Early on in recruitment series | Emily Stoker from Higher Group

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Welcome to another edition of the graduate entry-level focus podcast series where we interview people who are either early on in their recruitment career or recruiters who actively support people start their career in recruitment. And we're going to be finding out common challenges people have early on in their recruitment career, maybe what people would do differently, and also just talk about why we believe recruitment should become a career choice and not just an accident. So really excited to be joined by Emily today. And before we go into this, Emily, if you could introduce yourself for those that may not know who you are, and then we will get into the questions.

Yeah, thanks. So I'm Emily. I am the head of graduate recruitment at Hire Group. So essentially we're a rec2rec, but I specialize in getting entry-level candidates into recruitment. So that's something that I've been specialized in, um, my entire recruitment career. I've specialized in graduates.

So yeah, love it. And then for context, you graduated 2017? Yeah, right. Got into sales, it looks like.

Yeah, my third year at university.

And then obviously, um, and then obviously I got into recruitment. And then you've been in recruitment now for Yeah, nearly what, 4 to 5 years now, right?

Yeah, 4 and a bit. Yeah, exactly.

And you've always supported graduates.

Mm-hmm. Crazy. Okay.

All right, cool. So I'm excited to dive into this with you. So obviously why I was excited to speak to you on this podcast was obviously you're dealing with people all the time, every single day, who this sort of series is focused at. So I guess first thing I just want to speak to you about is What's your journey been like? Like, why did you end up in recruitment? Did you want to get into recruitment? And how would you describe your recruitment career so far?

So it's a weird one for me. Um, I've always kind of done sales. Um, I found out at quite a young age that I didn't know, I had this like natural knack for getting people to do what I told them. So in my third year of university, um, I went to university a little bit later actually, so I started when I was 21. Um, point I was living with an ex-boyfriend. I had to support myself, rent to pay. I wasn't in halls or anything like that. So I kind of worked all the way through university. And in my third year, I decided to go sell cars. I don't even like cars. I'm not really into cars, but I just heard that the money was good. So yeah, my third year, I was working 6 days a week at Arnold Clark selling Vauxhalls, and my day off would be like a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Vauxhalls?

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I still drive my Corsa. I get a lot of stick for that. I don't really care. It's cheap and it's economical. So yeah, on my day off, I'd go to university, finish up my degree. And then in March, I was like, I'm going to get the best graduate job. I'm quite competitive. I wanted to get the best job. I knew that people would be looking for their graduate jobs in, like, the June. And it came to March and I was like, I'm going to get ahead of the curve. I'm working full time as it is. I can prove I can balance it. And my best friend was in graduate recruitment at Celsius and she was like, oh, just come and have an interview with us, we get graduate jobs. So I went to that interview and they offered me the job and I didn't really know too much what recruitment was, to be in that kind of stereotype. But yeah, I just kind of started in recruitment whilst finishing off my dissertation. So that was quite stressful and absolutely loved it. Like, it's by far the best thing I've ever done. I think it's a great career path for grads. So I'm quite passionate about it, really.

Yeah, I love it. So why don't we— normally we end here, but let's start with this because we're talking about your journey and then we'll go into, I guess, common advice that you find yourself giving. We'll talk about how grads can stand out, how they can smash interviews for recruitment jobs, etc. But like, let's just start with that question then. Like, why? Obviously, having— you're still on the path now and you actively encourage people to start a career in recruitment now. So like, Why do you believe it is a good, like, career path for grads? Because obviously, as you know, typically it's always been told as an accident. I do feel like that is changing, but I think still most people would, like, find recruitment by accident or would fall into it. So, like, why do you believe recruitment should definitely be more of a career choice than just an accident?

I don't know, I think it's mental. Like, if you actually think about what we do, all you need is a phone, a laptop, and a certain skill set to make money. Like, I can't really name another sector that allows you to do that. And, you know, it's so entrepreneurial. Like, there's so many schools you can go into and you can kind of start your own businesses and stuff like that within 10 years, which most sectors you can't really do. I think you learn a really good kind of skill set and it's fun as well. Like, we come to work every day and we actually have a proper laugh. And the earning potential, the progression, like the amount of time and energy business owners invest into making sure that their business is the best place to work. I don't think you get that in other sectors. Um, and yeah, I just think a great career path is something that I'm really, really passionate about.

Um, so yeah, I think, I think what I find so like bizarre about the recruitment industry is like when you find yourself working in the industry, you're then like, how did I not know about this industry? Do you know what I mean? It's crazy.

I don't think it's talked about at universities. I don't think it's viewed as like a big prestigious route to go down. But if you look at the earning potential in recruitment compared to, I don't know, the Big Four or the ones that you're kind of trained to think is a good career path, I'd say it's pretty like on par, the money that you make in recruitment and, and the progression and the success that you can get. So I don't know why we're not educating these graduates or these people that this is a really, really good career path.

Yeah. So where else I'd love to sort of just take this really quickly and get your thoughts on. So obviously Like, we're talking about what you can get out of a career in recruitment, but obviously, what about— what are your thoughts on, like, the typical skills or experiences professionally or personally that you would expect grads to experience or get from recruitment that they probably least expected? Because they might be going into it like, right, I'm gonna, yeah, maybe experience earning more money, experience doing sales or whatever. But like, what are some of the typical things that maybe you've experienced yourself personally you least expected, or what grads could least expect that actually is a really positive thing?

I think it depends. I'm a strong believer that there's kind of a sector or a company for most people, like, as long as you're hardworking. So I think it would depend sector to sector, but for me personally, it's reading people. Like, someone might be telling you, "Oh, that's great," but I'm able to almost, like, whether they believe that or not. I'm sure a lot of recruiters will kind of relate to this, but it's kind of being able to read, like, between the lines of what people are saying and kind of Yeah, get kind of information out of people, which is not something that I thought I would be able to do, like fully understand people. I think the drive as well. I think the drive comes with if you love your job. So yes, I'm very, very driven, but I enjoy my work. So taking that call on an evening, I'll do. And I didn't know I had that drive in me. Does that make sense? Like, yeah, a waitress or whatever, you say, are you really driven? I'm like, no, not really. I don't want to work that extra hour, I want to go home. But in recruitment, because I think I love what I do, I've kind of found that drive within me and I can put the hours in and I can put the hard work in. So yeah, I'd say drive, reading people. I guess, yeah, it just depends on sector to sector because mine's very kind of telephone heavy, but other sectors might be kind of more email heavy or making matches or more intricate. So I do think it depends on sector to sector. But what I did find out about recruitment especially as a rec2rec, is that there are so many different companies and so many different sectors look for different skill sets. It's not just kind of a one-size-fits-all.

Yeah, no, what I love what you're saying there is that, obviously you're saying about being driven, but what you're really saying there is that it sort of, it can sort of, I guess, show people like what, like their full potential or like what they're fully capable of, right? If they're able to, like, that's just what for me, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I was like, I had job at like B&Q, like the Range, doing all this random shit. And then I started delivering pizzas for Domino's and then I ended up doing like getting a sales job where it was like commission only. And I was like, oh my God, I can actually be in a job where I can sort of hopefully make more money in line with like the work that I put in. And then like thinking of being in a job where like I could get paid the exact same as the person next to me and I could be trying 110% more than the person next to me, we get paid the same. I was like, why would I ever want to be involved? Why would I ever want to be in a job like that again? So I love that. So I guess the next part to this then, and then we'll go into sort of practical advice and common things that you see. I'm really keen to get your thoughts. Like, I'm sure obviously this is your world, but it seems to, from what I can see, recruitment agencies are really piling on now hiring for their own businesses because not everyone obviously, but a lot of markets are really busy. So most recruitment agencies would love the opportunity to grow their own talent, right, with no previous experience. So what, in your view, from a recruitment business point of view, if I'm hiring for my business and I want to attract the types of people that you work with, like, what is it that they actually want? I know there'll be intricacies and there'll be nuances to individual, but holistically, like What is it the grads of today or the entry-level talent today actually want from a recruitment business, from an employer? What are they actually motivated by? Is it the IB for incentives? Is it being able to afford the Rolex and show that off to their mates? Like, what actually is it that actually like really excites them, lights their eyes up, and actually they speak to you about like, this is why I wanna work for this company, this is what I feel like it's gonna give me?

I think for me, a lot of the grads I speak to really like the startup stuff. I think historically I speak startups and they're like, oh, you know, we're tiny, like how can we compete 'Can we compete with the big corporate businesses?' But actually, when you sit down and speak to graduates, they love that they can get in and make a difference and progress quicker. I think it all comes down to progression ultimately. But if you're a startup owner listening to this and you're thinking, 'I'm not going to be able to get the best talent,' I think you are. I think you could easily compete with some of the bigger companies. I think it's the bigger companies that need to work harder, not necessarily startups. So I think the startup vibe, the progression, 100%. The ability—

on that, sorry to butt in, sorry. Progression has been like the common thing that people said, but I just, I guess, keen to just, I guess, just try and peel back the onion a bit, like from your point of view, just on this, like what does that actually mean? Like when people say, Emily, I want progression, like what does that mean? Is it just people just want to feel like they're moving forward and they're not stagnating? Is it just because they don't want to feel bored in their role? Is it because they do want to manage people? Like what actually is it that excites them about progression out of interest? What does that look like to them?

I think when you're at university, this is probably relevant to grads, I guess, but when you're at university, you're told you go to university, finish university, and you get a graduate scheme. A graduate scheme basically means if you do X, Y, and Z, you know, you're going to get promotion and a pay rise, and you're constantly working towards that next thing, and you kind of got your path almost written out for you, I guess. And I find that as soon as I say to graduates, oh, you know, I've got this business in Didsbury, from day one on your desk, you'll have it set in front of you. If I do X, 'If I do X, Y, and Z, I'll get a promotion to this. If I do X, Y, and Z, I'll get a promotion to this.' I think it's having it so laid out, and it comes with management, it comes with this, it comes with that. I think everyone's different, and some people I do speak to want to manage people, and some people just want to make money, and some people like the idea of having a better job title they can tell their mum and dad about. Like, it's hard to kind of say, like, speak for all graduates, but what I can say is from experience, if I say to a candidate, 'From day one, you'll have this all laid out in front of you,' that sparks that interest straight away. I think it's fair. It's not like you've got, you know, you're somebody's favorite, so that's why you're getting that promotion or whatever. People like things to be kind of fair. Okay. So I think it depends candidate to candidate, but structuring it is definitely important and having smaller ones as well.

So I think what— so on, so again, just dive digging into this a bit deeper then. On the— I think a common thing, if I think of the small growing recruitment business where I started my career at, I wouldn't say that it was that very clear. And maybe this is something that you advise these startup growing recruitment businesses. And having interviewed a lot of business owners, I do feel like sometimes as a small growing recruitment business owner, you may feel like, one, sort of have that sort of doubt of like, why would people pick us over like a bigger company sort of thing? You might be thinking about that, which can then sometimes lead to not making the time to actually map out what career progression looks like, because you may have the mindset of, ah, we'll do that when we're a bit bigger, or we'll have a career development plan or a clear path for people when we've got 10 people, 15 people. So I guess I'm sort of leading the question here, but like, would, like, how important is it then to, like, for small growing recruitment business to actually just map that out and sort of, yeah, have a direct plan for people despite how big they are?

Crucial. Like, absolutely crucial. And I, when I go to like meetings, I often help them and sit down and map out with them, probably get them a pay grade, but I like to kind of help with that type of stuff. And I think with grads and entry-level people, it's having lots of little progressions, milestones, and yeah, yeah, yeah, just breaking that down instead of it being like, oh, in 3 years' time you're going to get a 10 grand pay rise. And it's like, well, that feels so far away and it's not competitive with the market because if you have someone sat on their 20k base for way too long, you get retorex other recruitment businesses being like, well, on our business you'd be on 25 or whatever. So yeah, kind of breaking that down and just keeping them motivated to the next step because it's also going to make them work harder for you. So it's going to keep you, but also it's going to motivate them to want to hit that next step and put their promotion on LinkedIn and tell their mum and dad. And that's going to bring them, I don't know, I think that you're likely to get people staying within your business and looking elsewhere if you do implement that. I think it's crucial.

Yeah, no, I love that. So before I butted in, sorry, you're saying progression. What else was you going to say? Sorry.

You mentioned the Ibiza thing. Yeah, it's rare that I get graduates calling me up and being like, "Emma, I want a free trip to Ibiza. What jobs have you got?" Like, that doesn't happen at all. And I don't think if you're a business owner that offers Ibiza, someone's going to come in and say, "I really want to go to Ibiza." But from my experience, when I was a grad, I'd never heard of a work holiday before. Like, that was so foreign to me, and that was a huge plus. It wasn't the fact that I got a free holiday. It was the fact that you kind of, you hear like really serious, important business people going abroad, and I kind of resonated with that and was like, oh, you know, I'm going to be really important. It's going really good job. And it's fun, and I think it's a good way for, you know, bonding and the team environment. So I do think it is important that you do implement them because everybody else—

Yeah, yeah. I think the reason why I say that, I know, I know it's like probably cliché, and I'm not— and like, I had some wicked trips, and I'm sure anyone listening to have got some great stories to tell. I think, I guess the reason why I say that is like, what I'm just trying to get from you, which you've shared with us, is like, that shouldn't be like what you're leading with. I feel like I feel like that should be like part of your arsenal, like why, what are the positives about working here. But I'm keen to find out what companies should be leading with that actually like resonates with young people and what they're excited about. And it seems like it's progression is the clear winner, but, and then actually, of course, you then need to think about the other benefits that you have. And are you offering great incentives and these things? But I think it's companies that think because they, they instead of going to Ibiza, they're going to Marbella, or because of they're going to these other places, that that's why they're going to get extra talent. And that's just, that's just not the truth, do you know what I mean?

No.

Yeah, so it's important. Yeah, agreed, for sure. So let's talk about, let's go into then, like, common things that you help grads with, or talking about now how we can really sort of help grads land their first job in recruitment, or like smash, um, their first year in recruitment, these types of things. So I guess first thing from your point of view, if I'm listening to this right now and I do want, like you did, you took the initiative to try and beat the rest of the pack of people applying, wanting to enter the industry. Like, what are your like top 1, 2, 3 things that you typically tell grads or would tell grads listening to this or people wanting to enter in the workforce this year to like stand out amongst the large amount of applications that jobs will be getting? Like, what can people do that listen to this to stand out amongst people who are also applying for the same jobs?

Oh God, there's so many. Um, so if you're talking about like your— what do you mean, like prepping your CV before you get to an interview?

Well, I would say, so if I— so I, I could just do it to drill it down a bit. I guess if you— if I was like your best mate and I was like, right, I mean, I want to get into recruitment, but I know I'm going to be like, I'm going to be applying for jobs online, that's my strategy. But I know when I click apply there's going to be like 100, 200 other people applying for that job. Like, what can I do to stand out?

So make a, you know, a really good CV that's relevant to what you're applying for. So if you're just applying for recruitment, fantastic. Research the skills that are needed in recruitment and target your CV accordingly. Make sure your personal statement at the beginning is highlighting the relevant skills that they're looking for, you know. And I get it, I would say about 30% of the applications we get is like, I want to be in marketing or I want to do this, and it's like, well, you've applied for—

Yeah, that's the first thing. Yeah, yeah, that's really, really cool.

Yeah, I feel like it does need to be highlighted. So yeah, make sure that you're— if you're applying for a job, that your CV is relevant, because I'm not going to call you if you're saying that you want a different job. Um, so yeah, um, interviewing is probably really, really important, especially in recruitment, because if you think about it, what do we do all day? We screen people, we talk to people, so it's actually really hard to— Go on.

I was just going to say, let's go into interview tips then. Yeah, instead, let's go into interview tips then for sure, because that'd be really helpful for people.

Yeah, so we screen people all day, we speak to people all day, so people kind of look at graduate jobs, they see hundreds of recruitment jobs come up and they think, oh, it's gonna be a really easy job to to get because there's so many of them, but it couldn't be further from the truth. Like, everyone's quite fussy. So there's loads really. I think the most important thing I get is be yourself, particularly with graduates. You come out of university, you think, I'm in the business world, I'm going to have to pretend to be this corporate robot, serious, and you'll just kind of do the same as everybody else. You're never going to stand out. It's just like, you just really, really be yourself and show your personality and make sure they're going to hire you for you and who you are and what you can bring to the table, not what everybody else can bring. Just don't be overly corporate and don't be a robot, essentially. I think that's really, really important. Have a laugh with them, like enjoy your interview. So yeah, I think questions as well. So there's some awful interview questions that I really, really don't like. That's personal preference.

As in people interviewing asking the interviewer questions, bad questions.

At the end of the interview, if someone says, you got any questions for me? Obviously the worst thing you could do is say no. Make sure— I tell my grads to prep over 10 questions for every interview they go to because you don't know, you might be interviewed by like 5 different people, and if you do, make sure you remember their names. Take a notepad and pen. If you've been interviewed by 5 people, make sure you've got their names written down because that's really important. But yeah, asking good questions and making sure you're prepping questions that you can ask every single person if you run out of questions. What advice do you have for me? How did you get into recruitment? Just show a bit of interest. And don't ask weak questions like, how much support am I going to get? You should be like, I want to be the best recruiter I can be. What's your training program like? It's essentially the same question, but it's just asked in a 10 times better way. Show ambition. Like, you're asking questions to show them what you're like as a person, not necessarily to get information. So like, who's your highest biller and what do they do differently? Is showing ambition, it's showing that you want to go in there and absolutely smash it. So think about the questions that you're going to ask and what they say about you, I think is important.

Love that. And then I guess just to get really practical again, and maybe you've just gone through them, but other, other maybe pet peeves you have or interview, like things to avoid when interviewing for recruitment jobs out of interest that you always make sure people avoid that, you know, typically doesn't resonate with people.

Yeah, there's a few things. A lot of people say, "I want to get into recruitment to help people." Now, I've been trained— so, some people might like that, but my first recruitment job was very, very old-school training, and we got told that, "No, that's not the question. That's not the answer that we're looking for because, you know, go work for a charity." Having worked in recruitment now, I think one of the reasons why I do work in recruitment is because I do genuinely help graduates and people get the job that they really, really wanted, and I do find it very rewarding. So there's a bit of a debate there. I don't know which side I'm on, if I'm completely honest.

I feel like, I feel like, I feel like it changes. I feel like if your lead reason why is I want to help people, that first year in recruitment is going to be extremely, even more difficult if your like lead reason why is I want to help people. Because when you're in that job doing it day to day, it does not feel like you're helping people or like, like you may feel like you are, but then you're getting rejection left, right and centre. People don't want to speak to you. And like, it's not— it's just not that strong. I just feel like it's not strong enough. Like, it needs to be accompanied with, I want to help people, and also whatever it may be, to get what I mean. But it can't be like the lead and the only thing. I feel like it would just— I understand why people may not like that, but I do feel like it does change over time. Like, you do get really— like, for me, once you do that first year and then you're like, oh my God, like, I'm like, I'm actually able to change people's lives. And that's proper cringy and cliché, but it's fucking true. Like, and like, that's what gets you really excited. And it's like, you know, I do want to help people, but you've had to work through that early period of like, I'm here because I've got a point to prove. I want to make good money, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But if you're leading with it, it's going to be, it's going to be hard. So I do get that.

Yeah.

So you don't, not leading with I want to help people, that may not resonate with everyone. What else do people need to avoid in these interviews?

Not to avoid, but me personally, I hate the question. I despise it. What's the best and worst thing about working here? You're a recruitment director. You don't want to have to tell them what the worst thing about your business is. Who wants to do that? I hate it. It's like my worst question ever. And what's the best thing about working here? Well, you know, you should come there wanting to work there. Do you know what I mean? Like, they shouldn't— I don't know. I just really don't like that question. Also, stupid thing like, oh, what happens if I don't hit my target? What happens if you work in an admin role and you quit doing work? You get sat, like, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, it's just like, it's how you're going to make that other person feel about you, like, feel about you already. Yeah, it's just those types of questions that you've all said, like, what support am I going to get? The way you're asking that is like, oh, what, so you're already concerned around not being able to— it's that. And then it's what you— and then it's what you just said. It's like, what happens if I don't hit my target? We don't really want to be leading with that. It's more, you want to ask, yeah, it's more about asking a similar question where it's more like, from what I understand, loads of recruitment businesses have had to adapt over the last 18 months. So what new things have you implemented over the last 18 months to make, I don't know, some, do you know what I mean? It's like, it's, yeah, it's just thinking about in a different way, isn't it?

Yeah. And then the last one that I despise, if they say, tell me a little bit about yourself, you're like, yeah, I'm Emily, I'm 28, I've got a dog, auntie, sister, brother, and you're talking for half an hour and you're thinking, no one actually cares. Like, they're just talking talking and talking and talking. So I try and tell my graduates to prep like a 30-second elevator pitch just to make sure that it starts off really, really strong. So, you know, absolutely, my name is Emily, I'm target-driven, money-motivated, worked in sales, love recruitment, that's why I'm here, and just rounding it back and keeping it relevant, opposed to going on and on and on and on and on. Because yeah, I've had it before when I've been screening a candidate, you know, tell me about yourself, and I'm literally like, you know, drinking my coffee.

That is a hard question though, isn't it? Because it's like, how much do they want to know? Where do I stop? Do I like tell them like about when I was a child? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's— I get what you mean. So it's good to think about how you would answer that.

Yeah, for sure. Perhaps like, that is like my first question I ask when I'm screening candidates, because I think you get a lot from that. Like, I'm not expecting everyone to come in on my first call and and do an elevator pitch, of course. But I think it's a really good question to ask just to see how they cope. It's kind of a little bit of pressure at the same time, isn't it?

So, yeah, sure.

Okay.

So what— so we've spoken about interview tips, things to avoid, how people can stand out. What about then a couple of last questions? So one, I'm interested to hear your opinion on, as you said, there's loads of different markets and sectors out there. And this is where I guess a lot of your expertise can come in when speaking to people. You may have a better idea of like what type of sector could potentially be great for them with what they've shared with you. So like, how can people, like when you start considering recruitment as a career, it can be really daunting about like, okay, well, what market am I going to recruit in? Or like, should I go down the path of like doing recruiting something I enjoy or whatever? Like, what's your advice on like, if I'm going, Emily, like I do want to get into recruitment, but I'm actually unsure of what market I want to get into, like, what advice do you have there?

So I look a lot at— it's kind of different on personality to personality. So if somebody is like, I don't know, super, super chatty, a bit off their head, a bit like me, then I think like a pacey market or something like that where you are on the phone. And if their strength is just kind of being on the phone, then I think more of like a pacey market. Like, I think I'd be great in construction, you know what I mean? Something like that, as opposed to like I'd be terrible in like headhunting or something that's really, really intricate. I think it's hard. It takes, I don't know, a lot of time and a lot of knowledge and a lot of understanding your clients. And I think if you're a grad, I'm not just saying this to get placements, but you should definitely use a rec2rec because there's so many businesses in Manchester. Don't apply for a recruitment business and hope it's going to be right because the chances are that it's not. Academics as well, if somebody's super, super smart and kind of you know, research heavy and stuff like that, then yeah, more of a headhunt, like, intricate market might suit them. So it just depends. So it's really, really hard to say, but I would honestly recommend using a rec2rec or somebody who can match you to certain businesses because you might keep putting yourself into the wrong business and getting rejected. You could end up going away and be like, oh, recruitment's not for me, but actually you've been going in the complete wrong direction. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know it's quite hard. I know there's a lot of intricacies and things, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's fair. I guess maybe if I don't— if I'm listening to this and I don't end up speaking to someone like you, it's being mindful of when you do speak to them, when you do interview places and you're meeting people and you're finding out about the way they do things, like be mindful of if that's gonna— if you feel like that could— yeah, is in line with how you want to work or how you see yourself can best perform and stuff like that. But I know it's hard. It's not— it's a real— yeah.

It's crazy. Like, so we've got a few different departments, like, in our business, just in rep to rep. So we've got, like, director-level stuff in London, and it's crazy that my job and their job comes under the same umbrella in recruitment because I'm always on the phone, they're never on the phone, they're in front of the computer writing emails, doing matches and stuff like that. And it's such different skills, and that them on that team are completely different to who I am on my team. It's just, it blows my mind that that all stuff falls Recruitment.

Yeah, it all falls under it. Yeah, I got you, man. So a couple of last things. So what I want to ask you now before I ask you the final question is, from your point of view, thinking of some of the, like, the great people that you've been involved in, in helping, supporting, like, obviously, as I'm sure you describe it or communicate in some way that, like, that first year recruitment is, like, really difficult, like, what common traits or What characteristics do you see in grads that you place or support that you find do really well in that first year or have the best chance of smashing it? Just thinking about what people need to have in mind going into that first year, like, are these people, um, people that you find to be really responsible and take their own development seriously? I don't know, like, what comes up for you when we think of traits and characteristics that great grads have or entry-level talent have to do well in that first year?

I get asked this all the time. It's really, really difficult. So it's hard to quantify. Like, sometimes you'll get that candidate and it's like you just know. Does that make sense? When you know, you know. But that's obviously not for you. One of the first things I look for, because a lot of my roles aren't them intricate headhunting roles, I've got one or two, but predominantly like tech, engineering, like all your kind of usual recruiting businesses. The first thing I look for is, can I sit on the phone to you for an hour? I'm not going to, But could I sit on the phone to you for an hour and it not be awkward and we have a great conversation? And that's something that I kind of look for. Also likability. So business development and getting candidates on aren't— that isn't going to be that hard if you're really, really likable and if you kind of instantly warm to that person. I think likability is really, really important. There's not really many tangibles on a CV because there's so much good stuff. It's not really a one-size-fits-all, but I always kind of ask the question, you know, what are your personal goals? But I think a good one about your personal goals is to ask what personal goal have you had in the past that you've achieved and how did you do that? Because like, if you want something, are you willing to go after it and work hard for it? And I think that's an important thing to look for. And just kind of any kind of signs on their CV or their experience where they have had to really work hard for something. So it's really people, but I think personality is definitely the biggest thing that I go— I look for. Um, if you've got a great personality and people instantly warm to you, then that's going to make your life in recruitment a lot easier than—

easier.

Yeah.

All right, so I just want some like final honest like market insights from you, basically, if that's okay. So just for context, so you, you do what, what, um, what part of the country do you cover?

Manchester, South Manchester.

Possibly, yeah. But you also, you might have an idea for your peers on the other thing. So what I just want to know for you to finish this off then, so if I'm listening to this, I'm a grad or maybe coming into recruitment for the first year, like one, I know there'll be a lot of intricacies there, but holistically, like what is, like what salary should I expect? Like starting salary, what entry-level starting salary should I expect?

In Manchester, 2022. 2022?

Okay, realistic first year OTE?

33, depending on the company. It really does. Yeah, I got— I did 33.

Okay, so a little bit like maybe 30k to 35. 35.

I've got some bits, okay, but you'll generally will do like 50, but you're gonna have to work really, really hard.

Really hard. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Cool. Thank you for the honesty. And then the other thing, and then I know this will be really varied, but again, just like honest thoughts, like commission structures, like what we talking, like what, what. So basically, I guess what, what would you say would be like if you were to speak to someone on the phone and they told you what their commission structure was and you're like, oh, I think that's like really like quite out of whack with like, like what you should be getting. Like what's like a bad commission structure, would you say?

Oh well, I'd say that.

Yeah, come on.

Okay, so the first— when I was in recruitment, my first job, I didn't realize how bad it was until I moved to Higher Group.

Yeah, this advice is important.

Yeah, so like I got £135 a placement, um, and then how long until— throughout my career, um, oh wow, 2 years. Yeah, um, and they were like, yeah, Quite a fairly big place, obviously it's grads, but still fairly big.

Well, and they're like 360 deals, so like you got the client on and placed and you got £135 quid?

No, but I did, so kind of, some of them I did. So I did 180, then 180, but either side. So I started off as the talent and then moved over. Yeah. And so I'd either bring the client on and then the other side would place or vice versa, but either, both sides would get £130.

Oh my God.

And that would be a £7.5 grand deal or whatever it would be. So yeah, that wasn't ideal.

So if you're getting some sort of like, because if you're getting some sort of per placement and it's like £100, £200, I guess it depends how long, how long. Yeah. Like, yeah, you need to like check that. But I guess it depends like if that's like just until, I don't know, I feel like I'm trying to think what I had. I feel like I had something like that, but very quickly it then changed. It was like just at the start, I don't know.

Yeah. At the start, like if somebody's put all the legwork in and got the clients and kind of wrote the ad and done all the work and you just have to call people up and get them in for the first 3 months and then you change on to the proper commission structure, that's fine. But I'm talking, I'd had 3 promotions and I was still on that.

Yeah, yeah, that's terrible.

I think percentages, nothing below 10%. If you're on like a 5 up to 10% commission structure, get out. You know, a lot of our businesses, I've got one business that goes up to 50%. Yeah.

How common are thresholds?

I have one.

Yeah.

Um, so fairly common.

Yeah, I was just curious.

Yeah, no, I have— I didn't mind it. It depends on how well you build, but I appreciate why people do it. And yeah, it's not a massive one. I think if your threshold is above— I don't know, I don't know how to say this.

Yeah, of course.

This is—

we're just talking— you're not saying that companies have this, we're just saying— you're just saying what you find. And like, you, you're in the perfect position to like just have an honest view of like, this is subjective, this is your view, but some people will have no idea, like, if their commission structure is any good. That's why this is important.

If you're on a basic salary of below 30K, should we say, and your threshold is above 6K, 6 or above, I think, you know, you could probably do that.

It could be better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think mine was like 3.5. Yeah, it always stayed like that.

Yeah, like that. So obviously it is salary dependent, but yeah, I think look at your commission structures, have conversations with people just to know, because I didn't know when I sat in that role.

That's what I mean. And I feel like most decent recruitment companies would want to improve that, but they may have no idea on like what good looks like. So like, because I had someone message me the other day actually saying like, we want to improve our commission structure and we have no idea, and you feel like you could be in a good position to like talk about this. And I was like, honestly, I don't know. But like, I was like, tell me what yours is and I'll probably have a good grasp of like if it's rubbish or not. Yeah, I think, I think what you messaged me, I was like, yeah, you definitely, you definitely need to have a look at that. I think it was like a threshold of like maybe 5, 6 grand or something. And then like it was 10% like on everything. Like even if you had like a 40 grand month, it'd be 10% of that. And I was like, no, that can't be right.

That's awful. It's weird though, because when you're speaking to grads, I rarely get asked about commission structures. Obviously, I would educate them and I would say, you know, this is a good one, or, you know, out of the 3 options I've got you, that's got commission structure for this job. I mean, I will always do that, but I think for graduates coming in, even to achieve that £30k in your first year, it just feels so far away. And that commission structure, yeah, yeah, very on the forefront of their mind. Like, again, I'm not speaking for everybody, it's just through my experience, but it's other stuff that they want to buy into. It's the working environment, it's the progression, it's surrounded by other people like similar kind of demographic as them, um, and stuff like that. That's really, really—

but you don't— I guess the reason why I was interested to get your thoughts is because you don't want to be in that position where like you end up doing 2 years in recruitment and you do really enjoy the company, but you end up getting some recruitment mates and you realize that your commission, like, you could have earned like just a lot more, or Do you know what I mean? I think that's why I wanted to ask you, like, what actually good looks like from your point of view, because I think, yeah, you don't want to be in that position where you're like, oh wow, wow, I could have actually done even better, even though I really like working here.

Yeah, no, for sure. I think it is important and try and have conversations. I don't want to abuse this, like, oh, selling rec to recs, but honestly, like, if you're in recruitment in the Anglosphere—

huge value that you can add, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, have a conversation. And then also, if you're hiring people, make sure that you're explaining really simply what the job is and what recruitment is. I don't know if we've touched on this, but that's really, really important, is make sure that you're educating your entry-level staff on what recruitment is and what the job entails, because I think that's a huge misconception.

We've covered a lot. Thank you so much for being part of this series. I really appreciate it. I know this has been slightly different from the other ones, but I think just loads of value in here and insight for business owners, people wanting to hire graduate talent, but, and then also on the other side as well. So Emily, thank you so much for joining me.

Thanks so much for having me.