Early on in recruitment series | Hannah Vine - Surviving the Recruitment Rollercoaster

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and this is another installment of the Early On in Recruitment podcast series where we're sitting down with recruiters who are early on in their career to find out what have been some of their biggest challenges, how they overcame them, what advice do they have for people starting out in their careers, and, uh, much more. I'm delighted to be joined by Hannah Vine today, and we're going to sort of unpack her journey. She's been working in recruitment for 14, 16 months, and yeah, we're going to dive straight in. So Hannah, thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

So I think where I've been starting with people is sort of where people, what people's expectations were and sort of what actually transpired. So I guess let's just start sort of from what I can obviously this is your— this has been your first recruitment job, right?

Yeah.

So, um, yeah, let's just start with like, how has recruitment been compared to what Hannah expected going into this journey?

Yeah, so I guess in the long term I never really knew what recruitment was. It was only kind of throughout uni where I started hearing about people who, you know, went into recruitment and, you know, knowing that it was an actual job. Um, but I'd say like The funniest thing is I basically got the job, my first recruitment job, in October time. And then because of COVID we went into another lockdown. My start date got pushed back from October back to February. And in that time, in that period of time, I was having an absolute freak out. Like, I was like, I don't know anything about recruitment. I don't know anything about technology. I nearly pulled out so many times. I nearly, like, retracted. Like, I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know anything at all. I was terrified. I had this perception that I need to already be an expert. I was watching YouTube videos like, like every day and I was just so nervous, but I literally started and I was like, oh, there's nothing to be scared about, nothing to be worried about. You don't need to have experience in recruitment or anything like that. You don't need to know anything about technology. You will literally be trained from day one on what you need to do. So I think overcomplicating it in your head is like the worst thing to do because because there's no expectation there for you to know stuff already. So I think I worked myself up a little bit too much about it. But yeah, in reality, I think recruitment, you get taught everything you need to know. That's one of the main things I can tell people, I guess, who are getting into recruitment.

Maybe worried about it. Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

So how did you go about— you mentioned the industry there. A lot of people that I speak to early on, sometimes get sort of caught up in that. I don't know if you've been on a journey with this, but like can oftentimes lack confidence because they feel like they have to know as much as the people they're speaking to, or sometimes doubt or sort of say things like, why would they speak to me when I've only got 3 months experience? So how have you gone about then, sort of, as you said, obviously Tom and the team have obviously helped you and trained you up, but like how have you gone about acquiring the knowledge of your sector and those things? How have you gone about that?

I'd say the first thing is, and the thing that will get ingrained into you throughout recruitment and the start of your career, is like, get on the phones and literally speak to people. Speak to people. That's the only way you're going to learn. Like, even if you have no idea what they're talking about, the more you hear the same words, the way they're phrased, all that sort of thing, that will, you know, you'll start picking it up. There's no point pushing it away or like doubting yourself about it. And people say fake it till you make it. That's basically like, if you pretend you know what you're talking about, you're gonna sound like you know what you're talking about. Like, if you sound confident while you're saying it, like, I think the worst thing you can do is shy away from it and, you know, worry that you don't actually know what you're talking about. There's so many, like, resources out there as well, like speaking to people on LinkedIn and things like that, where you can pretty much learn whatever market you're in. And I And I think the easiest thing to do is obviously focus on one specific market or area and put as much time as you can into that and ensure that, you know, you're actually channeling everything into one area because you'll pick up a lot quicker and then you will sound a lot more knowledgeable. I guess if you're trying to learn like multiple different markets all at once, it's going to take you like— if you're trying to learn 4 markets, it's going to take you 4 times as long to become an expert in them all. So if you learn one conquer that, you're going to pick up knowledge about other areas on the way as well. So yeah, just focus on obviously the area that you're kind of working in and don't stress too much. Like, fake it till you make it.

So with that, I think just what would be useful, Hannah, on that, if you don't mind sharing, is like when you did speak to people, maybe even still now, like, do you own the fact that Oh, you know what? That's really interesting you say that. I haven't sort of heard that before. Could you tell me more about that? Because I think that's sometimes what people miss or understand is that actually people really enjoy speaking about themselves. And if you actually have the humility to go, you know what, actually, I don't actually know much about that, or that's the first time someone said that. Could you tell me a bit more? Like, how did you actually— I know you said fake it till you make it. I totally get that. And sort of leading with confidence. But when there was parts where, like, yeah, these people were talking about things that you had no fucking clue about, did you sort of own it and sort of be like, that's really interesting. Me more about that. I'm still learning in this space. I don't know, how did you own that and talk about that and how did that resonate with people?

Yeah, I think that humility aspect of it is, you know, super important. And at the end of the day, people are like— everyone's human. You're not like— even people who work in that space aren't an expert on it. They don't know everything about it. But it's funny you say that. Literally this week I've been working in some roles in a completely new domain, and I literally like sent out— I've been calling people and saying honestly, like, I'm reaching out to you. I can tell you the basics, but I'm going to put this on you to actually tell me some information about it because this isn't my core market. If I'm like holding my hands up, I don't actually know much about the area. I sent out like a LinkedIn message that was, you know, saying a similar thing. Like, you know, I've got these roles. It's not my core market. I don't know too much about it. You know, would you be interested in the role? Or even if you're not interested in the role, would you be like if you can tell me any information about this space or you got any advice or help. And so many people came back to that and they were so nice. They were like, I'm not looking for a new role at the moment, but I'm really happy to have a chat with you about the area. So yeah, it's just like remembering that they're human, like people and people want to help each other. And again, once someone is an expert in that area, they want to speak about it like they've got all that knowledge there. And I guess like, yeah, they want to flex completely. So lean on that. Like especially I guess in the techie space, people they've got a lot of experience and they've got a lot of skills and they want to show that off and they want you to know they know what they're talking about. So yeah, 100%, people, they like that humanity aspect of it.

Yeah, that's a great insight. Thanks for sharing that. And yeah, really interesting you experienced that this week, but that's a great insight. And definitely if you're listening to this, take that approach. And yeah, what a great position to be in that you've got people in your market willing to talk to you. And yeah, then like there's so much information you could take from that. And yeah, that's awesome. So I guess what What skills or experiences has recruitment given you then that you least expected so far?

I think one of the main things is, I don't know how best to phrase it, like not caring about things as much. Like, I think in the start you take things to heart a lot and you think, oh, it's the end of the world. But now it's, I think, in the professional side of it, in recruitment as well as in my personal life, like you don't take things so seriously. Like, it's really not that deep. It's something like, something small happens when you, when you start working there, you're like, oh no, No, it's the end of the world. But you look back and you're like, oh, why did I care so much? No one died. Everyone's fine. There's no point stressing over little things. And I think it's really helped me to realize you put things into perspective. I think that's one of the main things that I've learned is it's really not that bad. What's the worst that could happen? I think that's really important to keep in mind. But yeah, I'd say that's one of the big things.

Yeah, that's such a superpower, that for sure. Like, yeah, like that can help you in a lot of scenarios in work and outside of work when you're—

oh, sorry, now I just say it's not something that's like easy to learn. You can't really learn it without like going through something to learn it. You can't just like read a book and then suddenly start thinking differently. I think you've got to experience and like build up that tolerance to it, I guess. Like, tolerance.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, happening a lot.

Yeah, no, I get you. I mean, yeah, but yeah, it definitely— in today's, in today's, uh, day and age, like, it does, it does worry me that people, like, literally could potentially have their days ruined if, like, someone cut them in the traffic, or like the Starbucks person spelled their name wrong on their sort of Starbucks cup or whatever like that. Yeah, I think a lot of people get triggered so easily.

I do still have bad road rage, but like—

but yeah, I think, I think that's a really cool insight actually, that Yeah, it's actually helped you just be able to be like, instead of fretting and maybe losing a lot of energy and losing, uh, yeah, sleepless nights over things or worrying about things, you've sort of got that muscle now of like, actually, you know what, let's move on, let's pick myself back up and crack on.

One of our favorite phrases here is, we go again. Something bad happens, you go again. Like, what is the point of dwelling on things? Literally no point.

Yeah, no, great attitude. So So on that then, what has been your biggest challenge so far on this journey? Like most people, I'm sure you might have heard this in the office, you might even have it said to you that, yeah, first year recruitment can be fucking difficult. Maybe the most, probably the most difficult in your journey. So sort of looking back, obviously you're past this year mark now. So like, what would you say were the biggest challenges, the biggest stumbling blocks that you had to sort of work through in those first 12 months?

It's quite funny because now I look back, it's really hard to pinpoint. Like, it's— I feel like in the moment you think it's the end of the world and you're like, oh, this is so bad. But then a few months later you're like, what even— what was it? What was like— what was the low? What was I upset about? What? But my favorite cliché, I'm sure you've probably heard this 100 times this week already. Recruitment is a roller coaster. It literally is ups and downs. Like, every person who joins, I always tell them, like, you're gonna have your worst day ever and you're gonna want to quit. Like, at the start, this is so prevalent for me. It was one day I hated it, I came home and I was like, I'm gonna quit, I'm gonna quit. And then the next day I literally had the best day ever and I was like, I love this job, this is amazing. And like, it evens out, like, it slows down and you don't get like that as much. Like, at towards like the year mark or so. But at the start, that was happening like literally every day. And it's funny because I— that's my one piece of advice that I tell everyone who joins is like, you're going to have your worst day ever. That's a pivotal point. If you come back in the next day, you're going to have your best day ever. But if you like listen to that and you're like, oh, I had a bad day, I am going to quit. Like, you're not going to have the opportunity to have that, that good day that, you know, eggs you on. So yeah, no, I think, um, it's wider than that then, just sort of riding the roller coaster.

So what are you talking about here then? So a lot of people ask me or wanted me to ask this. So what you're talking about here, probably people would coin resilience and like wanting to push on and wanting to dust yourself off and come back in again. So like, how— so clearly you've done— clearly you've cultivated that, clearly you've worked on that muscle. Of resilience? Because as you just said there, multiple times in that first year you went home, you wanted to quit, uh, so, and you didn't. So why, like, like, how did you push through that? What were the things? Was it just this, yeah, ability to go, right, that was like, not what more bad can happen, I'm gonna carry on? Like, how did you push through that? How did you build that resilience?

Yeah, I think it's, um, it's probably one of the most common interview questions, I guess, for like people in general who are joining recruitment, is like, do you have perseverance? It like, and what's your proof of that? And obviously everyone said they do, but I think at the end of the day it's actually having it and being able to, to get past those days. Um, but yeah, I wouldn't say it's anything specific. You've just gotta let it out. I think the worst thing that I did that I like I bottled it up and I bottled it up a lot. Yeah, that was the worst thing you can do. And I'd have those bad days and I wouldn't speak to my manager about it. I wouldn't like tell anyone. So imagine all those like small days, they all build up and then I hit this like huge super low and I'm like, oh, I'm miserable. Like, I want to leave, but it's my own fault because I've just bottled it all up and I haven't allowed anyone to help me. So I think the best thing to do, and like when I started actually speaking to my manager and every time I felt like this, literally it's just like a release. You're like, you let it all go and you're like, okay, cool, I've spoken about it, put it in the past, and then we carry on and like we keep moving. So I think like the easiest way to get— if you have those issues, like don't bottle it up. You need to make someone aware and you need to allow someone to help you. And that's the only way I've really got through That's one of the main things I can pinpoint from the start that has changed and has made like a really big impact is not bottling things up. If you have an issue, just speak to someone about it.

Yeah, that's brilliant. Why do you think you bottled it up?

I think it's— I think because as I said, when I started, I didn't know anything about recruitment or anything about technology. I didn't want to come across like I haven't learned anything, I still don't know anything. And it's like One of our favorite sayings as well. We have a few favorite sayings, but like, always assume with positive intent. And I don't think I did that at the start. I think I felt every time someone was giving me advice or, you know, telling me I'm doing something like not wrong per se, but, you know, the things that you can interpret as being negative things, but actually they're giving you advice to help you. And I think I interpreted quite a lot of it not with positive intent. So I'd get in my own head about it. So I think, yeah, no, it's really important to keep that positive mindset.

No, thanks for sharing that, Hannah. I was hoping you'd say that because I think that is what holds people back. You're completely right. People don't want to look stupid and people don't want to feel like, like you said, like, oh, is this going to come across like I'm not learning? Should I be doing this more right than I— I don't know, should these things be happening to me right now? So I'm glad you said that. So that's awesome that you work through that. I love that sort of always assume like things are coming with positive intent. I really like that. So I guess just to sort of finish up talking about this then, what might be a good thing to ask you, and I have like asked this question recently, is like with where you're at on your journey now, if like shit hits the fan, we're talking like you have 3 dropouts in a week or like you just have one of those days. Like what? Obviously, but you said like you won't let things build up and like you'll speak about them, but like, what's your like go-to ritual or your rituals to like deal with the shit that recruiters have to deal with? Have you got sort of a ritual that you go to now?

You're writing stuff down, you're going for a walk, go home, have a glass of wine. I think, I think one of the nicest things about recruitment is even though you're working like by yourself and you've got your own desk, technically, like you are still part of a team and everyone else goes through the same thing. I literally like going for a drink after work and just chatting to everyone about like letting it out to people who understand what a nightmare it is. And then hearing their stories about when things have gone 100 times worse than that. It's so— it's like reassuring to know that, you know, this isn't the end of the world. This isn't like the worst thing that's ever happened. I wouldn't say anything I do in particular. I have a few times I have done, I guess, like a bit of a huge desk dive. Like I've had weeks where I've lost out on like £30,000 of deals like in a week and it's been tough and I'm like, ah, why hasn't this gone through? Like, what am I doing wrong? And then it's— I sit down with my director. I think we sat in a room for like 2 hours. We went through everything that I'm doing from start to finish and I was like, okay, I'm not following processes correctly. I'm not doing— like, I always do this and I haven't done this part of the process. So it's actually good to like reflect. And I think you, you assume you're doing everything and you're like, oh, I'm experienced now so I know what I'm doing. But actually when you sit down and look at it, there's probably areas that you've forgotten about or you've missed out a bit. So just looking back through and realizing, right, these are the things that I need to make sure I'm doing every time. And I think sometimes, like, I think just taking a step back, because I think I'm like, oh, I know what a good CV looks like, so I'm not going to call this person, but then I should just be calling everyone. Or there's— I think you get a little bit complacent and a little bit cocky, so Yeah, just taking it back to basics, I think, is the best thing to do. If there's— if you're stuck in a rut, take it back to basics, start afresh, recap yourself on absolutely everything, and then you can basically like— and then go home, have a glass of wine, and then go again.

Yeah, I love that. Now, what you're talking about there is responsibility, accountability, being willing to look at yourself in the mirror and go, what could I have done better? Rather than— you can easily always point at someone, a candidate, client, whatever, as to like why that's happened. Right?

Yeah.

And then there you're going to really limit your opportunity to grow. So totally get that. That's awesome. So what did you learn then in those first 6 to 12 months that you wish you knew from the beginning, that you wish you knew from day one, do you think?

Yeah, I think as I kind of said before, just remembering that everyone's human. Like, if somebody's rude to you on the phone, like, something really bad could have just happened to them, that they're not angry at you. Like, people have good days, people have bad days. You can't take things to heart. I think it's really important to remember, like, at the end of the day, just because someone's a CEO of like a huge company, like the CTO of like a huge company, they're also still a human being. You don't have to be terrified to speak to them. Like, I think just remembering that people are people. Um, what else?

That's great, that's great.

Yeah, yeah, it's quite hard to think back because recruitment, it like, it goes so quickly as well, so it's hard to pinpoint like when, what actually was in, in that like beginning, beginning 6 months. I learned that.

That's a great point. I think that'll help a lot of people to really sort of draw that into themselves. Um, I guess obviously for yourself, obviously you're— correct me if I'm wrong here, but from when we spoke, you're entirely focused on the delivery, building relationships with candidates and the candidate process, right?

Yeah, I've gone through— I've been mainly focused on the delivery side. I've gone through phases where I've been trying to get more into the BD 360 side. I did actually try to kind of move over into the 360 role back in September, but I was in like one of my ruts where I hadn't kind of released everything and I was putting too much pressure on myself, not speaking with my manager and communicating things. I just put myself in like a completely worse headspace as well. So I decided to kind of leave that 360 side of it while I got myself back in, but like out of the funk, back into the groove thing. And now I'm kind of trying to focus on, focus on it a little bit more now. But yeah, predominantly it's, um, it's all been on the delivery.

Yeah, the reason, the reason why I brought that was I sort of had quite a few people ask me this. A lot of people obviously start their journey depending on the type of business they join. Like, I started my journey on the candidate side, and then you sort of get exposed to different things. And, uh, but Like, I wanted to ask you how, again, with where you're at right now, what do you think has been the most effective way for you so far to build, like, sustainable relationships with candidates? Do you think?

I think just being honest, like, being personable, like, speaking to them, like, if they know stuff about you, they're going to feel automatically, like, closer to you as well and see you as a human being, not someone who's there just trying to make money off of them. Because that's not even like— a lot of the time that's not actually the case as well. Obviously that's our job, but just being a person, like listening to them, having like a general conversation, um, I think that's like a huge part of it because some people obviously don't kind of go into that like relationship building stage. Um, but for me it's just a transparency and like actually trying to help them as much as possible. Like our process is super strict and I always like— I'll always make sure I send out, um, like, really detailed interview prep. And, you know, just building the relationship at every single stage, making sure you're, like, having video calls with candidates as well. It's— you speak to— you can speak to someone on the phone 10 times, you can have a video call with someone once, and you've already built more of a relationship than you have, like, the 10 phone calls that you've made. It's just like little things, just trying to humanize that, because it is like, again, they're humans, it's their job. Like, you've got a actually really listen to them and understand what they want and what's important for them. So yeah, I think you just gotta relate to them and make sure that they realize you actually genuinely are interested.

Yeah, what I take from that is, yeah, being authentic, like, yeah, connecting with people as someone, like, bringing yourself to that, not like putting on this sort of professional mask. And then what you're talking about is, yeah, candidate experience and really delivering that and delivering value. So obviously we've spoken a lot about funks, challenging times, like talk to me about what's been one of your best or most memorable days so far?

Oh god, that's—

Do we have a week where we did 30k worth of deals? Did that happen where it actually went in? Or what's been your best day so far or best week?

I think like it was probably last August, it was when I just started I guess, kind of doing the full process by myself without any help from my manager. So like from the start to the finish, um, and actually got something from the process. And I was like, oh, like, this is awesome. Like, I, I know what I'm doing. Like, I don't need— well, I don't need help anymore, obviously. I'm still a trainee, but like, where you feel confident and comfortable doing that. And then I think it was like that month I ended up having— it was almost 50K a month in like my fourth fourth or fifth month, which I think was so cool. And it was just going home every day. I think it's really funny because then you're like, you're totting up the commission you're making and you're like, oh my God. Yeah, yeah. Like, super, super exciting. Um, I had quite a funny week a few weeks ago where everything was literally going to shit, basically. Like, it was— I, I had like offers out and then the client was like, no, we're actually going to retract these offers. And I was like, are you joking? They're like, yeah, we might be pulling all the roles. And I was like, I've literally got all these people at final. Like, this could be a really good week or it could be a really bad week. And I was like, everything every day, like, what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? And then it was like 4 PM on a Friday, and the client called me and they were like, nope, we're still going ahead with all these roles. And I was like, it was like this, you know, so nervous and like so on the edge for like the whole week. And I was like, it's gonna be really good, it's gonna be really bad, and I'm gonna have to tell this candidate that you're not actually having this offer anymore. They've just turned down 3 other roles, but you're not having this anymore. I was like terrified. And it's I think that relief is like a lot better than like the excitement as well. When things don't go bad, that's basically a huge success.

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. What do we— do we make any flexes with a big commission? Do we make any rogue purchases with your first big commission paycheck?

With my first one, I don't know what— what did I get for my first one? I can't even say, it's probably like Botox or something. Um, I don't know, I had a really good, really big one recently and I'm just like, I need to pay off my council tax. Boring.

Yeah, that's definitely boring. No one wants to hear about that. Okay, cool. So what, so curious to get your thoughts on this. Um, yeah, like this is I guess more for people that will be listening to this that want to get into recruitment or interested to it. Obviously there's so many recruitment companies in, in the UK. So I had a really interesting question that someone wanted me to ask people, so, um, I wanted to get your thoughts on it. So basically the question is, if you could pick one thing about the environment you joined that has allowed you to succeed so far, what would it be? For example, it could be the culture, training, incentives, like, yeah, what comes up for you?

Yeah, I think 100% the training I had. Like, it was, it wasn't intense, but I know, like, learning from someone who knows what they're doing and knowing from someone who's like an expert in their field. I was really lucky. I got trained by one of our, like, our directors at the time who basically, like, literally took me under their wing and taught me absolutely everything. And I, to this day, I credit my success to him. But he's always like, no, Hannah, it wasn't me, it was you. So we're like back and forth. But I think that having the really, really good training that I had. And that one-on-one time I think is super, super important as well. Um, you know, if you're looking for a recruitment company, I'd make sure that you're asking questions around like the resources they have to train you. Like, what, what does their diary look like? Are they in meetings from 9 till 5? Like, is your manager in meetings from 9 to 5 every day? Are they training like 20 other people at the same time? Like, do you actually have that much time to be trained by someone and like have someone to learn from. I mean, we sat on the desk next to each other. It was like constantly like, what's this? What's that? What's that? Constantly asking questions and having that really super close support around you, I think, is the most important thing. And that's, that's what I credit my success to, was my training.

Yeah, that's, that's great. Thanks for sharing that. So with training in mind then, what's, what's the best sort of training advice or advice that you got given in that sort of training? Context that you received that really sort of helped you and really worked and really sort of, yeah, ended up playing out in a positive way in your role, do you think? Um, feel free to go as granular as you want.

Yeah, trying to think back to my training week. Seems like a lifetime ago, actually. It's crazy.

Well, you said you credit him, so what are some of the things that you like? Yeah, like he like told you, like, you know what, this has already worked for me, and like, you know, you even still do it now.

I think you've got to think if you actually— like, if you've got a question, you've got to think whether you actually know the answer already. Because I feel like a lot of the time I was being like doubting myself, like asking questions. And one of the best things that, um, that he did at the time was like, well, what do you think the answer is? And that's— and then you're like, oh, I actually do know the answer. Like, why am I asking questions? Like, you— I don't think you should doubt yourself. I think it's so much better to be in a position where you know, you're giving it a go or you're thinking about— you probably know it already. And I feel like you're just kind of not giving yourself enough credit or confidence if you're, you know, doubting yourself in that sense. Um, yeah, but I'm trying to think, like, what other— I think it was more— oh, okay. So one of my favorite things as well was just do it.

Just do it.

Just do it. Because I'm the queen of saying I'm gonna do it and not doing it.

Oh wow.

So then we got to this point where we were like, Hannah, you just need to do it. And I was like, I just need to do it. Like, don't make excuses. Don't be like, oh, I can't do it because of this, can't do it because of that. Like, just do it and it's not even going to be as bad as you thought it would be. It's not that terrifying. And the more you put it off, the more scared you're going to be, the more you work yourself up, the more you waste your time being like feeling negative or like scared. You just do it and then you're like, oh wow, that was amazing. Like, that felt great. Yeah. Like, it really isn't that bad. Like, just do it. Get on the phones. Whatever you're scared of doing, just do it. You'll prove, you'll prove yourself so quickly that you can do it so easily as well.

Yeah, awesome. So let's end on this then. Obviously, you, from what I can see, you graduated uni in 2020. A lot of young people enter the, the recruitment industry. A lot of people find this podcast and it helps them understand if it's a career for them. We've spoken about the challenges. There's been plenty of lows but you've, uh, you've, uh, rode through that, you've worked through it, and can tell, see sort of how energized you are. And, and you obviously, whenever we spoke, you seem super happy and engaged. So like, hopefully this can showcase people like, yes, it is difficult, yes, it is challenging, but the sort of hard times and the people you're doing it with and the actual job itself, overall in the long term, it's all worth it. But like, why do you think more young people— why do you think more people should actually consider recruitment as a career choice? A lot of people fall into it as an accident, have no fucking clue about it, but like, why should people actually identify as a career that they want to get into from your perspective?

Yeah, I think it's really funny because I'd only started hearing about recruitment while I was at uni, and I— this is really bad, but I remember speaking to one of my friends and I was like, oh my God, I'd never go into recruitment. Like, it's such a scapegoat of a career.

And like, such a what?

Like a scapegoat of career. I thought like, oh, you can't get a job after uni, so you just go into recruitment. Like, that is really bad. Like, that was my— that was like my mentality of it while I was at uni. And then I like— I basically just like started eating my words. I got into recruiting, my friend was like, Hannah, do you remember what you said? I was like, yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, this is really bad. But when you like— when you actually find out more about it and realize that it's actually quite difficult, like, it's not it's not this like easy thing that you just do. And I didn't even know how much money you could make at the time. Like, while I was in uni, I just thought people were like— I didn't even know what recruitment was. I was like, oh, everyone seems to be going into that recruitment thing. Like, like, what even is it? No one knows about it. Um, but I think one of the best things you just do your research, find out if it is something that you enjoy. Like, people obviously, they ask you if you like a challenge. Like, it— do you genuinely like a challenge, or will you like fall at the first hurdle? We have a bad day and then you'll be like, oh, okay, I'll quit then. Like, I think it's just actually, it's like the standard bullet points I think that companies in general put on a job spec. Like, do you like a challenge? Like, do you have perseverance? Are you— it can, like, can you power through? But it's actually taking note of those and actually thinking about whether you can and you can do it. But the money is worth it. The money is worth it. And you're working with like-minded people around the same age. Like, it's so much fun. It's so much fun. You'll earn so much money, just like, especially just coming out of uni, like, you're probably not going to find another job where you'll be paid as much as you are. And it, like, there's so many different routes you can go down as well, so much you can learn. I feel like a half expert in techie things, which I never thought I would be. I thought I would be like a party planner now, but obviously I'm not. I'm like working in tech recruitment, which is crazy, but Yeah, no, it's definitely just like do research into recruitment and it's easy to get into it, but you're the one who's got to do the hard work to make it work and make yourself a success.

Love it. Hannah, look, thanks so much for joining me. Kudos to you for getting through the low times, the challenging times. Obviously excited to see how your tech recruitment career continues to unfold. But yeah, thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun.