From Imposter Syndrome to Founder: Chelsea’s First Year Building Unify

Chelsea, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Looking forward to getting stuck into this. Me and you have got to know each other a little bit. Yeah, came to one of our dinners and then we got to know each other a bit. And our goal here really is we want to have a brutally honest conversation about this entrepreneurial journey that you've been on. Yes, brutally honest, because it's been hard. There's been loads of lessons. And I think we really want to just try and give people some of those lessons, what you're going through, how you're trying to figure it out, uh, and just give people an honest picture.

Yep, sounds good.

So to give people a bit of context, like I always do, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but being in recruitment for nearly like a, well, over a decade.

Yeah, it's weird to think of it like that.

Yeah, over a decade. So started your career with a company called Tech Systems.

Yeah.

And really went on that typical journey of trainee, to then being in a position where then you was basically like leading a sales team, which was winning project-based business.

Yeah.

Typically with banks. So you was with that business for 7 and a half years. Then you left that business, joined a business called Seen. That was in a slightly different role where then you was really focused on developing talent, more specifically people that were working on like accounts and jobs that they were given. Um, and then that's also then where you met your business partner?

Yes. Well, I knew him from Texas, like Aston Carter.

There's also a bit of history there. Awesome. So then started your business called Unify?

Yeah.

So we're getting towards 2 years.

We are getting, aren't we?

So we're going to talk about first year, but overall, yeah, we're in this sort of— we're in the trenches right now of the first 2 years of being in business. And as I said to you, I think always helpful context for people So, um, with your business partner, he gave you just over 100 grand to start that business.

Yeah.

We're going to talk about you being self-aware in terms of like why that's the path you went down, because I think that that's important, uh, here. So I know you don't mind me sharing this because I know you want this to be better. Like, who, who doesn't want to be coming on here saying they've done absolutely outstanding numbers, absolutely smashed out of the park? This is just part of the entrepreneurial game, isn't it? Because I know if I was sitting in your seat, I'm I might feel a bit the same in terms of like, I know I want to be doing more and it's not where we are today, but that's also why I want to have this conversation. Absolutely. So first year, let me know if I get this wrong, build between circa £150,000-160,000. Yeah, right. And then you made your first hire around mid-October?

Yeah, mid-October into November. Yeah.

So that was what, like 6 to 8 months in? Uh, 6 to 10 months in? Yeah, yeah. Uh, mainly perm, 85% perm, but we did have 2 runners out, so there's some weekly GP there with your background being contract as well, which we talk about. And then year to date, in terms of this year, this year 2026, around 100K year to date. And that's been hard. Yeah, I think we said here like Q2 was really good, Q3 we got some, um, wins in, but it's been hard.

It's been tough. The consist— keeping the consistency has been really tough. Yeah.

And then we have one person in the business today And their position currently is very much like supporting on the delivery side.

Purely delivery.

Yeah.

Delivery.

Okay. And then your, your world now is still very much financial services, banks, because that is your network.

Yeah. So financial professional services. So my time at Tech Systems was purely the big banks. And that's kind of where I felt that I had a bit of a warm place in my heart for the big banks. So decided that I was going to, whether it be the right or wrong thing, focus back into the big banks.

And it's all been UK-focused? Okay.

Yes.

And there's a— from the very beginning, I always like to ask people, like, did you think about how you're going to be different? I know you thought long and hard about that. So we're also going to dig into— because you really double down on diversity, equity, and inclusion, and how that's basically a sort of North Star of your business, really, and how that's involved. But I think where we wanted to start was you told me— and I'll let you talk about this and where we want to go— but I think when we've sort of prepared for this, you very much said to me that someone gave you a chance. Yeah, in Tech Systems.

Yeah.

And I know that that's something that, one, meant a lot to you, had a massive impact on your life.

Massive.

So just talk to us a bit about like why, like why do you talk about it that way in terms of like you got given a chance as if almost you shouldn't have been that type of person or got a chance, or people like you maybe don't get a chance? Just talk to us a bit about why you think Chelsea got a chance and why you view it as that.

So my upbringing is probably a bit different to most recruiters, or especially within that financial services recruitment world. So my mum— I'm one of 5 kids, I'm the baby. My mum was a single mum for majority of my upbringing, and well, all of our upbringing. And then my stepdad came in, who is an amazing role model. Um, but we grew up on a council estate called Stonebridge Park. So if anyone's from Northwest London, they'll know exactly where that is. It's very notorious for like gang-related crime, drugs. Um, my, one of my brothers actually went to prison for armed robbery. My other brother then joined the army to get away of like potentially ending up in prison. So I think that statistically I shouldn't be where I am today. I should maybe be in a position where I'm living on benefits or maybe a single mum with 5 kids like my mum. Uh, however, I think given our upbringing, we were surrounded by love, but we didn't have lots of money. And I knew that that wasn't something that I then wanted to have to deal with when I grow my family. So a big thing for me was like going out there, earning money. I didn't go to university, I went straight into like a dodgy telesales job. Um, I was actually then referred into Tech Systems by someone that I knew. When I interviewed with Tech Systems, very like intense interview process, but the person that you mentioned, Subi, she was actually my old manager at Tech Systems. She took a bit of a chance on me, and if it wasn't for her, I don't know if I would have got that job. I was very different Sue, Sueby, was actually one of the only females on the floor, but I had a street twang to my voice. There was a bit of a conversation about, do you think you're going to knock the street out of her? Like, I wasn't the normal hire, and I do believe that if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have got that job. Working there allowed me to earn a lot of money, which then meant I could buy a property and I could start to change the direction of my life. So for me, I always see it as it took that one person to give me an opportunity and see something in me that then meant that I could change. My circumstances. So then I'm— that's kind of why I'm quite big on that being a thing for me, whether it be in business, personal life. Even when I joined Seen and started my role there, it was all about how can I hire people to help them make a difference, train them up to be great recruiters. And that's kind of where that started for me, I think.

Yeah, and I think it's always a great place if you're going to go down on that hard path of like running your own business, I think you can put, pour even more energy, time into it, effort, if it, if it's from some sort, if you have something that really resonates with you. I feel like personally, so that, that does make sense. If we can, let's just talk about this for a second because I think this, this might be interesting for people. I think the classic line that you would— I, I definitely wouldn't have been, I definitely wouldn't have been told to get the street out of him, to me. My old manager and boss, but I definitely would do— I reckon I would have been described as rough around the edges. Yeah, that's like a very typical phrase.

Yeah.

So when this person gave you this opportunity, do you like— is that how you— like, casting ourselves back, did you feel like that you was given an opportunity, or like, the— all these people so different to me? Like, I'm— because you, you said you got into sales, you in an office environment.

Yeah.

But like, what if I can cast you back there? Like, what was your mindset? Was it almost like, oh my God, they're giving me an opportunity, what an amazing thing? Like, what was your mentality?

I just wanted to make money. So when I heard in recruitment you could make 100K plus, I was like, well, that's it, I'm going to work in recruitment. Like, I'll work all the hours I need to work, I'm going to do everything I need to, I'll listen and learn as much as I can, but I need to earn money. So when I did get that job, yes, I was like, oh my God, First of all, and I think we spoke about this, I struggle with imposter syndrome quite a lot. So first of all, it was like, well, why have they hired me? And then second of all, I think my manager had instilled so much belief into me that I was like, okay, as long as I do the right thing, as long as I do the basics, work the hours, it's gonna work out in the end. But yeah, it was a big thing for me of like, oh my God, I've been given this massive opportunity. I think I blended in a little bit better than expected because I was very close to my older brothers, so I'm very used to being in male-dominated environments. Um, but I was definitely very different to anyone that was probably on that sales floor, for sure.

And like, again, like, looking back, do you think actually, for the most part, that was an advantage? Like, you might have, in, in that, at that time, you might have thought it might have held you back, but actually—

it's a bit of a mix. Okay. A bit of a mix. It definitely held me back in some ways. Um, if you're not part of the boys' club, you're kind of limited to some of the, the career moves that you can get. But I think ultimately, if someone's working hard and the proof is in the numbers, you can't hold them back, right? Um, I don't know if I would say advantage.

Really?

Not— yeah, I don't think I would say advantage. I think it's tough, especially in banking, right? Because you're— when you're working and doing recruitment for banking CEOs, everyone's like, well, if you're a woman, they're going to want to sit in front of a table and have dinner with you and whatnot. It just wasn't that for me. I wasn't wired that way. So actually, for me to get in front of big banking CEOs I had to know what I was talking about and I had to be able to add value. So a lot of people would be like, oh, it's an advantage to be in recruitment and be a woman, but I didn't feel that way personally.

Yeah, I do get that because you've got going into the recruitment industry, but then the market that you focused on is banking.

Very.

I don't know a whole lot about that industry, but I feel like most people would make assumptions what it's like. You're going to know what it's like more than me, but I recruited in the insurance market. Yeah, definitely similar. Yeah, like it's the, the, like it's gonna be given that typical phrase of like, um, it's just white men at the top, basically.

Exactly.

That's basically what people say in English off the cuff. So I do, I do get that. Did you find— because I, again, I definitely wouldn't have been casted with like, get the street out of this person. But did you find early on, maybe you had this in the telesales part of your career and everything else that you did. But did you really find yourself trying to not be yourself when speaking to people, meeting people, and like putting on some sort of—

Yeah, especially because— so I wasn't aware of that comment, but when I had interviewed, my boss at the time had, had explained to me that there were a lot of grammatical errors in my CV. And I was very aware that I was stepping into something that maybe I wasn't the best educated or or I wasn't the brightest in the room. So yeah, I started to speak differently. I started to like— I was very conscious of the emails that went out, so I'd want them triple checked all the time. And it sounds really straight— I haven't got my curly hair today, but I have curly wavy hair, and I was straightening my hair every day in work. Um, and it sounds silly, but those little things— I, I wanted to feel a bit more professional. So yeah, I was definitely trying to almost be something I wasn't, especially for the first few years. I think once I proved myself, it was a little bit different, but at the beginning I was really trying to like be the best version of what I thought was the best version I could be.

And does it— does that almost— because I, I do think— I don't know what you think about this, but I do think, because you got someone in your, in your team now that I know you're molding and helping— but what I was going to say to you was, does it almost come like full— I do feel like it comes of age as well, where you're more self-aware and you have that ability to sort of bring more of like your authentic self.

Yeah.

But like, now if you think about how you approach work now, yeah, I can imagine it's— you're not doing any, like, any of those things. And but there might be instances where that was required. I don't know, like, do you feel like in those early years that was required, or actually you could have brought more of your authentic self and be more of yourself? Or I feel like there is a bit of a—

it's, it's a fine line. But I do think that when I started to become more of my authentic self, that's when my billing started to grow, and that's when my relationships externally started to grow. And with the business, business that I have today, if we're not authentic, it's called out very quickly. And us being authentic is what brings our clients on. So it's a fine line, it's a balance, right? And I think going into the corporate world, something I hadn't ever experienced before, it was like I was trying to fit into a mold, and it worked for a bit, but it was only when I started to be myself that actually my book of business really started to grow.

And just to make it a lot practical for a second, like, what, what, like, you've given us some physical appearance examples. Yeah, that's easy to understand. But what, what did that look like on like a BD call or a meeting where you would say, I was, I was more Chelsea there versus more of what I thought Chelsea needed to be? Because you've just said there, which I'm not surprised to hear, that actually when you felt like you could bring more of yourself and your story, what you're about, connect people in different ways. I can imagine that actually that also showed in my performance. Yeah, but what did that actually look like? Because I think people could— people might be listening to this and actually go, you know what, looking in the mirror right now, I'm actually— I feel like I'm trying to be something that I'm not. And maybe people feel like they have to be that. But actually, you just said that when you changed it it went in line with your billing. So like, what did that actually look like?

I think it's knowing, it's being able to read a room, right? So it's tailoring it depending on the people you're in front of. So like BD for me was probably the scariest part because you're speaking to people that you feel like are better than you, they're more senior than you, they're more knowledgeable than you. I think in terms of when I started to open up and have normal conversations with people and it wasn't always about business, business, business, and it was bigger than how was your weekend and started explaining to people what I would do on my weekends, even if it was things that maybe people didn't relate to, that's when it started to kind of open the doors a bit more for me. Um, so as an example, not many people go to church, or they may, they may not, but not people in my workplace had been going to church, so I never used to speak about going to church, as an example. However, there were certain clients I then decided to tell on a Sunday when they said, oh, have you been up to for the weekend? Oh, I went to church. It was like, oh, that's really interesting, I didn't realize you did that. And it kind of opens up a new conversation. So there were a lot of things that maybe I didn't talk about. I started to pretend that I knew loads about football when I was around men. Knew nothing about football, but if like Arsenal had played, I'd be like, yeah, I watched the Arsenal match the other day. Um, so it was— and like, they could tell that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about. But I think it was like becoming a bit more comfortable and having normal conversations with these hiring managers who are also normal people and taking, um, taking interest in their lives. So something that was really— I was really, really good at actually when it came to building relationships were remembering the little things things like, I would always remember what someone had offered, had ordered for a coffee, so the next time I met them, I already had it there waiting for them. So those little things allowed me to become more comfortable with people and then open up and stop talking about football, or stop sitting straight and slouching a little bit when I felt I needed to, and stop just talking about business and starting talking about real life really and what I was up to outside of work.

And like that, I appreciate sharing that, that like football example This is gonna— I feel like these sorts of things are like multifaceted, but I'm just interested in your take on this because again, like how you approach your business, the people that you speak to, the people that you want to help, did you feel like you had to do that, or was that just something that you thought would give you an edge? Do you know what I mean? Like, was that—

it's— that's such a really interesting conversation. I think it just happened, um, because that's what I was surrounded by. I was surrounded by a lot of white males, um, and that's what they would talk about on the desk. So it's not even just building relationships externally with senior stakeholders and hiring managers, it was also building relationships internally. Like, how do I make people like me if then they're not going to care about the things I do on the weekend? So I think it just kind of— I didn't have to be like that, but it just kind of happened.

And how— I do think it matters, so I hope you don't mind me asking, but how old was we like this sort of period of life?

So I think I joined when I was 21.

20s. Early 20s.

Yeah, early 20s.

I think that's a factor as well.

Definitely.

Because I don't know, I mean, if I speak to my early 20-year-old self, yeah, I'd like to think I had some self-awareness, but I was still very much on that journey.

Yeah.

You're still figuring out who you are, you care about people's opinions.

100%. You're definitely trying to like figure out who you are, what you're doing, because most people just fall into recruitment anyway. But also, like, I think from the background I came from, I didn't want to fail, so I was so conscious of what people thought thought about me at the beginning anyway, what people thought about me. Am I fitting in? Do people even like me? Do I belong here? I was very, very conscious of that at the beginning. As time went on, that obviously changed, and I think that comes with billings as well. Once you start to prove yourself, you then relax a little bit. Um, but yeah, at 21, you're still figuring out who you are, and I'm in a completely different environment to what I'm used to. I'm around different people, not the people I grew up with, not what I'm used to. I'm not going home to the same kind of homes that they're going to. Um, so that also played a big part in it as well, I think.

And do, do we feel like— I'm trying to then try and bring this home in terms of how this might help people that might be in that, that chapter of their life right now, or, or situation. Do you feel like you have to go through that chapter to then recognize, no, I like— I don't need to try and be someone that I think people need me to be actually. What— when I enjoy work, when I feel like it's going better, or just overall and actually enjoy work more, is when I'm actually just being more of myself and sharing more of myself.

Yeah, I do.

Because I feel like it would have been— if we're being really truthful from what I'm hearing, it would have been like— we can give the advice of like, bring more of yourself to work, but like, would you have felt confident enough to do that at that time? I'm not sure. Like, would you have went around the office and people said, oh, Jess, how's your weekend? It was like, yeah, I went, I went to church. Like, I don't know. Like, do you think actually you would have been able to do that at that stage of your life? I don't know.

It's a really tough question. I've never looked back on it like this, to be honest. Um, I think bring, bring yourself to work and, and bring all of you to work. There's a very fine line between bringing too much of yourself to work, especially if you're from a different environment. I think as long as what you're doing is the best version of you and isn't causing anyone any harm, there's, there's nothing wrong with it. What really helped me though is I, I actually ended up making a lot of close friends in, at Tech Systems, for an example, as an example. And the closer I, I built friendships, the more of myself that would come out and the more I felt comfortable. Um, and again, going back to imposter syndrome, I had a good friendship circle around me, but also an amazing boss that would pull that out of me and make me believe in myself. And then that's when slowly I could become myself. Ultimately, I think you do have to go through a journey of figuring out what that looks like for you. Um, But I don't think anyone should have a 10-year career being someone that's not them.

That sounds exhausting and like not fun.

Definitely not fun.

Horrible, really.

Yeah, definitely not.

Yeah, I do think you just have to figure that part out. But hopefully the message here is you, like, you can get to that point where you're like— because that just sounds exhausting and just not as fun. Like, I'd way rather, like, if someone says like, oh, what did you get up to? And these types of things, versus I'd rather not lie than— definitely, you know what I mean?

Yeah, you end up also just becoming a bit quiet because you don't really want to comment on too much, too much sometimes, um, and people only know you then surface level, um, see it, but it is exhausting.

Because I think to, to add like the tactical element here from a recruitment standpoint, and, and it's quite right what you said, when you actually then bring more of yourself to your work conversations, it gives you, it gives you different paths to connect with people. And at the end of the day, candidates, clients, they're people. And I hear that all the time when it comes to— we hear all the time, don't we, build great relationships. That's not really helpful. It's like, how do you, like, how would you do that? And I do think part of that, part of the recipe to a great relationship, or like how you get closer to having a better relationship, is, is actually, it's always like loads small things, I feel like. And then experiences, time spent with each other.

Yeah.

But if you, if you, if you find out those different things about the actual person, it gives you different routes then to like find out more about them. Then you can bring that to your next conversation. And that's why I always hear it's like a very small thing.

Yeah.

Where, like you said, like you, you remembered that they like their coffee with latte and a shot of vanilla. Like, that's a little thing. Yeah, I've actually ordered your coffee, and they remember that. And then, or then like the church conversation, that opens a whole nother path. It's like, oh, actually, yeah, my, my, my sister-in-law actually, or my mother-in-law is really religious. And then that opens up a whole nother thing, doesn't it? It is, it is. That is a tactical thing.

Absolutely. And that, it, it just made me think of something. So since starting Unify, on my LinkedIn bio, I've put a bit about my background. So at, at my first job, I didn't go around shouting about that my mom was a single mom my brother went to prison, et cetera. I didn't grow up with money. However, that is part of Unify's story. So that's now on my LinkedIn bio. The amount of people that when I'm, especially for exec-level headhunting type roles, that when I call, like get them on the phone, they say, oh, by the way, I've read your LinkedIn and it really resonated with me in X, Y, and Z, or it's really inspiring to see what you're doing. I never used to get that, but because I've kind of put my story out there and people are like, actually, that's an authentic version of her. Bringing in a new type of relationship for me with, with candidates and clients. Um, so yeah, it kind of ties into exactly what you said.

And I think this is why when I, when I tried to understand a bit about you launching Unify, I've got this written down: I'd start a business but not with my own money.

Yeah.

Tell us why, why you— because this is a conversation with Pete, was it? Maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So obviously Pete, when I had joined Seen, Pete was my manager at the time, and we'd have loads of one-to-ones, and he was doing sort of personal development plans and he had said to me like, oh, do you think you would ever like have a business one day? And I was like, oh, I really like the idea of it, but just not on my money. And he just kind of laughed. And my thing was, I didn't grow up with money, so for me, you could give me a million pounds tomorrow, I'm gonna act like I still don't have that much money. I'm gonna be scared to spend it. So my thing was like, yeah, I would love to run a business. But also, looking back now, running a business and building it from scratch are two very different things. I don't think I I didn't know what to expect, but I didn't really think it through. It almost felt like, you know, when you're in the corporate working world, it's like the next step for you. This is like the next job for you. This is your promotion. Not that it felt like that, but it almost felt like, okay, well, if someone's going to offer me that, I'm going to take it. But I felt like running a business was stepping into a tech systems or a scene and running a business that was already built. I think I underestimated what running a business from scratch actually meant. But I was very big on, yeah, I would love to do that, but definitely not on my money. I wasn't gonna waste my money doing that.

So that financial security has always been a big pillar for you?

Yeah. As I've, as I've got older, I've learned that like financial security is almost like a value of mine. It sounds strange, but anything that links into a lack of financial security, I have like instant anxiety. Instant anxiety. Um, so even stepping into building a business knowing that actually this might not work and I could be left with no money, no job. That is scary for me. But when I'm fortunate enough to have people like Pete who have actually seen something in me, they believe in me, and then that's where the conversation was, well, actually, I'll invest, you do what you need to do and build the brand, I'll support you. I'm not really going to do the day-to-day, but I'll give you the money. And that's kind of then what led into the conversation of Unify.

Yeah, I think that's really important to note because again, it is important to have that self-awareness to know, because there are now, if you're a recruiter listening and you have always liked the idea of having your own business, there are different paths now. Yeah, that'd be, you know, going down the route where you get supported, you don't give any equity away, um, but you get all these different things from the get-go, but then you give them a percentage of your revenue for however long, or you have a business partner, they put in money and then you run it, or you go 50/50 partners with someone. There are a lot of options, but I think it all stems down to like, you've really got to reflect on what's important to you and have that self-awareness.

100%. I think like going into that as well, I didn't really do my research. I didn't know what, what was good when it came to starting a new business in terms of whether you do it on your own, whether you do it with someone, what the split should be, what the share should be, I think. But I trusted Pete, so I knew that whatever he was going to put in front of me would work out in the end. But also I felt like, going back to what we said at the very beginning, I felt like, oh my God, someone's given me an opportunity. And my first thing to him was, well, why would you want to invest in me? It was a bit like But, um, yeah, it just made sense. Um, and like I said, I trusted him a lot. So I think regardless of which way works for you, it has to be aligned with one, your morals, two, what's important, and three, if you're doing it with someone else, you have to trust them for sure.

So should we talk a bit about if me and you— so I think safe to say then, let me know if I've got this wrong, if— and it is also a big advantage, I feel like But if you knew every single detail of like how hard this journey would be, like, would you have— that's a tough question, because I think being naive is, I think, part of like— I, I sound like all fairly organic, really.

Yeah.

If I think about my own business journey, like, one thing led to another. Did I know all the challenges that would be around the corner? No. So there is, I think, a real benefit to sometimes being naive.

Yeah.

These instances. But if we, if me and you met up for a coffee and you and Pete just had a conversation and you started this process of like, you are now gonna have your own recruitment business, like what? And I said, oh, like what, what's the plan? Like what, what's the intention? What, what we doing with Unify? Like what, what, what would I have heard?

So when, when I went into this, so the, the, the, the mission of Unify, which is to help our clients find more diverse candidates, that would have always been the mission. Because one thing I had said to Pete was like, okay, if I'm going to do this, we have to add value in a way that other people don't add value. There are more than enough recruitment agencies that work in the financial services sector. We can't just come in and think we're going to take over. Doesn't work like that. So, for me, having purpose behind what I was doing was really important. So, I think the vision would have worked out exactly the same. But my vision for what I thought would happen, completely different. I was like, yeah, we're gonna go in, I'm gonna hire like 5, 6 people in the first year, we're going to be doing a million. Like, that's really what I thought. I don't know if that's me being completely naive and stupid, or I've completely messed it up somewhere along the way, but that is not what we are doing at all at the moment. And my vision was always like, find that perfect balance between everything I loved at Tech Systems and everything I loved at Seen, and find the middle balance. So that high-performance family type feel with flexibility and being treated like an adult, somewhere in the middle. Um, having 100 people in the office, like that was the vision, and then sell.

Um, it definitely hasn't gone that way, but that, that they would have been the intentions. Okay, why don't we talk about— we'll go into some of the things that we've had to learn the hard way, but I think this is— I think it's really interesting that you say that the purpose, the mission, that, that would have always been there. And I've sat down with a lot of founders, and I think sometimes they don't actually think about what's going to make them different enough. Yeah, maybe they don't have to think about that much. Maybe because I think a lot of people, the mindset would be, learn this at Tech Systems, learn this at C, and it's going to be my business, mixture of both. I'm going to take that to market, make some good money. But I do think you have to really figure out like what you're bringing to the market.

100%.

Is that going to look drastically different from one recruitment biz to another? I'm not sure. I think, I think in your instance and how you've approached it, I think it would look actually fairly different because of the particular, like, narrow part of it that you've really looked at. But I think for the most part, when I sit down with founders, I think sometimes that can be overlooked and they have to figure out along the way. Yeah. And my recommendation would definitely be like, you have to reflect on that. Like, what— why would a company work with you, and what is it that's going to make you different? It might not be drastic, it might be loads of small things, but it's something you have to really think about.

Absolutely.

And that's your value proposition at the end of the day. And, and where you ended up, which is in line with your story, is representation of people, or giving more of a representation to people in your sector. So should we just talk about this? Because we can get granular in this. Like, I think safe to say there'll be— there— I don't know if there's two camps in particular, but I 100% feel like— I'm just going to be really truthful here. Yeah, I think there'll be plenty of people out there that feel like D&I is something that people just do because it's virtual signaling, tick box exercise, that they actually care. Yeah, all that. Then you might have people in the middle where they, they care about it, think it's important, are they putting things into practice day to day in their business to help with that? I don't know. They might be doing different initiatives, but it might be maybe a bit more reactive, but they care about it. And then I think you have another group of people where it's like, it's, it's really important to them. They want to make an impact. And this is an area where you've really tried to make really at the core of your business and it's part of like how you're going to be different. Yeah. So why don't we just talk about this part? I've got a full breakdown of like what this actually looks like because I think that, I think that'll be interesting for people to hear. Like in a recruitment process, how you're approaching it, how are we thinking about D&I? But again, if we were to sit down in that early period, I know you thought about this a lot, like, like what, what did this actually sound like in terms of like, we're different because, like, what, how would you have articulated that or spoke about it from a D&I angle? Because that's really what you went down.

Yeah. Um, when, well, to be fair, when we first started and we went out to clients, like old clients of both mine and Pete's, and started researching whether this is something they would buy into and be interested in, in At first, it was, we are only going to supply diverse candidates. We quickly got a bit of a reality check that that's not the interest of everyone, and also, that's almost excluding people as well, because does that mean we don't send the white male from Cambridge? So, our main promise to our clients now is every shortlist we send will be a majority of those from underrepresented groups. So, as an example, if we send you 4 CVs, 3 will definitely be underrepresented, and that could be gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, neurodiversity, a range of things. And one maybe a white male that went to Cambridge. So, that's kind of the starting place for us. The way we do that has developed as time's gone on. So, at the beginning, it was like, well, I always see diverse candidates because I'm a diverse candidate. But then hiring internally, so my first trainee, she is also a diverse person. So, therefore, when she's sourcing, she's more open to finding diverse candidates because whether we like it or not, we all have an unconscious bias. Yeah, for sure. Including myself, and I have to check myself sometimes. So, it's making sure that when we're hiring internally, we're hiring diverse trainees and diverse associates, etc. And then it's also being quite heavily involved in the right groups and the right networks. So, we're quite big on going to not even just the big diversity networking groups, but also like on meetups, like the small diverse networks and diverse groups. Once you're in the room with diverse people, you're more likely to then be referred diverse people into your network. So we're really big on referral-based, like, networking as well.

Um, would that have just been a big part of us to, like, if I— if, like, when you're presenting yourself to companies in that first year, you would have said, like, and this is why we're different, we work with underrepresented people in the, in the industry. Would that be a big part of it?

100%, because obviously your, your clients, that they're not stupid, they're gonna, like, call you out if it sounds like you've put together a company that finds underrepresented talent, they're going to be like, well, how do you find them, right? We couldn't just say, oh, we go on LinkedIn. Like, you've got to have more, more to it than that. Obviously we do use LinkedIn, but as long as you're in the right rooms, you will be referred a lot of diverse talent anyway. And you have to be aware of those unconscious biases. Um, but yeah, that's one of the first things, or when we go on a pitch to a client, is like, okay, so how do you find this talent? Another thing we do as well is we're quite involved with a couple of like social mobility charities. So, we volunteer for the brokerage as an example. Once you're then in those events and you're invited to their events, you're then in a room with clients who care about social mobility and diversity. So, they have some quite big banking clients who partner with them. And when we go to the events, we're around like-minded people. So, you're more likely to then be signed up to their PSL and they actually care about it because you know that they're involved in those networks and groups.

Right, got it, yeah. And then, like, commercially.

Yes.

Did it open, like, you're clearly passionate about it, it's part of your story, and actions speak louder than words. You're talking about how you do it, how you're involved, and that's continued to evolve over time. But like, did it open up more doors? Did it get you through the, like, do you feel like it, it helped, helps?

I definitely feel like it got us in the room.

Okay.

However, do I feel like it's probably impacted us profit-wise? Absolutely.

However, in what— in, in what— what, as in?

So I definitely feel like there are definitely roles that maybe we've missed out on because, one, speed. We may not always be as quick because obviously we've got quite a targeted, diverse headhunt that we're doing if people aren't in our network. So obviously when you've got these big, huge agencies that already have a book of people that can do the job, we may not be the quickest, which then means that they're probably going to fill the job. And then also, whether we like it or not, those unconscious bias still exist in interview processes, and we can't control that, right? So, ultimately, we can give you the diverse candidates, and we can also give you someone who's not diverse in that process, but we can't hire the person. You, the client, picks the person at the end. So, I definitely feel like at times, maybe that's impacted the money we could have made. However, our first year was very much about feeling out. The process, building the network, and signing clients. Signing clients and signing the right clients are two very different things. We definitely had clients sign us that we've not really seen much from, and we know they're hiring, and it's almost like, not a tick box exercise, but if, if the client signs us, they can also say, well, in our diversity inclusion policy, we have actually got a diversity, um, recruitment agency.

Do you think that happens?

Absolutely.

Really?

I'm not saying for me personally, but I definitely think that happens 100%. Like, it's for some companies, it is a tick box exercise. However, what we've learned from the first year is like those signs of like people that do actually care about DEI and like companies that do actually care about it. So first year was all about kind of getting the brand right, getting out there, figuring out what the right client looks like. And then this year, what I would definitely say coming into like Q3, Q4 is that we're now starting to see clients that actually use us purely because we are, we have a bank of diverse candidates. And they also understand some of our challenges. So some of our clients will even say, we'll use you purely exclusive, and then if we don't find candidates over a period of time, then we'll bring on our other agencies, because they know that the process can sometimes be a bit slower. Finding that balance of like purpose and profit is quite hard, um, but I'm, I'm a massive believer still in, in kind of the vision of Unify, and I think we've just touched the surface. And I think although we're not where we need to be I'm excited for next year because I feel like we've trialled a few things out. Yeah. Um, so sorry, I don't know if that's kind of answered your question.

Do you think— you're way more in the trenches at this, so I'm just curious— in your industry, like, are companies targeted on—

as in diverse?

Yeah, how diverse their teams are, or is that not a thing?

Different for different companies. Um, some companies, especially kind of the big banks, to be honest, have like targets in place for certain things. So it might be females or Black heritage in exec-level leadership. But some companies, they don't really care about it, and some have it as a goal instead of a target. What we did see shift though is when Trump actually was elected, the conversations we were having started to die down. So any, any kind of big client that had American presence or American headquarters all of a sudden didn't care about DEI, and it was like, it's not a priority for us anymore. But yeah, there are companies that are targeted on And they're kind of— the companies we go for are the companies that post about diversity. You can see they have internal initiatives around diversity. It's all over their LinkedIn. And then when we get in front of them, if we find out there's a target against their DEI stats, then that's definitely somewhere we want to be working.

And then how do we— like, I'm just being really honest here, like, because I'm not— so how do we— and like, you're just way more in the trenches of this, so it's just someone trying to maybe— because I know all these things are like just so much multifaceted. There's just so many, like, layers to it.

So many.

So where does, like, the line around— surely the goal is the, the best person for the job gets the job.

Always. Yeah.

But, like, I think that— so that's what I mean.

Yeah. That— and that's why kind of finding the right client is important.

Yeah. Because I feel like— let me know if I'm, I'm wrong here— but, like, if you would speak to someone in your network and they were in that community of people and they felt like they got the job because of that. I'd like to think that most people wouldn't like that. Yeah, like you want to feel like you're getting a job because, yeah, like you, you deserve it and you've worked hard for it and you're the best person for it versus— I feel like that would have the opposite effect. Yeah, I don't know.

No, no, it's exactly true. And like, to point out, we're not putting candidates in front of clients that can't do the However, unconscious bias plays a part in the interview process. So, our thing is, but even before you get to the interview process, the recruitment agency you're working with, there is an unconscious bias from that point there. So, our thing is we make it a point to make sure we find you underrepresented candidates that can do the job who maybe might not have been put in front of you by other agencies because it's very transactional with other agencies. So, we're not going to shove someone down their throat who can't do the job. It's like, we're just going to open your eyes to some of the market that maybe you wouldn't have seen. It's also tough as well, especially when you get to leadership type roles, because if I use women as an example, we haven't been working as long as men, right? So generationally, we're a little bit behind. Unless you give a woman a chance who maybe is 90% right for the role, but not the best for the role, but has all the other characteristics that mean that you can train her to that level and she's going to be dedicated. Like, unless we start hiring those kind of people, we can't change the needle at all. So it's finding that balance of, I'm going to put people in front of you that maybe you wouldn't have even seen from other agencies because they're kind of like overlooked, to also, okay, but let's open your eyes to more than just the skills that are on their CV, but actually the characteristics that go into making this person good for your business as a whole. Um, so it's, it's tough, but what we don't do is put people in front of clients that can't do the job.

I might just— and then in terms of the— let me know if I get this, this wrong, but so I've got this stat here which is pretty cool. 91% of placements in the first year were diverse hires.

Yes, I'm pretty proud of that for our first year.

That's pretty cool. So how would you, how would you define, like, how would you define a diverse hire?

Yeah, so for us it's a range of things, right? So anything that could be seen as a blocker to entry. So that could be gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, which is kind of like the class that you grew up in, really, like the social class. Um, neurodiversity, diversity, and also something which I wasn't aware of at the very beginning of setting up Unify, but is, um, age. So you tend to find people that are like 50, 55 plus really struggle to get back into the working world, which became apparent to me when my stepdad struggled, right? Um, so for us, it's like anything that could be seen as a blocker. The challenge that you have is not all of those characteristics, or they're not, they're not all visual So, the challenge that you then have is how do you make your candidates feel comfortable enough to declare some of those things to you or speak about them or go into our ATS system and add them into there if they choose to or remove them? That's where it becomes difficult, and that's where you can't just sit on LinkedIn doing recruitment all day. You've got to go out there and network and be in the right rooms where people understand that what you're doing is for the greater good, and you're not going to use it against them.

In terms of how this looks like, and I know you'll be, you'll no doubt keep refining this, but you've said, yeah, every shortlist that you present, majority underrepresented backgrounds.

Yeah.

Data-led reporting and anonymized submissions.

Yep.

What, what data do we track?

So what our candidates can do if they choose to is they can log in to basically like an ATS portal and they can add in their characteristics anonymously, which may be ethnicity, gender. We've got social mobility questions on there, which is like, were you the first person to go to uni? Did you grow up on free school meals? What kind of school did you go to? Disability, etc. And then our data can— that pulls through to our data, and we can put charts together that show kind of what our ATS system looks like in terms of characteristics, background, etc., and people that haven't put in their details as well. So, we can see how many sort of like declaration rates we have and we don't have. Um, so that's actually something that we send out to all of our clients that we work with at the end of every year, and we do a bit of a newsletter as well. Um, so from like a data reporting piece, we look at that, and then also we kind of go through that data with each— well, I say each individual, but myself and my trainee— every quarter to see, okay, how are we stack ranking against this? Are we sticking to our promise? Are we sticking to our word? Where do we need to work on? What do we need to do a bit differently?

And then like, if we So really, is, is the, is the— so what's going through my head is like, if me and you work together, yeah, I'm a financial service business, I can get to the end of that process knowing that we've got a great person and the best person for the job. But during that process, I've worked with someone and partnered with someone that is probably way more aware than the typical recruitment partner on the unconscious biases, who they're speaking to, they're not speaking to, Which then means that, yeah, like, by us working together, we've actually been able to be mindful of those things, which I guess is a net positive under the sort of diversity category.

100%. And it all stems back to the recruiter you're working with. And that's— it's not even the agency you're working with, it's the recruiter within that agency. Because the way I viewed some CVs or some candidates back in the day would've been very different to the person sitting next to me. But I think as long as they've got the core skills and they can do the job, they should get that opportunity. So we're just very, we do it with intention. So we're intentionally looking for diverse candidates, and that's what makes it very different to just using a bog-standard agency who maybe have in their slide deck a page on diversity, equity, and inclusion. We don't have a page, the slide deck is about diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's very different.

And have we got, putting you on the spot here, but have we got like a story? That stands out that really— because you would have, like, like, that's a really amazing stat that you should be super proud of, that 91%. Yeah. But I think, okay, we may not be where we want to be commercially.

Yeah.

I have no doubt you're going to get there, but I'm sure you've had some really cool experiences along the way that's made you go, this is why I fucking started this business.

100%.

Give me one of them.

So I can give you two, one for myself, one for the— my trainee. One of my first placements into a— it was a banking client, um, it's a designer. Um, he ended up getting quite a hefty pay rise. I won't say just in case the client is listening, but he was self-taught, so he taught himself design, UX/UI, all via YouTube. So when I had first met this hiring manager, all of his team had like gone to university. He was a bit like, they don't have to have gone to university, but I need to see they've worked incredible companies. I came across this guy, I knew he would be perfect culturally for the team, but actually the that he had was very different to anyone in the team, and the hiring manager ended up hiring him. And he was so happy, one, for the pay increase, but two, he was working in financial services. He didn't come from a financial services background. So that for me is a really big thing, and I still speak to him today. And funnily enough, he came from a school in Enfield, which is like an underperforming school. He was on the brink of like exclusion. So like actually knowing a bit more about him, but placing him in a job now that he's still in, and he's progressing in, for me, that's a really big thing, and that's what we're all about.

How did you meet him?

Uh, I actually met him going back— oh gosh, I think he was actually referred to me, funnily enough. He was referred to me at the beginning. So when we first built the website for Unify, obviously we had used a designer who— again, all of our suppliers or partners are from diverse backgrounds, um, and it was actually his friend that he went to school with. So he had referred him into me, and I was like, you know what, I think he might be good for this role. So that's a really cool story. And then also my trainee She placed a technical support person again in an investment banking company. Nice pay rise for him. He hadn't worked in investment banking, but when she spoke to him, she was like, yeah, I think he'll be good for this. He's got the tenacity and the organisation that they need. Very different profile to what they usually would hire. And when they actually offered him, we were so happy for him. So happy for him. So yeah, it's all those little gems that really help. Um, and then when I do have moments, as I'm sure most founders do unless they have it plain sailing, of like giving up, it's those moments that keep us going. And it's also the, the client meetings that I have where people actually care about what we're doing that make you kind of like get all warm and fuzzy inside again, and you're like, hey, no, let's keep going, we can do this, this is why we're doing this.

I don't want to talk about the hard parts of this journey because I know it's, it's been hard. But like, what, just on this, I'm, again, I'm curious, like, what would you, this isn't a political podcast, like you mentioned Trump there.

Yeah.

So like, get out, Trump. What, like, you're in the trenches with this.

Yeah.

You're in a particular ecosystem with, because financial services, but you obviously have a personal interest. So like, what would you say is the stance of like the sort of current Like, how would you describe the current situation or where we're at in terms of organizations caring about D&I, actually doing stuff, versus companies? I think obviously, again, I'm outside looking in here, but I think part of why people push back is people ended up in positions just, just to fit certain D&I criteria versus like being good, good at the job or right for the job. Again, multifaceted, but like, what's the, what's the currency? Like, what's the current situation with it? Like, how would you sort of describe— do companies care? Do they not? For the most part, are people actually really interested in trying to figure out how can we make this sort of something that we're intentionally doing? Like, what's your view on it in terms of where we're at with it today?

It's a mix. So we've had to adapt slightly. And one thing I would say to anyone that's thinking about building a business is like, have your vision at the beginning, but be ready to adapt when you need to because it won't always go the way you want it to. So I was like, I'm going to come in, we're going to do the big banks, which by the way, signing big bank PSLs, they take like a year. Our first two, one took a year, one took 6 months. But just be ready to adapt and change and kind of understand the market a bit. So something we are doing now is instead of just looking at the big banks, it's the smaller sort of financial services organizations that don't have the manpower to go out and do all the recruiting themselves. So it's changing that a little bit. And then also a second thing is opening up to those that maybe aren't in financial services, but do care about DE&I. So we've had to move away from the people that might be doing it as a tick box exercise and actually other industries that still hire our skill sets that we focus on that actually care about it a bit more. So when we're doing our business development, as an example, we're very targeted with the companies we're working with. So we'll look at their LinkedIn posts. Are they consistently posting about diversity and inclusion? Are they consistently posting about the initiatives that they do? Are they involved in diversity awards? Because there's huge UK-led diversity awards for companies. Um, so we're having to change slightly because some companies care, some companies don't give a damn, and if they're largely connected with America or they're headquartered in America, then even if they care, there's not much they can do because it's not a priority for the company anymore.

So you've ended up, what, looking at like adjacent industries?

Yeah, less so. So for example, we've got a I won't name them because we're at the latter stages of signing terms, but they actually reached out to us via our website. They are a very large, well-known pet food company, well, a dog food company, and I think they sell cat food as well. So, when they approached us, we were like, well, would we even hire in the skill sets they need? However, of course we do. They have a head of technology, they have a head of marketing, they have a head of change, they have engineering managers. This is everything we do. So, for example, we're now looking at, okay, maybe we shouldn't just purely be focusing in financial services. Actually, we should just be helping clients that care about Diversity becomes your niche.

Yeah, there's certain skill sets that you're going to say that you're an expert at, really good at. Yeah, but actually your, your niche are— yeah, I don't know how you describe them, but companies that have diversity and inclusion as part of like their values.

Exactly that. It's going away from that old school model of being industry-led to being skill set, skill set and vision-led. So if our vision and mission aligns, then why wouldn't we work with you? As long as we can give you the right talent. I think where people have steered away from it is like, do the candidates that work in banking fit well enough to work in non-banking? Or do the candidates that don't work in banking fit well enough to work in banking? It does work. There is crossover. So for us, it's like, actually, do we look at this in a different way? Instead of being industry-led, we're led by people that match our vision, mission, and actually hire the skill sets that we focus on.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, was this one of, and this is like a really common thing I find, like when we spoke about what have been some of the parts that have been really hard with this, one of the things that you mentioned to me was around just learning the hard way, like when to say no to certain business or figuring out if that client is right to work versus not. Because I know that was something that's been quite hard this, at the beginning of this year, right?

Where, yeah.

Did you end up having some instances where you maybe said yes deep down, you feel like you shouldn't have, then you did, then that's 2 weeks. I don't know, like it can lead to so many different things, can't it?

Yeah, definitely. I think at the beginning you just want to make money and sign clients. So we were signing clients that maybe were on lower terms, which really, if we think about it, in 4 or 5 years we probably won't work with them if we have great clients. It's like, why would we have done that in the first place? Um, and then the second thing was just working on low-value business. So instead of me putting time into business development, I was so caught up in filling jobs and, and making placements on lower value business that actually, if I had spent more time doing business development, which actually my co-founder at the time had to say, Chels, I think we need to change your focus here. You've got your trainee to work on delivery, but you need to now work on high value business development. I think that's where the issue came. I just, I would say yes to everything.

Define low value for us from your, from your seat.

So low value fees, anything under like $10K, $12K, anything under that.

Okay, so value of fee.

Yeah, value of fee. Um, also stack ranking, like how easily we can find candidates in that space, especially with diverse candidates, whether we've got a network there already, or actually we know diverse candidates sit within that network. And then the third thing is the amount of agencies that we're working on a role. So we've signed some large professional services clients, which is fantastic, but they've got like 12 agencies on one role. Like, but I'm saying yes, and it's like, actually, no, I probably should have spent time working on business development opportunities. And another thing as well, there's definitely things I've done for free that maybe I should have charged for. So like, for example, one of our clients wanted a document on Black heritage leadership within banking and financial services. So I've spent loads of time putting that together, and I was like, oh, here you go, which actually made them sign us. But those kind of things I definitely should be charging for.

You've got some commitment there.

Yeah, 100%.

And what is it? I was literally speaking to a fan about this. Like yesterday. I do feel like we could talk about this consistently on here, saying what you've just gone through in terms of like being willing to say no, knowing what you're willing to walk away from. But I think it might be one of those lessons that you just have to learn the hard way. Like, what is it that makes you say yes? Because I feel like people, when I speak to them, if they work for a business they might have been given certain guidelines and they'd be like, nah, fuck that, we're not working on that. But then when it comes to their own business, they look at it and go, well, we could.

Yeah, no, definitely. Um, I think it was, I always felt like to win the right clients, I needed case studies. And in order to get case studies, I just had to work everything and anything and hope for the best. So I think I looked at it in the completely wrong way. Also, I have view of the P&L. So when the P&L is dropping, I'm like, yeah, take it, I'll work it. I don't care if it's 3K, I'm going to put all of my time into it. I'm going to burn myself out. And yeah, I'm going to get 3K, which in the grand scheme of things is nothing, right? But I think at the beginning, when all of a sudden you've gone from working in these large companies where you don't see a P&L to then running a P&L and seeing the bank balance, it's like, yeah, I'll work that, give that to me, it's fine, I'll work it. And then actually you should have probably said no to that because you just wasted 2 weeks on a search that you knew you weren't going to fill.

Yeah, it's hard.

But to your point, when I had met you at the dinner that you hosted, everyone was like, oh, say no to this, say no to that, and I still didn't listen. So I think you have to go through it and you have to reflect on it in order to know that things have to change. And that's exactly what happened with my co-founder. We sat down at the end of last year and it was like, something's got to change here. So until you can reflect on it, you can't learn from it, no matter what anyone says. It's like when you're a kid and your mum says, don't touch the cooker and you touch it and you burn your hand type thing.

Yeah, I do think it is, it is one of those things, but it, it is, it is really one of those important parts that you have to learn from and then make those corrections.

100%. Especially with, I can't talk for every market, but financial services, banking, professional services, the market has been tough the last 2 years. On reflection, was it the best time to start a business? Maybe not. But when the market is tough, you'll just take whatever you can. Because that's what you do, right? Um, so yeah.

And then one of the things that you've really tried to remain consistent with now that you feel like is really starting to, I guess, future-proof pipeline money and future is like just remaining disciplined with the, the BD parts. So it's got to hit 50 targeted outreach a week, 5 client meetings weekly, 2 new accounts a month. That's like what your are they, your sort of north star metrics?

Yeah, I think from a BD perspective, and again, me and my co-founder sat down and kind of mapped out where we need to be and what are the figures. You like reverse engineer, right? So how many meetings do I need to go into, how many client BD interactions do I need to do, etc. Um, so 50 a week may not seem like a lot to some people, but we're still— I'm still delivering at the same time. However, they are very targeted. So a lot of time goes into researching companies, making sure we're putting together a tailored email or a tailored call script that kind of matches up and will hit their heartstrings a little bit because we know it's what they focus on. Um, so yeah, but being very regimented with that. And then also myself and my trainee, once a week we sit down to update that list. So we'll look at, one, what clients are talking about DE&I, but also what clients are hiring skill sets we've recently worked and they have lower barriers to entry. So they maybe don't have a massive internal recruitment team, and we know that we could practically present some of the candidates who are working with them.

That's been a bit, a bit like a big game changer for us as Then it sounds like you've slightly evolved the types of, like you said earlier, the companies that you're approaching.

Yeah, definitely. And then just another thing to point out on that as well that's helped with business development is on the company page we post weekly, and it will either be a weekly post that's to do with an event that's going on that week, so it might be Mental Health Awareness Week, or it'll be a company spotlight. So then what we do is we'll spotlight a company that we're targeting and we'll put in the spotlight something to do that they're doing around DEI. and then we'll tag in head of talent, head of DEI, head of technology, and then they see the post, they like the post, they repost it, and then all of a sudden we start a conversation with them. And it's not about, can we help you with your recruitment? It's, we'd love to discuss your DEI initiatives. And then it kind of gets you in the room as well.

Yeah. Then have you got, have you found, have you, did you go down the AI rabbit hole and try and do some of this with AI, do the heavy lifting, or have you been straight, let's just keep things super relevant, targeted?

Do you know what, it may, it may have been, it may have held us back a bit, but I haven't really explored the AI route. So we don't have sequencing. I'm really against it because at the beginning I want the brand to be very authentic. Don't get me wrong, it takes up a lot of our time and I'll probably save a lot of time if I have a sequence going. But at the beginning, at the beginning, I just wanted to try it out being very authentic. And the only thing we do use is ChatGPT to help us with scoping out clients.

Clients.

So what we may say to ChatGPT is, can you please name us 10 clients at the moment who are focusing on diversity initiatives? They'll list them out. We'll then go in and do the research. So the only thing really that we have used is ChatGPT, but we haven't touched on the AI piece just yet. Doesn't mean we won't, because I do believe that there are some, some definitely some areas that we can save some time on. But for me, it was like, let's be authentic first. Let's trial this out ourselves before we get a robot involved in doing our jobs for Yeah, no, I just—

my, yeah, my, uh, two pence would have been, I think if you're— I'd honestly, I think you'll get more out of sending 10, like doing the legwork of like finding those 10 companies that really match up with what, uh, what you believe are the top companies that you can do great work with. I'd probably prioritize that versus trying to like systemize all of that and then get like 500 emails going out, and then it may not be relevant for everyone.

And with that as well, you have to be careful with brand and reputation, right? Because, because our vision and our mission is so personal, if we then send out the wrong kind of outreach, it just tarnishes the brand, and we just become another agency that says they do something that they don't. And that I'm very, very, very conscious of. Um, I would hate for someone to be able to go onto LinkedIn one day and say, well, these guys chat a load of rubbish, they don't actually do what they say. And they don't care about what they do either. That's something that I'm very conscious of because of the field that we play in.

And has that been, would you say, what else has been really hard here? You've mentioned imposter syndrome quite a lot. Is it like more just your own mindset, beliefs has been really hard about that, like hard about this journey so far, do you think?

I think imposter syndrome has played a big part, but I think what's even bigger is like Even though I'm a co-founder, it's lonely. And when you're struggling with imposter syndrome, Pete's not aware unless I pick up the phone and tell him. So we speak every week, which is great, and he's— he definitely knows me well enough to know like when my mood has dipped. But I would definitely say the road to being a founder is a lonely one. That's for sure.

When you say— like, let's just talk about it for a sec. When you say imposter syndrome, yeah, but how does that show up for you typically?

Oh God, if something goes wrong, there's a voice in my head that tells me like, you're not good enough, you've got here by luck, why are you even in the position you're in? Like, I definitely battle with that, um, and I feel that when something goes wrong, as soon as anything, no matter how big, no matter how small, and I have to really control it. I don't really know where that comes from. Maybe I should have some therapy to understand from my childhood, um, but even going on a client meeting, on the way to the client meeting, I'm like, oh my God, you're not good enough, why are you even going to this client meeting? You're going to embarrass yourself. Myself. When you invited me here, I was like, you sure you want me on the podcast? Like, it's just, it's something that I struggle with every day. And you have to, as a founder, you can't let it consume you. Because there have definitely been moments where I've been like, Chelsea, go and have a conversation with Pete, you're not the person for this. But then I have to remind myself that actually people have believed in me, which means that I have to be doing something right. Um, but yeah, that definitely has got in the way. Even like when you go back to like when you first pick up the phone to do business development and speak to a client I'd been off the tools for a good few years. Like, I had decent shares of tech systems. I was not trying to lose those. So I was off the tools for like 2, 3 years before I picked up the phone again to a client. But when you first do that and you get your first rejection, you're like, what's the point? Why am I even doing this? Like, you're not even good enough. You're only here because you're lucky. That's exactly how a lot of my career has felt. So that's been tough. But I have a good network of supporters around me, which is helpful, both at home and then with Pete and also my manager from Texas, and Subi, she's like one of my closest friends now. So I have a good—

you wouldn't speak to him though?

That's the thing, that's the thing.

Um, so yeah, I can definitely relate to that. Like, if ever I'd— like, I've, I've over time got way better at like communicating to my wife about being on this business journey. Yeah, because I think that's a whole nother thing as well. During your early on, you just expect them to sort of understand. But whenever I'd sort I probably, we'd say like I've had a wobble, it's like that, like you have some sort of rejection or something doesn't go your way. Or like for me in my world and my business, like a company canceling their subscription, like straight away, like your mind can go to those places.

Definitely. There's so many things as well. Like you have candidates at final, they don't get the job, you're seeing the P&L drop. And also what's quite interesting, me and Pete are quite different when it comes to money. So when it comes to the P&L, I'm like, we need a minimum of 6 months runway. If there's less than 6 months, I'm panicking. I'm probably crying behind closed doors saying I'm not going to have any money or have a job. Whereas Pete is like, 6 months is great, but unless we've got 3 months, I'm not going to really stop panicking. So our view on money is very different, so we meet quite nicely somewhere in the middle. So that helps as well. But the imposter syndrome really kicks in with looking at the P&L.

Money.

Yeah, yeah, I get that. Links back to that, uh, financial security, right?

I, I honestly don't think that's going to go away, just FYI. That's my thoughts. I think it comes with the territory. Yeah, I do think it's like part of the journey. Like, there's a lot of things that you're doing for the first time, a lot of things that I can— like, as you've experienced, like, you're consistently learning about yourself and about what you're building, what you're doing, how to do it. So I've almost tried to like accept it, surrender to— like, it comes with it. It's like part— it's part of what it is. The only thing that's helped me quieten that voice, which I'd sort of say to you that might be helpful, is if ever that voice gets really loud, I'll just go to evidence. Yeah, no, because that, that isn't— that, that, that's truth. Like, that's factual. There's, there's no emotion there. There's no self-doubt. It's like I've got a folder of evidence which basically says your, your company, your product's not shit.

Yeah, no, that is, you know, I mean, you'll have that.

Yeah, you will have a bank of people that you've helped. Yeah, companies you work with that have gone, this is a great way of working, I'm really glad that we partnered. Like, you will have that evidence, and like, that can't be denied.

Yeah, no.

So whenever I'm like really up in my head, I would— I have, I have that, or I would go to that. And it's just other usual stuff for making sure like go for walks, your other stuff, your other part of your house is in order. Because I feel like if you're really not performing outside of work, that's always going to impact, like, that voice being louder more consistently. Do you know what I mean?

100%. When I'm burnt out and stressed, it's even worse.

Um, yeah, so that, that would be my only— like, it's not a silver bullet, but I think you're better off going to evidence. And like, the more evidence that you build, you can't deny that. Yeah, that's where the self-belief comes Exactly.

And that's why, and that's something that Pete's actually really, really good at. Even with before coming to here, he, the first thing he said to me is like, remember some of your achievements, because I know what you're like. Like, I always tailor to, but we could have done this better. And I think that's the part of me that always wants to learn and be better. But equally, me and Pete will have reflections. So every quarter we'll look at, okay, what's gone well for the quarter? At the end of the year, what have we done that's actually really good? And again, going back to evidence. So that's why we started tracking how many placements are we making that are diverse candidates. How many testimonials are we getting where people are actually recognizing us and saying in the testimonial, I've really enjoyed working with these guys because they showed us diverse candidates? I think your question when we spoke before was like, okay, Chelsea, like, let's be serious, I went to one of your clients, would they actually say like, yeah, Chelsea's given me diverse candidates? And I'm like, actually, yeah, the proof is in the pudding. We've got evidence that that is the case. So that going back and reflecting, I would definitely say to people, to your point, when you're struggling, go back and reflect on what's worked and what you've done well, and just leave those things that you could have improved on to the side for a little bit. There's a, there's a time and a place for those, those conversations.

Yeah, yeah, because you're never going to struggle to find those.

No, especially if you're— and I feel like when you're a recruiter and you work in this industry, in order to be good, you're always self-critical, you're always trying to do better. Um, so I think that's some of the things that make us great recruiters but also hold us back at the same time.

Mm, for sure. So going into this part of the year, yes. How are we thinking about this next chapter of the, the business? I feel like you've made some moves, maybe some slight tweaks to like who you're focusing, reaching out to, trying to do business with.

Yeah.

Obviously you've got some good examples now that you can say to yourself, like, no, I'm saying no to that work. I'm saying yes to that work. So we feeling, cuz I know there's been some tough months this year.

Yeah.

Yeah, but how are we feeling going into the end of this year, start of next year, business-wise?

Definitely excited. I definitely feel a bit more prepared. Um, we've got a good Q4 at the moment. We've got like £200K worth of business on the, on the table that we're working at the moment, which for us is a lot right now. Um, so definitely feeling like we've kind of found a bit more of a better operating rhythm to find success. So feeling really good about that. Um, also Pete has— although I've been trying to cling on to the bank balance, Pete is like, it's time to now take this to 2.0. We need to hire some more people. We need to start spending some of that money, not clinging on to it. You need to invest in order to get back. So we're currently— I might as well plug it in here. Yeah, absolutely. We are hiring for our— another person to join, someone who's got 2 or 3 years experience, um, and kind of take things to the next level now. So we've got a good client base, we want to grow that, but both land and expand internally in those clients and also bring on new clients, um, and obviously getting my trainees to a point where she's just completely self-sufficient Um, so yeah, feeling excited about next year. I think next year will be a year of growth for us. Now we've kind of scoped things out, we've seen what works, we've seen what doesn't, um, and now we have those case studies and evidence to be like, actually, yeah, we can do what we say. Um, so feeling excited for next year.

Well, the— and I've really started to get my head around this, like everything that you just said there, it's going to be like that every year. Oh, of course. It just doesn't stop, basically, which is actually what I think I've sort of really tried to come to terms with that. Like, this game, this game of business, like, it's— I don't know if you've, uh, ever come across like Simon Sinek's work. Yeah, start with why. Obviously, the Infinite Game. Yeah, that's what business is. Like, we are playing the infinite game. Like, there's no— never gonna be a point where I feel like you are the number one recruitment— D&I recruitment agency in the world. Like, it's just an ongoing thing that you have to keep getting better at. You keep improving. A big part of it staying in the game.

Yeah.

And what's going to help you stay in the game is enjoying it more, working with better clients. And that always comes with like this journey. Yes. It really feels like you've, you've continued to learn, learn from your mistakes, learn from what's worked, what hasn't. And then also this DNA piece, that you'll— there will consistently be like refinements that you make. Yeah. That really then make it an amazing experience, service for everyone involved. And yeah, if you've already got like evidence, we're only going to keep building that. So I think really appreciate you being honest and everything. I know a lot of people appreciate it and have no doubt that you're going to continue to make a really positive impact as well as achieve your goals that you have. So thanks for joining me.

No, thanks for having me. I've appreciated it. It's been a good time.