From $1M Loss to $1M Profit: The Rebuild of Oscar US with Kevin Holt

Kevin, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

We have got a lot to unpack here. Yeah, you, you've been on— I generally feel always lucky when I get to sit down with people like yourself because you've been through such an interesting journey, and we may not be able to cover all of it today, but you know, you've been with Oscar for over a decade.

Yep.

None of those years you've been specifically building your career, helping build Oscar in the US. And I think I said to you, like, you're someone that I know has helped other people, or people reach out to. Something that's become more and more typical over the last 2 years is UK recruiters or UK recruitment businesses coming over to the States.

Yeah.

So we get the privilege here to talk about all the things you've had to learn the hard way.

Yeah, it's been, it's been a journey.

And then We're also going to talk about the things that, yeah, you're now doing, what you're doubling down on to really make sure that we continue building the success of Oscar in the States.

Yeah.

So our goal really is we're going to break down this period of you helping build Oscar in the States from your time coming over here, because obviously you spend also a chunk of time for Oscar in the UK. Yeah. But we're just going to focus on this US journey. So To give everyone a bit of context, let me not forget any of this wrong, but as I said, already mentioned how long you've been with Oscar, but then when you originally came over here, their main office over here was Houston. That was the main base at that time. Around that time, there was around 7 heads. You had a contract offering that was around $11K weekly GP, but that was a bit around the business as to when you came over here.

Yeah, I think it was actually 11K for the month.

Oh, for the month?

Yeah, so probably like 2.5, 3 grand a week.

Yeah, so I had that. And then, I mean, just a bit of context here along, along the way, but at the peak, we're talking boom period, there's around 100 people across the US. We had offices in Austin, Philly, Tampa, San Diego. Um, you know, at the, the peak of US Oscar, who's doing circa between $40 to $46 million revenue.

Yeah.

10% profit margin, so EBITDA around, you know, $4 to $4.5 million at its peak. And then you'll know this because you lived through it, but a lot of companies had a challenging period. We got 18 months as a bit of a tough period. There was office closures, there was, you know, money being lost. So we really went through a lot of change, which we were going to talk about. And then today The US part of Oscar is all centralized in Austin HQ, which now you live here, you have your family here, and we have circa 40 people across the US because there's still other offices. And we're back to making profit. So just had your most recent financial year and finished just over $1 million in profit. So we've sort of broke this down into a few chapters, haven't we? Yeah. So we've, we've got the first part, which is very much you moving over here. What went on there, what did we learn, what changes did we have to make. Then we've really got going through this expansion period, this boom period where we had COVID in there. We had where we got to the sort of peak revenue numbers, profitability numbers. We've then had that challenging period of 18 months up to around mid-2024. And then we've really had— I've got here reset, rebuild, and we're really in the trenches with that now. And moving forward. So we've got a lot to unpack.

We do. Yeah.

What, what do you like— if I think I asked you this, but just to set the scene, if me and you sat down before you flew over to Houston and were moving your life back out to the States, because I know you had a real stint here before even we had this opportunity with Oscar personally, but if me and you met for a coffee and you was, you know, flying to Houston that day, and I said, oh, what, what's, what's the plan? What's, what's the plan? Then you're going over to Houston, what's going on? Like, what was the intention of you coming over to the States at that time?

I think, I think my first visit was actually to see if we wanted to move to Houston. So me, the wife, my two kids at the time, we jumped on a plane for two weeks. We're like, let's go see it, we might do it, we might not, let's see if we like, um, Houston. And, um, yeah, the first day I met the team, it was like, I hate Oscar, I'm leaving, this is the worst place I've ever been. We're interviewing, we're looking for different, um, business to work for. It was like a crazy situation. And I didn't actually go and look at any of Houston. It was like, I went back that day, spoke to the missus, was like, we're moving. She's like, what? We're not even seeing the place. I was like, but I want this challenge. So I think actually, if you'd have asked me on a coffee at the airport I probably would have still been like, I'm probably not gonna do it. It wasn't like I had this burning desire to go to the US. It was probably more, let's just explore it, you know.

Probably what was the hesitation?

I think obviously you mentioned I've done a stint before in Ohio, uh, where I went to university, kind of left in awkward terms, uh, bad relationship, that type of stuff. And I just didn't have this great feeling about the US. I think the directors at Oscar at the time knew I had a son out there, so it made sense to them, and they were pushing it. They'd asked me a few times to come out, but I was like, I just don't think I'm gonna do it. But, um, even when we committed, it was like, I think I'm only just gonna do a year, let's just see how it is.

And how would you describe the challenge? Like, what, what was the, the challenge? Was it like, I completely need to rebuild this team from the ground up? Or I don't know, how, what, how would you describe the challenge that you was like, you know, actually this would be a really good challenge for me. Yeah, let's go for it.

Yeah. So I think there's probably two sides to this. I think my initial feeling was this is a real talented group, like they all talk sense, they all come out here with good purpose, they all came out for the right reasons. They just wasn't engaging Oscar. And I think my team in the UK was very galvanized, so I thought I could positively affect that, bring it as one business. The other side of it is I kind of selfishly thought, well, if it does fuck up, it's not my fault, like the damage was already done. So I thought it was, um, although it was a risk moved my wife and kids out there. My kids weren't in school, um, there was nothing lost, and I could have gone back to my old job if it didn't work out.

So, and like, if— because I think at this, at the, at this point, that particular team with its own P&L was losing money, right? So I got here, there's one trainee, 6 experienced, trained differently, no synergy. Like, what were some of the, like, the initial first 3 to 6 months? What were the main things that you really wanted to try and influence?

Yeah, so I think, I think all got in some bad habits driven by the business itself. So the message was very much, we need perm business, we need to pay the bills, like, go do what you can do to, to get a deal. It wasn't like, this is how you're going to do deals, this is how we're going to work. So although we had 7 pretty talented people, they were all just doing their own thing in their own way. So it was trying to align some processes, bring people together. Um, we separated some people out that they were doing tech, there was a couple legacy people that stayed in oil and gas, but I think it was actually having the group as one. Like, that was the main thing. They felt like they were part of something. They felt like they were wanted. Like, they felt like the ugly stepsister. That's how it was. Like, very little things, like, um, the UK would get a bottle of champagne, they wouldn't get any. So, like, really minute differences, which wasn't a big cost, but my predecessor just thought he couldn't spend any money because they were losing money. Where I was kind of just like, let's get it, let's go do it, you know, we've got to speculate to accumulate. And, you know, that's, that was kind of the way we move forward.

This is, this is something that— bringing it forward a bit, just, just something that has just been an interesting lesson with conversation over the last few months, where I do really believe if you're working for an organization that has like a clear market strategy, yeah, I do really think that you're stacking the odds in your favor, like career-wise, because if you end up in an organization and you look around and basically like you just said there, we've got 7 people who work who on the door it says Oscar, but we've potentially got maybe 3, 4 different businesses in there, because they're in different markets. There's no cross-selling opportunities. We can, you know, bring this forward in terms of how I feel about that now. But I do think there's probably quite a few companies out there where that might be the case.

Yeah.

And I think that can really hold back potential of an office. If you look around and it's like, hang on a minute, we've got like 4 different individual one-man-band businesses under one roof.

Yeah, it was almost like having— take the training out the equation— it's like having 6 failing businesses in one building because they're all doing so many different things. But when I went out there, it was very, very much like stop a sinking ship. But in some ways I was thinking, why have you not just closed this? Like, that would have been the easier option. Obviously it's turned out it was the right decision, but for me it was, let's just get doing deals. Let's make sure we're looking at perm and contract. You're all doing tech, you're going to be aligned in this way. You're staying on gas because the two oil and gas guys, to be fair to them, they were actually the most consistent and were making money. Um, you know, and out of that group of 7 people, I think 3 of them have their own business now. And actually, who you already know, he's, you know, he does £2.5 million a year every year in contract. So like, it was a good talented group. And that's what helped us actually, like, have the successful few years following that.

So let's— leading up to this sort of next chapter where basically you went on this journey from that point where over the next few years you ended up turning this around to be a profitable business.

Yeah.

Before we get into this sort of boom period, I guess one of the things that you shared with me was where you managed to get to this was around 50/50 permanent contract. We had energy and tech, so there was clear sort of focuses there. But something you shared with me which we can talk about, because I know this will resonate with a lot of people, but you said you, you struggle to grow beyond that sort of 12 to 14 headcount mark. Yeah. Talk to us a bit about that. Like, what, what was the, the main blocker there? What was the, the thing that you found yourself continue to trip over? Maybe what, what was it that you really struggle with?

Yeah, so again, I think there's a few different elements to it. So if I look back at our Manchester office, it was all trainee driven. You bring through trainees, you train them the right way, they go off and build and become integral parts of the business. We'd always hired experienced people for the most part in the US, or they'd been UK transfers. And it was very cyclical with the oil and gas price. So we went through a couple of different rounds of personnel where the oil price crashed. We ended up having to go through and cycle out employees. But, um, I think the trainee part was the biggest, the biggest issue for us in Houston. So I remember the first trainee we ever hired, she turned up in a brand new Hummer. German, she had the best car in the office earning 40 grand a year, or 35 grand a year probably would have been back then. So we're hiring people who were actually quite well off. They had parents that were able to subsidize the car payments, the phone payment. They were still living at home, they had no bills to pay. So they're taking home 3 grand, 3 grand a month, and they're, they're laughing with it. Like, so they didn't need to earn commission. And I think when I look at other cities Houston just has a negative migration of young professionals. Anyone that's a young professional, they typically go to Austin, they go to New York, they'll go out to California, they'll go to Florida. So they're not staying in Houston. And that was it. The demographic we wanted to build around just wasn't there. Yeah.

And this is something that's come up a lot, I'll be honest, particularly in Austin, where it does really seem like for a lot of companies that have come over here, that has been their number one challenge is like growing internally. So it sounded like then you tried to play the same playbook that worked in Manchester, which was get people through, we'll train them up, we'll invest in them, and they could be our future leaders, superstars. And that, that just became really difficult, which didn't quite work. Obviously part of it is where you're located, and we'll go into the different locations that you went into. But anything that you learned there the hard way, like from my conversations, there's a few things that I picked up on, but this would be something that you've probably got way better at now because it will still apply now in terms of your hiring strategy. But what is it that you had to learn the hard way there, besides it maybe not being the best location for young up-and-coming professionals?

Yeah, I think, I think it was tricky back then because we didn't have any training platform either, you know. We, we're kind of just winging it. We didn't have really the content. We're trying to— then the, the American people like, well, this is all in pounds and pence, like they will get pissed off. It's not about dollars, like little things. But I think we, we had to put our own stamp on it. And that's what we've done going forward. We've got our own US-centric training material. It's delivered in office by the people out here. It's not delivered by people remotely in the UK, which I don't think is the right way to do it. Obviously for an interim period it'll work, but I think we definitely got value training on site, having new billing managers that knew the training on site, like they were the ones. But, um, Austin for me, like, we've not found that as much of a problem. There's probably different problems with growing Austin from an entry-level point of view. But everyone that we do hire, they all need money. So they're flying in from California, they're coming from Minnesota, Arkansas, Houston, Dallas, wherever it might be. So they are very independent. They've got bills to pay, they've got the rent to pay. But then we kind of have an issue where we actually lost two trainees that were actually quite, quite good and had high potential because one of them both got offered jobs at 80 grand. Bases 3 months into a trainee position.

Really? Yeah.

So, and that was through parents, like they weren't looking. It's from like, um, I think one was an anti-ex-S3 and one was the mum works at like a Salesforce affiliate or something, so sales position still, but £80,000 base is doubling the base. So like, that's very hard to compete with, compete with that. Yeah, because they've not really seen the commission yet either.

So, so do you feel like on reflection that really was one of the, the things that held you guys back? So like that nucleus of what, 10 to 12 people including yourself in there? Was that typically made up of UK recruiters that moved over there then?

Yeah, yeah, it was. We were 80% UK.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think, you know, I probably would have— it was almost like a personal battle to try and make bringing trainees work. Um, looking back, probably should have carried on hiring more experienced people because Houston's great for people with families, like a great location, great schools. But they all want higher bases, so controlling the out— the outgoings on a base point of view was quite tough because you— we were paying trainees £40,000, £50,000. Probably should have looked at paying £80,000, £90,000 to real experienced people who we could have built around from a client point of view. Yeah.

How do you— just to bring it forward as we're talking about it, like, how, how do you feel about that entry-level model today? Like, how would you— like, how do you envision growing the Austin office, for example? Like, do you feel like going completely entry-level is dead? Does it need to be a blend of both? Let's talk about that for a sec because that clearly is a lesson.

Yeah.

Like, how are you feeling about that, that today?

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a model we're going to continue with. I think sometimes we, we try different ways of doing it, like giving them a market day one. Rather than actually a bedding-in period where they're just doing delivery. Um, so we've gone back and forth on that, but I definitely think the trainees we've hired in Austin, they've— to me, they have that grit, the work ethic, you know, they're doing what's needed. I think go back a couple of years ago, maybe that wasn't the case, but I think the good thing about trainees today, like, they want to be in office because they missed out during COVID with a lot of like remote learning. So they, they kind of don't want to be in that same situation from a work situation. They want to be around the, um, the peers, they want to have fun, they want to be social. So I still think that model works, um, but I do think there's, there's kind of little things that we've got to tweak with that around the delivery side, really.

What in, what in terms of how you embed the menu, man?

Yeah, so like when they're like assigned just to a billing manager, let's say, they'll work the billing manager's jobs. Then we change it where they get a market day one. So like the billing manager's not necessarily as incentivized because they're not getting their jobs worked, they're still having to do it, which was— that was one of the sells for the billing manager initially. So I think that bedding in period, doing delivery for 4 to 6 weeks is probably what's needed. I think they're more accustomed and confident making the calls as long as we don't make it a fear factor then.

And then just something I've picked up on, just to touch on it now as we're talking about the entry level, have you found— you'll have success stories of both, but like, now is your typical profile someone that's coming straight out of college, or actually is it more people that went to college but have had some sort of experience, maybe been in a sales job, or like have had some work experience before you potentially speak to them about a career at Oscar?

Yeah, good, good question. I think timing-wise, so we'll hire usually around Jan, Feb, you get December graduates, May, June for May graduates. If I was to hire right now, I would want someone that's got a couple of years of sales experience as a trainee because I think, why have you not found a job from May when you graduated, right? So my ideal would be someone that's already done sales, they've got a couple of years experience, they still want to stay in sales, because I think that's the hardest thing. Lots of entry-level, um, people that are coming straight from university, they've got degrees in everything but sales, and, um, tell us they want to do it. Lo and behold, maybe 3, 6 months in, they decide they don't. So as long as it's someone that's maybe got a year, 2 years experience in a sales position and you want to continue in sales That'd be ideal for us.

And one of the bits that I picked up on since speaking to people preparing for these conversations is you sort of mentioned it earlier with a bit of an example, but having to really also appeal to the people that you hire's parents is something here in terms of people carry a lot of pride, maybe more so in the UK in terms of where their children go to college and where they're going. So in a few of my conversations, it's sort of been said that, you know, how much— like, how these, uh, how these people perceive Oscar and what you can give them is just as important as how you perceive them. Yeah. And parents will have a say in some instances. Like, had a few stories with people that when talking about this, that they've, they've literally had people, uh, leave or even choose a different company because their parent thought that was best.

Yeah.

I don't know if you can—

No, I agree, I agree. And I think the two girls I mentioned before, both of those I think sought counsel from the parents because I don't think either of them wanted to leave, but the parents are like, well, this is a more well-known business, it's a higher base salary, benefits maybe here or there, but parents definitely had an influence. In fact, parents are the ones that put the opportunities in, in front of the face as well.

It's something to think about, isn't it? Because that is slightly different. Yeah, to UK, I feel like.

Yeah, definitely. And I've got— well, you've got to think, in the UK we grow up. I mean, we're acting like adults when we're 12 in the UK, you know. Here, I do think people stay under the parents' guidance until well into the 20s.

Yeah. So anything like— obviously, we, like, before we went into this boom period, we really managed to turn this office around because going into like, obviously 2019, 2022 is when we started to expand into other places, but like, what— anything else on reflection that you feel like you're able to really, uh, execute on that turned this office around that are things that you've carried with you today? Was it just the most important thing, just really getting the, the market approach right, working together as a team, making them feel like they're actually part of a wider business? Like, what were some of the standout things that you've really carried through with you that you feel like really were able— enabled you to turn that office around?

Yeah, now I think one, one thing I've always done quite well, um, is actually— I don't say buying loyalty, but having that galvanized group that are loyal to me. Um, that group in Houston definitely was for a period of time anyway. You know, some of them had their own ambitions and went off to do their own thing, but that, that's, that's one thing that got us through it. I suppose the negative to, to Houston in that situation was I kind of not really happy ever what I've got, so I'm always wanting more. And I think with Houston we were very profitable. I mean, we had 12, 14 people and we're making, you know, 700 grand, 800 grand a year, which is a good business, low cost. Like, even if we didn't grow beyond that, we're still a decent business function. But that's where I always want more. Like, I'm never really happy with what I've got. So I think in some ways I'd like to have been more like content in some ways, but then again, that's just not me. Yeah.

So the areas that we then looked at— so I've got here, let me know if I get any of this wrong. So this next sort of period then, we'll get into this real boom period because this is where then like a lot happened in the sense of like things then started to look very different in terms of the US part of Oscar. So obviously going into this period, so we still— our core markets here were still very much energy and tech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've got here, opened Austin November 2019, then we had Philadelphia in 2020, Tampa, San Diego. So there's a lot that sort of happened here. So why don't we first talk about locations? Because I think that there's probably some really good things here that we can learn from you. Like, what, like, was, was there any, like, real intentional strategic decisions around those locations? Was it you followed certain people that you had an opportunity to hire? Talk us through the locations for us. Austin, Philadelphia, Tampa, San Diego. Like, why did we end up in these places?

Yeah, a bit of a mix. So Austin was just easy for me to get to, so it's a 2-hour drive from my house. I could go a couple times a week if I needed. I could stay over, come back. It was, it was an easy office, what made sense. Plus with a tech boom, plus, um, positive migration, young professionals, it just made sense. And we'd already lost a couple of people from our Houston office who went out to Austin. So I think one of them who's back with us now, Lee, he went and joined GQR, who already had an office out in Austin. So we saw people making those moves, we're like, right, that's where we need to be. When I visited a couple of times, like, yeah, this is cool. Like, if I was in my early 20s I'd want to move here. So that, that was an easy one. Um, Philadelphia, which was the next office after that, I mean, we, we end up hiring probably 5 real key hires, probably June 2020.

So yeah, around the COVID period.

Yeah, June 2020. So I think when a lot of people actually tightened up and like reduced salaries, reduced commission, all that type of stuff, we actually was like, right, let's go and hire a few people. So we hired a girl from Spencer Ogden called Chandler renewable, wanted to move to Austin. Two guys, Kyle and Louis, who were based in Philly. Guy called Yayin, who's in our Austin office now. And those four hires were super, super key to us at that point because I don't think, especially with Kyle and Louis, we never would have been able to hire them if it wasn't for COVID. We've been reaching out, reaching out.

What makes you say that then?

Because the only reason they came back to us was because where they were working, FRG, cut the salaries and commission. Right? So he's like, right, happy to speak now. So we talked to him and they kind of had this fire in the belly, so we ended up bringing them on board and setting them a target to say, if you do X, Y, and Z, we'll open an office in Philly.

I think that's where they're from.

Yeah, that's where they're from. Yeah. So we said like, if you don't, then move down to Texas. I don't think they ever had any, any way of moving to Texas. I don't think they're ever going to do it, but they did what they said they were going to do. We held up our side of the bargain, we opened Philly. So that's how that was born. But, um, Tampa again. Asher, who's sat in this seat and done a podcast with you, that was his personal choice. So he's got family in Orlando. He was talking about wanting to move to Florida, been in Houston for 4 or 5 years or something like that at that point. And Miami, he didn't want to go, you know, he had a couple of kids at the time, cost of living a bit too expensive, didn't want to go Orlando, didn't want to— wanted to be near family but not on top of them. So we looked at Tampa and Tampa's what we jumped on. I think looking at Tampa now, if I could go back, and I think Ash would agree with this, I think we'd have gone to St. Petersburg and not actual downtown Tampa.

How come? Because I have no idea the difference.

So again, a lot of people in that demographic that we're hiring, they were driving over the bridge from St. Petersburg into downtown Tampa, right? So it's not that far, 25, 30 minutes across a bridge. But St. Pete's like a mini Austin. It's like a cool place. You're right on the coast, you've got loads of cool bars, restaurants, like really good vibe. So I think a lot of people move there, then they're actually coming into Tampa to work, where St. Pete's got a downtown, it's got offices, it's got industrious, it's got workspaces. So like, that's probably the change I would have made. And in San Diego, actually, I had— it was two guys that come together from the same business in the UK, both energy background, renewable. They wanted to move to San Diego, so open that for them.

It sounds like it was really led by, like, people.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah.

And like, so in terms of like just bringing it forward to now then, like, if me and you— if I have a recruitment business and I'm, I'm already doing a lot of business in the US. Yeah. And I'll put a business case together to my boss about opening up an office in the US. Like, how would you— I mean, you were to meet me up and I wanted to get your advice, like, what— how would you prioritize the most important thing in terms of location? Is it being a location where you're going to be able to fly and easily access a lot of the people that you do business with? Yeah. If my plans to grow it is actually at the top of the list, thinking about the young professionals migration and No, is it going to be a place where actually people actually moving their lives to? Like, how would you— there might be more on that list, but like, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on that. Like, because there's— this seems like this is really led by people. And then a lot of the things that you're talking about in terms of the challenges was we actually found ourselves in the location where hiring for our own business, we're just on extra hard mode because of where we end up being situated.

Yeah.

So what are the priorities when you— if now we're thinking about opening up a new US office like, what are the priorities? What do we— it might vary depending on the goals, but like, where does your mind go with that?

Yeah, so I think first and foremost it needs to be a city where there's competitors, okay, so we can hire from. There's, there's people in that market. And I suppose if you've got some of the bigger players there, they've already done the research to know there's people that are hireable, there's business there, you can get out and see, um, companies of interest, especially like your tech players. So that's Definitely the first thing. The second thing I would say, usually when you're sending people out to these offices, they're more experienced, they've maybe got family. We've always driven to like, yeah, you go where you want to go. Where I think it needs to be, where can we hire people? It's going to be convenient for other people to get to. So that's where I think Austin and Philly were easier to hire into because people were more downtown. The people that were running it in Keitel, he was— lived literally two doors from the office. So that made it a lot easier, could be in the office more. I think when you hire and you've got like an hour commute or 45-minute commute, you're coming in early, people trying to leave early, you've maybe got kids stuff, it's a little bit harder to make that work. But the other thing that I actually think, if we did this again— so our old CEO was very much, this is Oscar, we're just going to grow Oscar, everything's got to be under that umbrella— I just think we probably would have retained more people. And had almost like a portfolio of companies under Oscar, had we given the option, right, when you go here, you can have your own brand, this is going to be your own thing, it's maybe a different name. So I actually think that there's a lot of value in setting people up for their own businesses because that's what a lot of people aspire to, right? They want to have their own business, they want to have their own name on the top of it. And I think the current owners, Tom and Anna, that's something that they, they want to do. They've set loads of people up with their own businesses before. And I think had they been involved earlier, that maybe would have happened. So I think although Oscar might have been a similar size, we probably would have had 3, 4, 5 different businesses, maybe one, one-man bands, maybe 10, 20 people. You don't know how successful they could have been. But, um, I think that's definitely something I would look at because it's tough out there. You don't know what business are going to work out. You don't know what, um, the costs out of these offices as they grow and sign longer-term leases. If that is separate from the main brand, that might be a little bit easier to, to go through.

So it sounds like then what I definitely, definitely need to be mindful of is if I'm in an organization, I'm saying I really want to move my life to Chicago, let's say. Yeah, that, that isn't the lead indicator decision around that. It's actually, okay, let's look into Chicago and really make sure that that's a location and a place where like you said, young professionals are moving their lives there. It seems like that, that's really key. It seems like if anyone's thinking about that, really looking into that and making sure you've got enough evidence to say, actually, yeah, if we do go on this growth journey, this business, yeah, we're going to be able to grow our own talent, or that's going to— that should be easy to do because of the location it's in.

Yeah, exactly. Okay. And I think, I think there's also, um, like industry-specific. So if you're doing defence tech, for example, you probably want to be somewhere like Richmond, you know, Virginia, or Florida's got a big military presence, San Antonio. So you might want to go where that is, but definitely you need to be able to hire the people that are going to drive your business. Yeah. Okay, how—

so let's just get into this a bit more, that this, this boom period, because ended up getting to a lot of people. Yeah, yeah. Um, how did you think about making sure all these different officers— because it sounds like you, you gave people opportunities, great people opportunities, and you got behind them.

Yeah.

So like, how, on reflection, you said one of the things that you feel like is one of your superpowers that you do really well is building loyalty, building trust with people. How did we make sure that these groups of officers, groups of different teams, stayed aligned? Like, what did that look like? Because you was growing this? Because that must have been quite hard.

Yeah, I think it was very hard actually. And, um, I had a very tight leadership group at that period, um, really talented people, but they all had their own ideas, they all had their own ways of doing stuff. Because a lot of people in that leadership team were Oscar trained, but there was a lot that wasn't that were running offices. So like Kyle and Louis, like, those guys didn't follow the process. They would tell me they were, but they were doing their own thing, right? So then when I would go, it's like, why are you not doing this? Why are you not doing that? They'll do it for a couple of days, then it'd revert back to bad habits. But I think that they were all good people, like they were all good guys or good girls. There was an element of trust there. So if they were doing something wrong, typically like they'd come clean with that and they were like, right, we've got to do it this way, we've got to fix this, let's focus on these 3 things rather than those 10. So I think that was it, just the honesty, transparency of it.

And like with With what you know now, do you feel like you, you could avoid people saying, yeah, okay, I've understood, I know we need to get better at that, and then habits prevail, and then in 6 months' time they're not following what you deem to be the important things to follow? Like, do we— how could we have resolved that? Could we approach that differently? I don't know, because anyone listening to this that does grow their recruitment business, or, you know, grows in different locations, UK or the US, like, this is going to be something that they're going to have to try and get right, especially if they're growing it through bringing in great people that have their own ideas, that have their way of doing things. Like, do you feel like you could have approached that in any different way? I don't know. Or is it part— I'm not sure.

I think it's, I think it's tough. I think when you're hiring experienced people that have been trained elsewhere, whether it's simple difference in jargon, you know, semantics, whatever it might be, they, they'll do things differently. And it's, it's hard if they've never worked under the same roof and seen it work properly. Seen it be successful for them to take it on. So like Austin, for example, Austin worked really, really well because under Alice— Alice was Oscar trained, she was hands-on, she was very good at her job, she was, you know, leading from the front, billing a million herself. Everyone followed it. When we've got people like Karen and Louie in Philadelphia, they didn't see that. They just knew what they knew for the last 4 years. So when they say, 'No, no, I need to change,' that just means they're not gonna really. So either I would have had to go really, really hard on them from an accountability point of view, but I think that that would have probably impacted our relationship because I think everyone wants a bit of their autonomy, you know, and they want to be able to make their own decisions. But there were certain things that I definitely should have kept a closer lid on there.

Yeah, I mean, that, that is hard though, isn't it? How, how do we— so you've given us some examples of going in different locations, backing people, giving people an opportunity, getting behind them. Like, to get to this, I know that this, like, up to like 2022 period was like, it was, it was crazy. Yeah, the amount of money being put into the ecosystem, like everything. Like, how— I don't know if like can sort of take us back, but like, how was we thinking about growth? Like, was it strategic? Was it— because to end up with 100 heads, we're going to get into, you know, one of the lessons here around increasing your cost massively, because that's something that's come up a lot. But if we was in some of those leadership meetings or boardrooms, I don't know, was it like, we've got all these jobs, let's just get people in? What do you know I mean? What did growth look like here? Was it intentional? Was it just trying to keep up with demand?

It was definitely intentional. So like, I'm quite a visionary, and, um, I always think you need a vision as a business, like whether it's a 3-year or 5-year. Like, we always had a 3-year vision to work towards. And actually the only goal we always missed was headcount. So we actually wanted to grow more than what we ended up growing. I'm glad we didn't now, but it was, um, the offices we hit. So we wanted 6 offices, we got to 6 offices. We wanted, I think like we wanted to get to like 150 people across those offices, and we capped out about 98, just under 100. But I feel like maybe, maybe we've got a little bit complacent on the standards of hiring. It's like, all right, let's just, let's just give him a go. Like they've done it for a couple, I'm sure they'll be all right, let's see how they get on. And then we're keeping them too long, then the bar's coming down. But I think, yeah, it definitely was strategic in terms of the markets we wanted to be in, the offices we wanted to be in, um, and what we wanted to achieve from a revenue generation point of view, a contract book generation point of view, and profit. Like, that was all strategic, it was all mapped out. And 2017, 2018, 2019, hit it. '18, '19, '20, hit it. 19, 20, 21, hit it. 20, 21, 22, hit it. Then it was like, right, all of these costs, all these signed on the dotted lines from new offices, these big flashy spaces that we've got. Then overnight it was like, something's not right. You know, we're not bringing as much money now. The costs have increased. We're not making as much profit. And it was almost like thinking, this must just be a little blip, like it's going to come good. And it carried on and carried on, carried on. So that, that was where it was like, shit, like we didn't really plan for this. And that was where we had to really think, right, what do we do?

So like you said there, in terms of the growth, offices, targets, all of that was intentional. Yeah, markets. So what I'm hearing there was maybe what wasn't as intentional or strategic was the cost that we were then adding to the business by like headcount costs, which we'll get into, it seems like. Or maybe less— what's the word— not due diligence, but like maybe just a bit more rigor around like, okay, yeah, we're going to sign a 5-year office lease, cool, like we're in a good position, yeah, let's do that. Maybe there could have been a bit more rigor around actually let's just project that out a bit more, is that a good idea, can we negotiate a better break clause, I don't know, as an office example. But you mentioned there, because I do think this is something that comes with that, that growth journey, which I, I do think is really hard, which you said around like the, the standards.

Yeah.

And I think that that can be really common in recruitment. Like you said, I know we just— you just sort of said it a bit flippantly there, where it's like we've got someone in front of us, they've showed us that they build X, done it for a while, Asha knows them, they'll be sweet.

Yeah.

Could, like, how, how can we avoid that? Is that avoidable? Like, it seems like that's something that maybe actually wouldn't have sold everything or all of the challenges, but probably something that if you then looked around the room and things started to get hard and you're like, actually, you know what, most of the people in this room I actually backed to sort of turn things around, or I'd back them to make something happen. But if those standards slip, then you're probably gonna look around and that's not gonna be the case, and that's when you're gonna have even more issues. Any— because you're probably taking this into now, factoring into your growth now. Yeah. How do you protect standards? Is it just in the hiring process, being diligent, being really aligned on like, they have to have this, these are our values, they have to match up this, they have to show us that they've got a track record of that? Like, how are you protecting standards now?

Yeah, so I think starting off in the boom period, like, we were training people and we had, we had 2 trainees that did a million the first year. Like crazy figures. I think one build, 290 grand, like one, 10 months into the job, or maybe not even that, 9 months. So we're thinking, oh, training's great, everyone's amazing at the job. That same guy, fast forward a year, blank 6 months in a row, couldn't do a deal. Like he was creating some opportunities, but offers were getting declined. And it was almost like he had to go through retraining at that point. And because he'd done so, so well for us, like we didn't want to let him go. Then it got to that point where it's like, this just ain't going to work out. You're going to need a new change. So I set him up with a couple of interviews. He joined a different business, and so I actually helped him find his next job. He's actually got his own business now doing really well again, but he had to actually go and relearn the job, go through training, all that type of stuff 2 years into it. And I think that that's what we found. We actually maybe didn't spend enough time training people so they knew the job. We didn't keep on top of that because people were billing so well. We thought, oh, they know it. And experienced people, we wasn't really reference checking, we wasn't looking for proof of billings or anything like that. We're just like, yeah, let's hire them. I mean, there might have been a year's experience, had a year out, taking them on.

So, and what we're doing today to like— obviously there'll be some obvious things, but because I'm sure you have this in mind now.

Yeah, yeah. So, so now we, um, it's proof of billings we want to see, we want to get references on, on everyone. Especially experience. The trainees is a little bit tougher. It's actually just going more through behavioral, like, do they actually want to sell? Do sales— have they demonstrated that they've done sales before and want to keep doing it? Like, and what, what do they actually need? Like, can they actually live off the base? Do they actually need to earn commission? Um, what's the why? You know, why are they actually getting up every day for this?

I'm just being really diligent with that, non-negotiable with it, versus maybe just going, you know what, we like this person, let's give them a shot.

Yeah. And I, and I think the people that we hire, we try and figure out, are they a need person want person. So yeah, I'd say I always fell in the need category. You know, I had a young family, needed to make money. I had a son in America I had to get over and visit and fly, fly him over. I had to pay child support in the US. Like, I had an expensive life that I needed to earn commission. Like, my base would nowhere near cover that. Then we've got other people who I'd probably say— Mel, who you've had on here, and Alice— they were very much like a want. Like, they wanted to be perceived as the best. They wanted to be on a pedestal. They carried themselves really, really well. So I think they need to fall into one of those two back, um, categories. And then above all else, it needs to be ambitious and competitive. Like, I think everyone that we hire, like, hates losing. And if you don't hate losing, there's something wrong.

I think you've, you've been really honest there, and there'll be loads of different things, but I know so many companies went through that, that phase, um, And anyone that had a business at that point, like, as well, put in the mix, they're like, just the amount of demand there would have been. Yeah. And the amount of pipeline that probably would have been in the CRM, jobs on, all that, it would have looked crazy.

Well, we, we reacted really fast in COVID. I said we hired a few key people, but like, we were pulling jobs left and right in anything that was like health tech, anything that was video-based technology. Like, we were just getting everything. And, um, I mean, well, I think in our previous discussion, like, we're averaging like £75 grand per person including trainees. Like, it was crazy. Like, we were making a fortune and I thought, this is great. Like, what, what better career could you be in? Like, don't become doctors, kids. Like, get into recruitment. But, uh, yeah, it definitely took it, took a turn.

Yeah, because like you just said that it got to around, yeah, £40 to £46 million revenue, around 10% profit margin in terms of it being EBITDA, was the number that you gave me. So I think a lot of people would have felt like you did in terms of like, yeah, like we're in a really good position. So let's talk about this challenging period then. So to frame this up then, when did— because I know this is also an important part, because I know something that getting to know you, something that you have done really well which you shared with me, is that leadership team and growing that, building that trust, that loyalty. So talk to, talk to us a bit about some of the main lessons here in, in this challenging period, because there's a few other different bits that, that went on here. So was it this period where you started to be transparent and honest around what you wanted personally, career-wise, for the business and everything, or was it, or was it during that boom period that you started to have more of those conversations with the leadership team?

Yes, I, I think it's always been the case that we wanted to do a management buyout.

Okay.

You know, for, for me and the me, the, um, the old CEO and my counterpart Matt in the UK, we always wanted to buy it. I think certain points in that downturn, it came to like, right, I want to buy it. You know, the CEO exited, he wasn't here anymore. Matt was in the UK there, they had their own problems. And I think for me it was a case of, right, I wanna, I wanna buy it. And the leadership group was like, I want you to be part of this. Like, I want— my ideal is we're employee-owned. This core group is like running Oscar. But I think the downturn for me, I was thinking about this.

When did that really— because so basically what you're saying is maybe we went for drinks after work and you would be like, one day I really want to have the opportunity to maybe buy this business, or—

No, honestly, these were in like the sales conferences that we were—

Right. Oh wow. Okay. So it was literally really upfront, honest. Yeah.

Yeah. So a lot of these were actually to the whole sales staff, um, to say we wanted to like be employee-owned, we want to do management buyout. And we were exploring those options. But, um, I think that the downturn caused a lot of problems because the owners, Tom and Anna, they wanted a certain amount. When a downturn happens, the value is coming down, they're still thinking it's worth the X, we're thinking it's worth Y. So it was finding that sort of balance. We never, never could. But, um, when I was looking last night at the notes, going through all the notes for this, I was thinking the downturn for me was like— I think I said after our January conference, it's like just things just didn't start feeling right.

January 2023?

Yeah, I actually think it was probably a little bit before that, and I think I was like trying to fix a problem by hiring more. So if I look at when we was making the most money, we probably had more like 50, 55 people. When we got up to like the 90s, we were just hiring because we thought that we need more people. That's it, we just can't service it, we need more people to bring on more clients. Like, I think I was a little bit ignorant to actually know that's, that's not the problem. Like, the problem is externally here, the problem is internally in our process. We need to get better quality, we need to focus on our standards again and really do that. But I think we'll just end up getting trigger happy, like getting a wallet out, buying more people, you know. Yeah, so it was a strange situation, but I actually think it started before that conference. It just became very noticeable after it because I spent a fortune flying everyone into Florida. We've done these Oscar games, we've got all things going on. It was great. Like, if I could redo the day, it was like a wedding. It was brilliant.

But, um, and this is January 23rd, like, AGM?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It was such a good, good event. But straight after that, it was like, right, I think the February, we lost like £400 grand. I'm like, oh my God, that's not good. I've never lost money before.

Because what were some of the— because I know you've been on a real journey now, but like, what were some of your biggest costs? Headcount, headcount salaries aside.

Yeah.

What were then your biggest, biggest costs? Because I think this is a really important lesson for people when they do grow their business, just to be— just have some really good— using the word rigor around, like, just, yeah, just really thinking about the future worst-case scenario with these things. So what were some of your big costs? We hear LinkedIn a lot, offices. What did some of those big costs look like?

So I actually think a lot of the tools that we used we used to like share licenses, right? We got a little bit cute and creative with it at that point. I'll just get my license, everyone have a license, like do what you want, we'll get— we'll have that, we'll have this. A LinkedIn recruiter, like, so expensive. Um, obviously that was up there in terms of cost-wise, probably the highest away from office costs. Collectively will add up to more. Yeah. Um, I mean, we're on average probably most of us are roughly £15,000 to £20,000 a month. Austin's double that. But, um, LinkedIn Recruiter, God, we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on.

Did you sign up to like a big multi-year deal? Do you remember?

I think so.

I remember signing something like that.

Yeah, we ended up signing like 3-year deals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and you know, like when you then come down from 100 people to 60 people, you're eating that cost of the licenses as well, which is crazy. Yeah, but you don't really have an option, you know. If I go take away Recruiter from everyone, all my staff are like, we do, we need it. Which I actually don't think you do. I actually think there's a lot of ways to do recruitment without LinkedIn Recruiting, especially as AI comes out with more, more tools and solutions as well.

So I've got here— let me know if I got this wrong— I've got here costs 1.2 million a month.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do you know, actually probably was. I bet it did get also about 1.2 million. Yeah, for, for all the salaries, all the benefits, all the tools, all the other stuff. But it was Yeah, yeah, yeah. I bet if I— I bet if I go to Feb, March 2023, I bet that's how much it was.

It's a lot in that.

Crazy. Yeah.

So yeah, bar salaries. Yeah, office. So any, any, like, what would be like the message there then? Just like be really intentional with the multi-year stuff that you sign? I don't know, like, what, what is the real message there for people? See you know, increasing cost comes with the growth and growth journey, right? But like, what would your message be to any other recruitment leader going on that journey to be mindful of if— yeah, like in case you do have a really bad turn, which you hope people don't, but it's part of the journey sometimes.

So I think office space-wise, there's definitely better options than what we went down. So we kind of thought, well, let's, let's get our own space, we can spend 10 months constructing it they'll pay for the construction, they'll make it look great. We'll just have to sign a 6-year lease rather than a 3-year lease. What I would say is there's lots of spec offices already out there that are open plan, sales floor, nice kitchen break area, like cool spaces. And that's what we've got in San Diego. San Diego's our cheapest office by a long, long stretch. I think we're paying 10 grand a month, all furniture included. There's only a 20-person space, but it's a 1-year deal. So when we go to close down San Diego, we only had a few months left on the lease. So that was an easy decision. I think when we've got offices where we've got a 6-year lease, like such a commitment, and then you've got to go through, right, do we continue investing in this? Because it's not just hiring one person, you've got to invest millions of dollars. You're thinking long-term commitment. And that's why we closed San Diego because I thought I don't want to go commit to another 2 years now. Which they wanted, I thought, let's just, let's just call this a day.

But, um, why did it end up being like— is Austin 6 years?

Austin is— yeah, we've probably got 5 years left on the lease in Austin.

But what was 6 years what they brought to the table or said, like, to get this office, it's 6 years?

Or— yes. So the difference out here is when you go and actually build an office, they have— they pay the build-out costs, right? So I think for our UK office in Manchester I think that cost us probably a couple hundred grand when we opened it because we paid for the construction. We paid all that on the front end. Here, the building management, they pay it.

What, and they factor it into your monthly costs?

Yeah. So then they'll factor it in, but then they spread out the lease.

Right.

So if you go into something that doesn't need any work doing, if you are just moving as is, you'll get a much shorter lease term and preferential rate.

Right.

Well, the rates don't actually change as much because they like to keep a minimum rate. But the term will change drastically, right? So that's where, that's where we made some big mistakes, I think, was, yeah, let's just have it. We'll get Oscar on the wall, we can have these rooms, we can have that kitchen, we can do X, Y, and Z, knock down those offices. Um, yeah, so that, that was definitely a big—

that's, that's like a real anchor then, isn't it, in terms of that location? Well, yeah, you've got to really then decide if you can't continue investing in it, as you said.

And when we signed on the dotted lines of those, like, everything was rosy. You know, that all the offices that we're in were at capacity. We're like, well, everyone's got ambition, they all want to grow their own offices, the teams, whatever it might be. So we didn't have any other option at that point than to move to something bigger. But we didn't have to go for something 3 times bigger or twice the size, right? We could have done it, we could have been a little bit more cautious. But you know what we know now, we didn't know then. And the construction period, in that 10-12 month period that we're waiting for construction to move in, I think even halfway through that we probably would have changed our mind if we could, but we couldn't get out of it. Yeah. And then I think from the tools point of view, yeah, I mean, like, we're going through something with LinkedIn right now, and we just went down to the bare bones last year because we knew people that were paying less with 2 people than what we were paying with 60, 70 licenses at that point because we wasn't classed as an enterprise client because we didn't grow.

Wait, say that again.

So to be an enterprise client, you need to do year-on-year growth. So because we weren't looking to add any licenses, they wouldn't give us the enterprise pricing. Like, oh, you're gonna have to go back on this pricing. But we knew people had gone from zero licenses to two licenses, had a better deal than us. I'm like, that's crazy. So we just said, look, rip it up, we'll go to bare minimum, we're not having any extra charge, what you want, right? So now when we get to November for renewal, hopefully we get a really good price.

We'll see. Yeah, we will.

I'll let you know.

So, and I got here and look, this is part of it, but there, there's going to be vanity elements in there, isn't there? Yeah, the office, like you said, getting it kitted out. I've been to your office in Austin, it, it's unreal, it looks great. But again, it, it is one of those things where actually it massively increase our cost, is something we've got to be mindful of.

Yeah.

Um, so when When do you feel like then we really started to have these conversations with the leadership team around you wanting to really try and get to the point where you agreed something to buy Oscar or have become a majority shareholder, management buyout? Because I know that that's like an important lesson here as well, so I think we need to talk about it. So was it around this, this downturn period? Like, when did that coincide with it in terms of being really transparent and upfront? I know you said that it was something he was communicating to the organization as a whole, but in terms of those leadership meetings and saying, I want you to be part of it, this is what I'm doing, I'll let you talk, talk through it. But like, when was you having a lot more of those conversations?

Yeah, I'd say it was probably like summer 2023.

Okay.

Yeah, so the, the CEO exited that summer, like it was ongoing from April through July. Yeah. So he ended up having to leave, and everyone obviously knew, knew the reasons and all, all kind of knew what was going on. But I had to speak to that group and be like, right, well, look, we've got to move forward the right way. This is what we want to do, this is who we want to be, and that's why the decisions have been made. But I think the UK had their own struggles, and then going through a Pedro, I'm like, we were still doing all right, and I backed my group, and we had a really tight group, and I thought we want to have this as ours. Like, if we make this ours, like, that's— we can— that's going to galvanize a group. It's going to be longevity, um, it's good. It's going to be years and years of, like, Oscar moving the right way in, in the US. I think when I've gone through some of that period of time and I've kind of been a little bit too honest with people, if we go through that year where we've had conversations, we had leadership meetings, those conversations have gone from we're going to try and buy this, to I don't think I can buy this, to I might look for an exit. And, and it came full circle. And I think because I'm having these conversations with leadership team, I'm like, you know, I don't know what this situation is going to be. I always tell them, I'm like, look, my decisions are very important because they're going to affect you and your nearest and dearest. You know, some of them had their kids on the way, some of them were trying to buy houses. Wherever it might have been. And then they probably told stuff to their people, right? Because they were all good people, and they maybe told their nearest and dearest that were in their offices. But for me, I thought, I've got to do the right thing. I need to keep them in the loop. Probably looking back, probably shared too much. I think if I just kept a little bit more tight-lipped, maybe a couple of those people would still be here. Um, but it was a learning curve for me, you know. And it came down— I think I told you the summer 2024, I mean, I've gone back to the UK, I've met with whoever we needed to meet with, and it's all been like really amicable conversations. There's never any point where things got like angry between me and the other owners or anything. It was like all pretty honest with them too. And I signed on the dotted line to move back to Austin last summer at the airport in Manchester, my last day in England. Like, it was a crazy situation. But by the time I've done that, like, if you'd have asked me 2 weeks before, I was like, there's no way I'm coming back. Like, that's, that's how close it came to me exiting there.

So what did we— we, like, with what you can share, what were the main— because I do think I appreciate you being really honest about this because there'll be some really important lessons in here for other people that end up in a position like you do, where you work really hard to get to where you got to, become a director, leader, and that is one of your um, big goals where you've had a big part in the business journey, and what is really motivating you is at one point actually owning part of this business and, and taking it to the next chapter and driving that. Yeah. What, what is it that you, that you learned in those conversations when you tried to negotiate that that would probably be worth sharing? Because, because that is a different skill set, isn't it? You know, we're not we're not managing billing managers and driving different things. We're talking about equity, we're talking about this is why the business is worth this, and do you know what I mean? It is, it is a different, different knowledge you've got to pull on there. So like, what is it that you learned there? That— because that is— that also would have been the learning curve for you as well, having those conversations and maybe thinking parts of the business are more valuable than they actually are, and how it's figured out as to like, no, we think it's worth this, so you're going to have to come up with a number like this if we're gonna get anywhere near agreeing to what you want us to agree to. That's a big learning curve.

Yeah. And you know what, actually, for Tom and Anna, obviously they're majority shareholders. I actually felt really sorry for them because they got pushed into this situation to get back involved a little bit with Oskar because of the whole stuff that happened with the CEO. And they were almost semi-retired. They've almost cashed in. They're like, one of them doing France. They don't want to be doing this. It's a difficult time. They don't want to be involved. But I think from buying the business, they've obviously got valuation on it. I don't think it really mattered like where they saw that value. I think they looked at the contracts book. Well, this is worth this because of the contracts book. You've got these people billing XYZ. That's why it's worth this. I think that their counter to me when it comes to the point, well, if you can't buy it, buy me out, was we don't know what it's worth if you're not here because we've not got any relationships with any of the people you're talking about. Or any of the people that are out in the US. So they're like, if you're not there, what we're left with. So I could understand why we couldn't come to an agreement there as well. And I think for me, like, Tom and Anna have been great since we've kind of become more partners because they are very old school with like how they think. And I think I, deep down, I am as well. But they, um, they had— they've made me think like a businessman now. You know, that, that's it. I think I must have been one of the only people that was, um, bonused off top-line revenue. So in the heyday, it was great, but I think it comes down to a point where we're losing money and I'm still getting paid a big bonus at the end of the month. So I could definitely understand the points. Um, so now I get paid off a percentage of the P&L, which is obviously how it should be. So I'm more conscious of that. But from a value point of view, yeah, it was, it was tough going through those conversations. Um, but we've got to a really good space now.

So tell us a bit about that then, because like, that, that's important. You went through the, the, this hard part trying to negotiate these types of things, and then where have we— don't need to know the absolute particulars, but like you said, now, now we've got a partnership in place where all the incentives match up with you. Yeah. Taking this next chapter and keep making, uh, taking the chapter to the next place of the business.

Well, I think the good thing is I always know like there's an option for me to buy it if we can get to a certain valuation. I know that I've kind of got first refusal and I've got a bigger share in that US sale. So like for me, I'm in a better position now than what I was 2 years ago when I was thinking about buying it, um, as a collective potentially. So that, that's definitely, definitely good. I think for me moving out here, um, there's also a few things that happened where stuff could have been differently. So I think where Tom and Anna have like kind of really earned my respect is certain decisions they've made. Like, we've never really been that close, you know. When, when the CEO was here, he was like a bridge or a barrier between the owners and me. Now we speak more, like we're aligned more. Um, and they've done stuff like— a real simple one is when I moved from Tampa to Austin, I think my shipping cost was meant to be $12 grand, which probably seems about right. I probably thought maybe it's a little bit cheap. You know, I've got a bad big house to move all that stuff. But when they turned up, they were 22. So that's a big, big difference. And, um, I'm pissed off. And Tom and Anna have just been like, look, just don't worry about it, we got it. So like, that could have been really on, on my back to cover. And I kind of like some of the decisions that they've made. And I've seen how they've reacted and dealt with some other people, which I've like, you know what, you've made some really good decisions there. So I think it bought a lot of, um, loyalty from me.

And what— just final thing on this end, because, you know, you was honest with me in terms of like going through that challenging period, and you, you know, being honest with me in terms of, you know what, actually probably a bit of a leadership lesson where I clearly— for you it's important to be transparent and honest. And like you said, like, I, I totally get it if you've got this, this, this room of leaders and you're like, look, I know we're going for a tough period right now and the light at the end of the tunnel is like, I'm gonna do everything I can to give us an opportunity to like, yeah, buy this business. Like, that, that makes complete sense. Yeah. But like, just what, what's, what's the sort of main takeaway lesson there? Because I know then maybe when those things didn't happen and everything else, that then had a knock-on effect on these people maybe, maybe not trusting your word as much, or I don't know, like these people then decide actually time for a new chapter, I'm going to leave the business. Like, is it be transparent but maybe just be a bit more cuter with what you do share, not share? Do you know what I mean? Like, what is it that— because I'm, I'm probably— I have a small business myself. I'm, I'm definitely lean towards being transparent, but I guess in that type of situation that he was in, maybe it's a bit more like, okay, let's— yes, transparency, but maybe don't need to share that part. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? What's the sort of takeaway there for other people?

I think looking back, like, I definitely said way too much. Like, like, literally to the fact of I'm off.

Like, you literally said that to them?

Pretty, pretty much. I mean, it's like, yeah, when I come back, like, I'm not going to be with Oscar. Like, that's how close it came, and that's how much I shared. I think now I've definitely learned from that. Um, there was no need for me to go that, that far with what I said.

Was that— was it an emotional time?

No, because these weren't— this wasn't in a bar or anything, but yeah, they're definitely emotional. Like, um, you know, I'm trying to think about my wife and kids and what's best for us long term. You know, my wife's talking about, I don't know if I want to be in the US anymore, kind of want to go home. Like, now she doesn't want to be at home. Like, she is— it's, uh, I don't think she'd, um, I don't think you could pay her to move home right now. But for me, it was, it was definitely an emotional time. But like, these were in our like boardroom meetings that we're having these conversations. So it was almost like, it was almost a bit like an us against them type of thing. We're all in it together. And, um, yeah, definitely, definitely made some mistakes with, with how much I shared. Um, maybe part of me was thinking, you know, well, maybe I'll still end up buying it, maybe that's what it'll figure out at the end. But, um, yeah, I think now rebuilding the leadership team, I've still got the core leadership team that's still there. Not everyone ended up going and doing their own thing, so I've still got a few people from that leadership group. But again, they obviously know a lot, so I'm very honest with those still. Because we just know each other. Like, one's like one of my best mates in the US, in Asher. Um, I've got Jay in here and Lee here that have been with us through it all. The newer people are in the leadership group, yeah, we— I'm kind of a little bit more coy with what I'm saying.

Um, no, I do really appreciate it's been transparent with that because that clearly obviously would have been a big lesson. And it's like, you can still be transparent, but I guess this is just you you know, you're continuing to learn yourself and grow yourself as a leader. So it's just, you're going to have those moments moving forward where actually you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get my message across still and it's going to be transparent, but I don't quite need to say it like that.

Yeah.

And I guess maybe in the future there's gonna be periods where maybe it's like, actually, yeah, I don't know if he was really emotional in those moments to be like, yeah, if this doesn't happen, I'm off. I don't know, but it's just, it is a learning experience, isn't it, going through all these types of things? It would have been a hard period.

Yeah, it was a difficult time, you know. Business isn't going well. But then the other side of me is like, I don't ever want to— I think deep down I didn't really want to leave because Oscar's my baby. And it's like, if I ever thought I'd leave or be bought out, it'd be when we're doing great, you know. I mean, you're getting a big windfall of cash coming in and everyone's riding off into the sunset. Like, I didn't actually see it ending with, oh look, it's all gone to shit type thing.

So I've then got here, you know, over the last financial year, we're back in the, we're back in the green.

We are, yeah.

So, so should we talk about this reset and rebuild? So like, where— so the beginning of— obviously it's August, September, your financial year. So just talk to us a bit about some of the— you know, we've spoken about some of these difficult periods, but then we've made some decisions, right, in terms of like offices.

Yeah.

Stuff like that. I've got here like cost heart, like we've really, um, taken some action on reducing our costs. Yeah, obviously there's circa 40 people currently, but just talk to us a bit about this reset and rebuild period. You signed that contract. Yeah, it's game time. It's like, right, let's crack on, let's, yeah, let's make this good. What was the— what were the main intentions? What were the main things that we then had to, to get going with?

Yeah, so I think the good thing is like when I've come to Austin, I'm like, there's a lot of things we can improve on. And if I'd have turned up and it was doing great and performance wasn't there, I'd be like, what am I going to do? But there was, there was, it was like from a quality point of view, there's loads of things that we could do. From an output point of view, there's a lot of things that we could do. I mean, maybe people didn't like it when I first turned up because they knew they were getting watched and had to action certain things. Um, but like just simple basics, you know, picking up a phone, making some calls, you know what I mean? Call first, um, doing reference checks, your basics, and getting leads, getting, um, references, but actually following them up as well. Like, it was just getting the group back to basics, making sure we're actually actioning, um, calling candidates and clients. Like, it was really, really basic stuff, nothing revolutionary.

What did this group look like then? Because obviously you moved your life then to Austin, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, at like, yeah, nearly like what, a year, a year or so?

Yeah, just about a year ago. Yeah.

What did this group look like then in terms of the Austin office?

Yeah, so we had a mixed group. There wasn't many trainees in there, so it was more experienced people. But again, there was a lot of people that just were not performing. I mean, they're doing a deal a quarter or something like that, and it was, right, we've got to have a standard and we've got to keep it. So it was more like performance management, right? You've got to move on. I know, again, it wasn't like an instant, right, you're gone. It was through the performance management. It was, this is what we need to see, um, jobs in, um, terms and all that type of stuff. So it was just managing that. And I think some people then pulled the finger out, made it happen. Some people, um, were already performing decently well. We had a couple of new hires that come in that kind of came straight into that environment, and then they took off. But, um, yeah, for us now it was just leaning out, focusing on, on costs, but driving performance just through doing the basics and actually pushing activity.

And then what does— I've got it here. So obviously now Austin's very much the HQ.

Yeah.

And then how have we approached other parts of this US team? So you've got obviously Asher, we've got like a satellite office, haven't we? Like, what— just give us a bit of an understanding there. But obviously we've got this HQ in Austin now, haven't we? Yeah. And then what, what does the rest of it look like? So I've got Philly, Tampa satellite offices, is that right?

Yeah, so Ash is like a 180 salesperson, right? And he's got a delivery team underneath him that are all based out in Tampa, um, which I, I do, I do think that that model is something that we'll gear more towards long term. I think there would definitely be more sales-focused people and 180 delivery behind them. So we've already got kind of centralized delivery in each of our functions now, but, um, Philadelphia, again, small office focused on ServiceNow and Workday.

So that's very much the setup around that bar, and then we're really driving Austin. Okay. Yeah. So what— so really, has that— I mean, I know you said like, it sounds like basic stuff, but again, it's these types of things that, you know, standards can go amiss when, you know, things are really going well or we're in a challenging period. So really you found yourself over the last year or so just really in a sales director role, just really driving performance that way, doing one-on-ones, got a pipeline hygiene, helping, you know, people in terms of winning clients, what their client strategy is like. So is it all of that stuff that you've been really cracking on with over the last 12 months?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think just like also like the quality control, right? It was actually amazing how poor some like qualification calls are on candidates. Specs, not even wrote on a Post-it note. I'm like, what's that all about? I mean, so there's just some real bad habits where it's just like managing that quality. And it's amazing how much more information you get when you're just doing that, or you're making some calling back.

And like, how are you— like, how are you really now thinking about growing this Oscar US? Like, how are you now thinking about that? Is it— I know I asked you earlier, but like, how do you see that? What is it that you're doubling down on? Like, what you know, I'm sure you want to keep seeing year-on-year growth. Like, what are the, the main pillars or the main things that you're already doubling down on in this, you know, this new financial year that you feel like is going to keep getting you in the right direction?

Yeah, so I think that definitely we're going to have more delivery-focused people. Okay. Um, it's something that we've not really done historically, but we've got lots of clients, we've got, um, lots of business which a delivery function could support, but it's not necessarily something I would want 360 consultants working. Um, from a market point of view, definitely more in contract. I think contract's going to be king over these next few years. Um, direct hire, obviously we're still going to do, but right now where it's probably 60/40 direct hire, I want that to be more like 80/20 long term.

Really? Yeah. Okay. What, what's, what's making you— you mentioned it— what, what's making you draw towards this like delivery piece, like key accounts type sort of model? Yeah, because of the personnel that you've got in the office and you've got some great people that can go out client, um, you know, client-facing, and you want them, you know, really want to— like, why, what's making you draw towards that? Because historically you've always been like 360.

Yeah, there's a, there's a mix, I suppose. Like, from a 360 point of view, I want people really heavily involved in the niche that they do. That should be the foot in the door. But when they're pulling potentially 10 other jobs that are not in their niche, it's then who fills it. Right, so there might be 2 of the 360 consultants that could fill a job each, but then we're probably still left with 4 or 5 jobs that we're leaving on the table. You know, sometimes that's a new client, sometimes it's a buying client. We want to figure out a way to actually fill it. But, um, that's where a delivery function comes in. If we've got someone that can just pick up— I don't say the scraps— what, pick up the jobs that no one else can work because it's not worth their time.

Yeah, I mean, when I've sat down with some people, they've— that's ended up happening where like they've ended up pulling opportunities that might fall out of their sort of wheelhouse, and then that's happened that amount of times where they've ended up just building like a key accounts team.

Yeah, I know. I always tell people, like, from a 360 point of view, in an ideal world, everyone that we hire 360 turns into a salesperson that's solely client, um, client development or client solutions, whatever you want to call it. They may be still on their little niche that they've got But like we always say, there's 3 things you've got to— you can work harder, but again, you get to a point where you've maybe worked hard enough, or you, you, your life's changed, you've got kids or something. Second part is you can get better at your job. Again, the more experience you have, that's harder. So the third point is scale. So how can we help people scale their desk? And that comes from a delivery point of view, or they're bringing in trainees that can help deliver for a period and then grow the team and work those other markets and do splits. When they pull jobs in those areas.

And then besides the things that we've spoken about in terms of productivity per head really driving now, we're talking about these things here. With everything that you've learned, how are you, how are you thinking about making the, the right bets almost like financially and projecting the right way? Because I feel like that's something to be really mindful now of everything. You don't want to— me and you sit down in 12 months' time and it's like, shit, yeah, our costs are really high and this has happened. Yeah, I can imagine you're going to be a lot more even more intentional with when we look to hire, when we look to add more people. Is there anything there that you can share? Because I do think— I've sat down with a few people and I do think that has been a big lesson for people, where like you've been really honest with us and said, you know what, let's give them a go, let's hire them. I think if anyone wants to grow in today's economic environment, you've— it can't just be that. I mean, you're gonna just open up yourself to be vulnerable in the future in terms of financially and how the business looks. So how, like What does that look like now in terms of really growing with that in mind?

Yeah, I think from a cost point of view, definitely making sure any tools we commit to are short-term, um, trials, all that type of stuff. And to be fair, like, a lot of suppliers we work with right now, apart from LinkedIn, have actually been really good. Um, you know, Sourcewell, I think, sponsoring your podcast on Thursday, right? Yeah, they've been great, German, to work with. And I think that's something that we'll push on more because I think if someone can't give us what we want. There's now competitors out there that can. I said the only one that's a bit of a monopoly is LinkedIn, really. So that's one. The other side, from a hiring point of view, like, we won't really hire from mid-October through mid-January. Like, that'll be a period where we just don't hire. We'll make offers and we'll bring people on, but they won't start until January, probably mid to late Jan. Um, mainly for the fact of loads of people are out. You've got Christmas, you've got Thanksgiving out here. It's a very hard period, I think, for people to actually start a desk. Um, I'd rather just wait 6 weeks and start then. Like, yeah, that I think. And then when you get getting off to a slow start, they don't have the momentum going in the new year. You're then putting a bit of pressure on them. So yeah, I think we just want, we just want hiring up here.

Yes, that gives you a real solid— you've got a real solid timeline there as well. It's like looking at everyone in, in the office and being like, right, yeah. How can we get everyone 10, 15, 20% more better?

Exactly. I think that really worked really well for us last year. So between when I came in August, September, October, November, December, we didn't bring many people in. It was literally just, right, who've we got, who can we work with, standards, process, move forward the right way, activity focused, like let's set the bar high. So that works really, really well. Then I think from January onwards really good. May, June, July had a little bit of a struggle, um, but again, just constantly realigning. I think that's it, you've got to constantly realign. And, you know, sometimes I think the difficult thing that I've always had is you've got, you've got to manage performance, right? And then I'll have my leadership team, the people are in their teams, I'm saying, why is this person still here? They're trying to fight the corner a little bit. And it comes to a point where it's just like, enough's enough. Like, we've got to make that decision. Like, we— and I think half the time the people, when they actually leave, they're kind of glad. It's like, oh God, I just didn't want to let you down. Do you know what I mean? I think they think the same way. I didn't want to leave and let you down.

But, and how are we thinking? Like, have you got any— like, are you thinking about growing the office presence in the US? You're not really thinking about that in this, this financial year? You're like, you know what, let's just really again focus on Austin HQ, get that as good as it can, because everything that you've learned— are you thinking about other offices or not really?

Not other offices. I think we're, we're going to invest heavily in Austin. Um, Philly will probably remain a small satellite office for now, and Tampa we're going to invest in. So, um, yeah, we've got quite a few people speaking to at the moment, but they'll be January starters for—

for what? What's— how come? How come Tampa?

Um, again, we've just— we're speaking to the right people there that either want to move to Florida. I think there's more people, especially in the UK, that would want to move to Florida over Pennsylvania. Although I love Philly because it reminds me of home, but, um, and I love the people there too. But most people see themselves moving to the US being on a— in warm weather and a nice beach. Philly, unfortunately, has— I don't know if you call them beaches, but it's got the— it's got the sea there. Okay. Um, but it's— the winters are cold. But yeah, Tampa's a cool, cool spot.

And like, so what would you like for anyone— for anyone listening that is looking to get boots on the ground, um, in Austin? Because it is, you know, a lot of the people that I'm sitting down with are all English people that have then moved over here. Like, if I dropped you a DM now, like, what, what would be your take on coming to Austin? Do you think like it's got really competitive, it's maybe not as appealing? Uh, obviously it is a great location in terms of, um, young professionals, people moving here. It seems like that's still very much a thing. Like, what, what's your, like, you know, you've lived in a lot of places and you've worked in different places, so what's your current take on that?

I mean, what I would say is the US is a great place, like, from a market point of view. Like, anyone that wants to come over, even if it's just for a couple of years, you can earn such good money in that time period to set you up to do what you want after that. So whether you're in Austin, Tampa, Miami, New York, like, there's so many cities where you can make money. I don't think it needs to be down to one, right? But my biggest advice for anyone coming out, and I think most of the companies that actually are seeing success are coming out with homegrown people, right? They've worked in the UK office, they've got 4 or 5 years, they're like are very loyal to the ownership back in the UK. They've maybe got a small amount of shares to come out here and set up. Like, that's the right way to do it. I think if I look back at the mistakes we made before I came, the two— my two predecessors here in Houston and the two predecessors in, uh, Singapore all were unknown quantities. They're all big-salaried executive recruitment leaders that came from— maybe, maybe they came from businesses where Oscar wanted to be. You know, big oil and gas recruitment company. They've already been there, they can turn us into it. But they just don't— when things get tough, that's when you need someone that's been with that business and they know the ownership well and they're going to run through brick walls for them. Because when things are going easy, it's easy, right? Deals are going on board, everyone's happy. It's when things are going tough, you have that bad quarter or bad month or a bad year, like, it's getting through that period. And that goes both ways. I also think then ownership cast an eye on, they'll look, I'm paying that guy a lot, what's he doing? So I think that they actually— maybe goes both ways then. Yeah.

Well, look, Kevin, honestly, like, really, I mean, what a journey. Obviously it's still continuing, probably feel like it's just, you're just getting started.

I do, sure. I'm really looking forward to like the next, the next 3 to 5 years. Um, I want to keep growing as a business, I want to keep evolving. I think I've evolved a lot. I'm definitely a better-run business now. Than what we were a couple of years ago. So, um, been a learning curve, but I'm really excited for what the future brings. Yeah, yeah.

And I think I just really appreciate you coming on here, being super transparent. Yeah, talking about the things no doubt in certain moments would have been really tough, would have been really difficult. Yeah, but you're, you're here to talk about what you've learned, what you're taking into the future, and like, I think people can only respect that really. Um, so yeah, I think like super grateful for you to sit down with us and talk about these things, and I know it's going to help a lot of people, so I really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Bosh, mate, that's a wrap.