Early on in recruitment series | George Cohen - How to cultivate resilience

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and I'm really excited to be joined by George today. And this is another installment of our short series that we're doing called Early On in Recruitment, where basically I'm sitting down with recruiters that are early on in their career. We're talking the first 12-18 months, and we're finding out what have been some of their biggest challenges, what have they learned along the way so far, advice that they can share with us that could be helpful for people that are still early on in their career, and also to talk about why we believe more people should be choosing a career in recruitment. So George, thank you for joining me.

Thanks for having me, Hishem Azzouz.

And look, where, where we're going to start with all of these, uh, is just to find out How has recruitment compared to what you expected, George? Talk to me about that.

Um, so to be honest, I didn't really know what to expect. I feel like, like most recruiters, I sort of just fell into the career, didn't really know what to do with my life or what to expect after finishing off at uni. Um, I knew that it involved helping other people get jobs, uh, and it sounded like a pretty simplistic career, um, but obviously in terms of that, I couldn't be more wrong.

So You expected it to be simple, speak to people that want jobs. How has it actually been? How would you describe it now?

So, I mean, it's probably slightly more high stress than I thought it would be. There's a lot, there's a lot going on, lots of things to learn and lots of things to remember. The training that I had was pretty quick and it was obviously really, really efficient. So I was able to get onto the job quicker probably than I thought I would be. But yeah, I mean, overall I'm enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would. I'm working a lot harder than I sort of ever have previously. So yeah, I mean, overall it's definitely a really positive thing for me. Sort of wish I did it straight after uni rather than doing anything in between.

So, okay, so with that then, if you're— if we're in a pub right now and you're surrounded by people that might have just graduated, people that are looking for their first job, How would you describe recruiting to them?

Lots of, lots of negotiation, lots of trying to understand people on maybe a slightly deeper level than if you would just be having a casual conversation with someone. It's about understanding people's driving factors and underlying motivations. Handling objections is a big part of it, of course, like, and you learn pretty early on that the first time someone says they're they're not interested in working with you and they give you a reason, it's not necessarily the real reason. So I guess it's about sort of digging up people's true reasons and real natures of what they're looking for.

Okay, so I always like asking this question: what skills or experience has recruitment given you so far that maybe you least expected? It sounds like you didn't have any major expectations, but yeah, what has it maybe given you that you've been surprised by?

Yeah, I guess like I say, understanding people, Some people call it social engineering. It's something I'm really interested in. So I've sort of just finished a book, uh, by a top FBI negotiator, uh, discussing about, uh, of course, negotiation. Yeah, that's the one.

Yeah, Never Split the Difference. You have to read the book if you're listening.

Honestly, I would recommend that to anyone starting out in recruitment, or even later in your journey in recruitment.

It's a nice—

exactly. Yeah, I mean, and that's another thing, um, recruitment I feel like has allowed me to develop into a version of myself that I wouldn't necessarily have been able to activate if it wasn't for this job. I mean, these are skills you do on the job, right? But they're applicable to pretty much any sort of social interaction you might have, whether it's like you said in the pub or whether it's something a bit more serious. And yeah, just anything. Everything's so applicable and it's definitely helped me a lot in areas outside of work as well.

So let's just talk about that for a second because this honestly came out in the last series, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'll ask you a question. Your friends, family, would they— do you think they would describe you as someone after, like, with your 9 or so months in recruitment, do you think they would describe George as someone that's more confident after like 9 months?

Yeah, I think, I think definitely. Um, I've never really had too much of an issue with confidence or meeting new people, um, which I think has actually helped me a lot with the job. But definitely I've seen improvements within myself and I like to think that family and friends would have noticed improvements as well in terms of this sort of stuff. Yeah, no, I'm definitely, definitely more confident, more able to sort of speak to anyone without any sort of former interaction. But yeah, I mean, so physical cold calls seem a lot easier, I guess, is one way to put it.

Yeah, sure. No, thanks for sharing that. I just find that interesting. A lot of people share that it's actually, yeah, there was someone that was maybe a bit confident or didn't have as much confidence going in, but since they've been on this journey, it's given them the confidence to communicate, confidence to build relationships, speak to people. And yeah, that's such a positive, uh, that can have such a positive impact on your life as a whole, not just in a work context. So I was curious to ask that. Yeah, so I'm sure you would have heard it, but a very common sentence that people typically hear is like the first year in recruitment can be the toughest. So let's dive into like the, the hard parts of this journey so far, right? Because you're, you're like 9 months in, right? So you are in the thick of this, this journey, getting to that first year mark, which is really exciting. So talk to me about, I guess, what has been the sort of lowest low so far. Like, recruitment's a roller coaster. That's what this podcast used to be called because I experienced that firsthand. So like, talk to us about your lowest day so far, and we can then talk about what you learned from it or how you got through it.

Yeah, so I mean, I, I had maybe a slightly different, um, initial path into recruitment in my first year, so I was sort of lucky enough to have quite a quick rise to success. This is mainly down to the mentors I've had along the way, my team leader, um, the training I received, as I mentioned before. But yeah, I found success quite quickly. And my first few months were easier probably than some other people around me who also work incredibly hard. So I was, I was going to a point where I was averaging about 3 deals a month.

Wow.

Pretty early on. And then suddenly everything went wrong. So I had a dropout. And then one manager of a role I'd been working really hard at decided they were going to have a hiring freeze with no notice. And another one I was doing the same sort of work rate on, They filled the role internally with, again, no notice. And then, so I think it was a bit harder as well because I got really psyched up to have my best, my best month yet. And obviously it then turned out to be my worst. And although in comparison with a lot of people it wouldn't be such an awful month, I just feel like because I was, everything was going so well and I was really feeling the sort of skyrocket to success and then it just got completely blocked. It was quite tough. What I did was I took a few days off to reflect and process everything. And that doesn't mean go down the pub with the boys. It's more just sort of sit and take some time, listen to my Chris Voss audiobook, and yeah, and like just sort of walk the dog and just think about what I could have done better, why it's important to sort of taper the expectations a bit, if that makes sense. And I do this thing where when I struggle with things, I sort of like to think about all the other difficulties I've overcome previously. So I think, okay, this is hard, but what else have I done that's hard and got through X, Y, and Z? And then I sort of think, okay, in comparison, this isn't that bad. This isn't that bad. And if I've overcome that stuff previously, then why am I worried about this? And then also it sort of reminds me how strong I am able to be, even if I sort of forget that in a difficult time. And that's again something I encourage other people to do as well.

I love that. So talk to us about— feel free to get specific here because I think it'd be helpful for people— but maybe when that happened and you made that space to reflect, which I absolutely love, by the way, what were like the 1 to 3 key things that you sort of walked away with from that space that you gave yourself on? Like, right, I felt like I could have done this better, or next time I'm going to make sure I do this. Like, what were like the 1 or 3 key takeaways that you you took from that space of reflecting on that period?

It was reminding myself that it is a roller coaster rather than just a skyrocket type of career pathway. So it sort of reminded me that I need to stay a bit grounded, obviously not be cocky about it. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm a cocky person, but I reminded myself that, okay, George, it's not always going to go this way.

It humbled you.

Yeah, exactly. 100%. It humbled me. I guess that's the best way to put it. Yeah, it made me more sort of inquisitive into managers' processes so I can sort of try and notice these signs of when things might go on earlier and then sort of notice when things are going to go wrong and then act accordingly about it.

Yeah, I think at the beginning I definitely was— I think I'm sure you may have sort of reflected on this or found yourself doing this, but when you're early on, you can you're just looking for the yeses and you're looking for the reasons why things are going to work, right? So yeah, I'm not surprised that that came out. So you've learned that. So maybe there might have been moments when that client was speaking to you that you could have gone, ah, that's interesting. You know, you said that you met that person, like how far has that gone internally, right? And there's, but you maybe didn't want to ask that question because that would have meant that your process would stop and that will potentially ruin your best ever month, right?

Yeah, exactly. Everything's rose-colored glasses when nothing's gone wrong at that point. So it was important, and I'm glad it happened in hindsight, um, because it reminded me that I need to really be more sort of, uh, aware of these sort of things that can go wrong and look for the nos rather than look for the yeses.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But best piece of advice, one of the best pieces of advice I got early on was like, ask a question that you don't know the answer to. That's because at the beginning you don't want to do that, right? So, okay, cool. Thank you for sharing that. So Talk to us about— let's sort of turn this into a positive then, even though we just did. But like, talk to me about what's been sort of your most memorable day so far.

I mean, that's a bit of a hard one. I mean, I've had a lot of memorable times. I work with so many truly inspiring people. Like, I'm sort of surrounded by people who motivate me to be the best version of myself and If I ever feel a bit tired or feel like, oh, what's the point? I sort of look around and I'm like, these people are just not quitting and this is what I need to be like. I mean, recently we had our work summer party and this was just after I had my best week in recruitment ever. So I managed to, it was, some of it was quite lucky. I can't put it all down to hard work, but I managed to close 3 deals in a week and the total value, the estimated total deal value was around €150K. So when I got to the summer party, I was sort of just getting so much love and support from everyone. And I've kind of never feel— I'm not trying to get too emotional here, right? But I've never felt so valued in anything I've done. And I mean, there were new people who had just started pulling me aside saying, oh mate, what's the trick to success? How have you managed to do it? I want to have the same route as you. And it just sort of felt incredible. Like I've never been that guy in anything before this job. So it sort of reinforced the fact that recruitment has truly allowed me to become the best version of myself and also a version that I actually didn't really believe was possible in myself, to be completely honest.

Yeah, that's amazing, George. Thanks for sharing that. So I'm assuming here, like, are you in contract?

Yeah, I do contract.

So look, I'd be stupid not to ask you, George, but when people ask you that internally, what's the response? That's what people want to know. How can people listening— they want to get their runners up quickly, they want to have this success quickly. What was you responding to people when they were going, George, I want to sort of get to the position you are in, or what has been the secret? What did you share with them?

So for every— everyone has their own sort of flair or their own sort of thing that makes them a bit more niche or a bit more unique, right? But for me, I think there's one thing that everyone has that's undeniable, and I'm sure you know what I'm about to say. You got to work seriously hard and sort of just really embrace the grind. Without sounding too cringy. I mean, you've got to just take it as it comes and just really, really go for it. And then also, I think, be innovative. So one thing that I try and do is always do things that no one else is doing, or very limited people are doing. Like, I mean, there's obviously work smart and work hard, but I think it's the combination of the two. So work incredibly hard and never stop trying and never give up and always be resilient, but also calling through And I mean, there's a time and a place for it, right? I'm not saying never do it, but calling through lists and lists and lists that you have on a CRM won't necessarily net you the same amount of success as spending maybe a quarter or a third of your time thinking about things and just observing and seeing what people aren't doing, and then going after routes to success that no one else is doing, or only minimal people are doing.

Love that mindset. I'd be stupid again not to follow up. Yeah, give me an example, one of those things that maybe you think you did differently or wasn't on the radar of other people that ended up sort of playing out for you. I'm curious.

Um, so I guess that I use different introductions to get in touch with managers than other people. I think the idea of sending spec CVs on email and just keeping your fingers crossed is, uh, I mean, it works for some people and it works if you do a lot But I think I tried to make it more tailored. So you've gotta go after managers who are hiring for a specific skillset that you know a bit about, and you've got some market insights relating to that, or maybe even trying to pull some roles for engineering managers and heads of technology in companies so that you can sort of speak to them about a role that interests them. And obviously do it in a sort of real way. Exactly, yeah, a reverse headhunt. I mean, I try and do it in a real way with a real role, but, uh, just doing anything that will give you a leg up and sort of make managers think, oh, I remember that guy, like, in a way that other people don't. Maybe video intros as well. I like to try and do video intros to managers rather than just send them a message and an ad on LinkedIn.

Nice. Yeah, look, I think what I take there is like, yeah, just be open-minded and try different things. Don't be complacent and don't be like, oh, everyone else is doing it this way, so I'm only gonna do it this way. Like, Yeah, that's brilliant.

So I'd almost say even the opposite of that. If you see everyone's doing it one way, then you're not gonna— I mean, you're gonna have to be working 2 or 3 times as hard as anyone else to be able to stand out in that way. So it's almost if everyone's doing it one way, that should almost be not a turn-off to doing it that way. But I mean, it's just, it's an eye-opener, right? So yeah.

So what did you learn then in your first 6 months that you wish you'd known from day one?

Probably a few, few different things. I guess again, the idea of social engineering and negotiation, understanding people is really important. Maybe the value of hard work, um, and then also, uh, knowing that it's not always going to be easy. I wish I sort of knew earlier on that there will be harder times, and then I wouldn't have taken it for granted as much that I was lucky enough to have a quick success rate.

Originally. So let's talk about this, because you mentioned this a few times, like about the, the challenge and everything, right? I know you really wanted to talk a bit about resilience, right? And, and it is a word that obviously in the recruitment industry gets chucked around really easily. So I guess firstly, few things here that I just want to get your thoughts on. Firstly, like, what, what does resilience mean to you? I'm sure you've, you've may even said people to now, like, you have to be resilient, or like, yeah, resilience is important. But like, what, what does resilience mean to you, George?

Yeah, I mean, so it's, it's a staple of the job. I think I've, I started with, um, I think it was 6 or 7 other people, uh, in my group. Um, all of them have now left other than me in that group. Um, and I think a key part of that, or a key reason, is because things go wrong for people and they don't, or they haven't necessarily developed that mindset of bouncing back from it. So I guess for me it's about having a certain mindset that means when things go wrong you can sort of say, okay, cool, that's gone wrong, it's not ideal, but I'm going to keep working. And every, every time someone says no, it takes you closer to a yes.

And like, so you said obviously a number of people will start at the same time, aren't there? What, like, how have you got better? How have you sort of developed or worked on that bounce-back muscle? How have you— you said that obviously earlier you took some time out to reflect, but what do you feel, do you do maybe on a daily, weekly, consistent basis that helps you be build that muscle? Because yeah, it's something that, yeah, you have to build over time, right? And continue to work on.

Yeah, exactly. It's like about building a mindset and training. Yeah, like you said, training that muscle of resilience. And I guess it's changing my outset somewhat. Someone said to me in a training session that there's two ways to think about this job. You can either think of it as an obligation that like, oh, I've got to get up at whatever time, 6:30, 7 in the morning, go work an 8 or 9 hour day come back, put in a couple of extra hours because I really want it, um, and then go to bed and do it all again. And people think of it as an obligation, whereas you've got to flip the mindset and think of it as an opportunity, where it's like, I've now got the opportunity to, uh, have financial freedom probably much more quickly than most other careers that are out there that don't require years and years of training, like being a doctor or a lawyer or anything like that. Um, and then also it's thinking about the reasons why you do things. I mean, it's like you can think of stuff as, I should do that, I should make an extra call, I should work an extra hour, I should really try a bit harder at sourcing this role. And a lot of people have the mindset of, I should do that, and then that's where it stops. But it's about switching that to thinking, I need to do that. And it's like, if I'm going to be successful, there's no point thinking I should do that. It's that I need to do that, so I'm going to make it happen.

Seems like you've really— I love that you've really bought into like cult event in your mindset.

Yeah, it's like, it's one of the things I pride myself on, and I've really sort of since starting this job become kind of obsessed with that whole sort of, uh, upgrade in the mindset thing.

Personal development, improvement. I love it. But what I also take from that, and this is going to be a theme, I just know it, is you've taken accountability and responsibility for that. It's not— yeah, it's not like you're relying on other things, or— yeah, like you've taken responsibility for that.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, if If things are going wrong, I mean, if things are going right, you don't want to say, oh, things are going right for me because of someone else. You want to say things are going right for me because I've worked hard. So it's the same way of if things are going wrong, you've got to think about things have gone wrong because I didn't do enough. I didn't probe around the objections enough, or I didn't look out for these negative signs. It's like things go right, it's because of you. But then in the same way, the only way to really enjoy that and really feel that way is when things go wrong, it's you as well, and embracing that mindset.

Yeah, some people aren't willing to do that, so that's what I wanted to point out. So just look, I'm just curious, like, if you're— I don't know how you, how you feel about this or what you have to share, but I just wanted to ask you, like, with you going on this journey then of this, of this, like, my— of you being on this mindset, really buying into that, how is that, like, how have you found, have you found, like, you being different to your friends? That's a bit of a weird question, but like, I guess what I'm trying to say is this. I think I look from the conversations I have, as you, as you grow older, like, your friends change and these things. And I think sometimes it can be really challenging for people where people might be listening to this and they've really bought into recruitment, they've really invested themselves, and then they— their friendship group is still people that are like— and there's no judgment here— but people that aren't on that wavelength. Have you found that? And have you had to deal with that? I don't know, I just thought I'd ask that. I was just curious, it might be useful for people. I don't I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, people aren't— I mean, a lot of my friends are in quite high stressful jobs where there is opportunity to be successful. But I mean, it's— you're always going to get that sort of pushback from people who say, like, why are you still working? Let's go pub, or like just something like that, or just general sort of things that aren't going to contribute to success. I mean, that's obviously the easy path. So that's the thing that the majority of people are doing. So I mean, as much as it's important to, if you're working hard, to enjoy yourself at the same time, and if you're experiencing sort of financial freedom, then do things with it that make you happy and reward yourself for hard work. But at the same time, you've got to put that hard work in. So in general, I think I have had times when sometimes my friends or people aren't as happy with me as they could be because I'm sort of thinking I need to— they're like, oh, you could just work from home today. I'm like, no, because I'm more productive in the office. So I'm not going to work from home and get to the pub for half 5. I'm going to go to the office. And if I get there at 7, I get there at 7. Or if I don't come because I've got other stuff to do, then I don't come because my success sort of has to come before everything else. And like you said, it's a maturity thing. And it's not that any of my friends are immature. Obviously, it's going public. I wouldn't want to badmouth anyone.

No, no, I wasn't asking because of that. I was just— you've been honest there. I appreciate that. I think it can be an interesting part of life, right? Where like you're clearly like really committed to maximizing this opportunity that you've got. And sometimes you can— like, this is all part of it, right? Read any personal development book, they're going to tell you the average of however many people you're with, right? So I just thought I'd ask you because I think sometimes this can be an interesting challenge for people as they go through life where they find themselves that actually the friends that they originally had don't end up having the same aspirations. And that can be sometimes difficult.

Definitely, definitely. And I mean, it's a case of I think some people have this— some people are happy with going to a job, checking in, working 8 hours, checking out, and then you're just chilling for the evening and you're relaxing on the weekend. And that's fine, like, if you— that's fine, yeah, of course, not a problem at all. But some people, I think, have sort of more of an inbuilt drive, whether it's from— it could be from anything. But, uh, some people have an inbuilt drive to be the best that they can possibly be and the best version of themselves. And I definitely, if I'm not being the best version of myself, I don't feel satisfied, and it does sort of bother me a bit. So it's like, yeah, if you do have that mindset, then it's a great career to get into.

So how— look, you, you've really, you've really sort of been honest here around like your commitment, work ethic. So I had this question from a number of people, like, I wanted to ask you. So how, how have you sort of handled your work-life balance? How have you gone about handling that? Do you feel like you've got a good grasp of that? Do you feel like you've you're happy leaning more into work? Like, how have you handled that so far?

Yeah, I mean, at this stage I'm definitely happier leaning more into work. I have a lot more of a purpose. And yeah, I mean, it's different because I sort of went from uni to a job where it was fully remote work, as much or as little as you want, sort of basic data entry type stuff. And it was the sort of thing you could do while you're watching Netflix in the background. So it was just sort of a case of if I want to work 4 hours of the day, I can. If I want to work an hour, if I don't want to do anything, I don't have to. So like getting into something that has a more strict regime, um, not in a negative way, like it's got a more strict regime of you've got these hours to work each week. Yeah, you can work from home these days, but these days it is something that was a big challenge early on because of course at uni it's a case of like you want to miss your 9 AM lecture, no worries, you can probably watch it back online. Like, you want to like watch it the next week because you're going out that week, cool. But yeah, I mean, it's been a big change, but I think I have adapted to it. I mean, I'm lucky enough that I've got a great working environment. A lot of the people I work with do go out and socialize a lot. We've got a lot of work events and sort of nights out we do. But yeah, I mean, I'm a strong believer of when it is time to put in a serious shift, then you might as well do it properly. It's the old cliché: if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well. So when it is work time, it is work time. Like, I'm not going to be distracted by anything.

Love it. So look, you've mentioned training a couple of times. Yeah, I wanted to make sure I asked this because you've shared that. What, what do you think the sort of best training advice or piece of advice from training that you've received sort of so far that you feel like has really worked for you since sort of going on this journey?

So, I mean, there's a lot of things, there's a lot of things, but I mean, I would say know your market, whatever market you're in, make sure you understand the ins and outs. And people will tell you things, and it's very easy to sort of know a few definitions of the market, but it's important to sort of delve a bit deeper and ask those questions that other people aren't asking. Like I said, I'll keep going back to do things that other people aren't doing. So if they're telling you a lot of things, or you've got a lot of information to take in from people training you, I would say still learn everything, be a sponge, but then also go back after and ask further questions. Just make sure you really understand everything you're learning. And if there is anything you're even remotely not 100% sure about, then I would say get clarity on it. Anyone, any good trainer will always be happy to help people who are willing to sort of go above and beyond in terms of learning.

So know your market. Anything specific about— anything specific around like growing your contract book, winning clients, getting with projects, like anything specific around that that has really played out for you that's come from training, do you think?

Um, yeah, lots of smaller things.

Um, so people want the smaller things, George. These are the things that people love. So don't— you may think it's not a big deal or it's not that thing, but actually It might be for a lot of people. That's why I asked.

Oh yeah, no, it's fair enough. Makes complete sense. I mean, I'd say write things down. So I've got a whole folder on my work computer of different BD notes and documents I've made just sort of over spare time or whatever. So I know, for example, like when I've got a manager call, I've got one document I open every time where it tells me all my ways of handling different objections. All my things to probe on and get further clarity on, all my different intros of ways I might introduce myself to different managers depending on what they're looking for or what industry they're in, or if we've got— if we— if it's a cold call or if it's slightly warmer. Yeah, so I'd say write everything down and then sort of compartmentalize stuff depending on the activity you're doing. So I sort of wrote a candidate qualification sheet when I first started And now that's sort of in commonplace for the new people at Montage. So people get sent that by their manager and then sort of all the new people, you always see it open on their screens when they're doing candidate qualifications. And that's just because I was like, I want to get the most out of this initial call because it is the first point of contact. So you want to do it properly. So I would make notes and every time I had a call, I'd think about what I can add to it and what I can adapt, how I can adapt it. One other thing I would say is This is a really good thing you can implement sort of in the background, quite passively. Whenever you're having a call, think about if it goes wrong, think about the point when it goes wrong and really notice the point where the manager you're speaking to switches off or the candidate you're speaking to loses interest. And then on your next call, jump straight into the next call because it is very easy to fall off a bit and be like, "Oh no, I had a bad call. I'm a bit nervous now. I don't want to pick up the phone." So I would say don't let yourself think like that. Jump back on the next call, but consciously thinking That's the point where the person lost interest before, so I'm going to do that differently. And then if you keep doing it differently and keep— you'll sort of naturally just get further and closer into calls and to the point where you can be talking to someone 10 minutes and they're just not switching off to you.

Thanks for sharing that, George. Yeah, build a recruitment brain. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that. Super smart. So you've mentioned it a couple of times again. I just have to ask. Ask, but like, what would your advice be for someone listening to this who is like shit scared of doing cold calls? Does it sound like you're doing a bit of them? You're doing a lot of outbound activity. What's the advice?

My advice is it gets easier, I guess. Everyone has to do the cold calls to start, and like I said, it's about putting in the graft early on to make yourself stand out from other recruiters. So yeah, I mean, also remember these people, they are just people. Realistically, you're not gonna see them face to face if you're working a remote market. So I focus on sort of Germany and some areas of Eastern Europe, and the likelihood is I'm never gonna see these people face to face unless we actively arrange it together. So I mean, just remember you don't have to meet these people face to face. So it's like if it goes wrong or you embarrass yourself, it's not that bad. Everyone's been through something similar at least a few times. And also, I mean, when you're speaking to managers, they're just the same as candidates but with a couple more years experience. That's something I got told by my trainer as well, and it really stayed with me. So it's just sort of like when I'm— a lot of people get nervous speaking to a manager, it's like the CEO or CTO of a big business, but at the end of the day, they're just like anyone else you're talking to throughout the day with a couple more years experience. So I mean, wouldn't worry about it too much.

So as we come to the end here then, like I think you've shared some really great things, George, but I guess a good sort of thing that people would like to hear. So like, with, with what you've learned so far, the journey that you've been on, obviously 9 or so months in, like, what would your advice be for someone who like really wants to have the best possible start to their career? They want to be the person that does continue on, and they're not part of the 6 or 7 people that didn't make it. So like, yeah, what would your advice be from knowing what you know now for people starting out and to have the best possible start?

I guess quite a few things, probably. Remind yourself it's a long game, results will come, but first you've got to lay the groundwork. Learn as much as you can, ask questions from not just your manager but from anyone around you who you can see is doing well, so you can get as many people's perspectives on routes to success as possible. Build your knowledge so you have as many different tools to use and therefore you can be as successful as possible. Do what other people don't definitely is a big one I've sort of drilled in, whether that's working longer hours or using different strategies to show managers you're more worthy of their attention than other recruiters. Definitely, definitely educate yourself on negotiation and people skills. Read Chris Voss' Never Split the Difference, and then just sort of learn about how to be as approachable as possible and how to get the most out of people in a non-manipulative way. And then try not to rely too heavily on caffeine, I guess.

I love that. So look, final question, George. Look, why do you think more people should consider a criminal recruitment, right? George, you didn't know about this industry, you didn't know about this career, and you seem so engaged, so excited with— yeah, yeah— what you can build for yourself. So this is why I'm so passionate about having more people like you share. Look, I know that it's been hard, but it's been worthwhile and I'm excited. And this is a really great career choice for people. So like, why do you think more people should consider it as a career choice?

So I would start with a little mini disclaimer. I don't think it is for everyone. I don't think every single graduate should consider it because like I said, if you want a job where you can just clock in, work, clock out and you're done, then you should probably do something else. I mean, again, it's fine, but to be the best recruitment consultant that you possibly can, you need to be driven to go past this, working extra hours, handling doing urgent client requests in the evenings and just generally sort of doing things to go above and beyond the basic requirements. Um, but I mean, if, if you are willing to do that, then it— the, the opportunities to be successful, get financial freedom, are kind of endless. And it's, it's all down to whatever amount of work rate you want to put in. And if you are a hard-working person, or you feel like you could be a hard-working person but you need something to really just pull that out of you, then, um, it's a great starting point.

Love it, George. Thank you so much. Kudos to you. And, uh, look, uh, yeah, really excited to see how your career evolves. Like, absolutely love your mindset. I love your sort of— clearly have a great commitment to, yeah, trying to maximize your potential, and that's what this is all about. So yeah, uh, congrats so far. Uh, I hope you achieve the goals that you have for your first year. And, uh, George, thank you so much for joining me.

Thanks so much for having me, Hishem.