Early on in recruitment series | Parul Singh from Manhattan Partners

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm really pleased and excited to be joined by Parul Singh, who is currently a software development consultant for Manhattan Partners. Parul graduated from the University of Manchester in 2018, which is when she then joined the recruitment industry. And for the past 3 years, she's been involved actively in the tech recruitment space. She's extremely passionate about mental health, diversity, inclusion. She'd been on her own journey on building her brand, and she's even kickstarted her own journey in learning how to code in 2020. Parul, thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Hishem. Um, it's a, it's a first for this one. I've been listening to your podcast for, um, like the last year or two, so it's a bit surreal to come full circle.

I'm excited to talk about your story, and I think where I always like to start, really interested to hear your thoughts on this question, which is, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

I know you always ask this to people at the start, and I think people, I think, have quite different opinions on it. So I think from my personal perspective, where a lot of my successes come from is being genuine with the relationships that I have built. So I have hiring managers from really well-known companies that I just literally WhatsApp, like we're friends and we'll share funny videos and we're just like, hey, let's catch up over coffee. And they always say that it just feels so genuine. They're the people that end up coming to you and building the long-term relationships. And if you try to do it and it's not genuine, people can see right through it. And I think also having a really strong set of personal morals is so, so important because I know that the industry can sometimes have a bit of a reputation of being a little bit shady. So I think if you keep chasing kind of the short-term wins and ignoring some of your core morals for that quick success, I do believe believe it will be like short-lived. So I would rather miss out on something small now and to then build something greater like in the future. And I think being supportive of people around you. Yeah.

So building long-term relationships, doing the right thing, knowing what you stand for, what, what— yeah, yeah, what you don't stand for, and, and sticking by that. Okay, love that. So Obviously, I don't wanna say this is like gonna be slightly different 'cause I don't think that's the right thing to say, but couple of things that me and Parel really wanted to speak about. So bit of context, Parel reached out to me and just gave me a, just, I think back to what you were saying, like you were just really upfront and honest, authentic, and just said, look, Hishem, listen to the podcast. I've been on a journey myself with my mental health and other things that I'd love to be able to share. For people that hopefully it could help them with their own journey. So obviously a couple of things that we really wanted to talk through in this episode, which was one, your own journey with your mental health and how that's impacted you, and then how you've used that to now obviously be really passionate about helping others. Obviously talk about, um, building your brand, which is obviously something a lot of, uh, modern-day recruiters want to do or know how to do. So talk about your journey with that because I know that's become a really strong part of your Um, yeah, your recruitment desk and what you're building. And then the other thing is then just to talk a bit about, really focus on, been doing a series recently on like, yeah, early on in recruitment. So just uncover like the early days of recruitment, what you went through, what you found difficult, knowing what you know now, what you'd be different. And that's sort of what we're going to be focusing on today. So let's just start with, I guess, like your journey, right? So like firstly, How, like, I saw that obviously, yeah, went to university, studied chemistry, right?

Yeah, yeah, I did.

So what, what, like, how the hell did you end up in recruitment then? How did that happen?

I'm gonna say the same thing 99.99% of people who are in recruitment say, literally just panic of being out of uni for like a couple of months. I was like, hey, chilling, like, living my best life, and I was like, oh no, I'm running out of money and I need to get a job. So I was just mass applying on like grad jobs and things. And yeah, that's where I ended up like, like a month later, which is, which is quite interesting. One thing that a lot of people actually don't know. So I was like a little anecdote, actually, I very almost didn't end up doing it and I almost ended up being on the first season of The Circle. And so I don't know if you've watched that before. Yeah, so, well, I'm quite glad that I made the decision that I did. Yeah, I got approached through social media and I was like, this is not me at all. If you follow me on any social media, I'm not really big on it. And then I went through all the stages and they're like, hey, it's a new reality show. And I was like, I've got nothing better to do. And then I got the job offer for this job and I was like, oh, dilemma, what do I do? Do I go and do this? I was like, do I want to be a reality star? It's so not me. And then, yeah, I just told them, I was like, do you know what? Starting a real job, so I'm not going to be able to do it. But I was thinking, I can win 50K if I do this. So yeah, it was quite funny. So yeah, that was, that was the, the crossroads that I was at, like, at that point. And so that's what kind of like led me sort of, yeah, pretty much getting into recruitment, which is funny.

How, how did you— a lot of people, like, obviously you had a very specific degree, so I feel like you studied chemistry, so like, why aren't you going to take that route? So like, how did you, how did you deal with the pressures of like, just what a lot of people experience, which is like, what the hell am I going to do in my life? Like, what am I going to do? Like, how did you process and deal with that?

I was, I'm just, just one of those people. I'm, I'm really stubborn, so I was like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to give it a damn good go. And I think that's what I've done. So I guess for context, I come from a family of doctors. My mom and dad are doctors. My brother is a medical student. So I'm the outlier in the family, pretty much. But my mom and dad have always been— they're probably like, if anybody's listening to this and they've got Asian parents and they'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes they can be really like, no, no, why are you doing that? You should do medicine, you should do dentistry. My mum and dad were always chilled. I explored them, but they never pushed it, and it's so cute because I always try and explain to them what I do, and when I'm trying to update them on my life stuff and job, and they're like, "Yay, but we don't know what that means." But yeah, no, it's nice, so I think I'm lucky having the supportive family alongside to kind of navigate it as well because the first year was really hard. I don't think I'd have got through it without them.

Yeah, that's great that they were supportive because, yeah, I've listened to podcast stories where, yeah, obviously people grew up in, um, and, uh, in their, in their family, and yeah, they were just like, we're like, what do you mean you're not going to be a doctor? And that's obviously really difficult.

Yeah, right. Yeah, for sure.

What, um, so what I always like to ask is like, what What skills or experiences has recruitment given you that you least expected, do you think?

Oh, that's an interesting one, because I think it was, I think a lot of it was sort of like what I actually expected to do, but I think like organisational skills as well, because I think I've always been like pretty much all over the place and, and kind of like go with the flow, I call it like organised chaos, which actually The fact that I got an ADHD diagnosis a few months ago, I was like, that makes sense. So I think that's definitely drastically helped that. And I think being a better listener. I've always been a good talker, good speaker, but then actually learning to really listen to people and respond to what they're saying and absorbing it and being able to read body language and things like that. Obviously, back when we used to do proper face-to-face meetings, that's something that I didn't really expect to do.

Love that. Do you think it's impacted your confidence at all?

I think my— I'm not gonna lie, I think my self-confidence took a massive drop after the first, like, year and a half. Yeah, so I think it went, like, finish uni, like, start a job, and then it was like, oh no, it's not going well. And then I think over, like, the last year and a bit or so, it's kind of like going— it's kind of like going back up. But that depends on your environment, kind of how well you're doing as well, because if you keep kind of like just hitting your head against the wall and you're like, I'm not getting anywhere with this, then yeah, your confidence does take like a little bit of a knock.

Yeah, because when I've asked a couple of people that question, one of the things that they've noticed is, yeah, like confident— it's like working in recruitment is giving them a lot more confidence personally as well as professionally.

Yeah, definitely.

Okay, so that's interesting. We're definitely going to get on your journey with your ADHD diagnosis because I'm super curious about that. And I've seen so many more people open up and talk about their ADHD journey. So a couple of things. So let's just talk about, as you, as you'll know and be fully aware of, first team recruitment can be extremely difficult.

Mm-hmm.

What were some of the biggest challenges that you had to work through, overcome? Like, talk to us a bit about that.

I think a lot of it was the severe lack of, like, work-life balance. And like, for example, I was— I'd wake up at, I don't know, like 6— sorry, 5:50, leave at 6:50, and not— never really got home before like 7. You know, that was on like a good day. And I was— and I didn't go to the gym for like 3 months, I think, apart from like maybe once a week. And if you know me now, I pretty much exercise like every day, like really, really big on it. And that does like really impact you as well. I think I just became a really, really miserable person because you feel like you're trying so hard and you still don't really know what you're doing, if that makes sense. And so it's that, like, have you heard the kind of like the 4 levels of competency, like that pyramid?

Yeah, if you go through it, it'll remind me, but it's like competently, incompetent, and stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah. So like in the beginning, it's kind of like blissfully unaware of what you don't know. So you're like, the first couple of months, like, great. You're like, oh, learning new stuff, like, this is fun, talking to lots of people. So that's like inconsciously incompetent. And then you get to consciously incompetent, and that's a really difficult phase where most people are within that. I think, like, I think it's like 9 to 12 months, and that's when people drop out because they realize, like, how much they don't know and that's when your confidence takes like a little bit of a dip as well. So I think that's where like one of my challenges were. And I also got put straight into a really niche contract market and I was like, I can't do this. And I questioned myself like a lot. And I think that was a point where I could have literally just kind of like thrown in the towel and been like, no, I'm not doing this. But like I said to you, I was like incredibly stubborn. So I'm going to find my way because I love working with people. And so yeah, that was, that was one of the big things I think for me that I really struggled with.

What were some of the things, I guess, looking back now? Like, I totally get that, that's like a really difficult period when you're fully aware of like what you're not good at at the moment or what you're trying to get better at. So like, if I'm listening to this right now and I'm in that period, I'm in my first gym recruitment, like what would your advice be Timmy?

I think A, if you can also seek professional help if you need it. There's no shame in seeing a doctor, therapy. I've had CBT therapy and I take antidepressants. And so, I mean, I guess just to summarize, like, my diagnosis as well. So I have anxiety and depression and I have a history of eating disorders and also have an ADHD diagnosis from like a couple of months ago, which Some people can class as a mental illness, but even if not, then it does directly impact anxiety and depression as well. They're known as what's called a comorbidity. So they tend to exist in disharmony with each other. So, yeah, so I'm taking tablets for it and everything, which I think massively helps me. And I think seeking the support of people around you, it's really surprising to see how few managers actually have training in mental health first aid. I think, I don't want to quote the actual figure, but there is a report on Mental Health First Aid England. So people don't know how to recognize different things and you don't know if you haven't been through it firsthand. And then if you're not getting the support that you actually need from your managers and HR and like adjustments and things, then I seriously would like, there's a line that you know that you've crossed where you're like, this is causing too much damage now. There is a difference between working in a challenging job which is demanding and pushing yourself to a breaking point where your mental health is deteriorating and it's not worth it anymore. I think I crossed that line for a good 3 months and I was in the worst mental state that I have ever been and I should have left much before that. So know when you have got to that point and know that that you just deserve better than that. There's nothing that is worth your mental health, you know. If you think about it, I think a quote my boss said was like, "Don't kill yourself working in a job where they would replace you before you were buried." So just something to think about, a little bit of food for thought. So professional help, yeah, it does matter. Let's talk about it more openly. Something which looking back now, I feel like is really bizarre. Like, I had this, like, manager when I started, and like, anything that wasn't— um, oh, can you see me?

Sorry, no, yeah, that's okay. Yeah, you came out because you were saying you had— you said you thought it was really bizarre that you had what? Sorry.

Hey, are we back on? I think the connection dropped a second.

Yeah, you're back. We're good.

Yeah. Will you be able to edit that?

Yeah, that's not a problem.

Okay, cool. So yeah, just looking back, I think some of the things that I did just find like really bizarre is like any kind of, like, non-positivity was, like, not allowed so if you were like— and this has been, like, you've just started and things are just like, "I don't know what I'm doing, I'm confused, like, not getting some good responses," you know, if you were just saying, like, "Oh, do you know what? Tried to call, like, loads of people this afternoon, just not really getting through to anybody so, like, frustrating," it's like, "No, no, no, don't talk about that, positive mental attitude," but it's, like, this is extremely bizarre and this, like, whole sense of, like, false positivity I think is actually really damaging. I think we should be able to talk about, like, what the challenges are and how you can actually, like, support people so, yeah, I think not saying those, like, false positivity things like, "Oh, don't be negative," or "Don't do that," why not ask people, "Why are you feeling that way? What can I— is there anything I can do to support you?" instead of, like, "Oh, don't talk like that, you know, don't be negative, all positive around here." It doesn't help anybody, it doesn't.

Okay, so let's get into this then. Yeah, right, okay. You can tell how passionate you are about it, so yeah, I love it. No, it's good. So let's get into this because obviously I asked, like, if I'm a recruiter struggling right now in that stage that you described where you're fully aware that, yeah, you're finding things difficult, um, yeah, as you said, conscious incompetence. Obviously we went into— so it seems like what you're sharing, what you're saying is that when you was in that period and when you was going through a lot of these challenges, it coincided with— yeah, looking back now, your mental health being affected. Is that right? Is that fair to say?

Yeah, definitely.

Okay, so as you said, it seemed like you just literally was just running nonstop on the treadmill, and then you fell off it and you got to that breaking point, right? So thinking— so obviously you've had, you've had to go through that pain to realize, I never want to get to that breaking point again, or that line, right? So let's just talk about it. So knowing what you know now and going through that experience, for anyone listening that like, I don't know, maybe approach— like may not be far from approaching that line, or maybe coming up to that line, like what, like what were some of the signs maybe that you were like, looking back now, you're like, you know what, if I actually thought more about that or did more about that earlier on, I maybe not would have got to that breaking point? Like what were some of the signs that maybe, yeah, you saw or experienced, but maybe you didn't take action or didn't change anything, out of interest?

Yeah, so I think it's important to know and be able to spot your signs for whether your mental health and well-being is deteriorating, so, or you're approaching burnout. And so I think some of the things that I would probably notice about myself is losing interest in things that I usually enjoy, like exercise, reading, talking to friends and family, cooking. I'm like, oh, I don't want to do any of those things. And obviously not really sleeping very well. I was regularly using over-the-counter sleeping pills just to be able to get me to sleep. It was taking me an hour to get to sleep after getting into bed, absolutely exhausted, but the mind was, like you said, just running like a treadmill. And I was like, I just started to think that was normal and then I spoke to people and they were like, "Yeah, it shouldn't take you that long to fall asleep." Also, obviously, lack of self-care and things, abusing drugs and alcohol, that's also a really big sign. These are things that you can actually try and spot in other people as well. If you've got friends, look after them too. I think they're probably the main things that I think I I spotted, to be honest. And it's difficult to say. I think a lot of mine was environmental. I think there was very little that I could have done myself without just removing myself from that environment. There's only so much self-care, like therapy, medication, and things that you can do. But how many hours of the day do we spend working or in work? If that place isn't serving you and they're not changing and they're not supporting you, then just leave. There are places that will actually support you with your mental health, places that you feel safe and that you feel like you matter. And that's kind of where I wanted to come into this because both places have been such a big contrast. You have to know your worth and not let yourself get to the point that I did. I went on that way for 3 months. Like it wasn't great.

Yeah, so okay, so let's just talk like— I said my personal opinion is like, obviously you can't— I do feel like personally like you can't point— you can't just point the finger at one thing, I think, with this personally. Yeah, you can't just be like— you can't just be like the environment is this, which is why I feel like this. I feel like although obviously it's a huge influence, I do feel like as an individual you've also got to do things yourself to try and give yourself a better chance of feeling Environment, but if you do that work or whatever, and like, you know what, this— every time I enter this environment, when I get home, I feel terrible, or that's not serving me. So I guess what I wanted to ask you then is, obviously, for some people, they like that environment, although they may think it's not serving them, or they do think that it's really hard for them, that what they're noticing, that it could be impacting their mental health. Obviously, the, the immediate reaction isn't going to be straight away like leave.

I'm gonna quit.

Yeah, people, right?

So things that you can do. Yeah.

What, what, um, so I guess maybe you could talk about your own experience, but like, what, like, if I haven't spoken about anyone, about how I'm feeling, like, how would you approach it? Because I do think, as you said, there aren't, like, obviously a lot of companies are trying, some companies are trying to do everything they can to understand more about mental health, how they can support people.

Yeah.

But it's also a really difficult place to get more understanding in as a business, do you know what I mean? So I guess What would your advice be for someone that, like, I don't know, wants to speak to people? And I don't know, where would you go first if you want to start letting people know how you felt to try and get that support and give your environment and company a chance to support you or help you? Because that can be a really difficult period to try and talk about it to people.

I think a good, like, step to take— I know a lot of people still kind of either doing office working or hybrid— so a good first step to take is take it away from, like, the office environment. So, and with somebody that isn't necessarily your line manager, but somebody that you work with and that you're quite close to. So I think in my case, um, it was one of my— the line manager that I had, like, just before I left, like, we became, like, really good friends, and, like, we still text, like, regularly. So shout out to Mike, like, if he's listening to this. But so he, um, if I was, like, really, really struggling, we'd go out for, like, coffee, which actually, if you understood the environment and stuff, it's not a usual thing to happen, but it was really important for him to be able to take that outside of the office environment and feel a little bit more relaxed talking about it. So it's not the same as moving into a meeting room and opening up to somebody that I think you feel safe with first. If you're going straight to a line manager that maybe you don't see eye to eye, or going straight to HR, it's not going to feel natural. And the chances are that person's also struggling too, so they're There is a report done by Mental Health in Recruitment, which I can share the link with you if you want to put it in the description. And so it's a study that shows that 90% of employees in recruitment have suffered a common mental health disorder related to work. Yeah, yeah. So it's, yeah, like I said, if there's somebody else that you can actually relate to and speak to and start up that conversation. And I think if we can normalize it, like on my morning meetings now, I will just say, do you know what, I'm feeling really anxious today. I'm just like, I'm not feeling too great, not in a good headspace. Space and it opens up the floor for other people to do so. There's always going to be people that are a bit more comfortable, like I'm obviously comfortable in myself and I'm really outgoing. So if you feel like you're that person and you start saying those sorts of things, other people that are maybe a little bit more keeping it to themselves would say, do you know what, actually I was feeling the same yesterday. So you start and it is just like a snowball effect, but actually getting it going is the hard part.

What about then, I think the hard thing as well that some people may think, and obviously part of it is normalising it or feeling like you can talk about it, but if I'm early on in my recruitment journey and I'm talking to people about my mental health, that I'm finding it difficult or whatever, like what if I'm then worried about them taking that in a way of like they might then think that I can't do the job or I'm not resilient enough, do you know what I mean? I do feel like That's also part of the self-dialogue is like, if I talk about this, are they then going to think that I can't bounce back as quickly as they want me to? And I don't know, what are your thoughts on that? If I'm saying that to myself?

Do you know what? That is a really difficult one because I think I only really started talking about my mental health in my current company and obviously like we're quite small and we're all really close. So I don't have as much of a fear of somebody actually saying that. So, um, to be honest, was you worried about that? Well, what I, I wasn't because of the relationship and the culture that we have with each other, and it's extremely honest and open and supportive.

Yeah, so, but I just meant as in like in your first year when you said you were struggling, would you worried about it?

I didn't talk, I didn't talk.

Yeah, it was part of that reason. Yeah, was that because— did you think they judge you differently?

Yeah, 100%. I think it's like an unspoken thing. Like, if you think there's like 30, 40 people in an office, like, how many people are struggling mentally at any given time and nobody talks about it? And I think the common theme is that you don't want to come across incapable, you don't want to come across weak. You know, recruitment, it's like, yeah, let's just do it, come on, let's just absolutely like nail this. I'm like, yeah, it's just scary. You can't show vulnerability in any case in, like, some environments, so I feel like that is what actually prevents people from opening up.

That's the thing, that's just what I think, it just makes it so hard.

Yeah, absolutely.

You don't want to be seen, especially when you're early on, right, when you're trying to earn your stripes, you're trying to, yeah, like, do what you're trying to do, and then if you then open up and then it's not received very well, it could make it even worse, or you then don't get the support that you get. I guess, like, the other thing then that could happen is what happens then if obviously you leave the company that you're in because you feel like the environment isn't supporting you and you try to open up about it, get help, and you didn't? Like, yeah, what am I then saying when I'm interviewing with other recruitment companies? Am I saying that I left because, yeah, I had challenges with my mental health and I didn't really get support? Like, I don't know. How's that then going to play out? Is that going to make it even more difficult for me to end up getting more jobs in recruitment? I don't know.

I think you can, you can take like the core of what you've said, but just reword it a little bit. So like when you're interviewing, you can say that I am really into like kind of, you know, why are you looking to leave your current company? Why do you want to work for us? And just say that I'm looking to work in a company that has a bit more focus on and, you know, autonomy and flexibility and work-life balance, because that's where I find I truly do thrive. And it's important for me to feel like I have a purpose and I'm achieving everything that I want to be able to achieve. So yeah, I think you can talk about it, but just maybe in a slightly different way, because like we said, we should be able to normalize these conversations. But you shouldn't also feel like you have to disclose anything during the interview process. So let's say, you know, you have like ADHD and like depression, if you really wanted to, like, I think you should mention it maybe, you know, once you're like, you've signed a contract and stuff and you're kind of letting them know about things that you might need like adjustments for. And for example, I mean, like ADHD is a listed disability, so actually failing to support and give accommodations to that is a violation of the act to protect it. So again, something that people should know.

Okay, so let's talk about— obviously you went— obviously we're talking about, um, obviously your experience early on, and then obviously as we— before we start recording this, you said you sort of reached a bit of a crossroads really of like, right, is recruitment right for me? Is it something I want to carry on with? Yeah. So I guess what, what made you— obviously, obviously the company is going to be a huge factor, but like, yeah, what gave you the confidence to give recruitment another go? Because I feel like this is obviously part of the turnover problem in the recruitment industry, right? Where, yeah, young people can join the industry and then get spat back out because of loads of different reasons. One of them will be because they might be burnt out and all these types of things. So yeah, what, what made you feel like you're going to get back up and stay in the recruitment industry after your experience, which was challenging towards the end?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's been a good kind of like, like year and a half, and it was really frustrating to see that I kind of had a lot of the qualities that people had to actually succeed in recruitment, something just wasn't right. And I do genuinely think that if I hadn't have ended up with Manhattan Partners, I don't know if I'd still be in recruitment now, just because it was that kind of thing that actually saved me. So what led to me being here was, it was January 2020, really getting to a bit of a low point, and everybody calls it, like, you know, everyone's looking for a job in January, and I was like, I wouldn't do that, and then by the end of it, I was like, oh, Oh, that's me. So I messaged Julie, who's one of the co-founders, because we used to be like friends through friends, going for like brunches and stuff because she used to work for the same company I did, but our paths never actually crossed at the same time. And I remember like one of the brunches a few months ago, and she said that like she'd set up like on her own because I was asking how work was going and she was telling me a bit about it. And I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting, bit out there. So that really like stuck with me, and she was the first and only person I messaged, 'cause I was like, I kind of, I don't want to just join like another kind of like company, like I do just want to do something a bit different. And then we kind of took things from there, and I met the other co-founder and director, John, and they didn't know what the plan was going to look like. They'd only been operating for like just about like a year or so, didn't even know when they were going to make like the first hire. And, you know, it was a massive step going from like the corporate recruitment world to joining a startup where I'm basically employee number one. Outside of the founders. So that was like a massive plunge to take, but it was extremely reassuring to me to know how much they were going to support me and give me all of the flexibility and autonomy that I needed. So, I mean, I work my own hours, I take my breaks, lunch when I want, we've got unlimited holidays, I don't have KPIs, and our monthly reviews are kind of very different to what monthly reviews always look like. So I knew like really early on that I was making like a suit, like a really good step. I mean, don't get me wrong, I joined right at the start of the pandemic, so everyone was like, oh my God, recruitment has fallen apart. And yeah, I think everyone was just panicking a little bit. And but, you know, we did, we did really well in like the beginning and we've been able to like grow from there. So I'll be honest, if I didn't have this opportunity, I was starting to kind of like lose faith a little bit. But on a positive note, I've seen more of these boutique recruitment companies popping up. You'll have probably noticed it as well, and I think they're really challenging the way that people think, like how recruitment actually operates, and challenging those like traditional ways of working, which I think I absolutely love to see. So I think if you're struggling in like the environment, like the KPIs and things like that, then give a smaller company a go because it was the best decision I ever made.

So what, what would be like, so if I found myself in that position where, yeah, like I ended up getting in a really, yeah, an environment that I didn't want to be in, but I, I felt like, you know what, let's give recruitment a go. What would be in your like top 3, would be like the 3 to 4 things on like a checklist that I, that you'd be looking out for that you hopefully would think would give you a better chance of being in an environment where you can feel supported? Your mental health will obviously have a better environment to be in a better place more often. But what would be the checklist you think that people should look out for? Maybe I know it's nuanced and specific to yourself, but what comes up for you out of interest? Like, what was in your head that you really wanted to make sure this company believed in what they said, what they were going to do, that made you feel safer or more confident in giving it another go?

Um, so it was one of the things that John said when we met really early on, and he said our priority will always be our people. Obviously, we have to be profitable as a business, but we want to make people so happy that they never want to leave, and that's how I feel right now. Like, I would, as long as like I'm in recruitment, I'm gonna be here, so that rang true. And another thing was the unlimited holidays, mental health days, and sick days. So I can't even tell you like how many holidays I've actually taken now. I think I've probably used like, for what most people is like a whole year's allowance. And I've got, you know, I can still take more like the rest of the year. And again, it's not affected like my billing and like my ability to work, and I'm able to take off time to spend time with family, to go on like holidays, or sometimes I just have a day off to do absolutely nothing, which I think is really nice. It'd be great to see more companies actually. I think holiday allowance in recruitment is historically, it's a little bit lower than usual, isn't it? So it'd be nice to see, if not unlimited, then maybe like a little bit more. So, you know, maybe for somebody who wants that better work-life balance, look at those sorts of things, but actually ask about the average people take, because, you know, there's that, you know, people think that if you've got unlimited, people actually take less. So, you can actually ask for an average and whether they have a minimum as well. So, I think that's quite important. And then, like, the flexibility around remote working and choosing your hours and stuff, because I think everybody works differently and I work different hours pretty much every day. So, for me, having that flexibility to work when you want and being able to go out over lunch or being able to go to the gym and not have to worry about going there and back over an hour, I think, has been a big contributor to my mental health as well. It's one of those things you're not always going to know until you're there, but I think there's definitely there's definitely signs like those. We're adults, we should be treated like adults, and if you can't leave people to work autonomously, then either, you know, there's something going wrong or you're not hiring the right people. When you give people the power to do their own thing, they can do amazing things.

So it seems like then to me, being given an environment where you do have that autonomy, you can have more flexibility on if that's holidays, if that's when you work, like not feeling the pressures of like taking time off. Yeah, it seems like that, that's had a huge positive impact on your own mental health. So like, what, why, why, why do you think that's sort of massively helped your mental health?

Um, I think especially so going back to like having like ADHD, which I know was only diagnosed like a few months ago, but I'd really be struggling with it for like quite a while. So the way that I need to work is working in shorter bursts and taking breaks. So I use Pomodoro quite a lot, which is— if anybody listening hasn't heard of it, it's a popular time management method where you do a chunk of work, usually 25 minutes, and then a 5-minute break. You repeat that 4 times and then you take a bit of a longer break, which might seem counterproductive because you're breaking quite a lot, but it works really well for me.

I've used that before. It's really good.

Yeah. Honestly, it's absolutely classic. You can get like timers on your phone and everything, and it's really, really helpful. So I really struggle in an environment where I'm told exactly what to do and when. So a lot of companies have like admin hours and then core hours. So I don't know if that's the case with some of the people that you've spoken to as well. So it's like you've got to do calls between this time and only admin during like this time. And it can feel like quite frustrating because you just feel like you're being told what to do. And I'm not used to doing that since like being in school. And also, I think a massive source of stress for a lot of people is hitting KPIs. And even if they're like achievable, but then you're like, okay, I've done really well in this area, but I haven't booked enough client meetings. And you're like scrambling to do it. And if you start falling behind, within like the first week or two of the month. And then all that does is accumulate your stress every day until you get to the end. Then you get to your monthly review and you're like, oh no. So yeah, I think not having KPIs definitely really helps. Targets to work towards that you decide together is great, but not KPIs.

So it seems like then I feel like you've gone on this whole journey of like just really understanding how Parol works best, basically. I feel like— and you found a home that enables you to do that without worrying what your manager is going to say, or like worrying, like, you know what I mean? I feel like you've— that's what you've— you've been on that sort of self-discovery, it seems like, is what you've been on. And I think, yeah, I think it's just such a— it's such an important thing to spend a lot of time thinking about. In terms of how do I work best, what environment do I work best in. Like, they're great questions to ask yourself rather than, yeah, like you said, like feeling like— probably feeling like when you was in the previous environment, you just felt like you was always playing catch-up or running uphill to like achieve what you wanted to achieve. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. I mean, yeah, it seems like you've obviously been on such an interesting journey on Yeah, I know there'll be—

sorry, I was just gonna say, I know there'll be a lot of people out there that are probably in the position that I was in, and you just kind of like really questioning whether it's for you, and just like figure out and see like what you can actually change, because if you feel like you really enjoy it, like I genuinely get so much like joy from this job, I don't have Sunday scaries, anymore, which I think can be, yeah, it can be definitely, it can ruin your whole Sunday. You know, I don't get that and, you know, truly actually like finding like that purpose and like just like find your home, like find your niche and do something that you actually enjoy all day every day because like, yes, the money is great, but if you're going to be unhappy and it's going to cause you a lot of stress and affect your other areas of your life like your relationships and your friendships, then You can't, you know, money can't buy that.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, I think it's so easy when you in recruitment to be in a certain environment and think that everyone, every other recruitment business is the same, but it just isn't the case. So just to wrap this up then, what, what, what resources, groups, obviously I've seen, obviously you did the First Health mental— no, sorry, mental health first aid course you did.

Yeah.

So like, what, what resources could you maybe recommend, or groups that you've been part of that you found to be really helpful, if I'm someone that's on this, on this mental health journey?

Oh, okay. So I've got a few. I created— I don't know if you've heard of Wakelet before, but Wakelet is essentially— it's like, think Pinterest but for professional stuff. So you can build like different— like, yeah, it's really cool actually, and it's totally free to to use. And also I love it because they're a Manchester-based company as well, um, which is nice. So, um, I've created a board on here, um, which is a collection of mental health resources. And so there's, there's quite a lot on there, so I'd be happy to share that with you so you can put it in the description.

And it's just called Wakelet boards.

W-A-K-E-L-E-T. Yeah, so I can send you like the link.

I'm on it now, so yeah, I can, I can share, I can share that with people out. Yeah, that'd Awesome.

Yeah, I know that would be a really good one. So I think getting like, if you're like a manager or even just somebody who wants to get training in it, like Mental Health First Aid do some really good, anything from half-day courses to 2-day courses. And that was like honestly amazing. And then I shared internal training, so that's great. And if you want to do, I know people always laugh when you talk about like, oh, mental health is struggling, do meditation, but it does, it does help. It does help. I'm not going to lie. I do it anywhere from 1 to 3 times a week. So something I definitely need to improve on. But I looked at Headspace and I was like, the only option is to buy the whole year in one go, which is like £50. You're like, I don't know if I'm actually going to use it. So a really good alternative is an app called Balance. And so that's, I know on the Apple App Store, probably on Android as well, they're actually offering a year for free and it's like Headspace, but it actually tailors your meditation and mindfulness journey based on your feedback. So I actually think that's amazing. I don't have to pay. Yeah, which is fab. And then I'll read out like the titles as well, but like I've got a couple of books which I think have been amazing. So this one is The Stress Solution.

Um, okay.

Yeah, by, um, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee. So he's the guy, he's always on the telly as well. Like if you see, you know, like This Morning and stuff, he's So my mom gave me this book. So my mom's actually a psychiatrist. So really lucky in that aspect, to be fair. And so this book is really good if you like, kind of like struggle like with your like stress and kind of get into the core of like de-stressing yourself. I think I've read this one like 4 times, a little bit battered. And then another one, Atomic Habits. I love this.

It's a great book.

The Reflection of Light. Yeah, it's such a good book. So again, if you want to improve your mental health and well-being, this is on my list to actually read again. So if you're really rubbish at sticking to your habits, like I am with meditation in the morning, I think it's actually really good. I think the last one that I'd recommend is Happy Sexy Millionaire by Stephen Bartlett. Have you read this one?

I have. I listen to his podcast every week. So is it a good— I've got it on my Kindle, the book. I need to read it.

Yeah, I, so I have a Kindle, but I only buy fiction books on that. If they're non-fiction and like self-help books, I always buy them in like paperback because I like to keep them and highlight in them and like make notes.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Um, so there are a couple of like really, really good books that, um, I would actually recommend. Um, and something which I don't know if many people could actually kind of like find, but I'm basically in a few Slack communities that like specific specific to tech. So one's Manchester Tech Slack, which has got a good couple thousand, and then I'm in a smaller, like, a bit more like a private one. It's like, you know, if you invite somebody in, and we have a mental health channel in the second one, which I started, and now people talk about that, like, really, really openly, and it is the most non-judgmental and supportive space. So whether you do that with work or something outside of work, there is genuinely, like, there's not much that can actually substitute for having a supportive community around you. And most of these people I've never met. They're basically tech friends, so they're mostly engineers, DevOps engineers, managers and things. And if you pop a message on there and you're really struggling— so I asked about recommendations for therapists and people really helped me in talking about their experiences as well. So it's not necessarily like my best friends who, like, they're amazing too. But, you know, these guys and gals have been like a massive pillar of support to me. But you'll find more resources on the Wakelet board anyway. I'll share that with you.

I love that. Well, look, I think, um, obviously I know we said we were going to touch on branding and stuff like that, but I think, I think I know, I know how sort of passionate you were around talking about mental health and everything else. So I just wanted to say, really appreciate you being super honest, vulnerable in sharing the challenges, talking about your journey. And I, I mean, I'm a, I'm a, I always trying to, I always try to open the conversation around this because I think it's so important. I've been on my own journey. And I think if anyone, everyone can just get better at understanding who they are, what works for them personally, professionally, whatever, then we can all have a better chance of taking care of ourselves or knowing what can give us a better chance of, yeah, having more good days than bad days.

And yeah, absolutely.

Work's such an important part of that, and particularly in the recruitment world, it's, it's bloody tough.

Yeah, it's a hard— yeah, it's such It's a hard job. And I just thought I'd add as well, like, if, you know, if like somebody's quite early on and like you're really struggling and you just really don't know like who to talk to, like my inbox is open on LinkedIn. So like, obviously I'm not a medical professional, but kind of like been through it. So, you know, start by talking. Yeah, start by talking.

Paril, thank you so much.

Thank you, Hishem. It's been absolutely like, what an experience. Absolutely love being on your podcast. Nervous to listen to it back though, because I know like my voice grates on me like a little bit.

No worries, but thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you. Thanks for listening, everyone.