Daniel Wilsher - “I’m struggling” - How two words can change your life and your mental health

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Daniel Wilshire. This is a slightly different conversation but an important one. I met Dan at the beginning of this year at a networking event, and the conversations that we have in this episode are very focused on mental health suicide, and much more. So I wanted to firstly say, for those of you that that may trigger or be a really difficult, uh, conversation to listen to, then I definitely want to sort of give you the, the heads up on that on this conversation, uh, but what we really tried to do is ultimately enable all of you to walk away with practical tips, insights, coping mechanisms, habits that can help all of you just manage those really difficult days that come with, uh, life, and particularly working in recruitment. Dan's story is a really difficult one, so enjoy the episode. Dan, welcome to the podcast.

Pleasure to be here, mate. Pleasure to be here. Luckily no strange train strikes today, so an easy journey, mate. Stress-free.

No, yeah, thanks for, um, making the trip. Obviously we met on the off chance, um, I was looking today, we met in, in March this year at the Powerhive event. And yeah, that's gone quick enough. So yeah, like as I was just saying to you, it's, it's been really— obviously we then connected on LinkedIn and we had some good chat on, on that, um, at that event. And it's been, yeah, really great sort of following your journey, really seeing that you're doing more and more work with recruitment companies. Um, I've, I've seen obviously the, the content that you share. And I think when we prepared for this, I think what, what's, uh, different or unique about you is, uh, just how relatable I think you are sometimes. I think when you can go into, um, sort of mental health context with certain people, it can sometimes be hard to connect, uh, with, with people. And I know that's something that you've had good feedback on. So I'm really sort of excited to, um, go into your journey. And why you've, uh, ended up going on this mission, uh, that you're on. Uh, so I guess we were just saying, right, I think the perfect place to start is definitely just to give people listening a bit of color of, of your story. Um, and I've tried to do as much prep as possible, so why don't I just kick it off, uh, and then you can sort of fill in the blanks. Uh, and then what we're gonna do is then we're gonna sort of start talking about Yeah, through all of that, what you've learned, how people listen to this can hopefully get better at speaking up about their mental hardship, hopefully equip people listening to this, um, so they can spot signs that could potentially become, um, big things later on, hopefully equip things that managers can use that they can support in their team, help managers be more approachable. Just, we're going to end up getting hopefully into really practical, useful things that people can use day to day, particularly in a recruitment context. But this is sort of what I found out about you, Danny, basically. So the, the, the key part that, um, whenever you go on your website and some of the content that I've seen, obviously a huge, um, moment and a part of your story was obviously losing your dad to suicide. But from what I sort of found out, obviously I guess a lot of people would assume that the story starts there, but from what, from what you shared, obviously you grew up in Rochdale And for you, you felt like the story actually started when you was more 5 years old, where you lost two of your grandparents, your parents divorced, and this is before obviously, unfortunately, lost your father. So I guess, why don't we just start there? Because if that's where you feel like the story starts, I guess let's paint some color there of Danny 5 years old getting up to 9 years old, and then we can then segue into you getting a bit older and the hardship that you found yourself going through.

Amazing, amazing. And you have done your research, so thank you, appreciate it. I think that, that for me, and again, that story does— as much as the suicide was a huge catalyst and was kind of that pivotal moment of change that really did turn my world upside down, there also— the reason I talk about some of those, uh, some of that loss earlier on is because of the way that it kind of made me think and feel. I know from a young age, so losing the two grandparents again, parents divorced at 5 years old. So I remember my dad sitting down and telling me, like, Dan, I wouldn't be living with you anymore, I'm not going to be in the house. And as much as you don't kind of comprehend what's going on, it is a form of loss. And then just in the year after, I lost a third grandparent as well. So I had to think from a really, really early age about questions about life, like, where have they gone? Um, what is life? What is death? Those kind of moments spurred and started to grow my emotional intelligence from a young age, basically. And I— well, like any family, we kind of made, made that stuff work anyway. When my dad had left, I was kind of 5 years old, and my mum was kind of a workaholic. So she was a teacher, so she genuinely— like, you know, like people refer to the mums as Superwoman. My mum is like— I don't know how she— she still does it today. She still works 12, 13-hour days working in education. But to, to look after us as a single parent. And because we were staying at my mum's most of the time, um, to kind of getting us up, getting us ready for school in the morning, taking us to the preschool club, to her working all day for us, picking us up from after-school club and bringing us home, sorting us all out, financially supporting us. She kind of went into, after the divorce, chasing her career basically, and, and really going into that drive mode. And I think my dad kind of went further into chaos. He's relationship was unstable at the time, and, and more of the drinking and the alcoholism and, and those sorts of things. And they went on two very separate journeys, but obviously you're not really conscious of this as a 9-year-old. So then at 9 years old, when, uh, well, as a youngster, sorry, and at 9 years old then when he actually took his life, that just came out of nowhere. It was like such a shock, and I just didn't understand what had gone on. I had no idea where he'd gone. I couldn't comprehend it. I didn't, I I just didn't believe for a lot of the time. And that to process as a 9-year-old was, was huge. It was like genuinely, it's no burden so some, any kids should have to take really. But in the weeks before, so the reason why it got a bit more complex for me, I mean, the week before he'd actually called to speak to everyone in the family and I was fuming with him at the time. So I tried to put a healthy boundary in place and my way of doing that was to not answer the phone. So he spoke to everyone and when the phone was passed to me, I'm like, I'm trying to show you I'm angry, so I'm going to give it back. Now, there's a lot of guilt that comes along with any suicide. The idea that, did I tell them I loved them enough? Did I clean the house enough? Was I the son that I should have been? All those questions do come to mind regardless of, um, other context around, around the event. But me not answering that phone made that 10 times worse, mate, because I'm just sat there thinking My God, imagine if I'd have just spoke to him. So when a week later I found out he's no longer here, I had a really complex belief system that was formed. I believed that it was my fault, so I needed to make it up to my family. I believed that my emotions were too heavy for people. So again, kind of, that was the first time I'd shown anger where it was a healthy response, and I ended up losing someone from that. So I'm thinking as a 9-year-old, okay, my emotions are too, too much for people, let's internalize them. I'm one of the family now as well. I had 3 sisters, so I'm thinking again, I've got to step into my dad's shoes. So there's like this melting pot of belief systems and external pressures, even from that age, which then made talking about emotions very difficult. Went through high school kind of chasing the idea of wealth because that was where my safety was rooted in, basically. So if I had all the money in the world, I wouldn't do what my dad had done, and I could look after my family. That was the, the thought process behind it. And it worked in high school, kind of was head boy, straight-A student, 6 A*s, 5 A*s, 2 B's. On the outside looked amazing. Um, but it had been 7 years since the suicide and I hadn't said a word. So that emotional weight was building and building, and I kind of dropped from that head boy to taking cocaine, MDMA, ketamine within 6 months of leaving school. Attendance dropped in college. Uh, it was what seemed like a complete U-turn, but something that had actually been building and growing over time. Yeah. So, uh, Flash forward, then kind of went into university. Thankfully managed to complete my BTEC, dropped out of university after 3 years because I've been struggling with depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation from, from the age of around 17 to 18. Set up a small contracting company. So again, after university, I was like still chasing the idea of money and success, believing that that would fix all my issues. Set up a contracting company that went wrong after like 7 months. Entered into the world of high-end recruitment. So Global Executive Search, and kind of was amazing, loved the environment. And again, that nurtured that idea for wealth and success. So started really, really hammering down on, on how many hours I was working, on chasing the, the financial side of, of the job. And that worked for a period of time, but it was a complete disregard of my well-being. So I stopped doing everything that was supporting me, so writing music going to the gym, cut my family off, wasn't seeing my friends that often. And when I did see people, it was when I was being reckless on a night out because of the pressure that I was trying to deal with, both from the job and then also the internal weight that I was still carrying from, from the life events. And, uh, after kind of 7 months, my performance just went off the edge of a cliff and it didn't come back up. I ended up going through a year's worth, almost a year's worth of therapy and medication whilst I was doing recruitment.

While she was doing recruitment?

Yeah, sort of. That consisted of kind of running on my Friday lunches to the therapy appointment to relive all the, the difficulties and the trauma and to, to talk about these things I was running away from for so long, to then run back to the office and compose myself so nobody knew, which in itself was a challenge. And yeah, it got to the point where I had to leave the industry because I, I was just like, I can't physically cope with the healthy pressures of the role whilst I have all this stuff, and I needed that time to heal. So then left recruitment, and a year after that, I started my journey as the UK's youngest full-time mental health public speaker. It's been a year and 6 months of that, and there's been over 9,000 professionals and students across the UK that have now accessed the services, from public speaking to staff training to workshops to mentorship. So it has been some journey, but you're all caught up, and now we're here today.

Yeah, there we go. So what— just so— there's so much there.

So yeah, yeah.

With the— no, thank you so much for sharing that. That's all right, people. I know, I guess like for you now, um, I don't know, you've probably told that story a lot now, right? So a couple of times. Yeah. So, so just so I understand the timeline, so when did the— yeah, so when did you leave recruitment?

So I left recruitment at 22 years old.

22 years old. So when, when was that? Was that before COVID Was that during COVID Pre-COVID, yep.

So I, uh, it was just before we went into—

okay, so you left, so he's in recruitment, going on to, um, COVID, left, then as you said needed time. And then what, so when did you then start on this mission of your business Damaged Goods? When did that all start?

Yeah, so I, after recruitment, I was in kind of a 9-to-5 sales role, um, so it was for an IT training company. And again, I'd just gone into lockdown and I wasn't eligible for furlough, so they kept me on.

Wow.

Um, So I was new in this company, obviously all offices were shut down, no one was in working from home, working from the offices, and my KPIs, mate, were on call times and emails sent, and I have no clients. So I'm in this new sales role, everyone else is on furlough, there's me and a couple of managers in who are still working, and I'm just calling around offices, mate, day to day, just to hit numbers and try and make something of the role. And it was really challenging. And that was like a moment for me where I was like, okay, I could potentially lose this, and if I do, what am I going to do? And then it kind of spurred the question of, okay, well, if that was to happen, what would I do for the rest of my life? For— I just asked myself the question, like, what would I do for 25 grand for the rest of my life if that salary didn't change? Like, what would I do and still wake up every single day and be over the moon to do? And it was like working with the kids. Around mental health, because there's no way I could have come out therapy and have been, been in this new mental space and not give that back. It felt like an obligation to me, to me after the therapy and after, after healing and seeing the progress from the work that I'd done internally and seeing the progress from the power of conversation, like all of those things. I was like, there's no chance I'm coming from there and being in this place and, and not sharing what I know. And, and then I was like, right, okay, well how can I— if I'm going to be a public speaker and if I'm going to speak to kids, how can I, how can I make that really impactful when it happens? So I started writing a book. And bearing in mind, this was at the early days. I was in that company for a year, so this was really early on. And Damaged Goods wasn't set up to a year afterwards, but I started writing this book. And that kind of level of introspection was, was amazing for me because it helped me really piece together my story from a timeline perspective, from a, uh, point of view of what I'd actually experienced and my emotions and, and the feeling throughout all of those pivotal moments. And it helped me really conceptualized my own journey. And then I kind of stopped writing the book because I realized writing a book was quite tough. Um, I was going to pick it back up at one point, and I started to put a bit more energy into, to just putting some feelers out there in, in the market of education. So I sent a few emails out to some schools and, and, and got some really good response back. And I knew there was a market for it because of what they were telling me, and obviously the state of, of mental health within the education system specifically. So I was like, right, there's definitely a demand. I have this huge passion. I know I'm great at speaking. I've been on stages before. I used to perform when I was young. I know that I love to design and I love that creative aspect of any role, and it's something that I often found was limiting in some of my positions. So I loved creativity and I love designing things. I used to write a lot of music when I was young, so I knew I'd be great at that side. So I was like, public speaking, that's like everything that brings together my strengths. I have the sales side in there, and I've got that meaning and that purpose. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do this. So then I basically designed— I got a company in London to, to make 100 luxury envelopes with the Damaged Goods logo on the front after I'd come up with a business name. So the logo was in silver foil, and then I got these custom wax stamps made with the Damaged Goods logo on, and I wrote 100 letters or with kind of my journey, very open and honest, like, like I've just been on the podcast, and noted all that in there and then put what I'm trying to achieve and the learning outcomes that would be for kids and sent these letters off, mate, to 100 schools. And yeah, the response rate was amazing. And from that, I then started my journey into speaking in schools and launched the business, and, and it just kind of went from there, mate.

And I love that.

Yeah, it was really cool.

2021 then, I'm assuming, around then?

Yeah, around then. Yeah, 2021.

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

So let—

I just want to go back for a sec if that's okay.

You can.

As I said, thank you so much for sharing that. And I think I, I get— this is just personal curiosity— whenever I hear stories like this, um, like, I think there was definitely like one— there was a similar story, uh, when I was growing up from school. I, I would guess people listening I don't know, you probably find it hard, unfortunately, not to have at least one of these stories in, in your school, do you know what I mean? Where, yeah, someone at school, um, had lost one of their, their parents. Um, I just feel like, have you— obviously I know you mentioned there about the guilt, and I'm not surprised to hear that, especially if I'm sure there's lots of questions like, what if I could have spoke to him? I didn't know that was going to be the last time I was going to speak to him, all these types of things. But have you, have you like proper— have you ever found yourself just pondering like why, why, why he took his own life? Because that must be a really— I'd, I'd be— yeah, I can't even comprehend what that would feel like, but I would just— I feel like that could potentially eat me up, just like why.

100%. And the tough thing about that is the— it's like the pursuit of the answers to those questions is so important to you at that time, even though you know you will never get the answers, but the pursuit feels so necessary. So you're like, I've got these questions and I know that I'm never ever going to get an answer, but I'm going to spend 13 years trying to understand why. And, and, and that was like what it was like for me. And, and it was tough because I had to physically put myself in the shoes of my dad to try and get the answers that I knew you couldn't give me. That was tough, mate, because I'm sat there thinking, okay, is it because of this? Maybe this went on in his life, and maybe it was— this was going on in work, and I don't know, did I miss something? And whatever, that, that for me was tough. That is a journey that, again, it's— there are no words for how difficult that is, because like you said, it does eat you up because you're never going to get those answers. And it's about coming to peace with those. And there is— there has been a moment, and again through the therapy, where I was, I was just at peace knowing that I didn't, I didn't need them, you know what I mean? I didn't need them. I had the event. I knew that things weren't good. I knew that he wasn't doing great, and the event gave me everything that I needed to know around where he was at, and I didn't need the specifics. I knew that that was enough, and, and coming to peace with that was, was, was tough. Um, it was tough, but it also, like, thank God I've been able to do so because I don't think, yeah, that, that can go on for too long. Really.

And then I guess the other thing I just want to go back to, because I think this might help people, is again, when I was sort of preparing for this, from what I heard and listened to and watched about your story, like you said, to mention the word 13 years there, and like from what, from what I gathered, it took you a long time to ask for help, or at least accept help, um, or maybe ask for it. I think one of the things that you said was you were leaving breadcrumbs through chaos to get people to, um, hopefully say, Danny, you're right, you need any help or whatever, right?

Yes.

So I think what might be helpful here is obviously you mentioned where, yeah, you, you, uh, everything outside looked great, um, and then, yeah, it quickly spiraled down. Then you went into uni and then you had to deal with, um, really difficult periods of depression. And yeah, obviously managing your own mental health and it's really challenging. So Could you paint— could you paint a bit of a picture around that? Like, what does that actually look like? So I'm sorry to bring you back. I guess you have to do quite a bit of this.

Listen, you don't have to apologize, you're good.

So, so like, so when you're— when you say that, yeah, you was severely depressed, um, I think you even said there obviously there was also potential, a toxic relationship with drugs, um, suicide ideation. Like, what, what did that actually look like? What did a day for Danny look like? And that— could you just paint a bit of a picture of what that actually looked like and maybe what that felt like?

Yeah, so in the worst of it, it was— so I had a period of— I remember, I'll never forget it— I had a period of 3 months where I was kind of having nightmares 4 or 5 times a week, and that had this knock-on effect. So I'd wake up in the morning and I would just be absolutely spent, just struggling to get out, really, really struggling to get out of bed, even though I knew I had work. And I wake up in this chaos. My living space was often a mess because I didn't have the capacity to even to even clean it, mate. And I would wake up in the morning and I knew that I needed to be this individual who could, one, wear a mask in work but also thrive. So that— because remember, my belief system was that a big month would fix everything. So I was like, I need to be in a really good headspace for me to create positive outcomes in this success-oriented environment I'm about to go into. So I remember just walking every day, every morning, saying, um, you're strong, uh, you're strong, you're successful, um, you're strong, you're capable, you will be successful. Every footstep, it was that— there was that much pressure that— and I was trying to physically get myself out of this point that I was in, that every, every footstep on the way to work, you're strong, you're powerful, you will be successful. That was the one. And I would get to work, and again, I'd put the kind of that mask on. And it was really— I think that was the biggest thing, because I couldn't be myself, and the individual that I was bringing to work wasn't actually me. And, and, and And that, that in itself was such a challenge. And I would go home and I would be really, really spent, just spent of energy and suicidal ideation in work. So I would often have kind of visions of, of things, really tough scenarios going on and feeling like the world was going to end. And the pressure of a role like recruitment when you're in that headspace is just maximized because things that are normal in the role say a candidate doesn't turn up for an interview, let's say, um, let's say a client postpones hiring because maybe they're going through an acquisition or something, or these things that are very, very normal in that space turned into huge problems for me that I felt were world-ending. And it was like everything was just imploding on top of me, and I didn't have the motivation or the will to actually make change. And just this very negative and downward spiral. That was in context to work. But then if we look at myself and, and more intrinsically about what I thought about myself, it was— and I think the most difficult thing for me was the lack of trust in my own thinking process. So I couldn't physically trust what I thought about myself, about who I was, about what I was thinking. And there was this huge gap between the person that I thought I was and who I actually was as well. There was this massive um, just this massive space and not being able to trust my own decisions and needing reassurance for everything, whether that was decisions in work or, or outside of work. Um, kind of really lost myself, and, and it was just tough. It was really challenging.

No, thank you for sharing that. I guess the other thing that— what, what's— because I think the other thing that I jotted down as well that I was going to say, do you want to touch on the breadcrumbs? Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, just because I think, because where I want to sort of tie this into is I definitely want to ask you at the appropriate time, like, with, with everything that you've learned on this journey and with hindsight, like, yeah, how can people get better at spotting those breadcrumbs, right? Because yeah, obviously you would have felt like you was leaving breadcrumbs, but other people may not have been aware of that, do you know what I mean? Um, yeah, so yeah, let's go into that, like, because that's also, as I said, I jotted that down where you was feeling like this, you had to put on a certain um, persona when he was at work. But I don't know, how many, how many people do you feel knew that when you went home, that was not who you were? And I don't know, you was very far from the person that they were seeing. Did many people actually know that, how you actually felt about yourself and what those beliefs were?

It's interesting because when I— there are some people who I've spoke to who were in that environment that I said, you know, I genuinely had no idea. There are a few that I was like, you know what, I need kind of knew something was, was going on, and it kind of makes sense now. And, and there is— and I think that was with the individuals who were closer to me, those who were kind of associates or just people, because I would honestly— I was the best mate at hiding this. I would come into work smiling, I'd be laughing on the ping pong tables, like just putting so much energy into trying to, to be the opposite of what I knew I was in order to, in order to hide what I was. And it was that idea of like if I looked amazing on the outside, no one would ever think to question if I wasn't okay on the inside. So I'm wearing Hugo Boss suits. I was broke at the time, like Hugo Boss suits, wearing all these nice clothes. I'm talking about who's, who's the top biller this year. I said, listen, give me a year, I'm gonna be there. Do you know what I mean? I'm talking like the whole world's in the palm of my hands when I'd actually, I'd actually lost it all. And, and it's scary to, to know how good I was at doing that. But that was something that had happened my whole entire life, so I was a master at it because I'd been doing it for years with my family, with my friends, even previously. And we talk about those breadcrumbs. So for me, those breadcrumbs— I didn't have the capacity to be able to speak and to be able to tell someone I'm struggling. When I was younger, I couldn't even— I wasn't even conscious of where things were emotionally in my mental state. So what I would do, it would— was leave behavioral breadcrumbs. And this happened through education. So again, and it's funny because that same idea in corporate of the image I was presenting and trying to be this high-performing individual who did very well in those first 7 months, um, it— that kind of concept is replicated in high school. So I was this high-performing kid playing instruments, performing on performing arts nights, football team, rugby team, uh, here and there on the rugby team, not too often, athletics team. And on the outside on the surface you'd think this kid is, is, is, he's just, there's nothing wrong and he's overcome everything. That was a great mask for some of the emotional complexities that I was showing through behavioral breadcrumbs. So for example, I was writing music at the time, as I just mentioned, and all the songs were, they were all in a minor key. So all on all sad songs, um, they were all about serious references to suicide and losing people and how I felt alone. And you pick out these lyrics from the songs I was actually writing and if you were just reading them, you'd think, I need to chat to the kid. Because it was wrapped up in this wonderful presentation of a musical piece that was very good, and I was quite talented on the guitar and the piano. I had a good voice back in the day. Because it was wrapped up in that, no one thought to ask, okay, are you okay? There was other times where I had changes in my social circle, so changes in my friend group. I had these emotional breakdowns that were kind of scattered in certain lessons across school. Um, I had kind of, um, moments where I would isolate myself from friends and sit myself in the music rooms on lunch. If anyone knew where to find me, it would be in the music room, because from year 9 I would just sit and teach myself piano. So there were these kind of behaviors that I was leaving. They were my way of trying to get people to notice that I wasn't okay without me actually having to say it, subconsciously. But then that intensified. So as the emotional weight of the pain grew and kind of the, the difficulty with the mental health challenges grew, the behaviors became more extreme. So again, with drugs, for example. So again, I, I couldn't speak to people, and I wasn't capable of, of even accepting support. And anytime anyone maybe would ask, I would— like, for example, my mum— I was great at flipping the conversation back on her. But then what I would do throughout my life is create chaos so that I would have to accept help from someone. So Maybe financially, I would ruin myself on a weekend when I was 18, 19, 20, so that I'd have to borrow money off my mum. Um, maybe there were times where I would, um, again get involved in, in, um, scenarios where I would end up harming myself or hurting myself, where again I'd have to ask for help. So I would create these, these moments of chaos so that I would have no other option other than to gain support. So that was my way of kind of crying out without actually using vocabulary. And that happened again all the way up to getting therapy.

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Yeah, so when you talk about self-help the, the idea of— well, it's in the title, isn't it? It's the self. And I tried for 12, 13 years to fix the self with the self, and it didn't work. And I think with the self-help stuff, it wasn't that I needed the help of myself, I needed the help of someone else. And it even got to a point where that became really toxic. So for example, I'm seeing all these and I'm reading about all these brilliant strategies, from meditation to the power of journaling to, um, kind of pushing your comfort zone and challenging your mind and your body. So all these sorts of things, and I'm like, right, okay, that must be the key to success from getting me from where I am now to being in a position where I'm thriving and I'm feeling good and, and all that sort of thing. So I'm, I'm like, Daniel, okay, let's, let's get your self-help structure, your self-help routine in every week. What does that look like? Meditation every day. Let's make sure you're journaling. Are you drinking enough water? Um, let's sign up for a half marathon because you need something to be able to work towards physically. All this sort of thing. And I had all these, um, what seemed like really positive, uh, elements of, of my routine. And, and don't get me wrong, those things are great, they're extremely important. But it came to a point for me where if I didn't do a 10-minute meditation, I'm gonna— done, you failed again. That reinforces the idea that I couldn't achieve and and that I wasn't capable and that I wasn't in a position to, to create positive outcomes and really impacted my confidence. And that half marathon that I signed up for, never actually did. Um, the journaling just became to a point— and again, it became so toxic because I was— had so much— they became things of pressure. It was like, if I don't do this, then, then again, it's, um, yeah, I failed with it. So I think with the self-help stuff now, it's all about balance. Do I journal? Every single day? No. Do I journal when I need to? Now, yes, 100%. Will I meditate every single day? No. Will I meditate twice a week if— especially if things aren't going too great? 100%. Will I up that if I feel like I need to? Yes. And it's having that self-awareness to understand when to implement self-help and, and what is right, um, and when is right to do that. So in— and in terms of that point you mentioned of, okay, so when did things really change? It had gotten to a stage where I genuinely— there was no— there was— I tried so much again, from, from the self-help stuff to trying to up my hours in work to, um, trying to, to, to just be someone who could, could fix all this myself. Um, all the, all the journey previously of those 13 years was, was all taking that responsibility of, of healing myself, of looking after my family, of, of of that whole journey. And then it came to a point where I was like, I've, I've tried everything. I am spent. I was like, I am so tired. I said, I've been trying this for so long and it's obvious that nothing was working. And I knew that if I didn't accept the help of someone else, then the prospect— I would have just ended up pretty much like my daddy was going. It was going that route. And that was a really scary moment for me because having been his son, or being the son of someone who's taken the life at 9 years old, again, I believed that I was capable of doing that because he's my dad, and surely if my life looks the same as his, I'm going to be capable of doing the same. And I always say, because he was getting kicked out of his home, he had kind of relationship issues, problem with drugs and alcohol, mental health issues, financial troubles. And I was like, at 9 years old, if my life looks like that, I'm going to do the same. And then here I was after running away for 10, 11 years trying to run away from that image, with then struggling financially, with not being able to pay rent at the time, with my relationships breaking down, with drugs and alcohol, a problem with cocaine, having abused and used drugs for some 4 or 5 years up until that point, um, to the financial— through all of it, I was like, I've spent 11 years running away from this thing and I've just ended up full circle back there. And that moment for me was like, I can't continue doing this. So I, yeah, spoke to my mom said, said two words on the phone, I'm struggling. And she drove up, we had another conversation the next day, and she just gave me everything that I needed. She, she, uh, what did that feel like, honestly, to finally say I'm struggling? Such a relief, such a relief. And I remember that at the point where she, she called me in the week afterwards, a couple days afterwards, and she was like, um, she's like, Dan, I've organized for you to go and see a therapist. She's like all you have to do is turn up. She's like, it's booked in, everything is done for you, all you have to do is turn up. It's in 2 weeks, will you go? And I remember just breaking down and I was just like, thank you, thank you, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I kept on saying over and over again because she had taken a step that I was never ever capable or willing to take for myself, but that I need— knew I needed so much. And for me, that, that was— it showed me the power of accepting support and listen That was the moment where I was like, you know what, we, we can't always do things on our own and we need other people. And that intervention from my mum, the action she took, was what really transformed my life because therapy again was transformational for me.

And then so basically you went on that— so what, you, um, do you still have therapy now or—

nope. So I did 11 months of therapy, psychodynamic psychotherapy, which looks at unearthing emotions and, and kind of feelings that are trapped within the subconscious. So it's often looks at childhood events. So this was the type of therapy that was really right for me. I mean, so it looks at those childhood events and belief systems and also how to navigate relationships as well in, in the present. Um, so I had a lot of difficulties with setting boundaries, and my relationship with, with others— friends, family, and relationships with partners— all became very difficult to navigate. And still at times are tough today. I still have to manage that side of things. So I had the psychodynamic psychotherapy for 11 months, yeah, alongside taking medication as well.

And then that, that was basically 11 months was you going on— obviously it's an ongoing journey, right? It's not— it's never— you don't complete it. That's the, the, the joy and also the crazy part about life, right? But you would say that would be— that was your, like, your healing journey where you was having to get into that environment and you had to answer the questions that you'd been avoiding up until that point, right?

Mate, I had to speak about things I thought I would genuinely— I'm not playing this, playing this up or exaggerating this. I spoke about things that I believed I would go my whole life without telling anyone.

Yeah, man.

And it was funny, like, the process, I hated it, mate. And when I first started going, I hated it. I used to walk down, I was angry, genuinely angry. And I used to sit in this room and I didn't— even in that room, I always tell people in my talks, like, for 4 months. We— I say we don't make— we didn't make any progress, but I didn't speak about anything deep or subsurface level for about 4 months. He would always ask me, how was your week going? Yeah, doing this in work, and this is— it would always be very cerebral, very surface level, because I'm still— I'm still putting my toe in the water with the idea of talking about things that deep and, and that are tough, and emotions and feelings and times I cried and all this sort of stuff. That still is a big no for me. So for the first 4 months, and I'm broke at the time, I'm paying £100 a week for this, this therapy. And, um, for the first 4 months, I'm just, yeah, I'm just not talking about anything serious, wasting time. And, um, it was funny because he used to ask me about kind of these sensitive areas, obviously, and he'd look for the way my body would respond. So, what's your relationship like with your family, with your dad, so on and so forth? Um, and he would watch for how my body would respond because then he'd know which areas he needs to dive into a bit more. But I would just kind of cut him off. I'd avoid eye contact. I'd look out this window. My whole body language would turn. I wouldn't face him. I wouldn't respond to him. And, and it was funny that I would watch kind of the clock on the windowsill out this big window in front of me just go down for, for kind of 10, 15 minutes at the end of every session. Because even in that room, like, I'm trying to find ways to escape. Yeah, I'm trying to find ways to hide, even at the point of knowing that I'm, I'm wanting and ready to heal. And it took 4 months. And I say I started that section saying I wasted the time, but it wasn't a waste because I needed that 4 months of being in that room, of dipping my toe in the water with some of that conversation, of being asked those questions. I needed that process of, of that 4 months of tension to then be ready in order to talk about the difficult stuff. And, and then when that happened, I physically— I remember there was, there was points where again I spoke about things that I thought I'd go my whole life without saying. And I remember there was this one time I got home and I just cried, mate, for like 30 minutes. Uncontrollable, like baby crying, baby, for like 30 minutes straight. I just couldn't stop after I'd put this specific thing down. And it was like that 13 years of pain just left my body. And after it, I was like— I took a deep breath, I was like, listen, that one needed to come out. That one's been in there for a while. And I started to understand then straight away, like, right, this is, this is powerful. This is working, let's do more of this, let's talk. And I just started turning up. I was like a different man. And, and my therapist kept on saying like how from that point how well I was implementing everything he was, he was telling me, um, how kind of engaged I was with wanting to, to, to do the difficult work, um, and how, how more self-aware I was around all the complexities around the whole journey. And I just started to make this incredible progress and I could see the results I was picking up all this momentum. I stopped having the nightmares, started to feel better about myself. I had a bit of chat back in work because one of the other things that happened was I was unable to engage in any of the social circles that, that happened in work, especially kind of on end of periods, for example, or if we go for meals and drinks. I remember just being sat there and my eyes would be fuzzy, so my eyes wouldn't focus. I couldn't physically speak to anyone. I would just sit in this world of chaos and That was also tough for me because the social aspect of recruitment was really important. So to get my chat back and my laugh and my banter back, I was like, yes, Dan's coming back. So I just kept on working and working through it and found more of myself again and started to implement things through the therapy, through changing my belief system, through rewiring some of that stuff that then allowed me to feel more content and to make progress. It was transformational.

No, no, it sounds it. Um, So what— let's start going into like what, what we've— what we've now— what you've learned from this person, because you've clearly learned a lot and will continue to learn a lot about yourself, um, and about others. But like, for, for someone listening to this that maybe still hasn't been willing to take that first step, like, I don't know, I feel like that is often the, the biggest challenge, right? Taking that first step. Like, like you said, it, it took a lot and a lot of time for you to pick up the phone and say to your mom that you're struggling. So, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot, like, if anyone's listened to this right now and they do feel— yeah, they're in that, they're in that chaos, and they're reluctant because their own selves are protecting them. There was everything you just said there. You're doing everything you can to protect yourself, right, in, in those first 4 months from dealing with the things head-on that you probably know that you need to deal with, but you're going to protect it all costs. Like you said, you're talking about things that you thought you'd never have to tell anyone, right? So what, what, what's your like advice for people to like— why, why should they take that first step? Or how can they— how can people, um, yeah, uh, have the ability to take that first step, which often can hopefully then lead to the things that you're describing, that momentum and getting to the point, um, where you are now? But how can people take that first step?

Yeah, I want to start by saying, me talking about the power of conversation and how important that was in my journey and all that sort of things, by no means am I belittling how difficult a task that is. Let's just— again, that took me 12, 13 years. I didn't— the first time I spoke to my mum about how I actually fully felt around my dad's suicide was 13 years after it happened.

Exactly. That's so much fucking time.

It's a long, long way over a decade.

Exactly, crazy.

It's a long while, so I'm not belittling how tough that is, um, 100%. And, and it, and it is a challenge, and we all have our own pressures that make that either easier or more difficult as well. Um, but I think it's about, okay, well, first of all, understanding you don't have to offload every single detail of the blueprint of your psychological makeup or even begin to, um, to talk in, in, in in a massive amount of depth about the things that you know you might need to face, or the things that are troubling you, or your mental health difficulties. How can you make that conversation as easy and as feasible as possible for you? Now, there's a number of ways that you can look to do that. I think the first is understanding, okay, what, what are you comfortable saying? Test the waters. What are you comfortable with? Can you Instead of speaking, before speaking about something, can you write a journal about some of these things? And, and can you write a, a page of some of the things that you've never spoken about? And how do you feel in that process? Is it too raw? If it is, okay, maybe leave it for a couple months and come back to it, maybe when you're different, in a different space. But writing on a page is a great way for you to, um, to, to make sense of what can seem so cloudy and, and, um, so difficult to, to comprehend and, and difficult to to actually conceptualize as well. So that's a great way to do it. But it's also understanding that, okay, maybe the first time that I'm speaking, I don't have to sit here and talk like Daniel's just done for the first 20 minutes, half an hour of that podcast, about every intricacy in detail. Can I just say two words? I'm struggling. That was me on the phone. I'm struggling. That was enough. That was like the most that I could handle right in that moment. It was like, this is a lot. Two words is all I've got. The next day I said a full sentence. My mum drove up. I said, I've just been struggling with depression and anxiety, suicidal ideation. I've got a bit of a problem with drugs. I said a full sentence. Then I went to my therapist appointment and the psychiatric appointment, so the consultation before he directed me to this psychotherapist. And he would ask me questions, and again I would talk to him a little bit more about my history. And then 6 months later of working that muscle of conversation I was able to sit down and offload more of the heavy stuff. So it's about understanding it's a process. Making that easy for yourself, um, I think is really, really important. And making that conversation easy for yourself at the start. And then it's also like, okay, what other ways or other things can I do to make that conversation easy? Who is it I'm speaking with? So who do I choose to actually, to actually speak with? Is there someone who has been vulnerable to me about things, who I know I can trust because they've shown me that they're, they're they're not afraid of judgment, or that they trust me? Is there someone in my friendship circle or work circle who has brought something to me and has trusted and confided in me with something that could have been potentially difficult for them to do? So, wonderful. Is there a person like that I can make out? And if so, where can that conversation take place? Where do you think I'd feel more comfortable? We know from research that men especially feel more comfortable talking about mental health and difficulties that they're having in life when they're doing an activity. So Do I feel better when I'm driving doing that? Is it better when I'm doing a walk? Can it be at the football, the football match? So it's about making and finding ways to make that initial conversation easier and understanding how you feel in that process. So again, if it is too much, maybe just leave it for a little bit. But if you, if you go there and you're like, you know what, feel a little bit better, and as much as that was really hard, I feel a little bit of positivity that's come from it. I feel a little bit lighter, my head's buzzing a bit, I feel a bit like I'm on my center line when I'm talking. Um, that was something that I needed to talk about. Cool, let's put a tiny bit more into it. And it's working that muscle of conversation. Um, also kind of listening to stories. I think that's the biggest thing because— and it's why I do the work that I do first and foremost, and why I give that raw, honest approach, and why I talk about things on a podcast that most people couldn't even comprehend talking about in a conversation. The reason for that is because this stuff is normal. I genuinely don't know anyone who has never ever gone through something that is very challenging in life, whether it's losing family, bereavement, financial issues, losing a business. We go through these things. That's life. Life is struggle in a sense. It genuinely is. To think that these areas aren't normal and to think that we need to hide these areas because of the way society is and that they're embarrassing and that they're not a normal part of life and that again, we should shy away from them, I think, is part of the problem. Because again, they are so normal. So if you can listen to someone in conversation, whether it's on a podcast or maybe someone who has gone through similar life experiences than you— to you, sorry— that's a great way to normalize what feels like a unique pressure in your head. Because that's the other thing of the mental health challenges. When you're in it, you feel like it's just you. You feel like nobody understands how you feel. And I'm turning up to work every day and I'm thinking, you guys don't even know the half of it. And and you're telling me why I'm not building up this much, and I'm not this much, as much this month, and I'm sat here dealing with 13 years of unresolved childhood, all this stuff. I'm sat like thinking that it's just me when we know statistically it's not. So I think listening to conversation can really help normalize what feels abnormal, what feels alien, like what feels like it's just something you're dealing with. And that's a great relief because then you're like, right, okay, it's not just me. This stuff happens. What has this person done? Can I try something that they've done? Can I learn from them? And, and it's that sense— it's taking kind of the fear out of, of it. And I think those are some good points too.

No, yeah, I really like the piece about— and yeah, you're obviously a testament of this— I do really like the piece of like, yeah, you're not gonna go from not talking about things to talking about everything in one therapy session, or just to, to someone, right? Like, chip away at it. Start with things that maybe you're comfortable with, like you said, test the waters, and then build from there. Do it in an environment or with people. Yeah, I really like that. So I guess, yeah, the, the thing, the things that I wanted to, um, go into then at the latter end of this conversation is, because I have my own, um, views on this, like, how, from your journey, how important would you say is self-awareness?

Huge. Without, without self-awareness, I would not be able to give myself the things that I need in the times I need them. I wouldn't be able to know when I'm thriving, how I'm thriving, what's making me thrive, or what's helping me thrive, what I need to do more of. I wouldn't have any understanding or roadmap to the areas of myself that I need to develop and the areas of myself that I'm actually content with as well, because I think that's another thing. It's like on the idea of self-help and, and kind of personal development. It's the idea that we feel like that every single part of ourselves is, is not okay and that it all needs work and that it all needs to, to, um, to be developed and to have that TLC to it. When there's probably a lot of parts of yourself that you can look at if you really spend the time using that self-awareness and that self-reflection, where you can sit there and go go like, you know what, Hishem, like, I'm actually really pleased with this, these parts of myself. I don't, I don't need to listen to anyone who's telling me I need to improve these, or I don't need to listen to the podcast that's on my finances or whatever, or this and this, because I'm actually great in those areas. Let me focus on the parts of myself that I need to improve. That's one thing that I've found really important as well, is, is understanding the areas of myself that I do need to work on and the areas of myself that I'm actually content with. Because we can be left in this void that makes us feel, especially with social media, like we need to, to work on every part of ourselves at every single point. In our lives every single day, and it's just not the case. So that self-awareness helps take some of that pressure off as well. I think it's, yeah, it's key.

So how, like, yeah, I think it's so important, and I'm not surprised that you said that. So like, how, from your perspective and your journey, like, how can people listening to this become more self-aware? Or like, yeah, because I, I think some people actually would find that really difficult. So how can, how can, from your perspective, what's the typical advice that you give for people to cultivate more self-awareness?

Yeah, well, there is obviously the route of therapy. That, for, for someone, if you want to learn about your behaviors and your beliefs and where they come from and, and why they exist and why you do the things that you do and all of that, again, the blueprint of your psychological makeup, therapy is amazing. And you don't have to be in a bad place to, to go to therapy if you genuinely just want to learn about yourself. And you'll hear all the athletes and top sports people talk about it because what you gain from it is, is It's one of the greatest investments. It's the— I wouldn't be doing this stuff if I didn't go through therapy because of the self-awareness it gave me. It helped me understand, uh, the events I'd gone through, beliefs that had stemmed from those events, behaviors that stemmed from those beliefs, and how they're impacting my life. And then what you're able to do is be like, okay, um, when something challenges me that would typically make me fall back into those urges of taking drugs or being reckless or ruining my bank account, I'm able to sit there and go, Dan, yes, this thing has happened, and yes, it's unfair, and yes, you want to go and take a load of drugs at the weekend now. However, you know why that exists and you know where it comes from, and you also know what it brings you. So let's go in a different direction. And when you can do that, you start to really reframe again your outcomes and change your outcomes. And, and so therapy is amazing for that self-awareness and giving yourself that understanding of you. But also tools like journaling. People don't understand how powerful a tool that is, because when do we ever— like, we'll sit there and we'll learn about processes in recruitment, we'll learn about sales training and all this sort of stuff, like, and we'll write all these notes and we'll spend hours and hours and hours bettering ourselves in that area. But when do we actually sit and then try and spend the time to understand ourselves and write about how we feel today and why that could be, and why you had an argument with that person that was close to you when they, um, broke your trust or whatever, and why you've had a certain reaction to certain things. Like, jotting those things down in journals is an amazing way, because then what I always notice with my journaling is I can look back after 3 months of journals and I'm like, right, Dan, I've seen this certain thought's been coming up quite often. We know we need to put some time over there. You're still having trust issues in your relationship or whatever. Um, yeah, we know that's a point that you probably need to to put some energy towards. So it helps you, um, really kind of encapsulate where you're at, where your thoughts are, what you're thinking, where your behaviors are at, and then you can make change from them. So that's a great way to build it. And the more you notice those things, the more you can do it in real time as well, not just on when you're journaling, but throughout the day. Meditation— again, people say, and they'll say all the time, that meditation for mindfulness and but it genuinely is like having that time and that space to, to sit with yourself with no phone for half an hour, with just you, no music on in the background, no nothing there, no laptop open, no work emails coming through, no TV, no Netflix on. To have that solitary time, which in today's world we rarely, rarely get, to have that time to sit with yourself and to pay attention of, okay, where's tension in my body? Where do I feel tension? Have I got any anxiety? Okay, when I feel anxiety, where does that tend to be? Is it in my stomach? Is it in my chest? Does that usually get tight? Um, and, and okay, well, ask yourself those important questions of what's serving me right now? What behaviors am I engaging in that are damaging the relationship that I have with myself? What's improving the relationship I have with myself? Like, the quality of the questions you ask yourself improves the quality of your life. It's one of those things, isn't it? The, the more difficult questions and the more complex questions you can ask yourself about you the greater answers you're going to get that are going to help you to improve your life. So the meditation, the journaling, if you're looking to do that personally, is great. Therapy, I would always just recommend for anyone who's trying to increase that self-awareness because of, of the value you get from it.

Yeah, and I love that. Some— so we did a, um, something I really like as well. We did a session, a live session, uh, yesterday with Katie Maycock, and we're talking about self-awareness and there's a really practical exercise. You've probably come across this, or maybe even given this advice for people, but something that she got, um, the group of recruiters to do is just to ask yourself, how are you feeling, um, 1 out of 10, 10 being great, 1 being really bad, and writing down the number. And if that number is 8 or below, you then ask yourself the question, what can I do today to help me get feeling more towards a 10? So even just simple things like that, like how— just asking yourself the question, how are you feeling today, and rating yourself out of 10 is a great way to cultivate that. I think the other thing in line with what you said as well, and I don't do this every single day, but I'd say more often than not, purposely and intentionally, I will not go on my phone for the first like 30 minutes, um, sometimes longer, uh, of the day. Just because, like you said, it— if, if we're all honest with each other, there we can go a whole day, um, not having any space to process our own thoughts and how we're feeling. Like, we're just always getting external stimulus. Um, so I think that's another thing that people can easily implement is first 30 minutes don't go on your phone. And, and what that means is you are— you're going to be of your, your thoughts. No podcast, no music, just you're, you're— yeah, you're just thinking, you're processing shit.

And that is hard for people.

Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, so start with 5 minutes, 10 minutes.

Exactly.

Um, so I think that they're, they're definitely, um, they're things that helps me. The other thing I just wanted to ask you, and then let's go on to um, more what you've seen in the recruitment world, and we'll finish there. But how— the other part that I think is really important, we spoke about self-awareness, but what about, um, personal responsibility?

It's huge.

How do you feel about that?

It's huge. I think it's key because— and I think I'll be honest, like, there's a lot of expectations on organizations to provide the solution to every part of our lives at the moment, from kind of healthcare to, um, Simon Sinek was talking about it, so to kind of mental health and all this sort of stuff, to be the solution. And yes, to an extent it's really important those systems and those processes are in place, 1,000%, but there also comes with a responsibility to, one, access them and, and to create change for, for yourself as well. And, and, and that kind of personal accountability and personal responsibility in context to mental health is, is key. We think about it with kind of drugs and whatnot. If you know your mental health has been suffering for a long, long while and you are not doing anything to— and you're engaging in drugs, let's say, at the weekend, and you know that every time you take cocaine your serotonin level drops for 10 days, it takes 10 days to come back up— that's not helping. What can you do? Can you have conversations to make sure that, okay, if that's where you're at, how can, how can I change that sort of thing. Um, so taking that accountability and responsibility, that is the only way that you, you ever— you, you can ever make change. I think it's pivotal. It is pivotal.

Yeah, because I think that's— I don't know, that's just definitely things that— yeah, I think again it's difficult for people to take that. I feel like for some people, and I think as long as you, as long as you give power to the things that you can't control, I think you're always going to struggle, do you know what I mean? I feel like this because of that. Or I'm this way because of that. Again, I think that, that personal responsibility piece is something that, yeah, people— that's a whole journey I think as well people have to go on. But like you said, if you do take that, then you can grow, um, and you can change.

Yeah.

And I know, yeah, I think that's, that's the other thing I think that's really important. This is like, if you're being honest with yourself, how much power are you giving to things that you can't control as to like why you feel certain things? And I know there's so many— there's a lot of nuance and context for everyone's different situation, but I think if you try and take as much personal responsibility as possible, you've got a greater chance of having more good days than bad days.

Yeah, 100%. And there are always, there are always things we can control as well. I think that's the beautiful thing in any situation, that are always controllables. And often when things feel out of control, again, writing a list of, um, just jotting down, okay, what's worrying me at the moment, or what's, what's impacting my life negatively at the moment and writing down that list of everything that it is, and then going through that list. And the ones that you can't control, cross off the ones that you can control. Amazing. Work through, prioritize, work through. But then there's also kind of, um, that flip side of— you mentioned about beliefs, of not believing we can change things. Start with the language that you use. So if I might think like, okay, you know what, I, I don't believe that I can— like, I, I just can't stop taking drugs at the weekend. I say that, I just, yeah, I just can't. I just, every time, I just can't do it. Change your language. Just say, look, like, yet. Add the word yet in. It's a really, really powerful word. But actually creating that change in your mind of even just the language that you're using and saying, you know what, I can't stop taking drugs yet, or I can't stop doing this yet, straight away you're telling yourself. And our words, the words that we use, are extremely important because they're powerful. They genuinely are, and, and they have a big impact on ourselves. That little small change of just using that word then helps you understand for you that, you know what, this is something that right now maybe not, but there's the possibility in the future. And even little small changes like that with the language can be important to change those beliefs that feel like they'll never shift.

So let's sort of finish this up on just one or two things surrounding recruitment, because I think a lot of the stuff that we've spoken about today hopefully can encourage people to speak up. You've mentioned a bunch of things that have helped you on your journey that hopefully will help others. But I guess obviously you worked in recruitment. Now obviously I can see that you're going into a bunch of different recruitment companies. I guess the first thing I just wanted to ask you, to get your take on, again maybe now because you're out of it and you've been on your own journey, but what— why, why do you think so many people within recruitment end up finding themselves really struggling with their mental health? Like, what's your take on that? And I think I've got a bit of a snippet of that yesterday. We had Yeah, just over 50 recruiters joined us for the live session, and when we did that exercise, I think a third, a third of, of, um, the people that joined us put down 1, you know, 1 out of 10, 1 out of 10, do you get what I mean? So I think a lot of people, yeah, like a lot. I was quite surprised, to be fair. There was no— there was— everyone was under 8. Everyone was under 8, right? So I don't know, what's your take? You're out of it, you've been on your journey, you're now going into businesses. Like, what What's your take on like why you think, um, a lot of people can find themselves struggling with mental health specifically in a recruitment context?

Yeah, I think, well, statistically it's 82% of recruiters suffer with chronic stress, so it probably correlates with the reason why majority of them yesterday were under 8 and some of them even at 1, which— that's it. It's a shame, isn't it? It is, it is really, really tough. And I think it is the, the demands of the job, isn't it? And, and I think those pressures of the role there's so many positives. And when I look back at my, my journey and my time, I'm like, there was so many like gems that I was learning. There was so much positivity, um, the, the capability for career development, the financial side of it, of course, um, the skills that I was learning to, to deal with people and to manage people and to understand processes of businesses. Like, those things are genuinely invaluable, and I wouldn't be able to, to be the person I am today without what I learned in the industry. There's so many positives. But I think what can be tough is when you have external pressures, because the demands of the job are quite high. Obviously, those demands really increase and become more difficult when we have pressures outside of work. So when we have additional life challenges, that can just make and propel the difficulties of recruitment and the stress in recruitment. Though, like I said, those small things that are normal in the role become more annoying, more frustrating, more stressful. You get angrier quicker. And that's why I think kind of understanding balance and the pressures of the role is really, really important, and knowing when to actually take your foot off the gas. And I think it is so easy as well to throw yourself into the role too much, where drive can become negative, where you can avoid everything that you know you need to deal with in the pursuit of financial gain and career development and all those sorts of things. And that's a quick route to burnout, isn't it? And I think that's another thing, is because of the role and because of how easy it is to fall into just being consumed by the position, that often we don't pay attention to the parts of ourselves that we need to tend to and give some TLC to. So I think, again, around the stress, I think it is with the, obviously, the pressures of the role, the hours, again, are difficult, but I think it's, people, um, not tending to themselves and giving themselves what they need. I have a lot of conversations with recruiters who know probably how they need to support themselves. And it's that question of, if I ask you 5 things to better look after your mental health, you'll be able to give me them in, in probably 3 minutes. A lot of people would be able to. A lot of the recruiters, they know what they do need to do to improve the mental health, but it's actually, actually the action of, of doing it. So it's the why reason. And, and and doing the small things, um, because a lot of those things as well, what we talk about that support our mental health, they seem so small and they seem so insignificant that they're so easy to miss, especially when you have the pressures of the work and the interviews and the numbers and the KPIs. Like, the small things that actually give us the support that we need are so easy to miss, um, in the role. So I think it's a combination of that sort of stuff.

Yeah. And then let's end on, like, for people listening to this who manage people maybe, um, maybe do have a bit of a sense of they might have someone like Dan in their team who they can maybe just see a bit under, under the hood, but then not maybe not sure how to approach it. What's your advice for people if you think what would have— I don't know if it, um, this would have happened, but like thinking of you in that work environment, what could have a manager done to make themselves more approachable, uh, for you to at least test the waters or dip your toe in to go, this is how— like, yeah, I know I'm getting— I know I sort of come across like this, but this is how I'm feeling at the moment. Like, how people— how can people listening to this become more approachable for people to speak up and say, this is what I'm really struggling with at the moment? I don't know, what advice do you have people on, on that?

You mentioned it's about approachability, and there's a number of ways that you can make yourself more approachable, and I think that are really important for, for for arming yourself as a manager to be able to have those conversations and to not only be able to, to, to have them but to deal with them properly and to, to be someone who people can come to with that sort of stuff. If we look at kind of using vulnerability, and again today we spoke about vulnerability and how it is genuinely a superpower, I think one of the things is if, if, if you're a manager, for example, and you never talk about mental health or you never talk or, or even have the conversation, or if you add to stigma through the language that you use, for example, that creates barriers. And people— you can't expect people to approach you with something that is, again, very scary, very vulnerable, if you have been adding to stigma. If you use words like crazy, or if you're talking, or you kind of make jokes around mental health or whatever, or that sort of thing. It's about getting those barriers out the way so that people can feel like they can approach you. Using your own vulnerability, talking about stress, anxiety, maybe writing a post here and there on LinkedIn around mental health. Or if you don't have that firsthand understanding, can you use resources within your team to promote discussion? Can you have time dedicated in your week? And I know a lot of businesses are doing this now at the moment anyway, where you have a mental health check-in. Or if you don't, can you just be someone who says like, how are you? No, but honestly, I'm not worried about work at the moment. How actually are you? Like, I really want to know how you're doing. And it's about that empathy and that compassion, because if you're someone who again is speaking around mental health, if you're writing posts, if you're getting involved with stuff that's happening in the business, if you are really taking that time to be compassionate and empathetic and to check in on people, not on work, in on people, then if I have an issue, I'm gonna like, I'm gonna know that I can trust you. Also, there's also that point of using your own vulnerability. So if you are going through something Or if you are, you're dealing with an issue and you don't— again, you don't have to go into detail, but if you can use that as a way to put your trust in your team and say, look, you know, I'm going through this at the moment, I'm a bit more anxious than usual, sorry if I'm off my game, I've just got some stuff I'm trying to deal with. Can you have those sorts of conversations? Because the moment you do that, people can take a step back, take a breather, and think, right, you know what, Daniel's just mentioned to me about something that last month that I'm actually struggling with today. I know I can chat to him. 'Cool, let me go and speak to him.' I think that's a great way to, to increase that approachability aspect of being, being a manager. The second part comes with education, because it's great having people come to you, but there's also a detriment if that conversation is then not handled right. So if you don't handle that conversation of mental health right, when someone really opens up to you with something that is, is tough, then the impact on the, the actual employee and the, the person can be massive. So it's important that we do educate ourselves on what that can feel like, what it can look like, the behaviors, the symptoms, so that we can have and navigate those conversations with more compassion and more empathy. But then also give a team member the support and the guidance that they need. Because if I'm a team member again, and if I open up to my manager and that conversation is handled wrong, or if I'm told that I can't cope with the pressures of the job, or if I'm told that I'm just being silly or lazy or whatever, or anything, or any notion even— and that might not even be through language, it might be through body language. If I make a face when you talk to me about your mental health and I'm like making a puzzled face, or if I'm like looking sarcastic or any of those things, the ramifications on the individual— that trust barrier then is gone, and they'll never have another opportunity to open up again because that was, that was like their point. They've mustered up all this energy to come and speak to you, and the moment they have done it's not been handled right. So it's really important that it is an education around, one, how to notice signs and symptoms around common mental health conditions. It doesn't have to be all of them— depression, anxiety, um, how that could feel for someone listening to podcasts like this— so they can say, okay, well, how could it impact someone's work? Having discussions within the team like that sort of thing is going to equip you with the tools and skills to, to be someone who is, a, approachable, uh, and b, can, can handle that and can guide someone in your team to, to the support that they actually need, whether that's internal or external. And then you think about what happens. We talk about retention issues and, um, kind of within teams at the moment and within companies at the moment. If I'm given the support that— and if that conversation is handled and my mental health is tended to in an environment that again can be quite challenging, my loyalty— you think about the increase of loyalty, you think about the relationship that's developed between that manager and that individual, that sense of connection that sense of, of, of kind of gratitude for what that person has done, that's again, it's just going to go through the roof. So that's why it is really important, and the effects of that are massive.

Yeah, I love that. Well, I think let's end it there. I think, Dan, thank you so much for being, yeah, authentic, vulnerable, sharing your story. A bit of a different one for all of you listening, but at the end of the day, we're all here, we're all people, we're all human beings. And I think, yeah, recruitment is difficult, and I think If you can, if this helps you speak, speak up, or be more comfortable to take that first step, then I think we'd be really happy. If you've learned a few things, if that's developing self-awareness or the power of personal responsibility, or about some of the coping mechanisms and things that work for Dan, then again, hopefully that's been really helpful for all of you. But yeah, Dan, love the work that you're doing, mate. I think I always respect people who turn their hardship and really difficult moments in their life into the reason why they want to help other people, or help other people so they don't have to go through all the things that you went through, right? So yeah, no, massive thank you for joining me on the pod. Been an absolute pleasure, mate.

Appreciate the time as well.

And yeah, thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it Please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.