Early on in recruitment series | Lizzie Formisano & James Salamon from This is Prime

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. This is another edition of the graduate entry-level recruitment episode series, and I'm really excited today to be joined by James and Lizzie. And in the next 30 minutes, we're going to be talking about how they ended up in recruitment, the advice that they would give to their younger selves if they were just graduating again, advice they give to people that are on the actual job market at the moment or maybe graduating for the first time. And we're going to sort of find out why we feel more people should be choosing recruitment as a career. So before we go into this, Lizzie, I'm going to get you to introduce yourself first and then James, and then we'll get into it.

Perfect. Yeah. Hi, so I'm Lizzie Formosano. I am a recruitment consultant at This Is Prime. So I've been at This Is Prime for about 8 months now. I started as a resourcer and now a full 360 consultant. Tiny bit about This Is Prime. We are a graduate sales recruitment company and I specifically recruit graduates into sales roles in London.

Awesome. And James?

Yeah, hi, I'm James Salomon. I've been at This Is Prime now for about 16 months and that includes a placement year that I did. I sit on the regions desk at This Is Prime, so focusing primarily on kind of any location outside of Manchester and London where our offices are. So do a lot of work in Scotland, Ireland, the Southwest, and America as well.

Love that. And then just for context then, so Lizzie, you graduated in 2019. Yeah, yeah, right. And then James, you graduated this year, right?

About 3 weeks ago.

Yeah, yeah, I saw the old, the classic popping champagne. Yeah, picture on LinkedIn. So yeah, congrats for that. So, um, okay, so let's start with you then, James. Like, how, like, talk to us a bit about how and like why you ended up sort of committing or wanting to work in recruitment after obviously graduating a couple of weeks ago?

Yeah, so obviously it started off as a, it's just a placement year, um, and I say just a placement year because I actually applied to do marketing at Prime. Um, so Prime sponsored the, the Manchester Met football team, um, so that's how I was aware of them. And I applied for a marketing position and it was kind of, had a couple of interviews and had a few conversations with Neil, who is a co-founder and MD in Manchester. And kind of realised that I think what I'm motivated by probably wasn't going to be given to me through marketing, and that was things like the clear progression, the commission for, you know, for your hard work and things. So I kind of had a bit of a decision to make in terms of did I want to try, you know, try my hand at recruitment, and I did, and I don't regret it. I thought at the end of the day it's, you know, a year of my life. Unfortunately, it was cut slightly short due to COVID, but 9 months of my life that I thought, you know what, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. And I'm pleased to kind of say that it did. So I went back into my final year quite refreshed knowing that I had a little bit more direction now. And then I say as of January this year, I was asked to, you know, if I wanted to come back on a part-time basis, which I'm really, really happy that I did. And I say now, now back full-time with This Is Prime. So yeah, kind of, yeah, I didn't really mean to come back.

Yeah, fair enough. So, and then just really quickly, Lizzie, did you, did you not do a placement year at This Is Prime, but did you also do a placement year when you was at uni? Out of interest?

No, no, I actually didn't. So I went straight out of university into a recruitment role. Actually, I've got quite a funny way of getting into recruitment really, which we'll probably go into later, but yeah, no, I didn't do a placement, went straight into recruitment after uni.

Really? Okay, fair. So let's, I want to both just get both your, I guess, honest thoughts. Well, I guess it'd be more James on like the benefits of potential placement years, but Lizzie, let's hear the story then on how you got into recruitment and why that's where you started your work career outside of, after leaving uni.

Yeah, no, so I was, I kind of, you know, was that classic graduate, you come out of university, you don't 100% know exactly what you want to go into, but I knew exactly what my motivations were and what my strengths were. Absolutely loved communicating, I've been like in hospitality my whole life, so love working with people, using interpersonal skills. I wanted a career where I could progress really quickly and obviously make money, to be honest, to be quite frank, have a really decent earning potential. So recruitment pretty much ticks all those boxes. So I started off in a small recruitment firm that Unfortunately got cut short just due to cash flow issues in a redundancy very early on. But once I almost got a taste for recruitment, I was like, absolutely, like, this is for me. Really, really love it. Went into internal recruitment role. And as I'm sure you can imagine, when COVID hit, internal recruitment is probably the worst place you want to be. So then that got cut short and that's when—

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So that's when I came across This Is Prime. So still stuck with recruitment. Third time lucky. But yeah, that was kind of the weird journey, I suppose, into it. So a couple of hiccups on the way, but we're here now.

So yeah, a classic showcase of resilience there by you. That's, well, fair play on you to keep pushing on and making that happen. So I guess just really quickly, because I think it would be valuable for people, I guess, like, one, James, like, how did you get a placement year out of interest? Like, how easy was it to get one? And two, like, is that something that people should be thinking about? Like, what are your thoughts on it, just out of interest?

Yeah, I think sort of on that, I think the first thing I'd say is it's very difficult to get a placement, so you'll feel like, you know, to anyone who is maybe applying or is looking to apply next year, you will feel like you're applying to a lot. I think I applied to around 28, if I'm being exact. In terms of recommending it, I think the kind of cliché is your lecturers will kind of say if you do a placement, you know, you're more likely to get a first and things like that. I can, you know, honestly say that I went back to uni, you know, having just got up at 6 AM for a whole year with a very different mindset. And it does make you more mature, it does make you more switched on, it does make you more, you know, manage your time more effectively. And as well, you know, the money is obviously a massive bonus of that. At the time, I probably wasn't thinking about it too much. Um, but I'd say, you know, bonus. Exactly.

Yeah.

Um, but it's difficult. You've got to, you've really got to stick at it, I think, in terms of applying to to placement opportunities.

Yeah, because I can imagine it being super competitive, but it seems like the benefits it gave you was obviously added bonus was like money, but it gave you a sense of sort of direction which a lot of people struggle with, had a bit more of an idea of what work might look like or what life might look like out after uni, and as you said, it gave you a sort of an environment where you could, I guess, yeah, mature a bit and be around people that yeah, aren't in the uni environment, right? Because yeah, that's just a completely different world.

Absolutely.

Yeah, so nice. So, um, where I want to start then, so for you, Lizzie, let me come to you on this first. Like, so we're speaking about recruitment quite positively, but like, what, what skills or experience— you said around progression and potential, but like, what, what skills or experiences recruitment given you that you least expected, do you think, so far?

Well, I think it goes to show, probably based on my last answer, the resilience piece, but I think that's such a classic buzzword. It gets thrown around so much in every kind of recruitment interview or anything, but I think resilience is a mad one, not just in kind of what my experience was like, obviously going, having a couple hiccups along the way to actually securing, you know, what I want to do in the long term. But actually in the role itself, I think a lot of people before they get into recruitment don't realize how challenging it genuinely is. So I think the biggest thing that is massively overlooked is because you are working with people, there is always this, you know, idea that you have to kind of expect the unexpected. People have their own mindsets, they do their own things. So as much as you think you have as much control over a situation as you want, at the end of the day, you're still working with another person with their own opinion, with their own mind, that they can do anything. So I think definitely things not going your way when you— they genuinely should, or everything's in place and things not going your way, and the ability to just pick yourself up and remain really solutions-focused and just continue on thinking about what the end goal is, thinking about what you need to do to rectify it. That recruitment's definitely taught me that, 'cause I've definitely had so many situations where, you know, you've said like a candidate's not shown up to an interview last minute, or maybe everything seems like it's going your way and then someone pulls out of a process or something, and you just can't focus on that. You do have to just be so solutions-focused and so resilient to get past that. So I definitely think that is probably the biggest skill that, or trait even, that I've definitely learned over my career, particularly at Prime.

And how is that? Because personally, I think like, why I think, one of the reasons why I think sort of recruitment should be seen as a great career to go into is just because like, it does give you so much more than like sales or whatever you think comes with it in terms of like, how it can actually help you in your life. So I guess you mentioned that, it's like more of a mindset piece, which I absolutely love, but like, how is that, curious, like, how is that manifested in, like, Lizzie outside of work, or like, you're at, like, actual Lizzie, the human being? Like, how is it? Like, what have been the positives, do you feel like, as well on that? What?

Yeah, no, fair enough. I think it gives you, to be honest, it gives you such a much more positive outlook on everything. You really genuinely back yourself so much more in any part of your life. So if you, like, if something bad happens to me now, if I am hit with a situation where I have to overcome an obstacle, um, I think the mindset that recruitment's given me and, like, being solutions-focused, being resilient, genuinely just, you know, being positive and optimistic about things. Like, recruitment has massively impacted me in that. So now if I go into any situation, I can just be— I'm so much more confident going into any situation, so much more, you know, positive about any situation because I know, like, I've faced so many challenges in my job role that, you know, outside of work it doesn't really seem as bad, to be fair.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's awesome. I think that's so, that's like so useful, and I just feel like more and more young people need that because I feel like there's just so— there can be so much more weight attached with like getting the perfect grades, having the perfect grin, all these types of things. So actually dealing with adversity, things not going your own way, is only going to help you in all different areas of your life, isn't it? If you're sort of willing to look at it and go, right, what could I have done differently? Or right, tomorrow's a new day, etc. Um, so what about for you, James? What sort of comes out for you? Like, what have you taken from recruitment so far that you least expected?

I think In terms of kind of placement year-wise, the one sort of, I know you said before, kind of experience that I think recruitment has given me is being able to kind of, I guess, put myself in an environment and socialize with the founders, the co-founders, the managing directors of all these sort of clients that Prime work with. And yeah, as a placement student, that was so weird for me, kind of hearing what all my sort of mates were doing in their work. It was kind of 9 to 5 and it was that, and then you go home and that's it. And I was kind of, you know, going out with these clients and, you know, meeting with, you know, having just normal conversations, you know, at the end of— well, I think obviously we are very social people in recruitment, but, you know, having just normal conversations with business owners and managing directors, that from placement year was quite a bit of a strange experience because I didn't kind of expect it. And in terms of, I think, kind of transferring into everyday life, I'd probably say touching a little bit on what Lizzie said, kind of I'm a lot less stressed about things that just are a lot less important now. And I think I love that. I'm quite an organized and quite a— I'd say probably quite a stressy person anyway. And I think one thing recruitment has definitely given me is being able to kind of look at things and be like, right, take a step back. Is it actually that much of a big deal? Like, you know, I still get stressed about the little things, I won't deny that. But a few things, you know, I think that's the main thing. You know, you have to kind of prioritize not only sort of tasks, but also what's worth kind of committing a lot of mental time to as well.

Yeah, love that. So I guess what I want to find out from both of you now then, so obviously because I'm sure you communicate this to the sort of people that you speak to about, um, recruitment, which is obviously this whole first year in recruitment, right, which is sort of typically described like it'll be the hardest year of your life, you're gonna face so many different challenges, all these types of things. So I guess like for you, James, I know obviously it's been sort of a part 1 and a part 2 now, and part 2 is going to be like you full-time cracking on, et cetera. But like, if we were to put sort of all your experiences so far together, your placement and sort of where you are now, I guess what have been like some of your biggest challenges then so far that you've had to sort of work through just to paint a real picture of like what people can expect and some of the challenges that they might expect. So like what have been one, some of the biggest challenges that you've had to work through and how have you been working through them so far?

[Speaker] Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to what Lizzie said in terms of people are gonna do their own thing. I came into recruitment very much a social kind of guy, you know, I'm happy to be the center of attention, I feel like I can talk to anyone, but that's only going to kind of get you so far, and you know, picking up the phone is obviously the first sort of hurdle, and then once you've done that, there's only so much you can really control. So for me, a little bit, it was the kind of constant rejection, which I don't think I was used to, because I'd never, you know, I worked in a restaurant before this, so people came to me to eat food, you know, it wasn't, I didn't have to sell anything, so I think that the rejection for me was a little bit tough because it kind of probably knocked my ego a little bit, admittedly. And as well, I think on that, the problem was I was very nervous in terms of kind of getting on the phone straight away. So I kind of hide in the corner or I kind of move away from my desk. So I wasn't actually getting any help.

What were you nervous about?

I don't know. You don't want to say the wrong thing. And looking back, I feel a bit silly, but I don't know, I just think, you know, it's that risk, I think, of getting rejected. You know, what happens if they do say no?

Then what?

You're kind of on the spot and you don't know what to say. And that for me was the biggest, the biggest challenge. And, you know, that not only sort of occurs on a phone, but also when you've got people booked in for an interview or, you know, for a prime training day or whatever it is, and they cancel or they, you know, they don't come. And it's just that sort of constant kind of repeat rejection for me early on, which was, which was tough. Now I'm, I'm obviously controlling it earlier on, so it's— I'm putting more responsibility on me. In terms of the control piece, so it happens less, which is good. But yeah, that rejection really kind of knocked my ego a little bit, I think.

Yeah, I definitely would say that was one of the biggest things for me because people didn't tell me that that would be involved, like how much rejection you would get. And it doesn't look like every time you pick up the phone, someone's going to tell you to like fuck off. That doesn't happen. It might happen every now and again, but it's just like you said, being told no and it's like being pushed back and these sorts of things. But that's, it's just really valuable to be in those situations and get comfortable with them. So I guess, Lizzie, for you then, what obviously besides being made redundant or being in a difficult situation the first 2 times, I just had to work through that. I guess maybe if you could talk maybe about Prime or you could batch it all together, like what, what have been some of the challenges that you've had to work through or we can talk about, you think?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think this is, to be honest, this goes without saying. This is more, I suppose, a bit of advice, I'd say. But the biggest challenge is like understanding how hard the role is and how much effort you have to put into it. So, and we always talk to all of our candidates, obviously we recruit in sales, and so it's very similar in terms of it's hard work. And I think what potentially, if you're not 100% about recruitment or you go in without knowing exactly what you're getting yourself in for, you don't understand the amount of work ethic that is required to be successful. So I definitely say like, The biggest challenge is really understanding, like, you're going to have to put in the hours. You see these OTs you can get in recruitment, you see the quick progression that you can get. Genuinely, you can't just go clock in, clock out, do the bare minimum and achieve that. You have to put in so much for it. So I think treating recruitment as a career and not a job, that is the biggest, the first thing 100% to understand and overcome straight away off the bat. Similar to kind of what James is actually saying, getting on the phone early, 100% think that if you can just get rid of that fear straight away, you're the whole role is on the phone pretty much, especially at the start. So just get it over with. And then genuinely, it's so much, although it's so, it can be really daunting to obviously do calls in front of like your manager or do calls in front of your colleagues who, because you sometimes think if the room is kind of quiet and you might be like that.

Yeah, yeah.

And you think, oh gosh, you feel really awkward on the phone, but genuinely it's actually the best way to learn because you can do a call and then hang up the phone and then you can talk about it. What went well, what didn't go well, what can you do next time? And I think The one really key thing, actually, because a lot of the time when I was first starting in recruitment, when you get off the phone with someone and sometimes maybe your manager might ask, okay, what did you find out this? You're like, I didn't even ask that question. So asking really, really good questions and knowing what you're missing, I think it's so, so crucial. So definitely think the biggest challenge is understanding how hard it is and that just being willing to put in the hours, put in the work, getting on the phones and then just asking really, really good questions on that and being inquisitive, like having a really continuous improvement mindset, I suppose, wanting to actually learn and improve. So not being afraid to do calls in front of other people because it is genuinely the best way that you learn, I'd say.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

I love that.

So just really quickly, like, on this, on the work ethic piece, so like, Lizzie, what on average, like, what, what, like, how long are your days on average? Like, let's just paint a real picture here. It's like, is it like 8 till 6? Like, what we talking? I know it'll vary, but on average, what would you say?

Yeah, well, core hours, 8 till 6, um, but to be honest with you, like, you have to be flexible. So for example, yesterday I was prepping a guy at 7:45 PM just because he works all day, um, but he's a great candidate and I wanted to do it. So, um, yeah, you do— it's 8 till 6 core, but you just— that is, you have to be flexible with that. You have to understand that you sometimes do have to put in a bit more. Um, and obviously the thing is with that, like, what I'd always describe recruitment as, it's high reward, but you just have to work for it. So if you are aren't afraid to work long hours, and if you are willing to do it, then that's absolutely fine. I think the biggest thing though, despite it being those long hours, is that you genuinely— it's so much fun, and I don't want to kind of missell it. It's just you go in and you're just working absolutely crazy.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, so fun.

Yeah, but you are having so much fun. Um, so, but yeah, it is, it, that's, it is long hours. Like, yeah.

And is that how you— is that like— I know every business is different, but like typically what, on average across the board? That's what it typically looks like, or?

Yeah, I'd probably say typically in recruitment, yeah, you will be expecting that, like 8 to 6. I mean, sometimes it differs, 8:30 to 6, en, whatever, but yeah, typically you can be expecting those hours, I reckon.

Okay, cool. So, and James, would you share that as well in like the places outside of London, Manchester? I know some places will vary, but just to paint a real picture of like work ethic and working hard, like what does that actually look like?

I think obviously the level of work ethics needed, but I think it's important to remember kind of why you're doing it. Well, first of all, you're working in a role that is only involving people essentially. So you kind of have to accept that you're always going to be working on someone else's schedule and someone else's calendar. So that's the first thing. And I think the other thing is also kind of why you're doing it. So, you know, you're not doing— Lizzie's not prepping a candidate at 7:45 because she wants to be prepping a candidate. You know, it's more than that, I think. And You know, I think that's why the kind of motivations, obviously, here a lot is really important. So I think as long as those two things are kind of understood, I think that's probably the main thing I would add on that. But, you know, the main point being you're in a role where you're working around people, so you kind of have to accept that that potentially might be part of the role. You know, other people work, other people have commitments, and your job is to kind of facilitate that, I guess.

Sure. So before we go into like I want to get sort of advice from both of you on like interview tips and these types of things, but really quickly, James, if you could just talk a bit about this because you mentioned it and I know this is something that we spoke about that both of you really wanted to talk about because you speak to a lot of your sort of graduate entry-level people about it, is that motivation. So I guess what, so if I'm listening to this and I'm considering recruitment, I'm early on in my journey, like I guess both of you said it's around understanding why you're doing it, I guess, and to remain motivated. Yeah, so what does that— like, I don't know, I guess like talk to us a bit about that. Is it that I need to be really clear on, like, have some really clear goals? Could be financial goals, could be other personal goals, or could be, I don't know, wanna buy something or whatever. Like, what are you typically talking to people about and why is this important, do you think?

I think, well, for me, the one thing that I always kind of phrase it as when I'm speaking to candidates is you need to be motivated by the things that you can get out of recruitment. So whatever it could be, that's then what has to, you know, that's probably going to be the right motivation for you. So don't kind of choose your motivation based on recruitment. If what you can get out of recruitment, whether that be progression, commission, you know, satisfaction obviously of working with, you know, placing people into roles, whatever it might be, that's then what the motivator should be. And you don't need to be motivated by all of them. And for me now, progression's probably my, my biggest motivation. And, you know, I think my sort of demographic, we jump on trends, we jump off trends, we get bored, you know, we want constant progression. And And for me, that's the biggest thing at the moment. But I think sometimes people kind of think, you know, they need to choose their motivations to align with recruitment. You can literally just Google, you know, what are the incentives in recruitment? What can a career in recruitment offer me? And if you find that you kind of match up to them, then, you know, potentially recruitment is the career of choice. Hence kind of what I did with, you know, with my placement. I wanted ideally marketing. Was I going to get quick progression commission out of marketing? Probably not. And I found that in recruitment and now I love it. So I think that's probably the main kind of thing I would say is look what recruitment can offer you and if you think it matches what you're motivated by then, you know, potentially it is the right career for you.

Yeah, nice. And I think that these things can change, can't they? But we sort of want to highlight if you're putting in the work then you need to have some motivators because there's just way, way more easier jobs that you can do that don't require you prepping candidates at quarter to 8, you know what I mean?

It's too hard not to be motivated.

Exactly. So Cool, so look, let's go into sort of advice then and things that you've learned maybe, or the sort of advice that you give now. So I guess Lizzie, for you then, obviously James mentioned around how competitive it is to get a placement. I'm sure it's just as competitive for like entry-level roles or graduate roles. So like, I guess firstly, like, what would be your maybe like number one tip or two top tips for people that can, I guess, help them stand out in the interview process or at least give them the best possible chance of getting interviewed or getting seen? Because I'm sure it is really competitive. So like, what comes up for you there for people listening on that?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think my best advice probably would be utilize LinkedIn. I always go on about this all over my LinkedIn, but I'm a massive advocate for it. I think that particularly in the market that we're in right now, like me and James probably speak to a ridiculous amount of candidates on a day-to-day basis and it is hard to stand stand out. But when, if you apply to a role, if you then find out who the recruiter is, the hiring manager, connect with them on LinkedIn, message them, utilize your network because it really makes you stand out. It shows that you're so committed to getting the role. So I definitely think like to any graduate wanting to get into it, get, make sure you've got LinkedIn first of all, and make sure that you actually use it. So that's connect with people in the industry that you want to get into, to connect with, you know, people in recruitment that you want to get into that you can genuinely learn from. When you apply to roles, connect with people straight away, message them, tell them that you've applied, tell them why why you're interested in it. You know, just utilize that because LinkedIn is not only a great place to get noticed through those methods, but you can learn so much from it. And that kind of leads on to the second point. But I'd always say do more. And so if you think about like the average person applying for a role, they probably make a CV, apply for the role, and then fingers crossed, fingers crossed, and hope that they get a response. Do anything that you can outside of that. So that's not just kind of trying to get noticed on LinkedIn, but it's also doing other things like really reading up on the industry, making sure that you're fully immersing yourself in your job search. And reading books, listening to podcasts like this, anything really that can enhance your skill set. Because the more you go in prepared then to an interview, or the more understanding that you've got of the role or the career path that you want to get into, you just come across so much more credible and so much more committed to getting into it. So that would be my thing. I'd definitely say use LinkedIn, genuinely utilize it, and do more than the average person applying for a role.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, because it is weird, isn't it? I mean, I didn't go to university, but when I, like, my perception of LinkedIn was like, you go on there to get a job. That's it, basically. But I think especially if you find that maybe going into like, yeah, tech sales or— I've just lost Lizzie. But yeah, she'll come back. But I guess what I was going to say was like, particularly like this, if you end up sort of looking at sales opportunities, James, like, yeah, like there's what a better way to showcase what you're about by like showing like you're doing that with your job search, you know what I mean? Like if I'm popping up in your DMs and going, hey, like, you may have seen my application, I know you're busy, but you're showing that you're following up, you're being proactive, and these are the types of things that you might end up doing when you actually land the job. So yeah, I guess, yeah, get your two tips, but feel free to add on to what Lizzie said.

Yeah, well, I was going to say, like, if you cold-called a candidate and all they saw was a phone number on their phone, you know, it's 50/50 whether you answer it because it's just a phone call. So if you're creative with your kind of outreach and you send them, like you say, you know, a quirky message on LinkedIn, like they could do to you, you know, it works both ways. You draw attention. And I think, you know, in terms of kind of things that I think I'm doing quite big at the moment in terms of kind of just messaging candidates on LinkedIn, I think the fact you can make it personal straight away, and, you know, sometimes even without a phone call, you know, just go straight in with a message. Look, I've received your application. I come straight to your LinkedIn profile because I can, because it's, you know, easily accessible. Let's book a call. And I think it's just about, you know, and it works both ways. You know, we have to be creative with our outreach, obviously. I'm sure a lot of people would have seen Lizzie's videos on LinkedIn, but I know she gets a lot of, you know, a lot of traction through them because she's being creative. And so there is no reason why, you know, candidates shouldn't do the same thing and apply that to a job search.

Yeah, absolutely. What would your top tip then be for people to stand out, get noticed, get that interview?

It's that, for me personally, it's the follow-up. And so make the application bare minimum, and then what are you doing after that to separate your application from you know, in some cases hundreds of others, you know, in terms of the roles that we recruit. LinkedIn, you know, even kind of, you know, viewing my profile on LinkedIn, and I— and if I've seen the application in my inbox and I've got a few calls to make before, and then they view my profile, I'm automatically more inclined to think, right, they're switched on, you know, they're looking at me and things like that. So just, just think about kind of what you— you make the application, and then what's that kind of first step to really grab attention, um, after that? And simple as simple as viewing, viewing a profile on LinkedIn is probably the easiest and the most quickest way to grab attention off a recruiter for sure.

Yeah, so like, yeah, so be organized, maybe like you want to keep track of these things. Yeah, as I'm sure both of you learning, like the money's in the follow-up in recruitment. Like that's where you're not always going to get through to like the person you want in that first time. It's always like, I mean, in my first year in recruitment, my nickname in the office was like Hishem the Hounda, which is a bit savage, but I would just, I was just like, right, well, I'm not I back myself that when we do speak, I'm going to make it a good experience. But yeah, you just got, you just got to keep at it and you've got like, you've got to approach that with your job search, surely. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and it will get noticed. Um, cool. So Lizzie, good to have you back. That's all good. But basically what I wanted to, um, I think she might have frozen actually. It's fine. Yeah. James, let me come to you then. So I guess, so you've spoken about how grads can get noticed, I guess. Like, why don't we then get like, okay, so I've done that, I followed up, I've stood out, I've been creative. What about like your top tips for me at actual interview? Would you say like, what are the common things that maybe sort of entry-level or grads typically go wrong where you sort of typically help people make sure that they don't make those sort of mistakes a lot of people make? Like, what comes up for you there? Maybe like top 1 to free tips on the interview side of things?

I think the first thing I'd say is you're not expected to have experience, direct experience as a grad.

You'll, you will hear horror stories of, you know, going through 5 interviews and then got told, yeah, these like these not academy things, these are like the little, um, assessments where you're like, yeah, you pitch in front of like loads of like, yeah, okay.

Sometimes I think in terms of that it might be more maybe the, the company you're applying for than actually yourself, but Yeah, I think as a grad, the most attractive things that, you know, and I'm speaking pretty much as one, um, the most attractive thing that I think we have is we're extremely driven and we're extremely keen to learn. So that's got to be the first thing, you know. You're coming from a background like myself, let's say hospitality, you don't know recruitment, but you've got the right sort of soft skill set to do recruitment. And so I think the first thing is definitely kind of get across that you've got a foundation, you know, you've got transferable skills. Now you want to apply that and obviously then grow in recruitment. And I think the other one is definitely motivations. That's got to be, you know, massive.

Um, what, what, what do we— what do I— what is it? Has it got to be more than like, I want this job because I want to want money? Like, what, what are you sort of coaching these grads to like think about, communicate?

I don't think it does need to be so— well, it can be, but I don't think it always does. You know, it's attractive to a hiring— you know, if you're running a business where the targets are rewarded by progression or commission, you know, it's kind of attractive for a hiring manager to hear, just to let you know, I'm going to do everything I can to earn commission. Because how do you earn the commission? You hit your targets. So it's kind of like a two-way thing. You know, the candidate is getting rewarded with what they're looking for, the commission, and then obviously the hiring manager is obviously growing his company because the staff are, you know, growing their company— sorry, because the staff are hitting targets. So I don't think it always needs to be deeper than progression or deeper than commission. The main thing I'd say on that though is you need to have reasons. Everyone in the world can say they're motivated by money, but why are they actually motivated? What do they want to buy in a month, 2 months, 2 years, 3 years?

Anchor it to something. Yeah, anchor it to something. Sorry, yeah, good example.

I was going to say a good example we had recently at one of our training days at Prime was we had a candidate who said he was really motivated by money and that the long-term goal is to have a house that in the kitchen has an island. So an island in the middle of the kitchen.

So really specific.

Yeah. So, and it sounds kind of, you know, you might think, why are you thinking that far ahead? But that's the sort of person that will really work hard because they have, you know, 10-year plan.

Actually, like, have thought a bit about like what they— yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And, you know, it can be as little as, you know, as much, you know, I want to go on a, I want to go on a summer holiday after, you know, after the pandemic and sort of everything's back to normal. I want to go on a summer holiday. You know, that's a short-term goal. And people who know exactly what they want to spend their money on are more likely to go and get it. I think if you're there just to earn money to live comfortably is quite a common one. Well, what does that really look like? You know, how much money do you actually need to do that? And yeah, that would be my main thing on the motivations is having kind of actual examples as to why you want to go and get it.

Yeah, no worries. So look, I've got two final questions for you basically.

Yeah.

So before I ask you to get your honest thoughts on like why you believe more people should consider recruitment as an actual career choice, not just an accident, I just want to get— obviously, like you said, graduated this year. Like, a lot of recruitment businesses want to hire people like you, right? Your age group, etc. So what I want to find out from you, and you can talk about from your own perspective and also like just your friends and just obviously speaking to graduates, um, day in, day out, like, what type of recruitment business do these people actually want to work for? Do you know what I mean? Like, what actual benefits excite them? What actual benefits, like, make them, like, really excited about working for a particular company? What actually resonates with them? Because I think it's just so easy to go down the cliché route of, like, right, we're gonna get you trips to Ibiza, you can get the Rolex, you've got the money, all this. But, like, what in your— like, what is it that people want your age and below? What people coming through, do you think?

I, I'll, I'll stand by the point of we will get bored quickly in my— in terms of, in terms of kind of having a, having a long-term plan. As I said, you know, we jump on, you know, myself included, you jump on trends, you know, whether it's a TikTok trend, an Instagram, whatever it is. And, you know, I think it's natural to get bored. It's probably a good thing, you know, you want to be progressing. And, you know, you'll be in, you know, an entry-level role for 6 months, you'll want to progress to the next level, you want to kind of keep moving on. And she's back again. And yeah, but no, I think, I think the main thing is probably just that drive is You know, the progression, I think— and I can't speak on behalf of, you know, every graduate at my age, sure— but I think the main thing that has to be on offer is the progression. Because with the progression comes all the other incentives, you know, it comes with the lunch.

So when we— so when we say progression, right, like, what does that actually— like, what, like, what we— like, what does— what does that actually mean? Like, what do they want? Is it they want— they want to be able to tell their mates that they're a manager? Is it they want to manage, lead people? They want to help? Like, what is— what actually is it? I know it will be different for different people, but typically what is it that they want out of progression? Because it's just a— it can cover a lot of things, can't it?

Yeah, I think— I said, I don't know if Lizzie wants to add on to this because I know she's back and forth in this, uh, in the call. But no, I think the main thing for me on that point would be tailored progression.

Okay, tailored progression.

Yeah, so have a progression plan. That's absolutely, you know, have a, have a straight line to director level, but have different kind of branches off of that. You know, what, what are you going to do for someone when they get to, like you say, a management position, but they don't want to manage people. Okay, well, could they manage something else? You know, could they manage— you know, tailor the progression, I think, would be the main thing. Not everyone's going to be attracted to the same role. Not everyone's going to, you know, want the same role. And there are obviously different kind of routes, more sort of the BD side or more the, you know, the people management side. But I think the main thing on that would be having tailored progression. You know, what are people good at? What, what are— what is this person's strengths? How can we make a role? Or how can we kind of you know, tweak the role a little bit to work to their strengths and in their favor.

Um, yeah, okay. So just, yeah, just making sure that like you always, you always make him feel like this entry-level talent is moving forward basically. Yeah. And you're pushing for those new things. Cool. So Lizzie, good to have you back. We're all good. So basically the last two questions I have, the one I just asked James, which I'd love your thoughts on, is basically what I want to know from your perspective Obviously there'll be countless recruitment businesses that want to attract people like both of you and obviously the graduates and entry-level talent you speak to on a day-to-day basis, but I just wanted to hear like your honest thoughts on like what do people like you, your age group, etc., like what do they actually want from their employers? Like what actually excites them about a recruitment business? Because like yeah, it's easy just to shout about the cliché incentives, you know, like the money, Ibiza trips, all this, but like what, like obviously James went progression, but I don't know if you wanted to add anything like, what is it that these people are actually driven by? Like, what is it that they want out of their employers?

Yeah, sure. I actually, um, it's funny you say that because I recently did a post on LinkedIn about company culture, and it's similar to what you're saying there. A lot of people think that, you know, grads just look at companies and they think, oh, perfect, like beanbags and ping pong tables, that's exactly what I want out of my, out of my recruitment career. But it's not. I think similar to, like, to add on to what James is saying, 100% think progression is so important. I think, um, graduates want to see that they're not going to be stagnant. They want to see that they, whatever they do in their career now is genuinely going to add up to build out a genuine long-term career. So I think never being stagnant and always moving up is something really, really important. And it's also really motivating. And I think also being in an environment where you genuinely think not just for your professional growth, but your personal growth as well. So I think being in an environment that fosters like progression and development. So, and by that I mean a really good training program where you're not just kind of thrown in the deep end, given a phone and some numbers in a database, like, go and make some calls and make some placements. Like, you're genuinely going to be trained up and given all the support and all the resources that you need to be successful. So I think a really clear training plan and development plan is so, so crucial, particularly in recruitment, where it is so difficult. And genuinely, when people do say, like, it's the hardest 6 months, the first 6 months, the hardest 6 months of your life, it genuinely can be if you don't have the support. So I think somewhere that gives you support and like fosters high progression, high growth, is so crucial. So I definitely think being started off on the right foot is 100% what people look for. And then with that comes that progression, with that comes earning potential. But I think, yeah, starting off on the right foot, 100%.

Yeah, nice. Yeah, so businesses need to really make sure they've got a clear progression plan, and that can be just in so many different ways, can't it? So I think that's— I feel like sometimes that's where smaller growing recruitment businesses can miss a trick because they feel like they're not big enough to offer progression. But there's so many different ways that you can offer that, isn't there? And promote people in different ways and these things. So, okay, cool. So look, the last question to wrap up then, Lizzy, I'll come back to you. So what— so I want to find out from both of you firstly. So obviously we always hear recruit— people fall into recruitment as an accident, right? Um, I do feel like that sort of needle is definitely changing a bit. Um, I was in a small percentage of people that generally just— I wanted to get into recruitment because I wanted to become a better, more all-rounded salesperson coming from a transactional insurance sales background. So like, one, Lizzie, are you finding more people that you speak to are going, Lizzie, I actually want to get into recruitment? Just interested in your thoughts, honest thoughts on that. And then two, I just want you to share like why you feel more people, more graduate entry-level talent, should be considering recruitment as a career choice, not just an accident.

Yeah, I definitely do think actually people are more interested in getting into recruitment as a career because I suppose my perception of it is I think people are starting to understand really that recruitment, there shouldn't be this like negative perception of recruitment where you are just kind of a salesperson just pushing people into roles and things like that. I think a lot of people are starting to realize it is, you know, a lot more challenging than that. There's a lot more to it and you can have, you know, massive impact on your career as well as someone else's. So I think I've definitely seen, I think a lot more people are interested in recruitment as a career of choice. In terms of why people people should consider it more as a career of choice rather than, I suppose, this perception of falling into it. Because I definitely think there is that idea of people do fall into recruitment, I think particularly because the barrier for entry, like, it seems to be a little bit lower potentially than other, um, industries where, you know, you don't necessarily— there's not a degree in recruitment, there's not any specific skills that you need to get into it. As long as you like have that drive, you can. So I think, um, there is that kind of preconception where, I don't know what else I'll do, I'll just do recruitment and see if that, if that works out. And the people should genuinely see it as a career of choice because, like, similar to what me and James have been talking about, there's so much progression in it. It's not just a job, you can genuinely— it's— I don't think I've seen any other kind of career path where you can start right from the bottom and then get promoted so like twice in a year, or like less than that, really, really quickly.

Down to your work as well, like completely down to you. That's the thing.

Exactly, completely down to your merit. It's not just, okay, private Lizzie's been working here for 5 years now, I think she's due a promotion. It's like, oh my God, Lizzie smashed all her targets, or James has smashed all his targets. Yeah, like he's hit his promotion target. So it's not— there's no other career where genuinely down to your work and down to your merit, you can just progress and go as far as you want to go. So there's no kind of limit there. And also to work in an environment that is so fast-paced, so fun, you know, the earning potential is there as well. Again, like it goes with that theme of there's no limit. And I just, I couldn't imagine being in any other kind of career where you just aren't capped at all. You can just work really, really hard and get so much out of it. So people need to realize that. If you want a career where your hard work genuinely pays off, then recruitment is the one for you.

Yeah, like when I had no idea what I wanted to do and then landed my first sales job, I was like, oh my God, like, why would I ever work in a job where I could put all my all into it and the person next to me could just like half-ass it and we get paid the same? There's just no way that I'm ever going to be in that type of environment again. Yeah. Okay, love that. And then James, for you, why like, one, do you feel like, have you been hearing more people go, oh, I actually want to get into it, or I've been interested in it? And two, yeah, why do you feel more people should consider it as a career choice?

I think definitely, yeah, even from when I started placement, I'd say I'm speaking to more people that are saying, you know, okay, so the first question I'm gonna ask, you know, what sort of roles are you applying for? You know, specifically recruitment. They know exactly why they want recruitment. I think that comes from, you know, the sort of work you're doing, what, you know, what Lizzie's doing on LinkedIn, you know, people are a little probably more educated on it now. Um, I'll be completely honest, I had no— I wasn't big on LinkedIn. Yeah, I didn't say big on it. I didn't use LinkedIn a lot before placement year. I didn't really go on it. I didn't know the recruitment scene.

Um, you need to definitely need to change that, by the way. They need to—

yeah, no, I agree.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I, I was— I think I'd done like one post on my LinkedIn, and that was when I got my, my gold DAV, and I put like a selfie on there, and that was literally it. Um, but I think, like you say, now I think more and more people are inclined to go on LinkedIn, and I think that's through placement. Look, for example, you know, me doing a placement in, in recruitment, I was telling all my mates, you know, I'll look at my LinkedIn post, I've just said it, you know.

Yeah.

And people kind of gradually, gradually use it. Um, but I think, I think yes, definitely people are now more choosing it as career of choice because I think it's now just become, you know, everyone in recruitment is saying, you know, why would you not choose it? And there isn't— no one's actually coming up with— I'm seeing a lot of reasons to choose it, I'm not really seeing many reasons as to why to not choose it. You know, if you're motivated by progression, by money, you know, by working in a fast-paced environment, you will get that in recruitment, so you will choose to work in recruitment. And I think in terms of kind of— just remind me what the second part of that question was.

No, you pretty much— it was more about like why people should consider it as a career.

I mean, I could obviously, you know, echo everything that Lizzie said. The main thing I would say in terms of grads is it's kind of like, you know, imagine working for 3 years at uni, you know, working all day every day and getting, you know, or, you know, failing. You'd be gutted, you know. You work hard to get good results, to get, you know, to get a first at the end of your 3 years. You work hard in recruitment, it's exactly the same, you know. You work hard, you'll hit your targets, you'll get promoted. And it really is as simple as that. There's no discrimination in terms of when you've joined or, you know, how long you've been there, or, you know, if someone else is going to get promoted at the same time. It is literally, if you're working hard, you will see the results, you know. There is— I, I, I find it hard to believe there's any business that probably doesn't reward you know, in recruitment that doesn't reward targets like that.

Yeah, fair. Right, I know I said that was my last question, but I'm gonna ask you both one more, okay? So Lizzie, I'll come to you first. I want you to share your top 2 tips on how to survive— I see, I know you're still going for this— but how to survive and thrive people's that first year in recruitment or first 6 months in recruitment.

Okay, um, I suppose, do you know what I'd say? Work really hard, just get your head down and work for it. No one is going to make you do things. The way I always look at it is if I— every time I pick up my phone or every time I open my laptop, I can literally make money or I can literally progress or hit my targets. No one's really going to tell you to do that. So you need to have that drive and that work ethic to do it. So that would be the first thing. Just work really hard, do it, and you'll see results 100%. Second tip, I'd probably say is just be solutions-focused as well. So similar to what I kind of said at the beginning, actually, don't get knocked back too much by things that happen. Just accept that, you know, you're in a role where, you know, you are going to face challenges, you are going to hit loads of obstacles. Just accept that early on. So then when you do actually hit the obstacles and meet the challenges, you can just be solutions-focused, focus on what you actually need to achieve and what you can do to rectify that, to then go and overcome that. So that would be it. Work hard and be solutions-focused.

I've got James sent you top 2 tips to survive and smash those first 6 months.

Yeah, I'd say don't be afraid to make mistakes. Um, it is, you know, as Lizzie said, there's no degree in recruitment. Rarely have people done recruitment before graduating, whether it's, you know, like a placement year. I am seeing that a little bit more now. And don't be afraid to make mistakes and want to make mistakes in front of other people, or you genuinely will not get any feedback. And I probably learned that the hard way, but, you know, now I'm you know, more than happy to kind of— even now, you know, I sit opposite my line manager Kyle, who I know obviously you know quite well. And even now he'll still say, you know, oh, this is a call you haven't done before, you know, do it in front of me, you know, stay in your seat and do it. And I think naturally we all kind of like to walk around and stuff, but, you know, even 16 months into the role, you know, he still wants me to be in front of him so he can kind of coach me. And that leads on to the second one. So the first one is make mistakes, and the second one is be coachable. And, you know, accept that you're gonna have the soft skills, you know, a lot of people will have the soft skills for recruitment, you know, whether from hospitality or retail or whatever they've done. But, you know, be prepared now that you've got to kind of take all those soft skills and learn a lot more in terms of not only, you know, kind of about yourself but also about the industry, you know, how it works and stuff. Be prepared to, you know, to be molded into a little bit, you know, well, not molded yourself, but be prepared to be coached, you know, from, I suppose, the soft skills level to, you know, a B2B kind of recruiter level. And, you know, take on advice, make the mistakes. And I suppose those two have to work really closely together. I think if you do one without the other, then, you know, you'll probably find you won't grow as quickly. And so don't be afraid to make mistakes and, you know, be coachable when you are getting feedback on the mistakes you've made.

Nice. Yeah, I think I would just add, look, I would just add, like, you should— you've got to be someone that, like, takes responsibility. Like, the quicker you, like, stop pointing the finger and going, ah, 'Like, that hasn't worked because of this,' or whatever, like, the better, basically. So, like, yeah, all the things that you said, and then just be willing to take full responsibility of, like, things going wrong, not going so well, um, instead of being in, like, a victim mindset. Um, Lizzy Jane, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for, uh, coming on, sharing. Excited to see how, uh, both your careers evolve. And, um, yeah, big thanks for being involved in this series.

So thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.