From Consultant to CEO: The Journey to a Recruitment MBO with Laura Clark

Laura, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Lovely to meet you properly.

Yeah.

And we're gonna have a really honest conversation about this journey that you've been on and the journey that you're, you're still on. And I think why I was really interested to sit down with you was you've gone through something that a lot of recruitment leaders, recruiters aspire to, but may not necessarily always happen. And that's, that's an MBA, a successful MBA. So in this conversation, I think it's gonna be really interesting to talk a bit about how you achieved that and how can people listening to this take those bits to make sure that they have a chance of doing that if that's something that they have aspirations to do.

Yep.

But also definitely talking about from the perspective of if I'm listening to this right now, I'm probably someone that wants to do well in my career and ambitious. I may already have done well in my career, and a carrot that's probably in front of me right now is an MBA. And I have a number of friends in the industry where I'm not sure that carrot's real.

Yeah, yeah.

Or is actually going to play out. So I think that's also the perspective that I want to talk through here in terms of as a leader, as a business owner, but then also as a recruiter that's being told this is the journey that's going to happen, some of them may be the red flags that we could point out, or what really matters and what's important if an MBA is actually going to happen. And I'm sure there's gonna be a few other things that we talk about as well. But let's give everyone a bit of context for those that don't know who you are, although you've done a brilliant job over the last, what, 2 or so years really building your brand?

I'm trying, I'm trying.

Posting consistently, sharing things. Yeah, that, that's all that matters, and you're doing that. So for, for the people that don't know who you are in terms of career milestones, and let me know if I get any of this wrong, so you now run a business called OA Recruitment Solutions. OA Recruitment Solutions.

Yep.

And you joined that in 2008.

Yep.

So you was an individual contributor recruitment consultant for like 3 and a half years, um, then you became a relationship manager Yep. Which was very BD-focused, winning clients, sales manager-esque type role. Then you had a really solid stint as an operations manager.

Yes.

And this is where it was more of the overall commercial side of things. It wasn't just like sales, bringing on clients, but actually managing a team, um, tech, business, branch manager, like a lot of other stuff. Yeah, commercial. Then We became a regional operations director, which meant you was running— I've got 4 and 3 branches here, so it might have been 4 at one point, then 3.

Yep.

Um, and then to give people an idea, uh, and then you became group CEO after that, is that right?

Yeah, my career was not linear. Okay, I think is probably the best way. And when we, we caught up before the podcast began, I think you probably have a better insight into my career than I can actually remember. Because what's not on LinkedIn is also 4 children in between all of those, all of those roles. Joining in a recession, having a growth business, then it went backwards, moving it forwards, lots of change. So my career isn't a step-by-step, and I don't think anyone's career is a step journey. You know, there are sidesteps, there are backward steps. So my LinkedIn, I don't know who was in control of that. I think I just randomly throughout my career made some job titles up. To get me forward, relationship manager being one of them, which was a short stint. So, okay, yeah, as close to the truth as I can remember.

But then you, you did— you're now the group CEO?

Yes.

And then when did the MBO go through?

It will be 3 years in March.

3 years?

Yeah.

Okay, cool. And yeah, I mean, that was— we're gonna obviously go through that, but that was an 8-figure valuation And on the journey now of paying that back, essentially.

Yes.

So responsibilities today, your role is very much future of the business. What are we doing to, I guess, keep improving, keep moving forward? Sales, marketing reporting to you.

Yep.

You're someone that now is getting out in the industry, networking. You call yourself a horizon scanner. Yes, which I feel like is quite a good term. You're spending a lot of time with clients. Yeah, there's 50 people in the organisation. There's— you then have like 3 people who are in sort of MD roles. You put here they run the business better than me.

They do.

And then I think this is— I can't remember what your financial year was, but we put here turnover £20 million, GP around £4 million.

Yeah.

And then in terms of breakup of that, and I said to you I haven't had loads of founders, leaders like yourself that operate in this type of world, is you— the breakup of that is the— I don't know if this is correct, but around 80% like temp.

Yeah, 78%.

70 to 80% temp, and then the rest of them. Yeah. Oh, sorry, 78%. Okay. And then part of that as well is that we do have this sort of RPO solution as well.

Yeah, so RPO and MSP, so high volume on-site, temp or perm.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, I think, I think that's all the bits.

That was a lot. You did well.

Everyone now has—

that's like a eulogy. Everyone now has like immediate context, which is massively helpful and completely lost as well in that career.

So why don't we, why don't we just like start with when I think— I know you said that your career wasn't linear, but something that you shared with me which I thought was quite interesting is you wouldn't have got anywhere near this MBO conversation and be in the position you're in now if you wasn't really proactive in understanding how you can keep moving your career forward.

Yes.

So let's just talk about that, because I don't know how you feel about this, but I think there'll be a lot of people out there that say the younger generation love to, like, expect things and Regardless of your age, I think it's a fair comment to say sometimes from an employee standpoint, you can say, I deserve this, I should get a pay rise, or I should do this, etc., or I deserve this. But how proactive have those people been? I'm not sure. Something that you shared with me when we prepared for this was you think people should try and be a lot more direct and proactive around what do I need to do to get your job?

Yeah.

And that, that job being the person ahead of you.

Yeah.

So let's just talk a bit about that because you might have any more insights on this now because I'm sure you advise people on this in your own business and you're aware of this in your own business, but you wouldn't have got anywhere near that MBO if you wasn't always trying to find out what do I need to do today to get me to the next point.

Yeah, so I think there's a couple of points that I think I'm thinking through as you speak. So one, you have to be in the right environment and you have to be surrounded by people that are really open-minded by that kind of career regression, and it is aggression. I am and have been described throughout my career as quite aggressive, which I think is also seen as negative. Maybe assertive is a better word, but I would never allow anyone to hold me back on what I wanted to achieve. And if that meant that I wasn't staying within the business, albeit my mum started the company, which, which we can go into. We were actually laughing yesterday between us both because we were talking about someone who I've recently employed who reminds me a lot of myself. And I was like, oh my God, was I like this to manage? And she said, yes, you were. And she said, honestly, Laura, the amount of times you told me, I am leaving if you don't let me do that. And I was, I was a misbehaved maverick in my career where I was highly emotional, highly driven. And if I didn't have a clear vision of what I could do next, I would get really upset about it. That's immature as well, right? So we don't wanna act immature. I was young. I joined my role when I was 19. But I also think that there's, there's a real amount, if you get a good leader behind you, there's real admiration for that kind of go-getter personality. When I see people like that, I think they are so rare and I'm like, come and misbehave in my business, that's fine. I will help you get where you need to get to. But you need those, those people. What I love about recruitment as well is you really can draw your own path. You know, if you hit your target, that's what you're paid to do. So you get paid more for going above and beyond, and that's down to you. Like, of course there's training and there's people that can support you, you've got to be given the right tools, and— but ultimately, how much you put in in recruitment is how much you get out. And I think that over the last few years, recruitment leaders— and I have actually been a victim of this— have been allowing people to operate without that kind of attitude because the market's been easier. The last 12 months, the market's become a lot tougher and you realise how important those skills are when you need people that can go and hunt business and go and farm and grow and push your company forward.

Mm-hmm.

So it's a, it's a trait that you're not gonna have everyone in your business like it. And if you did, it'd be a horrible place to work, right? I couldn't, I could not employ 50 mini mes. It would just be hell. But you need that level of aggression. You need those people that go, hey, I'm here and I'm going to do everything I can to take the next step. What can I do? And you've got to put yourself on the line. You've got to be proactive with that because no one else cares about your career more than yourself. That's my view on it.

And what does this actually look like in practice? Is it that— and if we were to maybe take it from like, quote unquote, more of a grown-up approach now where, like you said, it's not just like bull in a china shop type of thing, but like, what does this actually look like? Is it that you're being proactive just day to day? Is it on my next one-on-one I can be like, okay, Laura, I don't feel like it's very clear for me on like how I get my next promotion or how I get an increase in my salary? Or like, is it in those types of conversations where we're asking the people that manage us or the business owner that I work for to tell me what I need to do?

No.

Okay.

No, I think it's a number of different tactics that you need to have in your toolkit, and it will depend on the kind of business that you're in, right? So for me, You've got your peers that you're working alongside. If you're not respected by those people, it's going to be really difficult for you to ever manage or take a step up. So, you've got to play that role amongst your peers. You've got to be going above and beyond every day. Don't wait for a one-to-one that happens in one hour for one month, or how often you have them. Go to your boss every single time you've got an idea that you think is going to work and say, hey, look, I've thought of that. Can I implement this? Hey, I've seen that that can be improved. Can I look at this? Just be proactive about it. Every opportunity that you have, I don't believe, I mean, we have a clear career progression, right? Because as a business gets bigger, you need to have framework around that. But again, going back to that linear point, there are really good leaders that will never hit the middle tier of billing because they're actually better leaders than they are salespeople. And there are really good salespeople that should never manage or lead a team. So you have to play to your strengths as a leader and have someone who is equally invested in your career as you are in your business that can help you along that way. So I don't think it's a, okay, this is what you should do. You should just be proactive about it and thinking about it in everything you do every day.

Yeah, I mean, there isn't, I don't know how you feel about this, but when even if it's a rubbish idea or you don't even agree with the idea, having someone in your team come up to you and go, I thought about this, what do you think? It's just such a good— it's just so good to see that. Yeah, it actually is, because I agree with you, it probably— it doesn't happen maybe as much as managers would like to or leaders would like to, but when it happens, it definitely is something that you're like, I love that, I really appreciate that.

Yeah, and I think there's also, for me, like, there's this type of person— you must have met these, right? So there's people that come to you and say there's a problem, and they might give you some ideas on a solution. Or you get people that say, there's an opportunity and this is what I'm gonna do about it. And there's a difference between someone who moans and thinks they're coming up with an idea, or someone who actually just gets things moving. Whether it's not in the exact right direction you should be going, but it could be, I don't know, I've just been to a new client and they don't like the way that we price our perm placements. This other agency does this. I've actually pitched them this. I hope you don't mind. You might get in trouble for it. But risk it. Do something that is outside the box and don't wait for someone else to authorise it. Or there's a saying that I have within my leadership team, and there's a lady that works for me that I've worked with for 16 years, a really long time, maybe slightly less. And she, I used to teach her this, it was never ask for authority, only beg me for forgiveness. So when you do something wrong, come and tell me and apologise for it. Don't ask me whether you think it's a good idea. Go and try it and then come to me when it works and tell me how great it was. And there are big businesses where there's framework and you're not able to do that. But if you are someone who's a bit of a maverick like I was, get yourself in a place where someone fosters that energy and those, those ideas and allows you to have a bit of, the barriers aren't so strict on you because that's how I think you push a business forward is that innovation and allowing people to play with it.

Yeah, I think that is the massive positive of career-wise if you're in a startup scale-up. Yeah, 100%, like, lesser established environment.

Yeah.

And that's down to you on how much you capitalize on that. Like, I— yeah, I'm completely with you because I, I was definitely— when I think of when I was employed in recruitment and then I worked— when I worked at, um, Huxo, I was definitely that person as well. Like, this came up with ideas I always remember I forced my old recruitment boss to get in front of a camera because I really believe in this content stuff. Yeah, he hated it. But like, yeah, it's so— it's down to you how much you capitalize on that.

Completely.

And then I think if you're listening to this and you're that person and every time you do that you're being suppressed, and it's like, then go. Yeah, 100%, leave. Yeah. Okay, we had to acknowledge that because like I said, you wouldn't have— even though it wasn't linear, even though we sort of broke it down in that way, you was obviously someone that was always pushing for more and figuring out what do I need to do, how can I get here. So before we start getting into the detail of this MBO stuff, like a big part of this story is that this, this business was run and launched by your mum. So like, let's just talk about this because I'm just gonna go a bit direct.

Come on, come for me.

Because Yeah, I think you said to me on our prep, there's still people in— I don't know if it's true, but there's still people that don't know that my mum runs a business, right? So, you know, people I guess will assume, or what you wanted to avoid being a perception, was Laura got handed this, or Laura got an easy ride. And I'm sure that's probably something you've had to deal with a lot more with on your journey.

Yeah.

So just, just tell us a bit about this dynamic then. Like, how, how do we even get near getting to the point where you're taking over your mum's business? Yeah, I don't know, just tell us a bit about this sort of work relationship, personal relationship.

Yeah, so she started, founded the business 30 years ago next year, so it's her 30th, the business's 30th anniversary next year. In '95, she started the business, and she was a single parent So I watched her start the business, become really successful. I joined the business in 2008 after promising her that I was gonna go to university, which I had zero intentions of doing, like zero. And I remember I literally got the Yellow Pages and just started dialling. And my first deal was actually with a client that soon went bust. That was a really weird placement. I placed a police officer into a sales management role. I remember it now. And I still talk to the guy that I placed first. Um, yeah, I really— I, I— struggle is not the right word. I'm very aware that people will make judgment on the fact that my mum started the business, and I'm okay with that. I'm incredibly lucky that I ever got given the opportunity. Um, I always had in the back of my head that that was something that I was being judged on, and so I would almost try and compensate with really working harder than I— harder than everyone else to make sure that it wasn't a judgment that was valid to me. I never, honestly, like I was there first, there last, worked evenings, never took a day off sick, like continuously. I mean, even my first child, William, who's now 13, I had 6 weeks off for my maternity leave and then I was back at work. Yeah. So I, you know, people that know my work ethic will know that it was hard work, but there's no doubt to say that I wouldn't have had the opportunity if my mum never gave me that. And I'm okay with that. I feel very lucky and grateful that I was ever given that chance. And equally, you know, the dynamics of mum and I working together, God, I could tell you some really funny stories. I think I've grown up a lot in the last 5 years. I must have been an absolute nightmare to manage, but I was also a terrible manager, which I know you'd bet throughout my years too. But I think what my mum did brilliantly, and I think she would've done that if I was her daughter or not her daughter, 'cause she was an incredible leader. Was harness that energy that I had and that motivation and try to direct me in the right place. And actually, weirdly, now it's turned 360 where she is my biggest mentor. You know, she's not involved in the business anymore, but I actually counsel with her far more than I did when she was in the business. We have a better working relationship because I have nothing to prove now. When she was in the company, I had something to prove constantly. It was on my back. Yeah, I could feel it like, my mum owned the business. I needed to make sure that no one felt that I was treated in any other way than I was deserving to be there. Whereas now I feel a level of relief that I can use her for all of her skills rather than her being a part of the business. But yeah, you know, and she didn't always manage me. I had managers. She owned the business. I had managers that managed me throughout my career. And there were times where I could have quite feasibly been fired for some of the things that I did. I remember once I decided to move our whole email to Google Mail, and I thought it'd just be a good idea to start this thing. I thought Google Mail would be better than Outlook, and it sent our whole company— I think there's about 20 of us at the time— our emails just stopped, blanket stopped for 2 days because I just thought I'll try this new email. And I remember the— I thought I was going to get sacked. I genuinely did. Yeah. Yeah, fair.

Yeah, I think it would be very easy for people to say, oh, I don't know, I think, you know, sometimes I'm sure it can be warranted, but it's just such an easy flippant comment to be like, oh, like, he was able to achieve that just because of this. Um, yeah, but I think not everyone, but if, like you were saying there, you're probably the person that has to— has had to carry that burden the most, which is why you worked the hardest and you did all these different things because you— the last thing that you would have wanted was people in that boardroom, people on— in the, in the, uh, in the lunch area going, Laura's got that because her mum runs the business.

Like, that would have been the last thing that makes you feel physically sick, the thought of someone thinking that. Honestly, it really does. Um, and I think wherever I would have ended up in my career, I was always very I was always a really, really driven person. Even when I was doing my A-levels, I had 3 jobs. I'd work in a shop at the weekend, a bar in the evenings, and then after school, before the bar work, I'd work in a telesales environment. And I was always extremely money motivated as well. So recruitment just was a natural place for me to land because you can just make money, really, you know, especially in 2008 when I first joined, I was doing temps and perms and all kinds of placements. It wouldn't matter what kind of job I picked up, I'd just make sure I filled it. So yeah, I think it's, it's, it's like I said, it's not, um, it doesn't affect me now, but just throughout my career I've just been really conscious of it because I would judge if you told me that your dad did something really extraordinary and you worked and bought the business off, I'd think, oh no, how nice, you know.

No, I think the way that you, you've obviously spent time reflecting on this, but like you said, you accept that you had this opportunity because it was your mom.

Yeah, 100%.

But you know, when you look in the mirror, do I deserve it? 100%, you do, because all the, the work that you put in, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

Of course.

Um, when— so just talk us through, like, work backwards for us in terms of when this MBA went through, 3 years ago.

Yeah.

At what, at what point did this even sort of become a potential option for your mum to step away from the business and you potentially run it?

So I think when we talk about, you know, how I've always wanted the next thing, the next thing was naturally me taking over. By this point, I'd already done all of the roles in the company. We'd taken on a director that helps out one of our RPO MSP sides of the business. And my mum had the kind of the, the dynamics was that my mum was still involved but had taken a massive step back and wasn't involved half the amount that she was. And I was technically really running the business still with her being there at the board meetings and various things. But the natural next step was for me to take over the company. And I seeked many options in, in trying to do that, whether that was to exit and then me stay on and her be bought out, whether it was an MBO. There were, there were many conversations and variations of what a deal could look like. And I think naturally for my mum, I, you reflect on some people you know that might one day wanna do an MBO. When someone's founded a business, it is like their child. The business was like my mum's baby. And so she was only prepared to sell it or for someone to take over that she trusted. And I think the person she trusted the most was me, not an external buyer. Not someone else coming in to invest. So that's kind of how it happened, but it, it didn't happen overnight.

And what was the timeline?

Oh, technically the timeline was about 6 months, but I mean, I'd been talking about it for 5 years.

Really? Yeah.

So it wasn't, I think anyone that's, look, I can only speak from my own experience.

Mm-hmm.

But if there are people that are thinking, oh, in 5 years I wanna be doing an MBO, you've gotta put that on the table now.

Really?

Absolutely. Because I think it just takes a really long time. And I've spoken to people that have sold businesses.

Mm-hmm.

That are founders, takes a really long time to come to terms with the fact that you're not gonna be involved in what has been your purpose for every day for your whole life. You know, for 25 years, 26 years, however long it was. My mum got up in the morning, that was her purpose every day. So I think that the conversation needs to happen. You need to lay your cards on the table and be like, hey, this is what I'm here for.

Sooner rather than later.

Oh God, 100%.

So what ended up being the, But obviously we'll go into what ended up happening, but what ended up being the potential options? And this is something you, you was obviously, uh, driving towards or wanted to make happen. So I've got here, obviously you could have gone down the external investment route.

Yep.

So that would have been, um, getting a third party involved, maybe a private equity firm who would ultimately put a value on your mum's shares or the entire business and then buy her out. And then what they might own some of the business and then you would own some of the business and run it. Was there any other options or was that the—

Continue as we were.

Okay.

Continue as we were or an MBO. And I think the continuing as we were frightened me because—

What do you mean continue as we were?

Like continue with her just being within the business and not ever making a purchase.

Right.

You know, because at this point she was, I think that there would've been another journey of her being even more of a silent partner. But the way that I looked at it, and my mind is, is quite data-driven, is whatever I was paying her yearly as a salary could have been reinvested in the business. And I still felt that on my back of like, I need a time now where this is mine and I can do everything that I want without anyone else. Don't get me wrong, I, I have lots of counsel and I, I ask lots of questions in the business, but it's mine. Mm-hmm. So I guess they were the 3 options when it came to a PE firm. I think again, going back to like what my mum really wanted was, and there's actually some detail in it that I kind of missed out. I was pregnant with my fourth child.

During this period?

Yeah. And so Margot, who's now two, she was two in August when the conversations first started and we were looking at other options. And this is obviously where my mum being my mum has actually really played favours. She just said to me, are you mental? You know, you're gonna have four children and you're considering someone coming in and then being your essentially boss if you had a PE firm come in. And I didn't care. We spoke about how I'm a massive underthinker. I was like, I don't worry about it, I'll make it work.

You're trying to get the outcome.

I was like fearless. Like it really doesn't matter. That was the best bit of advice she ever gave me because having now spoken to so many people that have gone down that route, whether it's right or wrong, and it might be something I do in the future, who knows? Like I've no doors closed for me. I think the timing would've been really wrong. You know, juggling 4 children, an MBO, a business with 50 people, then COVID, you know, during COVID it just would've been, hate to say too much because I like to think that I can do anything, but I think that might have been a bit much to take on. Yeah.

Something that I'd be interested in is, I got here, 6 months of due diligence, 'cause you did really explore that route, didn't you? Yes. In terms of the thing. So, Always curious then, what— a couple of things here, I guess. Firstly, what did this external party maybe find less valuable when looking at the business that you thought was really valuable as a starting point? So going into these conversations, you might have been really strong about, we've got this temp book, we've got these clients, whatever.

Yeah.

What are some of the things that you thought they should find that's really valuable, should give us a good multiple, et cetera, that maybe that didn't match up with their perspective?

Good question. Good question. Well, firstly, I'd say that if anyone is ever thinking of growing a business that isn't a lifestyle business, it's an asset, absolutely go and do, go and get some interest from a PE firm because whether you're looking to sell or not, it was eye-opening. The data they wanted from us, we were like, oh my God, we don't measure that. Oh my God, we don't know that. And so actually what it did for us was put our house in order to now be an asset that we know if that ever came down the road again, you know for sure that you are measuring and looking at the right things. In terms of what they saw that we maybe thought was great, I think driving a scaling business, the culture is really important to me. Like really, really important to me. I want to get up to work, to leave my kids at home, to go to a place that I enjoy working. And you can't put a number on that. There's no data that shows that. And so I think that that's really difficult to show when you're talking to people about the value of your business. And I think what's really evident is, again, I haven't sold externally, right? So there are people that are way more competent at that. I think for me is getting people that understand that, that are looking at your company. So whoever it is that you're going into business with next, if this is for people out there listening to that, if that's one of your key drivers, which it is for me, making sure that people don't just look at the numbers because the numbers are one thing, but there's a massive story behind the numbers and the data and the culture I think can soon be stripped apart if you're looking just at numbers. So I don't know if that answers your question.

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, you might be like, yeah, we've got this great leadership team and this is our culture, how we be describing it, and then you might feel like they might listen to that and go, okay, cool, but what's the revenue per head?

Yeah.

And like, do you know what I mean? Yeah.

So, and before you know it, you could potentially have your whole team stripped out because they're not delivering a number, but there's a story behind it. And I think it's just getting that balance, isn't it? And look, there are, I use this saying, which is like kindly ruthless. I speak about being quite aggressive. Like I am a really kind and caring person. When you choose to own a business, you get to choose who you have in that company, right? So I want people that in the business that feel the same way about it as I do. Obviously not to the same degree because it's not their business, but you have to weigh up culture versus profitability. And that's a really difficult balance too. But you don't want to have a— I don't want to have a business that's really profitable, but it's a really horrible place to work. And if you're not hitting targets after 1 month, you're out. That for me isn't the place to be. I'd actually rather slightly underperformers that have got good behaviour and values that you can skill up to be really great performers. That's a preferred— cultural environment for me.

And then if we were sitting in these meetings with this external party, what were some of the biggest contributors to getting a good multiple? Like, was it the temp book? Was it the track record of the number of clients that you've done X amount of revenue with? Like, just tell us a bit about that, because I think that's helpful as well in terms of what do they actually put value on.

Yeah.

Because you always hear a really easy thing to hear is, I want to sell my recruitment business. Okay, well, you need a contract book.

Yeah.

Now, I've sat down with many people now that have achieved financial events, that have achieved MBOs, where their whole business mainly was contingent and there wasn't contract.

Okay.

So I'm always curious to hear, like, what were the things that they put good value on to go tick Tipp. Yeah, that's why you're gonna get this multiple. That's put the multiple up to this. Now what do those bits look like?

Temp book. Okay, temp book, client retention, client growth, um, your tech stack was really important, your leadership succession planning. I mean, it's really funny because now we have in every board meeting that we have once a quarter, we talk through every single pillar that we believe are the fundamentals we need to be on to grow the business, your market, knowing your market, you know, just understanding who do you operate with, your clients, how, what's your strategy to grow those clients or obtain new clients? I think you have to be able to show clearly I've got from here to here by doing this. If you don't know that, then how do you know how you're gonna get, how you're gonna deliver value for the next step? If you didn't really have a plan, if it just happened.

You're like, how repeatable is it? If I put this money in.

Yep.

How, how are you? Yeah. How are you gonna keep doing that?

How are you gonna keep doing that?

You can't tell me, show me that.

Yeah.

Interesting.

And I think between the businesses, so we have OA Recruitment and OA Solutions, they're two separate sides. How do they talk to one another? So how do we get a lead that comes from recruitment that might need 5 temps tomorrow, but actually they use 100 temps and then turn onto an on-site? How does that journey happen for a client that's different to another business? God, there's so many factors, to be honest with you. But I think one of the biggest drivers that I've heard, you've had better insight, is your temp book is really important because it is contingent revenue. And we really aim now for contractual temp business.

What's that mean?

So our larger clients now, we get them to sign to exclusive terms for a period of time.

Okay.

Where there's SLAs and there's break clauses if we don't do what we say we're going to do. But that's really important as well. And often underlooked because you're just on a mission, so you just, you don't always tidy up what you're doing, but it's just making sure that everything you're doing behind your growth is tidy and explainable, if that's the right word.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. What about then, uh, what does now, maybe going through this process, what does like your data dashboard look like?

For—

because I think that'd be interesting because you said they ask you about certain data points that maybe didn't even measure or think of. So when you— I don't know how you do it, you might not even have this or look at this, but I'm assuming there's something that you at least look at and go, we're in a good place, or I don't think we're, we're going towards maybe a bad place. I don't know, like if there's some sort of dashboard, there's a lot of different factors that you could look at, but what are the sort of non-negotiable things you always look at that makes you feel like I've got a good understanding of where we're at?

So there's inputs and outputs. So we have, we do have dashboards and we have like an 11-page dashboard on Power BI, right? So there's a lot of information in there. So I'm gonna tell you some of the main things that I keep a real fucking focus on is obviously your revenue. Massive one that is actually not visible, but I would, I can't stress this enough 'cause I've been burnt on this. Get your debt insured if you're working on temps.

Like your debt insured.

Your debt insured. My God. Like we had a client that I worked with for 15 years go under and owed us £140 grand, not insured. That was really painful.

Wow.

Really painful. So just that.

So when it's not— sorry, so when it's not insured, yeah, let's get a bit technical here.

Yeah.

What does that mean? Like, you— there's nowhere you can go to get that money back?

Yeah. So we had like 30 temps with them, paid them for 30 days, and had our margin on top, and it just all went with no warning because they went out of business. They went out of business.

Then there'll probably be other money there to other people. Yeah. You might not even get a chance. We didn't.

We didn't. We weren't I think, I dunno how, I don't know technically, but you have to be a certain value of their debt to be able to go and claim for it back. We weren't, we weren't a big enough debtors for them. So get your debt insured. Like it just helps me sleep and be really clear about your client terms. I'll go back to the dashboard, but that, that is since we've recruited our FD, Faye, who's phenomenal. She gives me on a Friday, every Friday, it's my most favourite email, which makes me incredibly sad. but it's my cash flow forecast. And so she'll tell me how much money's in the bank, how much is due, how much is going out, and then what the next 6 weeks look like.

That's class.

I can't tell you how important that email is because for example, on Friday I read the email and I only had a couple of minutes and I looked at how much money was in the bank and I got excited. I thought, oh, you know, we're doing great. Then I read the context and we've got the VAT bill, the corporation tax, and I thought, actually no, that's not that great. It's only in there for a few weeks. So it actually, it's not, it's not recruitment, it's the finance side. But I didn't know any of that before I did the MBO. I just thought, 'Oh, P&L, I've made 50 grand profit this month. It's in the bank.' It's not in the bank. It's not in the bank. So make sure your debtors is clean and tight and everyone is paying on time. And if they don't, charge them interest. You're not a bank. That's what I'd say. But back to the dashboard, I look at client meetings, the quality of the conversions. So we look at how many client meetings people have, how much terms of business get sent, how many terms of business get signed, and how many terms of business then invoice. And the correlation between those are really vital because if you're just targeting people on client meetings, they can go and see someone who doesn't use agencies and it looks great and they've seen 5 people, then they send terms of business, they get signed, no intention of using you, then they don't get invoiced. What a waste of time. What a waste of expenses of them going out, finance team sending terms, that's our process, finance chasing them on the terms, and then never to even invoice. That's just a waste of time. So the quality of the conversion of the client meetings, um, really important. Interviews, simple. Um, jobs qualified, and we have A jobs. So A, it means that they're exclusive with interviews booked. So just some real key fundamentals. And if I take my eye off the ball with those figures for a week or two, I can quickly go, oh crap, I can see a bad month coming now because we haven't got the job flow through. And that's when you end up in recruitment getting into that funny phase where, oh my God, we need to close Jan and we've only got 3 more weeks and start dates aren't going to happen and you've missed the month for perm, for example. And so that's really important for me. We are now tracking more than ever our clients. I did a post about it this morning actually. The best thing, we kind of knew our client grading, we get client reports, Faye's been really good at that, but we now do our client grade them by a letter based on their spend.

Yeah.

And then if we have clients sitting in, for example, we've got a client E, let's just say, I don't think of a big brand, L'Oréal, right? We know they could spend £1 million turnover with us. What are we gonna do alongside marketing to make that happen?

Mm-hmm.

And we talk about it every month. And that's been really eye-opening because when you get to a certain size, I see the client list, We invoice 200 clients a week. Some come in, some come out. Where's the business? You do so much work to win these clients and then for them to leave. Yeah. You've gotta track that.

So it's definitely a common, like, missed opportunity to look at that. Massive.

I mean, I'm victim, I've done it. So, and I would think that I'm a relatively smart person, but you can chase new business constantly, which you do need to be doing, but you're also missing all the business you've got under your nose. So it's just how do you get that balance right?

Well, it's like you said earlier, like a really interesting Again, if we're— if you're listening to this and you want to get to some sort of external event, or you listen to this and your boss is telling you like, this is what we're doing, a data point that's going to matter is what's our client retention rate.

Yeah.

And that will probably not be as good as you, as you think.

No.

Why is that so important? Like, if I can invest in OA and be confident that the clients that have spent money with them this year, they're going to spend money with them next year and the year after that, that's gonna make me feel like I'm more confident in my investment, or part of it anyway, do you know what I mean? Um, what, what was a data point that they made you think about that you hadn't tracked?

Um, remember, yeah, they, they spoke, and actually I don't know what this stands for, but I remember there being a metric called CAGR.

CAGR, yeah.

And it was like your accumulative growth year on year.

Okay.

Because from what I understand, not actually from the event, but just from talking since then, is that there's a kind of a real key time in which you should sell. And it shouldn't be when you are doing the best you've ever done.

Right.

It should be when you're on the journey to do your best. Because obviously in any buyout, there tends to be an earn-out, right? Yeah.

When you're seeing upside.

You've got to be able to prove that there's, the following year is gonna be as good as the year that's just gone. Mm-hmm. So there was this metric and I had no idea what it meant. And I, I clearly didn't remember that well, 'cause I still don't know, but I'm sure people can Google that quickly now. But that was really interesting. I remember them being quite impressed with that growth that we were able to show. Oh God.

If that's it, that's fine.

I'm going to say I do remember there being like about retention of staff.

Oh, really?

Being quite important. And actually, weirdly, not too, not too many leavers, but not too many stayers. You need a good mix. Yeah.

Interesting.

You need longevity, but you also need a level of churn. In a business. Okay, how can you grow if you've not got new people or new ideas coming in?

To segue then from that, like, just, just to sort of wrap this bit up, definitely just want your perspective from, from like an employee standpoint. So what would be like— you mentioned there in terms of things that they find valuable. Whenever I have these conversations with friends, the thing that really sticks out to me when I hear them talk about their bosses and stuff like that, who say that the carrot is like, there's gonna be an event, MBO, you've all got shares, etc., is when they're still so involved in like the day-to-day. Yeah, like micromanaging involved and really in the detail of like, like, why is it— this is like to the leaders, the future leaders who are going to take over this business. They're then the founders, the people that they report into are going Laura, why has Sally not hit her target this week? And like, in the detail that much. For me, from all the conversations I have, I'm like, that, that, that can't be good. Like, if, if you, if the carrot is MBO, a huge part of that recipe is that as an external investor, I'm looking at the leadership team, I'm looking at the succession plan, I'm going, yep, this is a good bet. Yeah, the founders aren't relying on as much, and these people are going to take it over. They might need some help, they might need some advisory, might help them hire some key people, but like, surely that's not a good thing, do you know what I mean? So like, what— I'd be curious just to get your take on like, what are some of the maybe like red flags almost on like, I'm being told this is what we're doing, but I'm seeing these things, how realistic is that, or how far away from me? Like, because some of these people might not even be involved in the conversations. It might be something that they sort of gee them all up and like, this is what's going to happen, and then it's maybe not spoken about for a bit.

Yeah.

They might not have been invited to an external party meeting. They might have gone to one and then nothing's happened. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

What are some of the red flags on this?

I think you've got to go with your gut. I know that sounds really like, we can talk through some red flags, but if you've got a founder, and I've been there, right? So there's been times where my mum will unannounced walk into the office and randomly say to someone sitting at the desk, she's going to laugh when she hears this, like, why have you not hit your target this month? Or why? And I— managing up is so important. Whoever that is, you have to have the— I was going to say balls, but I don't think I'm allowed to say that. You have to have the guts to be able to say, step back, leave me alone, you trust me, I've got this. And if you're not having those conversations, that's on you really. I think as a future leader of a business, not many people do that. If you're doing that and you're still not getting the freedom and the autonomy that you need to run that business for a potential future MBO, I would say that there are some really big red flags in that. You know, you have to have— one of my biggest motivators aside from money is freedom. I need to be able to know that I can operate within my framework as best as I can without someone breathing down my neck. That doesn't suit my leadership style. And if you are the same listening to this and you're thinking about moving into or having conversation about an MBO, and you just can't get that founder off your back and you're reporting things that you think is minutiae that isn't gonna move the business forward, then I think you've gotta have a really frank, upfront conversation. And if it still doesn't improve, then I think you have to really reflect and say, is this person ever gonna be able to let go?

Mm-hmm.

Because if they can't during the process, they're not gonna be able to let go when it comes to a sale.

And also like, what could it even happen if surely that's gonna be found out? From an external standpoint.

Yeah, you've got to be able to evident that, that you have or can lead that business. But actually, sometimes it can be disruption. It's not helpful. That level of involvement is not always helpful. Um, and it, you know, I'm a really firm believer in you just avoid distractions in a business to get forward. Whatever those distractions are, they can be tiny things, just avoid them. And sometimes a founder breathing down someone who's running a business's neck is a distraction.

Yeah.

You're not allowed, you, you, you're wasting time not moving the business forward whilst you're, you've got that. So I think you've just gotta be really firm and say, hey, this isn't working. If you are serious about me stepping into this role one day, you're gonna have to gimme some space. How about, you know, 'cause I guess looking at it from a different perspective, if you've, if that's your baby and you've been running it every day for your whole life and you are now told, 'Can you leave me alone?' Well, when do I next hear from you? When do I next know how things are going? So just set up some framework that they, you both feel comfortable with. Say like, once every other week, I'll give you a report. You can come into the office for an hour and I'll tell you what's happening. You can ask me what you want and be really transparent and give them some peace of mind that they're still gonna get all the intel, but it's just gonna be a bit more structured and a bit more on your terms to leave you to do the things that you need to do throughout the rest of your time. So I think coming from a founder's perspective, I do get it as well because you wanna know what's happening. You wanna know that you're gonna get paid and the business is growing and the, and that person is, is trusted. So I think it's just how you manage that. And if it doesn't stop, I think you have to question, is this, is this ever gonna happen? I know so many people that say, I want an MBO to happen. And I'm like, okay, have you, have you told them that? And how much do they actually wanna sell the business for? Well, 10, million, 20 million, and how much is it worth now too? Good luck, you know, never gonna happen. Or it is, but you got 10 years before that, you know. So I think it's just understanding the expectations of that person.

Yeah, I just, I just think it's from an employee standpoint, like, when that's been what the end goal is, oftentimes these are people that have invested a lot of time into that company, maybe being part of a journey, was one of the early first 5, 10 employees. So it must— like, putting that in the mix of like having the willingness to leave knowing that it could still happen is hard, you know what I mean? That must be hard for people, which I understand why. But I do think you're right. It's like, yeah, you— there has to be maybe a point where if you feel like nothing's changed, you've tried to really manage upwards these things I do think that's like a fair enough, a fair sign to be like, if they're still doing this with me and it's been 3 years now since they've said like, this is what we're going to do, this is the end goal, how realistic is it? I don't know, like it still could happen, but I guess it's gonna be down to you if you're willing to walk away from that potentially.

And you know what's also really funny is the moment you're willing to walk away will be the time that you'll get your opportunity, because if the business won't run without you there go and explore other opportunities. Like, why not? You don't owe anyone anything. You know, like, we're loyal. I'm incredibly loyal to people that work with me for a really long time, but I'm on a mission, right? And my mission is going there whether these people decide to join me or not. If you're on your own personal mission, don't feel in debt to someone because they've given you a great career or journey. Thank them, keep in contact, and be prepared to move on if and when that happens. And you go to your founder or boss and say, hey, look, you know, I've been trying for 12 months, I've tried these things, and we both know it's not working. I'm not sure going the direction I'm actually going to move, that might be a pivotal point as well. I'm not saying go out and threaten your boss because I think there's two different things, but I think sometimes if you tried and you've got evidence and you don't act really immature like I used to and throw your toys out the pram, it can work in your favour. And what have you got to lose if you then do leave and you go into another business that you get that opportunity? That could be great.

Yeah, it is super interesting. I do think, and just final point, I don't know what your thoughts are on this, but at like a really, really basic level, whenever I speak to people about this as well, is like, typically if you have— if they've given you shares, that doesn't really mean anything until something happens. There might be a share scheme that they're able to benefit from the profits that company has, but typically I think that, that, that can also be as well, because look, there's a lot of people that enter our industry that are young, that do well, and so I've got shares in my company and this, and then there's, there's not always that follow-up education on what does that actually mean.

Yeah.

So I think that's what I always just say to people as well, is like, that doesn't really mean anything unless like something happens. That's when you can really get the reward for all the hard work you put in. Yeah, I think that, that's the thing as well. So yeah, I think it's just helpful just to hear how like you're talking about it, because I know a lot of people will be in that position. But also, I do think— I don't know what you think about this, but two things. One, whenever I speak to people that have gone down this MBO route, I really think it's a cool way to, like, exit a business or get to an event. The thing that I really like about it is oftentimes if you built a great recruitment business, you've probably had people that have come on a journey with you, come from all different backgrounds, hopefully earn some good money along the way, become managers, leaders, people that you've, you know, been in wars with, challenging times.

Yeah.

And to be able to then exit that business that you started looking at the people that you gave an opportunity to, to who are now going to be running that, and it's going to be on their shoulders. I think that's such a cool way. I, I think that's— maybe I've romanticized it a bit, but I think that's a, a cool way to, to exit a business that you work really hard on. And also the follow-up on that was, is it, is it actually the more, the most realistic route to actually exit a recruitment business? I don't know, but I don't know. Yeah.

I don't know. I think it's hard. I think that for me, when I'm thinking of when you were saying that and it sounded so great and lovely, I was thinking, imagine just like waving goodbye, you know, like driving away over the hill and being like, I think that I'd always still have a tie and think, well, it's still my responsibility to make sure they're doing okay. So I don't know, emotionally you need to be able to decide whether you can detach from that or not. And also whether you want to. Some people like it because like you said, you know, they're handing it over. Not handing over, but giving it to people that they love and trust and essentially still have relationships with.

Mm-hmm.

So they, they can still get an insight into whether the business is doing well or not doing well and can still dip their toe in or, you know, but then when you sell, if I guess if you sell to someone external, it's a much more cut off process. Yeah. I think it just depends on where you are in your journey.

So tell us a bit about— obviously we spoke a lot about then, I guess, the learnings from going external, looking at different options, all that. But like the route that you went down then, when did the NED piece come in?

Because in terms of having an NED?

Yeah, because I know that from the other conversations that I've heard you have, it sounded like that was pretty important because then there's like that, I guess, that neutral person.

Yeah.

But what, what can you share in terms of what the actual route ended up being then? Because at a really basic level, was it you and your mum agreed what the businesses were?

Yeah.

And then you agreed almost what, like a payment plan?

Yeah.

Over how many years, which would then mean— I don't know if it means straight away you own the business, but if, if these things keep getting hit, then you would own 100% of the business? Or—

so in our deal, so the NED piece, first of all, we've had our NED, John O'Sullivan, for 8 years.

Okay.

So way before the NBA happened. And actually that was a really pivotal moment for my career because he made me have to mature. 'Cause I was some, there was someone in the room that was account, that I had to be accountable for my, behaviour makes me sound like I was terrible. I wasn't, at times I was, but it made us level up because we had someone external looking at us. And so we had to make decisions that all of a sudden we had to be accountable to. The next board meeting he would ask us, well, how did you get on with, this objective or this, and all of a sudden you can't say, oh, you know, I was busy the last 3 months, I did this instead. It really gave us a sense of direction, and I would say it's a relatively inexpensive, really valuable chess piece in your game of scaling a business. Like, I cannot stress that enough. And the more you can afford and you can go and get and counsel with mentors, the more you should. Like, for example, I've just done our last year-end board a couple of weeks ago, and we actually had one of our clients' MD as a guest advisor on our board.

Nice.

Honestly, it was absolutely invaluable. I can't even tell you. And the, the amount of strategy that's come into that for the next year. And then they're not even in the recruitment space. This, this, this person has grown and sold a business, but outside of our space. It was just, I, I can't, The more input you have from mentors, the more knowledge you're gonna get and you can pick and choose what you wanna, what you wanna do. So that's that. In terms of the deal, so I owned 100% from day one.

Okay.

And then the payment was deferred in loan notes.

What does that mean?

So what it means is that I essentially paid for the business, which is a non-transactional, but kind of on paper it happens. So the amount went over, she then lent me back a certain amount and then now I own 100%, but I loan her the money back. She's loaned me the money that I owe her.

Okay.

That makes sense. It's like a loan note in the company. And the valuation came from a kind of combination of where she felt that the business and what she felt she had earned throughout her 20-odd years of career, the external advisors, we had lawyers, solicitors, auditors. We had so many people involved in it that came up with a fair valuation. And then it has to be signed off by HMRC as well. So I actually just thought what would happen was we'd just agree a figure and it'd be a bit of paper and it'd be like, hey look, you know, that's great, well done.

Yeah.

It was not. It was, I remember the actual night that the business went through, we tried to get it done before a new budget was coming out 'cause we were frightened that the budget would change the tax, the capital gains tax.

Right.

So it was about 11 o'clock at night. I go to bed at half 8, 9. I am an early bed person. Mm-hmm. And I was up reading in, reading with my laptop from our lawyer. The papers. I need to sign this document, sign that document. And then I messaged him. There's a guy called Chris, and I messaged to say, Chris, I'm absolutely knackered, can I go to bed now? And he was like, I think you've signed. I'll let you know when it all goes through. And I woke up in the morning, and at about half 12 at night, I got a message from him saying, congratulations, you own the business. Look at that. That was, that was right. I know, that was right on cue.

But that happens on Wednesdays. I haven't been in here when that's happened.

That is the biggest celebration I've had of owning the business. Um, yeah, so that, that was— I was asleep when it happened. I actually thought that like maybe you'd get some sort of like confetti or celebration. It just is such a— not an anticlimax, but it kind of was.

Yeah, I do get that. Like, I'm sure I experienced a bit of that in the small sense in terms of we raised some money for the, um, raise some money for my business, and then like you have all of that hard work, all of the conversations, all that and then the money hits your account and it's like, right, better get to work then.

Yeah.

And like, now the work starts.

Yeah.

Right. So I do understand that you've had a bit of that. Yeah, I do get that.

Yeah.

And then what, just curious then, is there like, what happens if you can't pay some of that money back that year? Or I don't know, is it then, is it quite fluid in that sense or no? I'm assuming there's like, over this time Yeah. Okay. So you didn't get to take on any debt to make these payments, did you?

No.

So that's what I mean, you're paying it through how well the company does.

Yeah. Which the payments aren't linked to how well the company does.

Right. Okay. Sorry.

So actually I would say that if any, if I was to do it again, I'd make that, I'd make that part of the deal. Upon reflection is, you know, I didn't realise that off the back of a really good time after COVID, the business was really performing well, that it's not performed as well this year, but the payment's still the same. Right.

Okay. So you're saying you would have to pay that?

If I was to redo it again, yeah.

I would be leaving. We can give you X payment.

Based on your performance.

Right. Okay. That makes sense.

Yeah. Like if I was to do it again.

So you have to make that payment no matter what?

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

But does that—

But I, you know, the one good thing about, and this is actually in my favour, her being my mum, Right. Is that she's a friendly lender, right? So I don't think she would want the business to go under for her to have her payment.

But if it was external, potentially—

But if it was external, if it was a bank, if I borrowed the money and then had to pay it back to a bank, they don't care. They just want their money. Mm. So I think that's in one, in one respect, why an NBO is really good because the founders have still a, a care about the business. They still want the business to succeed. But equally, you know, I have to be conscious of the decisions that I'm making within the company. I can't invest too heavily in the business that then means that I can't pay her.

Yeah.

Because that's not fair, you know? So there, there's just like this constant balance. We do investors meetings every 3 months where we report to her and we tell her through the decisions that we're gonna make over the next 3 months. And she'll say, I think that's great. Or she'll say, oh, not sure about that one. You know? So, For example, we're just doing a new CRM that's costing a lot of money that goes live on the 20th of Jan, but it's hopefully next year gonna make us more return. Yeah. Because it's an investment, it's an asset. So there's just, it's technical, it's more technical than I thought it would be. And again, going back to my kind of natural style of just being quite fearless, I was like, oh, we'll make the payment every year, don't worry about it. Signed the papers off and go, went to sleep, not done. I, I would be more thorough with that again.

More thorough with that.

Yeah, I would.

Yeah, that's fair. Um, that is super interesting. And what, if you don't mind sharing then, because it might be interesting for people, what ended up— is it over like a 5-year period?

5 years.

5 years.

5 years. So it'll be my third year payment in Jan. Yeah, Jan was the third year.

So let's go into like looking— I know we went into detail there, but that, I think that, that's where a lot of the things that people can learn from, yeah, from your journey. So obviously you've been in the trenches of this, like doing the work now for the last 3 years. You know, like, just curious to get your overall thoughts. If I'm honest, I think I said to you on our prep call, like, I haven't had loads of people on this podcast that operate in like your world.

Yeah.

And what I mean by that is— how do I say it?

Just say it, go on. I can see you trying to work your words.

No, yeah, I was just— when I say I haven't had loads of people that run businesses like yours, what I mean by that is recruitment businesses that have like branches that are quite localized. Yes, that do a lot of local employment recruitment. Yeah, um, that do like high volume. Yeah, I'm not gonna say low margin, I don't know what your margins are, but yeah, high volume, low margin, basically maybe what people would describe as like transactional. Yeah, basically. So the reason why I'm framing up with that is like recruitment is hard It must be surely like even harder in like that environment in terms of how competitive it is. Yeah, competing on price. Yeah, what is your value proposition? Why am I going to use OA Solutions over the other company that can deliver me the same people but at lower cost? I'm just curious, like, just your thoughts on that in the last 3 years, uh, looking ahead. I don't know, I got quite caught up in it, but surely even more so in your world. For a lot of companies it's going to affect, but like National Insurance increase, that's going to be a big one. Living wage, mass, like even more, you're probably going to see that even more in like your worlds. I guess we can go anywhere with that, but like just curious on like you said, you're a horizon setter looking at what, what's, um, coming. Like how, how have you made sure that OA has stayed competitive, has stayed valuable, being able to pay your mum back? You wouldn't be able to do that if you're not continuing to build like a solid business. I just feel like maybe I haven't met enough people that operate in your world, but like, I can only imagine, like, it must be even more harder.

Look, what we do isn't seen as sexy, you know. We're not like these high-tech recruitment businesses that supply these cool brands like Google or whatever. Like, we're not a sexy business, but I really love it.

Okay.

Because who we operate with, whether it's a large global business, and we have some massive companies in our books as our clients, or some SMEs. We partner with companies that really care about their workforce. And I love, so just to give some context to it, a large proportion of our demographic of temporary workers are warehouse pickers, packers, lower minimum wage people, right? And I feel like this is a group of people that are continuously overlooked. It's a group of people that The reason why you are delivering on Amazon and you've got your package sitting in your door is 'cause these pickers, packers that are doing it on time, right? Yeah. So without them, you, we're all, everything, every product has a warehouse that have these people within it. And I just, I really love it because I think that there's real opportunity in being undervalued. I know it sounds really weird, but where our competition and our USP lies is that there are these big agencies that just see it as, I'm just gonna supply 100 warehouse staff. It doesn't matter, bums on seats, let's get it done. This is a contract worth X amount. Where we see it is you don't need 100 people, you need 70 better people that you care for, that turn up to work, that have less sickness and absenteeism. And we drive our whole delivery on just treat these people well because actually they're not treated particularly well a lot of the time. In terms of what's coming up, you're right, National Living Wage increase, massive cost, the decrease in the threshold for NI and the increase of the percent of NI is going to mean that these people are costing more money, right? So I look at next year and go, that's going to be a problem for us. Businesses aren't going to be able to afford the same number of people. So how are they going to do it? And it goes back to getting better people that they train well, that do a job. So instead of, I'll make it really tangible, you've got someone who, I'm gonna use a lady because I think I tend to go to a man in a picker pack. I'm gonna go, you've got Laura who works in your warehouse and she can pick 30 parcels for you. Well, what happens if you paid Laura 50p extra an hour, trained her better, and she can pick 50? All of a sudden you don't need 1.8 people, you need one person doing a better job. So it's about how those conversations are held with our clients around not just how many temps do you need, which is just transactional. It's how many parcels do you need out the door? And then how many few people can you need that are of good quality? So that's kind of like our big unsexy part of the business that I just love. I love it. And then we also have our perm division, which only makes up 20%, but it's around £1 million GP for us.

Okay.

£800 grand this year. And we do a variety. We have engineering, commercial, and industrial perm placements.

Is that all quite localised around the branches or no?

It is, but some of our on-site clients, we do some of their perm RPO piece for them as well. The one bit we don't touch is tech and it, just we don't know what we're doing with it, so we don't touch it. And yeah, I think that there's all these really cool brands that do this cool recruitment that I don't understand, or I don't understand tech recruitment in the slightest. I know the fees are great and it looks nice and sexy, but Actually, the impact that you can have on a client by getting this piece right is profound. Like, literally profound. The financial impact, the culture impact, the service, you know, like if you've got 100 pickers and packers, I was thinking of a story then that happened, 100 pickers and packers and they do a good job and they pick the right stock to go in the box, that's increasing your customer service.

Yeah.

So it's just, it is, On the out, on the out, from the outside it looks really unsexy, but I love it.

I mean, there's, there's so much money to be made in that unsexy, quite unsexy industry.

The margins are a problem. Margins are a massive problem.

Surely that's going to be even, the margins are going to be even more of a problem next year then. Like, like you said, these people are going to cost more.

Yes.

So then it's like, how does, how does, because of all this great stuff that you do, how does our margin fit into that?

Yeah, yeah. And it's something that we constantly have to fight against. We've lost business this year because we just won't erode our margins past a certain amount.

How do you think about— whenever I've met companies, the example here and insight I've had has been more on like the healthcare side.

Yeah.

But when I've spoke to recruiters that operate in that world and like they recruit nurses for the NHS, it can be really hard to get loyalty from these great people You know, you're talking about having great, treating your people well. There's actually good people in here that do a good job, aren't as sick as much, etc. How can we get loyalty from these people when they could get a phone call from your competitor and say, Laura, I've got this other job.

Yeah.

For ASOS. Yeah. And you can get £1.50 more.

Yeah. Really good question. Ultimately, people are going to follow money.

Yeah.

Right, so you just have to be okay with that. But then that's your job to partner with a client to make sure that they're offering a fair benchmark, a fair pay. Yeah. And not just that. So like, I'll case study one of our biggest clients. They do so much. So they do like wellbeing mornings for their temporary workforce where they'll talk them through how do you let someone know if you're not happy? How do you let someone know if you're feeling unwell? And actually just generally, people just want to be cared for. And if they feel that, which doesn't have to cost a lot of money. If they feel they've got someone they can pick up the phone to and say, look, I'm dropping my kid off to school, I'm gonna be 20 minutes late. And they don't go, okay, you're sacked, or just get someone else in, it's no problem. And you get, no worries, okay, we'll see if we can get you a bit of overtime to make up your hours. It goes a mile, a mile. So I think it's not about, there's not one big mad strategy of how you treat your people. There's not bit, you know, we try and get sold all the time, these like wellbeing platforms where people can get gym memberships and that might work, right? But people just want to feel like they're cared for. And that is one of our key selling points is we show up every day for our temps. There's an example actually that I'm working with the REC on. We placed a candidate this year and he was homeless, right? So homeless guy and he registered with us and he's registered with many agencies. And this one lady that works for me called Bez, she won't mind me telling this story. I might get her in trouble actually. She registered him and she said he was just a lovely guy, just needed a chance. And she put him to work and the client said, he's doing okay, but clearly homeless, few personal hygiene issues, right? So this is, this is the dirty world we live in. She stole clothes from her husband, who I still don't know if he knows, and gave them to him. And he made, he made a permanent role out of it. So he's now employed full-time by the client.

Yeah, that's my girl.

That's huge. And now, look, you know, there is some also other really bad stories I could tell you about people that don't do stuff, but that happens all over the place, you know. So I just really enjoy seeing people succeed in a really undervalued world. I like that.

And then curious, and you're talking a bit about it there, to be fair, like how critical— it actually sounds like you've been quite client-led in terms of the organisations that you work with and advising them and consulting on like how can we actually create an environment where, like you said, we have less people sick, they're paid fairly?

Yeah.

Okay, maybe outside looking in people be like, I couldn't do that job, or that job must be rubbish, whatever. Some people might say that, but actually there's plenty of people out there that want to, want to like just show up to work, be paid. Yeah, whatever.

Yeah.

How critical— do you have like a temp care team, or like, I'm assuming that must be part of the strategy where you have an entire workforce?

Yeah.

That's dedicated to making sure people are paid on time, they're being treated fairly.

Yeah.

I've found that a lot when I speak to companies that do a lot of temp is like that care team has been like crucial.

Yeah. So we have like, they're called candidate relationship, right? Um, CRR, candidate relationship resources. So they will look after all of the new candidates and the existing candidates and just build that relationship, and they do a fab job. Um, and It's, I don't know whether I've not had an experience of like any other world than where I'm at, right? But I feel like they're really grateful candidates when they get, they get treated like humans rather than just, hey, you know, can you be in work in half an hour? Oh, you can't, next person. I think that there's just, I think that's the massive gap in our market. But then equally there's a lot of clients that don't want that level of service. We've pitched for business before that wanna have 100 people on Monday, don't care who they are, they just wanna pick the boxes and then they're there for a week and they go. That's fine, and that, that is a, um, a need of a client, but that's not the kind of clients that we want to work with because that doesn't sit well with our values, um, on how we treat our clients or our candidates. You can't impact a client positively, you're just being measured on numbers, and that's not, not what we're about.

I get that. I think that's, that's the beauty of having your own business, right? You can decide who your ideal client is and you sort of maybe have to learn the hard way sometimes of taking on that client who want to hire all these temp workers for the Christmas sale, whatever. You did it, the margin was good, but then on reflection, not sure that we'd want to do that again. Like, sometimes you have to go through that, don't you, to sort of realise?

And also as well, it's really difficult because if you're ever experiencing a business where you need more business, it's easy then. It is really— it's easy then to go, okay, we'll take it on below the margin than what we, we're happy with because we know we need the business. And then you end up being in a race to the bottom, and it's very difficult to get out of that cycle. And this year I think that we've probably suffered as a business because of that financially. But I'm brave enough and hopeful enough that that will pay off next year.

In the long term.

In the long term. But that takes, it's nervy. There's times where I've had like our sales director say, Laura, I mean, she must hate me sometimes. Like I've got this client, they wanna sign terms, these are the rates. And I look at it and go, You know we can't agree those rates. And she goes, oh, like, I've got this deal, it's so close to going on. I'm like, absolutely not. And there were times where I just think, oh my God, that must be so annoying. But I think that if you, if you say you are something, you have to live and breathe that even when times get tough. And that is hard. I found that hard this year.

I'm sure you've looked at the data though, as to like, if we say no to those types of organisations and we really make sure that we win these types of organizations, and it might be fewer. Yeah, it pays out. And, and not in terms of like just margin, but in terms of like how you work together, they pay on time, like just all this stuff around a better client, those A clients. I'm sure you've looked at the data, and that is, that is actually— whenever I'm like learning, trying to be a better entrepreneur, that's something you always run into, is like actually if you want to stabilize and you want to be consistent, you probably actually have to say no to to more people and just be really laser-focused on who you serve, all these things. And it might be less, but probably in the long run— not always, but in the long run— they're more better to work with. And in terms of finances, probably they're people that you could earn more in the long run as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is difficult. And there has been times this year where I've gone, oh my God, you know, it'd be great to have an extra 50 temps out, we could win that account. And then It's not just that, but I think if I'm then to employ someone to manage an account within a client that I wouldn't wanna work for, I've then got to employ someone that's gotta work for me in an account that we don't wanna work for. So the turnover internally is then gonna become a problem, right? 'Cause they're gonna be calling on the phone at 4:00 AM or— Yeah, it's a circle. There's so many things that it affects, but it is really difficult. And our space, the margins can be tiny. Like we can go into a pitch and just go, whoever's quoted X, Y, and Z agency has quoted that rate, they're breaking even. How are they going to deliver a service? But when there's all the cost increases we've had this year, clients just go, I just want the best price.

That must be hard.

It is really hard because what you, what you can't do is tell a client, well, you're paying the cheapest amount, but you're going to pay more of the cheapest amount because your quality is going to be poor. So actually, in the long run, you're going to be spending more money even though it looks cheaper. And you have to have people that really believe you when you tell them that, but we're all good salespeople, right? So people don't always trust salespeople.

I'm sure you have some good case studies and everything.

Yeah, we do.

But the thing that I find interesting in having this conversation, and I appreciate you being really honest about it, is like there's a lot of crossover here in like whenever I sit down with people who are in the opposite world to you.

Okay, I'd be interested to hear actually.

Just in terms of honestly, like it's wild because what still I hear time and time again when I sit down with people who, where the average deal size might be like 5x what yours is or whatever. Yeah, is like, when they boil it down, how can you be different? How, like, what makes up your value proposition? All these things. And it only comes, honestly comes down to like doing the great things well, consistently, service, all the stuff that you're talking about that you're trying to create, advise on, do, deliver, be, be truthful about in your world. Is the same for people in the opposite world.

Yeah.

So I think there's a lot to be said about that because it's easy for us to sit here, reflect on your business, and say you care about your temp workers, you're doing this, you're doing that. The hard work isn't actually delivering that. And I can imagine even more so— again, maybe it's not fair for me to say, actually, even imagining you also— but as you, as you grow your business, there's more people that could cut corners.

Oh yeah.

And there's more people, you're more susceptible to be going, I'll be all right, like, it'll be fine. But that's what you got, that's actually what you got to protect for OA to be still profitable next year, doing well. It's, yeah, but that's a lot of the same thing. Yeah, it just comes down to that, delivering service, being truthful, doing what you say you will.

Yeah.

Because so many people, they look at the potential pound signs and they cut corners.

It is, it's easy to, and I get it, I really do get it because I've been tempted myself this year, right? But I think you've gotta trust the people that are leading it as well. So like the people in my business, I trust. And I think when it comes down to it, when it really boils down to signing some paperwork with a new client on these terms, I don't think there's anyone in the company that would sign something that I wouldn't sign. I think we all talk about it and we all kind of sometimes have that, oh, imagine if we got that account, it'd be 100 temps at this many. And we go, oh, that would be nice. Then we go, it wouldn't. We're just imagining something that isn't real. It's not, it doesn't exist. Like, let's stop pretending that number's gonna sit on our balance sheet and it's not gonna be hard work. It wouldn't be worth the money. So I think you've gotta just make sure that everyone buys in and also you've gotta be open to be wrong. You know, if we pitch for a deal and we thought, actually, this is a great client and it would win us loads more business and they'd pay on time and we could do great stuff with them, the margin isn't quite what we want, should we consider it? There is grey sometimes and you have to be okay with that as well. So, You've just got to weigh up your options. But I know, I know what we don't want to be known for, and that's poor service. And I know we can't deliver a good service if our margins are so low, because how can you do that as a business? So it's a no-brainer.

Maybe you just answered it, but what, what is on the horizon for you guys next year then? Like, what are you doubling down on? Is it just more of the same? I don't know, what, what are you really doubling down on going into next year?

Um, one of our main focuses Is there's a, there's a couple of things. One is GP per head.

Okay.

So upskilling the people that we have. We've spent a lot of money this year on training and L&D, and we'll do the same next year.

Yeah.

And we've recruited some— we've recruited 5 new people in the last few months, which are, you know, we've got to make sure that we're doing— they're, they're doing what they should be next year. That's our responsibility to get them there. Marketing is huge. I've just doubled our spend for marketing next year.

Really?

Yeah. Which is brave considering we should be cutting costs, I guess, going into next year. But I have a belief that with the right marketing team and vision, it's taken me a long time to learn this. You're a marketing guy, so you could maybe help me after this podcast. But I just want us to get out there a bit more, um, our brand to be better, well-known, and us to build communities. I think there's so much value in what we do that other businesses can learn from, whether they work with us or not, that we could be sharing. Um, and so that's one of my main focuses next it is building those communities within our, our, um, area of service.

I love that.

Yeah, it is. But I'm managing the marketing, so God help them.

Really?

Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm trying.

Love it. Well, look, honestly, I think it's, um, just really cool to be able to sit down with you, unpack all of this. Yeah, I just really respect— like, I know you described your early years of being like a maverick in these things. But I'm sure a lot of people have gone like, fair play, like she's made shit happen.

Yeah, hopefully.

And you know, we haven't even— I know we wanted to be a bit focused in this conversation, like we haven't even mentioned— I know you mentioned it in a few different ways, but like we haven't even really spoken about along this journey, you're building a family.

Building a family?

Uh, you have a— like, I don't know, I said building them.

Yeah, a bit like Lego.

You have like 4 children, you know what I mean? We haven't really spoken about that, so I just really respect, like, even though maybe, like you said, you would have back in the day been a bit rogue, but like, you fully deserve to be in the position you're in, clearly. Like, you, and in terms of what you're learning now and everything that you've been through, I just think it's super cool. And I do think this is the thing that makes our industry really cool as well. Thank you. Like, the amount that you've been exposed to, learned, the people that you've impacted, I think it's really cool. So thanks so much for joining me.

Oh, it is a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having me.