From UK to Dubai: How Tom Chick Built a $3M Recruitment Team from Scratch

Tom, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks very much for having me. Great to be on.

Joining me from sunny Dubai.

Very, very sunny. Yeah, no, it's perfect, perfect time of the year. So, um, a little bit different to back home, but, uh, yeah, can't complain.

So in preparation for this, what we decided we're going to do, uh, in this conversation which I think a lot of people are going to be interested in because I, outside looking in, I feel like— and you might have more friends in recruitment than I do— but I feel like outside looking in, in the industry, there's been two really popular places that recruiters have been moving to. One is the US, the other is Dubai or the UAE. Yeah. And you're someone that made that move. I'm going to give everyone a bit of a background, but what we're going to do in this conversation is we're gonna really break down— we've got 8 steps that we've mapped out together in terms of how can we go to a brand new country, completely different culture, a brand new market, and hopefully have a really good chance of succeeding. And as you were telling me before we started this, you're reaping the rewards of the risk that you took, and, you know, touch wood, you're on the cusp of having, you know, the, the big issue you've had in recruitment today, and you've been in it for nearly 15 years. So I've sat down with a lot of people, uh, that have gone to the US. I haven't sat down with as many people that have gone to the UAE. So really looking forward to breaking this down, uh, for everyone and really, yeah, hopefully getting the lessons that you've had to learn the hard way by being in the trenches.

100%, yeah, no, sounds good. So happy to share what I can.

So, just to give everyone a bit of a background, and then let me know if I get any of this wrong. So, you used to work at a company for, based in Surrey area for, you'd worked there for a decade. So, you sort of went on the classic journey, was a recruitment consultant, but by the time that you left, you was a sales director. So, just to give everyone a bit of a background, but let me know if I get any of this wrong. So, yeah, by the time that you left, you basically managed all of the new business and the account management functions. In that company. Yeah, you was also responsible for the contract part of the, the business. You know, the things that you had under your responsibility were things like client retention, new business, building relationships, expanding accounts. And you had around 10 people in those functions in terms of the BD and account managers. But you also work really closely with the delivery director and that part of the business. And it was all UK that you did, and it was your sort of world was telecoms and foreign security systems. Is that right?

Yes, yes, spot on. Yeah, it was, uh, all engineering space. Yeah, engineering telecoms.

Yeah, nice. So you did that for, uh, over a decade, and then in 2022 we took the leap to Dubai. You joined a business called Halion, and you joined them as a commercial director. They were and are a large contract business, or have a really solid contract offering. You know, your role there, you can fill in the blanks here, but just give people a bit of a background. You was getting back on the tools as a real sort of new business person. When you joined them, you were a sole contributor, and the sort of real purpose of your role was to target and win new logos, particularly more on the enterprise side, so larger accounts, so win some of the biggest companies in the region. And it was multi-sector. So it was a lot of, I think, technology. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can add to it. But there wasn't necessarily like you speak to companies about a particular like niche in the technology piece. You was, you know, understanding overall. We put here workforce solutions, so the overall workforce in these companies, and, you know, uh, can Halion, uh, support them, solve any problems. And you've been there now for 2, nearly 2 and a half years. You're a senior director now and I think you've got 4 people in your team.

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So what else you want to add on here? I've got enterprise sales and you've then got an enterprise delivery team. Do you want to just add a bit more color, I guess, on that and then we can sort of start getting into, into bits?

Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, no, cheers for that. Yeah, I left, I left Technical Resource in 2022. And yeah, as you mentioned, it was kind of a massive leap of faith, right? You know, you can feel extremely comfortable in a role. I've been there so long, you know, hitting all the numbers that you need to hit and then kind of think, why change, right? Why give that all up? Give up a job where you've kind of built a reputation, a brand in the market. You know, your clients know you and you know, you spend a lot of time doing that to go and do something completely different. And yeah, so it kind of got to that point and I thought, you know, if I don't do it now, then I'm never going to do it. And I could kind of see the landscape changing in the market that I was working in, which basically led me to think, look, if I'm going to go and do something different, where's the best place to do it? So started having to think, like, was it US? Was it kind of Australia or could it have been Dubai? And I kind of ended up making that decision. I'd been to the UAE a few times, had an amazing time here and had a lot of friends. And then, yeah, I started diving into it. And then, you know, kind of a couple of months later, I was, I got a role and it kind of ticked all the boxes and, you know, I made the move.

Yeah.

But I think that, you know, Changing industries can be extremely tough, right? It's, you know, you're, as you said, you've learned everything from scratch over a 10-year period. And then you kind of give that all up. But I could see the way the world was moving. And I thought, how am I going to get into tech? So, you know, this is where the money is. This is where the growth is across the world. It's got to be the best market to kind of get into. So I thought, if I'm going to change countries, change companies, why not change verticals as well?

Yeah, so I really respect that.

All came around.

And then in terms of the final bit of context then, and we're going to get into this in terms of what this actually means, but obviously your function, like when you joined it was just you heading it up, right? This was like a new function. Yeah, exactly. So in, you know, in 2 and a half years you've turned this into a $3 million business unit. Yeah, which is really impressive. You have— I've got a bit of a list here, but there's different— I'll put product suite here, and you know, we'll get into this. But we've got things like executive search, RPO, standing contract recruitment, managed services, mobilization, total outsourced solutions. So again, um, we're going to get into this, but definitely would have developed your sales skills and, you know, selling different product solutions. But I think in terms— if we were to look at the makeup of the type of business that you won, I've got here 8% large-scale transformation contract projects. Yeah, has been the big chunk of it, and then 20% of it has been sort of different perm projects, solutions that you've ended up selling as well. So is that all fair?

Bang on it. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so let's just break this down then. We, we've got, we've got sort of 8 steps that we're going to go through, right? Yeah, you're just talking about it there, but there'll be a few more bits that I want you to share. So we've got step 1 in terms of steps to succeed in the UAE, building an enterprise recruitment sales team, the first step that we've got here is adapting to a brand new culture and business. So you're just talking a bit about it there. I guess the thing that people might be curious about is, in, in your own words, in your own experiences, like, you've, you've always done the UK market. Like, how— if, if me and you were down the pub having a drink, I'm— I work in recruitment, did the UK market, and I'm like, Tom, like, how is doing business different in the UAE? Like, what comes to mind? How would you sort of explain that? Because I'm sure it's really quite nuanced, but what would be— what are the immediate things that come to mind for you?

Yeah, it's a great question. I think it was kind of something that I'd thought about, you know, before I made the move. Like, what would I— what am I going to expect? How's it going to be different? And I was 100% right, it is very, very different. But I think that one of the most important things is to be able to be very much aware of the different cultures. Selling to, you know, you might be down the pub in the UK doing business with someone or in a bar in London or wherever you're working. Out here it's very, very different. You know, you've got to respect different cultures. You've got to be prepared to be flexible, to understand exactly what's of interest to a client and to be able to find common ground with them. So I would say that being flexible to your situation and being able to be flexible to the kind of person that you're going to be meeting is a really important skill to have to be able to make this change. I'd also say, like, in a on a different note, that a lot of it can be the same. So the expectations of what you, what you think it might be, some of it is really quite similar. So, you know, getting that face time with people, you know, being proactive with direct BD, they're all things that are exactly the same. So you can bring those skills if that's what you use and what makes you kind of successful You can do the same here as well. But I think that it's just being more aware that there is different cultures here and being respectful of that because people are very proud of their cultures and backgrounds and people take their jobs obviously extremely seriously, that you just respect that and you can have great success.

So just curious then, obviously your world and what you've targeted as being enterprise clients, a lot of the people that you've ended up building relationships with over the last 2 and a half years, would you say they're more expats versus UAE nationals?

Yeah, again, um, so that, that's taken like a long time to, to kind of develop that skill set, I guess. And like building trust with UAE nationals, it takes time. When I first moved out here, it was I was thinking about how can I gain traction quickly? Who's like my ideal customer? And I was of course going towards that expat community because those people have also made the move. So you can quickly find common ground. They've gone through similar experiences. So it made it easier to like break down those initial kind of walls as such when you're selling. So like my first customer was a, you know, a guy from London, you know, ex-army, like very straight talking guy. And we quickly hit it off, like again, went for a beer and, you know, kind of used that to my advantage. Because what you need out here when you're building something, right, is referrals, it's a network. So why not kind of go to the low hanging fruit or go to the people that you know you're going to be able to try and build a connection with to then kind of leverage it. But over time, 100%, like, you need to spend time with the local nationals, and they're like all top people, very intelligent, you know, really successful people who really value getting to know people as well. So it's developed over time, and then from that, you know, has opened doors into kind of more government or semi-government client opportunities where you see a lot of the kind of UAE nationals.

Okay, fair, that's interesting. So it sounds like then with where you are now, is it what, like more evenly split? But maybe at the beginning you'd find yourself pitching, building relationships, speaking to people, decision makers that were typically expats versus UAE nationals?

Definitely.

Is that fair?

Yeah, no, 100% right.

So, so just on, just on the culture piece specifically then, just curious, some of the things that I've heard. So on the UAE national piece I guess twofold is the question. One, if I'm a recruiter going to the UAE market, I guess you can just comment on like your experience and the types of companies that you've targeted. But firstly, what are the chances that most of the people that I'm going to interact with, do business with, are expats versus UAE nationals? Is it actually going to be overall more expats, or is that wrong?

I'd probably say yeah, like you'll you're particularly in the UAE, right? Because my role encompasses Saudi, Qatar, these kind of locations. There's definitely like a pivot between the two countries in terms of like who you'll deal more with. So I'd 100% look, the UAE is a more advanced like expat community. I think most people know that, right? It's, you know, there's a huge percentage of expats living here and working here. So you're naturally going to deal with more. And there's a lot of senior decision makers are expats, which definitely helps. But then if your target market's KSA, Saudi Arabia, it flips on its head. And I'd say that 90% of the people that you deal with there are going to be Saudi nationals. So if you're talking UAE, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, more expats, 100%. But then if you're looking at like Saudi Arabia, which is obviously a massive growth market, for recruitment and the world in general, then you'll be dealing with a lot more Saudi national candidates and probably less expats.

Yeah, that's really helpful. Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that, but I think that would be a helpful insight for people because, as you said, if you're a good recruiter, you've been doing it for a good time, you've been successful in the UK/Europe market, I think you're right at the beginning. Like, a lot of it will be the same, uh, in terms of, you know, if you're dealing and building relationships and doing business with, with expats, right? And like you said, there's going to be more chance, there's going to be more things that you can go to that can help you build that trust, uh, that relationship, because they've gone through what you've gone through. Makes sense. What— okay, and then if we talk about the— a bit more specifics on the culture piece, because I know people are interested in this. What do you think of this perception of, do Saudi nationals like doing business with expats, or do they— do you know what I mean? Like, is that a thing? What's the thing there?

Again, yeah, that's something that, like, you've really got to kind of be there to kind of understand it. But look, I think there's obviously, without going into politics and kind of government connections, but the UK, or if you're a recruiter looking to come from Europe and come to the Middle East, there's always going to be that level of kind of relationships between those countries. It's been there for a long time. So it definitely helps. And there is a genuine level of respect between our countries. So that's 100% helped with the transition. But I would say, however, like in Saudi in particular, like having Saudi nationals on the ground with you to help you will 100% speed up your business. So we have a Saudi national team. So when we're, let's say, doing business or pitching a big bank in Saudi Arabia or a big family group or one of the PIF companies, let's say, it really is helpful to have a Saudi with you because, you know, they're still going through a massive transformation. And, you know, there is still an element of trust that you get with a, with a local person. But at the same time, they really do respect you know, working with Europeans or people from, you know, outside of the country for sure. So, but yeah, it can help having someone with you for sure.

Yeah. So we're not saying it's impossible by any means, but, you know, like, where you'd be naive to think that it's not going to be harder, right?

Yeah.

So like, and then a very specific question here, but what I've often heard from people is it is all about like you said, like FaceTime, getting in front of people, face-to-face meetings. Who do you know? Referrals. Oh, I know Tom, actually. Let me introduce you. That's going to give you credibility versus cold calling, transactional. Is that fair? Is that like— that's what I've typically heard.

Sorry, you— I missed the first bit. It just—

so yeah, I was just saying what I've— so is it fair to say then what I've normally heard is in terms of doing business with like Saudi nationals, um, or like adapting to that market, it's way more like face-to-face. I know Tom, let me introduce you. Um, referral coffees, you know, getting in front of people, leveraging who you know, who they know, and trying to connect the dots versus cold calling, um, speccing candidates, transactional Is that, you know, you could probably get some success that way, but is that going to— I don't know, is there going to be a lot of friction there in terms of us doing business?

Yes and no. I think like if I was to say that, you know, to my sales team, like, don't do cold calling and don't do speccing, like, that would just be kind of go against all my morals. But the primary goal, I think, for like an enterprise salesperson or anyone that's kind of looking to build a network from scratch is to get out and meet people. Like, at the end of the day, the traditional way of getting business doesn't change, yeah? And I think within the first few days of me landing in Dubai, I was pitching people to go and meet them for coffees or shisha or whatever that was, go and meet them for a round of golf, like, because ultimately, that's how you build trust, that's how you build relationships. And that's how you're going to get referrals. But in the background, I would, I would still say that those methods of speccing out and, and cold calling 100% still work. Um, and I think out here as well that less people are doing it to the level that they should be. So, you know, there's still recruiters that I work with and know in the market who don't get the face time that they should be getting and are probably not hitting the potentials that they could. Whereas I advise my team to be out of the office. Like, I don't want to see them at their desks. And if they are at their desks, they're selecting and looking at the right person that they're going to go and speak to next, to get in front of. And if that means going down and driving down to Abu Dhabi from Dubai, which isn't that far, by the way, for like a shisha meeting in the evening or a coffee at the weekend or whatever that might look like, it's 100% going to be worth their time. Or if it's getting on a flight to Saudi, you know, then go and do that. And we push that internally to get people to do that because that's going to get you that extra little bit of, you know, that extra push that you might need to get that client over someone else who's trying to just get a Teams call from wherever else in the world, you know.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that. I feel like we're just getting into it there, but, you know, our second step that we put on here, Tom, was like you had to adapt and learn a brand new market and a new industry, as well as we just spent, you know, the last 10 minutes talking about the different culture differences, which you've sort of shared your experience and insights on. But is it fair to say then that the way that you approached this was getting in front of people, trying to get meetings? I guess what people might be interested in is like, why would these people meet you? I think that, that can be sometimes what people will think, like, what, what value have I got to offer? I'm brand new in this market, I haven't got a track record, um, what have I got to give them? Like, I'm just curious to hear your take on like, how did you actually go about branding? Yeah, learning about a brand new market, new industry, because as I'm sure you agree with, yeah, like, being really confident in your expertise, in your market, in your industry is a really important edge. That you should strive to, to get and have as a recruiter. And you know, that, that's what you would have been building towards. You obviously have the last 10 years to look back at and go, you know, this is, you know, I did this, now I'm doing this. But how did you approach that beginning bit, uh, out of interest?

Yeah, um, I actually kind of used quite, I guess, a slightly different angle that was like, that I could relate to, to where I moved, right? Um, As I said, it's a massive expat community, and I think my first kind of outreach when I moved over here was kind of quite transparently saying, you know, I've literally just moved over from the UK. I've been doing recruitment for 12 years, helping large organizations grow and expand and become successful. I'm new on the ground here, and I'd be really interested in kind of building out my network 'And like, it would just be great to kind of meet with you to share insights on living here, you know, being successful here and kind of empowering people to make them feel important.' Do you know what I mean? But at the same time, really truly wanting to get to know them. So by approaching those kind of people and trying to share my honest, you know, honest feelings on moving over or changing markets, they were kind of really open to meeting. And I don't know if that would always work. Like, you know, you couldn't use that in London if you lived in the UK there, because you can't use that angle. But I think when you change your environment and you can really say, look, I am new, people are more open to doing that. But it's kind of like a really open place to meet people. And as I said, it's a transient place, right? The Middle East, it's a lot of people come and go. So in the short periods and sometimes that people live here, you know, everyone's trying to make friends, everyone's trying to do business, everyone's trying to be successful. You can meet people maybe slightly easier than you would in the UK and in some place in Europe, for sure.

Yeah, I think that's just really good advice. Like, yeah, I think you'd be silly not to lean into that. And it sounds like you obviously had a really good response out of like being transparent, honest, having the humility to go like, look, I don't have all the answers. I might not even have something to give you, but like, I'm in the shoes that maybe you wasn't at some point. Like, would it be a bad idea to meet up, see these things? So, so, interested then, what, what would be your— like, let's say that you reached out to, I don't know, a hiring manager in, in a business in that way. You're in that first, you know, 3-6 month period. Like, what, what was the mindset going into meeting at a pub or going somewhere or whatever? Like, what was your mindset and how would you— yeah, how would you go into those meetings out of interest?

Yeah, I mean, I would, you know, 100%, you know, my outcome was to get at least some form of information that I could utilize. Because remember, like, coming off a plane, like, you don't even know the client landscape yet. Like, you don't know who all the competitors might be of that company that you're meeting with. You're simply just trying to get out and ask questions. Obviously, I think it really helped working for like a really established brand as well, and that was really important for me when I was looking at the kind of company that I wanted to join. Because I think joining a company brand new, joining maybe a startup out here with no client, you know, network, let's say, or no name in the market would have been a really different outcome. So I was quite clear on like the kind of company that I wanted to work for, but, and that definitely helped me open some of the doors, right? But I think that, yeah, I had a clear outcome. I wanted to get some sort of information, whether that was information about the market, whether that was information about their company, information about them, you know, tracking where they might be moving to, what's going on in their current company, maybe even offer them some career advice, you know, because I've worked with execs throughout my whole career and I don't think that those conversations ever go away whether you move country or market. But yeah, I definitely had an outcome, right? It was to get information and hopefully see whether I could, you know, potentially lead to something or some business in the future for sure.

And then how did we— how did you go about learning a brand new industry? Is it just like dive in headfirst, ask questions, be curious? Use the internet, speak to— I don't know, was he speaking to candidates? Were you— I don't know, like, how do we learn the new industry?

I mean, that's a— yeah, that's a massive question. Um, I think it, it comes down to like your ability to, to kind of, I guess, take in information and want to learn. Um, I'm by no means like a tech expert, right? I'm 2 and a half, 3 years into doing IT and tech. But, you know, I had to be patient, but I had to put in the graft. I had to go and listen to YouTube videos. I had to speak to candidates. I had to read loads of CVs. You know, I was on LinkedIn scouring people's backgrounds and their histories to understand what kind of companies these people might have worked for. Because, yeah, I still need to learn that. And then by spending time with leaders and asking lots of questions, you know, I just started to pick things up, listening to resources and talent acquisition people around me, listening to other recruiters in the business. You just soak that information in. So you've kind of got to be a sponge, right? And you've got to be prepared to put in the graft in the early stages to want to learn. And I think that was obviously a massive part of me transitioning industries for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's no shortcuts to it, is there?

No, 100%. There's never a shortcut. There's a— I say, like, you can, you know, people say you can get lucky, but it doesn't work like that. It is always going to be a hard graft, 100%.

So talk to me about step 3. We wrote down here, understand the enterprise sales model and commit to it. So what was the plan always for you to focus on winning large enterprise clients versus maybe like mid-market, smaller companies? Was that always the goal and intention when you joined?

Yeah, I think, I think it depends on like the kind of company you're going to go for, right? And you're going to potentially work for and what their goals are. You know, we— when I approached Talion, because I actually spec'd myself in to get the role, which I'm sure would have saved them a nice fee. But, you know, we were discussing kind of the opportunity, and it was clear that they had the ability to go and win these big logos. Why not go after those bigger customers that are going to turn the needle beyond, let's say, smaller to mid-sized companies? And that's not saying that small to mid-sized companies can't turn the needle, but I think, you know, these big logos are always going to be attractive to, to kind of large recruitment companies because they help you win more business, they make your debt look obviously really good, and typically they're going through big transformations. So yeah, it was always kind of the plan to go after that, um, and I'd always wanted to go after that having dealt with so many of those companies in the UK. I was like, look, this is what I know, I just want to go and challenge myself to go and do it again in a brand new, brand new country and company.

And what would you say again, if like we were meeting as friends, both working recruitment, what would you say are like the main 1 to 3 pros of targeting and winning enterprise logos and like the cons, the pros of going after them, as you say? Yeah, so like, yeah, what, what, what have you— what, yeah, like, what do you think are the 1 to 3 pros, 1 to 3 cons of focusing on, on the enterprise piece? Because I, you know, as you know, I've interviewed a lot of people. I've often found that big billers will have 1 to 3, sometimes more, big accounts that they've worked really hard to win, and they become real cash cows. Typically. And, you know, you can build entire recruitment businesses off, um, building these big enterprise clients, right? So I know you, I know you've done a lot of this when he was in the UK, but again, you know, if I'm a recruiter listening and typically, you know, I win business— my, my target market, and everyone has different target markets and ideal client profiles— but if mine was more, yeah, like startups raising money, all of that, which is a lot of ideal clients for people. What's been your experience of the main pros of focusing and winning enterprise clients? And what would you say are the 1 to 3 cons of having that focus as your ideal client?

Yeah, I think you kind of nailed it, right? It's— in my kind of career and like history in recruitment, and I think you said it earlier, Businesses are driven most of the time off of one or two major customers. And I was excited about the opportunity of having like a big logo that I could say, yeah, Tom landed that client, or Tom won that client, and they generated half a million dollars in GP in year one of signing them. And it was kind of like a challenge to myself to say like, how hard would it be to go and sign a Microsoft or an IBM. So, yeah, the 3 things I guess would be, obviously it adds to your personal brand internally. It obviously generates a huge amount of revenue for a business, which can in turn build your credibility in a business, add a load of value to the business if it's looking to sell, or it's looking to exit, people looking to exit in a few years. And once a client's— like, once a client of that size is won, you can always, like, go off and network from that. So you know that there's business in so many different verticals, and you'll tend to find that you can end up selling multiple service lines to that business. Whereas when you're primarily, like, in the kind of startup phase, like, they won't potentially be looking for managed services and RPO and contract recruitment, you know, and a retained option. They'll usually be looking for one or two of those models. But you know that if you're going to go and sign a— I'm throwing out there— a Microsoft, for example, they will 100% have opportunities for you to sell multiple service lines. So I, I thought, why not go after these big businesses? They tick all the boxes from that respect, and you know, they're gonna bring, yeah, a load of money on the bottom line at the end of the day. So I guess those would be like the kind of pros.

Yeah, yeah, that's perfect. And then what are the, like, what are the cons? What are the, like, challenges that come with this? Because that, yeah, it always comes with challenges that you've experienced. What would you say?

Biggest challenge for me is probably time and being patient, because these opportunities most of the time, and particularly out in the Middle East, take the sales cycle can be extremely long. So you've got to be willing to put that graft in, do your follow-ups, do your meetings, maybe 2 or 3 times with the same person to get that first lead, and be prepared that in some cases it could be 6 to 12 months before that client's going to sign, let alone do business with you. So I'd say the biggest con is probably time. I'd say another con, I don't know if you could say this as a negative, would be like your perception of the client. Some people perceive these companies as unattainable. And like, you know, if you would say, right, go on, Tom, go and land us, you know, British Airways in the UK, people go, nah, that's not going to work.

How the hell am I going to do that?

It's never going to happen. Like, no chance. I'll be here until I'm, you know, 50 trying to do that. So I think that there can sometimes be a perception of negativity around big customers, but I'd say, look, don't let that be the case. You know, I think you can sign any client within reason. You know, like, don't let a logo put you off. So that can sometimes be a bit of a negative. And then the third one, I don't know, like some companies can be quite focused around margins and percentages being, we must do business at 20% or we only do contract business where we're making, you know, 200 quid a day GP off someone. Be prepared to be potentially a bit flexible because sometimes like the margins can be lower. but the volume will be bigger. So I don't know if that's necessarily a negative, but, you know, comes with the territory. Exactly. It comes with the territory. And sometimes you've got to be a bit more flexible. So, but it will still come through in the end and you still can have 100 runners at £1,000 a month margin, let's say, still a million pounds GP a year, you know. So I don't know if that's a negative.

Yeah, no, no, it's a good share. I'm honestly fascinated about this in terms of like this environment of sales? Because I, I don't know if I could do it, if I'm honest. Like, I have my wife's friend's partner does enterprise sales for like SAP, and whenever we catch up, his deal cycle could be like 18 months, a year, whatever, and like it can still not happen. Right?

Yeah.

And I know that, like we said, what comes with the territory is a massive potential financial reward, right? Which is why, you know, these enterprise salespeople can earn silly money. But you bet there's sacrifice that has to be made to be able to get there. You know, it's not easy at all. And I guess one of the things I am really fascinated about is, like, I know, I know it will vary, but for from your experience so far, what's been like the average time from like going from target to signing a contract? Like, how long has that typically taken?

I'd say, I'd say it varies, but like overall, I, I would say that between from like, let's say picking up a vacancy, or let's say you've picked up the vacancy, it can take anywhere up to 2 months to kind of you know, get that over the line. I think the Middle East can be relatively slow at times with the way that the processes and the speed of things work. But if you're talking about client from being prospected right through to signing, I'd probably say between 3 and 6 months on average, for sure, for a billion. Because it's very much like procurement-led, you know, you're— before I'd moved to Dubai, I don't think I'd ever really dealt with procurement. You want to stay away from them. You want to do business with line managers directly. And that's nothing against procurement people, by the way, if anyone's listening. But it's, you know, you tend to try and stay away because it's very much bids, process, knocking down fees, that kind of thing. So yeah, but out here, you are dealing with them regularly. and they do hold the keys to a lot of the big, the big kind of money pots, let's say. So yeah, I'd say on average between 3 to 6 months for a decent, what we call enterprise opportunity.

That is super interesting. And like, I guess the other thing that we put on here before we get into the understanding, the ideal customer profile and stuff like that, is we put what kind of person does it take to succeed in like that environment? What, what, what do we want to— what do we want to share there? Because I've got here in sacrifice, commit, commitment to getting face time, I guess sacrifice, patience, focus. Like, what, what do you want to share there? Because I do feel like it does not take an entirely different skill set, but maybe different characteristics that would make up someone that is winning clients and it could take on average 6 months to land them?

Again, like, it takes people that are pretty clear with their goals and their, you know, their kind of vision of what they want, where they want to be. You know, if you're somebody that wants stuff to happen tomorrow or like you need stuff to happen tomorrow, then I think that you can get quite caught up in that and that can potentially create a lot of internal pressure on yourself. Look, we all want things to happen quickly, but I think as long as you're someone that can see that, you know, the work and the effort is producing some sort of result, you're making progress, then you'll be absolutely fine. But I think you've got to be really clear on what you want the end goal to look like and just keep focused on that mission. But yeah, you can't get away with the fact that, in this role, you've got to be 100% driven and motivated. You are basically starting from scratch, so you are running, you know, your own new business within someone else's business or brand. And, you know, you just got to be prepared to, to go above and beyond, you know, to, to do those journeys, to do those drives, to spend the time perhaps with people that you might not go for a beer with, but you know they, they hold the keys to to really big opportunities, which still people aren't always prepared to do. But if you look at anyone that's successful, even not just in an enterprise sales role, but in any kind of recruitment role, is you've got to be 100% driven and motivated to go above and beyond and do whatever it takes, you know, and put the extra hours in. If you've got to go and meet someone on a Sunday, go and do it. You know, out here, the way that, Dubai and let's say Saudi is, Dubai is now Monday to Friday, the weekends are Saturday and Sunday. Saudi is still Friday and Saturday is the weekend, so they start working on a Sunday. You know, some of our most successful people here, they're doing 6 days a week. And that's not by us being like, you've got to do it, but it's saying, what are you prepared to do to get the result? Are you willing to work that extra day on Saudi where there's a massive opportunity? And then go and work on Monday to Friday as well, or you're not. So those are all the kind of things that you need to be able to be or do to be successful in this kind of role.

And out of interest, looking back maybe, or with what you've learned over the last 2 and a half years, I think what can sometimes be difficult, even for someone like you where you've joined the new business, there would have been expectations of what Tom can bring to the table, you know. I'm sure, I'm sure he wasn't cheap as well, you know, like there's investment, right? So what were some of— what are— what have you found to be good, like, lagging indicators of getting to where you're hoping to get to? Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes it can be difficult when you're in the trenches to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Do you know what I mean? It could be, you know, if you're, if you're getting consistent face time with people in these types of companies, good things should happen 3 months from now. Or I don't know how you think about it, but what are some of those good lagging indicators that we need to keep an eye on, that we need to take wins from, that we need to go, you know what, I've had a win this week? Because we know, especially if we're building from scratch, things are going to take time. And I'm sure you've seen it in your career a lot of people quit just as about things could potentially start happening. But I think what can be helpful for you to share is what are some of those things that, you know, we do need to like really celebrate as a win even though they're not a contract signed or a placement made or a pitch meeting booked. It's what are those lagging indicators that you maybe took good wins from?

Yes, it's a great question. I mean, um, You know, it goes back to the fundamentals of, you know, managing people, right? And being able to see output. If you can't see GP, what else are you looking at? So one of the main indicators that we look at is face time with customers, understanding what— like pipelining future projects, what transformational projects have they got coming up and building out something visible that the team can share with me or I can share with my CEO on what's coming. But it goes back to the basics, right? Are you doing your 5 to 10 face-to-face meetings a week? Are you doing your level of BD activity? Are you being active and present on social media? And if you're reporting back on a weekly basis that you're meeting with the right level of person, and that you're making progress, let's say you're in the process of signing terms or you're registering with a large entity and procurement have got you going through that process, then those are kind of all the right signs that you should continue. You'll often find, right, that clients out here as well will, like, give you, like, a sniff of a job. So they'll say, "Oh, come and work this job. We won't pay you anything. We want to see what you can do." And, like, honestly, most— recruiters would say, no chance. Like, what, I'm not doing anything until you sign the terms. But, but out here, you know, getting opportunities and clients like releasing you like a vacancy or saying they need something is usually a good sign for us. It means that there's, there's potential opportunity there. But I'd say, yeah, pipelining, hitting your numbers, getting out in front of clients, but also as well, I'd say like involving your peers. So So we look at involving other senior stakeholders to get buy-in, you know. If you're not using people around you that are really experienced to help you win those opportunities, then how are you going to be visible in a business? Do you know what I mean? And when it comes down to the crunch time and you're 3 months in and you haven't done a deal, who can back you up? You know, if you've gone on 4 meetings with the CEO or you've gone on 4 meetings with one of the directors of the business, they might go, yeah, do you know what, I was with Tom on that meeting, it was amazing. Like, that could be a needle-moving account. So it's like being visible as well. So those are the kind of things I say that would be things I'd look out for. And if you're in the office all the time, then, you know, you're never going to be that successful in my opinion. So the more that people are out, the better really.

I love that, such a good tip in terms of, Because look, let's be real, right? Like, pressure's on 100%, you know, like, and even more so, I think that this is why also people can be rightly so fearful of going to a new company, because, because from an employer perspective, it is a big investment. And plenty of recruitment founders that, that I've met, that I speak with, have probably been let down more than they have when they've invested in someone like Tom that comes with all this experience. Do you know what I mean? So I love that tip around be— yeah, like invite your peers to meetings that you're booking and getting in front of people. I think that, that, that's a really, really smart tip. Um, let's get into like— because I think this is like really, really crucial if you're going to succeed in, in the type of function that, that you lead, which is like really being detailed on what problems and challenges the, the organizations that people have that you sell to. Um, you know, we put here, understand what your ideal custom profile looks like. This can come in loads of different ways, but really you have to understand their problem challenges. I, I do think this is like the absolute foundation stuff if you want to get anywhere near becoming a solution seller or selling different solutions. Like you have to be good at understanding what the procurement care about. Like what are their issues, what are their challenges, what does— because those problems and challenges are different. And I'm sure you've had to learn this, right? Yeah. Because when I've interviewed people that again have that enterprise focus, procurement comes up a lot. But what they care about and what the, you know, the head of cares about, they're going to be maybe different. And you need to understand both. So talk to us about this. How have you got better? And how, like, one, how important is it? And two, how have you got better understanding where, what these problems and challenges are? Because you have to get good at that if you want to get anywhere near selling different types of recruitment solutions.

Yeah, no, no, yeah, 100%. I agree with you. Um, it always comes back to your, your questioning, and it comes back to your fact-finding about your business. And the clients that you're potentially looking to approach, right? A business that's already established is potentially gonna have different challenges to a business that is starting or looking to scale up. You know, one might have an existing workforce problem and one hasn't even got a workforce to deal with. So you've got to know what your profile is, challenges might be. But the only way that you can do that right is to understand and question. And I think that often, you work for a global company, it's easy to have 10 selling points about your business that make you look and sound amazing. But those 10 selling points might have no relevance to what this company want. You assume that by saying, We're a global business and we've got offices in Europe and the US. And the guy's like, I don't care. I've got this problem here and you've not even spoke to me about this problem. So for me, it's obviously breaking ice with people and understanding and getting to know people, but it's then actually uncovering their biggest challenges and then being able to prioritise those in terms of order of their most kind of challenging, let's say. To then provide that solution. So it comes back to the basics. I wouldn't say that, you know, you need to be an absolute expert enterprise salesperson to sell these solutions. I think you've just got to be able to be a really good question-based person, does that make sense? Or be able to ask really good questions and be able to extract information out of people. But you're right, those questions need to be different based on the person you're speaking to. And they've got to be at the right level. Kind of goes back to something we might have covered earlier. It's like, are you speaking to the right people? I was very, very clear on the level of person and the banding of person that I was going to speak to when I moved out here. And I wouldn't speak to anyone that was outside of that to start with because I needed things to happen quickly. So those two things together help me uncover those opportunities.

And what have you found to be— and again, we're talking about enterprise here— what, what have you typically found to be the normal and typical, like, buying committee to signing and working with someone like yourself? So typically, you know, to get to the endpoint, have we procurement, CEO, CTO? I don't know what, what, what's typically ended up being the buying committee involved, because it's, it's going to be more than one person, obviously.

100%. So we, we always work in tech obviously from, from C down, you know, um, not always CEO to be honest, um, but obviously within the tech functions, you know, your CTO, CIO, you know, Chief Strategy Officer, these kind of positions. And then we'll, we'll also work for into the kind of VP, SVP level as well. So obviously it's different based on the organizational structure of a business. A consultancy's got a different structure than a bank would have, but definitely work from the top down to understand like the needs, right, and to understand the challenges and really dig on that. And then if they think that I can then provide a solution that can solve their problem, which hopefully I can, then it usually leads into procurement that way. But then I've had really good success through procurement and buying channels, you know, it buying or procurement directors within technology. Those people are always looking to review their suppliers, to look at ways they can perhaps save cost, increase quality. So again, those things are obviously looked at by business heads as well, but it's digging into those problems, it's trying to uncover those issues that they've got and lead from there really.

Okay, and what, uh, I don't know, going into detail here, but I'm just curious to hear how you'd articulate it. But like, because, because we do— people listen to this podcast will hear, like, if anyone's into their sales and they want to become better at it, the word they're gonna, they're gonna come across very quickly is problems, right? So I'm just curious to hear your take on, like, if I was in an end customer, let's say a bank, and I was a CISO or CTO you know, 80% of your work is like, you know, big transformation projects. So just give me— would you mind just give me like an example what, like, what I might say my problem is if I'm like a CTO or a CIO? What might a problem be? Do you know what I mean? Because I think that might be helpful for people. Like, what does that actually sound like?

Um, yeah, it— I think it can come in, in like various different forms. Um, typically you might have that I've got a problem with the quality of my engineering team. So I've inherited— I'm a new director into a team. I've also just moved over from another country, from Australia. I'm now the engineering director of a big software business. I don't like my team necessarily, or they're not performing to the levels that they should be, or their product is not good enough. What we're creating and working on. That's the kind of typical challenge I would say.

Nice. Appreciate you sharing that. I guess we get— you've already covered it and sort of mentioned bits, but we got our next step is like sales strategy and we put start small. I guess we're talking here in terms of like you've just, you've moved, you know, you've gone to Dubai, you've joined a new business. So I think what can often be maybe overlooked or like the automatic thing that we can think about is like new, new, new. Right. But I've got a couple of bullets here that we put when we prepared for this, which was you also made sure that you put time and energy into lapsed clients or clients that maybe you got to final stage, we didn't quite get it over the line. Do you want to talk a bit about that? Did you really make sure that you spent just as much time on those types of customers that, you know, you already had information on? You could see the sort of journey they'd been on with Halion. And just as much as putting energy into like net new clients?

Definitely, yeah. Like, I think the first, like, the first strategy that I would, that I took anyway, and I would most likely take it if I was to join a new business, and I did take, was to obviously understand who our existing customers were, look at all of our lapsed clients, you know, clients that perhaps used to bill with us and then have fallen off for whatever reason. You know, people move. It's a business where people are constantly moving, right? One recruiter leaves, that relationship drops off, client then goes somewhere else, and you've lost a massive opportunity. So I kind of looked at the different sections and areas of which I could get, let's say, easier wins. And for sure, I went after those first. And I sat down with the key people, right? I looked at the people that had worked in the business for a long time. Who would perhaps already are successful, or who are too busy, right, dealing with their own clients, to say, you know, who were the big customers we used to work with? What's happened to them? And I asked all those questions, because if you don't ask those questions, you're never gonna get anywhere, right? So that really helped. You know, I was speaking to the CEO, I was speaking to the other senior directors, and that gave me a bit of a foundation to kind of lead from. So yeah, 100% it was net new, but it was companies that perhaps fallen off a cliff or, you know, had once done— had 20, 30 contractors. What's happened and how can we get that moving again?

Yeah. And I put here as well, um, we put here cybersecurity space and then built out from here. Did that like organically happen? Was it just helpful to have a bit of a focus in terms of industry? Or?

Yeah, I mean, that was kind of like a bit of an internal, I guess, decision that we made at the start. Having come from non-tech and then going into that side, it would be impossible for me to begin to sell all the different technologies. Like, if one minute I'm speaking to a software director, next minute I'm speaking to a CISO, you know, then I'm speaking to a head of PMO, about project managers, like you can't get a huge amount of traction, right? And your brain can get scrambled. So we decided that, I guess, in order for me to become maybe an expert, at least like a, you know, say an expert, at least get better at all areas, is to start and do like different projects on each area. So over time, I think I started with cybersecurity, picked that up, learnt the kind of roles we filled in that market, learnt what a brilliant candidate looked like in that field, learned what a typical hiring manager looked like in that field, etc. And then I worked my way through from that, then moved to software, then moved to data, then ended up in the project management and change space, Scrum Masters, BAs, etc. So yeah, I kind of— you're absolutely right— like, worked my way through those so that I became a bit of a, you know, a bit of a— had a good knowledge of all of them, let's say.

Yeah, I mean, you're going to make your job so much harder if, like you said, every single day you're speaking to entirely different 100% types of people, do you know what I mean? Um, and then, and then what, how is it, and have you ended up staying within that sort of world, or have you then just expanded it from that?

So I think what eventually happens though is that you do generally become a bit of an overall expert. And, and I think a lot of people might disagree and say, look, you know, and there's people, you know, in, in our business who are still absolutely specialists in one area, who are soly cybersecurity or solely software recruiters, but I've learned enough in that period of time in the last 2 years to be able to get by and have decent conversations about the different verticals. So I've, and doing BD constantly day in, day out, I've now got networks in each of those areas that I'm still following up with and still doing cadence with. That I'm not going to drop off. So, you know, yes, I started in one space, but now I've been able to pick up the sales acumen and the knowledge and the terminologies, let's say, to be able to sell to anyone. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, it just comes with time, but some people may disagree, but I haven't got a problem speaking to someone that heads up the SAP function of a business, or someone that's heading up the software side. In fact, like, I've won clients in both of those, um, not being necessarily a complete expert in both, but being able to uncover their problems and sell a solution. Because remember, I'm not obviously filling all these jobs, so I'm relying on an expert delivery team behind me to, to do that, which I have full faith in them doing, which obviously makes a big difference.

Yeah, no, for sure. But what we're saying is it was helpful for you to have a bit more of that focus at the start. And then, yeah, does that make sense? Because look, I think it's fair— there will be nuances, but it's fair to say that CTOs or CISOs or heads of project management, when we're talking about talent, when we're talking about workforce, that there's definitely going to be similarities in terms of problems, right? But again, you're gonna just understand the nuances more if you just speak to more CISOs over CTOs and you have to learn that. But I totally get why you're going to be able to get by if you're having decisions with those type of people in those seats. But their sort of environment's a bit different.

It's worth noting, sorry to jump in on you, mate, but I think that you've got me thinking now. It's like when the solution that we come with to customers is a non, let's say, non-biased solution. So, as a single service offering that covers all of your technology needs, it becomes, it adds more value. And you'll often find, right, that recruiters are, well, they're all selfish, right? We're all there to make money. And if you're a software recruiter, let's say, your interest is going to be more related to software. So, you know, you're not going to be necessarily selling, oh, we do DevOps candidates, or we do 'You know, project managers,' or 'We can find you expert cybersecurity people,' whereas I go to a customer with an all-in-one solution, which means that we can deliver on all of your needs, which a CTO is probably going to be more interested in than speaking to a dedicated software recruiter when you know that he's got opportunities in all his, you know, service lines. Does that make sense?

Yeah. No, I can definitely see that perspective from like if I was in their shoes, I guess. I guess to close this out then, let's just have a real detailed chat on this sales process piece. Like we've covered a lot. I think we've given people really, you know, clear picture on new country, new market, how you've gone about it, what's worked, what hasn't. Let's just get into the nitty-gritty of the sales process piece. To round us out here. You've touched on it in a few different ways, but I guess the first thing then, so you found the most effective way to have an opportunity to land some of these enterprise accounts or bigger accounts is top-down, is what you found? Yeah.

Without a doubt.

And you said, yeah, when you, like, you was very clear on these are the types of people that I want to always try and get meetings with. You know, have that approach, like we said at the beginning of the conversation, you know, go for shisha with, try and get rounds of golf with. So what were these like, C-suite executives and then what, heads of types of people?

Yeah, no, like, yeah, you're bang on. I think that, you know, there's, there's still challenges with, I think, most recruiters to, to really find out you know, who is a buyer and who's not. And you'll still speak to people in senior roles and you've got a fancy job title who aren't always holding the keys or have got the budget control. But generally, I would always go kind of top down. I think that you have more valuable conversations. They have a better oversight of the business. They have a better oversight of the challenges. They can even refer you into people. But I would say, on the other hand though, it's not always easy. You know, if your email ID says, you know, recruitment consultant, and mine says senior director, obviously I will have a certain, perhaps, leg up on someone to get in front of those people. So I think it's important that you're focusing your key people to approach the right market as well. So, you know, our enterprise team are all senior kind of principal and above level people, because otherwise you can find in some cases that people may not take you seriously enough. So I wouldn't be putting junior recruitment consultants selling into a CEO of a major corporation. I just think that might be a waste of time. So it depends really, I guess, as well. But yeah, certainly top down, 100% for me.

And then And then let's just start from like the top of the funnel almost. I thought this is really interesting insight and I've heard this a couple of times, but I think there's a lot of stats and data to back up that when a senior person goes into an organization, that's when oftentimes there's change.

Yeah.

Right, and it can be these people are looking at their service providers and a bunch of other things, I'm sure. So like you just said that example earlier in terms of I joined as a CTO and I've inherited an engineering team and I've recognized actually, yeah, this isn't right. I'm going to bring over, you know, 3 or 4 senior software engineers that I worked with, you know, my previous companies. These types of things can happen. So I think what would be really interesting for you to share is like, let's just say that that's the trigger because that's something that you've used, right? In terms of new C-level people joining the company. Yeah. In a, you know, last 60 days, 90 days or whatever. Like if you, if you, if you have that as a trigger, you said earlier, use the word earlier, cadence. Like when we think about these larger accounts, if the, if the goal is to get in front of Tom, the CISO, let's say you've just gone into a cybersecurity company or whatever, like what are you typically doing to try and get in front of this person? Like what does that cadence look like out of interest?

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's again a couple, a couple of different ways that I, I would do this. Um, Usually, it's always got to be soft to start with, right? You'd be silly to go directly into a hard sell, of course. So it's kind of trying to find some common ground. You might even just start with, great news on the new role. How you settling in? See, you've joined ABC Limited. They're a fantastic company. 'Hope it all goes well,' whatever that might look like, right? And I might then leave that for a period because let's be fair, right? No one's going to hire a brand new team in week 2, most likely. They're going to take time to get their feet under the table. So you might not necessarily be wanting to get straight in front of those people. You don't want to look like you're overselling. And then what I'll do, you know, maybe a couple of weeks later or a month later is go in with maybe a bit, a bit of a slightly harder kind of message to say, look, I hope you're settling in really well. You know, my experience as a kind of seasoned recruiter or workforce kind of export expert is to help new leaders build traction in a new company and say, look, I've worked with many people in certain market. Help them make a real impact in the first 60 to 90 days of them joining, which is ultimately how they might, you might be, you know, looked upon from your bosses, it'd be great to grab some time to understand a bit more about the landscape of your team. Do you know what I mean? So it's, what I'm doing is I'm softly, you know, giving them a bit of a carrot, but also sort of seeing how they're settling in at the same time. It's not too hard, but it's getting hopefully something out at the end.

And are you typically doing this, you know, in the LinkedIn DMs, emails, phone calls, and anywhere necessary? What?

Anywhere necessary. I think everyone's on LinkedIn, right? It's easy to drop a message. Most people are active. It's easy to see that notification pop up. So probably just start with like a LinkedIn message. If I'm using my AI tools to grab the data, then I'll then I'll give them a shout as well, or maybe even drop them a WhatsApp, right? Like, everyone is flying at the moment on WhatsApp. It's a bit more personal. It's straight in there on their phone. You know, great news, you joined this company. I wish you all the best. You know, it would be great to catch up soon. Something really, really like casual. And it is as simple as that. But as we all know, leaders are mostly going to be judged, particularly in senior roles, in their first kind of 60 to 90 days. They would have probably pitched a plan or an idea or something to that business of what they're going to achieve. And most of that will be linked to some sort of team, talent, or structure-based changes. So if you can get in there and you can leverage on those potential goals you know they might have, it's a good start. I generally don't have a huge amount of success approaching leaders who've been in the company for 20 years, you know, like they've, they've got a load of people they know, you know, their team.

They'll have trusted partners already.

Yeah, you're, you're going to find it hard.

It is, it is a really interesting frame that you've put on that, which is these senior people, like you said, like we said around this, like even for yourself, like there'll be big expectations, it's a big investment. So I, I do totally get that, but that's a really interesting frame to think of it in terms of like if you can get in front of them, if you can speak to them, and you're framing it in the way of like, I, you know, if you, depending on what your goals are, depending on what the landscape is, I could be a partner that ensures that you deliver what you said you would in the first 60 to 90 days, which will mean that your reputation and credibility goes up. Like, that is an interesting way to look at it. Okay. And, and you obviously, you're in the trenches doing it, but it makes sense that that's true.

So you'll ultimately be judged by, you know, a number of things, obviously, like performance, um, you know, how you are as an individual in the business, how you integrate with people. But like most leaders are judged around their ability to manage, lead teams, and build teams. Like, it's one of the most, you know, critical questions and that, that leaders get asked. So If you've got a fantastic partner to do that with and someone that you can trust and rely, who you think has got those services that can add value, why wouldn't you meet someone like that? At the end of the day, I can be a great salesperson as a senior director in a business, but if my team aren't doing very well and I don't choose to re-replace them, let's say if they're not, with great people, that's going to come under me. So if I can prove that concept or at least add value to that person through, through talent in that period, then that's going to make a difference. So yeah, it's definitely something that I find I have a lot of success with for sure.

And then what you're normally aiming to do if you're approaching someone like this is you're trying to get some sort of meeting with them where you can then dig into understanding what that landscape looks like, what maybe their medium-term objectives are around their people, around what they've seen. And, you know, we put here discovery calls, but that's normally what you're aiming for. And then that's where you've got an environment to do your questioning, listening. Is that the goal really? Because if you're able to do that, then that's where then you can actually potentially come up with and talk to them about solutions around what they're trying to achieve or what they've seen in the first 30 days.

Yeah, no, you've got it. I mean, If you wrap it up with all the points that we've covered, right, it's that it all leads back to that initial part, you know, finding some common ground. So, you know, I use that expat moving over, great to build a network, start that off. Just joined a new company, great, wish you good luck, etc., etc. Can we get some face time? Can we then uncover those challenges that you might have Can I align with those challenges? Do my services actually— do you need the service? Like, it doesn't always work. Like, if every time this happened I'm gonna— I'd want a client, I'll be, you know, a multi-millionaire. But more times than often, if you do it enough times, it will work. And, and I follow those steps through to hopefully believing in the product that you've got, right? You've got to believe and come across that the company that you represent and the service that you're going to offer, you totally believe that you can you can do what you say you do, then you're gonna get results along the line. So yeah, it's all of those steps, right? And hopefully, you know, you stay with that person for the period that they're working there, they achieve their goals, you help them restructure that team, you help them hire those 2 key people that, you know, add that value to their product line. And, you know, they continue to work from there. And then you get referred into his bosses or, his other leaders or his colleagues, and it goes from there, right? So yeah, that's how I seem to do it.

And then, and then just curious, what type of way have you ended up working most often if 80% of your business has been large-scale transformation projects? So has it been more of an RPO? Has it been more of a total outsourced solution? What was— I'm just curious, like, what has that ended up looking like? What's typically ended up— I know it'll vary. But typically, how have you ended up initially working with the new logos that you've landed?

I think, I think I'm very lucky that I work for a company that have got a really good setup behind us to deliver candidates quickly and efficiently. So I've lent on a lot of the time the— there's a big issue with speed out here to hire a lot of the projects and the clients that, that we work with. Have really tight deadlines.

So for projects, exactly, there's like clear deadlines.

Yeah, clear deadlines. Like one minute their client doesn't want anything, the next minute they want 10 engineers or they want 2 architects on site on Monday. And I've been able to kind of promise, or at least kind of almost give them an SLA, that we will deliver those profiles within that period. And you know, some businesses can't do that. That's just maybe your scale of your company, or you're a smaller business, which is absolutely fine, but I leveraged on the fact that we have a brilliant delivery team and specialized functions to be able to deliver on that fast. So, you know, uncovered a client the other day that needed to hire 40 people by 1st of January. You know, if you're a 1, a 3-person boutique company, you, I mean, you couldn't probably do that. You might try, but you might have to lag on quality, let's say. I know that we can deliver that. I put my name on the line and say, if you can give me this opportunity and you want to give us a heads up on this, we will deliver on that. And then ultimately that's how we won our business. And you then find out that that client probably doesn't need 40 by January because we're 2 weeks in and they haven't hired the 40 people, but they've started to interview, they've opened the door, the quality of candidate that we've got has impressed them, and you're in with the business. I guess that's probably quite a good example of something that's worked.

And then that— and then like, so that example, obviously that isn't going to be your standard contract recruitment, is it, the way that you're gonna package that up? So how would you— like, I'm just curious because I, I've been speaking to a few people recently who, you know, like, it's important to have different ways of working with your clients, um, and there are different pros and cons of it. But if you uncover certain challenges, certain points, you know, great recruitment businesses will have different solutions to help solve those problems. So has it typically been more like managed services then, or like mini RPOs?

Exactly.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, we've got— we won an RPO recently, and, you know, that was an on-site model. You know, we can put you a client manager on site, they can liaise with the team, they can consolidate all your vacancies. Agencies, and of course a traditional RPO solution. But what we're able to do is offer almost our own internal RPO solution for the client, where let's say our delivery— let's say we appoint them, we say to the client, you know, we'll give you a dedicated account manager that will manage all your requirements, and then internally the other recruiters in our business or talent acquisition specialists are, you know, the client of our account managers. That makes sense. So They've got to deliver profiles to our account manager within a certain period of time. So we create those internal SLAs to deliver quickly, which the client really like. You know, they deal with one point of contact, they can have all of their technology requirements through one person. So I guess like we're in the middle of a recruitment company and like an IT vendor. So, you know, our selling point against an IT vendor, let's say, why would they not work with Accenture or cognizant, let's say, is, well, those companies aren't recruitment companies, so, you know, they might not have access to talent as quickly as we can and be as agile on talent as quickly as we can. They might have people on the bench, but, you know, we can replace quicker, or we can provide you CVs quicker because we've got 50 recruitment consultants that you can lean on. So, you know, those are the kind of solutions that we're able to offer to our clients, which really does help.

Yeah, I'm honestly seeing it. The more conversations I have with recruiters that sell solutions like this, it's, it's talking about what you're just talking about there and seeing an opportunity that— just, just final point on this and we'll, we'll wrap this up. Yeah, obviously I— we don't need to know the, the cost of these projects, right? But what I'm curious is I've had a lot of questions around it and like how you structured it, because I think sometimes people aren't sure on how to structure it. So like that example that you said Like, are you typically going to structure that in terms of like, these are the SLAs, and if we deliver to them, it will cost X, and you pay monthly for that? Like, you're not gonna— they're not gonna have to pay more if you chuck more CVs their way and you put more— they hire more people, which is often how it's done in recruitment. So if it doesn't make sense, but, but like, how, how are these things typically structured? Is it like performance-based and like project-based in terms of Okay, well, this is what we've understood. This is the solution. So over the next 90 days, this is what you're going to pay and this is what we're going to deliver. And that price stays the same even if they end up hiring more people, for example. I don't know how you've normally done it.

Yeah, I mean, I think we don't tend to use that model with contract recruitment or, you know, traditional project staffing. It's an interesting one. Obviously, 100% in a perm-based solution, right? It's all going to be down to your SLAs, CVs. CV quality, interview ratios, and that will have certain implications on your pricing and what you receive. But for contract, it's really competitive out here, right, in the Middle East, and it is quite a cost-sensitive market. You've got some countries, you know, around this neck of the woods that can typically offer quite cheap models. So, you know, we can do a full kind of dedicated service for no extra cost. Now, we mark that up in our in our contractor pricing, whether that's for a rate card, for a fixed position, whether like a software engineer is this amount of dollars per month, project manager is this amount of dollars per month. So it's usually either a rate card that's been pre-agreed with the client for all these different type of resources, and then whatever we find a candidate for within that rate, we make. Or it's like a fixed cost margin-based model. So we'd agree upfront that our cost plus is this, You know, you give us a set salaries and then we know what we're going to make. But, you know, if someone said to you, we're going to give you 30 or 40 contract requirements, it might not be exclusive, but you knew it was easy fill, or you knew that you had candidates for it, you don't need it paid up front. You don't need to provide it on a service-based model. You know, you can do it. You know, if you've got the capabilities to do it, you'll take it. You know, we took a requirement the other day for 16 engineers against another agency, and we filled 14 out of 16 because we know that our delivery model is there, and we know that the way we're set up to deliver will provide the results. But I think it's— you've just got to be clear on the model that you want to sell. Sales, account management, and delivery is not for everybody, and traditional 360 models are still 100% effective and and profitable, but we're able to scale a lot more effectively doing this model, 100%, and hence build an enterprise team that was, you know, just me 2.5 years ago, to now it's made up of 10 people, you know, worth nearly $3 million a year. So it just goes to show what you can do when you do break down the parts of the job.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that. I feel like that was my lack of contract knowledge showing up there. But like, for people that operate in your world, they'll understand that, the difference from the rate card and pricing out the way that you did. But because I know there's different ways that you can cost out, which is why I wanted to ask. You can, you can.

Maybe, maybe I'm— maybe there's parts I'm not— maybe I'm not selling yet.

But no, no, I know that will make a lot of sense. Yeah, awesome. Um, look, I get— let's, let's close this out then, I guess.

Yeah.

What have you been— I know we've kept it really, you know, professional recruitment Just curious to round this out, like, what have you been most surprised by since moving? It's like more of a personal question. What have you been most surprised by in terms of living in Dubai? Because I know everyone will have a perception, whether that be the perception of looking at Dubai through the Instagram lens, through the religious lens, the country, whatever. What have you been most surprised by since actually moving your life there personally? That you want to share out of interest for anyone that might like the idea of taking their career to Dubai? It also means moving your life there.

So definitely, like, the number one thing, right? Like, and take money aside because tax-free is unmatched, obviously, um, might literally double your earnings overnight. Um, well, obviously once you built, built your desk, but, um, it's is the lifestyle. Like, like every day, you know, that horrible tube rides to work in the morning, that walk to the station in the pissing rain before you even get on the train, like, you don't have that. You know, I open the curtain every day and there's sun. If I want to go and walk the dog, it's 28 degrees at 6 in the morning. If I want to go and walk the dog at 8 PM, it's 28 degrees. Um, you know, I haven't worn a coat in over a year. So, you know, those things make— yeah, exactly. Um, I don't even know how cold it is now when you're filming this, but, but, um, it's just lifestyle. Like, you, you feel better, so therefore you're more motivated to, to go and do this job, which, which we know how hard it is, right? But, but lifestyle, you know, weekends are amazing. You know, your mornings can be amazing. You can go and do an outdoor gym workout. On a 25th floor of a skyscraper looking over the beach before you go and crack on with your day. So yeah, 100% lifestyle and the people here, like everyone is pretty much driven to be successful. So you're around like-minded people. People are hustling here. You know, you're not dealing with, a lot of people are high performance here. And yeah, that's my biggest change. You know, it's having an amazing lifestyle and matching it with, with uncapped earning potential with no tax. I don't know what more you want.

Yeah. No, thank you for sharing that. I think, yeah, I'm a big believer in— as I was telling you, we went and saw a friend in Austin and I do really believe that like whatever your opinions are of a country, of a place, like it's down to you to find your tribe. Like, you could— Tom could be, you know, if you just want to go out all the time, you know, crack on with women, I'm sure you can find people and places to do that with where you're at, right? If you want to be the person that's flashing the cash, looking like, you know, whatever you want to look like, you can find somewhere to do that. But if you want to be someone that's locked in, that wants to earn good money, that wants to maximize their potential, that wants to see what's possible, I'm sure you can find that there as well. I think that that's what I know. You know, when I spoke to people, yeah, that are there, I think that that's a really cool thing about the environment that you're in is, okay, yes, I'm sure there's plenty of people there that are pretentious, that want to look the certain part, but I fucking guarantee you're gonna bump into a lot of people that earn money there, 100%. Like, and like, that, that is, yeah, that's down to you and what you make out of that, right?

It's silly, silly money. Like Stuff you actually like almost makes you feel sick. Like you're like, how are you making that much? Like in recruitment, like earning more than partners of law firms and whatever in the UK. It is what you put into it. But I have seen so many people come and go and fail because they want to be Mr. Big Time or Mrs. Big Time. There's a brunch every day of the week. Monday night is a big night out. Sunday night is a big night out. And everyone goes through that transition, right? Because it's like living in Ibiza with, you know, with money. So you can go down the road or you can settle down, you know, find a partner if that's what you want and create an amazing life and move your life forward in half the time that you would anywhere else. So, you know, not to blow my own trumpet, but I've like put myself in a situation that probably would've taken me 7 or 8 years in 2 years if I was back in the UK. So life moves fast if you like lock yourself in, but it can also go fast the other way if you go wrong because there is a lot of, you know, a lot of fake people out here, obviously. So you've got to get locked in, right? And you'll change your life. You know, there's people here living in, million-pound houses who've been doing recruitment for 3 years. You know, it's— I'm not just saying that, it's possible. But you've got to be— you've got to get stuck in. You know, it's not quite the real estate market because there's, you know, obviously there's good salaries and good basics to be had out here and, you know, good opportunities. But, you know, you can really change your life 100%.

Love it. Tom, it's been an absolute pleasure, mate. Thanks for joining me.

Loved it. Cheers.