Early on in recruitment series | Aman Mann from the InterEx Group

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and this is another edition of our graduate entry-level focused podcast series where we're sitting down with recruiters who may have recently graduated or are early on in their recruitment career to sort of uncover, one, how they're thriving in their first couple of years, what challenges they're working through, and most importantly, to find out what advice they can give all of you listening who may be also early on in your recruitment career or at least considering a career in recruitment. So I'm really excited to be joined by Aman today. So Aman, before we get started, if you could introduce yourself, let everyone know who you are for those that may not know who you are, and we'll get into it.

Sure. So I graduated in 2019 from Aston. Ironically, I did a placement year in recruitment before so was well versed to the, to the sort of place, the industry. And now I'm at Interex Group, which we're a cloud data Microsoft firm in, you know, operating in Europe and America. And I've been there for around 6 months now as a consultant. So yeah, pretty excited to speak to you today.

I love that. So let's unpack this then. So you did a placement year in recruitment, like, so did you want it, do you want to get into recruitment?

Yeah, so kind of. It was more like administration recruitment. So university would advertise free jobs and we would say to the people, you know, the students advertise this, speak to the clients and say, look, we've placed this job here. How many people have we placed? Then we'd have to collate a lot of reports, talk to these clients on a day-to-day basis. Not like the hardcore sales that this is, but it's sort of that 10% of the job. So That's kind of what intrigued me.

Yeah, yeah, fair. So like, obviously when you graduated then, like, talk to me about what— was it recruitment that you set out to get into? Was it an accident? Like, what—

no, how did that happen? 100% wanted to get into it because of this placement. I typed in— I was doing my placement, I loved it, and I typed in a job similar to this. I didn't really know anything at that time, I'll be honest with you.

Sure.

And then I saw £100 grand a year, all that stuff that they say. Um, I, I like that part, but I also like the part of speaking with candidates, speaking with clients, and having a busy life. Um, and then, yeah, pretty much when I graduated, I was doing— in the middle of my exams, I did 3 days at my previous company of like assessment days and got the job before I graduated. So started pretty much instantly after.

Love that.

Yeah.

So what I, what I'd love to hear from you then is like what What skills or experience do you think has recruitment given you that maybe you least expected?

I think, you know, people talk about the resiliency and hard work, but for me it's that sort of commercial business acumen. You know, you're not just someone who finds a CV and places them, but you're speaking to people about their needs, challenges. You understand why the business— so it really gives you that business perspective more than anything. And I really like that facet. I think that's the most underrated trait that comes out of recruitment, rather than just saying Here's a CV, let's place it.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. So talk to us a bit more about that, 'cause I know when we sort of prepared for this, that was something that you think, like if I'm listening to this right now, if you can actually, yeah, make the time and space to really understand how you can cultivate that commercial acumen and that sort of business understanding. But why do you think that's underrated or why do you think that's important out of interest?

Yeah, so I'll give you an example. I'm speaking to a lot of C-suite from, you know, these Fortune 500 companies in America, you know, they're famous in their own world. Yeah. What you've got to be able to do is relate to these people like you're speaking to them as if you're one of them. If you can't relate to them, how can you have the conversation to uncover their pain, under— uncover their needs? You've kind of sometimes got to go to these guys and say, you know, you're in this space, here's the problem, here's the issue, um, and tell them what's wrong. And they, they really appreciate that because it shows you're sort of on their level rather than that sort of subordinate to client perspective. I think it shows that you can be a value add, and that's the part I really like the most, is not controlling— that's the wrong word— but speaking to people like you're on the same level, you know. Yeah, that's kind of why.

And how can people go about cultivating that early on then? Is that something that you've really tried to learn in your own time, or like, how have you got better at, yeah, I guess, working on that commercial muscle? Because clearly there would have been a bit of learning there.

Oh, 100%. No, great question. I think where you learn that is the reading outside, the books, the looking, looking at the news. You know, for example, during coronavirus, we, we made a tactic, and I made a tactic to only go at companies that would be busy during this time— the logistics, the pharma— rather than going for companies that maybe have probably— how do I put it, um, yeah, had a difficult time. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of where it comes from. And then you understand the pain from one client and you know that another client's going through the same issue. So you take that to them and almost tell them that that's your mistake. So that's that commercial side. I think that's really underrated because how can you let people buy into you if you don't know anything about their world?

Yeah, honestly, I love the fact that this is your mindset towards— like, it's so easy at the beginning of your career just to think about, like, I'm, I'm helping this person get a job, or like— and you're already thinking about the, the whole picture and understanding, like you said, what these people's pains are and obviously having the right people in the right seats or you getting them the right people is obviously part of that solution. But you're already thinking about the bigger picture, which I absolutely love that. Talk to me about— I think people would be interested. A lot of people early on can sometimes obviously be quite fearful of speaking to people that maybe older than them, more experienced than them, a bit of imposter syndrome, like, oh, who am I to— like, it seems like you're really quite confident in talking to these people, right? And I think some people in your shoes may feel like, oh wow, I'm speaking to C-suite level people, like, and I'm obviously only graduated in 2019. I haven't got anywhere near as much experience as them. Like, how have you dealt with that of interest? Has that been an issue? How have you overcome it? If someone is listening to this that maybe is a bit feeling, fearing from that bit of imposter syndrome, like, oh, maybe I'm not too experienced to speak, I don't know, What's been your journey with that?

You know, it's been tough, right? At the start, as everyone does, you see that client on the pedestal and you can speak to candidates like for days. But I've actually found that it swung the other pendulum. What has happened for me is I've realized that on the business side, I've done this before. I can speak to these guys. I've got people in my family who are in the business side as well. So I'll speak to these guys and say, look, what are your challenges? What are your issues? Take that to the client itself and they will pretty much agree. I think regardless of whatever level you are in management, you have the same issues in terms of challenges with hiring, challenges with business, and the pendulum for me swings. So I used to put candidates on— I used to speak to candidates for days and, you know, I could talk to them forever. But now it's more shifting towards the client side because I'm in a technical field now. Sometimes I don't get that stuff. So I can easily relate to these guys because I've done business. I read the books that they do. It's really immersing yourself in that world. But that's something I enjoy. I think you've got to inherently enjoy speaking about this stuff rather than forcing it.

Yeah, fair enough. Interesting. So what, what have been some of your— obviously we all, I'm sure you would have heard it, but a lot of people sort of articulate that the first year in recruitment, first two years in recruitment, uh, bloody difficult. Maybe the most difficult parts of your working career if you end up working in recruitment for the long haul. Like, what have been some of the challenges that you've had to be— that you've had to work through so far?

First is the mindset and getting into what— not only from working hard, but making your life catered towards that. I think you've got to have a lot of sacrifices. I didn't necessarily understand that at the start. I was with a lot of high-performing people in another— in my old company, and I was just thinking, how do I get there? I'm miles away. So it's really about stripping it back for me, looking at sort of the basics, whether that's, you know, the eating right. I'm starting to get there now. I'm not perfect. The exercise, and then it all follows into place. I think you've got to immerse yourself in this life rather than sort of taking it as a 9 to 5. That's my honest opinion for the first year, at least just to build your ground. But it has been tough in terms of that first year, a lot of challenges. When I did that recruitment placement year, It was nothing like— and I came in to my first place thinking, I know this all, I did really well in my placement. And then it was a different world. The leads, the reference calls, everything. There's so much that you need to think about. So strip it back, keep it simple, and then the rest will follow. That's how I look at it.

Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So I guess what advice would you give to yourself if you were just graduating and entering recruitment? For the first time, knowing what you know now, out of interest?

Keep it simple. Um, I used to really go the complicated way, thinking in my head, look, I need to do this, this, this every day. I was thinking of innovative ways that probably didn't work, but I thought would have worked. But just keep the basics and the rest will follow. That's how I look at it. And because otherwise you can end up working out too much, working too much, and not getting any results, which is what I found in my first place. I was really burnt out towards the end of it. I wasn't seeing much results. And yeah, and then really when I started here, it's following the basics and the rest is again follows. I keep on saying that, but it's true.

Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about— because I think that is definitely one of the challenges, I think, especially for people early on in their recruitment career, can burn out. Or like, just because there's just so much you can do, you want to prove people, right, that you prove people that you can do it. Like obviously, like you said towards the end there, you may be feeling a bit burnt out and these sorts of things. So what things have you done now then to avoid that? Have you— so it seems like obviously you're thinking about the whole picture. So instead of just putting all your energy into work, you're thinking about, yeah, what you're putting into your body. You're trying to make space for exercise, like you're trying to obviously, obviously the sort of holistic thing rather than just putting it into work. Yeah, I don't know what if someone maybe is feeling a bit like, wow, I'm literally just absolutely working my socks off at the moment. I don't know how much longer I can, I can do this for. Like, what would you say to them?

I'd say, look, strip it back a bit. You've got your workday, focus on work then completely, 100%. Do the basics in that particular time, i.e., the calls, the admin, the LinkedIn piece, for example, like yourself, you promote. Do all that within your workday, and then the rest of the day, focus on other areas that will tailor to the work. So again, I'm not perfect with this, I'll be honest with you, but the exercising, the eating healthy, that all feeds into your work. It sort of prepares your mind. But really don't spend 100%, like you said, in work. Focus on other areas and the rest will follow. But really do immerse yourself into that work as well. You know, you've got to. Yeah.

So, okay, cool. Interesting. So what, what advice— so like if I'm listening to this right now and I'm like, I might have just graduated I might come across some jobs about recruitment, might pique my interest. Like, what advice would you give me if I was just starting out?

What, into an interview or recruitment itself?

Well, I'll definitely get some of your thoughts on like the interview tips, but I guess like if I'm someone— so let me reframe that. So like if I'm someone that has landed a recruitment job, and I start tomorrow, like, what would you say to me if me and you were down the pub and I was like, mate, I'm just about to start recruitment like you did? Like, no more. Yeah. What would you say to me?

Yeah. Don't chat shit a lot of the time, I think, is one. People go in, they think that their next month is going to be the biggest month. They think that they're going to do X, Y, Z. Just focus on your work. Learn every day, even outside of work. Learn whether that's not recruitment, but the business side that I mentioned, the mindset. Think about all of these things because eventually they all add up into a bubble and that sort of compound effect comes and then it all, when you least expect it, it's like a bus coming 3 times and you only get, you know, when you've been waiting for ages, it will all follow into place. But really focus on your craft first, focus on the basics, whether that's the candidate stuff, getting information out to candidates, build up your client spread, and then eventually from there it will all follow. I promise that. It's happened for me.

Yeah. Okay. Talk to me about, because I remember seeing your videos and stuff on LinkedIn, like how, like what about, obviously there'll be a lot of people graduating, there'll be a lot of people obviously on the job market trying to enter work for this, for the first time. Obviously it's super competitive. So like what advice would you give to people to like stand out amongst their peers and amongst other graduates that might be trying to get into the recruitment industry and be applying for the same jobs?

Yeah, this is my fault. I think this is my forte here. Like I said, I used to do the LinkedIn videos. It doesn't quite fit in with the brand I'm in now in tech, but really what the focus is right now, I'd say, in terms of interviews and standing out, all you need to do— I think people neglect this— but research the company that you're interviewing like crazy. If you want to go into a company and you really like it, all I say is Look at 3 different facts about the company that you would have to dig deep in on the internet. Explain this in the interview that you know this and ask questions around it. Get the interviewer talking more. In the interview, what you want to do, in my opinion, is look at 60% these guys talking and 40% you. You want to get them talking. You want to get them selling the role back to you. Inadvertently, you learn more when they talk to you as well. You can then play off of what they talk to you about. And sell against that, if that makes sense. I don't know how to word that, but you can sort of tailor your answers to what they say, but really go in with a mindset to learn in an interview and then you can tailor your questions, but really go in with facts that you know that not many other people would know and really just going confident. You know, it's only a conversation. Look at it as you're having a chat between me and you today. This is not a person like a client to a candidate subordinate level. This is a peer-to-peer. They want you as well. It's a hard market out there to find talent. People are gearing for talent now in recruitment and it's tough. So you can easily stand out.

And then talk to me about, because I know we spoke about this, like what about, so obviously the company was that before, it was a different market. So like, yeah, yeah. So like talk to me about what about like, what about thinking about what market I should go into or I don't know what, what's been, what's obviously I know that you're in the market that you're in now, but I guess, did you spend much time thinking about the type of industry that you wanted to recruit in? What was your journey with that?

First, sort of when I joined, I was looking at professional services. I didn't want to do any sort of warehousing, construction, that kind of stuff. That just wasn't myself.

So you knew that? Yeah.

So I did finance. I, you know, I looked at the Robert Half company. It's huge, right? Everyone knows that. Yeah. That corporate ladder. It wasn't quite for me and I just feel like it's very bureaucratic. The commission's not very good. There's not much say, but the finance market itself is good. But then what I saw was obviously the tech market itself. There's so many different areas of tech that you can sort of double down in one area, one niche, and there's so much more money to be made because we're only at the start of it. So I chose that one for the money aspect, but two, because the guys in these fields, they have a lot of power in terms of the business. So Speak to these guys and you can unlock doors like no tomorrow because you look at one vertical of tech, they could be hiring 200 people, but overall they could be hiring thousands. So it's the money aspect, but also that business-to-relationship aspect. Well, if I would say, if you're going through recruitment and you want to have that sort of relationship with a client, look at the professional services. Don't look at the construction, the warehousing, unless you have the passion for that. If you want to make serious money, look at the professional services, 100%.

And what about, what are your thoughts on like being in a space that you're personally interested, passionate about? Is that something that has helped you that you thought about? Do you think that's something people should be thinking about?

Yeah, 100%. I think that is a key. When I was doing finance, I actually did an element of finance in my degree. I did a business degree, so there was elements of finance. So I understand these guys and I was kind of recruiting for people I graduated with. Which was crazy. So it was kind of like talking with friends. That's 100% a factor, you know, have an interest. Like, I'll give you an example right now. I'm in tech. I don't have 100% passion for it, but when I'm speaking with clients, they're talking a lot about business and that's a conversation I could talk to them for an hour, an hour and a half. I enjoy it, but I couldn't have that conversation if I was in looking high volume, I don't know, retail or—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So is, is, is recruitment really as intense as everyone says it is?

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, I think the first— again, I'm only like a year and a half in, I'm still in that phase where you're still grinding, working hard, doing extra hours. That's what needs to be done, I think, unless, unless you're really super focused, efficient in your hours, which I'll be honest, I'm not. I tend to be focused and then have a drab of a day where I'm kind of, you know, I look— yeah, I admit that. But you need to work the extra hours, whether that's to add to your clients, add to your candidates, do your extra admin, LinkedIn, for the first year at least. Then when you build your client spread, your candidate pool, and you can fill jobs like that, that's when you can start looking at it as less intense, more like a 9 to 5, 9 to 6. But for the first year, year, 2 years, you're looking at probably in a normal world, 8 to 7, 8 to 8, in my opinion.

Interesting. And then talk to me about— so I feel like a lot of people can struggle when they make that transition from like candidate to doing more client work because a lot of people typically start with— obviously I started there where, yeah, you might deal with some clients, but it's existing clients. But most of the time you're speaking to candidates.

Yeah.

What's been your— it seems like, like you said, the pendulum has gone towards clients now and it's something that you're building more and more confidence with. If I'm listening to this and I'm sort of early on in my career, I'm maybe now starting to do more client work or be expected to do more business development, pick up my own clients. Like, obviously it seems like you're obviously on the other side of this now, obviously still on that journey, but you've obviously maybe worked through maybe some of those initial challenges, like What would you like? What's worked for you? What's helped you get better at that client side?

Definitely. No, very good question. Comes back. I keep on mentioning it, but that business perspective, right? You've got to understand these guys. You've got to immerse yourself in their space. But also, I think what's helped me is, let's say you're speaking— I'm just speaking hypothetically from the market now. You're speaking to an engineer. They're probably on about— they're probably more hands-on coding technical people. Go to speak to architects and managers first about a potential role. So speak to these guys as a candidate, understand their world, understand what they want and what their perspective is in terms of hiring. Say, look, you're, you're going to be in your next role, you're going to be hiring, and talk to them about this. And you'll naturally gain more confidence. You'll gain more confidence in speaking to these guys, and you can go on the next call and frame that up to a client when you cold call them, or when you speak to another client and flip them about a job. That's how I look at it. So start with the basics. You know, it's always hard going to cold BD, but that's just the world. So speak to senior people as candidates first, understand, and then you'll get more confidence when you go on that BD call because you already know from the people that you've spoken to in the past what they like, what they dislike, what their challenges are. And you can sort of tell them your challenge, tell them the challenges then. And they really respect that because you're going in as a trusted advisor rather than someone who's saying that to them.

Yeah, I love that. So actually, when you make that transition, it's a good spend of time to actually, instead of straight away trying to speak to hiring managers and clients about, yeah, hiring needs, going with that conversation, actually start your knowledge gathering and speaking to them from a candidate perspective. But obviously, yeah, that's BD time, obviously, because yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I know you always hear around flipping, flipping hiring managers into candidates and stuff like that, but actually Thinking back, that's a really smart way to just— yeah, I think it's what you're saying, is giving yourself an opportunity to find out about these people's worlds. And when you do have more of that information, then you can get better at framing the conversation when you are then going with, hey, we solve these typical types of problems. Like, is it worth having a conversation around your hiring needs when you are doing that BD stuff?

It's very smart, right? I think what you've got to do on that perspective as well, let's say you get a peep, let's say you're speaking to a senior candidate and you understand, you speak about the business. So you're speaking to an architect, for example, in my world, they're saying that they're understaffed, short-staffed, they use XYZ as a partner, like a KPMG or whoever it is. You can then go to that hiring manager that you know is their manager and say, look, I know this like project, I can add value here. I know a lot about what you're looking for. I've got a guy here who does XYZ. It's really building up the candidate side and then taking that to the clients. But that flipping back, I'll be honest with you, that's how I get every bit of my success in the market. You know, I'm not much, we're not much of a cold calling. We're very much flipping back, understanding the business, and then that's how we've resulted in massive accounts. Well, I have, sorry, I should say. Yeah.

Talk to me about, I guess, just before we finish, last couple of questions. So what about, so like you said, one of the things that really piqued your interest was like the potential of like earnings and stuff. Don't have to give me like the exact things, but like obviously sometimes people can be really like sort of wooed by this or like a lot of people want to know, can I actually earn 40 grand in my first year, whatever? Obviously you're 6 months in with Interex, right? But like, from, from what you've experienced so far, like, again, there's nuance here. Depends how hard you want to work, your market, all these types of things. But if I'm listening to this right now and I don't know, yeah, I'm looking at opportunities to get into recruitment, can see the basis, the basis around £20,000-£25,000 in between there, but the OTEs £50,000-£80,000 first year, £30,000. Like, what, from your experience so far, what would you say is like a realistic achievable number in that? First year that maybe you're aiming for, or just from the context that you've experienced so far, out of interest?

Yeah, I'm not aiming, you know, I'd love that 100 grand or anything, but it's very, very, very unlikely that's going to happen. You've got to look at that as year 2 and year 3. The first year is about building. I wouldn't even think about the money in the first year. I, I'm still not thinking—

I love that.

I don't— yeah, yeah, I'm not thinking about that right now. Build all your information, and then in the second year, let it explode. You know, build up your candidate spread and then just follow the process. The money will come, but just focus on doing the outcome first. It's a patient game, you know, especially in my world, the USA, it takes a lot longer to build up, but the fees are so bigger. So look at it now as focus, focus, focus, and in a year you'll be reaping the benefits. It's not all about the money. It's about if you enjoy your work as well. And that's exactly what I do. I'm not in this for the money. I love it. I love what I do.

Yeah, no, I love that. Fair enough. But realistically, what, what we're saying then, 35 grand, 40 grand, like what would you say to your mates? Like, I reckon if, if you do, if you work really hard, give it a crack, this is maybe what you might be able to earn, like realistically, in your opinion.

Yeah, well, for me, uh, for me, you're probably looking about 40, 45, and then the next year you can go on. But again, it depends on the market, right? You know, I'm doing—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, USA cloud, for example, big fees, but whether if you're in the UK, lower fees, but you can probably get in quicker. It really depends, but £40,000, I'd say.

Yeah, I'd say, yeah, I just wanted to get your thoughts on that, so thank you. So look, last few questions. Firstly then, I know I've sort of asked you this in a few different ways, but just to make this really practical, like top tips for success in the first 6-12 months of recruitment. What are they from you?

Good. I keep— I've said it a few times, right? But you immerse yourself in the environment. Don't think about the money, just think about sort of doing well, hitting your KPIs initially, because the rest of it, it sort of is like a bubble. It will follow on. Don't think— like me, I'll be honest. I was in my first company thinking, crap, where's the money? Where's the money? It's not about that. It's about building up, focusing on the process, and Keeping— how do I put it— just keeping humble as well. I think that's the, that's the main thing. Just always willing to learn. Um, because the thing is, when you're first in recruitment, you, you're not going to earn a lot of money. Let's be honest, very unlikely. So show your managers, show your bosses that you've got that extra layer, that commitment, that you will in a year. Because it is all a money game for bosses, right?

Yeah. And then final question, why Obviously, you always hear recruitment starts as a career, as an accident. Like, why do you think people should actually be considering recruitment as a career choice rather than an accident? From your point of view, you're unlocking other business needs, right?

You're not just putting people in a role that— if you're looking at it as that, as a game, that's the wrong game to be in. You've got to look at it as you're helping a business, you're actually providing value, and therefore relationships build, therefore you get more business, more money. It's a full cycle. I don't look at this as like a 1-year job like other people have. I look at this as a potential career, and stuff that you can do in recruitment is crazy. Not only in money, but building your own business, which should be everyone's goal. Um, and then from there, um, the success just follows. But it is a career, it's not just a 1-year gig like a lot of, a lot of graduates come in to do.

Yeah, I love that. Aman, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming, getting involved with this. Uh, I love— I just feel like that— I just feel like you're Yeah, just really committed to your career. I can sense just more and more confidence is building the way you're talking about things. So excited to see where you are in another year, 2 years' time on your recruitment journey. But thank you so much for coming on and getting involved. And I'm sure if anyone does have any questions or want to pick your brain or anything, that you'd be happy to help and connect with your LinkedIn.

Definitely. Please do. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Thank you.