From Top Biller to Entrepreneur: Niall Simpson's Lessons Learned

Niall Simpson is the founder of Pursue Talent, which he launched in 2022. And in this conversation, we have an honest and raw chat on the challenges that come with running your own recruitment business. And we did this by going through the 10 things Niall would do differently if he was to start his business again. So here's what you're going to learn in this week's episode: why Niall had to relearn how to sell.

I came from a business where the founders and directors had strong networks, did a lot of the selling for us. I felt like I was getting a little rookie in terms of our approach. It wasn't a process to win clients.

Overcoming self-doubt.

Anyone that knows me, I beat myself up probably way too much in terms of expect too much of myself. But you've never done it before in your life, so why would you be good at it?

The power of building momentum.

And the more forward actions that I create, the more meetings I'm going to book. Yeah, so yeah, it's about working backwards basically. The meeting— the job I want to win is a meeting book, then it's a forward action, and it's a conversation.

And how Nile has gotten better at managing the balance of work health and relationships when you're trying to build your business?

I need at least 7 hours, so I've tried to prioritize sleep over a lot of things because I get up and I go gym in the morning. I used to prioritize that, maybe going to train in the morning instead of sleep.

Let's get into this week's episode. Niall, welcome to the pod.

Thanks for having me, man.

It's been, uh, I've tried a few times. Yeah, managed to get you, uh, while you've been down for one of your Black Tech Sales Network events. Uh, obviously with you now living in Manchester.

Yeah.

So I'm glad that we could finally make it happen.

It's about time. I think, um, you've asked me like 2 or 3 times. I think it was more like the timing, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah. No, you didn't— I mean, you didn't like reject me too many times. It was just like we wanted to— it was just we tried to make it work when he was in London, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So today I think what we were excited to really sort of get stuck into was this entrepreneurial journey that you're on, right? Um, and I guess for everyone listening, a bit of context. You worked for one company before you set up on your own for 5 years. Yep, the classic track record of like one of their best performers, top performers. Your best year there was at, um, $280K per tech sales. And then May 2022, you started your own entrepreneurial journey, started your own business. And, um, I think we really want to just talk about what that's been like, the lessons. You've been doing a series on LinkedIn on, uh, 10 things I would do differently if I started my entrepreneurial journey again. We're gonna get into that. Yeah, I'm gonna talk about, you know, uh, how to go about building a community because you're doing some really great things there, talking about the— how you've had to learn to sell. I'm going to talk about that. So loads of things that we're going to get into here, but really, hopefully this would be really helpful for people that, you know, might be thinking at some point to start their own business or in the trenches right now because I know we're going to keep it real, because I know it's not all been plain sailing.

Yeah, I think hopefully if anyone can just take from this who's thinking about setting up, um, hopefully they'll be inspired. Also they'll get some like realities of what it's actually like. Yes, that's— I guess we want to—

that's what we want to try and achieve. Yeah, love it. So why don't we start with— because when we prepared for this, um, I wasn't surprised but I found it interesting. But when I do speak to founders, uh, who go out on their own, a lot of the time it's like, I would need to get better at winning new clients, or like, that, that's absolutely fundamental, right? If you haven't got great clients, committed clients that you're able to work with, have jobs to work on, it's going to be difficult regardless. So why don't we just start with like this whole piece that you shared with me in terms of like you literally had to learn how to sell. So why don't, why don't we start with like What did you think selling was before Pursue Talent, before you started your business? And then we'll get into like the things that you've had to learn and how you got better at it.

Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, what I meant by that was I came from a business where it was very founder-led sales. Um, the founders and directors had strong networks, they did a lot of the selling for us, um, which is quite lucky, I guess. So as much as we thought we were 360 consultants, I feel it was— we were, but not true 360 consultants. It was more delivery. And when you— when I got a little bit more senior in my role there, you was expected to do more selling. But, you know, I didn't win that many clients, and if I did, it was, you know, from a LinkedIn message or an email, maybe getting— I guess you could call a little bit business development look, but I felt like I was getting a little bit lucky in terms of our approach. It wasn't systemized, you know, um, there wasn't a process to win clients. It was just, right, we need to win some more clients, let's try to send some more messages out on LinkedIn. So if you ask me what my sales process was back then, I couldn't tell you what it was. I couldn't tell you. Like, it was— we didn't have a process. It was, shit, we need some more clients, let's do what we can to get them. Message people in your network. Send a few messages on LinkedIn, send a few mass emails out and see what happens. And we, most of the time, we weren't successful. So when I mean having to learn to sell, it was like building a process of actually winning clients that's repeatable. Especially I'm going to win a business— when— if I'm going to run a business and I'm going to be hiring people down the line, I had to build a process that worked for me that other people can follow going forward as well.

Yeah. So when obviously you would have been aware that you had to win new clients to start this journey? Like, how did you— what was like version 1 of like how you're going to approach it? Was it like, do you know what I mean? Like, how did you think about— because you would have been aware that obviously what it sounds like, and you was quite honest, and you're being honest now in terms of like actually looking back, was I doing proper sales? Probably not, right? So you're being honest there. But like when you first started, how was you initially approaching it? Was it how you've always done it, like reaching out to people, LinkedIn, these things?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I first started, it was, yeah, following what we've tried to do in the past, which was like messages on LinkedIn. In the beginning, I leveraged my network, obviously. So I went for— I obviously had a clause in my contract, had to be careful when I couldn't go after business I've worked with previously. So it was like, who have I had contact with? And we'll go on to Black Excellence Network in the future, but it was like leveraging that network as well, um, contacting people that I've spoken to in the past, getting introductions, referrals. That's what it was about in the beginning. Um, but there was no real outbound sales because I feel that I'd never done it, like I said to you. So it was, um, I was a little bit— I think I was a bit naive when I first set up, if I'm honest with you. I thought I'd win more clients in the beginning. I thought, well, I've got this network, you know, I've done all right at Weitzer, um, and you know what, I can just probably use that in the beginning to win the first few clients, make a few deals in the beginning, and then the rest will follow. Um, but I got a reality check.

How long did it take to do your first deal?

First deal didn't take too long. It was with— actually, it wasn't actually with someone in my market. We did, um, it was a bit of a rogue placement with like this insurance tech, insurance business. Um, but that was around 2 months in. Yeah, very small deal.

I feel like I had a dinner this week with a group of, uh, solo founders. And what I mean by that is it's just them. There's no Some of them have one or two people, but mainly it's just them. Um, sometimes at the beginning, I don't know how you feel about this, like you've got to say yes to stuff, right? You've got to just try and chase the money sometimes at the start just to at least get you going, you know, have something to start speaking to people about. Yeah, because I think sometimes even if you listen to this podcast, I'm mindful of it, like you can get advice from someone like you who's like, you've got to stay niche, you've got to stay focused, but we can't get across the reality.

That went out the window, man. Like, it was like, we need to make some placements as soon as possible. I think more from a confidence thing as well, you know. I've gone from, gone from working as a consultant in a business where I'm making regular placements, um, every month, to going 2 or 3 months without making a placement, or on the verge of going 3 months without making a placement. And you start thinking, this is— I'm not— this is like, I'm not used to this, I mean. So I think it was about getting some money on the board and just getting some confidence that, yes, this is how it feels to close a deal. This is how, you know, bringing the memories back, um, and, um, and hopefully like it pushes me on to do some more going forward.

So would you say if you're— if someone's listening to this right now, uh, like have a plan at the start and keep trying to think about what your plan is, what maybe over the long term what you really want to be focused on, what your niche is, what you want to be known for, but at the beginning be willing to be agile.

Yeah, 100%. Like I think that's just entrepreneurial anyway, isn't it? I think like, um, doing what you can, uh, in moments. I remember my, my investor actually says, he says, um, what's a crisis? A crisis is, uh, no clients and no, no pipeline. I guess in recruitment that could be classed as a crisis, right? So technically you're in a mini crisis when you set up, you know what I mean? Not, it wasn't trying to scare me or anything, but in a moment of crisis you go harder, right? You push harder, you sell, you sell harder. You do what you can to make revenue, whether that's working with your niche or working with other industries just to try to win revenue. So I guess in the beginning, um, because you're in a mini crisis, do what you can to get out of it. I know crisis sounds bad, but you know what I mean?

Yeah, totally. Yes. And you've just gotta— yeah, you've gotta be aware of that. That's part of the entrepreneurial journey.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you look back at those as well. I look back at them like, I'd never work with that client now. But yeah, in that moment when we made our first placement I was, I was buzzing. Felt good.

Yeah. And it's like, yeah, like you said, there's a lot of good things that you get from that. The confidence.

Yeah.

Getting those first out of the way, the first invoice out, the first deal done.

Yeah.

Um, so what— let's sort of fast forward then, because I think a lot of founders who are still founder-led sales, it's there, maybe a couple of people or just them, how they're going to achieve their goals this year is by getting good at selling. It's just the reality of it. Um, Of course, most people, uh, not everyone, but most people will have like the background like you did where you worked for someone or different companies, you built up a network, and if you're a great recruiter, that network will come back to you. Yeah, I think that's always a great sign when you go on your own, and I'm sure you've had this where someone says, no, you helped me 3 years ago, like, you know, I'm now hiring, could you help? Like, that's such a great sign that you did a great job. Um, and if you've been a great recruiter, that will happen. But if you want to not be in a crisis, you've got to get good at selling and you've got to get good at always trying to give yourself the best chance of having a healthy pipeline. And if that deal doesn't close, that isn't the end of your month, end of your quarter, because you're just relying on one deal, two deals. So why don't you describe your, like, your approach to selling now then? Like, how— and I'm sure this is always evolving like it is for me. So what is it? What does this look like today? Like, how have you got better? I've seen your post around cold calling and sharing things, so What's your sales process today? Let's talk about that.

Yeah, so the sales process right now, I think in the beginning, uh, just take it back one, is I had to, um, I had to learn to sell, I think, begin before I built a process out. And I think it was about building confidence in myself, uh, in selling. So I just, I would do software sales recruitment. So, um, there's tons of, um, videos and content that I see on LinkedIn about selling and sales process. So I thought, well, I need to put myself in the shoes of an SDR that works in software sales. That's what I felt like. I'm an SDR right now, you know. I need to create— I need to book meetings and I need to close deals, um, I need to build, um, pipeline, etc., etc., right? So for me, it was about let's strip things back. The emails that I was sending when I was working for my previous employer, were they the right type of emails? No, it wasn't concise enough. They wasn't They didn't follow, um, I guess the, the right sort of framework that a good cold email has. So it was around what does a good cold email look like and what does a follow-up look like, what does a sequence look like. Um, also what platform am I going to use to send emails out. Then it was cold calling. I think the biggest one was I just, I knew, working with my investors and it was talking about the number of calls and pitches and conversation you need to have per day, it was like I need to learn how to cold call. And I was watching tons and tons of videos on best cold calling practices, but main thing I need to do is just get on the phones. Yeah, just get on the phones. Yeah, I will look back now on how much better I am from cold calling. Yes, I've watched loads of videos, and yes, I've, um, made my pitch good, and you know, I've got a good opener, and— but it's repetition really that's got me to where I am now. So yeah, in terms of sales process now, um, it's basically creating a list of non-negotiables, and every day, uh, or every week, or every month, whatever um, and hitting those. And I think it's down to conversations. So the number of conversations I can have per day is going to increase the likelihood of us winning more opportunities or forward actions or jobs or meetings booked. Yeah. So sales process at the moment is a combination between, um, emails and, well, digital outreach, which will— you know what, I'm not massive on email outreach right now. I don't think it's delivering that many great results. So for me, it's building a process and a sequence. Me and my SDR, we're building a sequence now which does include email, but we're not going too heavy on it. So it's mainly LinkedIn messages, whether that's a direct message, a voicemail— sorry, a voice note, um, a video, which we're quite big on, cold calls, and then some email in there. So, and if I'm being completely honest with you, if I said exactly what our process is right now, it changes probably from week to week, you know what I mean? So it's hard for me to say this is exactly what our process is, um, but it involves those sort of pillars.

I think the fundamental thing is that you'd be surprised how many people— I think I always like— I'm sure you see this, but I would see this even more because the amount of different recruiters that I speak to. But you really are at an advantage because of the market that you serve, the sales market.

Yeah, yeah.

Because like there's a lot of things that I'm sure you're— you take from that or learn and then, you know, put your own spin on it. Like, so many— if you're listening to this right now and you don't have at least like an agreed process with yourself on how you take a target client to trying to speak to them, like, you're making it even more difficult for yourself. So what I'm talking about here is like what you're just saying, having a sequence, a cadence, whatever you want to call it, to agree that when you— when you can say to yourself, I've given that a real go.

Yeah, that's, that's it.

You know, I mean, a lot of people don't have that.

No, that's, that's it. That's what I meant about the process isn't like exactly the same each time. It's more around have we ticked those boxes um, and I think unless you've called them X amount of times or you've tried the out-of-the-box approach, which may be a voice note or an, or a video, um, then you can't say that's a dead, a dead lead yet. So it's about being creative, um, and as you said, like, making sure we tick those boxes of those different types of outreach and making sure they've all been hit before you say, right, let's park that one.

Yeah, yeah. And what, what do your non-negotiables look like right now then?

Yeah, so daily, um, I mean, mine, I'm trying to stick to— it's hard as a leader, but if I've set my team non-negotiables, so I should have them as well. So I'm trying to have at least 10 conversations per day, um, at least. And that could be, uh, mainly split between sort of 5 to 8 client pitches, and then the rest of that I'll be speaking to candidates as well. And then each week I want to have at least— we call them forward actions. Have you heard of that term before?

No.

A forward action would be I've called a client and he or she has said, um, appreciate your approach. Let's, for example, I had one last week. Appreciate your approach, we're not hiring right now, give me a call in August, potentially we've got a conversation there to have, right? So then I say, can I call? Like, cool. So I wanna, I wanna agree to me calling you back. Beginning of August. You happy to take my call? He or she says yes. Forward action. Yeah. Or another forward action could be, um, hey Niall, uh, I had one a couple of weeks ago. He says, um, we're pitching a candidate, and he says, um, the candidate sounds great. He says, our talent team are working on this for now, but they are struggling. He says, Niall, if you come back to me in a couple of weeks' time with this same candidate, um, I've got a meeting with my CRO we can take this candidate to the talent team and we can create a case. Forward action. Do you know what I mean? It's not right now, nothing's—

that's a good thing to measure.

Yeah, I haven't closed the deal or anything, you haven't booked the meeting, but it's something to follow up on. And the more forward actions that I create, the more meetings I'm going to book. Yeah. So yeah, it's about working backwards basically. The meeting— the job I want to win is a meeting booked, then it's a forward action, and then it's a conversation.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

And you'll be like— I, I'm always interested to hear people say what their like non-negotiables are, or these things. Oftentimes it is conversations or video call meetings. So I think, yeah, like if you're, if you're having those, uh, then everything else should normally take care of itself if you're doing the, the great things. Great, like asking good questions.

Yep.

Getting information. You said that you've, like me, like probably a lot of us, you've consumed a lot of sales training content. What's like, because I've got a few things what, what's like the things that you've taken from that time that you use most of interest? Because I'm sure there's like things that maybe you always include in maybe your approach or a meeting. Yeah, it's probably my, um, uh, so like for me, for example, big one for me is, um, like upfront contracts. Like that, that's like a big non-negotiable for me in terms of, uh, like getting things out early in front. So any meeting that I have, I've just got a bit of a a row of things that I agree with them, which is how are we for time? Um, have we got a hard stop?

Yeah, that.

Then it's like, I'm gonna ask you, you know, difficult questions. Are you happy for me to do that?

Yeah.

As we're having this conversation, um, you know, I might not be the right fit for you, or, um, you might learn— think actually this isn't the solution for me. You're comfortable telling— send me no. Um, and, you know, before we finish, let's make time to agree what we think is the best next step. Happy with all that. Like, that, that's like, for me, is something that I stick— like, I always use. Yeah, that I've learned. That's one of the things. I don't know if you—

because mine's probably more on the outbound approach. So like, um, cold calling techniques, openers.

Yeah, the classic, like, everyone hates it, the permission.

I've got a permission-based one. Yeah, it— and it goes back to what you said about me selling to salespeople. So it basically goes like this, and kind of giving everybody my offer, but, um, maybe they can't deliver it as well as me. But basically it's, um, so it's like, uh, hey Hishem, um, we haven't spoken before, but from one salesperson to another, can I grab 20 seconds of your time? Just tell you why I'm calling today. Yeah. And I got it from Problem Prospecting.

Yeah, yeah, I've been through that with Ben.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the yellow one.

Yeah, yellow book.

So I took a piece—

oh, sorry, sorry, take that back. No, it's not with Ben. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, it's, um They, they ran a business which was like, uh, listening to calls and stuff like that.

That's it.

It might be a Lego maybe that they brought it, but I might be wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Um, okay, so I took a piece from that.

Nice.

And I took a piece from some other videos I was watching and I kind of made my own, put my pitch together. And, um, yeah, I think stuff like that, or even on the call, um, being confident enough to just keep the conversation going by asking more questions. For me on a call the Holy Grail is to win the job, isn't it? But how many times—

some people would argue that.

What do you mean?

So, so I did a session on this yesterday. So some people would maybe say the Holy Grail would be uncovering that they have a problem that you can fix.

Okay.

Rather than— because even, you know, they may have a job, but that doesn't mean that you're true.

Yeah, you haven't got this.

So that's why I just— that's why I said that. Yeah, you could come off the call and be like, I got a job, and it's like, yeah, but actually what Or you could say, well, the last time they hired, it took them 30 days to hire, and this was the impact.

This is what I was going to get to. So like, I think, yeah, I guess what I mean by that is if you came up, if you called someone and they said, yep, I want to sign you 25% terms, I've got a job for you right now, let's book a meeting next week, let's go from there. Like, that would be, yeah, you know what I mean? It's like gone to heaven, you know what I mean? But how often is that really happening? So I think what I mean by that is, what do you want to get out the call? Each call, it's like, can I just get information? That's the main thing. So even if the person's pushed back and said they've got a talent team or they're not using agencies right now, or— I'm going to try to get information. So, okay, cool, the candidate I just pitched to you, does it sound like what you'd be looking for? No, actually, Nile, we're looking for this. All right, cool. And have you hired— have you used agencies in the past?

Yeah.

Or have you made a hire recently? Or have you got any roles that you're really struggling with to fill? Information. Because I might not close him or her on that call, but I can go back to them with a follow-up because I've got the information. So I think what I did learn from the videos I was watching from sales and cold calls, it wasn't about trying to close everyone right now. It's use that conversation to get as much information as possible to leverage it later on.

Yeah. And that's just something you get comfortable when you're doing that.

Yeah. Repetition.

As I said, it's just repetition. Yeah, you have to.

It is.

Yeah. So I think the big thing that you have to get comfortable with is just challenging that initial response.

Yeah.

And challenging might not be the right word, but like, just because Niall said, oh, we're not hiring at the moment, doesn't mean that's, that's fact. Yeah, right. So it's like, no, you know, when you said you're not hiring at the moment, does that mean that you've, you know, filled your entire quota? You like, do you know what I mean? It's asking that other question.

Yeah, if you get better at that, like you said, I asked one the other day and he says, um, we're not hiring again this year. And I was like, is that your financial year or this year? It's not financial year. All right, so when's your financial year end? It's June. All right, so you're hiring after June? Yeah, we're hiring in August. All right, you know what I mean? We're hiring again this year. So I think I could have easily just gone— maybe what I would have done in the beginning um, is as I just said, okay, cool, well, I'll call you back in January 2025.

Exactly. I think that is the key thing. It's like, can— and then the, the great recruiters will then use that information the next time because then you can be even more relevant. Yeah, more memorable.

Yeah.

Um, and how many recruiters will then actually use that information? A big percentage probably won't. But if you're then showing up and saying, hey, it's Niall again, may not remember, we spoke last time, you said if you had this person selling this technology and this experience, you'd really like to hear from me, so I've got this person. Yeah. That's when it's like, yeah, bang on, you know what I mean?

Yeah, so I think, yeah, I think that's what I probably learned the most. Love that.

So let's, um, why don't we go into these 10 things then? Let's, let's break these down, cuz I'm sure you thought about these. I've got the list here.

You did it in order?

Oh, uh, did you— was it in order that you did? I just put—

I just, I just did 10 random— did not random.

It's not like one's more important than the other?

No, no, no, no.

Okay, sweet. Let, let— we'll just go through it. So I will— I'll do it backwards, front, cuz I think this was the first one that you did. So 10 things that you do differently if you started the journey. The first one that you posted was accept that it's okay to be shit. Talk me through that.

It is, it's, um, it's a whole Mozzy thing. He always talks about, um, he's like, uh, and I love, I love it, what his content, and I think it's so true. It's like, um, if you've never done anything before why do you expect to be good at it? So when you set your own business up, you're doing all of these things for the first time, you know, little things— invoice chasing, accounting, hiring, finding an office, um, everything. It's all new. So what I'd— what I'm big on— anyone that knows me, I beat myself up probably way too much in terms of expect too much of myself. So in those moments where I was trying or doing something new and I wasn't good at it, I'd start doubting myself a little bit. Or, you know, be— even the cold calling, like, you know, I was poor in the beginning. Um, but you've never done it before in your life, so why would you be good at it? Do you know what I mean? Why would you be any good at it? And if you've done 10 calls, you know, wait until you've done—

it's good. Yeah.

So I think that's the main one.

We'll get back to the episode in just one minute, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. The problem with most recruitment CRMs is that they are just a database of records, meaning they become just one of the many tools that recruiters use every day. Like with all systems, the records are only as good as the data being captured. Our sponsors Firefish know that for agencies to win faster, data needs to be at the heart of their business, making your CRM the single source of truth. With over 10,000 records created and updated every day, and 85% of placements from existing candidates, Firefish enables recruiters to enrich and engage their data, equipping you with real-time insights needed to win faster. To learn more about Firefish and take advantage of an exclusive Recruitment Mentors Podcast offer, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast when speaking to the Firefish team. How have you— because I can really relate to that. And if you'd speak to my partner, she'd definitely agree. Like, how have you got better at that? Because I, I find that hard. Like, I, I find it so— obviously I'm very aware that it's also a good thing.

Yeah.

Like, not get high on your own supply and be like, yeah, it was a good event, but I know this could have been better. Like, that's what I think about. So like, I don't know how you find this now, but where this really comes to life for me, I am trying to get better at it. But when someone says, oh no, like, how's business? 'ness, my mind goes straight away to like, what's the shit that's gonna work?

Yeah, I'm like that.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm like, it's all right, you know? I'm like, it's all right. Um, how have you—

have you got better at that, or is it a consistent thing in terms of, like you said, like really beating yourself up?

I think I was talking to someone last night at this— about this at an event, uh, that we were in. And, um, I think what I need to try and do is separate— if the business is doing poor, it doesn't mean Niall Simpson's doing poor. And I think that's maybe what I'm trying to protect myself sometimes when someone asks me that. It's like, I'm like, um, so I'm like, how's business? And I'm thinking, I almost think this— how the business performance reflects on how I'm doing. So I'm almost covering myself by going, it's all right, like, you know, we're doing all right. Because I don't want them to think— I don't know, it's hard to explain. I think I'm just, I'm too hard on myself because, yeah, I see the business— if the business is performing, now Sims is not performing. But what I need to do better at is look at the businesses separate. To what Nile Simpson's doing. Nile Simpson's actually doing a great job. He's trying, he's doing what he can. If the business is behind, then that's fine, it'll get there. Yeah, so I think, um, when I'm in conversations, when people are saying, you know, how's business going, I think I'm quick to, um, I'm quick to say things like, we could be doing better, or we're doing all right, um, because I'm almost protecting myself in a way.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that's just really relatable. But yeah, my, my mind— I feel like I've got, I've got better at what you're talking about, but it's still hard.

It's hard.

Yeah, especially when it's just hard in it because like you'll, you'll have wins and you're like, this is unreal. Yeah, I'm, I'm— yeah. And then you'll get that company, that client will go, no, unfortunately we're gonna go the other recruiter. And then this voice starts creeping in like, no, you're not that great. Yeah, you're not that good. Like the business is going to fail, literally, do you know what I mean? So it's like, I can defo—

it's actually crazy how much, like, I think, I think it's maybe an entrepreneurial trait. I mean, being driven comes with this sort of, um, beating yourself up a lot. But, um, it's crazy sometimes where I'll be like telling myself I'm not good enough, but I know I am, you know what I mean? Maybe going through a bit of a period where, you know, a few weeks haven't gone the way planned, but look at the whole— look at the bigger picture. What happened the month before that, a month before that, you know? You know you're going to get out of it.

Yeah, something that's helped me from— because I'm— I, uh, if you were to go on my YouTube here and subscribe to and watch my hormones, is up there, mate, for sure. But, uh, something that I've done that might be helpful, and I think he shared it when he was talking about one of the, um, stuff when he's talking about sales, um, and I've got it in our like sales playbook area. I've just called it— it's a bit cringy, but I've called it like positive sales juice, and it's all of our testimonials. And like the positive impact that we've had. So what, what's helped me is it's so— you're so quick to forget like the, the good things that you've done because we're so— I don't know, we're wired to think about the negative things or be aware of those things or put more focus on those. So that's something that's really helped me is like sometimes when I'm maybe being really hard on myself or I've had the knockback, is go to that folder where I've got customers saying great service, great things, you know what I mean? That's massive because that's evidence. Yeah, that's That's factual.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's not like— yeah, it's not made up.

Yeah, maybe I need to—

yeah, probably to get like some screenshots of like text messages or something. Next one then was, uh, I can definitely relate to this: say no more often.

I think that was again just being a new entrepreneur and feeling like you have to be, um, busy and, you know, have all these plates spinning. You know, a good entrepreneur has got all these plates spinning. Oh, Mozzy, go back to Mozzy. He always says as well, he says, um, focus on— don't try and build 10 businesses, build one great business, and then maybe you can branch out. I'm not saying I was trying to build 10 businesses, but, um, I was just trying to do— when I had the business, I've got a community that I'm running, and it was saying yes to all these things. I almost felt like it felt good to be busy. If I was busy, then I was being a good entrepreneur, but I wasn't focused, I wasn't dialed in on certain areas. Um, so I've learned that now is to just be careful. Like, for example, event opportunity— people say, oh, Nile, um, you know, you should do this event for this. I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's a good idea, good idea. Next video, I'm the one that's gonna organize it, you know, and I've got to put it all together, and it's just taking time out of other things. So I've learned now to be more like, is this really gonna positively affect the business? Is it what we're focusing on? I've got much better at being goal-driven. I thought I was goal-driven before, but I'm much more goal-driven now, and it all becomes from working backwards. If you read the book The One Thing Yeah, um, that's big. It's one of my favorite, like, yeah, most— I think everyone's got that book that really relate to and talk about all the time. That's the thing. And, uh, he says at the beginning of the book, he says, if you try to catch how many rabbits, how many do you catch? So if you try to chase how many rabbits— if you try to chase 2 rabbits, sorry, how many would you catch? How many did you catch? It's none, right? Yeah. Um, and also in there he talks about the one thing in the framework of building goals, and it's like the yearly goal Uh, go back after that as a quarterly goal, back after that as a monthly goal, then it's the weekly goal, then it's the daily goal, then it's hourly goal, you know. So I think now when people ask me to do things, um, like an event or try a new opportunity, I've already got my quarterly rocks or my monthly rocks that I want to achieve. Is that going to positively affect them or is it going to take time away from them? If it's going to take time away from them, then the answer is no.

Yeah. And if you're listening, you don't know what those rooks are or what the big goal is, that's, that's what you need to do. That's the first thing that you need to do.

100%. Just sit down, like, um, even the beginning, if you don't have any goals, it's hard to know which direction you go, isn't it? So if even just— even if your yearly goals is hard to create, just make what do you want to get out of this quarter, and then look at those quarterly goals. And then I can look at that and I can say, right, what, what am I going to do this month that's going to affect those quarterly goals? And as I said to you, go back, what am I going to do each week to affect those monthly goals? And Like I said, I think it just makes decision-making much easier, isn't it?

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, something that I've implemented this month— I was telling people about it this week, so again, haven't, haven't like perfected it. Again, inspired by Hormozi. This is proper big. Yeah, he did a video on it recently where like carving out— I literally have the block in my diary is called the one thing task. So obviously, I mean, you have a small team So like what I found myself, if people are listening and they have a small business, I'll be able to relate. Or even if you're employed, to be fair, how many times have you got to the end of the day and just felt maybe exhausted or like, what have I actually done today? Yeah, right. And like, I had too many days like that. And if I was being honest with myself, I didn't do anything that was moving the dial forward, moving the business forward, or helping me get closer to those rocks. So I've carved out, um, and I've been disciplined with it, of me being honest, 90% of the time over the last month. And I've seen the impact of it where from 8 till 9 before the team gets in, um, I have all, all I'm doing or all I'm allowed to do is a task that's on that one thing list. And they're things that I feel like are going to help me get closer to my quarterly thing goal. Because especially when you have a small team, you get dragged in different, um, places. So I think even so, then that's like 5, 5 hours each week that I know I'm spending on just trying to move things forward.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's something that I've implemented recently with that in mind that has enabled me to get things done that has been on like the to-do list for a while.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Those things.

Yeah.

Have you got, um, have you got better at saying no?

Yeah, much better.

Yeah, yeah. Like what, just like professionally and personally, or like—

Yeah, both. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought he was getting into that. Um, yeah, man, like even personally, just say no to like nights out, or I don't want to go to it, you know, I don't want to come to your party, you know what I mean? And, um, me and my brother talk about a lot, it's like people pleasing. So a lot of the time, how many decisions do you make in your life that are based on trying to please other people rather than what you want to do? And that goes back to business as well. Um, you know, people coming— someone coming to me with an event idea is— I don't think that— I think the event's okay idea But was I just saying yes to it to keep that person happy? And probably, yeah. So like business and personal, just more thinking about being a bit more selfish, you know? Do I want to go to that night out? Do I want to go to that, um, whatever it is, that event? No, I don't. So I'm going to say no to it. I'm going to let you down, not in a bad way. Just look, this— I ain't got time to do this right now. I've got other things to focus on. And I actually think the more you do that, the more people expect— like, respect it. In the beginning, when you you've gone from like saying yes to everything and then you start saying no, you get a bit of like— people start giving you a bit of shit.

Yeah. Um, has that affected like— so how has that affected— I'm just curious, I'm just asking for myself here, but like, has that affected like your social circle a bit since it's been—

yeah, I think, I think a lot of people, um, look, I still call them friends, but there's a lot of people that— and you stopped drinking, haven't you? So you've probably seen all the content around like going sober and stuff. And how there's people that you thought were friends, drinking friends. Um, now again, I'd still call those guys friends, but we didn't really do much more than just go out and drink together. So I guess in a way, yes, it has affected things in terms of how often I see those people. I'm not saying— I, I went 9 months without drinking last year. I thought I was gonna just be sober forever. Started drinking again, but not nowhere near like I used to. Um, so yeah, I think it does affect things a little bit because people who you used to see in certain situations, certain situations you don't see anymore. So yeah, yeah. What about you?

Yeah, I think, um, I mean, I'm just really grateful for like the close friends that I do have. Yeah, I think if I didn't have that— I was telling you obviously when we had breakfast, like, um, I'm— yeah, I just feel really grateful that I have like 6, 7 really close friends who of similar-minded. A lot of them, bar one, um, are on an entrepreneurial journey. So for me, if I add people into like my social friendship group now, I feel like they've got to add to it. Yeah, rather than, um, yes, I don't know, I feel like that if I didn't have that, it'd be different. I probably would say yes more because you just need to try and build. Yeah, that's what I'm really— not everyone has that.

So yeah, I think I'm lucky in that sense as well. I think you say maybe just me, right? Yeah. So I think luckily they got to a point now I'm 31 and, um, and I've got my core group of friends.

Um, because you may not speak— you're probably going to speak to them a lot less, maybe see them a lot.

Yeah, when you do, what do you do?

Yeah, it's a lot more— there's a lot more depth to it. So that's—

so you don't need to be— you don't need to get pissed and stuff.

It's more about quality over quantity than me. But I think one thing I was just going to share professionally was, again, you do have to get better at saying no. It's just the reality of it. But some, like, some good framings that I've used recently are things like, um, uh, no, because really trying to hit our H1 target. Yeah, we're behind. Like, just, you know, and people will respect that.

Yeah.

So I know people do find it hard to say no, but adding things in there like that, like, I'm really trying to work hard to hit a target right now. I'm not doing anything outside beside until we hit our target.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

I think that's it. It's given the context of why it's— because you could If you just said, no, I'm not coming, I guess it's kind of like, um, you think you're better than— yeah, yeah. And even though you don't, I guess maybe it can come that way if you put yourself in their shoes.

So focus on the inputs instead of the output.

Yeah, this came actually from my investor, Mark. Um, but also it's in the, um, what's that book called? Start It.

There we go, there we go.

Start It. I like all books, I start them and not finish them. Um, but yeah, it's, uh That goes back to just the beginning when things were new, things were tough, and it's like you get a little bit impatient as well as a business owner. Um, you hear stories of other business owners just flying from the beginning, so you start maybe looking around and comparing a little bit. But all you can control is the inputs, like the daily inputs. You may have seen my LinkedIn posts, um, hashtag win the day a lot. My favorite phrase, because it's like, just focus on today and then the rest will happen. You know, if you focus, you get the best out of one day, you get the best out of Tuesday, and so on until Friday, something's gonna happen, you know what I mean? But if you look at the bigger picture of like what's going to happen this quarter, then that's where you get a little bit like worried. I've done it recently, you know what I mean? We had— it was coming to the end of the quarter and it wasn't performing that well, but we had a strong pipeline, um, we had a good number of jobs on Like, all we had to do each day was just make sure that each one of those candidates was prepped properly, make sure everything was aligned in terms of salaries, etc., with the client, and the deals were going to come in. But just naturally, you start thinking, if we don't hit these deals, we're going to miss this quarter, this quarterly target. But now, if you just zoom in on the day and focus on the inputs and what can I get out of today, that's where you win.

Yeah, such a good reframe for recruiters because there's, there's a lot that you can control.

Yeah.

Then, then it is just combining that with— the best recruiters will know what those inputs need to be. So like, if you just focus on those things that you can control, that's it.

Yeah.

And then the next layer to that is like, do I know what those inputs should be that should— then if I know, if I show up, do those things, um, I'm going to give myself the best chance to get the outcome that I want. You may not always get it, but you've given yourself the best chance.

Yeah, it's a peace of mind as well. So if you know you've got these, um, non-negotiables or inputs you need to hit each day um, and you hit them, come out of the day, be like, well, I did what I needed to do. You know, even if you don't get any sales or meetings booked or forward action, CV sends, you did what you can today. You hit— you've won the day by hitting everything you needed to hit. And the next day, you know what it's like, you could do— you could do a little bit less, and you got even like— you could have like 3 meetings booked, or, you know, like 2 CV sends. And just how sales works, isn't it, sometimes.

Higher, quicker.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, should have hired quicker. Uh, I think it was a bit of an, um, insecurity, imposter syndrome, all those words you want to throw them out. Uh, it was, um, I'd never hired before, so I was only, I was only like an individual contributor. I wasn't, I didn't manage a team at Wiser. Um, so I think a little bit was like, am I ready? Am I ready to manage, or do I know how to manage, or what I'm going to do when I manage, you know? Can I deal with the, the challenges that management faces? Do I know what I'm looking for? Um, so I think in the beginning it was a little bit of resistance from me to hire because of those reasons. Um, then also just like a cash flow thing as well. I remember you said just looking at the bank and it's nice to see like a comfort blanket.

Yeah.

Um, and then thinking, no, that's— my costs are going to go up to this if I hire. Um, so I think in the beginning it was all of these kind of things in my head which were holding me back from hiring where I knew I needed to do it. Um, I will say there's an element of me still figuring myself out as well. Uh, maybe I didn't feel confident in hiring because I was still figuring a lot of like my processes that like will come onto the team I've got, um, in a little bit. But I feel so much more equipped to give them the guidance in terms of what to do because I've gone through it. Of the first year. Um, I said to you, I said to you before when we spoke off air, is that, um, I had to recreate myself as a recruiter, you know what I mean? So I've been doing that for the first year, 8 sort of 18 months of setting the business up. That's why I think we haven't grown as quick as I would have done, but I think going forward it's going to help. Yeah. So I think I had to reinvent myself so I was confident in hiring, but, um, maybe I still should have made some hires in the beginning just and just got on with it and just because I figured out— because even now I've made the hires even though a lot of this process wasn't put in place, we figured it out.

Yeah, I mean, whilst you take a short break, I wanted to take a moment to chat to you about one of our amazing partners, Sourcewell, the industry-leading recruitment engagement platform. I'm using myself, and I don't know what I would do without it. From building personalized messaging cadences across a variety of channels to automating follow-ups and data tracking straight back into my CRM, it's really made an impact in streamlining my workflow and most importantly, accelerating my my sales results. My favorite feature by far is the live feed. By being able to see in real time who's engaging with your campaigns, it enables me to prioritize my outreach with the most engaged prospects, which helps me get way more out of what I put in. So I'm going to be honest, if you haven't got Sourcewell and you're a recruiter, I really believe you're at a disadvantage. To find out more and see the platform in action, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. Because you listen to this podcast, you're be able to get access to an exclusive offer: free 50 phone credits, 50 email credits, which is at the value of circa £500 per user. So make sure you mention the Recruitment Mentors podcast and click the link in the show notes. And I do think it's personal, the financial risk you're willing to take.

Yep.

But it is, again, it came up in— I think it's something that a lot of independent founders will think about and wrestle with, because it is scary, right? You've got that money in the bank or whatever. It's a lot more comfortable to— like, you're in a lot more control of your spending. So I don't know if, if, um, Mark's helped with this, or like you figured out what your— how you— I do think it's personal, but have you thought about like, if we have at least, you know, a 6-month runway?

Yeah, yeah, we've built a proper— we didn't have that as in the beginning as well. We didn't have a proper like budget in place, but now we've got a budget where we've got hiring triggers Uh, we know if this happens, we hire. Um, so that's, that's much easier. And like, so what does that feel like?

A high level, is it like we've got, um, like just money-wise, if you'd like? Yeah, it's like happy 6 months, a specific amount of runway and pipeline. Okay.

Um, and, and forecasted, then it's like, right, cool, we can make these higher, maybe one or two. Um, so yeah, that, that's a bit— that's a lot more clearer. In the beginning, it was kind of like just putting a finger in the air, should we make it higher?

Um, would be good to figure that out for yourself. Yeah, what that is. Take more time off.

Yeah, man, it's funny I say this because, um, it's not holidays. Yeah, it's 28th of June, my birthday's in 2 weeks, and I'm gonna go away for my birthday.

Um, why do you think you haven't taken time off? Um, I mean, you said time off, what was that, like a week off? We said a long weekend.

I haven't even taken like more than— this is kind of a day off today. Yeah, but it's still kind of work, you know what I mean? When I say I haven't had time off this year, I haven't had a full— just shut my laptop, had a break. Um, so it's kind of funny that I've put that in there. Lesson learned.

You think that it's easier to give advice, isn't that? But do you think— is that because, like, let me know if you relate to this, right? I feel like you might, but sometimes I'm good with it, sometimes I really struggle with it. The other weekend I really struggled with it. And it was you take a day off and you know you should take a day off because you're trying to like, like, you know, I need to rest. We're on the time off, like no work today. But then you go into that day and then you start saying to yourself, you could be working. Yeah, it's hard. This is what— when you then take time off, you're then being hard on yourself for not work— for not working. Yeah, harder than that.

It's because, um, I struggle to take a day off unless I'm going somewhere. Like, I couldn't just be in Manchester at the flat just because you think you could be doing— go to the office.

That's what I mean.

I mean, that's why it's like, um, well, you can sit here and just watch Netflix all day. Go to the office, mate. Whereas like, if I had a holiday booked, um, and like a break, then it'd be more likely for me to take the time off. But, um, maybe this is the reminder then for Yeah, you know, I'm close to booking something. Um, H2, I'll be, I'll be going on a few more breaks. Uh, I think, I think I was just very, you know, I made, I've made the first two sort of real hires in the business. Um, onboarding them, they almost kind of, in the beginning I lost— there's a guy that I had in the team at the beginning of the year, he left. So the first sort of quarter was just me going fully like in on the business and like fully locked in. Having to get to a position where we can hire again. Made that hire in March, April, and then it was onboarding him for sort of 2 to 3 months. Then we got in a position where we could hire somebody else. It was like onboarding him now. So just because those hires kind of came kind of spaced out a little bit in the first half of the year, the onboarding of them too has made it difficult to just take some time off. But now I feel like they're up to speed, I'll be able to do it.

Listen to my gut.

Yeah, a lot of times, um, I've known something isn't right to do, uh, or just like, this doesn't feel right. But because I was new to being an entrepreneur, I knew to be the recruitment recruiter, business owner, recruitment business owner, um, I was taking advice from people thinking, well, they know more than me because they've been in the game longer. But I don't want to know what they've got, but, you know, and I knew, but then I'd say yeah, and then 3 months down the line I'm like, I've lost all this money on something. Yeah. Oh, I've spent all this money.

The more you listen to it, the more evidence, the more confidence you have to then listen to it.

That's it, that's it.

Sleep. Just sleep. That's what you put.

Just sleep. Yeah, sleep more. Um, yeah, I've got much better at this, to be honest. Um, prioritizing sleep because I realized that I can run— I need at least 7 hours. If I get less than that, I can feel it like sort of around 3, 4 o'clock, or even just my brain's not functioning as well, um, throughout the day. So I've tried to prioritize sleep over a lot of things because I get up and I go gym in the morning. Um, so what I'd be— I used to prioritize that, maybe going to train in the morning instead of sleep. So say if I went to bed a little bit later and I was working a little bit later, I still get up for the gym because I'm like prioritizing the gym. It's flipped now, whereas I'd prioritize sleep and just do a shorter workout.

Right.

Um, and I just feel much more— way more effective. So it's, um, trying to get as much sleep as possible, deep sleep. And yeah, it's worked.

Yeah, nice. It's key, isn't it? Obviously that's why things like, uh, Whoop exist.

Yeah, I've got, I've got a sleep app. One of Matt in my team, he just got a Whoop, and it's funny because he's coming in and he's like, I felt like I slept well last night, but my Whoop's saying I only got 4 hours. And I'm like, this is the problem, there's too much data.

Yeah, I think I, I had it and then the novelty actually wore off quite quick just because I think— I don't know, I spoke to my mates about this because, yeah, there's a few of them that have like an Oura Ring. I had it for ages.

Yeah.

And I think just because of the position that I'm in, it's like if I wake up and my readiness score is in red and I've got 5 pitches today, am I gonna say like, sorry guys, like, let's rearrange?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I'd rather just— do you know what I mean? I don't know. Obviously I understand it's important. I think for me I'll just try and stay disciplined with going to bed around the same time again.

That's the main thing.

That's the big thing that helps me.

That's 100%. I was gonna— I should have mentioned actually.

Yeah, I think, um, that's up feeling the best is if I'm getting up at—

what time do you go to bed?

Time, mate, I'll try and get in the weeks— I'm better disciplined in the week, that's the thing. So like, uh, aim to get to bed between 10 and 11, like that's when I'll go to bed and be sleeping. And then now it's— now it's like nice when you get up, um, it's a lot easier to get up at like half 5, 6, and then straight to the gym. If I don't get the workout in in the morning, then the chance of it happening Oh, different person.

Now I think like going to bed, for me it's, um, between half 9 and half 10. That's sort of time, that window. The best sleep I probably get is if I go to bed around 10, then I'm up at like quarter past 5, 5 o'clock.

Yeah.

Um, but it's funny because if I go to bed a little bit later, I'm still going to wake up at that time. So then you're having less hours sleep.

Yeah, that makes sense. Take more time to make decisions.

Yeah, again, that was, uh, maybe an ego thing or just thinking, oh, I'm a real— I'm a business owner now, so you gotta be really like make decisions quick. Um, or like, you know what it is as well, is I've always been like this where I've always got things to tick off to do. I've always got like a to-do list in my head or like decisions to make in my head. And my— I've always been like, how can I decrease the number of to-dos in my head or decisions to make? So if I've got a decision to make in business, I used to just be like, yeah, do this, and it's gone then. Do I move on to the next thing? It's almost like, you know, your tabs on you and your Chrome. It's almost like all these tabs in my head, how quickly can I delete them? So I'd make a decision quickly just to delete a tab, but then I haven't really thought into what I'm doing. So I told you earlier at breakfast I've made bad hires because I was just trying to quickly make a decision on someone.

So I really like this one: dedicate more time to business strategy.

Yeah, it's kind of like what you just said there around using those— that hour in the morning, um and just stop him. Like, stop for a bit.

How many times did you do that when you was employed?

Never.

Yeah, that's it. Because this is also a lesson for people who are— when you're in recruitment, I think it's so easy. And obviously the position you're in now, you have a recruitment business, but you're a recruiter at the end of the day. Yeah, you're generating a large chunk of the revenue. Um, but again, this is something I'm always trying to get better, but it's like that hour or 2 hours spent that week on thinking about how could you get more out of what you're putting in, or what worked this week, what didn't, what am I going to take into the, the next quarter— that on-the-desk stuff, that on-the-business stuff is so key.

Yeah, it's true, man. Like, like I said, it's just stopping thinking and like, well, what— where are the gaps? How can we fill them? How long is it going to take? Uh, what realistic goals can we set? Um, and you feel good when you do it, don't you? You're just like, right, I know where we're going now. Because every day is so chaotic and it's like you're reacting to things and it's crazy. But when you stop and it's like, well, we're spending too much time on this, you know, we're not spending enough time on this, um, and it brings real clarity just to sit down and look at strategy and like creating a budget like I've mentioned. Or, you know, I built a really good spreadsheet the other day on— I went into the office on Sunday and I built a really nice spreadsheet for our revenue tracker. And it was like, I can't believe it's taken me this long. I used to have a revenue tracker when I worked as a consultant wiser. And I didn't have one here, it was like more just inputting it into Xero. Um, now that's like in a forecast spreadsheet and everything, it just feels more like I know where we're going. Yeah, so just strategy is important.

Yeah, making time for that, even if you are a recruiter, is key. Yeah, worry less.

Goes back to what we're saying, isn't it? Just stop. It's gonna be all right, it's gonna be okay. Like, back yourself. I've got confidence in myself that things will be okay. Yes, you'll have dips But in those moments, don't overstress. Just be like, you know, you've got out of situations before, you can get out again.

There were the 10 things of that. Let's go into, um, the, the more like when we're talking about— obviously you've— you're obviously going to continue to learn, we all are. But tell us a bit about how you're now thinking in terms of team setup, because it is slightly— it is slightly different.

Yeah.

So obviously Breakers down that in terms of how you think about why it's giving you more confidence, why you're excited about it, why you feel like the way that you're doing things now does feel a lot more scalable. Let's go through that before we, um, finish.

Yeah, so, um, I think, uh, I don't think the 360 recruiter is dead, but in my experience I haven't seen it work. Maybe it's dead. I know it's a, it's a controversial topic. But I think for me it was like, how can I, um, split people's roles into really being focused on specific areas? And also taking a leaf out of, I guess, what software sales companies do. Software sales, from my understanding, they didn't used to have SDRs and account executives and CSMs and account managers. You used to have a BDM, business development manager, that used to do all of it. And then over the time they've split it out. So I'm thinking, well, why can't we do that in recruitment? So, um, what we're building is just trying to build a really sort of focused team that are on sort of delivery and client relationships, and a team that's just really shit hot at winning new clients, really sales-driven, taking sales approaches from the likes of software and using that in our world. But then on the recruitment side, just being excellent recruiters and delivering like world-class-like recruitment services. So it feels good. It feels like I'm sitting in the middle. We've got a guy, um, Matt, who's doing the SDR stuff, and he's made a really big difference, and it's just driving meetings at the moment. Hopefully he'll move into a BDM role and be full.

What sorts of meetings would he book in then? What's the— is it like an initial call, discovery call? Yeah, yeah.

So he'll take a candidate to market or to a client, and we're trying to be really focused on clients who— let's say we've got a client, a candidate that sold X, and he sold into retail, for example. Um, we'd find our best candidate that sold into retail, and we go and pitch that candidate. We'll try to be really like, this candidate's perfect for you. That does really open a lot of doors. They're interested. And a lot of the time, it's not that candidate that we actually go in with. It's that just opened the door for us. So it's using that as an approach to get me to meetings and create opportunities. And then Tom on the other side is doing some great stuff with like just finding great candidates for the jobs that we pick up. Um, but he also finds great candidates that we can take to Max. It just kind of works really well. And I'm sitting in the middle. I help Matt on the sales side and I help Tom on the recruitment side as well.

Yeah. And then what are some of the— on the— like, I'm sure it's a bit of a journey, but on the candidate side, how much of that process do you envision that person like managing, do you think, in the future? Is it qualification, everything up until— I don't know, like, how do you think?

Yeah, so I see, I see, um, us having— I see, I guess, Tom, or, you know, other people, uh, I guess he would move into a position where he's, um, managing the client relationship and then having sort of the final say on which candidates go forward and managing the sort of process with the candidates. Then underneath him, he'll have what used to call a researcher, or, you know, a resourcer, someone under him that's providing him the leads and for candidates and conversation and candidates for him to take into the clients, if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then on the BD side, just always generating meetings?

Generating meetings. Well, ideally he'd move into a role where he's closing the clients, closing retainers, closing exclusive terms, um, bringing those opportunities to the team, and then they're closing those deals, and he makes his— he takes his cut from that.

Yeah, I think then what I've, um, seen great recruitment companies do as well when they're set up like that is you also then really want to incentivize the salespeople to bring on good quality business.

That's it.

So then not only incentivize them on that, uh, first placement or that initial success, then they get a kicker on how much they spend with the company over 6 months.

Yeah, yeah, that's why, that's why I want— because it's like then you're gonna, you're gonna spot the the best clients that are in, and they're incentivized.

That— this is a big thing. You've got a— one of the best ways you can drive activities and behaviors that you want from your team is make like— are the incentives aligned?

Yeah.

Like, you're telling me that you want more of your team to do new business, but the commission structure is the same as if they're doing with you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, for example, he could make more if, if we make X amount of placements with that client, on the third placement or the fifth placement he gets a kicker.

Exactly.

I mean, because it's shown it's a long term clients, so he's going to look for better clients that we can make more repeatable business with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So like, yeah, that, that means like, I don't— I wouldn't necessarily— I don't think 360 is dead, but how many conversations I had with people to say it's been really hard to find someone that can do it all really well, like most people will say that.

I couldn't.

So like, yeah, most people will say that. So I do think actually it's like, absolutely, why would you not want to try and get your people doing what they're better at?

Yeah.

Like the way that you're speaking about it. Yeah, I just think that there'll be— I think especially with like AI now and everything, all the tools we have available, it's just like, what can— what low-level tasks are they maybe spending too much time on that you need to take away from them? Yeah, I mean, yes, I do think you should have that mindset regardless, because there will be things that your team is spending time on, like arranging interviews or— yeah, and CVs, or updating the database, or building lists. Should your 360 recruiter be doing No. Can you get other people to do that? Absolutely. So I think it's, it's having that mindset. It might mean that you change your process and how you do it, like you are. And I know plenty of businesses that have that approach and it's successful, and then they also have some 360s. But I think it is thinking about how can we— and I'm always thinking about this myself, and you will yourself— is like, how can— what can I do to make sure I'm spending my time on the high leverage tasks?

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Because updating the database, yeah.

There's only so many hours in the day, you know, and we know how quick days go. So it's like, how can we be as dialed in and focused on the things that matter to get the most out of the day? It goes back to win the day, as I said.

So, so anyone listening thinking about launching their own business, what advice would you give them, mate, before they set out? What are you saying? Let's wrap up there. What, what would you say to Niall before he set out?

Um, It'd be just get your— I mean, before you do it, obviously, I think there's the basics in terms of like what's your niche going to be, what's your process going to be in terms of winning clients. I said that, but I didn't have a process. I think, you know what, I think what it is is what's your plan going to be in terms of, um, what sort of business do you want? Do you want to be growing a business which has, um, you know, do you want to get to sort of 5, 10, 20 people, or do you want to be a solo business owner, or do you want to just build a small team? So then you can start working backwards from that. I'd also say, what's your plan in terms of— are you going to get investment or are you going to go out by yourself? Who's surrounding you to give you guidance? That's the key thing as well. Um, because I think I've spoke to people that have gone down recruitment business on— like, I spoke to people who've come out of sales and got into recruit— trying to run a recruitment business. But it's like, what— who— what advice are you getting? What— who's mentoring you? Um, what experience do you have in the recruitment game? So I feel like, look at what experience you have. Is that setting you up to be successful? If it's not, what can you do before you set up, or who can you surround yourself with that's going to support you to be successful? Um, if you're not going down the, the, um, the investment route, then make sure you have people who have been there before. That's the key thing. Um, because there's so many things that you think you know that you don't know that you'll have to come up against when you set up. So, um, I think that'd be the key thing. I think the It's hard for me to answer that question because I don't think I was set up that great, that great to go and do it, and I'm doing all right now. So I guess the key thing, the message I have for anyone that wants to give something a go like this is go for it, but just make sure you're trying to give yourself some things you can do. Give yourself— yeah, yeah, have a little bit of like, have people in your corner. That's, that's the key one.

No, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you, man. Appreciate it.