Ethan Hall - Mastering Contract Recruitment

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and this week's episode is a fantastic one. I was joined by Ethan Hall from Interex, who over the last 7-8 years has gone from being the first employee in the business to now director and shareholder. He's always been in contract recruitment, and every single year he has leveled up his performance. It's been tough. It's been challenging, which we absolutely talk about in this episode. But we also talk about how he was able to break $1.5 million in billings last year and how he's even broken that record already this year. Ethan is someone that's inspirational, hardworking, and I'm so excited for all of you to learn from Ethan's journey so far. Enjoy. Ethan, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here.

Really excited for this one. I'll probably say that for most episodes, but having sat down with Jamie previously and now obviously sitting down with you, one of the success stories of Interact, being his first hire, being the top performer, I know a lot of people are going to be very interested in how you got there, the challenges along the way, and what you had to work through. But what we always like to start with, and what I'd love to get your sort of take on is, from your perspective and your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you believe make up a highly successful, high-performing recruitment consultant in today's market?

Well, what an intro, thanks for that. Um, yeah, look, I think there's quite a lot of traits. I don't think there's like one single word you can explain to, of why someone would be super successful. Um, it's such a competitive market nowadays, but I think in my case, I I believe the reason why I've been quite successful is that I've been very obsessive. Um, I just become obsessed with doing deals, reaching the next target, and being obsessed with that winning mentality. Um, and I've always been super disciplined. Um, even from a young age, I've been very focused on what I want to achieve. So yeah, I think in my case, it's always been obsessive. I've been disciplined. I've always been a hard worker. I've always been in early, been late, um, really putting in the effort. And I think being consistent doing that over the years, I think that's why it's led me to be the person I am today, really.

And are those the things— the obsessiveness, the persistence, discipline— are those the things that you think will enable people to achieve their goals, get to where they want to, still in like today's market? Because it would have changed a lot since your last 6, 7, 8 years in the industry.

Yeah, massively. I've never really sort of believed that— look, natural talent is good, right? Of course. But I think you haven't always got to be the best salesman for this job. I do believe recruitment is a massive mind game. I think it's a massive test on mentality. And I feel like coming into recruitment, as long as you've got the right mindset and the mentality to want to succeed, that beats talent. I think, you know, when people are lazy but they're talented, someone who's less talented but works harder will always outperform that person. And I think that's quite clear in recruitment.

Yeah, mindset's huge for sure. So for me, I really want to sort of really get into the weeds of like the last 6 years. Obviously it was 6 years of Interex August just gone, you were telling me earlier. Uh, but I guess let's just touch on, because I know before you joined Interex, uh, you had highs and lows, right? And it wasn't all plain sailing. So I guess what I'd just love you to share with us is how would you describe Ethan before recruitment?

Yeah, definitely not the man I am today. I mean, yeah, growing up I wasn't the best student. I was always messing around in school. I wasn't very academic. I just had no interest in going down that route, going to college, going to uni. Wasn't really my thing. I started work at 15, so I was in the office on the phones at 15 selling. So straight away I was on the phone wanting to make money and work hard. So yeah, I think it took me a long time to kind of adapt to the working environment and taking my career seriously. So I think, yeah, leading up to recruitment, I wasn't the best student, I wasn't the best kind of worker. But then when I got into recruitment at the age of 17, the reality hit and it really hit home, and that's when I really started to sort of adapt and grow up, really.

Where do you think— you mentioned earlier around the importance of persistence, obsession, work ethic— where do you think you got that from?

Yeah, oh, it's a hard question because, of course, I've got quite a supportive family and I've always kind of, you know, wanted to do well, but I've always kind of knew I was going to be successful. I just kind of had a feeling that I was going to do well. I didn't know what in, but I just knew I wanted to be somewhere. So I've always been very self-confident, not arrogant. I've been very self-confident in my abilities and knowing that I'm going to get somewhere. So I think with me, I've always looked at people and thought, well, if you can do it, I can do it. You know, we're all born the same way, we've all got the same DNA, you know, the same genetic makeup. So I thought, if he can do it, I can do it, surely. So I've always looked at other people in many industries and thought, right, okay, you know, I can see part of me in you, so I think I can do it. So I've always kind of had that mentality, and I've never really kind of given up. So I think that's why I've really wanted to just carry on in recruitment and do what I do best, really.

I love that. So let's, like, I'd love you just to share with us because we're just getting to know each other before we started this. Like, a lot of people, uh, counted you out in recruitment. Definitely, yeah. Right, what is it like? You got let go from what, 3? Was it 3 companies before you decided to join Jamie?

Yeah, embarrassingly, yeah.

But obviously, so a lot of people, yeah, uh, counted you out. What, what was it that you think— I don't know, I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what was it that you think was different about what you've ended up doing in the last 6 years that didn't sort of manifest in these other environments? Because I think we were saying before, right, that a lot of people can enter the recruitment industry, work for one company, it doesn't work out, and then they're like, oh well, recruitment's not for me. And we can lose a lot of sort of potential great talent in our industry due to that. But you persevered, you carried on despite, yeah, having those knockbacks and that rejection. And then you've then built this successful career in the last 6 years. So what, I don't know, if looking back, what were some of the key things maybe that you think had a real influence on you actually building a successful career rather than the previous companies? And obviously there's circumstantial stuff, but anything that looking back that you think really, I don't know, influenced these last 6 years?

I think joining recruitment at a very young age has definitely got something to do with it. I mean, I was like newly 17 when I started in recruitment, so I've still got my kind of schoolboy attitude, mentality, and that was a hard thing to shake off. Um, I had a bit of an attitude when I was younger, and I think coming into recruitment, I sort of saw it as like sort of fun and games, even though I wanted to make money and succeed and do well. I just really, yeah, I just didn't really sort of take it too seriously. And I think carrying that kind of attitude and that kind of mindset it definitely sets you back a few paces. But I think the reason why things started to change was because, first of all, I had a good mentor. I think having a good mentor in recruitment is so important. I don't think, you know, no matter how talented you are, how hardworking you are, how disciplined, if you haven't got a good mentor, it's very difficult to make it through in your recruitment career. So I had someone there to support me. But at the same time, finding the kind of right kind of culture, the right people to work with, you know, and then actually working with people that actually are successful. There's a lot of people in recruitment where, you know, they're kind of working like they've got a 9-to-5 mentality, you know, they're just happy getting the paycheck, you know, their life is very just— it's not really moving forward in the right direction. And when you're working around people that aren't really succeeding in recruitment the reality seems very far away because if you're looking at people that aren't really successful, you're thinking, well, okay, I've got no one to compare to, I've got no one to compete against. So naturally, when you're in that environment, I think it makes you take a step back. So the moment you go into an environment where you're working with high performers and people that are really successful, you want to drive towards that. Um, and I think that was a big part of it for me. I was in the right culture, the right environment, I had a good mentor. And then a light bulb kind of switched and thought, right, okay, like, I need to switch on here. I need to make something of myself because I've got no education to fall back onto. I've got no plan B. Like, this is it. I need to make sure I switch on. And that's what really happened, to be fair.

So just on that, I think it'll be helpful for people before we unpack this journey, like, with you going on the things you're saying, sharing there around like the culture, the people you can learn from, actually it being a really high-performance environment. What would your advice be to people who at the moment are interviewing at different companies or are looking at different recruitment companies? What would you say to them that you think would be good advice to help them identify the, the right types of cultures that they want to be part of? I think you can only sometimes gauge so much in the interview environment, you know what I mean? So I feel like for people, a big part of it, it can be overwhelming. There's so many recruitment companies. So thinking with what you know now and like how impactful that's been, what would you say to people that could be good advice on trying to find out, like, in that interview environment, maybe good questions or things to make sure you always ask that's going to give them more confidence that they're going to end up in a culture that's going to enable them to thrive?

Yeah, I think what people need to bear in mind, you're talking to salespeople when you're going into interview, right? So they're always going to sell you a dream, um, but being on both sides of the table It's so important that, you know, when you are going to a company and they are selling you that dream, you really need to push on that. You know, why is it going to be a dream? You know, what are the benefits? Why am I going to do well here? So, you know, when you're talking to these people in the interview, in a way you need to interview them, you need to interview the company. You know, you want to be— you want to talk to the top biller, you want to find out what numbers he's doing, why is he doing those numbers, Is there room for someone else to do those numbers? Um, and then you also want to find out about what the middle consultants are doing. I'd always want to find out, okay, what are they billing? What market are they doing? Okay, is there room for me to build in that market? Um, and then you want to understand who you're going to work with potentially. Because me personally, if I was working with someone who was only billing £100, £200, £300 grand a year, I don't want to work with someone like that because You know, if I'm going to be learning from someone like that with the ability to only build those numbers, it's not enough. You know, I want to learn from the best. So understanding who you're going to work with, you want to understand, okay, what kind of training have they got in place? That is so key because there's so many companies where, you know, you go and you do 1 or 2 weeks of training and then, right, that's it, you're left in the deep end. You want to understand, okay, what is the training course? How long does it go on for? What do you cover? Is it continuous support or is it just 2 weeks and that's it? You really will understand how deep their development is, and you will understand where you can move in the company. Is there progression? And then of course you want to find out about the culture, right? You want to find out what are their interests, you know, what incentives have they got? And that's going to be really important. I think it's so important to speak to as many people in the company to make sure you get a good feel for the business.

Such good advice, that. I love that. So let's unpack this journey, mate. So I'm— help me out here if I've missed any key stuff, but I know in prepping for this, I think what's always helpful is let's just give people listening some context as to like where you are today, and then we're going to talk about the challenges and the hardships that you have to go through to get there. But I think this, uh, obviously would just be good, um, perspective for people. So, so I've sat down with Jamie, uh, previously, uh, who's obviously the founder of the company Yeah, your boss, and you were his first hire, and you're now obviously pushing on circa 70+ people. So you've been on that whole journey in terms of where it is as a business today. And you've also got, obviously, an office in the UK and Miami. Obviously, you've always done contract, right?

Always.

And you've— I feel like one of the great things that Jamie and you guys have done is you've been very niche and very focused. So your market, correct me if I'm wrong, is Microsoft Dynamics, right? Yeah. Yeah, so you've been very focused on that, always done contract, uh, and then obviously at them, um, in the, the last year or however you do it, you were the, the top performer and your best year so far has been £1.5 million billings-wise, right? And then from a contract perspective, I think you said the highest point was your sort of weekly GP was around the £40K mark and that sort of circle around 70 contractors and runners.

Yeah, so that was, that was last year's numbers. Last year's numbers.

Were we in like, what, the 8th month of this year? Did you do January to December or what's your— No, we do, uh, January to December, so the full year. Yeah, so like, yeah, like you said, you're on track to hopefully beat that from last year, right?

Oh yeah, yeah. So, um, I've already kind of beat that already.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, so at the moment, um, I'm on track to doing £2 million this year.

Okay.

Um, yeah, my contract book at the moment is sitting about £58,000 going on £60,000 a week. Um, I'm pushing about 90 contractors now, so The growth is still there at the moment.

So that's where we are today.

That's where we are today.

People going, how the fuck has he done this?

Yeah, it's crazy, right? Even I can't believe I've done it. It's mad.

So, okay, cool. So that hopefully that's helpful for people of like, right, this is, this is where you are today. So I guess, I guess firstly, like, let's just, just go straight into like some of the like really challenging periods that you've really had to sort of work through, overcome, that's then enabled in the long run for you to get to this position. So let's just start with, before I say to you, like, looking in this sort of 6-year journey, what were some of the, like, the lowest moments that you really had to push through? What were some of the most challenging times where you might have doubted yourself? You might have thought, I don't think actually I'm going to be able to carry on and do this, or am I going to be able to achieve the goals that I think I can? Like, what were some of the most challenging periods for you on this journey so far?

There's been a lot, there really has. I mean, I've been through it literally multiple times. So I think for me, one of the most challenging things for me was I've literally seen my contract book, you know, plummet overnight. Literally going into December, having a bloodbath where, you know, contract book was, I think at one point, like 15K a week. It dropped down to like under 6K a week. So my earnings like more than halved. It was like terrible. Um, that's happened twice. Twice I've had that.

And when, when was that? And like, if you can remember roughly? Yeah, so this was about, um, not the particular month, but I guess was it in like the first 2, 3 years? Was it— has it been in the last—

it was about, I think, 2 or 3 years ago. Yeah, 2, 3 years ago it happened. Um, yeah, I think my third, third and fourth year it happened twice. Twice.

Wow.

Yeah. Um, and that was pretty hard to deal with because when you're a contract recruiter, you get so fixated on getting to the next milestone. It's like, get to 10K, get to 15K, get to 20K. And that requires so much effort. And when it gets taken away from you overnight like that, it's like, it's demoralizing.

Things you can't control, can't control it.

It's just, okay, right, budget's getting cut, product's ending, whatever reason, no one's getting extended. And it's just like, when that happens, it's like you realize the graft you've got to put back into it, and it's hard. Um, and I remember when it happened, at one point I thought I don't think I can do this again. I thought, yeah, like going from like under 6K a week back up to 15K a week, I'm thinking, I don't think I can do this. This is, this is going to be hard work. And having that mental struggle to, to get the drive and the hunger to do it again was hard. Um, but when it happened the second time, I thought, you've done it before, you can do it again.

So let's think about that first time then for a second, because I think that could be really relatable for people. Like, how's your feeling? What did— like, what did you do to try and snap out of it? Because you, like you said, you could have gone, can I do it again? You could have gone, I don't think I want to carry on with this.

Yeah.

So like, how— you could have— that could have just put you in a funk for however, however long. How did you like deal with that? Did you— I don't know, to go out for a walk? Did you go straight down to the pub? Like, how did you actually like deal with it and go and sort of come to the realisation of, like, you know what, I'm gonna crack on and do this again?

Yeah, don't get me wrong, like, I was low for at least a week. I'm thinking, like, yeah, my head was all over the gaff. I didn't know what to do. I was thinking, right, okay, is recruitment right for me? Am I really gonna get the life I wanna get from this? You know, I've put all the hard work in, why has this happened to me? All these thoughts are going through my head. And it took me about, yeah, at least a week to get my head straight. It really did. I had a few conversations with Jamie and I was like, right, okay, look, like, this is really shit. Like, what can I do? He gave me the support. It's happened to Jamie before, you know, overnight your book's down. It's happened to him before. So leaning on him, getting advice from him, thinking what I can do, going back to the basics, starting over again, setting a plan and going at it. And that was really, you know, what the focus was. I'd take a week, you know, get over it, cry about it, whatever you need to do. But then once you've done that, you need to get a plan in place and go at it again. Because it's a cliché, but recruitment is a roller coaster, right? You know, especially contracts. It really is. So you're going to get ups, you're going to get more downs than ups, 100%. But it's the way you learn from that and how you take that experience and use it to your ability. Um, but yeah, I think luckily I had good support and, and luckily I managed to get my mindset in the right place.

Now I appreciate you sharing that, like, yeah, it wasn't an overnight thing and it was a week. And then, so it sounds like— I was going to ask you what would be, if someone listened, listened to this right now is going through that, what you would advise their first step to be. But it seems like get out of your head and then get back to the things that you can control, which is what's my plan, what I'm going to do, and those things, right? So I guess I'd be interested to hear, like, with it happening a second time, obviously that's hard, but you've now got something to point to as to, I got out of it once, I can do it again. So how did you— did you do anything different in terms of to stop yourself from not, like, not being about it for a week? Like, did you handle it— how did you handle it different?

Yeah, I was having this conversation with one of the boys in the office the other day because sometimes they ask me, okay, like, how'd you do this? Like, getting advice from me. And, um, and one one of the boys was getting a bit down about because, you know, he weren't getting on jobs, things were dropping out, and he weren't— it just weren't working for him. And he was kind of asking me, like, what's your advice? What do you do? And, um, it was quite weird. I, I got to a point where I kind of saw recruitment as a game. I used to get quite emotional about it. Like, I got really angry, really fuming about it, and I really got— let it affect me and play with my emotions when things weren't going my way. But then when you've been in this industry a long time, you sort of laugh about it because it's like, it happens, you know, it's cliché, things always drop out, you know, there's always kind of mad reasons why things don't work. And when you've been in industry a long time, you kind of notice there's a pattern and you start to realize these things happen, they're out of your control most of the time, and you've got to get on with it. And I think once my mentality sort of changed of like, look, this is a game, it goes you're going to get wins, you're going to get losses. It's about learning from it and moving forward. Because if everyone was getting wins and everyone was doing well, everyone would be millionaires. And I sort of told myself, this is a test, you know, this is a test against you not doing well. This is a test to sort of prove, right, do you really want it? Do you deserve it? This is going to happen. And when I sort of told myself, these are just tests to prove, you know, do you really want it? Are you going to succeed? Once I got the mentality, I thought, okay, sweet, this is fine, learn from it, this is just a test, move on from it.

You took the emotions out of it, it sounds like.

Took the emotions out. You have to, you have to, because it's an emotional job. If you, if you let it— this, this job is, like I said before, this is a— you need a strong mentality. And if you've not got a strong head on your shoulders, this job will destroy you 100%, because there are so many ups and downs and you need to cope with that. And I think once you get into a mindset of this is the game, this is the industry, just flow with it. Once you get in that mindset, things become a lot easier and you've got a much more clear head to move on from things.

Do you have any like mantras that you live by? You know, those things like people like these things like, we go again, no one's died.

Yeah, like I'm not like— I know there's a lot of people that are into like meditation, affirmations and things like that. I'm not really into that kind of stuff.

Do you have a saying when it's like, right boys, we go again, we should be not back? Fine if you don't, but it seems like a lot of people do.

Yeah, like, I mean, look, shit happens, right? It is what it is. Like, it sounds like it is sales. It's the way of the world. Um, again, I'll just tell myself, like, this is a test. Whenever I get something that's difficult, I just tell myself, this is a test to prove that— are you hungry enough? Do you want it? And do you deserve it? And that's what I tell myself every single situation I get into.

It's a good way to frame it that way. So I guess just on this then, and then we'll go into like, yeah, your journey at the company and then also some of the things that you think you've really had to master and has impacted on your success. But again, we've got the benefit of hindsight now.

Yeah.

So you've had that happen twice. Is there anything that you've sort of taken from those experiences where your contract book has massively reduced? Obviously sometimes a big part of it can be stuff outside of your control, but is there anything that you really keep a close eye to now that could be markers or indicators of, wow, okay, I've just found out that information, or I've just heard this, or I've seen this happen over the last couple of weeks. I'm a bit concerned here that my book could be quite vulnerable.

Yeah.

What have ended up being some of the markers and things that you've taken from those experiences, if any?

Yeah, so one of my biggest things was complacency. Wow. I got really complacent. Um, because when you are doing well, the money's rolling in, the deals are rolling in, and the job becomes easy. It's very easy to be like, right, cool, sit back, relax, you know, this is just— it's flowing. Um, and then you start missing the basics. Small things like catching up with your contractors on a regular basis, you know, if he's been working there 6 months, he's all right, you get it, don't worry about it. Your client, yeah, you know, they'll come to me when, when I need someone. Um, and it's so key about caring about your business, because as a contract recruiter, even a permanent recruiter, you know, you've got your own desk, you're running the business, and if you don't care about your business, things will fall through. And I think with me, I got so complacent sometimes, I'd miss out on things. For example, I'd have clients where, you know, I'd think, oh, they'll reach out to me when they need me, and then I would catch up with them in a couple months' time and be like, oh, having a catch-up. Oh yeah, we hired 2 people last month. And it's like, that's business I missed out on because I was being complacent. One of my contractors, assuming that he's happy, he might have some personal issues or he might be unhappy with his manager. And me not having a catch-up with him is— could affect him leaving, and I don't know about it. So I think being complacent is one of the biggest killers in contract recruitment, especially when you're a high biller. And I think I had numerous conversations with Jamie about it because he realized it is don't get complacent. And he kept me on the ball and making sure that I'm doing all the small things and all the basics to make sure I can continue to grow.

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Yeah, I think experiences have definitely impacted me. Again, I've been doing recruitment 8 or 9 years now, right? So I've kind of been through a lot, and I think the pain of, of sort of, you know, seeing your book fall down to like over half overnight, and, you know, having to build that money back up again and build up that contract book, I think that's that is a big pain for me. And the thought of my book, like, going overnight is— oh, it's a killer. And I think—

so you remind yourself of that?

Yeah, reminding myself of, you know, the graft it put— no one likes to graft, right? You know, everyone would love to be lazy. No one likes to work hard and graft. And I think knowing that, going back to that— okay, I've got a graft, I've got to hit the phones— I think that's, again, that's what's like— I don't want to be doing that. I'm in a good place right now. I don't want to be doing the extra hard hours. I don't want to be working 14-hour days every week, um, and starting over again. I think that has pushed me on to, to be on top of things. But I think for me as well is I've always, you know, I've always written things down, you know, all my important topics I write it down. And if it takes me a month, 2 months, 3 months to complete it, so what? As long as I'm chasing every day and it's there and I'm noting it down, that has helped me as well, staying on top of things. And and not being complacent, you know. Even it's like, catch up with John, catch up with him, whatever it is. It's just small things like that to make sure that you aren't being lazy and being on the back foot. That's the key things I sort of do, really.

Okay, right. So let's get into— I think what people will be really keen to hear about is sort of, again, taking a step back, some of the things that you think you've had to do, like, really well. So I think I remember taking a note of this when we're preparing for this. I think this is sort of an interesting insight. So let's just now sort of focus and talk about some of the things that you think have enabled you to be successful beyond like putting in the graft, persistence. People obviously, yeah, really want to understand just more of like the day-to-day, what it looks like. You're like, when we're saying doing the basics, what does that look like? But something you said to me in preparation for this was you said one of the things that you avoid— I don't know how long this has been— but you avoid the UK. And the markets you operate in. You said, look, I do business in most countries, not the Australian market because the time zone challenges. But you, uh, I don't know how long period, but yeah, you avoid the UK and then obviously work in different parts of the world. Talk to me about why you feel that way about the UK market. I feel like that would influence—

yeah, it's not what it used to be. So when I started recruitment, I was 17. A while ago. I'd done the UK market and it was a good market because, you know, you didn't have IR35. And for people that don't know what it is, research it, because if you're doing contract recruitment in the UK, you need to know about it because it basically makes it impossible to work with contractors in the UK and make contract deals. That was a massive killer. I knew some UK contract billers that had like 15, 20K a week books, and literally when that policy come out, it went to zero overnight. Literally. So that killed the UK market. That's a big reason why. And another reason why is because you've got more than 45,000 recruitment companies in the UK, and they will do the UK market. So you've got a lot of competition, and no matter how good you are as a salesperson, what solutions you're offering, it's hard to compete when you've got a client who's getting bailed 15, 20 times a day. Like, I agree if you're offering and your solution is, is great, but it makes it very competitive and it's just not a market I want to work in. Um, and I think a lot of people watching this can agree that the UK market has, has lost their golden years. It has. And international is the way forward now, 100%.

So, uh, talk to me about— we won't have to go into all the details, but like thinking of you, um, achieving the numbers that you're going to this year, like how diversified is that? Like, is that spread across like, yeah, Europe, Asia, these things? Like, what, how, how sort of diversified has it ended up being in order for you to do the sort of numbers that you've been doing?

Yeah, it's quite diverse, to be fair. I mean, my, my majority of my, my contractors are across mainland Europe, um, but I've got contractors— I have got some contractors in the UK, I have. It's not my preference, but I have. It's UK, Europe, the Middle East. I've got contracts in Africa, Canada, the US, and also Latin America. So it's really spread across.

That's interesting because I think that also sort of, I think that's good education for people on their strategy on how they can grow their contract books, right? Like you mentioned a few different places there, which I'm assuming, yeah, enables different opportunities to grow it, right? Rather than just being specific to one place.

Yeah, definitely.

So what I'd love to hear your take on then, uh, is like from your point of view, like what, what— I don't know, it might be 1, 2, 3 things. Like what is it that contract recruiters have to master to, to sort of achieve the sort of things that you've been able to achieve and will continue to? What is it that you believe they have to master? We can go granada here. Like what is it that people have to master, do you think?

Oh, it's hard to sort of pin it down to like 2 or 3 things because I, I, there is a bundle of things you need to sort of master, um, and it's a long learning curve. Um, but going back to what I said in the beginning, um, you need to be obsessive. You need to be obsessive because, look, if you're happy to come into recruitment and, you know, earn 50, 60, 70, 80k a year, you know, that's fine. But, you know, you can do that by just probably plodding along, doing the average numbers, you know, and just about hitting target. But if you really want to be the best of the best and you want to be the best in the industry, you need to be obsessed. You have to be, because, you know, you don't get to the top of your game by being lucky and by being lazy and being average. You really need to be obsessed of getting to the top. And also as well, I think you need to sort of realise that the journey never ends. I think a lot of people think, oh, you know, once I get here, that's me, I'm done, I'm happy. The goalpost always moves, and I think you need to be in a mentality where you understand that. You know, in my head it was like, okay, once I get to 50K a week, that's a good, good target. Once I've got there, I'm like, let's get 60. Now I've got to there, I'm like, let's get 70. So I think you need to have an endless appetite. I think you need to just want to achieve and achieve and achieve. And discipline, that's the key thing. You know, I won't say you need to be good on the phone, you need to be a great salesman. Of course it's great, it's important, but like I said, hard work beats talent. You need to be disciplined. If you have the right mentality and you follow the right process and you're consistent and you stick to it, you will achieve results. And I think if you've got that kind of attitude and that kind of focus, I think you will be a successful contract recruiter, 100%.

Talking about discipline, man, people love this. Yeah, talk to me about your day plan, mate.

Like, my day plan?

Yeah, like, what— like, again, people, people want granular. So, like, what's right now where you're at and, and the numbers you're doing? Like, what does— what are the typical day— what does a typical day look like for you? What are your non-negotiables? When do we start? What we're doing in the morning? If that's something that you believe is really fundamental to people achieving their goals. Let's talk about that. I think that'd be really helpful for people.

Yeah, 100%. Look, my, um, things are different for me now because, you know, I'm, I'm kind of in a situation now where I haven't really got to be hitting the phones anymore. You know, I've got my clients, um, a lot of my stuff comes to me now, so I'm not having to hammer the phone 200 times a day.

Why don't we do it then when like you was on the rise, right? Because I think that's fair because you've got I can't remember, there's like 3 or 4 people on your team and you're growing that, right? Yeah, sort of delivery consultants and support you.

Yeah.

So why don't we, if you can sort of remember, like, on the rise, Ethan's on the rise, I'm here to make my money.

Hungry, you know what I mean?

Yes, like, because you, to get to that point where you are now, you've worked your absolute socks off. So rightly so, you've got people coming back to you and then you've got more space to do other things, develop the team, support. But yeah, talk to me about, yeah, Ethan on the rise. Wanted to absolutely smash it. What, yeah, what does that day look like? The fundamentals?

I was very robotic.

Okay, yeah, that's what we want.

Yeah, yeah, very right. Yeah, 100%. Like, again, this is— this comes down to being— going back to the whole discipline and being obsessed. Um, every single day I've done the same thing day in, day out. Like, structure was on point, day plan was written out. Literally, you're getting in the morning, I'm checking my emails, my LinkedIn messages, I'm looking at my alerts on LinkedIn.

What time is this?

Typically back in the day I got in at 8, not anymore, getting at half 8. Okay, I've earned the right to get in later now.

Okay, so you got in at 8.

Yeah.

And what, so you're checking in your LinkedIn emails?

Yeah, looking at my LinkedIn alerts. So I'll go on my LinkedIn alerts and that would show me anyone that has updated their LinkedIn profile so I can find out any new projects they're working on. If somebody's gone to a new company, they've changed, I'll think, okay, right, He's gone to that company, that's a new project I can approach. Mapping out the market in the morning, looking at posted jobs in the morning, seeing what companies are hiring, catching up with all my senior contractors, find out where they're going, what the plans are. And then the minute it hit half 8, I was on the phone.

Sit down, 30 minutes, just on it.

Yeah. So the first half an hour in the morning, it was just like getting my day plan sorted, get everything on check, looking at all my messages. Planning, and then half 8 it was militant on the phone.

What we're doing, what?

BD.

Just BD.

I was always a BD guy.

Um, so about half 8 till what, when?

Yeah, so literally, so in the start of my career it was split. I was, you know, half 8 until, you know, half 9 talking to candidates, and then I was, you know, doing BD from half 9 until 12, and then from 1:30 until 6, clients, and then after that candidates. I was structured like that, but then towards the latter end of my career, I would just BD, BD. That's what I wanted to do. Um, but I've always been very big on being on the phone, so I was always making sure I was dialing. So it's so key that you're not spending all your time on emails and your LinkedIn recruiter. You need to be on the phone 100%. So, um, having that militant structure of hits half 8, you're on the phone, that was the key thing for me. But Yeah, I think, um, my structure was very rigid. I was always making sure I was hitting the targets every day, making sure that my checklist was ticked off. I wouldn't leave that day if my checklist wasn't ticked off, even if it was just small things like admin tasks. I wouldn't leave until it's done. And having that robotic mindset eventually leads up to being successful.

What did you set yourself, like, specific goals? If you're doing so much BD and stuff, did you set yourself specific goals in those times? In that, in that time period? Like, was like, right, I want to have like 10 new hiring manager conversations this period. I'm not— yeah, that's what I'm aiming for. Like, did you do that? Or—

yeah, so the one thing with me, like, KPIs are very important because it gives you structure and something to work towards, but I was never really motivated by KPIs. Because if my KPI was, you know, I'll talk to 10 clients, I wouldn't get 10 clients, but like, right, okay, that's me done for the day. Like, I was always like, okay, get to 12, get to 14, get to 15. So, um, yes, I had like a site to work towards of like, okay, I want to talk to at least 10 clients a day. That was my focus. But then I wouldn't stop if I got to 10, for example. Um, but yeah, it was always very important having KPIs to work towards.

And then if you're doing, if you're doing that much of it, like, what are you, what are you doing? Because I feel like where a lot of people lose time, I'm sure you see this with your guys and girls, is they can, they, they're like, right, yeah, Ethan, half 8 till 12, I'm gonna do BD, really, really focused time and sessions. And then you find that they're like researching and they're like finding the people they want to call, these things. Like, did you do this sort of pre-BD work? So then when you do go into that time, you, you just got people that you know you want to be sort of trying to get hold of, trying to speak to. Like, did you do much of that?

Yeah, 100%. Um, so I The way I work, I chase the project. So whenever I got news on a hot new project, I was like, that's what my target is. So I mean, I think I had about, at one point, about 1,000 clients on my spreadsheet that I would target every day. But then out of those 1,000, I'd probably have about 50 projects where there were new projects, they're big, they're higher contractors, and I was like, right, I've got to get in there. And I would set aside time to specifically focus on that, contacting all the managers, emailing them, connecting on LinkedIn, leaving voicemails, calling like 2 or 3 times a day. I was really militant on, on contacting those, those particular projects.

Yeah, so you got the focus from that spreadsheet?

Yeah.

And then how did you typically get this information? Is this through your candidate network typically?

Yeah, there's a lot of ways, um, but with me, I would I would spend an hour, sometimes even 2 hours, every evening, uh, mapping out the market. So what I would do, I would go onto LinkedIn, I would, um, run a search of my market. So I'll do Dynamics. So I'd run a search in Dynamics and I would strip every single profile on LinkedIn that has Dynamics in their profile, and I would go, right, okay, that company uses Dynamics, I know it down. And I would target every single company and go at them. So it all come from my LinkedIn projects and my searching, stripping the CVs, talking to contractors, finding out where they're working. That's a key one, because if you're talking to a contractor and he's told you, I'm working for Barclays Bank, you know that Barclays Bank hire contractors, they're running the projects, it's in your market, and that's an angle. And especially, you know, if it's a contractor you know very well, it's an angle for you to potentially get introduced by that contractor as well. So I was always big about talking to contractors and mapping on LinkedIn. That was all my key thing.

It's so interesting that because people probably see that as super boring, but that's clearly been fundamental to like just being militant with that. And then you— yeah, that information is so powerful. Yeah, I feel like particularly in contract recruitment, obviously permanent recruitment, it shows up in different ways, but I think in contract recruitment and chasing those projects if you've really got your ear to the ground and you're doing that legwork of the boring market mapping, these things, but then you're the first person to get in on that project and talk to them, then that's huge, right?

Yeah, look, like the first 2-3 years of recruiting your career, you need to do the dog work. If you do the dog work in the first 2-3 years, it will set up your career 100%. So in the early days, I was there till like half 7, 8, 8:30 at night. Just mapping the market, stripping all the projects, so then adding on my spreadsheet. So when I come in the next day, I can just hit the phone and I can just smash through it. And that was a key thing for me for building up my numbers and just reaching as many clients as possible.

So as we come towards the end here then, mate, talk to me about— obviously you've been on this, um, I was catching up with a friend the other night who's been on a sort of similar journey where when we first met, there's like 11 people in the recruitment company he worked for. Now Yeah, they're getting close to 100. Obviously you was Jamie's first hire, started in a small office in Loughton, USA.

Yeah.

And obviously, yeah, where you guys are now, office in Miami. Like, what's that journey been like? Like, what has it been like to be part of a company like that? Because I know you guys haven't— you guys, from wherever I take it externally looking in, like, and the way that you're talking today, you're not settling, you're not getting complacent.

No.

So like, what's it been like to be part of because I'm sure Jamie sat you down and go, look, this is where we're going, it's big, and it's sort of actually manifested and you're on your way. What's that actually been like?

It's mad because literally our first office, you can literally put your arms out and touch the walls. It was literally— it was tiny. It was literally me and Jamie in this tiny office. And from day one, we're like, we've always had this vision and spoke about the vision of where the company's going to go to. Um, and seeing it happen, it is crazy because, you know, you've got two young Essex lads in a small office grafting away, and then fast forward 6 years, we've got a 100+ man office in London, got an office in Miami. It's growing crazy, it's growing really fast. And being part of that journey and seeing the company change and evolve and adapt, that has been crazy, scary, But it's exciting at the same time. But, you know, it's moving in the right direction and everything we've said we're gonna do, we've done it plus more. So I'm very confident that everything we're gonna set out to do, we're gonna achieve because we've already done it with flying colours.

So hard work, all the things that you've spoken about today, definitely doing that and you're obviously making sure that your people have that. But taking a bit of a step back, what do you think has been some of the the key ingredients to the recipe of like this company really, yeah, kicking on and doing well? Because I think a lot of recruitment companies will say this is where we want to be in 6 years. Yeah, not as many get there. So like from your perspective, uh, like taking a step back, what do you think have been some of the key ingredients that maybe, uh, yeah, Jamie's really tried to cultivate the culture or has sort of manifested in your culture? What do you think those are?

It's definitely been the people, 100%. Um, it's, you know, culture isn't built by one person, it is built by a team. And everyone that we've hired, they buy into us, they buy into the company, they buy into the brand. And especially the people that have been there, you know, the last few years or so, they can see where the company's going and they believe it. So I think the reason why we are where we are today is, of course, the people. We all believe the vision, we believe where we're going. You know, we've had the best training you can probably get in the industry. Everyone is learning the proper way how to do recruitment. We're learning how to sell, sell solutions, and the marketing of the business has been very key as well. So I think it's been down to obviously a lot of sacrifice and discipline as well. We've got one of the hardest working sales floors in London. I genuinely believe that, you know, the graft that the boys put in on a daily basis is second to none. And I think when you've got a culture where everyone wants to earn money and do well, it's hard to find that. If you go to a recruitment company in London, like, you might get the odds, you know, 1 or 2 guys in the office are billing like £10k a week, £15k a week. Like, we've got 10+ people that are billing £10k, £15k, pushing £20k a week. You don't really see that in recruitment. So everyone is super hungry and everyone's got the appetite to do well. And when you've got a group of people with the appetite and hunger to succeed, it's a dangerous thing.

So look, uh, what— like, I'd love to just sort of end on this, really. People counted you out. You wasn't sure what you're gonna do. Um, you've worked extremely hard to get to where you, you've got to. Still young, right? And I think this is one of the amazing things about our industry.

Yeah.

Like, anyone maybe who knew you, um, the teenager years could have easily said, I'm not sure where he's going to end up, right? Why do you think more young people should choose a career in recruitment? Like, I really, I'm really passionate about that. I think a career in recruitment can help so many people in so many different ways, massively, beyond even staying in the industry in terms of the skills it equips you with and those things. Yeah, so like, what's your view on that considering the journey that you've been on? Why should more young people choose our industry to work in and choose it as a career?

I think recruitment genuinely gives people the keys to really, like, change their life. In many ways, it can make you obviously a lot wealthier. That's the key thing. It can actually give you a steady career progression. You know, you can go in so many different directions in recruitment, so you can get a strong career. You know, you're going to be in an environment where you actually want to go to work in the morning. You're going to be around good people, um, and you're going to be in a situation where you're going to fast-track your career. Because there's— by the time people in my school were coming out of uni, I was already making six figures and I was already like in a senior position in my company. Um, what other industry can you think of where you've got 18, 19, 20, 21-year-olds that are earning good money you know, they're senior in the business, they're respected. It's hard to find that. Um, and I think especially in my case where I come from a background where I wasn't very academic, I had no interest in school, going to uni, going to college. There's thousands of kids out there that are in the same position as me when I was a kid where you don't really know where to go, don't know what to do. You know, there isn't really a lot out there in terms of guidance to to what you can do after leaving school, because the system ain't really— the way the system is in school, it's like you go to sixth form, you go college, you go uni, you get a professional job in the city, and that's it. But with recruitment, it really gives you the key to really put it all to one side. You know, you use your genuine passion, your hunger, your discipline, all those core fundamental sort of skills that you can be born with, and you can really apply that to recruitment and really make something of yourself. And that's why I think recruitment is such an amazing industry for young people.

Love it. Ethan, it's been an absolute pleasure. Kudos to you, mate. Really enjoyed that.

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Thank you very much, mate. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.