From Rock Bottom to High Performance: Jack’s Inspiring Journey

Jack, welcome to the pod.

How are you? All good?

I'm really good. Uh, always enjoy sitting down with people like you because it's a slightly different conversation than normal, but a really important one. I'm sure obviously you'll— you believe this because of what you do, but every high performer that I've sat down with at some point will talk about the importance of mindset and, and having that right? So sitting down with someone like you who works now with a lot of times with recruiters, with high performers, developing their mindset and a bunch of other things, I always enjoy. So in this conversation, we're going to learn a bit about your story, your journey, how you've ended up doing what you've ended up doing, and we're going to end up talking about what you feel like are the sort of 5 common habits in high performers. You've worked with a good amount of recruiters now, recruitment founders, leaders So I feel like you've— you're in an interesting position to like share some insights with us because you're working with a select few people and helping them overcome their fears, helping them build the right beliefs, etc. So why don't we just start with— I've got a few notes here, but I'll let you— like, if me and you were to meet and I might ask you what you do and I might end up going like, how did you end up doing that? Like, where do you normally start this story?

It depends how far you want me to take it back. But if I'm wondering who I am now was like, I was completely the opposite. I'll just give you a little back backstory. All the way up until the age of 27, my whole life was just about partying, going out. There was no purpose, there was no goals. I just thought that's what it was. You come out of school, I got into being an electrician. My dad said always get a trade, you have it for the rest of your life, and you just don't really think about where you want to go in life. So I end up just essentially going out all the time, partying. I was a bit of a excuse the pun, like Jack the Lad, partying all the time, drinking, doing drugs, fighting. That was just my life. Eventually it started to take a bit of a downward spiral. I probably knew that I should have sorted my life out for a long time, and I didn't. And it just kept going, kept going, kept going. You know, you know you should do something, but you don't change. One, because I didn't know how to change. I didn't have anyone else changing or someone to help me guide, like, guide me through that change. So it just went on for so long, and then eventually I sort of like hit rock bottom. And that's when I was like, right, I really need to sort this out because if I go on, I don't know what's gonna happen to me. And I stumbled on something called the Miracle Morning. It was a book about transforming your life before 8 o'clock. Now, it was telling me to get up early, read, meditation, and all this stuff. And up until this point, I just had such a big ego. I was like, this is stuff that hippies do. This is not like, this is not stuff that was gonna work for me. But I was desperate, I got involved in it, and then I just went on a sort of like spiral of personal development. It made me feel better about myself and I was building up some consistency, some discipline, and really just felt like I was progressing in life, which I've never felt before. That's when I started to slowly cut down how much I was going out, being a nuisance, and really thinking, okay, there's— there must be more out there for me in my life. So I just kept working on myself, continued working. Then it touched on my career. I was electrician. I didn't like it. I was okay at it, but even that, I got my certificates forged to get on site, so I knew it weren't going to take me nowhere far. And then I started personal training people. I enjoyed helping people, but what I realized is that I was helping people personal train, but then after I was teaching them like personal development stuff I was picking up on— habits, goals, all this kind of stuff. And then I thought there must be more out there for me, so I quit personal training. I took it online. I started doing fitness coaching, which I didn't really enjoy. So then I dived into more of the personal development, and that's when I created like my own program called the B Program. When it was about helping individuals essentially get goals, purpose, build better habits, maybe stop going out a little bit, and just being that guy, um, sort of mentor for people that I wish that I had. And then from there it just continued on. That's when I started to do the high performance coaching, a little bit more in depth, a bit more to it. And then I just started working with other individuals, not just was going out all of the time, but just other individuals in recruitment, people that was already achieving but wanted to take their life to the next level. But I feel like what really helped me and my— and relate with my clients is just that I'd been through a transition myself. I've been through stuff, I've overcome stuff. I like grew up in the environments and cultures like a lot of these individuals did, and I knew what it's like to change because I went from being like sort of like a Jack the Lad persona to, to like wanting to improve and progress and just like getting into, I don't know, becoming your best self, doing gratitude and things that people shrug off and think is kind of weird, but I transitioned. And I think people could relate to me because deep down they wanted to do all these kind of stuff but maybe hadn't, hadn't got there. So it was just like a transition over and over again. Um, and then yeah, it's developed, and now I'm here and I'm working with, as you know, a lot of recruitment business owners.

Has that been over the last year?

Over the last year, like, I would say it's really defined into kind of like working with recruitment business owners, sort of like people in recruitment just overall. And it wasn't like that was my plan I mean, it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna niche down on these kind of— it's just like I related to individuals that was going through certain things. And where I, I would say I hold myself up to a standard where I'm always trying to push and progress, I think they could relate to that too. At the start, it was just about, oh, I relate to him because he's been going out and he doesn't anymore, he's changed. And then it sort of transitions to, oh, he's, he's done that, but he's also maybe pushing himself in other areas. That's what I would like to do. So as the journey sort of went on and expanded it then sort of changed who I kind of worked with.

Yeah, and I think in the game that you're in, like, I have a, um, I have a pt, it's online, and how I ended up getting that was for a referral for a friend. And I feel like if you ended up working with your first client that was in recruitment, you would— if you did a good job, they're going to tell their mates, and then that can end up building from there, right? But I think it's really cool that you ended up helping people in industry. Let's just take a step back for a sec. So that, that's definitely painting a really good picture. Like, just curious, because I know people will be able to relate to this. So what did, like, in that, in that chapter, let's just call it that, where you said you're just going out a lot, these things, like, what did, what did like a typical week look like? Out of interest, when I was going out there, just like, what I just want to— okay, I want us to paint a picture. Like you said, this resonates with people.

If it was, if it was a fresh, if it was a fresh Monday, which was very, very rare, it would Monday, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday normal, Thursday normal, and then probably Friday or Saturday hitting it, you know, hard. Now I wasn't like Friday then Saturday. Mine was kind of like you go out Saturday morning and I would continue and party till Sunday night. And then that meant, you know, Monday hating myself, Tuesday and the words I'd say, I'm not going to do that again, I need to be doing more with my life. But I was so obsessed about telling myself that I'm not going to do it, it would roll around to Thursday I would feel a little bit better. And then I've been obsessing about not wanting to do it all week and telling everyone I'm not going to do it. Then on Friday I'll end up doing it again, and then I'm trapped back in that cycle of hating myself for 2 days and then going back into that cycle and going around. And that went on for years, years and years and years. And even when I felt like I should just take a step back, but I just, I just still couldn't. But I think it was the obsession about not wanting to do it. And at the time, that's the only feel— that's the only focus that I had. On it, and it's such a natural thing to do. Everyone else around you is doing it as well. So it was more like Monday to Thursday hating myself, Friday feeling a little bit better. If I didn't go out Friday, I was definitely going out Saturday because I felt better, and you get excited and you forget what happened last week. So you just go—

what are we saying? What, going out clubbing, hitting— like, what was that?

To be honest with you, with me it was everything. At some times it could be clubbing, sometimes it might pop to the pub, sometimes it may even just be— I live by myself, I've got a flat, you let me just have a party at home. So it was like, it was anything if I'm honest. Sometimes it would have been an excuse. I could— I'm not the, I'm not the like one or two drink kind of person. I'm straight. If I have one, and this one could be anywhere, it's, it's going for days. There's no like— there was never an in-between with me. It was just an all-in mentality. And I know some people like that, but I know also some people aren't like that. So it's like me Yeah, I was, I was all in. I'm all in. So it didn't matter where it was. It could have been a club, it could have been a pub, it could have been the last 3 people you can drink with, and anywhere. It could, like, even if, even if there wasn't a situation where something was going on, I would make something go on. Like, if it was just sitting there having the quietest dinner with anyone and you had one drink, it'd be like, right, I've got to find something to do now.

What are we doing?

What are we doing? Something's got to go on. And then just like creating something out of nothing to make it happen.

And like, and what was this all in, like, way? Grow up.

Typically. Yeah, yeah, where I grew up. But it's like, I can also— I would say it was normal. It's definitely a normal culture and environment to do that. That's really everyone knew, if I'm honest with you. I, I think my— I want to say my generation, I don't want to generalize too much, but definitely me, the people I hang around with, and maybe the generation— hold on, I don't feel like we, we grew up, um, early, if that makes sense. Like, what I mean by that is when I'm talking to young individuals now that I work with some 21, 23, they're like, they've got ambition, they've got their head screwed on, they're like, they know where we're going. I think you get the odd person like that when, like, my age. But like, I didn't start working and changing my life till I was 27, and it would have continued going on if I didn't sort of hit rock bottom. If I didn't sort of take it that far, I would probably still be that person, if I'm honest with you.

And how— and like, how much did this like coincide with like just curious, like, your friendship circle, but also like your work environment. Like, I have— so I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was growing up, and basically I did the classic thing where I went abroad on a lads' holiday to Magaluf, came back after that, I was like, would love to work there. The following year I then went there on my own and did my first season. Never done sales before, but the only job that I could get was selling bar crawl tickets, like commission only. Never done that before. Before that, it was just all the classic stuff— Domino's pizza driver, like working at The Range, B&Q, just all that stuff. And that was like a real pivotal moment for me because I started really crap, but then I got good. And I didn't know sales could be like a career, or that's like something that I could get better at. Up until that point, I literally had no idea. Honestly, didn't go university, but the third year of college I was old enough to remember the days where you got paid to attend college, so like EMA. And I did A-levels for the first 2 years, and then the 3rd year, me and my mates were like, I definitely don't want to go to university, I don't know what I want to do, what should we do? And then we did like a plumbing course, and my— one of my really good friends now is a plumber, it's his business. So, you know, I'm— I know that industry fairly well, or like the type of characters you can end up working with. Like how, how much of this type of lifestyle was helped or enabled by work environment? Do you know what I mean? Like personal— I know everyone will have different nuances and where they work, but I don't know, you can tell me your thoughts on that.

I think it's definitely a mixture. Like, I didn't really go out with the individuals that I was working with, but I know that they was out every single week, you know what I mean? But I knew my friends were out every single week, and I had friends. The thing is, where, where I kind of grew up and, and kind of where we got guided to, like when people talk to me like they got into recruitment or an office job when they was like 16, 17. Like, I, I've got no GCSEs whatsoever, so like, the— even the, the thought of like going into an office and working, that it wasn't even in my mind because it's like, you're not smart enough to do anything to do with sitting down at a desk and the computer. Like, it's like straight, like, get into a trade. And a lot of people that I grew up, that, that was it. But I just knew that it weren't like— I weren't going out with them. It was more like my friends. We did— that's just what we've done. Like, I couldn't think of anything else that there was in life other than going out on the weekend. Like, there was no ambitions or dreams or like anything more that I thought you'd done with your life, but you get to the weekend and you go out.

No, I'd like— I, I— so I had the exact same thing until I was like early 20s. Um, what changed for me, and I don't— you can tell me your experience because I think this is interesting for people because I do think like you said, you might, you might be having that self-dialogue of, I know I shouldn't be doing this, I'm always susceptible to it, I get— I end up making these decisions and then I regret them, or I end up really hating myself. I can really relate to that. What changed for me, because all I cared about was the same as you— going out, on the pull— I was really concerned with other people's opinions. But out of my friendship group, one or two people started to— which I'm lucky, I know everyone doesn't have this— but I, I had one or two people that started to say no more to the sessions, to coming out, to going around my mates and just smoking weed all night. Like, I had one or two mates that started saying no to that, and that— I'm— I think I'm a quite natural, like, um, curious person, and that really intrigued me, like, why they started to, like, not come. And that helps me because then I ended up trying to find out from them, like, how come you're not coming out as much? Like, what's going on? And long story short, they started to decide to spend time investing in themselves, and they were saying no to going out more, and they were spending time on their own development. And that, that was like a bit of a trigger for me. But not everyone has that. So like, I don't know like what that looks like for you, because to arrive at that place and for you to take action completely on your own, that makes it even more harder because you've got no one to like look at, or like no one's pulling you up and going, mate, you know, last week you said that you weren't gonna drink or go as heavy, what happened? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I would say I was that person, but I was that person because my friends and the people I'm with, they probably— they didn't hit it as hard. They hit it hard, but not to the levels that I did. So I would say that they didn't think I need to stop this. Like, they would still get on with their life. They go out, you know, get home or whatever time, but the next day it's just like, get on with it, have a laugh about it. Oh, we can hit that next week. Mom was like, every time it was self-destruct, it was like when everyone's gone home and getting on with their day the next day, I'm still cracking on. And we was with each other last night, so it's like, that's when I knew that I needed to sort myself out. And I didn't really have anyone around me sort of doing that. So I'm not gonna lie, when it comes to my journey, and it was hard because it was quite lonely, and I had to keep— I kept going back to mistakes that I was doing, to my old self, because I kept doubting my decision because I had no one to kind of help me through the process. You might stand for a couple of weeks. I knew it was good for me to stay in and do this stuff, but then you start feeling maybe a little bit bored, a little bit lonely, and then you're like, you know, focusing on like the loss of it. Like, oh, you're going to lose your friends, you're going to be boring, you're going to be on your own, you're not going to be fun anymore, you're going to be confident. Oh, you know what, let me bring my friend to see if they're out, I'm going to go back out. But then when I kind of changed that, it was like how I started changing my perspective on it all. And what I meant by that is like I felt lonely sitting by myself not going out, but then I felt even worse and lonely after I'd been out. So it was like kind of changing my perspective to like, look, Jack, you feel lonely now, this is going to be hard, right? But if you go out, you're going to go out for 2 days and you're going to lay there by yourself for 3 days beating yourself up, lonely, feeling depressed. Like, is this worth just sticking in this and staying in this? You're going to feel better tomorrow, or you're going to go ruin it and then hate yourself for 4 days. And then when I started changing my perspective on that, and even like what I was going to lose— instead of me focusing on like, you're going to be unconfident, you're going to be boring, you're going to lose friends— it's like, well, what am I going to gain? Well, I'm gonna feel better about myself tomorrow. I'm gonna be more productive. I can start working on my goals. I'm gonna save money. I'm gonna be better in my relationships. They're not gonna keep deteriorating. I'm not gonna hate myself. There was like stacking all of these wins and these gains together, and that's when I really started changing my mindset around everything. And I think that only come, come like come together because I started reading more. I started reading—

what triggered that though? Like what? Because that doesn't just happen.

It was the, it was the, it was the, the books that I was reading. Because I never read up until that point.

I read— did someone give you a book?

Yes, The Miracle Morning. Someone give me the book, and funny enough, it was my ex-girlfriend.

And that's interesting.

Yes. And, and we was together, and she obviously seen me how I was, but she said— recommend— I don't know if she recommended it, she give it to me, whatever. But then it's— we, we didn't stay together, but it's like she's the one that helped me by giving me that book. And then I started to change quite a lot and then sort of broke away from the relationship for whatever reason. But then after that book, that's when I started getting obsessed, because up until that point I'd never read before. Even like self-awareness, I was very— I was not self-aware. I sort of like, from the age of 26 to like 27, 27 and a half, 28, is like I had to spend 2 years just like getting myself up to a, a standard of like, you've got self-awareness, you've built better habits. Like I almost like schooled myself for 2 years before even thinking about what should I do with my life. Does that make sense? Like I had to just sort of like work on my own faults my beliefs and understand where all these things come from. Went therapy quite a lot, and that's when I really started to become self-aware and change the way. But before that, there was like, I was just unconscious, and I was just like bulldozing, like, yeah, just going like, like what you said about you had— even if I had not people around me doing better than me, like I did, or I'd see people that we knew that was quite successful at the age of 27, but never in my mind did I think, what are they doing to be successful? Like, it just— I didn't think that was a possibility for me, like, at all. I just wasn't aware.

There was like no conscious fault No, I, I feel like there would be a lot of people out there that might have just had that nudge, whatever that looks like, whether that be someone giving you a book or like me having friends maybe breaking up from the friendship group and me finding out why. Like, some typically— that's what I wanted to, to ask, like, who helped you maybe just give you a slight push in that direction? And then you've obviously just taken it, you've then gone down that, that path yourself, and one thing's led to another. But I'd like to think hopefully in today's world— that's why I just, I love podcasts personally, I love hosting one— but I think in today's world there's so many great podcasts out there where you can get that guidance or different perspective or learn from people that maybe you're not able to get from your friendship, current friendship group, if you feel like you're going in a different direction. But just because I think people can relate to this, where I think it's really common for someone to maybe feel like they're changing, to maybe feel like maybe I want to start making different decisions. I don't want to always end up in the pub doing this. I like the idea of bettering myself, wanting to have better habits, but when I look around, none of my friends really talk about that, or it doesn't really seem important to them. So would you mind sharing when you was going through that period like, what did that actually feel like when you felt like you was missing out?

Or—

because that, that does take courage, I feel like, and there is a sacrifice where people might start going, yeah, what's going on with Jack? Like, he's not coming out anymore. You have to deal with that, other people's opinions. It is a hard period, that. So then, if you've got anything to share there that you feel like might be helpful for people that might be in that, that position now.

Definitely. I feel like when I was doing it there wasn't much else that I could focus on. And what I mean by that, even when it was like— and this is not saying like if even if it's just going sober, but I mean like for me, even when I wanted to go sober, it wasn't, it wasn't normal. I remember getting laughed at when I mentioned I was going sober, but I was looking on the internet like celebrities that have gone sober, and I'm like, I can't wait to relate to this person. So when it comes to like my journey of like breaking away from people and changing, there wasn't much that I could focus on. It was just like, you have to just— you know, if you go back to who you was, you're going to be 100 times worse than anything that you're feeling right now. So it doesn't matter if you're bored, you're lonely, all of this stuff, you just have to get on with it because going back is going to be 10 times worse. That was like a big, big thing that just stuck in my mind all of the time. And it was lonely, it was boring, there was so much. But on the other side of it, it was very rewarding that I felt like I was keeping true to my word, which before I'd never done. And at the start of it, it's the hardest. But if you keep going through it, you start to build strength. And when I started to build strength, I started to feel more confident because I was sticking to my word all the time. And as I got through it, it got so much easier. But that was my journey with it. But I don't feel like it needs to be that hard as what I was, because I feel like there's so much stuff now, whether that's— if it was like a sobriety thing, like if I went sober now there's so much— there's like, there's communities, there's podcasts talking about it. It's getting pretty normal when it comes to that side of thing. Or people want to grow and expand. That's one of the reasons that I've put like my community together, to give essentially people, um, what I never had. That's one of the big purposes behind it, because there's like— I believe there's like groups of individuals, and there's always like one or two that maybe do want to break away, but they end up— they don't because it's not normal to break away. But I feel like now there's so much more that people can do to interact and get around other individuals that want to grow. It's just them being courageous enough to say, you know what, I need to, I need to do this for myself.

So just, just curious then, like, that— and obviously this isn't about pointing at your friends and saying it's like their fault, right? But it's more about the—

we—

everyone's on their own journey, but you know, they're— as you go on this journey, there's different things that become more important to you. Your values change 100%. And I'm sure you've seen that even more since you've become a dad as well, right? Like, I can definitely imagine that happening. But just curious to hear this in terms of when you start to feel those things and you started to make those decisions, spend more time on yourself, personal development, how many of those— maybe like your initial friendship group who you'd say, yeah, they'd always be up for a drink, we'd always end up out with each other— like, how many of those people you still mates with?

I would, I would say not a lot. Yeah, it's not that we've not fell out completely. There's The thing is, there's different groups with different people. Like, some people got like 10 mates that they've always been friends with. I've got like— I had a friend there, friend there, friend there, friend there, then we'd come together. But that mate's got his group, that mate's got his group, so we're kind of sporadic. So it was a bit different for me, I would say, because it wasn't like we're all always locked in, you know. Couple people I don't talk to as much anymore, but it's not like there's no problems there with it, you know. And I'm, and I'm okay with that. It's like, we are mates and we've been mates, but that doesn't mean that we always have to be best mates because now we've got different interests. Like, I think it's just the case of no one wants to let go, um, of the normal, of the comfort, whereas I'm happy to like go through this phase where maybe I don't talk to everyone that I've talked to no more, but I want to grow and I want to get somewhere. And by doing that, you're going to have to go through a stage where maybe you're bored, you're lonely, there's not much to do, and you may lose friends. You have to let go of certain things to get to that next stage in your life, whether that is friends. Me was having— what's kept me trapped in a cycle for so was like not wanting to let go of my old self. I built up such a persona of like Jack the Lad, very ego-ish, and it was like I didn't let that go for ages. Because I didn't let that go, I always went back to that person. And as soon as I sort of cut ties with that and I was like, no, I want to be this person that I want to be, that's when my life started to change. But one thing I want to touch on is that middle phase there. If you— to break away from friends, to break away from all the bad things that you may be doing that you don't want to do no more, you have to have something else to focus on. That's the most important thing that got me through the whole transition, which I'd love to mention, is like when I just said I'm— I want to break away from what I've been doing, but I didn't have a plan. I would sit there on the weekend, look at my phone, see everyone partying and stuff, and think, so why am I sitting indoors? Like, why am I sitting indoors? There's nothing on telly, I'm bored out my head, let me just like fucking go out. It's only when I honestly started like creating purpose for my life and really working on myself and understanding like who I wanted to be in life what goals I would love to achieve, what like life would I like to create. And then I kind of like backed it with a why of like, why am I even doing this? That's when everything started shifting because I knew what I was focused on is more important than anything else. And at the first I didn't believe in myself, but I just took action. And as I started to keep my word more, I then started thinking, oh shit, I think I can, I think I can do something with my life. And that became more rewarding for me, seeing progress with that, than than going back and doing all of this stuff, um, that I would have been doing. And I think if you can get that in your life, letting go of friends, letting go of bad habits, letting go of old routines, behaviors, it becomes easier. It becomes so much easier.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Like, yeah, just saying no and like not seeing your friends more, but then not having something else to focus on. I think that that's such a good point. I don't know what you think about this. This has always been I've been quite fortunate in my friendship group that I've got— that there's like 4 or 5 of us, really good mates. We're all on our own different paths, live in different parts of the world, but what I'm really grateful for is that we sort of all ended up going on this sort of personal development journey along like a similar timeline. And I know not everyone is fortunate to have that. So my sort of barometer really of like having friends is that if someone is a good friend, I should walk away from spending time with them feeling energized, feeling uplifted, just feeling like that person wants me to succeed, wants like the best for me. And I think even like thinking about like my wife and her— generally sometimes our mates is like— sometimes I think a good barometer for this is that like if you walk away with time with friends and you feel like I don't feel any better. I actually feel worse. I feel like— I feel drained almost. I feel like, yeah, I ended up then making decisions that I'm not proud of, or ends up getting back to the person that I'm trying to actually evolve from. I don't know what you think about that, but that's been like a really simple barometer for me. So whenever— I'm all about quality over quantity when it comes to like friends, and I think whenever I've then made new relationships with people and the ones that have like I've kept, it's because every time we get away from spending time with each other, like, we're both energized, we're like both uplifted.

Which I think— which I think it— to get the— a, what you said, coming away from people is rare, and that's the honest truth. I think it's rare to have like mates— maybe like maybe if you meet new people you're gonna have that more, I think. And I don't know if I'm generalizing here, but if you've grown up with people from the age of young to up, I think it's going to be rare that you all stay the same. You all want great things in life, you all want to keep pushing, and you all come away and supporting each other. I haven't seen it.

Yeah, no, definitely. That's why I'm super great.

I haven't, I haven't seen it, and I think it's good if you've got that, you want to keep them. Like, this is, this is, this is— and, and when you let go of stuff, it gets easier. I had a friend that me and was friends with since I was 13 to the age I was 27. I lived with him for 4 years. We was like best mates, like together all of the time. There'd be a couple of little instances where when I was in transition into like me changing, um, into who like I felt proud of myself. I wasn't going out as much enough. I felt like I was really like improving in my life. And then he said a couple of other things. He said a couple things about me too, like one of my friends, and it wasn't like nothing like malicious. It was, but it wasn't. Does that make sense? It was just a couple of things, and I thought, I'm gonna let— it's okay with that. And then the final straw, he said something where it's like, I don't want that at my engagement party. Don't want that meaning he don't want me, um, causing trouble, causing the scene. But I got past that person, so I was a bit pissed off that he was still holding me to that person. And then I just blocked him, I deleted his number. And then my other friend said, you know, Jack's gonna hold you. I said, let him know his number's deleted, um, never to contact me again.

In fair respect, how did you feel when you did that?

That was it, I didn't give a shit. Obviously I could have sat there and thought, I just lost my— you think about all of that stuff. But I thought, if this person doesn't want to push me, this person doesn't want me to grow now, he's not going to want me to in the future. And once I let go of that, I was like, well, that's it. I'm happy to do that with anything and anyone that doesn't want to see me win or grow or just even support me. It's not even about like about having my needs met. It's just like, like we said, you don't want to come away from people thinking like, oh 'Fuck you, no, he's putting me down,' or like, 'He's talking behind my back,' and things like that. So, and if you do these things, if you let go of these things, at the start it's hard, but the more you do them, the easier it becomes. Because there is people out there that will support you, that will bring you up. And it's common to see like people that you don't really know support and praise you all of the time. And I think that's what people want. They want to feel, you know, supported. They want to feel that people have got their back. I think we all want that in some respect. And if you're not getting that and you feel worse when you come away from people, these people are not worth being in your life.

Interesting. Before we get into the, the like common habits and a few other bits, just interested to hear your thoughts on this because clearly you had to really focus on this to keep becoming the version that you're proud of. What— how do we feel about this relationship with personal development sometimes being like negative or like hard? I'll give you an example, something that I struggle with I'm— I want to be the best version of myself. I'm big into mind development. I always want to be learning, improving. But what that sometimes means is— what I struggle with is then relaxing, not being hard on myself. And I've got better at it, but sometimes I have really bad days of it where I'll have like free time and then instantly my head's like, think of all the work and stuff you can do. And then you get to that free time.

Yes.

And then you like got this, just this battle of like, you should be doing work, but no, I should relax. And then it can be hard, can't it, to get that? I don't know what you feel about that, but yeah, I can—

I know exactly the time is— I tried doing it last weekend. You're gonna lay there, you're gonna watch that TV film. And I was watching like— I even like want to grow so much, I was like, right, put a film on. What should you watch? I'll watch Steve Jobs film. And I'm watching it and I've got a book and a notepad like writing down. And when it was finished, I was like, right, what should I do next? Should I have another coffee? Should I do this, do this? One thing that's helped me with that is like, one, one, making sure that my plan's solid, and when I execute my plan, be happy with that. What I mean by that is productivity to me is like having a solid plan in place each day, each week, and if I show up and I execute on that plan, I can get to the end of the day like, okay, day's done. I don't need to fill my time with busyness because I've achieved— I've done what I set out to do. And the other side of that is But blocking in time to rest— what I mean, on a Sunday for me, non-negotiable, I don't train and I don't work. The only thing I'll do in the morning is a bit of study and I'll plan and review my week just so that's wrapped up in the morning. But then I'll spend the rest of the day with my family. And because I allow that, put that time in place, I know all of the other days I'm gonna do what needs to be done. On that Sunday, I don't feel guilty of taking the time off. Or I would sporadically put breaks in because I know Every time I've gone 100 miles an hour and I'm feeling time and I'm just, I'm just trying to do more, do more, do more, because it's usually in them times when you feel that space, you're not actually doing much. You're actually just sort of pulling your hair out a little bit. You're doing unproductive work. It's not that effective. So it ends up being more stressful because there's always going to be more to do. So that's why I try not to fill that time with just like busyness and sort of make each day as productive and effective as possible, but then plan in days that I'm gonna have off. Example, if I say to myself, in 3 weeks' time on that Sunday, I'm gonna have the full day off, I'm gonna go treat myself, I'm gonna have a spa, I'm gonna do whatever, I know that it's coming. So I'm gonna work as hard as possible and be effective as possible. When that day comes, I can take my foot off the gas and say, you can enjoy this, because you know tomorrow you're going to go 100 miles in again. But in terms of like the filling the space, I've realized some people fill the space, which I used to do. I'd get to the end of each day scratch my head and say, right, what have I done today? Um, I've not done much. It's only 7 o'clock, right? If you stay up till 10 o'clock, that means you've had a good day. And then in that 3 hours, I'm, I'm not really doing anything. So I'll just try and plan my days out to, to like making sure that all my time is getting spent, but that time that's getting spent is moving me closer to something, whether that be a goal, a project, or something that's, you know, move me— that's moving me close to a goal or a project or something that I'm achieving. And if I'm actioning and all that, I don't feel like I need to spend that time doing just nonsense. Yeah, because I feel like I've achieved.

Yeah, I know, I know what you mean. It's a lot easier to relax, not be hard on yourself, when, like you said, you, you've done a really good job of being effective, feeling like you've had a productive day. That does make sense. I think sometimes I just struggle with it because whenever I do have that downtime or free space, like my my default is like, what can I learn? Yeah.

And also, I'll be honest with you, I saw it's like sometimes it's even the day. And what I mean by that is like, if I did finish on 6 o'clock on a Wednesday, I would be like, fucking hell, what do I need to do? I usually finish at X time, what, there's going to be more to do? But if I did finish on 6 o'clock on a Friday evening or on a Saturday evening, I would probably be a bit lenient on what's to do next. So I think that, you know, that one is— there's so many like ifs or buts around it because there's some days where I would allow myself and some days I feel like I should be doing more. But I think that's just the natural tendency of someone that wants to improve, that wants to progress, that wants to achieve a lot in their life. And also, do you love doing what you do?

Yeah, most of the time. Like, it's hard, but I think, I think the reason why I bring it up is because when you were talking about your journey with personal development, it's obviously giving you a lot and there's a lot clearly a lot of positives that it's given you, right? But I think it's also important to talk about the, the challenges that come with it, right? Because when you, when you, if you think about it, if you never went on this journey, you would never know all of these things that could be possible. And like, there's also a benefit to that, right? That you're naive to, you're naive to all that. So I do all, I just think it's interesting conversation because like when you do start that personal development journey, you're like, eyes are just they just opened up.

Yes.

But then that means you've opened up that, but you can't close it again.

Yeah.

You've opened that box of like, Jack, you can— if you put your mind to it, you can keep being the best version of yourself. Like, that's now open. So now it's like you can't— yeah, like, now you know that, it's like, it's down to you.

I get that. And listen, I am a very— like, I've got very addictive tendencies. I'm very obsessive. I'm very— so I know exactly what you're saying there. I always feel like there's a— there's more to do. There is the next thing to learn. There is this and that. But the other thing that I do also do which helps is like reviewing and recognizing myself quite often. At the start I didn't, it was just like, just next, next, next, next, next, next. And that kind of led me on like a burnout. I'm never doing enough. But now putting intervals in of like reviewing on my progress, giving myself a praise for that progress, it does make you build a better relationship up where you actually feel like you're doing well. So you kind of do allow yourself a bit more time off, you kind of build a better relationship to say, no, I've been effective today, you've done well today, instead of like, let's fill this, we need to do more. Yeah, because you like reflect and say, you know what, these are my wins today, this is where I've done well. If you do that on a consistent, regular basis, it's like you recognize yourself for the work that you're doing and you start focusing on the good that you're doing rather than what's missing.

Yeah, because our brain instantly goes out.

And that's the— when I first started this whole journey, it was like, because 90% of my actions were terrible, 10% were good. I was like, you have to focus on improving this 90%. And it was good. I was strict to myself, I was harsh on myself. Even if it was like, right, you're getting up at 5 tomorrow, and I got about 2 past 5, it was like, you're fucking lazy, you need to do more. And I've done that for so long, but then what I realized is it helped me get to there, but once my 90% of my actions were good and 10% wasn't that great, I was focusing on the 10%, and I was not recognizing myself for the 90% of work that I was doing. And I had to transition to say like, right, let's build a better relationship with this. Praise yourself for this 90% and just know this 10% can improve. And since doing that, it's made me feel more proud. It's made me feel like I'm accomplishing things, recognizing myself more, and it just makes the whole journey 100 times easy, like better or more rewarding.

No, yeah, for sure. I think it's just so easy to forget like where you was, but especially in like the business game. Like, it's so easy to look at your targets, you're not quite there, but then like forget that a year ago, like, what you're, you know, what your revenue was and what you was doing. Like, it's, yeah, it's, it's such a good place to go to be more reflective and look at those things. As you always, if you have that mindset, you're looking at what could be doing better, more. But just interested to get your thoughts on this, and speaking specifically to people that might be running their own recruitment business, whatever that looks like, because you, you've got a family now, you've got a relationship. How— because I've had to get better at this— but how do we feel about this switching off? Like, how do you switch off? Have you got better at switching off? Work-life balance? Because the way that you're talking doesn't really match up with that, I feel like, right? And I've had to get better at this. So for example, when I started my entrepreneurial journey like 6 years around about now, what I didn't do a very good job of was like communicate with my partner. So I would just work late and expect her to understand why, but what I wasn't doing was trying to explain to her like why I think it's important I'm working late at the moment. These are the goals that I have. I feel like if we want to get there, these are probably the sacrifices we're going to have for this time being. And I've had to get better at that. It's an ongoing journey to get better. I've definitely got way better at it in terms of actually being present and doing things that help me be more present. Like what you're saying, for me, every Sunday I'll do some work which is like reflecting and looking at the week ahead because that just helps me be more present. And if I know I've got that time on that Sunday, I'm not going to be like stressing about like, I really just want to get ahead and just, just plan. So you've got to figure out those things for you, but What's that been like for you? Because I think that will help people, because I've— it's hard, that as well, especially when you've got a relationship in the mix as well. You're also, I'm sure, thinking about how can I be a good dad, be a good role model. How have you got—

I'll be honest, this one caused problems this year. Before we had my daughter, um, in December, me and my girl— my girlfriend knew the mission. She knows what I'm like, right? She was there with me when I was like going out and being a nuisance and then transitioning to this new version of me. From that early on, I was like, look, I'm gonna give up doing the drugs, the drink, and all that, but I believe that I can get here. This is going to be— it's going to be a lot of sacrifices, there's going to be a lot that needs to go on. She brought into me doing that. The only thing that made her buy into me is the fact that when it comes to the weekend, I wasn't drinking and doing drugs and I was working. So I was keeping my promises and my word of like, this is where we're going and I'm gonna make it happen. But I was backing it with action so she could look at me and say like he's saying he's doing all these things and he's gonna do all of these things. So that really helped me, as in like with her supporting me. There's been times when I've actually had no money in the bank, I'm in loads of debt, things are not looking great. She's had to go work for a couple of days, get some money so I can put food on the table, like. But she'd done that with me because she knew that I was going somewhere. So that was like great for me because I bought— it was because I was sticking to my word and action in these things. She believed in me to make this happen, and she still does. When my daughter come along, I'm in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, okay, daughter's here, my missus can't work at the moment, I need to work even harder, I need to push even harder. The mission stays the same, let's continuously go on. People were telling me, when you, you know, you say goodbye to your routine, all this kind of stuff. Me, I was just like stubborn. What you on about? So not slept all night, still get up at half 4, study, go to the gym, just 100 miles an hour. My girlfriend she done more of the work when the— because I was just being selfish because I was still thinking missions on. That caused a lot of problems because in my head I'm like, I need to do more. I've got—

and I'm doing it for my family.

I'm doing it for my family. I sound like, you know, this is like the mentality. She probably wanted more time for me to do, whether it's cleaning a nappy or whatever it may be. I'm not recognizing this, I'm just obsessed going forward. It caused a lot of problems, but we both sat down, we both see a therapist. I booked her in, we sat there, the woman got us to, you know, just compliment each other, talk about, um, what's going on at the moment. How you see things, Jack, how do you see things? Turns out we both still on the same mission, um, we're both seeing it differently. You weren't talking about it, maybe, but we wasn't talking about it or communicating it effectively. She enabled us to communicate what it was. I was like, look, I'm getting up, I'm grinding, I'm pushing, I'm going because I want to— for us, for us, I want to provide for us, I need to do more, you're not working, you know, like she's got her own business, she wasn't getting paid. I need to make this work and push on because I want to provide for you. She's in a bubble in her head thinking, this is all I need and I'm doing it for this and that. So we was on that, we're just communicating different. So that simple form of communication brought us back on that mission together and to push forward. Still, it's not been per— it's been 100 times better. It's ongoing, it's ongoing. It's still like a push and a thing, but I'm so set in my ways where she kind And then the good thing is about my girlfriend, she— it's not that she allows me to be me, but she knows what I'm like. I'm, I'm hyper-obsessive, I'm hyper-focused, I love just achieving, and that makes me feel my best. If I'm not doing that, then I don't feel like I'm gonna be as good for my family, and that's the honest truth. So she kind of not lets me get on and be me, and if I'm ever sort of drifting too much, she'll pull me in. A good way I like to look at this is like We've got values that we value, right? My biggest one's like personal growth, myself, my health, um, all of that kind of stuff. The second is like, you know, my mission, where I'm going and what I'm doing. And then my family comes in with that. I just spend my time with these values and that's it. Like, on every given week, if my personal development's getting time, if my mission's getting the time it needs, and if my family gets the time that we need, I feel in balance and fulfilled. Now it doesn't mean they all get 12 hours a day because it's, it's too hard to do that. One's going to be up here, one's going to be down there. But if I've got non-negotiables in place, like for example spending a bit of time with my daughter before I start the day, but trying to put her to bed at night, spending an evening with my girlfriend, half an hour chatting, um, every month we go and do a date night, every week we have the whole family off— if she's happy with that and I'm happy with that, we're balanced, we're perfect there. And then I'm making sure that I'm spending the rest of my time on these other areas. Now it's like a tightrope and I'm walking on it just trying to stay in line with these things. And if I'm ever going too much this way and I'm neglecting the family, my girlfriend would tap me on the shoulder and say, Jack, I need you over here, we need to be doing this. That's my cue to say, okay, pull back a little bit.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

A lot of people struggle with that, like I did, because I think people look for like just complete balance and it's not. It's just like, what are my values? How much time do each of these things need every week? And that's only going to come with you planning these things in. We all know we want to improve and stuff, right? I want to improve my relationship, but what behaviors and actions are you taking to improve that? Sit down on a Sunday when you block all of your work time in, blocking your time for your date night or your relationship or whatever it is that you want to improve, your health, and just put the time in like you do your work stuff and stick to them times like you do your work stuff, and these will all stay together.

Yeah, I just think the reason I bring that up is because Like, I think you can really easily fall into the trap of, like you're saying, I'm doing— I'm putting all of this work and energy into it for us. But actually, because I've had these conversations with people, that can sometimes actually be to the detriment of your relationship and the people you care about if you don't, like, talk about it.

Definitely.

And I definitely, like, fell into that. Um, just, like, just personally interested, and then we'll get into, uh, this, but what made you arrive at the decision of I think if we were to speak to a therapist, it might help. Like, how did you end up at that?

The therapist thing for me is when I went through my own transition and journey of like going out all the time where I didn't have no one to talk to, and I'm, I'm very— I was very closed at that time, like talking to anyone about feelings that I've never grew up in a household where anyone's talking about any feelings or sitting around or asking, how did you get on today? It was just never like that for me. It's very suppressed. No one talks about nothing. I thought I needed to see a therapist because I just wanted to explore it. First session, very just like, you know, no words are coming out. Um, as I got into it— and I think you've got to find the right person with this— I started talking more. As I started to talk more, she started to help me understand the way that I think about things. And then I overcome something, and then I was there every week. I went there every week for like 3 months. And that, that helped me so much that anytime I feel like there's something I don't understand about myself, I'll go talk to someone that knows about that area that that I'm, right, that I'm unsure about. Because the way that I used to think, because I was so not in control of the way that I think, or my mind, or understanding my thought process— when someone's helping you understand your mind, it doesn't seem that bad. Like, example, I've, I've done an assessment and they said it's highly likely, like, I've got OCD, for example, right? They haven't diagnosed me. They can't until you go through like 10 weeks of therapy, XYZ. The way that I used to think is like when I come to an end of a, um, a turning, I would say, what would happen if you drive your car straight through the bush or you walk past something? Like, I get sporadic, okay, um, negative dark thoughts, right? Ages ago, because I wasn't in the way of control of my mind and I didn't know about all of this stuff, I would think, mate, you're a fucking lunatic. Like, there's something wrong with you.

You can't tell people because you're having those thoughts.

Because I'm having them thoughts, but then thoughts are not mine. It's just coming from a place, it's a subconscious program or an OCD or whatever it may be. When I started to understand things like this through therapy, I was like, oh, you're not, you're not nuts. That's not you. You're not thinking like that. You're not consciously saying, right, drive yourself over that bridge and kill yourself. Does that make sense? You're just getting an intrusive thought out of nowhere. So like, these people help you understand the way that you think, just like a coach would or a mentor. They help you change the way that you think and see that. And I knew I've been to this person and it's changed me. My girlfriend been to her a few times and I thought, look, me and you, we don't know what's going on, let's book this in and let this person help us because this is an expert and she's going to help us get through this. And just by doing that, it was— me and my girlfriend never ever argued. We had a daughter and it was an argument over petty stuff, pretty much like builds up, builds up all over, over nothing, like completely nothing. And by speaking to that person, not that little thing though, is it? No. And we never argued before that. Then we had the daughter and then it was like arguments popping up all over the place. It's like, oh, fucking hell, we could see why people split up. And where we're both sort of growth orientated, it was like, I don't want to split up, we haven't— yeah, it's not that problem, let's go talk to someone about that. And she helped us see things differently, like change the way that we think. And by doing that, it just completely changed everything. That's why I'm so like believing— even now, for example, I'm in a good spot in my life, but I'll go see a therapist once or every other week, even if it's bad or good. I just want to improve. I just want to learn more about myself and understand where— what's going on in this head of ours, because a lot goes on.

No, I really respect that. That's awesome. What, um, what have you been most surprised by over the last 6 to 12 months since sitting down speaking to more recruiters? Like you said, like, it wasn't this grand plan just, just curious to hear your thoughts. Like, you've met a lot of people now, whether it be founders, like managers and companies. Just interested, what have you been most surprised by since sitting down and working more closely with Recruiters Out of Interest? Surprised by the journey or by these industries, by the people that you've ended up working with? Like, has there been— I don't know, have you been pleasantly surprised, or I don't know, just overall just curious?

I would say, I would say the thing that I've been most surprised— I'm not gonna say— yeah, maybe most surprised about is They're highly ambitious, but what takes them to one place won't take them to the next place. What I mean by that is a lot of individuals that I've worked with, it usually starts off with success and they just do something that makes them successful for ages, but then they get to a certain point and that thing's no longer driving them and they're not sure what the next step is because of that, because they got to where they aimed for and then they're like— it was probably about— it was probably about gaining significance, money, whatever it may be, right? And then it's not like the— say the purpose is gone and they've not got something next to go for. They don't know what that thing is. Like, what are they actually— where do they want to be in another 10, 20 years, or even 5, 10 years? But what's pushed them there tends to be at that stopping point, and it's like, I don't know what's going next or where I should take this.

Where have typical— where have people typically been when they've ended up having that initial chat with you out of interest? Because I think that'd be interesting. Like, if I'm a recruitment founder, whatever, recruiter, and slide into your DMs, I'm like, mate, would love to chat. I'm sure you're then going to be like, tell me a bit about you, where you're at, whatever. What, what's been like the common thing that they've gone, Jack, I just feel this, or I struggle with this, or put a couple things—

I'm stagnating, I'm performing at 50% of what I'm capable of, I know deep down I've got so much more to give, I'm just not sure how I can take it that level. I'm not sure what it is that I need. And that's what it is. They've got themselves to a great standard because they've been achieving for so long, but it's probably been more outcome-driven, more significance-driven, more money-driven. And then it hits a certain point— and don't get me wrong, they're at great stages, they're earning great money— but it— the money wears off and it's not that fulfilling anymore. There's— they don't know what's next. They don't know. It always comes down to we need more fulfillment and meaning. And most likely, you know, from contribution or just finding something else to chase in life that isn't solely around money or significance. It's something deeper. So they feel like they're either operating at a level that they have for a while, it's stagnated. And these stagnations, by the way, they're still— they're still operating at a great level. It's not that they're falling all the way off, but they're like performing at 50%, I hear quite often. I'm stagnating. And then one of the things, one of the reasons why they want to take action: I don't want to go on like this for another 6 months, a year, 2 years. I don't want to look back and regret. I don't want to look back and regret knowing I could have been so much more, but I just, I didn't change and this was just kind of it. That's like a big thing for people. They don't want to look back and say like, I've wasted it.

So I think when I asked you what have you often found has held people back Well, like, the common reasons, it's this then. So like, don't have clarity on who they want to be. Yeah, like, they've got to a point, like you said, like the recruitment example, and we've had a lot on the podcast, is your biggest goal always is become the top biller. You become the top biller, and then it's like, right, what's, what's going on now? Like, what's the— like, to maintain that and go another 30, 40% is, is hard versus like climbing to, to get there. But you said, yeah, having clear clarity on who they want to be, do not have maybe like a deeper why that can help keep pushing them and, like you said, get to that next stage. Don't have clear goals. Are these the types of things then that you— success in work but not outside of work?

Yes.

These are often the things that you often have uncovered that might be holding people back.

And even that, like, not, not working on their personal— not working on their personal development, like sort of like wanting to create that balance but not just neglecting outside of work, not really a purpose personally accomplishing anything. What I mean by personally, obviously them achieving business success is a personal accomplishment, but I mean like working on themselves outside, like doing a half marathon, um, signing up to a course and achieving a course, just getting into their fitness and putting like stuff outside of work that will make them feel better about themselves, usually maybe around them health, or just challenging themselves in different ways. They haven't got these things out. There's no like life outside of work where they're really pushing and progressing themselves. It's always just been about succeeding in work, but then by them taking a step back, working on themselves, that's when everything else gets more fun, more exciting, uh, and better. But then also finding purpose outside of work has been a key one. Like, some people go into work knowing that maybe this business is what I've got to do now, but maybe in 5 years I'm going to exit this because I'm going to go do X. Or maybe now I want to be the top biller, I want to continuously earn this money Why am I coming in? Because I'm just going to milk this for the next X amount of years, but I'm actually want to do this thing over here, but it's just not right now. So they go into work with a new sense of purpose, knowing that they're working on the best version of them, not because they want to achieve in this business or building this business, but later down the line they can do something else or provide in a different way that's outside of that. And it gives them excitement to go back into work. Because they know what the overall purpose is. Um, yeah, the overall purpose is, um, inside of— outside of work, that's why they're achieving inside of work, you know.

So when we had a bit of a brainstorm around the like 5 common habits that you consistently see in high performers— there might be more, but at the top here we started with like goal setting, which would have all heard. How— where do people go wrong with goal setting?

A lot of people go wrong with goal setting is that they start January, they put on the notes on their phone, I am going to achieve it, or just like not even I am, that's quite a very— that's even like solid specific. More like, you know, build certain amount, um, be fitter and healthier. Like, there's no clarity when it comes down to the goal itself of exactly what it is I'm going to achieve. Example, some people might say, yeah, I want to lose weight. It's not like I am going to lose X, and then they don't break it down. They don't have a system in place. Because it's all well and good having the goal, we need the goal, we need the direction, we need to be heading somewhere, but then it needs to be black-backed by a solid plan. And what I mean by that is like a plan where you've got all of the actions that you need to take and they're put out in your calendar. So you're waking up every day, you're actioning these things because you know they're moving you closer to this goal. The other side of it, they don't have to say a deadline on the goal, so they don't know when they want the goal to be achieved by, or they're not measuring or reviewing it. So some people just start the year, right, that's it, I want to achieve these 5 goals. Get to the end of the year, oh, I did actually achieve that one. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. Oh, but I got this or they just don't do them at all because they don't have a specific goal, they don't have a plan with it, they don't have a deadline, they don't review it, and also there's no strong reason why behind it. Now, a lot of people do achieve goals, like what I said, if they put them on their phone, but they're kind of rolling to them. Like, if they start the year and say, I'm gonna get promoted this year, they know that they've just probably got to show up this year to get promoted. So instead of like making it serious, some of the high performers, what they do is like, right, Instead of like just saying, I'm gonna achieve X this year, they would maybe bring that— say if it was a promotion, right? Instead of just saying, I'm gonna get promoted this year, and they know that if they just showed up, they'll achieve it by the end of the year, it's like, I'm gonna get promoted in 5 months. This is exactly what I'm gonna be doing every day. Then they'll block the time out in their calendar to do them actions every single day. Then they will review that progress every day, and then that's how they start achieving goals that will take a year. In 6 months because they've actually got a solid plan of action in place to take them there. Building a system.

Fitness habit, more energy. I really like this person. I think this is overlooked.

What's that? Having fitness?

Like, I'm not surprised to hear— it'd be interesting to see how common this is. I don't know if, if you've built a community of other, like, coaches and stuff, but I'm really not surprised that part of your journey started in, like, fitness and then because it just goes hand in hand. Like, if you're— if, if you're— if you go on your own fitness journey, what are you doing? You're having discipline, you're doing what you say you're going to do, you're taking action. Um, so like, yeah, I think I really like this piece around why sometimes people might come to you and work with you when they feel like they're really good when it comes to work, but they know they could be better outside of what normally— maybe on their fitness side. And then they're susceptible just to making those decisions that don't match up with the person that they do want to be. And like, yeah, so I'm, I'm just a huge advocate of this. And like, just think, if you put energy into working out, whatever that looks like for you, whether that be running, whatever, the knock-on benefit of that is like huge.

100%. That's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of individuals that come with— 9 times out of 10, they're not working on their health. They're not working on their fitness. And then by putting that in, it gives them more energy, they feel more productive, they feel more confident, they feel more consistent, more disciplined. And that's why when they put their fitness in place, we usually attach a goal to it, whether that would be dropping weight, whether it be doing a run, a half marathon, and stuff like that. I see even one of my clients the other day, that one of the community— the community we've got, we've got loads of people posting like runs and stuff that they've done every day. Like, I've got a client that said to me the other day, he owns a recruitment business, oh just hit my biggest, um, month that I've, that I've, um, that I've ever achieved. Usually would go and celebrate with 5, 6, 7, 8 pints. Instead, I've just done a 5K feeling like unbelievable, like I've never run this long before. So it's just hit two birds in one stone, and now he feels proud of himself, he feels energized. But that's something that he started slowly getting into. And if even if it's not like fitness every single day, like, um, like a big cardio session or training, even like walking throughout the day, just like incorporating these things in so they feel better about themselves. And 9 times out of 10, reason why people don't do it is they say, I just ain't got the time to do it. But really, it's just not making the time for to do, to do it, to do the fitness. But 100%, they feel more energized, more confident, um, I feel like they're achieving stuff because they're pushing and challenging themselves more. And it definitely goes into them at work.

What, just like, just to build on this, just curious, because it's definitely, it's become like more and more of like a thing, popular. What, so what's ended up being your like relationship with like alcohol then? Because I do feel like this can often lead to people being like, I'm gonna have a period where I'm sober or I don't drink. How, yeah, like just curious, like what's your relationship with alcohol now?

Me, I'm sober. I've been sober 3 years, 8 months it was the other day. And I felt like I needed to go sober because, as I said, when I, when I go, I completely go. Took me a long time to get to that. I tried going sober 5, 6, 7 times. Text everyone, I'm gonna go sober, you know, didn't, didn't achieve it not once. Um, always went back. Said for years I should stop, but that's just because that's me. And I tried every other avenue. I tried to have one, don't work. Okay, just do this, do this. I even tried that go out and just do a bit of drugs and don't drink, and I'd still go on spirals for days. So it's like just who I was, I want— it weren't worth being in my life. But the only thing that enabled me to— that this— I hit rock bottom so many times with alcohol, and I felt like I should have stopped and I didn't. And the only thing that made me stop honestly was getting a purpose in my life. And what I mean by that is like really understanding who I wanted to be, what goals I wanted to achieve in my life, what life I wanted to create, and then why and in making that thing so big that it outweighed whatever I thought I was getting from drink or drugs. And at the beginning, it was like, it was like I felt like I was giving something up, but as time's gone on, I don't feel like I've given anything up. But I knew if I was gonna stop and stay consistent, because the, the, the low for me was, right, you feel like you're gonna go achieve these big things in your life, Jack. You kind of believe this stuff now, but this is the only thing getting in the way. Do you want to continuously do this stuff and not make yourself proud, or do you want to stop this and take yourself up there? And then from that day, I haven't had a drink. And like, not everyone that I've worked with or I've been near needs to stop drinking, needs to go sober, but they might even want to cut it down. But I've found that by putting other things in place to focus on, people tend to make their own decision up with their relationship with it. Like, I have people usually just going out all the time. They put these goals in place, they put these big ambitions, this purpose. They start working on it, they start believing in it. Then they go, every time I do this, I'm not actioning this, I don't feel as great as I do when I'm not. And then they kind of make their own decision up to sort of slowly wean away from it a little bit. And not everyone stops. Some people just cut it down, pick occasions when they want to do it. It all depends what your relationship is with, like, like it. Me, it's 100 miles an hour, it's better not being in my life. Some people can have 2 and just feel, that's me, I'm good, and step away from it. So with me, it's just like when you're an all-in kind of person like me, it just— it don't make sense to do it because there's no— I don't gain anything positive from it.

Yeah, because I feel like, I feel like in today's world, it's, it's all— I do feel like it's going on the, the flip side where people can almost get really defensive about having a drink now because everyone's talking about going sober or like in your face.

So we're like crazy.

Yeah, it's mad, isn't it?

Which is crazy.

Like, my, my relationship with alcohol wasn't like yours. Like, I, I really like the idea of leaving alcohol in my 20s. I turned 30 last year, and it wasn't like a big thing for me. Like, for me, it was— the way that I describe it to people is what I don't— personally, I don't really buy into whenever I see posts on LinkedIn around people being like, I gained all this energy, I gained all this focus, I got all this. For me personally, the way that I view it is you, by not drinking, you you claim days back.

Yeah, for sure.

And what I mean by that is, when did you last sit there and think, right, this year, how many days did I lose to being hungover? How many days was I just overridden with anxiety and feeling really bad about myself because I had a couple of drinks? And that's what I found, is that for me, I was, I was fine having one or two. It wouldn't lead to a big, uh, bender by the time I was like 28, 29, or whatever. It was more that if I had one or two, it would be a domino effect for habits that I'm not proud of. So for me, I was just, I was just a big eater. So I'd have one or two pints and be like, can I get a McDonald's on the way? That's on the way home. That, that's what I'll be thinking about. And then the following day, guess what? You're waking up going, what are you doing? Like, is this the person you want to be? You're then speaking really negatively yourself, and then you might feel a lot more anxious the following day. So like, for me, when I speak to people about it, it's just more like you, you claim days back. And that's actually really powerful because you then have more chances of building those habits because you're not— you're not— you're less susceptible to like stopping it, right? So that, that's how I feel about it personally. And like, yeah, I don't know, I think you've got to find your own place of it, right? And, um, that's how I feel about it personally.

And I'm not just saying it's even because I'm— because I'm sober, but there is no doubt about it, if you're not drinking, um, a lot and you're putting your energy on other stuff, you're going to be 10 times more effective. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. It's just like— and I'm not one of them like, you should not drink. It's like, do your own thing with it. But just from experience, not just for myself but from everyone I've worked with, the individuals that like a party, that go out a few times a week, when they stop doing it and they start even cutting it down to once a week, not twice, and then it goes every other week, then it's like, you know, I'm only going to do it when I go out in 3 weeks to celebrate this thing. They're on game because they're more consistent, they're more focused with everything. They can stay on top of everything a lot better. When people say I struggle with balance but, you know, I'm going out every week, it's like No shit, if you're not fresh and you, and you're not fucking on game, it— that's one thing that helps me stay in line with all of these things that I'm talking about is the fact that my missus will not like be happy with me working all Saturday because she knows that on Sunday or on Saturday I'm not laying on the sofa all day hungover. Um, she knows I'm going to be effective for the time that we do spend together. So I do think even if you take it away, you're going to be so much more effective with One thing that really helped me is just understanding, like, what did I want from— what did I get from alcohol? I used— alcohol used to give me confidence. That's the honest truth. Like, well, false sense of confidence, right? I used to think that I had to— I was fun when I had alcohol. It brought me out my shell a little bit. These are all the things that I drunk alcohol for. Once I worked on myself for so long and I realized that you can be confident without alcohol, you can have fun without alcohol, you can do all of this other stuff that alcohol gives you, which does take time to get to it cut down all of the excuses why I felt like I needed it, because I felt like I needed it to be in social situations. Turns out you put yourself in social situations a few times without it, yeah, it's like muscles, you build confidence. Yeah, for sure. So it's just like cutting the excuses down really helped me.

What we're saying about positive self-talk, curious to like— yeah, talk to me about that, why that's important.

Positive self-talk is important. At the beginning, for some individuals, it's not there, and it's not even being consciously aware of that positive self-talk. It's like what I was saying, it's like focusing on usually that 10% that you're not doing great. And that's what a lot of people do. It's like they don't recognize the 90%, but then the 10% is like, you should do better, you're no good, this could have been better, that could have been better. But the individuals that I've really helped, like, really be consciously aware of the way that they think, that self-talk that they put in, like getting to the end of the day and writing down like, what's, what's some wins that I got today, what lessons did I learn today, how can I improve tomorrow? And then also just like talking themselves throughout the day um, positively. Like, if they do do something, go to the gym and they weren't doing it, well done, that's good, good work you've done there. And like recognizing their success as it goes through the day. I used to be one of these people, especially like when I got off a call that didn't go my way, would be like, you're fucking useless, how did you not know to say XYZ? But it's only when you look back in hindsight you, you know what to say, right? So instead of that kind of like bashing yourself down every time you make a mistake or something, I started to take the approach of of, okay, that didn't go my way, what could have been improved? Oh, that could have been improved, that can improve. Okay, next one, implement that. Now if I do the next one and I don't implement it, that's when it's like, are you stupid? You said you was going to do that and we're not doing it. But if I did do it, then it's self-recognition and praise again. And what I've noticed with the individuals that are like consistently improving and progressing is they build a better relationship with themselves, and that comes from talking to themselves in a better manner. Because if you're always pushing yourself down, you can be hard on yourself, but if you're always beating yourself down on 9 times out of 10 things that are not even that important, they're just mistakes, or when you look back you should have done it, um, you always start getting yourself in a bit of a mood and burning out and don't essentially enjoy the stuff that you're doing on a day-to-day basis.

Have you got better at that by you're saying like what, having some sort of like journal or like just being a lot more conscious about Jack, you did this today? Definitely writing things down.

First it started with the journaling. End of every day I would write down a little brief description of like my personal life and my professional life, what just happened today, for example. And then I recognized myself for the wins, right? What 3 wins that you got today? This happened, that happened, that happened. Or you could even say, what am I proud of today? This, this, this. Okay, what's one lesson that I learned today? Okay, this was the lesson. Okay, how can my best self show up tomorrow? How can I improve tomorrow? And that was like the starting blocks for me, just doing that. And then it started turning into like just writing down my wins as I went through the day. And what I mean by that is like, even if I get up on time, it's a win, right? If I have a cold shower, it's a win. If I train, it's a win. So I started like writing them down as I got throughout the day, which really helped me. The other thing was like just when I've done something, pat myself on the back for it. Like if I've just finished my gym session and I felt like I really give it some 'Well done, good work today. You've done work.' Like, just talking to myself in a better manner. So I want to do these things that I keep saying, but also I'm recognizing it's not just— sometimes when you're high performing and doing these things, you just think it's a necessity. 'I should do this. This is how I should behave. I should be getting up at this time. I should be doing the cold shower. I should be training. My level should be here.' But it's not that. This is how you want to perform. It's not the fact that you should be doing it. And because you've labeled that on yourself you just see me as like the normal. I should be doing this, I should be doing it. So if I'm not doing it, then, you know, I'm an idiot for doing it. But not actually recognizing yourself for that work that you're doing. And by taking that approach, your relationship with yourself builds. And I took a lot of work on this because I was the harshest person on myself. Yeah, yeah. And I'm still hard on myself. It's not— I let myself off, but it's got better.

It's not just that.

It's not just that anymore, do you know what I mean?

Because I can relate to that.

If it was someone else, um, telling you that stuff all all the time. Give me a break, you know what I mean?

Yeah, let— I, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this since you've been on this journey. Obviously we put down here self-awareness, which I really agree with. I'm sure you've had it where it could be socially, maybe even professionally, but how do we feel about this idea of becoming more self-aware, developing self-awareness? Because I do think that's like a hard thing It's not for it. I don't know, I feel like people have got to sometimes get there themselves. Yeah, even though you might tell them 15 times, do these things and it should help you become more self-aware. I don't know, I feel like sometimes people don't quite have it until they arrive there themselves and see it themselves, or developing that self-awareness. So like, do you think people can always develop it, or— I don't know, I think it's an interesting one, self-awareness, in, in different aspects there.

What you're saying there, and that's, that's what I would say the difference in between someone that tells and someone that coaches. Like, with like coaching and stuff like that, it's never me. I'm— if I'm working with someone, I could look at them and say, I know what this person needs to do, right? But I ask questions, and by asking questions, it gets them to think about what they feel like they should do. It's never, you should do this. It's like, how do you— would you approach this situation? And then they've actually got to think, because then they start thinking about the answer, and then it comes to conclusion is the right answer, they're more likely to do it because people support what they create. So it's never like, you should do this, you should do this, you do this. It's like, what do you feel like you should do about this situation? What would your best self do in this situation? How would you handle this? How could you be more productive in this area? And then they come up with their own conclusions, so they develop self-awareness. You're sort of changing the way that they think so they can make their own decisions and actions based off what they've essentially said. 9 times out of 10, a lot of people know the stuff that they want to do or have to do but they just can't come to the answers themselves. Common sense is not always common practice. Sometimes we know all these things that we do, but we don't know— we don't actually do them.

But it can be quite hard to like get out of yourself, right? It's definitely a lot easier if you're shining on you, holding up a mirror and going, how about this, how about that?

Definitely. And, and I think journaling helps with that. Journaling helps develop self-awareness by understanding what wins did I get, what— how can I improve?

How did you feel today?

How did I feel today? What improvements can I make? How can I improve tomorrow? All these things. But then the other side of self-awareness saying this is like when you start becoming more self-aware, you may regress at the beginning. And what I mean by that is like when I become more self-aware of the way that I think, I was like, oh my God, this is like a jungle. Like there was too much going on, do you know what I mean? I started to understand why I was thinking certain ways. What I was like, why am I feeling guilty about this? I've never felt guilty about this before. You start developing more self-awareness and it could be quite a— especially if like the way that you think, if you become more aware your conscious thoughts and stuff like that, it can usually regress. And that's like with anything. If you're building new habits, if you're starting new routines, at the start everything usually regresses before it starts to progress, because you become consciously aware, you're confused, you're like, what's all this going on? But then as time gets on, you get used to the way that you start thinking. Now, if you start a new habit or behavior, become more self-aware while you're doing things, it usually takes a little back step before it pushes forward. But I think a lot of people can gain self-awareness by— I would, I would say journaling, journaling, therapy, all of these things just help, um, help you think differently.

And is the idea here if you develop that and you have more of that, you can be better at making decisions that make you— yeah, help you make better decisions that enable you to be— do things that give you a better chance of like getting to your goals, succeeding?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Because if they can recognize where they're going wrong, what needs to be improved, then obviously they, they can action on that and improve what they need to improve on. And I do think that comes just from asking yourself questions. Everything that we do is a question. What should I eat next? What time should I go to bed tonight? How do I feel right now? That we do this subconsciously. But if you can start asking yourself better questions on a day-to-day basis, you'll gain more self-awareness, and you can direct your thoughts the way that you want them to. And that's been key for me. It's just like asking better questions on a daily basis. And that usually does come from even in the morning, just like asking questions. Even in the evening, what do I need to do tomorrow? How am I going to do it? How effective do I need to be in this area? And if they can do that and understand what's working and what's not working, they can implement on the improvements. And that's why what I said about the goal setting is like, have a measuring process in place. Like, if you've got weeks gone by and you don't feel like you're aligned with your goal because the target you've set— let's say you wanted to, I don't know, lose 10 kg in 10 weeks, right? You get to week 1, you've not lost a kg. If you sit down at the end of that week and say like, right, okay, I've not lost a kg this week, why have I not lost a kg? Well, hold on a minute, you didn't go gym Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you didn't do this, this, this. Okay, if I keep doing this, will I get to my goal on time? No. What do I need to do next week to improve? Well, you need to go gym 3 days and you need to stick to your diet like you said that you would. Okay, let's do this and see how it comes up next week. And then you've gained self-awareness of exactly like what you're doing and not doing and how you need to improve. But people don't even do that. They don't review or measure, so they just get to week 2, week 3, week 4 and be like, fucking, I've lost no weight and I'm 5 weeks away from my goal. It's not going to happen. Let me push it back a little bit more, or let me just not do it.

Love it. What, what are the big goals for you now though, mate? Obviously ended up building this cool community of obviously not just recruiters, but there's a lot of people that I know you've worked with, that I know. What's like, what are you really focusing on, doubling down on, going into like next year? I don't know, what are you really done with that? I mean, obviously you're telling me about another trip that's going to involve like going away a couple of days running. What are you really focusing on in terms—

I just actually passed the big goal today as an NLP Master's qualification. Oh nice, come through this morning, 6 months of work. So I'm happy with that. That was one of the big goals to finish this year. Going into next year, the big thing for me is one, growing my community that I've been working on Um, obviously everyone in there is always pushing, always striving and challenging. One of the things that I've always wanted to do is just like bring people together and give them something different than wanting to go out and party on the weekend. So we do meetups now and again, like we've done a 10K race day the other day, Victoria Park. We just come back from Rome, uh, 5, 6 of us done a half marathon and spent the weekend together. And then next month, next year, I'm gonna be looking at doing like every 4 weeks, every like, um, quarter a trip away. The next one's going to be like Palma and doing like another half marathon, things like that. So they're going to be like a consistent thing that I'm focusing on. Another thing I'm focusing on is just like building the online courses that I've been doing, um, and, and going into set and doing seminars and things like that. So just like actually teaching my methods in like a big space. This has been a dream of mine to be like a public speaker and sort of share my methods, all the stuff that I've learned, and get people into personal development and growth more, but in a more relatable way instead of feeling like it's, um, you know, like one of them old school kind of seminars or things that— I think people want to get into personal development. I think they do, but I don't think they do enough. So I'm trying to make it a little bit more exciting and fun and taking it back to like not feeling like it's just like studying or like a boring learning thing, because that's what I always thought it was. Whereas now I feel like learning, growing is exciting and fun, and I want to try and see how I can make that fun and exciting for other individuals. So like seminars are going to be a big thing for me, growing a community, continue on coaching and being the best coach that I can be. And then also, yeah, the courses, the coaching, the seminars, and then also my own challenges. Like one of the things I'm working on at the moment is 100-mile race that I'm going to be doing in April, the 5th year after 4 years sobriety. So, and that's one of the things that I need for myself. I always want to achieve in my work work. I always want to contribute, I always want to grow that side of things, but I always need something for me. And that's what I like doing with other individuals, like how can you really personally accomplish, um, personally challenge yourself outside of work so you feel proud of the efforts that you're putting in. Where I didn't have the, the 100-mile race, I started doing like a qualification on NLP. I want something I could work towards every day and feel proud about. Now that's done, I'm gonna— the 100 miles in place so I can really get my head narrowed down and focused on something where I'm mentally and physically challenging myself because that's when I feel like I'm just— I'm at my best. And that's another thing that's helped me stop the drinking, drugs, is like putting things that I'm like sort of like letting that, that energy out, that release, whatever it may be. Um, you know, you work can be stressful, life can be stressful, but putting in running for me has just been key. Don't have to be running for people, but I found physically and mentally challenging yourself, finding that outlet. Running is key for me, and I know a lot of people that I work with of running as being like a substitute to stop cracking on. Running has usually been the substitute.

It is good. Well, look, real, real pleasure. Like, thanks so much for, like, you know, shared a lot here. Like, love the journey you've been on, and I think—

thank you—

which is why people relating to it, I think, which I think is really cool. Like you said, you're just trying to make this word personal development that sometimes can maybe make people feel a bit icky or like, oh no, that's not me, more relatable. You've been in their shoes. And yeah, just like, yeah, you should be proud of yourself, man. I'm sure you're like, I've got big goals and stuff. So love it, mate. Thanks for coming on the pod.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Great stuff.