From Burnout to £1M: The "Back to Basics" Agency Blueprint with Jack Cole

Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to quickly shine the light on the 3 partners who are behind the mission of the podcast this year. First up, we have Atlas. This isn't just another CRM with AI added on as an afterthought. Atlas 2.0 is the first platform in our space built with AI from the ground up and at its core. Next up, we have our longtime partner Sourcewell. You may know them as a world-class outbound sequencing tool, but they fully evolved into a multi-modular system. And the best part is you can plug and play their tools, from the AI note-taker to the inbox agent, all without ripping out your entire tech stack. And finally, Raise. They remain the most powerful way to fund and run your contract book if you want to unlock cash flow and scale your agency with total confidence, you have to check them out. So if you go to the link in the description below, you're going to be able to get access to exclusive offers to all 3 of our partners this year. Let's get into this week's episode. Jack, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, mate.

As we were just saying, uh, I last sat down with you to do this when you was in business with Tom Hurley. I was in Bristol. Yeah, with my backpack, with tripods, my phone, and we had a conversation about being on this entrepreneurial journey with Method. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the Bristol football ground, was it?

No, no, it was in the Sanderson office.

Yeah, that was it. Yeah, so we just did it in a meeting room there.

Yeah, yeah.

And now this is where we are today. Studio, different chapter that you're on. So we're here really to— our goal here is to talk about— you've been on— you were on two chapters here. One, as I was just mentioning, you went on like a four-year journey being part, you know, co-founding a business as a business partner at Method, then started a new chapter with Wedo and, uh, started— I went into business with a different business partner. So we're gonna really talk about these last three and a bit years because I think you and Ryan started the recruitment business in a really interesting time, which we're going to get into. So starting the business, a lot of good things happening, making money, then making some decisions when we had that money that we've then learned actually, is that what we wanted? Probably should have done things a bit differently. And then we're really clear now on what we want the business to be and where we're going. So we're going to try and give a real honest take and view on that experience, because I think there's plenty that people can learn from it. So what was we like— so what was we— what was you really taking into this, this next chapter then we did? What was really important to you from that whole experience? Like, if we're to, to start there, what were some of the really important things that you want to take into this next chapter, going into business with Ryan? What was really important from your side going through that part of that journey as a business owner?

I wanted to build something that had my, my brand, my identity, like, on it, and that something was gonna maybe outlive me. Um, something that give to the guys that were going to come into the business and create something that was like long-term, like, wealth, like, for them as well. Um, so that's kind of like what was coming into it. So, like, our original plan plan was to create WeDoTech, which is pretty much like what you get is on the tin is like we do technology recruitment. And then underneath that, we would have then umbrella brands of WeDoQA, WeDoDev, WeDoData, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think at the time, like the market, particularly for recruiters in the local Bristol scene is like everyone knows everyone. It was a time where the market was like really ripe and recruiters were like pretty much dictating to agency owners at the time around Like, if you want to hire me, it's on these terms and conditions. So we thought, well, actually, if we build a model where we had a subdivision of WeDoDev, for example, and you could become the managing director of WeDoDev, and you'd have equity in it, and you would have a sharehold in that particular business, then we would have an attractive proposition to get really good recruiters and then scale it in that way.

That was the plan.

In theory.

That was the plan. This was 2022, wasn't it?

Yeah. In theory, that was the plan. We were fucking awful at executing on that plan. But it sounded nice when we come out of it, right? But we were then a victim to the shift in the market conditions at the time. So the plan, like if the market didn't shift, then the plan might have worked out. But it didn't.

So. So important context then. This was now a business. So went into business with Ryan. Yeah. Obviously you both, uh, self-funded that business, right?

Yeah.

Um, I don't know if this was, I've got it self-funded, circa 150K. That was between you, right?

Uh, yeah.

So people had no idea.

So it was 100K, um, uh, an initial, like, investment, but probably with money that was generated, we probably spent about 150 in the first, like, 12 months.

Yeah.

Um, so Ryan put most of the capital down. So Ryan had done, um, he'd done bedroom recruitment with, uh, like a, a company called TeamShip, um, uh, and he was trying to figure out what he was going to do next, um, and we essentially used that equity to essentially then co-found Wedo off the back of it, um. So we just, um, he was new back to, to like the Bristol area. We went and like played golf and we just started chatting around like uh, his challenges, his frustrations, morally what he wants to do. And we just started to realize that actually there was an alignment there. Um, I was, I was frustrated.

Yep.

Um, so we decided to essentially do something together.

I appreciate you sharing that. So should we, final bit of context and then we'll get into like how this played out. So I got here, just getting it up here. So 20, so 2020, so started the So launched in like 2022, right? Um, so first year and a bit. Yeah, so we started June 2022. So from around that period to December 2023, we're sort of deeming as like the first year. Did around circa like 600K revenue.

Yeah, right.

Um, we'll go into this because, yeah, hired 6 people. Like first 6 months you brought in 500K, that's it, balling out. I think I've got here office could fit 32 people. See, we didn't have an office that could fit 32 people, right? Okay, so got, got, so there's that context. And then after that, so then 2023, yeah, no, yeah, sorry. So it was around that. And then 2024, 890, around 891K, 8% pump, 4 heads. 2025, on track to do just over a million, 70% perm, rest contracted, and then around 7 heads. That's right, yeah, pretty much.

Yeah.

Okay, okay. I always want to make sure I get those things right. So why don't you talk us through, because I know there'll be a lot of people listening, either they might have been employed and they've started their recruitment career around this stage, you guys started another business Talk me through, like, if I was in yours and Ryan's, like, meetings around these first 6 months, 500K, what was the chat like? We're at, like, this is absolutely on track, we're having a really good time, let's really grow this. Like, what would we have heard in those early days? Because it went really well.

So when we first set up, it was a case of Yeah, just me and Ryan, small room. And apart from the Create the Umbrella subdivisions, there wasn't much strategy to our success. This is like, you know, tail end of '21 season, market's ripe, winning business was easy. So we were able to— I had a 6-month restricted covenant, so I couldn't touch anyone that I'd worked with over a period of time. But Ryan was quite fortunate that he had Um, some clients he was able to 2P over from TeamShip. Um, so there's 2 or 3 clients he was basing off. So we had quite a good healthy start, or at least he had a good healthy start. I had nothing to like work off. Um, so I had to work completely from scratch. Um, so, and it was just, um, just pick up the phone, cold call. Um, nothing sexy, nothing glamorous. Like I just set up like a business. Um, this is what our intent is, can you help me? And that was the pitch. Um, it like, there's nothing glamorous like to do it. Um, no sales psychology. Um, uh, but it worked. And I think that was just like to say the market at the time, if you had good products, uh, if people liked you, then people would back you. And people, you know, want to like help people out, particularly if they're starting a business at the same time. And that was pretty much how we've done it at Method. So it worked then, why not just repeat what you know already works? So you just trust the process, right?

Um, and what market was this? Was this like the local Bristol market or was it just—

no, so this was, uh, this was like London primarily, um, picking up on the QA market that I'd done for like now probably 12 years by this point. Um, so I'm going into every phone call with confidence that like everyone knows who I am. I've been doing it long enough. I've been pushing enough content. So even if they didn't know me, you're going into a phone call with the confidence that They do know me. So therefore, like any objections, I've probably got an answer for you. If they are hiring, I know how to navigate that call to get the outcome and hopefully get a job on. And through doing just that and that alone, we were able to win like some like real interesting businesses. Our average fee was 21.7% at the time. Obviously businesses were willing to pay really whatever. I don't know why we come up with 21.7%. It sounded like some kind of like sales psychology of like, you know, when you go in, it's like something's like less than a pound, it's 99p.

Yeah.

You feel like you're getting more of a deal.

So 21.7 is not 22, but it sort of is.

Yeah. It seemed right. It seemed like—

Closest to 25.

Um, uh, and people just agreed, agreed to it. So sound.

So talk, talk me through, so thought process on getting an office big enough for 32 people. What was the thought process there?

Well, the thought process was that we've now got money.

Yeah.

We want to grow. And at the time we wanted to grow big. We thought that's how we thought.

What did that mean then? Grow big? What did you foresee?

We come up with a figure of 80 in terms of like headcount.

Wow.

So, um, yeah, in hindsight, that's quite an aggressive target.

Well, like 80 the following year or like over a couple of years when I get it.

It was over like a 4-year period. Um, so we wanted to get to 80 roughly. Um, uh, and, and yeah, I think like on reflection, like, yeah, we were just, we were just driven quite, quite a lot by ego at the time. You know, we'd come to the local Bristol market with a certain reputation of being like Ryan who'd co-founded Opus. Opus was a big success story. I'd worked at Opus, then I'd set up Method. That was obviously a success story. So, um, Had points to prove. Had a bit of a point to prove, probably not to ourselves, but it was more of a case of maybe like pressure from our peers that we had worked with like previously. So it was like, well, Jack's good, Ryan's good. These boys are going to create something really great together. Um, and I think that because we were driven by ego, you look at like all your competitors, what are they doing? What could we do better than them? Are we better than them? Probably convinced ourselves that we more likely were. So we maybe adopted some things that our competitors were doing that more than likely wasn't like a true reflection of like who we are as individuals. So when you're then building a business on foundations that you probably don't gel with, yeah, it was a recipe for disaster.

Just honestly, I really appreciate you being honest around this. So just on that, just quickly, because I speak to a lot of recruitment founders, but I've also spoke to a lot of like solo founders, founders of small businesses, and the comparison thing is like a real thing.

Yeah.

I mean, it is in life in general, but in terms of like the recruitment business, it's something that I know a lot of people struggle with.

The logic was right. You've got to look at like what your competitor's doing, but like where we got it wrong was thinking that we could do it better than them. And then where we got even more wrong was like, well, is that who we are? Um, and we started to build a business that was quite woke and quite fluffy. And that just wasn't me and Ryan. Like, I like wearing a— I like wearing like a blazer. Like, I like speaking quite directly and honestly. And we were then creating a business that just wasn't that in any way, shape, or form. So we're just forcing something— it's a square peg round hole situation.

Honestly, I've heard— I've like— that whole period, that happened to a lot of people. They just found themselves pandering to what people wanted.

Yeah.

And then got to whatever point, looked in the mirror and gone, hang on a minute, this isn't how we got to where we got to, or this isn't actually a true reflection of what we're about. And then that's just not a nice position to be in if you look around and you don't enjoy what it is that you're standing for, what you're championing, and it's your business, you're leading the business. What— so in terms of like going into— so this is like 2023, right? Like, did we still have that same belief and strategy around we'll just build these like niche brands? Was that still the play? Was that like the big sort of play where it's like, right, let's bring on experienced people You know, why wouldn't they want to join us? And was that the play?

Well, yeah, so like after that 6-month period, we then, you know, big, big office for like 32 people so that we can then, you know, meet the plan that we set out. Um, and we'd hired 6 people, uh, some of them we had worked with before, but collaboratively we've never worked together before. Um, We had no systems, no structure, no process, building a brand new database. And we'd quadrupled our headcount at the time. And I think the biggest lesson that I learned at that point is that like, you just took on way too much at the time. So we're hemorrhaging money. So we now got an office there, we're just hemorrhaging money on.

What long story to buy them? How long was the lease?

I think it was a 2-year upfront agreement. So hemorrhaging money on that. We've had to get all LinkedIn licenses, obviously LinkedIn's not cheap, new laptops. So we're just, it just feels like at the time we're just chucking money away. And now we've now got a team that have never worked together before and the market is absolutely fucking plummeted. And, you know, me and Ryan, we, we felt obliged to, they trusted us. So we felt obliged to meet that trust and give them the opportunity and held onto them for as long as we could. And You know, in hindsight, we probably should have hired slower, fired faster.

When did you really start to feel like the market was turned then? Because was it, what were the markets in your, what were your markets? You said QA, that was your, you always been your bread and butter, but what markets would you say you was in when we say the market started to plummet? In general?

So in tech in general, so we were doing primarily software engineering, QA, data at the time. And it was pretty much like at the point of like, right, we've just signed the lease on the office. We've just hired these people. People just started. And then you could then just start to see like the murmurs in the market of like things just changing. Um, and what had worked for me and Ryan wasn't working for the guys. Um, and it's because we didn't have anything that was repeatable. We didn't have a process. I'm a big believer now in that, like, having good set of, like, best practices, processes, standards, working systems that are repeatable, scalable, then sets your standards that allows you to then build, like, around it.

Yeah, no matter what size you are, that isn't something you need to wait until you're, like, whatever headcount to have that. Yeah, I think at the time it was, again, how experienced was on average was these people that you hired?

Um, they all had at least like 2 years experience.

So I just spent a lot of time in like a good period.

So to a max, like 4 or 5, uh, years. I think that the challenge that me and Ryan had is that being founders is that like when things are not working, it just, everything feels like on you. Well, it is, it is on you. You've hired these people, you've took their life and trust and careers into your hands. You're now responsible for that. So we felt the need to meet that responsibility. And I think that like being stressed.

Yeah. Was this your most stressful period?

Oh, fuck me. Yeah. Like being stressed, being victorious. Like they just didn't get the best out of us as founders in terms of like the way that we were communicating with people. And you know, I think in hindsight that they were maybe the right people for the right type of market conditions, but Uh, the market had shifted and we weren't being the best leaders to them, and we just got to a point where money then started to run, you know, quite frankly, quite, quite low. And we then started to have to make some, like, difficult decisions around it.

Yeah, no, I think that's— really appreciate you sharing that because you're right, like, it is, it is hard to show up as a great leader when maybe, like, behind closed doors you are feeling really stressed with maybe, yeah, self-doubt. Did we make the right decision? What have we done? You're thinking about your own personal situation and got a family to support. Like, there's a lot going on there, right? So I get why that would then— with you being brutally honest, actually, yeah, was I showing up and being the best manager and leader, uh, then probably not. But this is, this is the reality of what I was going through. But what, what, just so we understand, so like I've got here like around a 6-month to 18-month period. So this was like what, mid— so like 2023 to like mid-2024?

Yeah.

What we're talking.

Yeah. So it was probably a good solid 12-month period that we tried to make it work in 2023.

But, but yeah, just found it hard.

Yeah.

Should we talk about the, the, like we're talking about it now. What, what is it that you, that you found really hard in this? Let's just talk about it. Cause I know people will appreciate this because there'll be plenty of people out there that that maybe go through this but never talk about it. Like, what, what did you personally find really hard about this, this period?

Well, when me and Ryan set up the business, um, and part of the risk that I was having to take was that, uh, my wife was pregnant, so I was on single salary. So I was walking away from Method where it was stable, I'm earning the most amount of money I've ever earned before, to then take the gamble and the risk that, okay, well, I'm setting up the business with Ryan from scratch, um, single salary and we just got our first mortgage. So I'm hemorrhaging more money personally than I've ever personally done before. So I think that like when you've then got certain things in your life that are, um, amplifying the things that you're feeling in business, everything just feels so much bigger and harder. And, and I just didn't deal with it like very well at the time. And the only way I was just dealing with it was get home and jump back on the job boards, jump back on LinkedIn, do more projects, try and win more business, get more development emails out and more doesn't necessarily like get you the results of what you're looking at. There's no point trying to like do something where your mind is just so cooked, then actually just, if I was to reflect back on some of the messages I was going out at the time, I'd probably fucking like, yeah, I think the term is like professional ick. Like I'd be like, what the fuck is that? You know?

So do you think, do you think you could have snapped out of that though? Like, if, if me and you met as like friends or something, and then I was like, Jack, like, what, what's going on? Like, you just seem like you're just burning the candle at both ends. Like, do you think you could have snapped out of it, or you just felt like there's no other option here besides to do more? I need to do as much as possible, got my family to support, got this business, it's not quite going out really. Like, do you think you could have brought yourself out of that, or did you have to go through actually really tough periods in that to go, shit, actually, that probably wasn't the thing I should have been doing?

Big believer in, like, everything, like, happens for a reason. So I think I had to, like, go through that pain to know how to build the business, like, now. Um, but I decided at that particular point to get a life coach, um, which, um, was like an unbiased person that allowed me to offload on at that particular time that wouldn't like tell me what to do but would objectively challenge things that like what are like important to me.

Which we— because this, this almost— this all boiled over to— I think you shared with me this all boiled over to a point where like you passed out or something. Yeah. So, and then you said twice, or that happened twice.

Uh, yeah.

Um, because this is the thing, like, this is what I hope you don't mind talking about it, just because there will be things that people went through. And the reason why I asked you about, do you feel like you snapped out of it— like, I've, I've had people on this podcast, I've met people who they've— it's ended up being their whole mission to help other people not get to that point. And I don't know, with, with this sorts of things, it's very easy now to say, to talk about work-life balance, shouldn't be working at hard jack and stuff. But when, when you're in it and it's, it's your business and you've got a family to provide for, like, it, it's hard to not just try and chuck it all at it even if, if we were to go back then and look at what the quality of our work, it probably isn't there. But I do almost feel like it's one of those things, like you said, it happens for a reason, but almost it's like one of those hard lessons that you can only learn by going through it.

Yeah.

But this all like built up to a point where— what, you was— you just doing something and then it just— you passed out?

Uh, not, not quite. So like, I was— I've always used like the gym as a bit of an escape to like just like help clear my head and, uh, and just keep a bit of a balance between maybe of the demons that I'm experiencing during work. Um, but yeah, I think that like obviously got my family stuff, um, going on, like new dads. Um, I've decided to then do like a garden myself. Um, uh, so that was like a big project. Um, still doing the business, still trying to train. And like one morning just went into the gym as I normally would, was just training, got off the, um, the devil bike at the time and, uh, just started walking towards the the, like, the water, like, machine. And, uh, next thing I know, I'm like, uh, woke up on the, on the floor, um, got like a whole bunch of people around me, um, apparently I was having like a fit, um, split my chin open, blood everywhere, and then got blue lighted to, uh, to hospital. So, um, and, uh, yeah, they just put it down to like stress.

Really?

Um, so yeah, that was the first time So I guess like that was probably my body's way of just saying that like, if you're not gonna slow down, mate, then yeah, we'll do it for you.

And was this in this period that we're talking about? Yeah.

Um, and then the second time was probably about 12 months after that. So we're still in that like 12-month period where, um, I just went out for a run, started having like heart like pains and issues at the time, and, um, Yeah, went to like hospital, had like all of like the blood tests, and again they just put it down to like stress, anxiety at the time. So, um, again, it was probably like the second time of like my body just saying like, look, mate, you need to like cool your jets a bit here.

So, um, yeah, is that like a catalyst for a lot, or was you already doing— was you already trying to bring in better habits? Did you have a life coach before that point?

So I was having it. So in that like 12-month period, I was having like a life coach. Um, so, um, and they like, you It's like, if, if, if someone's at a point where maybe they're resonating with some of this type of stuff, I definitely would recommend like getting a life coach because they do give you the, the structure to get a better balance on the stuff that is like important to you. So some of the work that I was doing with him at the time was like, uh, basic stuff, right?

What's something you might know?

Yeah, like what, what's, what's, what's like, what's important to you? Write it down. How much time are you spending on those things now? And how much time would you like to spend on those types of things? And for me, it was basic stuff. It was like, I like going to the gym and having like time to do my fitness. I like having a clean and tidy house. I want to spend time with my family. So just basic stuff like that. But like, there's I was spending 4 or 5 hours a week trying to clean my house. I was like, well, why are you spending 4 or 5 hours of your time trying to clean your house when you don't have enough time already? So why don't you then just pay for a cleaner? And it was then just like, well, that makes sense. Like, a cleaner's like 60 quid for a week. So like, well, that's 4 or 5 hours now I've got back of my time. Then decided on Fridays, we now finish at 2 o'clock on Friday. So that gives me that additional half a day to spend time with my family. Or going to go and play golf with Ryan or go to the gym or do some of the things I wanted to. So, um, by having the life coach, that allowed me to just like recognize like what is important to me and then start put— putting the structure in place so that my life was a little bit more optimized. So I didn't feel like I was just running at a million miles an hour trying to do all of these things, trying to fit in the fitness, trying to fit in the family time when I'm still working til 6, 7 o'clock on a Friday and then trying to catch up on the weekends as well.

So, and like, was it— obviously whenever I speak to people about this, it's like just helpful to speak to someone that like is out of your circle or just consistently having those— that ability to have those sorts of conversations. I'm like, I don't— who else would you be having those sorts of conversations with consistently?

Well, again, another thing that having a life coach taught me was like the— they call it like the ripple effect. And real basic, like if you were to drop a pebble in water, it's going to create a ripple. So you just bang your name in the center of that first circle. You then draw all the outer circles of that. And then you then basically just write down like, who are the people that are closest to you? So it was like Ryan, it was Chloe, it was my kids. And then it would be like my employees and then it would be like my friends. But basically, if they're super close to you, so Ryan and Chloe were essentially on the first circle, and then you would then put the names outward. And then he would then objectively challenge me, being like, well, why is that person on the fourth ring? Why are they not, like, this is your best friend. Why are they not on like the first or the second ring? And I realized that like, I was forcefully like, not trying to speak to my friends at the time because I didn't want to tell them like, the business was stressful, the business wasn't like going well, that whole ego thing of like, I've got my shit together, when actually inwards I'm fucking like falling apart. Um, so why do you think that is, if you reflect on that?

Because I can, I can relate to that. Like, if ever I— yeah, I can just so relate to that. Where the easiest way for me to relate to that is I've— I have a— as we were talking about like fitness and stuff before, like I have a pt, and whenever I've had a couple of days where I've gone rogue or I found it really hard and I'm feeling stressed, like, I won't text him. I'll just go like inward, you know what I mean? So I can really relate to that. And same with work as well, to be fair. If I'm feeling really like it's in a tough spot or it's just spending a lot of time in my head when I'm just doing normal stuff, I will sort of go in on myself and go inward. And like, yeah, Jess can always pick up on it. But why do you think that is? Because I reckon that would be really common.

Um, I like a guy called Thomas Erikson. He wrote a book called Surrounded by Idiots. And, um, in his book he puts people into like 3 categories. So he will say that people are either a shot glass, they're a pint glass, or they're a barrel. Um, my wife, she's a shot glass. So if there's a problem, fills up really quickly, spills over, not much of a mess to clean up, but it happens fucking quite a lot, you know. Um, the wind can change directions, she's mildly pissed off. Um, I'm a barrel. So like, I take on, I take on, I take on, I fill up, I fill up, I fill up, but when it fucking spills over, it's normally a big fucking mess to spill over, right? Um, and I I think it's then just recognizing some of those things where actually, if I'm going quiet and I'm not speaking to my mates, I now have to tell my friends, being like, look, Ryan, if I've gone quiet, then I need you to say to me, mate, what's up? You've gone quiet. And it then opens up a conversation. So again, it's building those systems. It's about learning about yourself, building those systems, putting those things in place so that if I am falling into that trap, then Like people then just like, fricking challenge me around it. What's going on? And I might be okay, but at least there's a form of discussion at that point. And the only way that like, if those people are on those outer rings and they are the important people to you, you just gotta be like open, honest, pull them back in. And normally once you've like started to have that conversation, you're like, frick me. Like, why didn't I have that sooner? Like, it feels so much better for just like offloading. Um, so. It's a real basic, like, thing that life coaches, like, teaches you, but I found it, like, really useful for, like, managing myself. Um, but then when I've had conversations about leading other people, other people have had a situation, I just then, like, do that exercise with them, and they're like, fuck me, I love this, this is good.

So, so where, where do you— because clearly you were trying to bring in the habits, taking action, before that second time. So what, like, how, how did you feel mentally coming out of that then? Because you probably must have thought that you've been taking action, you've been doing some good things, like, how come I'm, I'm really— my body's telling me I'm really stressed? Like, I'm assuming you had like pretty severe— I've never—

I've—

so my wife Jess, she's had like several panic attacks. I've, I've never had— I'm not saying you had a panic attack, but I'm like, I've never experienced that. But I can imagine you must have felt into quite a lot of discomfort for you to be like, right, I'm gonna go to hospital, this doesn't feel right. But still, obviously they put it down to stress on your body. Like, how was you feeling coming out of that then? Because you must have felt like you're doing some of the work.

Yeah, I think you've got to be starting to, to be a bit just like more honest with yourself. So, um, like, I didn't like— I didn't dwell on it for like any time really. It was a case of like, if anything, it opened up more of a form of discussion with Ryan, like how I'm thinking, how I'm feeling at that particular time. And because office is like so small, people see and feel everything anyway. So what I actually realized was, is that like all of these things that I was like suppressing within me, the guys were actually seeing it and feeding it. I just wasn't picking up on the read on, on it. Um, so like you thought you was hiding it but they couldn't see it. Yeah, fuck me. And there's Ryan's like, at times where I've just felt like I'm like just treading on eggshells. Um, and he's a horrible— like he was like ready to blow up basically, or ready to like Yeah, um, and people read it in body language, facial expressions, the sharpness in your email, your text message, or the lack of communications, right? So, um, what was you—

so what at this, like, what was you— so what was you finding really hard then? Just the business was in a really tricky spot still, like you was really struggling with that?

Well, obviously when we set the business, we had like a bank of money and that money is just like dwindling down. And then you then just start looking at like the people who got in the business, the performance of the business. You're then looking at like the runway that you've got, the pipeline that you've got, the pipeline's fucked, or the money's dwindling down. So, and I've got, well, between me and Ryan, the responsibility of these, of these like individuals. Um, and it was just at that particular point where we were like, look, we need to fucking scale back here. Hmm.

Did you, so I'm assuming then you, you played out the scenario multiple times, like we'll probably go out of business here, and what happened?

That would have been like the outcome if we didn't take that change and make some changes. Um, and it starts with us as founders, right?

Like, um, so where, where do you feel like we— so when did we really, really start putting our head above this water then? Was it like going into— what was it, 2024? Was it really going into start of this year where you had maybe the most clarity and like, right, Yeah. So we learned this the hard way. This is where we're now accepting it. Let's crack on.

Yeah. So we stripped back to just me, Ryan, Omar, and the time we'd worked with Omar like previously. And, um, you know, he had the same level of like grit, hustle, determination, and competitiveness, uh, to build in the way that we wanted to build. Uh, and I think at the time we were just billing rather than building. Right. So it was a case of like, right, let's just reflect on What's worked, what's not worked, and then basically hit the reset button and then focus on building the repeatable systems, the process that when we do scale again, people can then plug into that and be really mindful around when we scale, let's not scale beyond the current headcount of what we've got at the moment, because otherwise we're just going to be doubling the culture of the business. Um, and just start from there. Um, and. You know, when obviously you've had to, like, you've no longer got the accountability to the other people. Um, you, yeah, it's like, it's like a weight lifted off your shoulder. Um, you feel like you can breathe. And then like when you're then just doing the job in the way that you've always done the job, um, it, it becomes fun again. Right. Um, and then like like my brain, the way that my brain works is that like, if I've got little feedback loops, those little endorphin hits, then even if it's just a case of you find a hot candidate, you get excited about a hot candidate, you send them to a job, you get an interview request, and then you can then start to like just feel that money is going to come in somewhere. It's just about enjoying those moments again, rather than worrying about like the let's build the we do dev and the we do QA and the we do platform and the we do data, because like none of that's fucking important at the moment. The thing that is important is let's build from day one again, basically. And that's, and that was going into this year, uh, 2024, um, into this year. Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay. So let's talk about this then. So like maybe what might be helpful here is, so you made some, sounds like you made some decisions that maybe both you and Ryan felt like you maybe should have made earlier. But like, what I'm just thinking, someone might be listening right now that is in, is in that, is in that particular position of they're going into next year looking around feeling like this isn't the type of business that I want, or made some decisions here that actually maybe doesn't match up with, with how I see our future, or they maybe haven't made those hard decisions that they know they've been needing to make. So would you mind just sharing, like, what, like, going into this year, you said it felt like a weight has been lifted, but what, what else did this sort of clarity give just you in terms of the energy that you could give the business, everything else? Because I think that would just be helpful for people to hear who are maybe just stuck in that position, which maybe you was in, because there'll be people who are in that position right now going into next year. And like, now you know, you look great. You seem like you're in a really good position, you know, good position, just also personally, not just professionally. We're going in, we're like—

I'm—

I've literally got it on my, um, um, I've literally got it on my screen, uh, which is like, I— if, if I feel like I'm making progress, like, that's all I care about. So I feel like you're making progress. Is it maybe be as quickly as you'd like it to be when we first started this business. No, but we're making progress. You've got clarity on what you want. So what have been the big benefits of, you know, going into this year? We're getting towards the end of this year now, but, you know, getting to know you and preparing for this, it feels like you're in a really good spot, but you've gone through a lot of hard shit to get there.

Yeah.

What's been the other, like, just, just talk to, like, the main benefits that you found this year, like having more clarity and where you are now, because that might just really inspire someone listening to this who's in that shit spot right I think it just starts with taking it back to maybe like the life coach piece.

Um, it's just like, you can only be as— like, it's all about you. So like, get yourself in like a good spot. Um, because I can't be a great partner to my wife if I'm not being the best version of myself. So it's just like, as I've said before, working out like what is important to you, how much time is being spent on those things currently, what does it ideally look like, and then like work out a plan intently of like, okay, well, if that's not the shape of how that is at the moment that gives me my happiness, um, then work out that as your like your primary plan. And because if you're in a good spot and you're trying to lead a vision, you're trying to lead a strategy, and you're trying to be present for your kids, your wife, or going to the gym or doing any of those, those things, I'm a big believer that everything has a ripple effect. So if things are not working out right now, get yourself sorted. And that ripple effect will then hopefully then start to happen on the business, particularly like those people that are like really close to you. So, um, I'd say that like that, that is the main thing.

Yeah, that's fair. I'm, I'm a huge believer in that myself. I always say to people like, if you're performing outside of work, then you massively have a better chance of performing in work.

Yeah.

And I think that can be overlooked. Like, you can easily just chuck yourself at what you was doing, right? More, more LinkedIn messages, more emails, more spec outs, like just more the job. But actually, where you've had the biggest unlock, which is like you said, has had a huge ripple effect, is actually you feeling like you've got your own house in order as a person.

Yeah, I think then obviously on the, the business side is then like, do you have the right strategy in place? Um, and strategy is great, but then how are you then going to actually execute that in practice? Um, because talking a great— everyone can talk a great game in recruitment, but then actually then doing is always like the hard part. So, um, just make sure that like you've got the like your right weekly plan, your daily plans, like the right metrics to then measure those, those, those, those things.

So should we talk about some of those things that we feel like we've done really well this year then? Because one of the things that you think you, you feel like you've done really well is just really strip it back to basics. And I'm sure, like, you'll see this in your world. I do feel like that, that could have been really hard for a lot of people this year with the amount of noise around AI technology Like, I'm sure you get sold to left, right, and center. Like, I speak to a lot of founders of small recruitment businesses and solo founders where if they're being brutally honest, when you're talking about where you're spending your time, they're spending more time demoing new products than they are like trying to speak to prospects and clients.

Yeah.

So when we say strip it back to basics, should we just talk about that for a second? Like, how, how do you view that? What, what does that look like? Because we hear that a lot, don't we? World-class basics in recruitment. So what does that—

yeah, I guess like, there was, there was a period of like in my career, so I was a QA specialist recruiter, um, and I've then intentionally decided that I'm no longer going to be a specialist QA recruiter. What's best for the business is to elevate myself to focus on more senior, like, appointments, um, so that any of those relationships that I then foster more than likely will then go to a new company. They'll look at the strategy, they'll look at the gaps in that market or in that business, and then they'll then need to hire. And I've done my, if I've done my job good enough, then they might need a team of 5 developers, 10 developers, 30 developers. So the top-down approach, using that top-down approach more intentionally. But actually the biggest problem I had was that I went through like a bit of like identity crisis, like at that point. I've gone from being someone who everyone knew, I went into every phone call with like total confidence, to then like having not much confidence when actually then calling people that I'd never ever like known or worked with like before. So at that particular time, I then went searching for, right, you, the LinkedIn posts around the SDR model, and you start listening to sales psychology, and you start listening and reading more books. And you're just taking all of that on. And I found myself reshaping a script and rewriting scripts and trying to build a new process that again, wasn't me, but it seemed like that's what the, like everyone was saying that the market's tough. This is the way that you should be doing like sales. This is the way that you should be doing recruitment. These are your openers and they might work for some people, but I tried it. It didn't work for me. So part of the reset for me as well was I needed to go back to doing what I knew that, that worked. And for me, that was being community-led in the way that I build events, bring people to those events, and then use what I, uh— have you ever heard of Daniel Pressley?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So obviously he uses like the 8 to 12 different like touch points, 7 hours worth of like someone's time to build trust. Um, and it's obviously quite a consumer marketing play, but like, to me that made total sense. So I then basically stripped it right back to running events and then using those 8 to 12 different touchpoints, send an email out to someone, have a video call with them, send the follow-up after the video call. And then by the time they've actually then come to the event and then spent 4 hours with you, the 8 to 12 different touchpoints have essentially been taken care of, the 7 hours worth have been taken care of. And then any conversation beyond that is, hello mate, how are you doing? And it no longer needed to be business development phone call the SDR way that I thought that was needed. So for me, it was just a case of like, just focus on what you know that works and do it to the highest standard that you know you can do. And as a result of like even just running like 4 events in partnership with some new customers that we wanted to, so we were to host these at a target customer's office that we wanted to work with or one of our existing customers. And off the back of that activity alone, we were able to bring in about £750,000 worth of new revenue from those relationships.

Yes. Is this the Launch Technology Leadership Forum?

Yeah.

Is that that? Yeah. Nice. What, so what is it that you've, does that just really, you've just found that just works really well with like your style, like getting people in the room?

I wrote in Spanish, but like, yeah, like what works for me won't work for everyone. Um, there's a, there's a recruiter I know called Danielle, and like her way of like building— she was an 800 grand a year biller, but she just basically like, um, coded up every manager, every candidate, and she would just like send out like e-shot after e-shot after e-shot, or spec CV after spec CV. Um, and that way just works for her, does 800 grand off the back of it. Like, I've never ever worked in, in that way. Um, so this works for me, it might not work for everyone. I think you've got to be a more passionate around like giving back to people, creating value, being patient. It is a longer-term play and you might not necessarily like get any guaranteed like return.

So what, what was it that— what is it that you think really pulled you away from what you knew is like your way or how you like to work? Like what, what do you think really took you away from that, like really getting hooked and all this other stuff? Was it just— was you looking for like a silver bullet almost, or I don't know, like what Yeah, a little bit.

It's a little bit like everything on the AI hype, right? Like you get so many people in the recruitment world that are telling you that this is the new way to do something and the market is tough and you're like, well, fuck it. Like I might as well try it. Like, because if it's working for them, then it might work for me. And you know, like Sourcewell, like I know so many people that use Sourcewell and they bang on about it and they love it. I tried it and for me to think about like the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth iteration of it, like it just didn't work for me. I needed that, like I'm all about like spark of creativity. Like one day I'm writing an email, I'm like fucking Shakespeare and it sounds great. And then the other day I'm like, fuck me, this is like Key Stage 2, like, like, like, yeah. So, so for like. Like, yeah, he just got pulled in.

Yeah, fair.

So I think it just goes down to, like, you've probably built a business, you've probably been a builder, you know what works. Just stick to what, what you know that what works and try not to get pulled into too much of, like, the other things.

Um, yeah, go, go explore, but don't change your entire fucking business model or approach to that Yeah, I think what, what I'd probably say on that, I'm, I mean, I literally have a business where we have all different recruiters deliver training, so it's like different voices, which could maybe not help the situation that you was in. But I think what I'm hearing is like, you've got, you've got like, you've got to have something to put it on top of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It sounds like maybe you lost that a bit, you lost your way. That obviously went through those different things, find those different things that works, but you probably would have— it sorts well, a different tool, just a different approach. If you was layering that on top of like your core way of doing it that you know works, that's a way better position to be in rather than trying to add all these different ideas to like build your way. Like, you've got to start with understanding what your way is as a foundation and then adding stuff on top, because it is— it's really hard to— then you're just like doing all these different things, being pulled in those different directions. But I think you've got to try and get to a point where you build your way of, of doing it. And if you're happy with that, then adding things on top— because I, I do get that, and sometimes I'm mindful of that with the podcast, you know, different people saying different things can pull people in those different angles. But I think oftentimes you can end up doing that when you're just looking for those silver bullets. But actually, we've got to start from like, right, what is my way of doing what I know that works? Start there and then be like, right, okay, I'm happy with that. Let me try this for a bit. Experiment. Does that work for me? No. Okay, right, I'm gonna try that. You've got to start with like your way and your foundation.

Yeah, and I think then like when, when you're not getting any results, if you've done 3, 4 months of solid BD in the way that you have always done it, um, and you're not getting the results, then obviously then that's when you start looking for other solutions. Um, and I was more than likely at that point, like 3, 4 months of graft, not getting results, and then decided to then completely flip my, my approach, which then didn't even give me results off the back of it anyway. So, um, but yeah, I, I agree.

That is the hard thing as well, as you said. To be fair, if you're doing what you've always done and it's not working out, that is, that stuff, then I guess you've got, you've got the, you've got to look at the data and it's like, right, okay, I've done this, this has always worked, I'm not getting the outcomes that I'm normally used to, then of course you've got to be open-minded, but maybe not so open minded where you completely flip the script. Yeah, like it sounded like you did.

Yeah, I think they're like, it's always, it's always stuff that is beyond like your control more often than not. Like if the market has like shifted, like there's not much you can do about it, um, other than continue to persevere and ride it out sometimes.

How do you think about that? Because you put here, I don't know, I can't remember if you said this was like for you or just the team, said double down on the niche by focusing on Microsoft Dynamics. Is that you yourself, or is that more of a team?

So, um, we've got a bit of a weird setup with our business. So, um, you've got me, Ryan, and, uh, Pierre. Uh, we focus specifically on, uh, fintech, payment tech businesses, uh, and, uh, we're quite client, client-led in our, like, a way in our approach to, uh, winning them. So we normally would use case studies, examples of like how we built and scaled teams through a period of hypergrowth, and that is like everything full end-to-end on the software engineering side. And then we, by complete accident, started to get into the Microsoft Dynamics space. So Omar made a cold call to a customer. They were looking for a head of data science or something like that. They were a consulting business, but essentially their business model was Microsoft Dynamics. I heard of Microsoft Dynamics. There was, you know, big players in that space, your Interex, that was obviously a huge success story that built their business model off of it. But through like Omar doing a good job, we started to realize that actually like there is a path of least resistance here in the sense that there wasn't much in the way of talent acquisition teams giving you the PSL objection. Most managers weren't on LinkedIn. They were quite traditional in the way that they like to do business. It was meet in person. If you've then met them in person, they'll then let you into their immediate network. So it was very referral driven. Um, if you had good products, um, and you could spec in, then, uh, they would buy from you. And that fitted Omar's perfect way of working. So it was like playing to his strengths. So we're like, fuck it, we gotta just double down on, on that and see how much of an opportunity that creates. And through his efforts, it just opened up a whole, like, new business, like, line for us. Um, we do dynamics Well, yeah, that, that might be the business model one day. Uh, uh, um, so the original plan might play out yet though, after, after all. It's just we do tech and we do dynamics. That is it.

Um, the, the reason why I bring that up, I wanted to talk about, is because that's definitely something that I've seen quite consistently this year, which is all over the last 12-18 months, is I, I do think that's a really important thing that we need to be mindful of whether in this game where sometimes we do need a slight adjustment, market, um, market focus, adjacent move. I'm sure you've seen it in your time.

Yeah, that can really—

it's not a silver bullet, but can make a huge difference. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, like, I know it is sometimes it's like hard to, hard to know when to like stick or twist, right? And it's like, right, I've known this ecosystem, this world, like for however long. If I stick at it, I know what I'm doing, it's comfortable, it should turn around. But I think consistently over this period where we're talking about where it has been tougher for a lot of people, I'd say I've seen people where they have done well is if they, they've like discovered something like this where it works to their strengths, or it's a slightly different market change, or just adjacent sector to what they've done. And I do think this is something that recruitment leaders need to be thinking about and keeping our eyes open to, because that story there That could be a huge thing in another 12 months' time for the business that's happened.

Yeah.

I think how do you create more intentional moments like that?

I think if you've, if you're a recruiter that's maybe had experience pivoting markets multiple times over, like Omar had, then like he wasn't precious around like giving another roll of the dice and seeing if it could, could work. Whereas me, when I was doing the QA market, I'd done that market for like like 12, 13 years, and like I'd not had that pivot away from doing it, and I wasn't really ready to give up like everything I built around it. Um, might have been my ego in there still somewhere. Um, so I think like if you are a recruiter and you're quite susceptible to like either taking a risk or making a pivot, Um, that was intentional. Um, because some people, it might be the fact that your personality style suits that market much better. Like, I know, I know a recruiter called Ryan, um, but, uh, uh, Ryan's dad, who was a tech recruiter, um, didn't really set the world alight. He's now gone and done renewables for, um, SR2, and he's fucking killing it. Um, so it was like the best gamble that he could have like played at that particular time.

So something you've got to be mindful of, I think. Yeah, I'm not— I'm absolutely not advocating, like, I think listen to a lot of these conversations and on this podcast you'll hear a lot of the same in terms of like what you've gone through, right? Building QA, building trust, credibility over a long period of time. That is a huge part of the recipe to succeed in anything, like staying in the game, doing it for a long period of time. Yeah, not chopping and changing all the time. But I, I do think that's been fairly, uh, like I've seen that a lot in terms of being smart with the slight adjacent moves that you make. And I do think that's— I personally, I think that's like a top-down responsibility. I think, yeah, you've got to listen to recruiters, obviously, when they're speaking to people, they're following information and seeing opportunities. But then I think hopefully that's something that you can learn from there, take into the, the next year, the years, but, um, later on than that, and like really just be mindful of, is this the right market for this person? Yeah. And actually, is there something something close to it or near it that would be even better?

Yeah, one thing that we've done to try and aid those decisions is we started to look at like client personas. So like, what does this person look like, sound like? What age demographic do they fit into? Where do they live? What are they into? Are they someone who's like, you know, in the dynamics world, they're normally like 45 plus. White middle-class male, and they like talking about sport and golf and going to the pub. So anyone whose, like, personality style might suit that, i.e., Omar, who watches every sport going. So any conversation that he brings to the table, if it's not about Dynamics, at least he's got someone else that he can, like, lean on and talk to. So we try to be a bit more mindful of, like, when we are putting people on a Microsoft Dynamics Okay, do they fit maybe some of the personality archetypes that are on that market to set them up for best chance of success?

Yeah. So what, going into next year then, what we're really doubling down on, what's really like top of mind? Obviously being, you know, we've spoken a lot about challenging parts where you are now feeling like we've got a lot more clarity about things, you found your groove again. Like, what are you really staying focused on going into next year?

Yeah, well, we're now like 8 people, um, so back up to like the original like headcount target of we like needed to be. And for us is doubling down on the Microsoft Dynamics market. So we've made a bit of a pivot and you take a bit of a read on the market. So we're going more down a partnership model and we've done a bit of a test to see, is this the right route for us to go down? So when we go and pitch for work, because it's very contract driven, we are finding that we're going up against clients, big software integration partners, and the CIO of the business wants to basically just do the whole statement of work piece and outsource it rather than going through limited company contractors. Now, we're not equipped enough to do the whole statement of work piece. So rather than lose out on the chunk of revenue, we've now fostered relationships with some independent consultancies where we can then make them into those introductions to our clients. They would then go in, they would do the whole statement of work piece. And then any, like any introduction, we've then got a commercial agreement where we can take a slice off the top. And if they then need to then backfill contractors, then we're going to backfill those contractors. So that's able to make a huge dent in our like revenue line, particularly from a contractor point of view. So it's more around fostering those types of strategic partnerships with these SME consultancies that can do AI, that can do Microsoft Dynamics within, or AI within Microsoft Dynamics. So that's the—

nice. And then what about— and then you guys just very much focused on like building that fintech payment ecosystem, keep doing what you're doing there?

Yeah, still gonna continue on that trajectory. I've obviously launched Build Your Edge in partnership with Jeremy Burns, which will become many things over its tenure, but its primary purpose at the moment is a podcast, which is essentially a career-focused podcast where we invite an expert every single week on the show, and they've been invited because they've reached a level of maturity within their career. They've seen a thing, they've probably bled a bit in the process, and they can teach something to the audience. But more importantly, they can actually then leave a digital asset behind, which is downloadable and they can use on a practical sense. So, and in doing that, we are 18 episodes codes like en, and I've started to foster relationships with big community influencers that are associated to bigger groups. So there's something called the CTO Craft. I've got the founder of the CTO Craft coming on. We've built a podcast with him. We're now at a point where, do we invite him to be a strategic advisor to us because he's built Europe's largest CTO network? um, which has got 21,000 people in it. So how do I get my name very quickly associated to arguably one of the most influential people in that space? Um, so for us, it's doing the podcast, it's creating the downloadable digital assets, which become a fantastic business development tool for me to go in rather than using a spec CV or something. I'm I'm coming to the table with something that's completely unique that no one else is coming to them with, saying, hey, here's this digital asset that, you know, listen to the podcast, here's the downloadable digital asset. Would you maybe be interested in coming on as a guest in the future? And take them through that journey as like my primary business development approach. And so far so good.

Signing a bigger office for next year?

We've actually just signed for a bigger office. Yeah.

Or 30% more?

Not 30% more, no, incremental, incremental growth. So pick it up at 12%.

Nice, love that. I'm feeling, got good clarity, feeling positive going into next year. How are we feeling overall?

Yeah, good. I feel like I've got like the most like clarity that I've had in the business vision, the strategy, how we actually execute that on a, like a daily basis and on a weekly basis. Like the accountability there. I think like the trust in the people and the business, um, the culture is great, the environment's great, uh, we've got the systems and the structure and the process. So yeah, mate, yeah, good spot. I mean, we'll hit like our target ever for— we've like set this year. So we've always gone a little bit like, right, we'll, we'll put an extra 20% on top, and then you then come like 20% low or 30% lower. So it's the first time we'll, we'll hit that this year.

Nice. Well, look, I think it's safe to say, like, went through a lot to, like, learn a lot of these lessons, right? So the— even though I'm sure it's been, like, really hard in moments, the big benefit is going to be going into another year of business with, like, just having learned even more about yourself, about the business. I do think that's that's how I sort of think about the entrepreneurial journey, is it is just the biggest personal development journey, really, and it just doesn't stop.

Yeah.

And it is just so much more about, I think personally, than business. It's like just actually you as a person. Like, you just learn a lot about yourself when you're on this journey. And I know it is glamorized, and I'm definitely pro-entrepreneurship but I think we can't overlook that you do have to have self-awareness. You do have to really try and— it's part of the journey to really understand who you are, what's important to you. Um, but really cool to, to hear you going through all that and like the position you're now in. Like, it— the annoying thing is we've never— we will never like complete it. Like, we're never gonna have the perfect business. It never stops. But that's also the fun of it, I guess, when you sort of frame it. And actually, let's just try and create a business that for the most part I enjoy building, that feels purposeful and getting fulfillment from it, uh, versus just always stressing out that it's not perfect or it's not exactly where it should be. So I really appreciate just being really transparent and honest with us because I know a lot of people will resonate with that, and a lot of people will go, you know what, like, appreciate sharing that because there'll be a lot of people out there that don't have many people on those ripples. Yeah, it's just the truth of it. So hearing other people talk about how the challenges that you went through, uh, is really helpful because, as you know, online and particularly LinkedIn, we just see the highlight reel. Yeah, we're not going to see those, those, those hard parts. So really appreciate it coming on and being honest.

Thanks for having me, mate. And, um, yeah.