Emma Lowman - All things Business Development and the massive opportunities in the USA.

This is the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm in Waterloo. I'm in the very cool offices of Salt, and I'm with Emma Lohmann, who is the business development manager for Salt, uncovering the UK and the US.

Hello, recruitment world.

Hello, recruitment.

Hello.

This is the recruitment— this is the center of the recruitment world.

It really is.

No, look, Emma, thank you so much for joining me. I know it's We've sort of gone back and forth a little bit, haven't we, to get this booked in. Yeah, but we've got it booked in, we're here, we're ready to go, and I'm excited to uncover the Emma Lohmann. Yeah, so where I always like to start, as I was, uh, telling you beforehand, how the hell did you get into recruitment?

Well, you know, like all recruiters, I think, you know, I came out the womb and I was like, I want to be a recruiter, Mom.

Do you know, you're like the fourth person that done that. Oh my God, that wasn't original, man. That wasn't original, man.

I'm so basic. Um, no, so I— look, I'm not gonna big myself up, but I'm quite intelligent and, you know, I did really well at school, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. Didn't necessarily— I bet everyone said this, haven't they? No, I didn't go to uni.

Okay.

No.

So I thought you were smart.

I am, but I didn't know.

I didn't know what I wanted to do.

Got good grades and basically just thought, you know, I need money.

Yeah.

So I became a debt collector.

Okay, so what, you wanted to take other people's money?

So I thought, how can I get money? I just take it off people. No, so it was literally the worst job in the world. It was a call center. Yeah, debt collection. You'd sit there with a, um, headset, have like things popping up, and you'd have to basically ask people to pay debts that they've been avoiding for like 6 months. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that know those calls.

Was it like, was it like you had to like literally force them pay on the—

not forcing to pay, like, it's all about being nice to people. Like, you have to, you know, help— you have to suggest that they pay. But to be honest, it was— I think I did it for about 2 years, from when I was 17 to 19.

Yeah.

And it was like the best, in a way, like, recruitment training that I could have done, because not that they were training me anything about recruitment, but it was basically me selling, you know, trying to get people to do something they didn't want to do, which— not that we do that recruitment, but, you know, it helps.

Yeah, so it's a great grounding. It was a great grounding.

And then from that, I decided I don't want to be a debt collector my whole life, what shall I do? Um, I got a job at a really small exec search firm who worked in software sales.

Okay, so did you know about recruitment at this point? Like, what was your position?

I didn't know anything about recruitment. I think coming out of like college and not having a degree or anything like that, I knew I wanted to have a career in something, but I didn't know what I wanted that career to be. Um, and just thought, oh, you know, recruitment looks quite good. Um, but I didn't actually get a job as a recruiter. So it was a really small company, and I basically was going to be doing admin there. Oh, and you thought you was doing— no, I knew I was doing it.

All right, okay, okay, okay, okay.

There's nothing wrong with admin.

No, definitely not.

So I went in, and the reason is their resources, um, it was a really, really small company. Like, I'm talking 4 people.

Yeah, I joined the company of 8, so—

yeah, so they only hire people with degrees, and I didn't have a degree. Oh wow, straight to admin. I went to the wonderful world of admin.

So what were you doing for them? Like, just supporting them online?

I was doing like the researching side, like not actually speaking to people.

So like, doing LinkedIn searching?

That kind of stuff, yeah, exactly. And then people kept coming in to, this is, you know, meeting candidates face to face. They'd come into our office, we'd sit down, we'd interview them, and I'd be like, hi, do you want a cup of coffee? Do you want a cup of tea? And then about after a couple of months of doing that, the director said, actually, you know, even though you don't have a degree, you know, you're not a retard, why don't you actually get on the phone? And I was like, yes, guys.

Okay, um, and then how long did you do that for?

So I was there for 2 years.

Okay. And, um, I was still basically resourcing, so it was basically just a candidate-focused role.

Yeah, so they would pick up jobs in software sales, and this was like super old school. This is like before LinkedIn Recruiter.

Really?

We used to have to call—

How old are you?

28.

Okay.

I've had a lot of Botox. I've had a lot of Botox. Okay. Not a lot, just enough. Okay, go on. Um, So yeah, so this was—

we didn't have full LinkedIn recruiters. So what, how are they pulling jobs? Just like cold calls?

So they had a— they were like quite old, they've been doing it for like 20 years. They had a really good network. They— we were working with like IBM, HP, like big software companies working senior level hires. And it was really like traditional market mapping. So I'd have to go on LinkedIn, look at everyone who, you know, their competitors, put them in an Excel spreadsheet, call them at work, call them at their desk, all that kind of stuff. And it was really, really hard. Like, we used to have to stand up in front of the directors. I'm sure they're not listening, but if they are, I'm sure they won't mind. It was great, guys. It was amazing learning curve for me. Yeah, but it was really tough because, you know, we had to know everything about these big companies. And also they wouldn't settle for like, you know, you couldn't go on a job board. They wanted the best of the best. Yeah.

Yeah. So you had to stand up and do what, like, just do cold calls on that?

No, we had to stand up and recite. Like, if we were going to pitch a company, we'd have to stand up and talk about the share price, the growth, revenue, like, no, nail down yourself, everything. Otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to talk to people. And I used to go and cry in the toilet, then I'd come back and do it.

So wait, so wait, wait, wait, wait, just, just quickly on that point, just, just out of interest, like, what was the sales pitch, if you get what I mean? So the sales pitch, what was they focusing on?

So say we've got— so say we're called— so IBM used to have a portal where you could basically type in any employee and it would come up with their work mobile number. Wow. So then I don't think they have that anymore, but so say I'm trying to get hold of someone at IBM as a sales guy and I'm recruiting for X company.

Wait, wait, you had access to a portal?

It's a public thing. It was their phone. It was—

and then mobile was on there?

Yeah, because it was their work phone. It was their work mobile. All right, that was the thing. All right, it probably still is a thing now. Okay, it's not used for recruitment, it's used for like—

it's like just a sick thing.

Yeah.

Okay, okay, okay, cool.

Say I had to call up a recruiter. No, sorry, I'd have to call up a sales guy.

Yeah, yeah.

I'd have to be like, hi, Mr. John Smith, how are you? Um, it's Emma Lohmann calling from Aurum, they were called. Yeah. Um, and I'd have to be like, look, have you got 5 minutes? Um, I know you're probably not looking for a new job, but I've been specifically, um, told to approach you about this role, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And they don't, you know, usually tell you to get lost, or they go, okay, fine, who is it? And because you're in that situation, you're talking to people that are earning a lot of money, you'd have to go, well, they're this company, they do this, this, this, this, this. They go, you know, yeah, they, they basically drill you. So you'd have to know all this stuff.

Like, yes, but what, just out of interest, that, that, okay, definitely sounds—

that makes sense.

Yeah, that, that makes sense. But all I was just interested in, because I'm thinking, okay, it would just be interesting to actually understand like what these really experienced recruiters, yeah, decided to include in that sales pitch, you know what I mean?

Yeah, of course.

You said share, share price.

Well, no, so typically it would be, um, like their growth over the last sort of 3 years in terms of their finances. So they've grown by 104% year on year.

Yeah.

Um, specifically what the product did, whether they were a market leader, if they'd been in like, like Gartner's Magic Quadrant. I don't know if you know those guys, they're like an analyst report.

Okay.

If they've featured in any of that.

Yeah.

You know, you can like Google stuff about companies, it comes up with whatever. So anything like that, sort of highlights about them to try and make them say that actually have a conversation with you. Okay, cool, fair enough.

No, I was just interested in that. So how long did you do that for? 2 years? Like 2 years? Like on the phone? Yeah, like cool times, like headhunting people.

Cool times, honestly.

Is it like straight headhunting people?

Yeah.

Was you winning clients at this point?

No, I never did any. I never won any clients. Really?

Okay, so they bring the jobs, they bring the jobs, help you map out, or you map out? Yeah.

And they'd be like, we put like, say, 30 people on a list that would get that, that could get that job, and then we would have to speak to every single person on that list, and we couldn't rest until every single person had been— What was the most common objection you got? Just some people weren't looking at, you know, in sales, if they're really, really doing well and they're hitting their number and overachieving and they're going to earn like 500 grand, they're not going to leave. But those are the people that you want. So it's kind of like some people could be swayed. Maybe they're going to get, you know, whatever increase on their salary. But that's a lot of the time. Sometimes people are just like super happy and you can't force people not to be happy.

That's mad. So that was your ground. That's like, that's like the, the reason why I say that's mad is because— so what, so you'd call that as like headhunting?

I don't know if I'd even call that headhunting. I feel like if you look at exec search firms, or—

that's what they do.

Yeah, they probably do it in a— yeah, but in a more— well, yeah, I guess that— I think a lot of companies will say they do exec search, but they just kind of fluff it up. We're all doing the same thing, we're all going after the same people, you know?

Yeah, yeah. No, I just— I, again, being honest, like, I never did that.

What did you recruit in though?

Insurance. But like, I mean, I, we never— I don't— I'm pretty sure no one in the office— well, maybe one person every now and again would call someone at their desk.

See, I don't agree. I wouldn't agree with it now.

Really?

Like, I'm totally— I, I think now people have changed, the way we interact with people has changed, so I definitely wouldn't do it now. But then there was no option. Like, you couldn't add people on LinkedIn, you had to enter their email address and that kind of stuff.

You got the IBM portal, mate.

Yeah. It's a thing.

Okay, okay, mate. Okay, so that's really interesting then. So how did you get on doing that then? Like, did you— so I do well?

No, so it was just on basically filling their roles. I didn't have a revenue.

You don't get commission?

Yeah, we've got like £200.

What, per placement?

Probably. I'm— I was like 19. No, it must have been about 20, 20. No, it must have been— how old must I have been? 21 at this point.

Yeah.

So I can't really remember, but you—

but it was like just more of like—

it was probably about £200, I think, per placement. And it was actually the hardest recruitment I think I've ever done, which is the irony of it.

So once you got them on the hook, like, what's your involvement after that, just out of interest?

Was you still managing everything?

So I'd manage for the interviews and all that, qualifying them?

Yeah, like, it was a really small company. It was literally 4 people, so it's not as if we had people to hand things over to, whatever. You know, I was really, really lucky to join that company because I've got, you know, trained from 2 directors that did that, and they had nothing else with their spare time except for train me and this other guy. So you know, yeah, it was really difficult, but also I think it taught me a lot of really good, like, grounding lessons of recruitment. I think when you join a big company, you know, no matter how hard companies try, obviously we can't donate, like, give time to every single person and get them to be the way we kind of want it to be.

I think that's, that's always like—

so I used to cry every day, but it was, it was worth it.

Okay, on that point then, before we move on, two things. What other sort of like— you said that it was a really good grounding. Was there anything else that really helped you with, like, if you look back now, that like some really key— you're really glad that that happened? So you've obviously clearly got some— from day one you've got some real solid experiences getting rejected and like getting on the phone. Yeah, all that.

I think anything else, just good processes. So, you know, for me it was very, very, very process-driven. Okay.

Um, She's really organized.

So really organized. I'm very, very badly organized, so it was very good for me to do that. Also, I think, you know, the attitude of not giving up in terms of the fact that now we have way so, like, so many more candidates, so much more to choose from. But realistically, we've still got to do a good job for our clients, and they still want those top-tier people. So I think now it's quite easy to go, well, I've sent them a message, they're not coming back to me, um, Yeah, you know, and then, and then so they're not, they're not interested. Whereas I'm definitely more about, okay, you may have sent them a message, but what else have you done? Have you actually spoken to them? Can you get them to go to a coffee with this guy? Like, that was the one thing it taught me. It was like, oh, such a cheesy saying, absolutely hate it. But my old director used to say, we're not making marriages, we're just making a first date. And I like, that is so cheesy, isn't it? God. Um, but it's kind of true in a way. Like, you're not forcing people to go and take the job, you just want to get them to go and have that initial conversation. And I think if you do that, people get invested. So I think that was a good process.

Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. And then you just touched on it there, which was my second point. As you said, crying a lot of the days.

Yeah.

Difficult.

Yeah.

Why didn't you quit?

I didn't quit because I'm not a quitter.

What helped you get through it?

I think I knew that it was really good learning, like recruitment, you know, For me personally, and this is absolutely no disrespect, I don't want to come across in a bad way here, but I didn't want to go to one of like the bigger agencies like a Reed or whatever. I thought to myself, I want to do stuff with bigger fees and I want to do stuff that's more like in a headhunting sort of approach. Okay. Um, so I knew it, I knew it was going to be really horrible and, you know, no one wants to make those cold calls.

What made you want— why was— why?

I don't know, I just thought, I just thought in my head, I think I'd seen maybe, uh, like a film about headhunter or something in New York, and I was like, oh my God, that's gonna be me. No, I'm joking, it's just a dream I had. No, I'm joking. Um, so I think I just want— I knew that would actually get me really, really good training.

So even though, yeah, it was really difficult, you had the sort of self-awareness or perspective to be like, well, actually, like, this is going to help me become better.

Exactly. And I, and I, and at the time as well, they were going to grow the company Were they supportive?

Because you had nowhere to hide. It wasn't—

it was— in looking back on it, and, you know, both the directors were absolutely— like I said, they were amazing. But looking back on it, it probably was— I definitely felt out of my depth a lot of the time, but I don't think I really—

that enabled you like some serious growth.

It's kind of like fight or flight. I was like, you've just got to kind of crack on with this and get it done.

Yeah, yeah, mate, fair play. That's like straight in the— that's like sink or swim, innit?

Yeah, so when I came here, it was really easy. I was like, oh my God.

So Okay, so, um, so we're there for 2 years. That's really interesting. And then obviously you joined Salt, um, who— so how big were they when, uh, so I joined Salt.

So I got approached by Rec2Rec and he sent me a message. And at this point I'd been crying in the toilet, you know, more than regularly. So I thought, do you know what, Emma, give it a go.

Yeah.

Um, also I live in Surrey, so this recruitment agency was in Surrey, not in London. And I was like, bright lights, big city, you know, let's move into London, you know. Um, so I said, yeah, okay, you know, went to the interview. And when I interviewed at Soul, I think there was like 35 people.

Okay.

So, gosh, I think we've got 250 people now. Yeah, so we just acquired another business like 2 weeks ago. Oh wow, did you see it in the press? No. So we've, we've— it's fine, I sent it to you. So yeah, so it was a completely different company in terms of the environment.

What were you expecting?

Well, I remember I came in on my first day and they were like, oh, you know, there was jobs. And, you know, I had like James Walsh, who's the regional director in New York, was like, is like one of these best managers I've ever had. He was really supportive. He was like, oh yeah, like, do you want the login details for the job board? And I was like, what's a job board?

Mad.

I don't use job boards. We still don't use job boards really, but Yeah, I just didn't know what JobBob was, didn't know what Boolean search was.

So what made you join Salt, out of interest?

Got interviewed by Elliot, who was really, you know, had such an amazing vision, was really passionate about the company. It just had a really good culture. Like, we've been in this office since I joined, and I think it's just one of those places you just walk through the door and it's just got such a good energy and vibe about it.

Yeah, that's like no BS. Like, I did feel that. It's like I've been to quite a lot of offices and like it definitely has like these like cool energy about it and stuff. Yeah, that's no BS.

Yeah, no, it is a bit cringy, but it's true. And I think I was, yeah, 22, and I think it was just a really good place to take your career to take. And I remember as well because they were like, you know, I just lied in the interview and said that I did my own BD, which I didn't really. I was like, yeah, I've got all my own clients, had none. So it was just you know, it was that kind of, you know, that sort of supportive environment. And, uh, the chairman Paul, he's from where I live in Woking, Surrey. Shout out.

Okay.

Uh, so it just felt very homely. Like, there was a lot of Surrey people here, and I was like, oh, perfect.

So, okay, cool. So just to set the scene, been here for 6 and a half years. That's nearly a decade.

I know, I'm so old as well.

You're not old, mate. Jesus Christ. So look, so 6 and a half years. Yeah, just to, just to frame it up, so during that period you've got— what, talk to me just about the journey and, well, as in like just job title.

And then so job title, so joined as a consultant.

Yeah, so that you was from day one you're doing clients and candidates?

Yeah, yeah. So consultant, then senior consultant, then principal consultant, then senior principal consultant, then practice lead, then business event manager.

Okay, so, so what you do now, is it just be like clients?

No, so, um, I actually have a team, okay, that report into me, okay, in London. And there's people in New York that I give jobs to, but I don't manage them directly, so they've got their own manager. I think my job might change like in the next few months. I'm not entirely sure, but I might focus more on the management piece.

But right now, how many people do you manage?

Um, I think 4.

4, okay. And then how long— how— for what period of of your time here, have you managed people? Has it only been in the last—

No, I've managed. So I was a practice lead, I think got promoted to a practice lead about 3 years ago, and then that's when— So basically that's when you're like a team leader. You're not actually like— you then, you're not officially like— you don't have a P&L basically, but you're, you're involved in their like day-to-day setup.

Okay, so how long?

Development, that kind of stuff.

So are you still billing or not?

Yeah, I do still bill. Yeah, you still build very well, but I try.

We'll talk about that. So like, so okay, just to help me understand then. So last 3 years you've managed, you've been involved in management and you've managed like small teams?

Yeah, so basically I'll give it a rundown. So with Saw, you go, you get promoted to a certain level and then you decide what route you want to go down. Do you want to be a manager or do you want to focus on being like a top biller? Yeah, so they support you with whatever route you want to go down. And for me it was like, I want, you know, for me I kind of, I'd done recruitment for 8 years and I definitely get more fulfillment from like helping and developing people and them doing deals and me being involved in that side of things. So it was just a sort of natural progression. And then the reason why I'm a business development manager at the beginning of this year is, you know, I, I'm again the kind of manager I am. I'm not the kind of like, you know, have you done this? Have you done that? Like, I don't like that style. The way I like to manage people is through helping them with business development because I think that can be the really hardest part of the job. And, you know, doing it in for a long time, I've got a lot of good relationships, so it just made sense naturally for me to pick up jobs and I give them to my team and then I help them.

So you feed your team?

Yeah, that's exactly it.

Okay, cool. So let's break that down then. I'm excited to talk about this BD piece. So let's, let's just like talk about the segment of your career where until you got up to like practice lead, and that's where you decided if you're gonna go down the management route or top biller route.

Yeah.

So before then, what— how did you do billings-wise? What was your— what's been your best year?

270.

270. Okay, decent.

It's all right.

Yeah, it's not great. So it sounds like— so, and that's always been tech sales?

Yeah, that's all I've ever done.

That's all you've ever done?

Software sales.

Yeah. Okay, software sales. Right. And then how long— and then the UK-US piece, how— and then up until the practically piece, was it just UK? No.

So what happened is obviously— so So has, uh, we actually have I think 10 offices now.

Okay.

But at the time we didn't do anything. We've got an office in New York, right? We've got like 20 people in New York. But I think about 3 years ago, um, we didn't have— the reason why we opened that office is you were doing business in New York and we realized there was a massive, um, opportunity. So naturally that's—

so was you doing deals from the UK? Yeah, in New York. Yeah.

So I was placing salespeople. We did a lot of work with some of the big consultancies out there. So So naturally there was loads of business. We had consultants going out there all the time meeting clients and placing people. So they were like, we need to open an office here, there's a huge opportunity. Okay. So I then was doing that, um, and then from that I've just kind of on and off always sort of placed people there. But then the P&Ls are different, obviously we can't have people doing whatever they want, otherwise it would just be all crazy. So that's why they said, oh, you can still do a bit of US.

All right, cool, cool. All right, sweet. So Early on at Salt then, you'd never done BD before?

No.

How the hell do you approach that?

I think for me personally, you know, I, I appreciate that I am slightly annoying and I use that to my advantage.

What do you mean?

In a, in a, in a good way. So I think for me personally, it's all about putting your personality across.

Yeah.

And I think that's how I've managed to be successful in business development, and that's how I teach people, my team, to do business development. Is, you know, be, be, be Emma. Put yourself, you know, get them to know you, because ultimately it's a very competitive environment. They're going to get like 50 emails, calls, whatever it is a day. You need to somehow stand out from the crowd.

So how can someone start getting their personality more?

So for me personally, I personally think it's easy with sales. Like, I, you know, I can't speak for marketing. Yeah, I only know for sales, and sales is a very candidate-led market.

So that's like, is that most—

oh my God, really? No, I thought it was just us. No, but so if we get an absolute weapon of a candidate, you know, they've done X, Y, and Z, they've closed X, Y, and Z deal, automatically you should be tapping up all those hiring managers of their competitors, but I'm not talking— there's nothing worse than a recruitment recruiter that just does like a blind spec. So like, hi, I've got this candidate, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

I literally will meet someone— sorry, I'm gonna burp.

Nice.

Um, uh, sorry. I would meet someone, sit down with them, and say, where do you want to work? Like, this is about getting information from our candidates. Where do you want to work? Where's cool? Like, tell me about the market. You know, they're the ones selling the product, they're the ones working in the space. And they would say, oh well, you know, I've just won a deal against X, Y, and Z, or those guys are doing something really cool with that kind of technology. and I'd be like, cool. And then I'd go on LinkedIn and I would literally phone the hiring manager. And yes, you know, they get a lot of approaches, but if you genuinely have something to say, it's about believing in what you're doing. Phone up the hiring manager and be like, look, I have just met someone that you want to meet. You will want to meet this person because they are working at one of your competitors. They're their top sales guy. Go, do you want to go for a coffee with them? And for me, that's how like most of my relationships have started. Like, some of my biggest accounts has come from me harassing— not harassing people, but in a nice way, uh, and they kind of know who you are. And also it's about, you know, there's— don't, don't do something if you've been told to do it and you don't believe in it. Like, you have to do something that you think is worthwhile. And for me, it's about, you know, if you've got an amazing candidate and you do think they are amazing, then you shouldn't feel nervous to get in touch with that hiring manager that, you know, I've spoken to, because you know what you're doing is good, because it's going to like benefit them.

What if you haven't got a candidate? What's your approach then? Or do you not have an approach?

If you haven't, what, so you just have no, then you must have some, like you must do something.

No, well, you just said it's a candidate short market. So, okay, well, okay, Emma, 100%.

But what if I can't get a candidate? Okay, so, okay, so then, okay, you must have, it's like what came first, the chicken or egg? For me then, and this is again another thing I say to people on my team, is like, just be honest with them and say, look, I'm really new to the market. I know it's probably more difficult now because it's like a lot more saturated. People probably can't be asked to spend their time with recruiters. But if you, you know, even if you speak to a candidate that you don't think is that good, not, you know, we do think all candidates are good.

I'm not saying that. Still someone to talk about.

Yeah, you can still talk to them and understand. It's about market knowledge. Like for me, it's all about market intel. You know, I've got some clients on before from, you know, when you see articles about them receiving funding. I know this probably sounds so textbook, but it does actually work. Reaching out to those people and being like, oh my God, you've just got this, I saw you in this, blah blah blah blah blah. You know, I do, I write pasos, which is like blogs about certain articles. I'll send it to hiring managers and be like, I just saw you posted about, about that. Well, guess what, I just wrote an article about it. It kind of just shows that you actually know what you're talking about. I think there's like a lot.

I feel like what you're doing there is like, you're not— the, the reason why I asked you that is because like So what I just wanted to get your thoughts on is like, and I agree, I had way more success.

Yeah.

When obviously ultimately you have a reason to call them, right? That, that's what it comes down to at the end of the day. Yeah. You could sit there 2 hours in your BD power hour, whatever, and have no reason to call them. Yeah. That's when it's really difficult and it's like, this is shit and it's horrible. But what you're saying is then on that point is worth its content or whatever, candidate, a not so good candidate, average, like you've got a reason. I think it's, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I definitely think like, you know, we can call up any company we want to and say, hey, can I recruit for you? They're going to be like, no, that's just not gonna work. Like, why do they care? You know, at the end of the day, you've got to respect their time. They're busy people. I feel like if you go with them and you, you know, you don't even say, can I recruit for you, it's like, do you want to meet this person? Or yeah, it's a different conversation. And you know, I, I'd find that awkward. I wouldn't call up someone and go, hi, I see that you're all right.

You know, can— on the candidate side then How did you, so obviously, as you said, you had a year where you build nearly 300K. Like, that's decent. So like, obviously, I'm assuming that when you started Salt, you didn't have any clients or anything like that. You had access to a job board.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? So like, how did you start building up the candidates?

So I definitely think one thing that Salt does really well, and I think it's recommended, is pick a specialism. Like, whatever it's gonna be, pick a niche. You know, make yourself really, really good at one thing. Because that for me personally is how people have become super successful, and it worked for me.

Um, what did you niche down on?

So I, so I recruit in software sales, but specifically marketing technology.

Okay.

So when I joined, there was like no marketing technology vendors. There was like email marketing or e-commerce platforms, and I just networked with all of those senior people. And then now, honestly, how do you network with them?

So how do you start that?

How did I start? So I would you know, to try and BD some of the directors. I'd also, like, you've got, like, it's a niche within a niche, right? So I'd get like a real junior salesperson, like an inside salesperson that's, you know, not ready for a big closing role, but I'd take them to market in like a different way as well. So it's just about, I think, just anytime you find someone good, just utilizing them as much as possible. Yeah, like it's so difficult to work a sales job and actually find people that are really well suited. It's better to go, right, I've got this amazing guy, what can I do with him? And actually, or woman, and actually really understand it. And I think if you keep talking and if you are really specialist, you're going to keep knocking on the same doors. Eventually they're going to want to have a conversation with you. And I think that's what worked for me. Eventually people would just come back to me and, you know, they would say yes or no, whatever, but they would know who I am and they'd know me. And then, you know, yes, they then would have a job and they go, Well, who am I gonna call? Like, I'm gonna call Emma because she's been harassing me for the last 6 months in a nice way.

I mean, all you're saying is like you stayed in touch. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, actually, like, be front of mind. If that's like, okay, okay, I know you're not— I know you're busy again, but let me call you back in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's again, it's about having the knowledge. Like, I don't want anybody— I, you know, recruiters do get a really bad rep, and it really irritates me. I have it like family barbecues where they're like, oh, you're a recruiter. And it's like, we're actually good at our job. Like, I know a lot about my clients. I really invest myself in them. And, you know, what we're doing is putting really good people with really good companies. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. As long as you know what you're talking about. There's nothing worse than somebody, yeah, you know, I wouldn't try and, you know, get on board with like a tech company. I don't know anything about it. And I'd be the first person to be like, just 'cause I know recruitment doesn't mean necessarily I'd be able to fill any role.

So what would you say, you're an expert?

I'd definitely say I'm an expert, 100%. Yeah.

How— so in a nutshell, you obviously touched on it there, just out of interest, how did you get to the expert status?

Expert status, like, you know what I mean?

Like, someone listening, like, you know what, I've done it for a year, I feel— because you do, you get more confident in that. But so, like, so you said there that, like, obviously niche down, obviously you'd be having conversations with these people as much as possible, but how did you approach, like, really getting under the bonnet of like your, your, um, did you do anything different besides like just having conversations with these people? Like, what else did you do?

Just meeting people as much as possible. It's so cringe, but going to expos, like, it's not cringe. Like, I know, but it's honestly so, so important. Like, I, one of my biggest clients, um, they came from me trying to get in with the, um, MD for like 2 years at his previous company. Yeah. And they work with another agency. I won't say who.

Yeah.

In case you're listening. I'm joking. And he was just like, sorry, it's above my head. I can't work with you for 2 years, right? He got a job at this new company. He called me up out of the blue and he just said, I want to work with you exclusively. I've got the freedom to do it. And I did about, you know, it's one of our biggest accounts and has been for like the last 3 years.

Cheers.

So, you know, and that was from me, you know, he knew who I was and I think it's about The most important thing is putting your personality across as well. I find, you know, even when, you know, if we hire people at SAW, if I've got people on my team that are coming across from other agencies and they're doing like an email and it's that typical, you know, structured like email that, let's face it, pretty much every recruiter in London is sending. And for me, it's like, of course they're not going to respond to you. Like, why would they?

What do you do then, mate?

I just think you've got to, you've got to put your personality across in the way you write. You know, in the way you kind of write an email, how you would talk. Okay. You know, say why someone's good, not in a bullet point format that you've just copied and pasted from their CV, but actually with a bit of—

you should do that.

Yeah, but with a bit of an emotion, with a bit of conviction. Like, at the end of the day, we're salespeople as well. We need to sell to them why they should speak to us. So I think it's really important to do that.

Okay. Where, so what are you talking about there? Great, great story. I absolutely love that. I had the same experience, like, but it's a bit—

With bullet points.

A bit, bit, no, not bullet points. But slightly different experience. So, I started actually a bad experience. Like, this client is, yeah. So, I had this client who, like, I knew was like, just, he had this insurance broker, had about 4 or 5 different jobs. There's loads of recruitment agencies on there. And, but they, I just knew they'd like, charged less than we charged, and his mobile was on LinkedIn. He just put it on there, so he must get absolutely peppered. Anyway, yeah, gave him a call.

Yeah.

And he finally called me back. But like, you know when someone calls back and then it's like you get a pass from a colleague?

Oh yeah.

And like, during the BD session, and I didn't remember, like, I just, I just completely crumbled. I completely crumbled. I was like, did you cry? No, I didn't cry, but I was like, because like he called back and then I was like someone said it like, I don't think they caught his name properly, and I was like, who the fuck's that? I don't know who that is, sort of thing. Anyway, long story short, he called back, he got through to me, and I was like, like, who— why did I call you again? Like, who are you? Sort of thing. Like, absolutely crumbled, just looked like an absolute numpty. And then he's like, this is the worst call ever, like, just don't call me again, sort of thing.

Wait, so it doesn't have a happy ending?

No, it does have a happy ending. So that happens, right? But, and then, like, I stayed persistent. Like, 3 months, 6 months, I was like, look, I'm sorry we got off on a bad foot.

Totally, I'm sorry.

Like, yeah, sorry, I'm shit. Like, I made a mistake. Um, long story short, finally, like, broke the account.

Yeah.

And then, like, I made, like, 4 or 5 placements from, like, back to back. So I totally get that.

I think people like vulnerability. That's what that says. Like, people like it when you're open.

I was like, you know what, I fucked up, mate. Yeah, that was Yeah, I look like an—

I think that's what makes you good. Like, you know, I'm not talking about personality. It's about— yeah, it's about showing you that you're human. Like, I've like read this thing, like literally listened to a podcast this morning about it, about how people, you know, it's about having that human interaction with people.

Totally.

And it's so important to show that you are a person and that you're not just, you know, no wonder recruiters get a bit of a bad rep when you're being told or you are speccing out people to like 50 hiring managers and you've got this guy or whatever. You know, they get so many of those emails. Like, you know when you've got friends that go internal and they show you the emails and you're like, no wonder people think we are shit. Like, because some of us are shit. And I think it's just about being better.

What you were just saying there, then, that story, which is what I wanted you to talk a bit about, is like, you had to remain persistent.

Yeah.

And like that, I mean, that's hard.

Yeah.

So how have you cultivated like resilience, basically? Like, how have you gone about that?

I don't know, like, obviously crying a lot. No, I'm joking. Um, I don't know really, like, I think I've been really lucky to work in a business that is very, very supportive. I've never feared for my job if things haven't gone my way, and it's— yeah, and it's not been— I've not always done really well. Like, some months you're blank, you know, you might even blank for 2 months, and it's the worst feeling when you're trying so hard. Like, everyone knows the phrase is, you know, recruitment is champagne and/or razor blades. Yeah, you know that phrase, as good as your last month. No, but like, you're either literally celebrating or you want to kill yourself. Yeah, exactly. Plug.

So how about— how, how have you— do you do anything to help you get through that? You've done anything?

You know, I'm 20— I'm 28 now, 30 next year. Woohoo!

Um, wait, you're 28? It doesn't mean you're 30 next year.

Yeah, it does. 29 December.

Oh, okay.

30 next year. So I think it's like an age thing. Um, I think it's about seeing the bigger picture. Like, it is honestly, again, really cringy to say, but I just actually love doing recruitment. I love recruitment. So I'm not— I think sometimes it's difficult to motivate people if maybe, you know, people come into recruitment, they want to leave after 6 months, a year, they want to go into sales or do whatever. You can't make people want to stay and do it.

Yeah.

But if you do want to stay and do it, I think that end goal kind of keeps you in it because there are going to be good times, there are going to be bad times. Like, you know, James, my old manager, he's in New York now, he used to say like, you need to be as emotionless as possible. Like, you need to take out emotion from the situations because you shouldn't really necessarily celebrate when things are going really well, and you shouldn't really hate it when things are going badly. You've just got to kind of remain one level of calmness How have you managed that then?

Have you done it?

I'm terrible at doing that.

Really?

No, I'm much better now. I think in about the last 2 years, probably. So maybe since I turned 26, I think—

You're talking about age way too much, mate.

No, no, I do. I'm just trying. It's like the timeline in my head. I think for the last 2 years I've like stabled out.

Like before that, what have you done differently then?

Just I think you've got to look after your own mental health. Like you've got to make it a priority. You've got to make mental health a priority. You've got to, you know, everyone in recruitment likes to drink, but realistically, don't go out in the week and drink because it's just not going to help you do your job properly the next day. Like, trust me.

There's no way. I honestly, I don't think I actually— I'm pretty sure I didn't do like a day of like recruitment hungover. But I didn't, I didn't work, I didn't work in London. Oh, so like I worked in Hey Recife and like It's just like farmland, basically.

Oh nice, that's probably the dream.

Nah, it's all right. It'd be nice, but like, honestly, like, I had— so I had to like drive an hour to work. Oh wow, do you know what I mean? So either— it's like, I couldn't think of anything worse than doing recruitment hungover.

I don't know how I did you. Like, I look back at myself and I'm like, I think that's just being young and in London. I think most young people are like that. Probably just not.

So what did you start doing then? Like, how did you start looking your mental health, anything that you start to do differently?

So always make sure you go to the gym, always make sure that you get sleep. Sleep, gym, don't drink, um, in the week, in the week, um, uh, try and plan things. Like, you know, it's kind of like a, you know, sort of grandma thing to say, but like get into a routine.

Yeah.

And stick to the routine, um, and just prioritize what you do yourself. Like, sort of really good, like I've got a life coach Oh wow.

Um, how's that helped you?

It's just really— she's like amazing because I think everything all sort of links together. If you're happy in outside of work, definitely happy inside of work, you're going to be happy, you're going to be successful, you're going to be calm and peaceful.

Of course. So how long have you had the life coach for?

I think about 2 months now. It's quite a new thing.

Oh nice.

Yeah, so they do it at— so I think like management or—

that's good. So like, so basically what you're saying is in the last 2 years you've got much better?

I think it's a maturity thing as well. Yeah, that's fair.

So like, ultimately what you're saying there, you just got better at having a bit of perspective in those moments and like not letting someone else's emotions—

you know what it is? Like, my sister works in like mental health, and she honestly has to deal with some of the most horrible circumstances like in her day-to-day job. And she was actually one of the people that put into perspective, because I had a person that canceled an interview, like final interview, and it meant I wouldn't have got my bonus. And they would get like a 5 grand bonus, 4.5 grand, and it meant I missed my bonus. And I literally like lost my shit. I was so annoyed. She came home from work and like was telling me this story about, you know, whatever happened in this mental ward. Won't go into detail.

Yeah.

And she's literally paid like absolute pittance. And I just really got some perspective about like, Emma, stop moaning about things.

So true.

It's just so silly. If someone canceled an interview, just rearrange it or find another candidate. Like, we're not, we're not doctors here. We're not saving lives. I think it's about having perspective on what we do and going, you know what, do the best job that you can do, but also don't take it home with you and don't let it like rattle you and keep you up at night. Even though, you know, I'm not gonna say it doesn't.

Yeah, it definitely does. No, honestly, like, yeah, perspective is big. Yeah, like meditation helped me with that.

Oh yeah, meditation is really good.

Have you—

I do meditate, but not that often. I, I try to like meditate more.

That just helped me be able to like take a step back in those moments because I struggled with that early on. I was like, nah, why would this guy let me down?

Like, it's really nice. I know.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, why he's such a— why he's so horrible? Why?

So, okay. So how come you pick the management route then? Did you always want to know you want to do that or?

I don't know. Like, I think for me, I like coaching people. I really like seeing people do well because of stuff that I've like specifically done to help them.

Yeah.

Um, and it just gives me more fulfillment. Like, I'm not money motivated. I like money. Huh? Was I?

You must have been.

I, I was to like some degree, but then I think it comes a point where, you know, you can earn loads of money but you're not feeling fulfilled in what you're doing. And day to day you can just keep placing people and like, woohoo, like ring the bell, but it's not that exciting.

Do you remember getting your biggest ever paycheck?

Yeah.

How did you do?

Well, I was gonna say I get a lot of big paychecks. Oh my gosh. No, I do remember. I remember getting my first bonus. Okay, that was, that was actually more of a defining moment for me. I got my first bonus, so I got my first big paycheck. And, uh, yeah, I went and bought a Prada handbag. Oh my God, I know how cliché, right? I think I must have been about 23 years old.

So the reason why I asked you that is like, how did you feel?

Oh my God, I felt so happy. Really felt like I'd made it in life.

Really?

Yeah.

So I felt the opposite.

Oh my God.

Why? Just because it's because of your appointment. You said they're like— you said you were just saying then like, yeah, you can get this money, but if you don't feel fulfilled— I just said like— so I looked at my bank account, I was like, I don't feel anything. Look, obviously I was happy.

And sometimes I've definitely lost a lot of perspective on money. And my dad would say that, like, I have no perspective on money because the amount of money that we earn for doing not— like, obviously we do a lot, but you know, I think you kind of think you know, it is a lot of money and we are really, really fortunate situations to be in to work in this career because it's obviously extremely lucrative.

But how have you got better at managing your money then, mate? Because that's definitely like— that's, that's an interesting thing, isn't it? Yeah, as you said. Yeah, it's actually come up I think once or twice before. It's like 23-year-old recruiter earning 6 figures, whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

Who the fuck's telling that person like not to go out and just spend those money on Prada handbags? Do you know what I mean? Like How have you got better at that?

Again, obviously, you know what, I think I just had to grow up. Like, I've got a mortgage, I've got a cat, you know, he's not gonna feed himself. Um, you know what I mean?

Okay, so with that in mind then, would you do anything different? Like, would, like, what would your advice be to that 23-year-old self?

Um, do you know what, you know, I'm a person that says don't have regrets. I don't know if I necessarily I, you know, I think you need to go through things to appreciate.

Like, I wouldn't necessarily be, you know, you wouldn't say like, do not casually do that, but like, out of interest, like, do you think you'd sort of give that person any advice?

But no, because you know what, it was fun. Like, I had a laugh. Like, I look back and I'm like, you know what, I went on amazing trips. Like, I did so much fun stuff. I had such a fun life.

Yeah, yeah.

And now, you know, I'm kind of at the age where I'm like, you know what, I've done all that, it's like given me really good experiences, and now I'm just, you know, I want to, you know, be a little bit more— yeah, priorities have changed. I think that's just about growing up.

Yeah.

And I wouldn't say necessarily, you know, maybe don't do that or don't do that, because then what? Like, you're just gonna have a boring— like, I think those are kind of what your 20s are for. I just, you know, your early 20s are for just like—

yeah.

And also just like learning who you are as a person. I think that's like really important.

Yeah, I was just interested because, as I said, like, yeah, I mean, it's when you're earning that type of cash and it's like, well, okay, well, no one's told me how to manage my money before. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You could make some bad mistakes.

I know.

With money.

I know.

Yeah. So, how did you transition into management then? Like, did you like mentor people for a bit?

So, it's like, yeah, I went to like what we call a practice lead, which is essentially like a team lead role.

Okay, um, was that just managing one person?

No, I think it was managing three.

And do you— so you went from not managing anyone?

Well, no, actually. So like, they do it kind of gradually. So if you start saying you want to go down management route, you know that you might get a resourcer. So I think I originally started with one, one girl, um, and she was like my resourcer, um, just sort of coaching her. Yeah, yeah, doing it like setting her up in the mornings, like what she's gonna do, what she's gonna focus on. And then just gradually we get like bigger and bigger, and then you promoted to that role.

Okay, some learnings that you've experienced in your management career, mate. Oh, talk to me. Like, was you a good manager from quite early on, or did you have to—

I think, okay, so I think I, I don't— I think it's about being— don't, don't be a manager that someone else is. Don't try and manage in the way that someone else tells you to manage. Okay, do you know what I mean? Like, there's not a cookie-cutter way to management. That's my opinion. If you've got certain personality traits, you should kind of go with your gut instinct and go, well, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do that, rather than try and, you know, if your manager manages you in a certain way, it doesn't mean that necessarily you're going to be like that. I don't know if I'm making any sense.

Yeah, it does make sense. Yeah.

But so for me, I think with me, I tried a lot to do things like, okay, well, I've got to do this because someone's telling me something.

So instead of trying to do it in your own— yeah, but I think your own way and not listening.

But also, you've got, you've got to do that. But I think it's It takes time to have confidence in your own voice and actually say, well, this is how I think. I'm gonna go with my gut feeling here. I think it's about kind of trusting yourself more. So that would be one thing is kind of trusting yourself to make a good decision.

Did you have anyone sort of that you was learning from or like?

Yeah, so my manager was Gareth.

He's still here.

He's like an amazing, amazing manager here. And he's got a different team now. So he was sort of like coaching me, but me and him, like personality-wise, like chalk and cheese, but it's so different. But he is an amazing manager, and it was just like, you know, it— we just sort of different in terms of like, yeah, how you might deliver it, how we might deliver stuff. So that's what—

what are some of the cool things that really help you with then? Did you like have like some really good processes, or did you—

yeah, so he— yeah, so what we have— I'm just trying to think back now. So we— what, just in terms of like, just like—

so, so something to help you out, so something that's come up quite a lot is, um, what is this for people who want to move into management? So it might be someone that is in management right now, might be struggling, or think about managing or whatever, um, where you've obviously— in— obviously you'll be managing now for like 3 years. You might have like some things that you've just done for a while now, which, you know, just set you up the best way to manage your people. So a real common thing, um, is quite a few people said that when they said— when they said to their team like, right, So if, unless it's like life or death, you can grab me and like speak to me.

Oh my God, no.

Or basically I trust you, like between 12 and 1, like that's when you can book in time with me and speak to me.

Yeah, so I, okay, I think again, so everyone's different.

Yeah.

So it's like, I'm not going to say how I am, like, is my ways the right way? Of course. But for me, I just think you need to be there for your team like a million zillion percent. Like, I'm very much I'm not a micromanager. Like, I don't give a shit about, you know, how many CV sends you've sent, how many, you know, what you've done. I don't even really look at that kind of stuff. For me, it's all about are you doing the best work you can do? And also like trying to coach people through making the best decisions. Like, if I hear someone on the phone or if I can see something they're doing, something I'd be like, oh my God, let me help you with this. Let me do this. Like, I'll go on the phone, you listen in, that kind of thing. And I think you've just always got to be like I would never say, oh, don't talk to me between these hours. Like, they can talk to me whenever they want. And at the end of the day, I kind of— I think as a recruitment manager, you do kind of have to be a bit of like a counselor at the same time as well.

Yeah.

Like, the amount of times I've cried to my former managers, like, they probably should have charged me for like therapy services. I think you've got to be that person. Like, you know, recruitment is hard. It's so up and down. Ultimately, some things we do are completely out of our control. And as like someone new, it can be so disheartening. Like, I've got a guy on my team at the moment, she's absolutely amazing. She's been with us for about 3 months and she's had the shittest couple of weeks, like, through no fault of her own. And, you know, that for me as a manager is difficult to see because she's working really, really hard. So it's like just trying to support her and be like, you know what, this will happen for you. Like, you're doing everything right. Like, this will all make sense. Just keep doing the right things.

Yeah, just filling them with confidence. Yeah, that's what my manager to me.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And how this American piece come about there? Like, what did it happen? Quite naturally, if you're desperate, you ended up— so I think placements in America.

So a lot of the companies we work for, so we work for a lot of SaaS businesses that are either US companies coming over to Europe or European SaaS businesses, and naturally they would be like, do you have people in the US? So a lot of the clients I used to work for were already US companies. Um, I think I had a client that basically was a UK-based company, and they said, oh, do you have anyone in New York because we're going to expand to New York? And I was like, oh, I'll do it. And that's basically how it came about. Yeah, I was like, yeah, sure, like, I'll give it a go.

Nice. Um, and then how have you— how have you found— so I've had a couple of people now that, um, built their American part of their desk like a year, maybe a year and a half before they went over, or sometimes shorter. And went over there, typically people said that, um, people were way more receptive to pick up the phone.

100%.

Really? Like, how— what's been your experience? Obviously, if you work in the UK, I think—

not even the UK, but so we like cover the whole of Europe. So I think each different country has their own sort of traits. Like, Germany is so hard in my opinion. Like, no one wants to talk to you. They're all very loyal to their employers. Um, the US is really like— people don't have this in sales. I'm talking specifically, again, I don't know about other markets, but, um, no, we don't have the same perception. Like, here it's like, well, then they need to stay 3 years, 3 years, 3 years. In the US, it's like they don't care about that. They are literally just chasing for the best opportunity. So they have— they pick up the phone even if they've been at a company for a week. And hiring managers aren't the same. They don't say, well, this person has to be there 3 years, 3 years, 3 years, because no one has in. So they're just way more open to a conversation. Even if they're not interested, they'll recommend people. Like, I just feel like they're just— I think recruitment's a lot more respected in the US than it is in the UK.

Yeah. How's it helped?

It just helps a lot because you can have conversations with people. I think that's half the battle. Like, we're all trying to speak to people. You can't really convince them to go to an interview if you can't even speak to them. And, you know, I And that's the beauty of when you're at the US market, they will pick up the phone to you and have a chat with you.

Have a conversation, yeah. Can you make more money in America? Are the fees bigger? Everyone's saying the fees are bigger.

Do you know what? I've done like a mixture. So I've done a mixture of UK and US, but like, you know, I think it was like last year I had to do like a few hires in the US and I did like 3 of them and then they all started like the next month and it was absolutely sweet. But like— That wouldn't really happen the UK, but it's just so much harder.

So no, but the term— there's like terms everyone's saying, like, yeah, America's 30%.

I mean, I don't know, I— maybe they're just really good recruiters. I personally haven't worked at 30%.

What's the—

I work at like 20 to 25.

Really?

Yeah, just basically the same as the UK. But then I know that they are saying, because like our American team, like the guys in the US, do amazingly— like they're really, really good recruiters.

So yeah, I'm just interested because like I'm sure you've seen it all over LinkedIn, like America, like you can, yeah, earn loads of fees.

But you can, but it's all like, you know, it's really— it's expensive to live in America as well. Like the cost of living in New York is really super high. So, you know, I personally think it's all relative.

Have you spent— how much time you spent in New York?

Quite a lot of time.

Like, what's it like if someone's thinking about moving to New York to recruit? What the hell should they be thinking about? So like, actually I had a guy, I don't know if you ever met him. Again, we'd have to go into all the details. Do you know Tom Cotterill?

Yeah.

So I live with— so to give you context, I live with Tom. He's actually been on the podcast. But anyway, anyway, he likes that. Anyway, yeah, but anyway, anyway, in a nutshell, don't have to go into personal details, but like, he didn't like it, did he? Yeah, so that's what I mean. So like, obviously, but to be fair, like, everyone can be attracted, like you said, attracted to London. I definitely was. But I've never been to New York. I'm definitely going.

New York's amazing. If I didn't have a cat and a boyfriend, like, I would move to New York.

Really?

Um, I think it's like, yeah, like, it's, it's just got an amazing— you just— I love the aura of New York when you go there. It's just like, it's a great, it's a great thing. But I also think it can be quite a lonely place.

That's what I mean.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I think it is quite a lonely place. Like, me personally, I need my personal space. Yeah, I've lived alone for a very long time I would never ever want to house share with anybody. That is like my idea of hell. So, um, you know, if I was to move there, I wouldn't possibly be able— I don't think I'd be able to, unless I lived in like Brooklyn or something, afford my own place. You'd probably have to like share with someone.

Yeah, so I just wouldn't like that.

Yeah, so I just don't want to do it for that reason.

But like, if I— but like, just from your experience being there and stuff like that, like, if I'm a recruiter right now, I've got 3, 4 years experience, and someone's hitting me up and go, look, yeah, there's an opportunity to sell New York, I would say do it. But what should I actually think about? Because like, the rhetoric's going to tell me that you can earn 30% fees. Yeah, all this, and not actually talk to me about the actual reality of living there.

I don't know like the ins and outs of things, but you definitely need to take into consideration living costs. You definitely need to take into consideration the different taxes. I don't know what it is, but I think it's like 40% or something. I don't know, don't hold me to that, might be making that up. Um, and just, yeah, I mean, I, I think go for it. Like, if you're in that position and you want to do something, I think New York's an amazing place. So I would definitely say do it.

No, I'm just interested because I did a, um, podcast with someone that also went to New York and he just found that like, obviously, but people typically in New York, they're like set up there, they've got their friendship groups and stuff like that. So it can actually be quite— it can be quite a bit of a challenge. We've relocated a lot of people like to New York, but then obviously you have like your tribe at work.

They've all settled in quite well.

But like, but like, you know what I mean? Like, I think obviously if you're going to a business where there's like 8, 20, 30, whatever. They're your fucking people. And like, that's, that's obviously really useful. Yeah, but no, I'll totally get that, like 100%. So when I moved up to London, it was just me and my mate. And I've said it a few times, like, it's just obviously a weird feeling when you're surrounded by people every day commuting to work, but then you get home and you just feel like it's just you. Like, it's weird, isn't it? Like, let alone obviously New York where, yeah, it's even more busier if you're surrounded by all these people.

If you're going to move anywhere, you've got to throw yourself into it.

So like, yeah, like you've got to surround your work friends, you've got to go go to like fucking yoga classes.

You've got to do this, you've got to do that.

Yeah, like you can't just sit there, but like, I'm lonely. Like, it takes action, unfortunately. Yeah, you've got to put yourself out there.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, fair enough, mate. So as we finish, mate—

we finishing already? Oh my God, time flies when you're like nearly an hour.

So, um, what I was going to say, what I'd love to get your thoughts on before we finish, two things. So obviously we spoke quite a bit about business development early on and throughout Like now you're managing people and like obviously you have a focus on BD. Like what, what are like the common mistakes that you see people do, or like common things that you see people make that sort of you, you see that prevents them from having more success at BD and stuff like that?

Okay, so number one is stand out from the crowd. Do not do what all your colleagues are doing. Like if you're going to send someone an email, make it about you. Don't be, don't be scared to like let your personality shine through in an email. Don't, you know, do the standard thing. Actually Show who you are, get them to know like the real person. That's super important.

Have you ever tried video? No.

Okay, I feel like that's the ball ache.

No, but as in like, but you're just out of interest, just because like send them a video and be like, hello. Well, obviously you've seen the people like Hinterveu, Audre, all there, so you can send a video and emails like, because I've done that and it works 100%. So I'm just interested.

But maybe it does. I've never—

okay, so be actually like, don't just do the video.

Yeah, I It's the same with LinkedIn, right? If you look at the people on my teams at LinkedIn, we— any post that we do, it's like, put you across. Like, if you're recruiting for a company, put it in your day-to-day life. Talk about how it affects you. Yeah, stand out. Don't just be the same.

Be willing to put yourself across. Yeah. Okay, nice.

Secondly is don't just try one avenue. Like, oh, I've emailed them. Like, who cares? You've emailed them. Have you added them on LinkedIn? You know, we send these email projects now and it's like, oh, they've not replied to me. Yeah. Have you actually added them? Because then you can like see when they're online, you can like send them a little message then, you know, so like don't, don't get complacent with, I know, I've done it. It's like, you know what, what's that like story when it's like, if you can't go round it, go under it, whatever it is, you know what I mean?

I know what you mean.

Yeah. If you can't get hold of someone from one way, like try the other way, try the other way, keep going. Ultimately, you should make a list of top 10 accounts that you were like, those are the accounts that I'm going to break no matter what happens. Those are the accounts I'm going to work with. And you should put them on a pedestal, and you should do everything you can to get into those accounts. And if you're good enough and you know what you're talking about, like, why wouldn't they want to work with you? Okay, unless they're working with Salt already, then they definitely won't. Are you joking?

So is that— so is that your key thing then? Get your personality across. Yes.

Email, be persistent, and, and, you know, do other ways. Don't just do what everyone else is doing.

Talk to me about your ways, mate.

Come So if I've mapped out 10 accounts, I go to the top straight away. So go to like C-level, go to CEO. You know, if you, you know, you're looking to like get into a software business, go straight to the top, message them, then go down a level, then go down a level. Like, add people, never add HR. Love HR.

Okay, wait, wait, just quickly. So, all right, so I mapped out my 10 accounts.

Yeah.

I'm gonna go straight to the top.

Yeah.

What am I doing to try and get— how am I trying to—

so I'm very open about— so if you go on my LinkedIn, like, I say the companies we work with, talk about relevant stuff to them. If they're a, you know, email marketing platform, say, these are all the other email marketing platforms that I recruit for, these are all the roles I've placed, are you interested to talk to me? Like, it's all about relevance, okay? They get a lot of emails, so, from different recruiters.

We're not calling them at this stage. Just straight email.

I would just do an email. And I, do you know what I think? And I know there's like so much thing about, oh, cold calling is not dead, cold calling is dead. I don't know if it's dead or not, I'm not here to judge. But for me personally, I wouldn't want to do a cold call. Like, I would email them, add them on LinkedIn, and kind of go down that approach, you know, if I really wanted to get into them. After doing it a few times, like, I literally will keep sending messages, not like hello, hello, like shit messages, but try and make it, you know, you don't want to keep annoying someone. Then maybe you could call them because you could be like, look, I've called you, I'm really sorry to do this. I think calling someone like, you know, we've all been cold-called by rec to recs at our desk, and it's like, they feel awkward calling you. You can tell they're nervous. You don't want to, you don't want to take the call. You're like, why, why are you calling me? And that's the same thing for people that we're calling as well. Like, yeah, I don't know. But there are probably a lot of recruiters out there that do cold call and they like stand by it. So I think it's just whatever works for you.

Start at the top.

Yeah.

Then work your way down. And why'd you do that? Just because obviously the better— if you have someone bought in at the top, then they have more decisions.

Yeah, exactly. And I think you should be able to do— yeah, like you should go to the top of their business. They're the ones that are going to know the— they're the ones that have got more power.

All right. And then one of— actually, just on the BD topic, you do events.

Yeah, I do. I'm doing an event next week.

How long— how long you've done events for?

This is actually my first event. I've sort of done events for like years, but this is my first personal first event.

Why? Why did you decide to start an event?

Because, do you know what it was? I think it's just one of those things, you know, when you do like a little business plan every quarter and you say what you want to do, what you want to achieve. I've been saying for so long, I want to do an event, I want to do an event, and it's just like, you know what, just fucking do it. Like, actually just do it. And it was a good time because it's coming to the end of the year, we've got a few different events going at the same time, and I just said, look, I want to get this done, I want to do it.

And yeah, so the reason why I was curious about that is because, um, I had— so I did a podcast with a chap called Kyle who, um, he again, he's like all about smashing the phones and all that and still very much believes that. However, like he was really struggling to get through switchboard, all the normal stuff, right? And then he decided to start an event series, and all of a sudden he had these C-level, high-level people going, yeah, I'll take your call. Yeah, I'll speak to you about an event because you're not talking about jobs.

Yeah, yeah.

So have you found that if you went or not, or did you rely on your existing network to, to try and get people to get involved?

Um, well, I, I've actually got people on the, like, the people on the panel, the people that we recruit for But then also I had— I did contact people that I don't recruit for that. I just— because it's about women in sales, how there's like a lack of diversity. So I just reached out to some women that I knew who I'd never recruited for, but I like really rated them.

Yeah.

So whether they're not on the panel, but they came back to me and it was like a good way to have a conversation.

Perfect. No, that's what I was trying to allude to, because like all of a sudden, yeah, again, it's like different.

But I think they respect you in a different way. Like, it does really kind of grind my gears is how recruiters do have a really bad rep. And it's like, we're not bad. Like, we're smart people, we know what we're talking about. And I think when you do an event, or if you do like a blog, you're actually showcasing that you do know what you're talking about and you're not just like some guy, some London— like, I don't know what the word is. Yeah, like fucking shitty.

So how, how do you think, um, you mentioned it a few times, like, how do you think this, uh, how do you think this rep recruitment can change, mate? We're impacting it right now.

Just, just do a good job.

Do the right thing.

Do the right thing. Like, that is what it comes down to. Do the right thing. If you get a job and you can't find anyone, tell the client that you can't find anyone and say, do you know what, I know that you know, Tom down the road recruits to that area. Why don't you contact them? Like, I've actually had recommendations from other recruiters. I've been passed candidates from other recruiters. We do that too. It's like, I can't place you, but speak to that person. Like, go back to people, you know, give them feedback. And it's that, you know, I think if everyone starts doing that, at the end of the day, the good ones probably do that anyway, and that's why they're good, and that's why they're always going to have candidates. Clients are going to use them. For the rest of you fuckers, get your shit together.

No, yeah, no, I totally get it. I think— I don't know, I think there's, there's, there's so many good recruiters out there. There's so many good recruiters out there. Um, so look, as we finish, mate, before I do ask you the, uh, final question, what are you excited about? Obviously your event. I think this is going to go out before the event happened, like after the event happens, mate. Yeah, just so you know.

Damn.

Well, anyway, obviously excited about it.

That event went well. I can't believe how amazing that event was.

But what are you excited about, mate? What's going on in your world?

Um, I'm going to Thailand in December for a month.

Oh wow.

So I'm going off-grid, guys.

I'm doing that for the first time. Not Thailand, I'm going, uh, I'm traveling Morocco with the missus for 3 weeks.

Nice.

But it's the first time I'm doing that as well.

Yeah.

How do you feel about it?

I'm really excited.

Like, so when you say off the grid, what are we talking? Well, are you like putting you out of the office on the whole time?

I'm never gonna go like off-grid. Like, I'm the kind of person that will obviously, you know, my clients, you know, if they're gonna message me. But I think it's a good time to do it because Christmas, realistically, no one cares anyway.

Yeah, I think it was the first time you're doing it. Have you never done that?

No, I've never done it before. I've never like gone away for like a long period of time.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm really, I'm really interested.

Yeah, nice.

Yeah, anything else? You're recruiting for your team?

I am recruiting for anybody's interested in joining. We love suit.com.

Fair enough, maybe a few things going on. Event, yeah, Thailand for a month in December. Nice, mate. It's pretty much been on an interesting journey, mate.

Thanks.

Last question. Oh, if you could, uh, communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd take on your advice, they'd listen, they'd implement it tomorrow. Could be a phrase, a sentence. What would Emma say to them, mate?

That's such a good question.

Um, what comes to mind?

I think it's, you know, we've already touched on it, but I do think it comes down to— actually, I was gonna say do the right thing, but actually I'm gonna say strive for the best.

Try for the best.

Like, if someone says to you, if you've got a job and they want somebody from like a competitor Like, get someone from their competitor. Like, don't send them free CVs from free people that aren't their competitors. Like, wait until you've got the best and do what you can to get the best. Like, always strive for the best in everything you're doing.

Love that. Boom, boom. Thank you, mate. Enjoyed that.

Thanks.