Early on in recruitment series | Jamie Cook & Katie Farquharson from Storm 2

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. We're back with another edition of the Early On in Recruitment series where we're sitting down with recruiters who are early on in their recruitment journey to find out what they've learned along the way so far, the challenges that they're working through, advice for those that also early on in their recruitment career, and even advice for people that are wanting to enter the recruitment industry as well. Really excited to be joined by Katie and Jamie today from Storm 2. So before we start uncovering their journey, and I've got loads of questions to ask, if you could both introduce yourself. Katie, I'll come to you first and we'll go from there.

Yeah, so I'm Katie. I've been in recruitment for about 10 months now. I graduated last year. I'm really enjoying it.

Jamie?

Yeah, I'm Jamie. I've been in recruitment now for 2 years. I graduated back in 2019 from Strathclyde in Glasgow. And yeah, I'm now one of the managers here at Storm 2, and we specialize in fintech-specific recruitment. So Katie and I both run teams within the engineering side of the business as well. So specializing in software positions.

Software positions in the fintech world.

In the fintech world.

Yeah, love that. Okay, so where I always like to start is, Jamie, I'll come to you first. Like, how did you end up, obviously graduating in Glasgow, did you say?

Yeah.

And end up working in recruitment in London? Like, how the hell did that happen?

Yeah, I think like most, to be honest, it wasn't something I was particularly looking out for. I actually had a job, to do wealth management in Dubai and then kind of got cold feet at the last second.

Really? Was that with like that De Vere Group?

Yeah, well, it was De Vere Group.

Yeah, yeah, that's like so— it's so important. Yeah, it is very infamous. Yeah, you're going on like no salary at all. Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

Yeah, so, um, yeah, I was reached out to by a headhunter down here and thought, yeah, look, why not? Let's go down, uh, see what they have to say, and ended up interviewing with quite a few different recruitment businesses around London, kind of getting a feel for it. I really didn't know too much about recruitment at all. Obviously, you hear the stories, but not really the ins and outs of it. And yeah, I really just enjoyed hearing all the founders' different stories and things and started getting more and more engaged. And then, yeah, basically in the end went with the CEO and leadership team that I believed in the story the most of. And thought, you know, these guys really are ambitious, they want to get somewhere. And I thought, yeah, why not? Let's commit to it and move down. Yeah.

Okay, okay. Before I ask you the same thing, I guess just interested, Jamie, like as you went on that journey of like, oh, recruitment, like what is this, blah, blah, blah. Like I guess what, as you were going through that, what got you most excited about it? So clearly you'd been thinking about sales, it seems like if you were going to, because I know wealth management's a bit different, that would involve sales, but What ended up getting you, I guess, quite excited or that you maybe learned in that sort of journey that you at least, that maybe you didn't expect?

Yeah, I think it was the way they were selling the organic growth opportunities to me. I'm a pretty ambitious guy. I want to do really well really quickly and I love the idea of it being a sort of meritocracy-based environment where you really get out of what you put in. I think that was the the thing that really engaged me from day one. And then, yeah, I mean, Storm2, the promotion structure they kind of sold to us seemed kind of unrivaled in the market. So, you know, that kind of was one of my main checking points from, you know, choosing these guys.

Yeah. So Katie, what about you? So obviously graduated more recently. How did you find recruitment? Is there a story there?

Yeah, so I actually graduated from the University of Manchester and I did a physical geography degree. So it was all, I was just learning about rivers, very scientific, but I really didn't want to go into that. And one of my friends did recruitment and it just sounded really fun, to be honest. I'm quite competitive, so I used to do loads of sports and I just thought it might be something really interesting.

Okay, so curious, is it he or she, your friend? He. How did he sell it to you, out of interest?

Uh, it was really, it was really about the money, to be honest. Yeah, just doing really well and, and the career progression as well. I think he didn't go to uni, but he'd, he was already leading a team within like 2 years, so that was really the main reason.

Fair enough. So, so the next question I have for both of you, Kay, I'll come to you first, is like, so obviously, obviously still early on in this journey, but obviously would have had assumptions and sort of, I guess, things that you would have thought about that recruitment would have given you, skills or experience, but always interested to find out what skills or experience do you think recruitment has given you that you least expected so far, do you think?

I think it's given me a lot more confidence, to be honest, because I've just graduated uni and I'm speaking to like loads of members of the C-suite in big fintechs in the States, and to win business you have to be confident, don't you? You have to be confident in what you're selling and and what you're talking about as well. So I think that's probably the main thing.

And what do you feel like that's also then, that confidence has also shown up in not just your professional life, but personal life?

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I love that. That's amazing. So quickly on that before I come to you, Jemimah, the same question, I guess, just talk to us a bit about, obviously I'm sure you wasn't as confident as you are now from the very beginning, I guess. What were some of the things that helped you cultivate that confidence out of interest to speak to those types of people that you just mentioned?

I think really the only thing is practice, to be honest. Yeah, I think obviously reading around fintech, learning a bit more about it. And then, as Jamie said, we're in the engineering vertical. So, you know, anything about engineering, but yeah, reading about it, talking to candidates, and also like learning from the directors and JC as well.

Okay, fair enough. So just really, I guess, just go out of your way to learn as much as possible so you do have—

Exactly, yeah.

More and more context. Yeah, fair enough. Jamie, so what about for you then so far? So you've been in recruitment a bit longer, but like what— obviously clearly you felt like you had an idea in your head of what recruitment would have given you, what you hoped it would, but like what skills or experience you think it's given you that you least expected so far?

Yeah, I definitely reiterate the confidence piece because I've Really, through uni, I'd say one of my biggest weaknesses was like presenting. I didn't really like the kind of public speaking element to it. Yeah, yeah. Like quite a confident guy with my friends group, but when it comes to public speaking, just couldn't stand it. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of situations here where, you know, we're meeting, as Katie said, C-suite of businesses that are, you know, really, really accomplished people. And I remember 6 months in, we went over to Stockholm and I basically had to go around and meet loads of CEOs by myself and sit down, confidently speak about the business and pitch to them, you know, 6 months out of uni. And it is that, you know, it comes back to that imposter syndrome type thing. You are thinking, you know, what are the justifications for me sitting in front of you guys pitching a business that I've only been in for 5 months? But no, it really is confidence is a big player. And then the other things I think that I've massively learned from is keeping my emotions in control. I mean, it's something— there's a lot of elements in recruitment where things might not go your way, or, you know, candidates, people are very tricky, you know, objects to deal with. And there's lots of things, you know, in play. And being able to be kind of patient on that side and not be too affected personally by things that are outside of your control is definitely something I've benefited from.

Yeah, you definitely go through that a lot in the beginning, like, Yeah, there's obviously, you could, you really sort of, when you're doing those deals or first couple of deals, you're like really at that high, but then when things go wrong, you can be quite really low. It's, you just get better at staying a bit more grounded and sort of not being too high with the highs and too low with the lows. But I have to ask you, Jamin, and Katie, feel free to chip in after, but like I've spoken to a lot of recruiters that even 2 years, a year down the line, like they really struggle with what you just described there, like that justification of like, who am I to be sitting down with these people and to be talking about why they should be using our service or working with us? So I guess, would you mind just talking to us a bit about like, I don't know, what comes up for me is I feel like there's no alternative besides like just owning that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think you're gonna get very far by trying to pretend you've got more than 5 months experience than you have, do you know what I mean? Like, how did you work through that besides just getting yourself in those situations and I guess just learning and how you could have done better in that last situation? But like, how did you just work through that? Because a lot of people struggle with that and I hear that a lot. Yeah.

I think my process for it was 2 different things. One is I think you really do need to believe in what you're selling and like creating a way that you can really believe and get behind what you're trying to pitch to these people. And secondly, I can't remember who it was that gave me this idea, but basically to treat any of these C-suite or really senior people as if they're your best friends, mom and dad, because ultimately it could be your best friends, mom and dad. And how you'd speak to them is how you should be speaking to these people. They'll probably treat you the same with the same level of respect. You know, approach it like that. And that was something that just kind of settled a few nerves the first few, you know, conversations I had.

But did you like, just curious, like, did you like address, like, did you just address it? Did you say, did you like own the fact that like, look, we're at Storm 2, we have big plans, this is what we believe in, I've been working the business for this time, like, did you own that? Because I think sometimes people get worried, like, do I try and like be perceived that I've got more experience than I had or whatever? I don't know, how did you approach that?

Yeah, I think it's, yeah, we were more selling like these are the ambitions we want to do rather than this is the short 5-month stint that I have done. Yeah, and they, yeah, trying to get them bought into that rather than what you have already accomplished because at that point, you know, we'd, you know, just started adding our first set of contacts to the system and things. I mean, if we were trying to sell them on that, I don't think we'd go up very far.

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Katie, what about you? Have you, have, what, how did you process this or approach this? Because this is a really common challenge that people go through.

Yeah, oh, I think I can't really add too much more than Jamie has, but I think it is just, it's just something that you learn over time, to be honest. It gets easier, and I definitely suffered with it at the beginning, that imposter syndrome, but I think just more, the more you have, the more client calls you have, I think the easier it becomes.

Yeah, fair enough. So, Katie, why don't we obviously talk about— we're talking, I guess, a bit about it there, but I guess any other challenges that you've had to work through in the past year?

Yeah, I think it is similar, but I think it is just like the candidate control. I think that's a big challenge that I've had in recruitment. Obviously, there's only so much you can do to persuade someone to for example, take an offer. So it is hard and you do get really invested into it, don't you, emotionally?

Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, I think that's definitely the biggest challenge I face if I've had, say, offers rejected.

So like, well, as in also like just, I guess, just trying to like not go home and like think about that until you go sleep as well as part of the challenge?

Yeah, exactly.

Fair. And then I guess Jamie, for you then, I know we were just speaking a bit about a challenge, but I guess what I'm interested in is, and I'm sure this is maybe how you would describe it now, or you may have heard it be described, but most people would say like your first year, first two years in recruitment, it will be probably one of the hardest. So just trying to paint a real picture of the challenges that people can expect. So any other challenges that you've maybe had to work through, or maybe you even support some of your team with now?

Yeah, I mean, We've not been short of challenges, to be fair. There's been obviously the pandemic to work through in our first year, you know, operating as a business and trying to learn recruitment at the same time was, you know, a couple of things to juggle. And I think just like getting the brand name out there as well, I mean, you know, there's, I think, over 40,000 recruitment businesses in the UK. You know, what makes you guys different to anyone else that's emailing us? I can imagine these people get hundreds of the same types of emails every day. So yeah, I think the challenge is just really standing out and believing in what we're selling. As I said before, they've been kind of the key ones. And then sort of internally, a challenge for me through growing into more of the leadership type positions has been learning the switch between just recruiting day in, day out, which is what I did every day for the first year to now stripping that back and putting my success in other people's hands. That's something that I had never experienced before in my life, like basically relying on others for my own success. And yeah, I mean, it's something I'm still adapting to, but it's, you know, it's super exciting stuff. And we've got great people like Katie under me that's making my job a bit easier.

Yeah, yeah. Just talk to us a bit. So like, I'm just interested because obviously I would say most ambitious young professionals who want to get into recruitment will say, look, Jamie, I want to join your team because I want to progress, I want to get to the position that you are, whatever. So I guess you're now obviously in that, I know you're still learning a lot and everything as you said, but like you've got, you're obviously on that journey where you're like, right, I'm on the right track, I've progressed so far, this is why I wanted to join the industry. So like, again, has there been, I don't know, has there been imposter syndrome show up if you're now leading a team, or I don't know, how have you actually Because you're basically, what you just said is you're doing a lot of things for the first time or continuing to, the leadership stuff. So like, how are you working through that? How are you making sure that doesn't get the best of you?

Yeah, I'm just always not afraid to ask questions. I think, you know, it's a journey where you're expected to pick things up quickly if you want to do well. You know, so it's always asking and trying to improve your skill set sort of day in, day out, something that you know, I've always tried to do, especially from, you know, we've got great directors in Storm 2, and I'd love, like, they've been there, done that, and, you know, asking them, you know, how to do it, what's their opinions and things, has really helped me massively. And also kind of always renewing my belief system. I think, you know, if you're, if you set my, you know, a belief, your beliefs in, I want to achieve, just be a manager, and then you stop there, then you, you probably will only hit that. Whereas, yeah, yeah, I think with the ambition side of things, it's super important to keep sort of editing your belief system as your skill set grows. And that's what's kind of enabled me to keep kind of spurring on and trying to hit the next targets.

Yeah, I really like that, renewing your belief system. So, okay, so Katie, what I want to find out from you then is, I guess, like, knowing what you know now, like, what advice would you give to people who graduated this year considering recruitment or may have had a similar conversation like you did with a friend, what advice would you give them to, I guess, just have the best possible chance of making it as much of a success it can be in those first 12 months?

Yeah, I think really it is just about working really hard, and I guess onto your point previously about challenges, I think one of the biggest challenges if with recruitment is that like the hours can be long sometimes because— and you may have friends who are— a lot of my friends work 9 to 5 and you have to make sacrifices, don't you? But I think I don't work as long as I used to and I do definitely reap in the rewards. Becoming like a manager within the first 7, 8 months and get your own team. It's just things that you can't really get if you don't really put in the hours at the beginning.

Yeah, for sure. What, so for you then it would just be like just commit basically and really apply yourself?

Yeah, exactly, just put everything into it.

So on this then, if you don't mind me asking, so just a lot, because a lot of, I think a lot of people obviously are, I don't know, I don't want to say worried, but like apprehensive maybe. Like talk to us about, so when you say you've had to like really put the work in, what, talk to us about a typical day then. When would you start? When do you finish typically? I know it varies, but typically?

Yeah, it has changed a lot over the last few months as I've moved into management because, um, you have your own clients and everything. But at the beginning, I've always sort of started around 8, half 8, and then finish around half 6, 7. But then, yeah, I work the American market, so there's a lot of times when I used to take calls at 9, 10 PM. Yeah, yeah, I don't do that anymore. And at the end of the day, yeah, if you're working in a different time zone, you sometimes have to—

Yeah, so that's obviously a big factor, isn't it?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, fair enough. Okay, so really apply yourself. Cool.

Yeah.

Jamie, what about you? What would you say to— obviously you're obviously 2 years down the track now, knowing what you know, what would your advice be to people entering the recruitment industry that really wanted to make a success of it?

Yeah, recruitment, I'd say, is like playing piano. At the start, you learn lots of like individual keys and not many of them join probably not. But then, you know, as you get in the swing of things, it all starts, you know, your head starts connecting with your hands and it all starts paying off for you.

Great analogy.

Yeah, I think outside of that, you know, just be kind of open-minded and get stuck in is the most important thing. Like the grads we've seen do best are the ones that are just so open to learn and ask lots of questions when they start and are just really keen to get the ball rolling. The ones we see kind of slower starters are the ones that are still in kind of uni mode when you enter the recruitment life. Like, it is a bit of a jump going from uni to recruitment.

What's uni mode? Waking up at like 1 PM?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, just kind of going through the motions. But I think it's one of these jobs where As I said before, you get out what you put into it. So you can actually see, we've had people doing deals in the first sort of 4 to 6 weeks, but then there'll be other people that won't do them for 4 or 5 months. And that's purely because there's ones that are just super, super hungry to go and get it and get stuck in early days.

Yeah. Okay. So I just wanted to ask you both this and hopefully you can share something or So I guess on sort of Katie's point, I'll come back to you, Jamie, first on this. Like, obviously with us, I think something that I've definitely seen, let me know if you disagree or agree, but I do feel like, I'm sure you've sort of come to realize that there definitely can be a quite high turnover rate in the recruitment industry, right? And I do feel like part of that, although it'll be a complex thing, there'll be so many different factors, I do think Part of that for sure is obviously people putting in the work, but, and then like building unsustainable habits and burning out or just, yeah, just, I guess just working too hard, trying to like just work every hour under the sun and 3 months down the line, they're just like, I can't do this forever. So I guess the question is, is like knowing that you have to absolutely apply yourself, what were you mindful of or what did you make sure you did personally to make sure that you didn't burn out out of interest? Or was that even something you was thinking about?

Yeah, I think you have to take your holidays, don't you? I think especially at Storm 2, they really say, you know, you should take every single day of your holiday. And I think as long as you take your holiday and you have a nice week off, then I think, you know, you can recover. Another thing that I've been doing more recently is setting limits on my phone, on my apps, so I won't check my emails or things like that. 'Cause you, and weekends, I wouldn't work weekends. I think you just do need to step away from it. That is the most important thing.

Yeah, so make, just being really intentional with space that you give yourself that isn't like, oh, I'll just check this email here.

Exactly, yeah.

Definitely make sure you take your holiday.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, fair enough. What about you, Jamie? Anything that you was aware of, or maybe you try and, you've sort of encouraged your team to do to maybe avoid this?

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, the leaders of Storm 2 are really, really good when it comes to personal wellness. It's something they look out for. I think each of them have been in sort of cowboy-type environments where there isn't the emphasis on the mental well-being, especially when we're working from home. Like, they would strongly encourage you to take kind of, as Katie said, any holidays when required. We have, you know, a personal wellness day. Kind of once a quarter, things like that, just to make sure everyone's recharging the batteries. And then, to be honest, the working hours, especially, well, for us anyway, there's no expectation to work, you know, past 9, well, in between 9 and 6, past that time. And, you know, we get, you know, a full hour for lunch and everyone's encouraged to kind of go to the gym or go a walk at least. And that's something I encourage my team to do as well, because I just feel anyone that does it, it's just feel, you know, the days split up really nicely and everyone feeling refreshed.

Yeah, I think, I think that's the thing, isn't it, is like that expectation piece, isn't it? Because I think what can also really encourage that feeling of burnout or just those decisions is that, oh, like, if I don't stay until this time, Jamie's not gonna be happy, you know what I mean? If you've got people feeling like that, then it's, it's, it's— you're in trouble. Or if you're feeling like that, that isn't, that isn't fair, really. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I think that's such an important point. So what I'd love to find out from both of you, Katie, I'll come to you first. This is, I guess, just obviously most recruitment may or may not have sort of got a grasp of this, but I saw a post this week actually where there was like some LinkedIn stats around like, this is the sort of, I can't remember what country it was in, but it was like the most amount of recruitment jobs posted, like pre-COVID levels, basically, in terms of recruitment vacancies. So there'll be a lot of recruitment agencies that either listen to this or out there that want to hire people like both of you, young, ambitious, driven people. But what I want to find out from both of you is like, what type of companies, like what, what would that, what actually excites young people today in your opinion, in terms of like the types of companies that people are actually really motivated to work for or get excited by? Is it the Ibiza incentives? Is it being able to afford a Rolex? You know what I mean? Like what, I don't know, what's your opinion on things that you feel like actually connect with the young people of today out of interest?

Yeah, I think just having a lot of autonomy in your role, that's something that really appeals to me. Like Jamie said, I don't think leadership at Storm2 are controlling at all. As long as you get the work done, like, yeah, that's absolutely fine. And I think for me, the opportunity for international travel is probably like the biggest incentive for me. Yeah, so I've, as I said, I've been here for 9 months or nearly a year now, I think, and I've already got like trip to Singapore pending, trip to skiing, potentially the opportunity to move to New York next year. So I think things like that really do appeal to me.

Yeah, interesting. Jamie, what about you? What resonates with young people in your opinion?

Yeah, I mean, pretty similar. I don't think anyone's going to turn down a holiday to Ibiza or, you know, trip over to the States. But yeah, I think, as I said earlier, the thing that really got me was when speaking to the different founders was you know, who had the most ambitious vision for the business, and you know, where you could go internally. Like, it was mapped out very clearly to me where, you know, the potential for growth internally for me, which was such an important factor. Yeah, I mean, the commission structure and things, it is very, very good at Storm too, but I mean, there, you know, a lot of companies have commission in place, so you have to look past that and the Yeah, the real selling points for me were, where does this company want to go? If I come in here and do really well, where will I, you know, where will I land?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And that was super clear. And also the thing we haven't mentioned is we have, you know, Storm2 only hires grads. So we have a team of people that are all very, very similarly interested and motivated. Yeah. I mean, I've met some of my, you know, I can confidently say they'll be friends for life. And, you know, I look forward to going into the office every day just to see all the smiling faces because we all do get on really well and it's a good, you know, good company culture.

Yeah, camaraderie and everything. Yeah, that's awesome. So a couple of final questions then before we finish. So I guess, Gemma, come back to you, I guess. I'm just interested to get your thoughts on this. So practical advice for people who graduating this year or trying to enter the workforce for the sort of first time. From what I understood about Storm 2, outside looking in, obviously they were trying to hire a lot of people. I'm sure you, both of you would have been applying when loads of other people applying at the same time would have been competitive. So I guess the question I have for both of you is like, what, like knowing what you know now, supporting people with their sort of career and all the context you have now, like what would be your sort of best advice for people like you who may have just been graduating to stand out? And sort of stand out amongst the competition and the amount of people that will be applying for similar jobs? Out of interest.

Yeah, I think in terms of the interviews themselves, like, show your ambition and your key drivers. That's something like we certainly look out for. We want people that are going to come in and really be hungry to succeed. That's an important one. And in terms of resilience, I mean, recruitment is something that it's a bit of an emotional rollercoaster at times. And, you know, not everyone is cut over and I think that's why the attrition rate is pretty high. But, you know, if you can talk about times where you have gone through adversity and come out the other side, you know, stronger, I think that's something that sits really well with the founders of these businesses. And also, you know, it sounds trivial, but turn up looking tidy to an interview because the number of people we've said no to just because it looks like they just rolled off their couch is another one.

Still in uni mode, mate.

Yeah, still that uni mode.

Okay, what about you, what would be your tips for people that are trying to enter the workforce this year?

I think, yeah, I think really just maybe outside of work, just talking about what you are passionate about. Obviously, it's no secret that the money is a huge driver for people in recruitment, is it? And if you have a passion, if you have something that you do want to spend your money on, whether it be holidays or, I don't know, like Louis Vuitton bags or something, I think if you can speak about that, it does show that you will be motivated to work really hard.

Fair enough. Final question, I'll come to you first, Katie. So I guess final question just is, obviously, like both of you shared really, obviously a lot of people end up in recruitment quite accidentally, right? So I do really feel like recruitment should be more of a career choice for sure, because of loads of different things that you shared with us today on what it can support you with, help you with, give you professionally. So final question really is like, why do you think people should actually be considering recruitment as a career choice rather than it being an accident out of interest from your point of view?

I think number one would probably be career progression. I think there's not a lot of companies where grads can join and you can be like JC, for example, could be director in a few months. There's not a lot of companies where you can be 2 or 3 years out of uni and be a director of a company. So I think that would be the number 1 reason.

Progression is real, it isn't a fad. Apply yourself, you can achieve it.

Yeah, yeah, not with Storm2, definitely not.

Yeah, love that. JC then, final, final point. Why should people consider recruitment as a career rather than a career choice rather than accident?

Yeah, definitely the growth opportunities is a huge thing. And in terms of the one fear I had of coming out of uni was I didn't want to be a small cog in a big wheel and spend 15 years of my life trying to get to somewhere that I'd have just a bit of influence where the reality is it took about 18 months to get in a position where we're making significant business decisions every day, leading teams, pushing for us. To the sort of director level and the international opportunities is something like, is a reality. We're, you know, in talks with it just now about moving abroad and open up our own offices and things like that. So yeah, the growth thing is huge. Yeah, money is important. I mean, the ability to pay off your student debt in 2 years after uni is, you know, it is possible doing this career choice and also just like personal happiness. Like I, as I said before, I'm happy turning up to work every day. You know, I share a flat with 3 other guys from school, and a couple of them doing accounting and other degrees, and I could tell you they're hating life compared to me. You know, yeah, there's plenty of ups for it for sure, and I think it should be seriously considered as a career because it's, yeah, it's a great job, and we Katie and I have lots of fun.

Love it. Jamie and Kate, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for getting involved with this series. Thank you.

Thanks for having us.