was 3 main divisions at the time, sort of like content, communications, and digital. Ryan Adams, the Signify CEO, was there at the time, so great character, you know, straight away gravitated towards his his mindset, and it was literally focusing on small teams, you know, that was literally it. There was, you know, like I said, 16, 17 people there. My team that I joined, there was only 2 people, like the manager at the time and another guy that actually got me the interview at CONSOB. I met him down the gym one night and he said, you know, we're hiring, because I said I was interviewing at another place, so yeah, so I had 2 interviews that day. So Yeah, it's a very, very small business. When I left the business earlier this year, it was 80 people, global offices in the US, 2 in the US and 1 in UK London. The team size was around, I think it was around 45 people in my division still, and then in the permanent side as well, very, very similar numbers. So yeah, it went through a crazy amount of growth in a fairly short amount of time. And I'll be grateful for that forever, you know, it's sort of starting a business, a fairly new fresh startup business. Mark and Graham, at the time, that were running the business, they were very aggressive in where they wanted to go and they always had their vision. So yeah, the vision never changed, but it was a lot smaller back then to where it is today.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, one of my first questions was, because I think, um, I don't know how many sort of other recruitment business owners that you've spoken to and stuff like that, but like, I think a typical recruitment story or dream is that you build up a recruitment business and sell it, right? And, and like, how, how often does that actually happen? I'm not actually sure from speaking to people on, on this podcast and things like that. So I guess, yeah, my first sort of question, you were just touching on it, was like, why do you think sort of Consult Partners were able to achieve what they did? Do you think, from your lens and looking at it from your point of view?

Great question. I think Consul always seemed to be one step ahead with the markets. So what I mean by that is that we, you know, Mark at the time and Graham and the leadership team, were always looking at like what was next, what was our clients, what was our customers focusing on in the next 2 years, not what they already were doing. It was like, what's next, for example. So and they built their business models around that. And I think that was very effective very early on because clients, we would be talking to clients about technology that they were investing in, and we would be ready with ready-made candidates, candidates that either upskilled theirself in that place. So I think markets were key. I think, you know, they were very futuristic in regards to focusing on what's next for the clients and customers. The technology was, and still is today, is a great area, you know, and it's always going to be, a need and a focus for clients and candidates. So, you know, as we all know, with the tech space, it's just crazy what's going on and what's being focused on and how— and the evolution of what's going on in the next few years. So, yes, I think that's the key one, the markets, the people. You know, that was probably the best thing about the business ever since. There were some amazing people that worked and still work at that business. And from very early on, that bar was set very, very high. You know, I used to talk to friends in the industry and talking to them about some of the numbers that we were doing and as a business, at a time just a UK business, we didn't have US entities back then. And some of them were saying, blimey, we've, you know, we've got 3 offices and we're not doing that, you know, and then also individual numbers, you know, were well above average. You know, average is anything between sort of— my average is slightly higher, but I would say if you're doing 150 a year, that seems to be fairly good in the market. You know, there was individuals in that market, and, you know, from when I joined, that were doing 3 times that, 4 times that, you know, with 2 years, 3 years experience. And that was because certain individuals had the right mindset. It was a competitive working environment but collaborative, which I think is so important for culture. Yeah, and I think the people and the markets. I mean, there's nothing else, there's no magic answer apart from really those two. I think they, you know, the owner's done amazing to keep hold of some really good people.

Yeah, so I've got 2 very quick questions on this, and then I'm excited to dig into the sort of the period where you were just focusing on billing for that sort of 4-5 year period. So the first one is, people may be listening to this and sort of may want you to sort of share, I guess, a bit more context on, okay, Dan, really great point and interesting point around emerging markets or like being futuristic. So I guess my question to you on that was like, I don't know, 1 to 3 things that you think typically they looked for that would give them confidence that it was a market that they wanted to invest resources in. Do you get what I mean? I think that's what people would be interested in. So I don't know, anything that comes up for you on that?

Yeah, of course. So, you know, one thing we were big on is like market intel. So understanding like where we were starting to see trends. So very early on, I was told to developed, like, you know, I've still got it today, it's basically like from 24, 25 years ago, is like the market intel and looking at trends in that market intel. So looking at like what candidates are talking about, where maybe people are saying where jobs are going to be, what's the focus, and also what your clients are saying, you know, what is next for them, where are they next investing. And then you'll start seeing a repetition, you'll start seeing technology sort of start coming up and from that side. And just to keep it really simple is it's a natural progression, you know, 3G is now 4G, 5G now, you know, and that's what I mean. And looking at those trends in those markets to understand really where you position yourself, I think that's really important. And then looking at like the amount of leads, so like I'm not talking about intel, I'm talking about actual leads that are coming through candidates, clients, referrals, whatever it is that however, whatever your way of doing things is, everyone has a slightly different way of doing things, but looking at leads and really understanding what the market's saying. And then you can make a real, I suppose, collective decision with your manager or whatever it is at the time that this and this, the market's telling me that this is going to be big, you know, this is a real focus, this is going to be a high skill demand. And then you're not going into it really, you know, it's finger in the air sort of thing, you've really got an understanding and you can have real conversations with new prospective clients, you know, and I think that's where that value-add comes in. You can actually take that conversation to the next level rather than just saying, I've seen you're looking for X, I've got Y. It's that, you know, yes, that's effective in some ways, but clients now are looking for— well, even then, you know, nearly 10 years ago, they were looking for something slightly different. And yeah, that's how I managed to break some interesting clients back then that you know, that helped me to move forward.

Yeah, no, that's great. And I think what I love about that is that for anyone listening, just, it's just so important to have sort of holistic business conversations, right? And if you're asking good questions like, yeah, where do you see the market in the next couple of years? Or like, just being curious and asking questions like that, you're then not talking about recruitment. And if you have multiple conversations with people like that day in, day out, well, guess what? You've got an amazing insight there where then when someone doesn't sort of, doesn't speak about the same thing, you can go, well, actually, I've been speaking to these people and they're sort of thinking about this. What do you think about that? And all of a sudden, as you said, you're, you're adding value in these things. So great answer on that. And then the final bit, you were talking about the people part. So just the final thing that I just wanted to ask you, because I'm always interested, is basically what What do you think were like the 3 non-negotiables of the console culture?

Apart from playing 5-a-side, no, I'm joking. That was, that we used to have a lot of 5-a-side team. No, non-negotiables, I think work ethic. Like if you, if you wasn't a hard worker, you would be shown up because like any, any agency, you know, there are objectives and, you know, you share your successes at the end of the week. You know, that was a massive thing for Consol. We would talk about all the successes and if there was anyone having a challenge, we'd talk about that as a business. Of course, when we were a lot smaller and we'd all help each other out and give advice, but work ethics, Keith, you know, you would be, you know, definitely exposed because everyone was really focused and honing in on trying to trying to better their market, better theirself, and trying to push to that common goal to take the business to the next level. So the first one's definitely work ethic. Second one is being a good person. I know that sounds a bit cliché, but you've got to be a good person, right? You know, you've got to be approachable in the face. You can't let success, you know, get over your head a little bit. You know, the recruitment, I call it the recruitment gods, like recruitment has a funny way of bringing you back down to earth pretty quickly, and if you lose track of really like what your why is and what you're doing here and also focusing on helping other people out as well, because you were junior at one point, right, you know, you were asking other people for help and I remember this time when I was like, you know, 4 years in, 3 years in I think it was, and I missed director's lunch for the first time in I don't know, 22 months or something like that because we used to do it every single month. And I went over and I missed director's lunch by £1,800. And I went over and asked one of the directors at the time, I said, like, I can't believe I didn't hit it. What could I have done to do better? You know, and that's not because I wanted to look good in front of the directors. It was really like, I must be missing a trick here because I was doing something before that I'm not, I didn't do this month and it's affected my, numbers, right? And it was like, I think I finished on, like I said, £1,500 short. Some people would have been really happy with that and said, oh, you know what, I've still hit, well, I've achieved my target for the month. But that just wasn't where I wanted to be. It's not why I joined recruitment. That wasn't what I wanted to do. You know, I didn't want to be average as such. And then I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with that, but what I'm trying to say is my why is about providing for my family, which is the number one priority, and being a good person in that state. So I was combining all of that and providing for my family, or my now wife, but girlfriend at the time, who has expensive tastes. I didn't want to take a step back. So just little things like that is that even at that time when things are still going well, just take a step back and think, well, what could I have done better? Because there's always someone out there that is performing, doing better, doing more things, more innovative ideas, different ideas that can generate more business and better relationships.

So yeah, yeah, nice. Okay, work ethic, big, big— yeah, okay, nice. So let's dig into this then. So just for context, Dan, for people listening, so you've, you've always been a contract recruiter. So for the first, yeah, 4 to 5 years when you were just focused on billing before you went into a more leadership position, you was a contract recruiter. And I know you said it was market-specific, but that with the markets that you did, that typically meant that what locations did you end up sort of doing business in, just for context for people?

Yeah, most of it was sort of the Nordics and sort of Germany and Belgium and Ireland. They were the main sort of sweet spots for where projects were at that time. In regards to sort of my focus areas.

Cool, so always interested to hear, I know you said the standards were high and there was people doing really well there, but how would you describe sort of Dan's first year, early years in recruitment?

Well, funny you say that, I think I nearly got booted after the first 4 weeks. My manager at the time told me that, so it's, you know, I come in into the job with lots of enthusiasm, a bit of a yes man, a bit of a, you know, naturally we all go through that. Your manager's giving you advice. Have you got that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All good. Yeah, I know what I'm doing. First couple of weeks, I used to sit on the phone and like cower a little bit because I didn't want other people— I thought that people were listening to my phone calls. I don't know why, because nobody was, you know, it's like, you know, they've got their own stuff to be dealing with. But it was just, I've never been in that type of environment in an office before. So the first month I struggled. I didn't do my first resourcing deal for I think it was 8 weeks or something like that. So yeah, and then after that, it just clicked. Like, I kept going, I kept getting up earlier. I was in the office about quarter to 8, half 7, quarter to 8 most mornings because I work European time. So I knew that I'd normally catch candidates at an earlier stage rather than, you know, mid-morning when they were normally in meetings, when they were in the office at the time, when things were normal. Yeah, and then from that stage, yes, and it just clicked. And I suppose the answer was I started to get a grasp on what I was recruiting for. I started picking up what is, how to actually recruit, you know, getting effective with Boolean searches and headhunting and really sort of starting to ramp up speaking to clients. So, yeah, I used to drive my old manager mad at times because within like 8 weeks. I always had quite a natural flair for business development, not that I knew it at the time, and don't say I wasn't good at it at first, but I just, I was quite keen to get on with business development because I felt that that's where I needed to be and the business needed that at that time, to be honest. And yeah, so then I moved into, I suppose, a junior sales job or junior consultant job in about September time. So I had about 10 weeks of recruiting my manager's jobs at the time. And then it was sort of, right, we'll go out and build a business now based on demand and where we see the markets going.

Amazing. So let's just talk about that for a second, because I was going to ask you, when did you then go into more of a 360 role? So I was a permanent recruiter, but from the contract recruiters I've interviewed and met, Obviously, you still have to do the candidate work and it's really important, you know, your network and spend time with them. However, yeah, if you—

it's—

you need to get the projects or you need to get the businesses and understand what they're hiring and all these types of things. It seems like, yeah, if you can get— if you can get very good at winning business, then you back yourself to do the candidate part, right? But that's something you've always got to be constantly building in terms of your candidate pools. But it seems like the key is the BD side and the client side, if you're going to be really successful?

Oh, well, I'd argue that now, to be fair, because the way that everything's moving ahead, you know, there's some really good 180 billers, you know, like sales and candidates, for example, is like, you know, you need both sides, you know, it's part of the job, isn't it? You need both sides on that. So At that particular time, I had to go out and sell. There wasn't really another option because we were building the business and this, well, we say we were building the division from fairly scratch. There were buying customers, but there wasn't really enough to focus on delivering at that point. So it was more that I was in a position that I wanted to do it. And also I really wanted to get out there and build a business for myself because it comes back to my wire, you know, from that side. I think there's both aspects to it. I think I've met some incredible people that have a 180 model that are so much better than certain salespeople at candidate relationships, and that's so prevalent now because those candidates will move into senior roles, you know, they will progress just like I did with Consul, just like you did. You naturally progress. So if you can build up good tangible relationships early on and keep in touch with them, add value, try and find them newer positions, they're naturally at some point going to be in a hiring, managing position, you know, and that's where that relationship piece is so key. So yeah, I would argue that, you know, it's so both important to have that 360 element, you know, you can bring in jobs, but if you can't find the right candidates or you haven't got the good enough relationships, well, you're not going to do deals, you know, and that's the—

No, yeah, sure. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, definitely. Okay, cool. So I guess, but, but I'll be honest with you, where, where, and it's something I definitely struggled with early on, and what every time I speak to recruiters, that the most popular area that they want to develop and improve is client development. That, that's just like typically what the response— won't be for everyone, but typically that's where a lot of recruiters want to improve. Yeah. Um, which is why I wanted to sort of ask you around your sort of client development journey, really. So I guess Like you just said, you're building this from scratch. Like, what, looking back, and maybe you can speak to recent times as well when working with your team and people, but like, what ended up being your most effective method of growing your client network?

Delivering. You know, like I said, it's a 460. So, you know, most of my clients at that time were either system integrators at the time, so they were winning part of the project from a vendor or an operator on that side. So they were, you know, from their side, needed candidates quickly. But there was also a lot of people that were in that market in regards to what they were focusing on. But you had to have your product, and that is candidates from that side. So, you know, my first deal, I remember it now, was I rung this hiring manager up and, you know, great guy, still speak to him. Today and he said to me, listen, I've got an offer on a candidate, you know, I really appreciate your time, but I'm going to get the offer out tomorrow. And, you know, I had 4 months' experience, probably my naivety at the time, but I said to him, right, why don't you just give me tonight? If I can find you someone that's better than you've got offered at the moment, would you be open to reviewing that profile? And he said, if you can find me someone better than that, then I'll shake your hand because this guy that I've got at the moment is amazing. I didn't know what to do next. So I literally, 5 o'clock in the evening, I've got on the, I've reached out to my network and system and stuff like that. And luck be have it, this incredible candidate said to me, yeah, I am actually interested in looking, not sure on the location, 'Need some time to think about it.' So I said, 'Okay, cool, well, do some research tonight.' Sent him a load of bumfuzz in the office till late that night. And I gave him, I said, 'You free for a call in the morning, first thing?' And he said, 'Yeah, yeah, no worries.' And he spoke to his partner and said, 'Yeah, listen, let's go for this. You know, I'm looking to get into more into freelancing now, contracting.' Sent the profile over and the manager responded within 2 minutes saying, 'I don't know how you've done that, but I want to interview this guy. He's got product knowledge that we haven't seen. This other guy hasn't got it.' And they interviewed him that day and offered him that evening. It was crazy. But that's again, like having— it was definitely naivety from my side, but also, you know, just asking the question. A lot of people just don't ask the question, you know, and backing yourself a little bit. And it might have come back to bite me, but fortunately, the candidate I've placed numerous times throughout the years as well, and he's actually a good friend of mine now as well. You know, it all works out in the end, but sometimes just ask the question on that side for sure.

But yeah, so, so building on that then, so you said sort of just delivering there and backing yourself, but like, I guess a big part, um, of what recruiters need to do is, is maintaining and sort of keeping a consistent pipeline. So how, how did you, how did you continue to achieve that?

I suppose firstly the obvious is bringing in business constantly, like it was natural at that period, like if I had, and knowing your ratios was key, knowing your numbers, what you need to do to hit X and Y. And at any given time, I'd be juggling when I was 360, for example, between 8 and 12 vacancies a week. That was naturally, and that was accounts that I'd built up and built relationship with, and that was warm. And that's also new areas that I wanted to bring in, new clients. So consistently, looking at your customer base and if, you know, reviewing that on a monthly basis. If you've got A customer, you've only got 1 or 2 A customers and you've got a lot of B or C customers, what do you need to do to get those to A customers? So what I mean by A customers is that, are they buying from you monthly? Do they have jobs? Are they the decision makers? Loads of different areas and just keep reviewing your business because customers that I might have worked with in January could have been on my de-list by, I don't know, March or April because they may not have been hiring or they weren't the right quality. And I think timing, your time is so, so precious on that side. So really understanding, you know, are your clients buying? Do they really value what you're doing and can you deliver? You know, there's no point working jobs that you don't really know what you're talking about because, you know, that's, you know, you're going to lose a relationship there that from that side.

Okay, so let's just talk about time quickly because this is something that a lot of people— like you just said, you were juggling a lot of things there, right?

Yeah.

Um, and I think as recruiters, that, that's something that you have to just try and improve at consistently.

Yeah.

Um, so I guess from a sort of— from you sort of becoming a, um, successful contract biller, I guess people want to know like how you, how you run your day to get the most out of it. So you're talking about it there. Like your time is really precious, which is where this question comes from and why, why people want to know it. So like from, from your journey, like what, again, what became your sort of typical day or what did you do day in, day out to make sure that you maximized your time?

Sure. So the first thing I'd say is the best recruiters, permanent, contract, doesn't matter where, who, you know, what markets you're focusing on, keep it simple. Like they don't overcomplicate it. And, you know, the amount of times that I've, when I was mentoring or when I was managing and leading the division, is that people were overcomplicating it all the time. And really, you've just got to have a real checklist every day, every single day before you go is like, what do you want to achieve from that day? So it could be follow-ups, first markets, calls, leads to chase. Whatever it is, but having a real understanding about what do I need to get my business to, to what does my business need tomorrow. So, you know, if you're focused on 180, how many more candidates do I need to get at interview stage to put myself in a position to hit my target this month? And if you're more business development focus is, how many more vacancies or how many new customers do I need to develop and bring in so that I can hit my target on that side? So that's the two fundamentals, right? And what sits underneath that is, all of the stuff that we've already spoke about, whether it's, you know, how do you build a business? Well, you know, that's— or how do you build— how do you get candidates? You know, it's building relationships and speaking to them. So keeping it simple. So I know, and like I said, it's so important because I've worked with some really, really intelligent people, so, so intelligent people, and the amount of times I've gone into a meeting and then said, like, where is your day plan? Like, where is 'What do you want to achieve today?' and 'What does your business need?' and they can't answer it because they're just, it's just so on top of them and once you take it back and you simplify what it is your business needs or what it is, whatever, you know, business requirements from that side, then you can make a checklist and then you can really have a tangible conversation with your manager and say, 'Listen, my business ain't need this.' Any good manager will challenge you and hopefully point you in a direction, but also you both agree that that is the right way to go. But also, more importantly, is that I was coming up with the answers. I wasn't going to my manager and going, I've got this problem, I don't know what to do. It's like going away and thinking about it. So simplifying it and the strict process in regards to what you're focusing on for your day, and the only time you should move away from that day panel process is that you've got a client or an interview that's fallen through and you need to get back to focusing on supplying that candidate or supplying that vacancy at that time. But yeah, I know it sounds easier said than done, don't get me wrong, because everyone knows that, but it's just simplifying everything that you do and just having a good checklist of what you want to achieve and what your business needs.

Amazing. And look, I'm asking this because people want to know, Yeah, sure. Like what, so at the height of when you were doing really well, like I'm sure you know it because it's rinse and repeat, but like what, just talk me through like a typical day plan for Dan, like, because people want to know it.

First thing in the morning would be going through any responses from adverts or LinkedIn responses that I would have sent out the night before in regards to focusing for the jobs that I've got live. Next one would be then business development calls, like straight, straight into it with an available time.

Wait, let's just, let's add times. Sorry, let's just add times.

Yeah.

Just, it would just make it really clear because people love this, mate. People want to know. So what time? So start responses. What time do you get in and then what time do you dedicate to responses?

Yeah, about 8 o'clock in the morning, between quarter to 8 and 8 o'clock in the morning. Straight away looking through. To be honest, I used to do a lot of that on my phone. So when I was travelling in, my travel journey was about 40 minutes, I'd be, looking at responses, making notes, sending emails to myself for reminders and calendar invites for myself to focus on when I get in. Then I walk through the door, breakfast, and then straight into it. I would have a list of clients or prospects that I want to speak to. Once I've gone through, like I said, the initial candidates, etc., I would then be on the phone at quarter to, half 8, quarter to 9 at the very latest, speaking to clients and pitching in leads, reverse markets, whatever leads I've got to follow up from. That would normally take me, well, it would take me as long as I needed. If I needed business, I'd do it all day. That would be it. I'd be doing it all day. And that wouldn't be just calling clients, that would be calling candidates, asking, well, what they up to, clients that I've got relationships, new candidates that I'm focusing on because I needed vacancies. The best way to do that is to reach out to people and understand that. If I had vacancies in the afternoon that I'd work on, I'd then from 2:00 to 5:00 be focusing on supplying those vacancies, like, you know, and then getting leads, market intel, anything that I need for the morning or the evening, whatever it is, having that ready to go. And then at 5:00, any administration, reverse markets go out the door, day plan, and that's it, and then go again. And then, of course, the next day I might have 4 urgent vacancies. Business development would be less. I'd only do sort of an hour or 2 hours just to follow up my leads to keep it ticking over and then focus on supporting candidates. But every single day was business development, whether I was talking to candidates or clients, and I think that's where some people get it wrong is that, you know, whether you're 180 or whether you're 360, it's so important that you're still retaining information from people and you're either giving that to the relevant people in your business that are more focused on sales, or you make a note and you action it later on down the line, whether that's later in the day or the following day. But so, so important. Doesn't matter what level you are, whether you're 1 day in or 10 years in, you should be business developing every single day of the week, whatever level you are.

Yeah, no, it's great. I think you, yeah, it's, I've had a guy on here called Nick Carmen before and he did, the way he coins it is like, yeah, always be open for business instead of like putting the sort of blinders on between 10 and 12, you're just doing business development. And then when you're doing 2 till 5 candidates, like you've got again the blinders on and you're just focusing on their reasons for leaving rather than asking about the projects they have on and like stuff like that, right? So I love that. So Just really, thanks for sharing that, because that's what people want to find out. So I guess what, before we move on to the sort of non-billing journey that you went on, really quickly, because this just helps with like how you went on your journey. So what ended up being your best year billings-wise as a contract recruiter?

Billings year was about, it was just under 800. Um, so it's about—

was your best year?

Yeah, best year, it's about 765, something like that. I think that was 2015. Um, so the year, year before I went non-billing.

And then, and then just— and then this ties into the question, but— and then I don't know, the sort of years leading up to that, what did the sort of performance look like?

Um, so over that period, so the first— so like I said, June to, um, December was my first half, I suppose. Like 3 months of that I'd done, I think it was like like 3 or 4 deals in that period. Most of those were December, so that was like, of course, 2011, but that gave me that confidence and that momentum coming into 2012. First year was about £275,000. That was from a fairly standing start. Clients that I worked in December actually didn't have much repeat business, so that was sort of new projects. And then second year was Funny enough, me and Ryan Adams at the time were going toe to toe too. He'll remember that story as well. I think it was January, February, I was talking to a client that was at the time going to be a big project that needed a number of people. And I had a good candidate base and I supplied a number of candidates. And in February, I think I've done £104K, which was like— I've sort of set it out pretty early on, which I'm really proud of from that side. That was sort of breaking records in regards to what the business knew and I suppose putting that bar to the next level, you know, from that side, but still staying very grounded. You know, I wanted to be top biller. That's what I looked at from day one. I know Ryan was keen to get that top biller status as well. So, and I'll say it on the record, he pipped me on the last day by about 3K, but we went toe to toe literally right to the end. So that was good. And then that set me up. And then the year after was about £695,000. So actually, I had my best year was 2012 to 2013. I added about £300K to my business. And then 2014, I'd done £690,000, which was about another £125,000, £130,000 from the year before. And then, like I said, in 2015 was mid-$700,000. So So yeah, so it was a really good natural progression forward. But yeah, no, it was good fun. Good fun.

No, thanks for sharing that. And the reason why I ask isn't to try and sort of get you to show off your numbers, but the most popular question I get is like, if you— and I'm sure you've had this with your guys now, I mean, talk about the non-billing piece, but like recruiters want to know how to take it up a notch, right? 'Cause a lot of recruiters may look at the end of the year, it's like, wow, I've had a good year. Last year I did 150K, just did 200K. But a lot of people may think, right, how the hell am I gonna squeeze, like how am I gonna get more out of what I currently have? Do you get what I mean? So I guess just the final thing on this is like looking back at that and you can sort of reference maybe things that you see with people that you've helped and stuff like that. But most common thing people don't know is like, What do you think were the sort of main 1 to 2 things that you did differently? Maybe you didn't do anything differently, but like, what were the sort of core things that you really doubled down on that you really felt meant that you was able to continue increasing your performance and, yeah, grow that to nearly 800K, 100K billings? Like, what did you really double down on that you really felt enabled you to achieve that?

I think the first thing is I didn't overcomplicate it. You know, I really, from that side, I knew what I wanted to do. I set a goal out at the start of the year and I had to hit it. There was no other way because of where I want to be in my life and what I want to achieve. There wasn't room for, well, you know, I've had a good year. That's just not in my makeup, in my DNA to be on that side. And that's just me as a person. You know, I'm either all in or all out, you know, and if I'm all in, I'm going to put it at the start of the year that listen, I need to hit that goal. So whether or not I had 50% to do that in 3 months or 10% over that, I had to hit that goal. Anything over that was an achievement in my eyes. Anything— if I hit that, that was where I needed to be. That wasn't an achievement in my eyes. You know, I'd hit what I needed to hit, but overachieving that, that was when then I thought, you know what, yeah, it was a good year. You know, I'll take that on porto. Having high expectations of yourself Not looking at anyone else, you know, of course, you've got great peers around me that we would work together on different elements to it, but compete with yourself. That's the key thing. Look at yourself and think, right, what can I do? Can I push myself? Can I get better at converting leads? Can I get better at my ratio in regards to interviews? Whatever it is. And if you just look at yourself, you don't overcomplicate it, 'cause you're not really, you know, great, you know, someone's done a 40K, that's going to drive you on. But you're competing with yourself on that side in your own way. Of course, recruitment, athlete tables and stuff like that, but, you know, naturally when you see people get to the top, they can drop off. I've seen it. People will drop off because they've got no one to compete to. But if you're competing against yourself, then, you know, you can just keep progressing. I know it sounds simple, but it's like literally just pushing yourself all the time. And relating back to your goals. Like one of the best bidders recently, who's still at Consul now, he has his goals, he writes his goals out every single day. Every single day without doubt, he has his goals set out, what he wants to achieve. He's not really focused on what other people are doing. I think that's such an important trait in any sales environment, not just recruiting, anything, not just sales, in life. You know, focus on what you can do. You know, and achieve where you can focus on and control.

Okay, final thing. Again, people don't know the answer to this. I think a lot of people want to know this sort of secret sauce, but yeah, or like the sort of golden bullet, but obviously it doesn't exist. It's multiple things, but like people want to know. You spoke about keeping it simple and these things. So what do you think is the most important action or KPI that contributes to a recruiter's success?

Oh, deals, right? You know, like, it's, it's, it's this, you know, again, keeping it simple. Like, if, you know, you as a sales individual, like sales, I'm talking collectively, you know, any, any elements within a sales environment, you are, you know, your commission is based on sales, progression is, is 80 to 90% based on sales, in a sales environment. So I suppose the first one, again, you can look at interviews, but how many deals have I done? How many deals have you done? You know, that's the first thing is that naturally, of course, from an agency point of view, is that you can judge your success from that side. And I don't know if that's the answer you wanted to, but again, it's simple. It's, you know, it deals from that side.

[Speaker] I think it's the bit before that, right? So I guess it's the bit where you're talking about keeping it simple. So I guess people want to know, like, going into a brand new month, it's like, right, if I know, if I get, I don't know, if I know if I have X meaningful conversations with potential clients, I should hit my number. Or yeah, I don't know, if I, if I get X number of, in like, X number of interviews, first stage interviews, I know I'm confident. It's just people want to know like where to really double down on the action.

Yeah, I think the, the taking one step back, of course, is you know, any successful individual within a recruiting space will know their numbers, like what are their sweet spots. And if you don't know their sweet spots, then that's really important that you talk to your manager or your director and you carve that out together and you really understand what is—

What are your sweet numbers?

It changes, right? Because you're hoping that they decrease over a while because you get more effective, right? Because your clients get more effective. But, you know, when I started, for example, I was averaging, um, and my way of doing it, I wasn't very good on, uh, with emails and reverse marketing. I enjoyed phone interactions, or like, hey, so I was doing anything between 3 and 4 and a half hours a day on the phone, you know, like naturally that's where I needed to be. Some of them were pointless conversations. They probably could say I could definitely be more focused on, on, um, on that area, but to me, that's what worked. You know, that for me, that's what got me to where I needed to be. But, you know, for example, naturally, 5 vacancies a week, 15 to 16 submissions a week, and 8 interviews. If I got that, I would be on to 4 or 5 contract deals a month, you know, and people would say— and this was going back to sort of 2012, I'm having 13, you know, maybe I could reduce that. But that's where you would look at it with your manager and they were really big on that consult is what can you tweak, what can you do. So those are the types of ratios, you know, 2:1 ratio in anything you're trying to do.

Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. So let's, conscious of time, but let's get into the sort of towards the tail end because I think this is what also, I know we've focused a lot on recruiting, but a lot of recruiters listen to this and I think what you shared is really interesting for people. So I guess, like, why didn't— would you mind just sort of sharing? I guess, look, what we wanted to go over when we spoke about this was like, one, how you, how you felt like you got the opportunity presented to you to get sort of equity shares in a recruitment business.

Yeah.

Um, so let's talk a bit about this before we finish, because I think most aspirational recruitment recruiters that listen to this will even maybe one day think about potentially starting their own recruitment business, or typically it's they want to be a director in company they work for and maybe sort of get the opportunity to own part of that company, or etc. So let's just start there. So one, like, why don't we talk about why do you think Dan Cox was able to get the opportunity to get offered equity shares in this recruitment business rather than your peers? Because as you said, super competitive landscape, there's great people in there. Why was you able to do that firstly?

Um, should I get— I'll get Graham and Mark on the phone, see if they can answer that. No, I think they were very good in regards to where, like, looking after top performers and trying to, I suppose, lock them in, you know, towards the company vision and the company goal. That wasn't without saying that I asked the question, you know, again, like I mentioned earlier on about when I'd done my first deal, I sort of knocked on the door one day and I said, what opportunities are within the business? But again, I'd never worked in a company, you know, a recruitment company before. So, you know, naively going into there and saying, what is the opportunity to be part of this journey more longer term, you know, and that side. So they went away and talked about a few things. So a lot of it was down to—

When did you do that?

Probably around 2015, 2015 time. I picked my time right because I was still in good numbers. You know, I think that you'd have a tougher conversation if you weren't performing and you went in and asked for shares for your company. So you have to get the timing right. But yeah, around that time, and for me, I wanted to be more part of the business and the opportunity. I really, I love that business still today. And for me, I wanted to be part of it, you know, and however that looked, whatever that looked, that was down to the owners at the time to keep that focus. And also probably on their side, they were aware of, I suppose, how, you know, where I want to be in my life at some point, you know, what I want to achieve in the recruiting industry, you know, and then that's really important that, you know, they maybe saw that. So, you know, from that time, timing was key, asking the question again, that you've got to be speaking to your managers. Apologies to any managers that might be getting bombarded by recruiters next week, but I think it's really important that, you know, as a business, you want to understand what opportunities are on the table, you know, to be part of that growth model from that side. So yeah, so that's really important.

Yeah, no, I'm glad you, like, honestly, this keeps coming up time and time again. Like, if you're listening to this and you have leverage, right, and not, you don't have, like, you're someone that, you think can add a lot of value to the business you work for long term, you really enjoy working there, you're bought into what it's about. Like, ask the question, like, literally, like, why? Yeah. So the worst case scenario is no, not at this time or whatever, but at least you're making them, you're making people aware that's what you want, right? So when your sort of managers or business owners start thinking about, right, how can we grow this business? How can we keep our best people? 'Oh, you know what, Dan actually reached out to me 3 months ago and said, look, if there's an opportunity to own part of this company, be part of it longer term, like, count me in, or at least consider me.' So like, if you listen to this and you haven't asked the question, like, the worst case scenario is not a bad thing. So I'm glad you said that. But I guess the next thing I wanted to ask you, Dan, was— because I think sometimes recruiters, when I've spoken to them, they can be a bit sort of blindsided by this, or just don't have complete clarity on what it actually means, right? So when we say you end up getting offered equity shares, like, could you just share sort of with people listening, like, one, what does it actually mean? And two, like, what sort of tip— I know it may be specific to your circumstances and what happened, but like, typically you can talk about your experience, but like, what, what did that mean? And what sort of things had to sort of happen for you to really reap the rewards of actually having equity shares in the business? I think not many people are completely clear on this.

Yeah, absolutely. So equity is actually having registered, I suppose, shares with the organisation. So, you know, you're part of the dividends payments on the profits for the organisation from that side. And I think really important, when I was first offered those, it was a really proud moment for me because it felt like I was actually part of the vision and the business and I think that's so key in regards to natural progression, you know, it gave it another, another focus point, you know, I'm actually a shareholder of this multi-million pound organisation, I need to be making sure that I am focusing on bringing the next level of staff through and I suppose positioning myself that it can be achieved, like, you know, I'm nothing special from anyone else, you know, like I mentioned earlier, are asking the question from that side. So equity shares are a little bit tougher to get hold of, of course, because there's various constraints that you need to be aware. There's EMI schemes as well, and the companies— and a lot of good companies now are offering that out. And I think the way that you position it and you talk to, you know, your managers or directors and saying, I'm really bought into the vision, you know, which you are because you're sitting there and you're working and you're succeeding, but I want to understand the future growth of this business and understand if I can be part of it. And it sounds like it could be a negative conversation sometimes, but the amount of, like, the positive response, and I can only talk on my behalf, but the positive response I got from it was like, I love it, love it that you want to be part of our business, you know, and you're not thinking about anything else. And they were open arms about it. And said, yeah, let's try and make this work, we'll come back to you. And that was it. So, you know, it was all around time on that side, but there are various ways that you can be part of the business, of course. And it does feel special. It is nice when you're part of the business and, you know, if you have a good positive year and profits are higher, of course, like any shareholder, you buy shares tomorrow in any company, you get, you reap the rewards of the dividends and etc. But you just, more importantly, I felt part of of the story, you know, and that was really important to me at that time, that where I wanted to be.

Yeah, cool. To get that, completing that, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. So I guess, so you've spoken about, yeah, being able to, as an employee, you wouldn't get obviously access to the profits of the overall business, right, from dividends, etc., but sort of to really benefit from the equity piece and having equity shares, like, just, just really simply, what, what was best case scenario? So you guys ended up getting, um, acquired, but like, just for people listening so they can have a bit of an understanding of, right, so if I'm able to, yeah, try and potentially have, um, yeah, become a shareholder or get on some sort of scheme, what, what, what's— if you could just explain, like, just from your experience and what you went through.

Yeah.

What was the best case scenario? What events had to happen for you to really benefit from becoming a shareholder?

Yeah, I think, I think it's a really good question. Um, shares are in, in a business, for example, outside of dividends and stuff like that and profitability, you know, shares are only really valuable if the company has a real focus and vision on, um, being acquired one day, you know, because you could be a shareholder but they're pretty outside of being part of the business and the vision, they're pretty pointless if the company's not really got the management or the directors that own that place haven't got a focus on selling, you know, at some point acquiring and stuff like that. So again, you need to speak to, you know, either the owners or your manager and understand what is the vision plan, you know, like from that business so that you can support that focus. I suppose that's the key bit, is that, you know, really understanding what the vision is for the business. And then once you are acquired, what does that mean? You know, because of course acquiring a business normally means that they want to take that business to the next level. It doesn't mean, are they just going to cash out and leave? It's like, what do they want to do next? They want to expand into 6 more countries globally. They want to build out the US market, whether that's contract or permanent. They want to become a global staffing provider, you know, from that side. And sometimes the directors don't have experience in doing that, you know, and that's why they need to go to that, you know, that next level up and say, listen, for part of my business, can you help us get to the next level? So yeah, that's a big driver, of course, with equity, that, you know, if the company does go through a purchase, then, you know, however small they are, then, you know, those shares will be realised at some point.

Yeah, no, good. Thanks for going through that, because I think sometimes people can sort of get confused by that. And I think the other point to make, which is again quite popular and common, and we've had a couple of people go through this on the podcast, is then the sort of management buyout route, right? Where again, it's actually then the way that the original founders or owners of the company get out is by actually selling the company to over to people that have been there for a long time, etc., right? So I think that what sort of Dan is sharing here with you all is that it's about asking the questions, about communicating, it's about understanding where the business is going. And if you ask those questions and they're willing to have those conversations, then yeah, you can really actually understand what, yeah, things could actually mean and what the positive outcomes could be. And yeah, so thank you. So before I ask you sort of 5 final questions, I just want to ask you one thing. So What advice would you give yourself to Dan Cox just entering the recruitment industry? So I just want to know, from what you've been through, right, if you could communicate and have a conversation with Dan Cox who first day in recruitment after a couple of days graduating uni, what would you say to yourself?

Don't sweat the small things. I think that they're massive. Like, I used to let the smallest of things in my day affect me for, you know, a couple of hours, you know, and I think that's massive. You know, at some point, you've just got to soak it up, push on, don't let it affect you, you know, that you can't, most of the time, you can't change a certain outcome if that's where it is. But you can, you can change the end result, and I think that's really important to understand, you know. Yet, a candidate, for example, might have dropped out or might have, you know, offer rejected, you still got that vacancy or you still got that client and go and find someone that is focused on that. So yeah, definitely that one for sure. Don't switch work. It's a good question because I'd tell myself to run as well. No, I'm joking. I wouldn't. No, I'm joking. I love the industry. I wouldn't be doing anything else. I think really, really get to know your market. Really know where your market's going so that you can have earlier tangible conversations because probably for the first 3, 4 months I was going in a little bit blindsided in regards to speaking to some great people and but they probably thought that and I did sound probably fairly junior. So just a little bit of research, you know, understanding your market a little bit more. So they're probably the two key things.

Nice. So last, last questions for you. So first one, if you could change the industry, what would you improve?

Yeah. I think the key one is be proud of being a recruiter. Yeah, I used to do it as well, is that I'd be around certain individuals that had, you know, amazing sounding jobs, you know, like stockbrokers or insurance brokers, and I'd say, what do you do? Recruitment. And I think at times I used to be a little bit embarrassed about that, and I don't know why, because if you actually look at the industry and what it supports and what it means is all the good parts. Of course, I know there are some bad parts of the industry from that side, but I think definitely people be proud of working in the industry because I think it adds so much value not just to the economy, to companies, to businesses, um, from that side. So yeah, definitely don't do what I've done and be, you know, I'm not, I suppose it's just a little bit embarrassed when I was earlier on because the job sounded a little bit, a bit better, whatever, a bit more interesting. But actually, you think about what you do as a recruiter day in, day out, um, it's pretty cool.

Yeah, next one. What What book have you read that has had the biggest impact on you? If you don't read, could be a podcast.

You know what, that was kind of my goals the last probably 2 or 3 years, like really, um, focusing on reading books like Rich Dad Poor Dad by far in regards— you probably hear that a lot, right? But that really impacted, um, and probably a bit cliché as well, really impacted my relationship with, with money, um, and focusing on assets that can provide cash flow to support the future. Because of course, I know what I can do with recruitment, but no one can control, for example, the economy and where that's going to be. But if you've got cash flowing assets from that side and using your money, then hopefully later on in life you know, that you should be fairly set up on that side. So yeah, that was a massive, massive influence into where I focus my time and outside of recruiting as well.

Nice. Bit of a different one, this one. What did you spend your first biggest commission paycheck on?

For me, myself? Yeah, because I think my wife probably got the first big, big—

There's always normally sort of, not always, but sometimes there's a typical sort of memorable thing that you ended up buying.

Probably, yeah, probably my Range Rover. So like, I went out and got it probably about 2 years into the business. I'd always dream of having it. It's my dream car. I love that Range Rover Sports. It's just, ever since, even though I was at uni, I used to say to my uni friends in French, I'm going to drive one of them. I said, you know, I'm going to drive one of them. And they used to laugh and say, listen, you're massively overdrawn, you've got loads of debt, what are you going on about Range Rovers? Yeah, that was an amazing feeling, being, you know, getting into that car for the first time. And I'd achieved that, you know, no one else, I'd achieved that. And yeah, it was great, amazing. Even though it was a depreciation asset, it was just, you know, one of the things that I'd always wanted early on, you know.

Yeah, no, I love that. Last question, and look, this, this, this may be something that you're sort of, sort of working through now and stuff, but just still interested, I guess. What's the sort of— I typically ask, what's the ultimate goal for your recruitment career? Or you can sort of answer just your career now. What comes up for you? What's the ultimate goal for your career?

Giving back 100%. Um, I want to be able to be in a position at some point in my career where I can give advice, offload experiences, what I've done well, what I've not done so well from, and having that platform to be able to give back to the industry in whatever shape or form that is, it's definitely giving back.

Nice, love that, Dan. I'm sure there's loads more that we could go into, but I thought that was brilliant. I think you've been on a great, great journey and really excited for people to to listen to this. So thanks a lot for coming on the show.

No, no worries. Thank you. Anytime. Been a pleasure.