From Under Performer to Top Biller: Rebeka Mulk’s UK Recruitment Playbook

Rebecca, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for making the trip.

Thank you.

Obviously, I just learned that you actually— I should have learned this when we prepared— but live in Birmingham, commute to Bristol twice a week, but you've come from Bristol.

Yes.

This morning, right?

Yes.

Massively appreciated. Really excited to go through your journey, and there's a couple of things that we want to go through in this conversation. Firstly, you've spent nearly 8 years in recruitment. Yes, worked at two companies. The first company, we didn't quite get to the performance levels that you've gotten to in the last four years. So I think we first wanted to talk about what were some of the things that maybe Rebecca was doing with hindsight that maybe held you back, held your performance back, because going into this second environment, life's completely changed from a recruitment standpoint. And then secondly, we then want to talk about— we've got here a bit of a plan around 360 Recruitment Blueprint in the UK, how to succeed as a 360 recruiter in today's market. We're just talking outside before we started this that I think there is a bit of a narrative now where it's almost seen— I wouldn't say UK market is dead, but I think there's a lot more people now that would say, why would you work in the UK market when you can do the US market, or insert any other market?

Yeah.

But safe to say, over the last 8 years, particularly over the last 4 years, you've been doing pretty well. So let's give everyone a bit of a career highlight reel. Let me know if I get any of this wrong, okay? Just to give everyone some context, the journey you've been on. So as we said, you worked in, uh, recruitment for nearly 8 years. You've always done the UK market and specifically Java, right? Cool. So first 4 years, basically your best year in that 4-year period was £120K. Because you've always done perm. You then joined Opus, which is nearly now like 4 years that you've been there, isn't it? Yeah, I think you first started— again, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I've got here— first 2 years you did just the regional market, which specifically was the Southwest.

Southwest and Southeast.

Southwest and Southeast, again, still Java. And then for the last, uh, 2 years you've done the entirety of the UK, but still that same, same niche, right?

Yeah.

You got on your LinkedIn back-to-back top biller the last 2 years. Absolutely unbelievable. I think you joined during this crazy time in the UK recruitment market, right, where I think your first year— yeah, first year there, which would have been an interesting experience to go from where you was, you did £430K. Yes, that must have been like, what the hell's going on? But then, uh, over the last couple years consistently you've hit around the £250K mark, right? And then just to give people a bit more context, I think if we were to look at your desk over the last 12 months or last year, your average deal size was around £17,000-18,000. All of this was contingent and exclusive. And we were just talking out there with your manager who's come along as well, where last year your average sort of fee percentage, which we're going to get onto, which has been important and impactful for you, was around 19.2%. So safe to say that, you know, the first 4 years, I'm sure you'd now describe as— maybe you wouldn't describe it as challenging in the moment, but like the first 4 years compared to now is worlds apart. So that's why we wanted to start with, I guess, just having a bit of a reflection on like looking back. You've been in a different environment for the last 4 years. Looking back, like, what are some of the things that if you were to look at that maybe you would say I was doing, maybe not this one particular thing wrong, or was there common mistakes, or with how you now work compared to then, are there any major differences that stand out to you that maybe was resulting in the performance?

Okay, firstly, that was such a nice introduction, by the way. I wonder if my husband describes me that way. No, do you know what? When I look back at my performance in my ex-agency, in comparison to where I am now, I think the major differences was the massive mentality shift I had when I came into AFIRS. And what I mean by that is when I first came in, because there was a period where I was in my ex-agency and I wasn't necessarily in love with the recruitment, I wanted to leave recruitment completely, I wanted to go into product management, etc., etc. I thought I would be really good at it, etc., etc. And then I came into Opus because I was like, I've given 4 years to recruitment. I am not leaving without one last shot because I know I've got a 6th gear and I know I have to unlock this, but I need the right people to get it out of me. And that is exactly what Opus did for me. I came into Opus and there were these monstrous billies. Like when I tell you there are people doing 400, 500K for a laugh when I came in. And obviously there was a little bit of an artificial boom period, etc., etc. But even then, the numbers were phenomenal and people don't rest. People are constantly talking about the next deal, the next deal, the next deal, the leaderboards constantly coming out. So I think being surrounded by not just one top biller in your company, but like multiple good people who can generally teach you and educate you on what good looks like and actually get you to become this ambitious, like, woman who really wants to take on the world. I think, you know how they say you need to have your environment with the right people, be surrounded by good people because you become a reflection of that? That is so true. So I think first of all, it was not being surrounded by just one tobillar, it was multiple, like, 10, 15 top billers globally. Um, second of all, I remember when I first came in, I used to literally demand the time of my managers and my directors, and I would literally tell them to sit down with me all the time. I never used to do that with my ex-agency because naturally I was— I knew I was always motivated, but I was probably not as ambitious because I was in a room full of probably like not as monstrous billers. So they were quite, 'cause it was also a lifestyle business, they were quite happy doing 150, 180, et cetera, et cetera. And that was okay. And that's fine 'cause you do have lifestyle businesses out there. They're profitable, they're great, et cetera, et cetera. So that's fine. But then coming into here, I knew I had this massive imposter syndrome and I was like, oh my God, I need to become good. I have to be good. And the only way to be good is to ask the question, educate yourself, and improve. So I demanded the time of my managers, my directors. Like, my managers and directors will tell you, they used to come and rip my desk to shreds every single week. Every single week.

And you demanded that?

I demanded that. For some reason, I'm like this massive sadist. I wanted all the criticism coming my way. And this would happen on the floor, by the way. This is not like— 'Oh, come into my room, come into a meeting room,' or whatever, whatever, and then do this in secret, etc. I would literally say on the sales floor, 'No, tell me what I'm doing wrong and tell me how to get better because I am not here to mess around. This is a job for me. I actually don't care what people think of me. I need to become good. I need to become good fast because I've given myself another shot at recruitment. This needs to work.' Because if you're in recruitment to earn 40, 50 grand, it just isn't even worth it. You can go do a basic job somewhere else and just get a normal job, stressful job. A less stressful job. You can do whatever.

You've answered that, like, I think— so this, the bits that I take from that is that this isn't about X company is bad or rubbish or compared to this, right? But actually, if you're listening to this, we were talking about this earlier, right? You could have very easily been someone that tried recruitment and said goodbye to it, right?

Yeah.

But kudos to you to being like, you know what, actually I'm going to give this one final crack, and then I'm going to be willing to look in the mirror and go, you know what, I tried recruitment, it wasn't for me, or I didn't quite get to where I want to. Yeah, so I think if you're listening to this, you should be someone— you're most likely someone that's ambitious, that wants to maximize your potential, that wants to get better. And you are thinking, actually, maybe it is recruitment for me, but you've only maybe worked at one company. Like, don't, don't miss an opportunity, because I think there is a lot to be said around actually, am I in the right environment?

Yeah.

And that can have a big impact, right? I think so. I think particularly in, in the recruitment environment, it's a sales environment, so that can have a big impact. So if you've only worked for one company and you're considering this recruitment for me, maybe actually explore it because you don't know what you don't know. This is the thing, right? You've got— especially when you work at one company, you've got nothing to compare it to.

Yeah.

But now you've worked at another business, you've got it to compare it to.

Yeah.

And I love the fact that you've also said there maybe actually you wasn't asking for as much help as you should have, or you wasn't as willing to be like, how can I get better?

Yeah.

It is interesting that— so if I'm— would you say to someone listening to this, there is an environment where maybe they could resonate with that, they know they want more but maybe they haven't had that courage to ask for help, is your advice like just lean into it regardless of the environment you're in? Like, get— like, demand time from people? Because I'm assuming that could have helped, right, if you did do that?

Um, yes and no, I would say. Um, the reason why I would say that is because I genuinely do think you're a product of your environment. So I do think, yes, I could have asked for more help, I could have improved in my ex-agency, etc., etc. There were good people out there, etc. And I've learned so much from that business. Like, the foundation of who I am actually came from that business. The reason why I got into recruitment, the foundations, etc., that obviously came from them. But I do think Being in an environment where, you know, if it's the same with any other job, I would say, like if you were a racer and you're racing different cars, but everyone's happy doing 70 miles per hour and just cruising through because that's the speed limit. I would just, I would basically compare it to that. If you want to do 70 miles per hour and you're in that environment, that's absolutely fine. There's no problem with that. I just wouldn't choose recruitment to be on cruise, like on cruise control. I think if you know that you're not getting that from your environment, and if you haven't asked for the help, ask for the help and see where that leads first. Because being a sponge, asking for help, learning and improving is so incredibly important in this journey. However, if you haven't received what you need to, you know yourself better than anyone else. Then go and find an environment who's going to unlock that sixth gear in you. Because when I actually interviewed for Opus, I actually said to them, and I was very clear about this, I know I have a sixth gear. I know I'm a super ambitious and motivated person. No one's been able to unlock that. I need the right management to unlock that for me. And that is exactly what they've done for me.

Love it. Had the internal drive, just maybe needed that sort of external guidance to get there, right? Because I I think that's the other thing for leaders listening, is you— can you learn that internal drive? Maybe. But I think, yeah, like, you've, you've got to have people in your business that want the will. You clearly had the will, right? Maybe you just needed some help unlocking the skill and everything else, right? But you clearly had the will. You had— you was like, I've got the sixth skill, I'm here to give it to you. So let's get into what do we feel like If we were to take a step back, and we've prepared for this, what has, uh, Rebecca done well to get to where you've got to, right, from a 360 recruitment standpoint? So we've got a couple of headings that we're gonna, we're gonna work through together. So we've got, we're going to start with mindset and the importance of understanding your why. Okay, so we'll start there, then we'll go into Rebecca's thoughts on how to approach the market, strategy, is niche important, Then we'll get into some actual particular strategies when it comes to the candidate side, client side. We'll then get into delivering a world-class recruitment process. What does that look like from Rebecca's perspective? We'll touch on KPIs, metrics, the science to success. What do you track? Why? What are your non-negotiables? And we'll round out with where are maybe some of the areas that people often go wrong.

Yeah.

And some of the common stumbling blocks.

Cool.

I know this is something you're really passionate about, and this comes up time and time again and is absolutely crucial, maybe overlooked. Talk us through why you're such a big believer that if you really understand your why in recruitment, it can massively help you unlock your potential that you're talking about. Talk to us about that and we'll start there.

Okay. Um, I think, you know what, personally, and I generally do mean it when I say this, obviously there are really hard jobs out there, okay? There are people who, like my husband, he's an orthopedic surgeon, and what he does is genuinely incredibly hard every single day, right? And I think there are multiple different hard jobs out there, but sales is dealing with people with emotions, right? So you're gonna have so many up and down days, like so many up and down days. You may have people changing their goalposts on you, you may have people Liking something one minute and completely not liking it the next minute. And you can't control human beings, right? You can influence their behavior to a certain extent, but you can't control them. And that is why this job is difficult. I wouldn't say our job is very, very hard. It's just difficult because we're dealing with people. So you need to get good at dealing with people, influencing the process, etc. So I think obviously when it comes to that, if you don't have your why clear as day in your mind, why am I doing this job? Okay, if a candidate drops out, it will hurt you, it'll hurt your feelings. You'll be probably on the verge of tears. You're like, oh my God, 20 grand is going away from me. I just booked my holiday. But the thing is, if your why is not blaring you in the face, this job is going to genuinely be difficult. And this is where I think it began for me with Opus. My why was always giving back to my family. My why was my dad, he's always been the sole breadwinner. My mom's a fantastic homemaker. She's the reason why we've We've got 4 siblings in the family, so me included. I'm a twin. And she's done an incredible job with all 4 of us girls. All 4 of us girls are super ambitious, super driven, and none of us are very happy to be laid back. And when your parents pour so much into you, for me personally, my why was making sure my mom and dad were always taken care of. So I wanted to buy my mom and dad their first home, which I did. I wanted to buy my dad a really nice BMW, a 5 Series. He's like a car fanatic. He loves speedy cars. He loves a good car. He wanted leather interior, etc., etc. So I was like, yeah, I'll do that for you. Don't worry. Which I did. And for me, that why was so important because every single time something terrible happened in recruitment or something wasn't going my way. And the thing is, not every single day everything you do will go your way. That's just the reality of our job, right? But because I knew how important it was to me, I just did not give up. And that why being so strong in your mind, in your heart, that's the reason why you would succeed in this job. It just needs to be glaringly obvious in your face. And that's why when I remember asking someone, like, why are you here? Like, what's your next goal? And what motivates you? And someone actually told me, oh, I want to buy one skateboard. And I was just like, okay, what happens after the skateboard? And they were like, no, I'm happy after the skateboard. And I'm like, okay, that's great. I was like, oh my God, who's going to tell this guy? Like, who's going to tell him? Maybe more than that, yeah.

So what, just curious then, and I love that, like, I love— appreciate you sharing that with us because, because I do think it's, it's so important. If we haven't really got it clear and it really resonates with us, it means something to us, what do you think would then become difficult, if you get what I mean? So like, if I'm listening to this and I feel like, you know what, actually, Rebecca, I probably haven't really thought about that. Yeah, I've maybe said I've written it down, maybe I want to get onto the property ladder Yeah, but I don't really like— I can tell how passionate you are about that in terms of how much you want to help your family, how much you want to give back. I can, I can see it, I can feel it. So that makes sense to me, where maybe when you have that month that you was like, this is going to be it, like things are going to turn for me, I'm going to have my best ever month, and it doesn't go that way, you can go, you know what, that's okay, I've got tomorrow. Yeah, this is why I'm doing it. If we haven't got that, what, what do you think is going to be more difficult for me if I haven't got that why?

If you haven't got that, why do you know? I see this often, time and time and time again. I think if you don't have that why, it's really hard to be resilient in this job. I think resilience plays such a massive role in sales anyway, right? Because everything that you do can lead to a zero or a one. So you could make that one extra phone call which will make sure— make you land a massive big account, Or you can have that one phone call where they're like, oh no, fuck off. That's it. Like, we do not want to talk to you. And the thing is, you're going to have multiple days like this. This is your day job. This is what you do for a living. And if you don't have that why, I think it's so difficult to stay in the industry and be resilient. And also remember, your why always changes, right? Like, for instance, after I bought my mom and dad their first house, I bought dad his car. I was like, okay, but that's not it for me. Because obviously I did that 2.5 years ago. And after that, 2 years ago when I got married, me and my husband had separate goals. So our goal is now to climb the property ladder. So now we basically push ourselves every single year, right? We need X amount of properties under our belt every single year. How much do we need to save up? Okay, fine. And we work the numbers backwards. And that is how my day-to-day life is now formed. I know what I need to do every single day that I'm showing up to work for me to make sure me and my husband can actually build our future together. So I think if you don't have your why, I personally, I've seen it multiple times where if your why isn't strong enough, you will struggle. And look, not everyone needs to be this driven, not every— or like have like monetary goals. People can generally just be really happy, like earning a certain amount, having a very good lifestyle, etc. But just remind yourself that, whether it's a Post-it note on your computer, on your laptop, whether it's your own people in your circle reminding you at work or personally. Like, I have people who hold me accountable. So for me, it's really easy for me to remember my why. Every time I don't make a phone call, my manager's like, you remember, you wanted to buy that property, where is it going to come from?

That was gonna be my next thing to sort of round this out, was like, how do you— like, do you use any like visual prompts? Do you have like Post-it notes? Do you have on your screensaver? I know these are little things, but I think it is— for me, whenever I've— like, in my experience, whenever I've felt the most demotivated with what I'm doing, it's because I haven't connected that, that why, yeah, I'm doing it. And then as soon as you come back to that and it's something that you've thought about, it resonates with you. Then you're like, no, this is why I'm doing it, this is why I'm going through the, the hard bit. So it is so crucial to have, but that's something that I've had to get better at, is just having those visual prompts and like making sure that I'm reminded daily, weekly why I'm doing what I'm doing. So like, for me, I bring that just into work. I just have Post-it notes on, on my desk, and yeah, we use a, a particular tool, and I've got it written in places, so I'm always seeing it. So you said that people hold you accountable, so you shared. So I think this is the cool thing. So if you, if you, if this is resonating with you, one of the cool things that you can do is actually share your why with people, right? Because then they're people that can hold you accountable. So I think that's a cool way to do it, right?

Yeah.

And I think as you speak out to an existence, it's like, I, I'm, I'm a big believer that if you start saying you're gonna do things, yeah, out loud to people, then you know you've said it.

Yeah.

And I don't know, not everyone, but I'd feel if I'm saying we're going to do X and then we don't, it's like, no, like, I need to make that happen. Yeah, you know what I mean? So you've got holding people accountable. Is there anything else that you do to be reminded of the why? Do you have Post-it notes? You have things? So you also speak about with your partner, which I love. That's awesome. That's something that I do. Yeah, with my wife. I think that's really important to have those aligned goals, and you hold each other accountable when you talk about it. But anything else that you do to visually remind yourself?

No, I think that's enough, to be honest. For me, it's very important for my close people, because my closest people, I've let them know from day one. And my twin, for instance, my sisters, they're my biggest fans, but also my biggest haters. And my husband, I literally, when we got married, I was like, you need to be exactly the same. You need to be my biggest fan and say I'm the best thing since sliced bread, but also be my biggest hater and completely like always keep me on my toes. And I think that works for me. I know if I speak it into existence or if I tell people out loud, this is what I'm going to be doing, I want to be embarrassed and be like, oh right, yeah, by the way, I didn't, didn't match, didn't happen, that didn't happen. Yep, that didn't happen. Like, that's also—

yeah, yeah, I'm a big believer in that. Okay, so hopefully for those listening, this may be this might encourage you to really dial in on that why. And maybe if you haven't really uncovered it, you might have written something down but it doesn't really mean something to you, not passionate about it, this can really get you thinking about it. So now let's talk about more of the, the recruitment stuff. So when we think about strategy, yeah, I guess you went from Southwest, Southeast to now UK-wide. How important— obviously you've only done— you've always done the UK market, so you haven't got anything to compare it to, right? But from your experience, firstly, obviously We always hear this advice around niche and how important that is. Why don't we just start, start there? Like, how, from your perspective, from your experiences, how important is it for you to have a niche? How has that benefited you? You've always done Java. I don't know if, like, you want to tell us a bit about how you've actually niched that down, what does that actually look like? But how important is it, firstly, do you believe, in the UK market to have a niche?

Um, first of all, I don't think just in recruitment, in general, I think it's always important to have a niche, right? Like, you don't necessarily— like, when you see lawyers, when you see doctors or any professional, like, people, it's important to have a niche, right? And the reason why I say that is because you start building your knowledge, your expertise in that area. So you start knowing what you're talking about. You start becoming credible. People trust you because what you say makes sense. You're not spouting crap, basically. So I think for credibility, it's so important for people to be able to trust that what you're talking about makes sense, what you're talking about, you know about. Because if you don't, then you're quite— people are not very forgiving in nature, especially once you make mistakes in sales, right? Because think about the UK market and how tarnished it is in the UK market to be a recruiter.

Bad. That's what we're trying to change here. This is what we're trying to do. Exactly.

Terrible.

Yeah.

Although we also save lives, by the way. Yeah, 100%. We save lives. We literally change lives. But yeah, I think the credibility is extremely important for you to actually know the information, the knowledge to build your credibility in a market. That's the reason why to build your network out, to make sure that people actually know your name, your brand, your reputation, that you can deliver in this, whether it's client or candidate. Because to me, client and candidates are not different, by the way, because even a client is going to be a candidate at one point, right? So to me, it makes no difference. People are people, whether you're a client or a candidate, they should be treated the same. They shouldn't be treated specially because they're going to pay you a 20 grand fee. It just doesn't work like that. So I think Trust, credibility, knowing what you know and making sure you're an expert in your field, building that relationship so people actually see you, talk to you, know who you are, and can come back to you. Um, and yeah, that would be—

yeah, and what you're saying here is you can achieve those things way more— maybe not quickly, but you have way more of a higher chance of achieving those things if all you're doing is speaking to similar people every single day. That's the thing, right? Because you could maybe achieve those things if I spoke to surgeons that work in the UK. Yeah, but that's gonna take way more longer, right? And that's going to require me to understand way more things. Yeah, but that, that's the benefit here, because how— because how would you define your niche? So we've put UK, Java.

Yes.

But have you brought— over time, maybe you can tell us, but like, because that evolved over time where maybe it used to be I only speak and work with people that understand this language, use this technical language every single day. Yeah, in the UK. Yeah, but you could potentially niche that down to, I only work with senior leaders. I don't know, you tell us. Like, have you niched it down? How would you actually define your niche out of interest?

Um, do you know what, it's actually changed so much in the last 8 years. So when I first started Java, um, I just used to focus on Speaking to good core developers and the way I learned what good looked like was actually speaking to developers. I remember saying to really proper technical people, I have zero idea what you do. You have to dumb this down for me and you need to really explain what you do. And someone actually gave me a kitchen analogy and they were like, look, do you know what the chefs do? You know what the porters do? You know what the front of the house do? Okay, the front of the house are the frontend developers. Backend developers are the chefs cooking up the meals. And the in-between people are so-and-so. So basically talking to people, that really helped me figure out what worked back then, 8 years ago, right? But Java's almost like, I hate to say this 'cause everyone's gonna be like, "Oh no, come on." But the thing is, I almost see it like a fashion trend where back in the days, good core Java developers were so hard to find. Like genuinely, I would find one good developer reel off their achievements to you, and it would be the Cristiano Ronaldo of the world. And whether the hiring managers had budget or not, they would all want to talk to them. Yeah. And obviously, we all know that it's common knowledge in the industry that females in the industry is like such a rare, like, it's obviously still a problem, still an issue, because there's such a difference in percentages between the men and the female. In the industry. So, you know, back then if you had a Cristiano Ronaldo or a really good woman, you knew you could take them out to the market and everyone would want to speak to you regardless of whether they had the budget or not. Like, you would speak to some people and they're like, no, actually, we don't actually have the budget for her, but will she still speak to us? And I'll be like, no. So back then it was really, really like simpler, I would say, not easier, but simpler. But then you talk to the people who are in the trenches and be really in the market. So every single time I speak to a good developer, I would say, right, what do you notice is the difference? What are the differences? What are the trends? And what do you think people actually want to do now? What do you think, where are we moving to? It's not gonna stay Java all, all like through the years of software development and coding and whatnot. So where are we moving to? That's where you learn. That's where you pick up your next niche and to make sure that you're moving and chasing the next profitable niche. And within Java, there would be certain technologies that would come out where people obviously quite, um, just literally a few years ago, I think when I joined Opus, everyone was very obsessed with people who were doing Java with certain technologies, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, right. This is the next thing I have to make sure I have developers who have these technologies, and that's where I'm going next. Now, do you— it is the reason why I said it's like a fashion trend is because you have a lot of newbies, younger developers coming on board, and they work with really cool technologies like Kotlin and Golang and like functional programming like Scala, 'cause it's more exciting apparently. I have zero idea, by the way. I'm not technical at all. And you can see that obviously that's where the flow is going. So now that's what I'm chasing as well. I don't necessarily just do Java. I'm moving more into just the JVM function, but more towards Kotlin because that's where a lot of people are going. But Java is such a massive language, right? It's strong, it's easily scalable, robust, like a lot of big enterprise clients use it and it's easier for big clients to maintain that language. And the developers, there's a higher barrier to entry. So the developers are super sophisticated, really elegant, and I don't think it's ever gonna go away. But I think the market has shifted so much where obviously people are moving into different technologies. Also, like obviously the last 2 years there's been so many layoffs and redundancies and like obviously you see all of that in the news.

Um, so it sounds like— so it sounds like what you're saying then is it's really important to have like a core focus, but then over time, because you're just speaking to people that, uh, yeah, within your niche, you're then always trying to understand, okay, well, what do you keep hearing about? What are people using more? And then you're being flexible on that front. But we've started from this point of, yeah, I spend all my day speaking to core developers that use Java or understand how to use Java.

Yeah, okay, that's where it all begins. And then just talk to people, like whether it's learning internally or externally, the rules are always the same. Talk, ask, be a sponge, talk, ask, be a sponge. That's it.

Have you thought about, have you ever, maybe this isn't necessary, but I know some people also think about this when they niche down is like, I only work with people that operate and are proficient with Java and are also heads of software or Like you can also niche down in terms of level, right? Have you played around with that, thought about that, or are you— how's that looked for you?

Um, a majority of the positions that I do tend to work, um, actually vary from senior engineers, lead engineers, head of, um, you know, I was telling you that today hopefully I'm going to be meeting another client and that's the head of software engineering position. Um, so it is senior and above.

Okay, did that happen over time? So maybe when you first started, was it core developers, or has it always been a senior and above?

No, no, no. I think that's where generally people struggle more, because think about it, you're— if you're a senior in your field, how much harder is it to poach a senior than a junior or mid?

Harder.

Yeah. So I think that's where my value will be. I can bring more to the table.

Got you.

Because, um, the senior engineers, they're not just gonna move for anything and everything, or like some average job coming bumbling along.

Or just more money. They're not on the move just for more money.

Exactly. There's always a reason why they need more. They need more of something. And for you to be able to really understand people, to nurture that, to actually make sure you can understand their whys, that's also important in this journey.

So do you feel like having that focus, you've shared with us that you've been flexible with trends and what you've learned along the way.

Yeah.

Do you feel like that's given you an edge where you're just saying it there, where when you do get in front of hiring managers, when you do get in front of senior technical leaders, you can say, I understand how difficult it is to get these senior head of— that, that's what I just focus on, speaking to people. That is where my network is. That's what I've worked really hard to build. So do you feel like that's— that gives you an edge? In a market which is really competitive?

Yes and no. Okay. I think your network is obviously your net worth, and I'm truly a believer of that. The people that I would talk to wouldn't— I never talk to people necessarily on job boards or open opportunities, etc., etc. I talk to passive talent where I know that other people are not talking to them, and that's who I'm going to be marketing out. Right? And I think obviously there's a good candidate and a good CV. There's a difference, right? So, good candidate is someone who's going to be reliable, dedicated, easily coachable. You can make sure that obviously they're going to go through the process, they're going to represent your brand really well, etc., etc., etc. And a good CV is someone just who looks good on paper, and that's the extent of it. So, I think going back to this, just being flexible. Talking to people and going to hiring managers and telling them what you've learned and showing what a good person, a good candidate looks like. And then also just having open, honest conversations about multiple different areas about what you have seen in the market. That's where I would say I've had more wins from.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Versus just saying, I'm a specialist recruiter that just hires these people that score high. Okay, fair.

I never even lead with I'm a recruiter, by the way. Do you know when I first started in recruitment, people used to think I'm like, you know, the social workers who help people get jobs. I actually generally, and I remember my mom said this, oh my God, are you a social worker? Do you help unemployed people? I'm like, kind of, kind of similar. But I never lead with I'm a recruiter ever.

So what would you lead with then?

Hi, it's Rebecca Mok from AFIS.

Okay, fair.

No, but I actually even like cold calling and stuff like that. You should never lead with, I'm a recruiter, I'm a specialist. No one cares. And who decides if you're a specialist? Your LinkedIn brand? Who's going to decide that?

Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And it's overused, isn't it? Especially in the UK market. So final thing on this market piece. I don't know if again, this is something that maybe happened naturally or not. Sometimes it does. But have you, uh, maybe along the way considered also specialising in an industry or industries? Has that happened or no? Are you very sort of holistic with that? Because sometimes I'll sit down with people and then their niche would be what you're doing, and we only work with companies that are in the renewables and energy space, for example, or just work with companies in the gambling space. Like, yeah, has that happened over time or no? Has that been very fairly holistic? Because I know that can also form a bit of a niche where people can then also have a bit of a point of difference, a bit of an edge?

Um, no, not really.

That's fine.

Yeah, just because I think there was a point where, um, I was thinking of specializing in an industry, etc., etc., especially the public sector, um, where a lot of these, um, a lot of the developers who need SC clearance, DB clearance, EDV clearance, which is like the highest level of clearance that you could potentially have, and that's really like hard to find people with those clearances. I did think of just focusing on that, but I didn't. I just talk to people, and when I see there's a fashion trend, I just follow that, and I do it religiously. And this is the thing with this conversation that I'm having with you, you'll notice your why is constantly evolving. The market's going to be constantly evolving. The way you do recruitment will be constantly evolving. So the main thing I would say is always be malleable. Be, be very flexible. Be very malleable. Be the person that the industry needs you to become to unlock that potential in you.

I love that. That's great advice. So let's get on to some strategies, because you're just talking about it there, because I know, I know people would be probably thinking about it when you said this. Let's just start with— we put 1 to 3, it doesn't have to be 3, at least 1 hopefully— the candidate side. Because you were just saying there, which is interesting, I find myself really only focusing on speaking to passive talent, right? Yeah, obviously most recruiters would love to be able to only be working with that type of talent. Yeah, so tell us a bit about how you go about doing that. Whatever comes to mind for you in terms of like one way that you've consistently been able to do that. Because correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't recruit in your market, but I can imagine these professionals who are senior and above are getting inundated. Yeah, with messages from not just recruiters but also internal talent teams. Yeah, because you're telling me what I've learned here is that's probably going to be a really challenging area for technical teams to hire or get really good people in, right, from the senior experience level. So these people are probably going to be like, you're going to be fighting for their attention. It's going to be very competitive, very crowded.

Yeah.

So what comes up for you first? What has consistently been one of the best ways for you to tap into that talent pool? Over to you. You can share whatever comes through. Is it might be referrals? It might be doing X, I don't know. Let's just see where we end up. What's one strategy there?

Do you know, I know this is obviously, um, there are areas you want to touch upon, um, strategies-wise, both candidate and client, right? And I'm going to tell you, there's absolutely no difference what I do with— I don't treat them differently, and I don't necessarily treat one in a special manner than the other. Strategies are always the same. Um, uh, my main thing is blend of activities, blend of recruitment activities, whether that is phone calls, LinkedIn, adverts, referrals. And that's the same applies for clients. LinkedIn, adverts, your own database, phone calls and referrals. Referrals. Yeah, sorry. And the thing is, when you go, let's say when you approach a candidate, you cannot just message like a very basic average stuff. It needs to be super tailored. It needs to be the same way you would approach a client. It needs to be tailored. It needs to be interesting. It needs to be juicy information. It needs to be something that resonates with them. It's something that they need to come back to, for instance, on LinkedIn. So you need to make sure that happens. And that actually starts way back when, when you take a briefing.

Mm-hmm.

So way back when, when you take a briefing, you need to make sure you actually get every single second being super worthwhile with this manager, understanding exactly what the business does, exactly what the role is going to be. Exactly what the day-to-day responsibilities look like, the first 0 to 30 days, the next 30 to 60 days, 60 to 90 days. What is, what is the progression plan? What is the vision of the company? Where are you guys going? Why are you hiring? All these questions actually start forming a really juicy material for the candidate attraction piece. So that's where it starts. Um, so to be honest, my strategies probably aren't any different to what—

that's fine though, that's good. But so just on that though, because people would— might be thinking it— if I was to— there's a lot of things that you could include.

Yeah.

And it will vary depending on the job, company.

Yeah.

But if I was to look at one of your messages, yeah, what would I find most consistently in there in terms of the, the sort of hooks that you're normally trying to get people to go I should reply to Rebecca to go, I mean, what are normally the bits of information you would call juicy?

Okay.

That often make the juicy list. What are the bits? Is it money? Is it the company vision? Is it the industry that they're going to be working in? Is it the languages? Is it the people they're going to be learning from? What have you found to typically be the most common hooks?

Typically, the first line should always be about the individual, whether that's client or the candidate, whatever. Whoever you're messaging, make sure the first couple of lines always tailored. Second line, when it comes to candidates, it has to be about the company. To be honest, the same applies for clients as well. Generally, the strategies are not different.

Okay, that's fine, that's fine.

So in terms of the hooks, it will be tailored about the individual, then company hook. So accolades, achievements, reels, awards, recognition. What are they known for? What are they doing? What is a unique selling point? Why should this person work for the business? That's the second thing. Third thing, technical. Something technical that will literally get them fired up. So that obviously comes from the managers, and this could be anything. This could be the technologies that they're working on. This could be the next level up. It could be the progression plans that they're putting in place. This could be the day-to-day, whatever it is, something technical that you know is going to get the attention of these people. So I always say to my hiring managers, what will get the developers out of bed on a Monday morning? And someone actually said to me, no, listen, if they don't get up and get out of bed on a Monday morning, I don't need them, do I? And I was like, this was rhetorical.

No, I get what you mean. It's like, what is really going to get them going? What's going to get them fired up? I get that. Yeah, 100%.

And then obviously tech, then salary, benefits, call to action. Okay, and it's actually criminal to make a LinkedIn message really long, so just don't do that.

Okay, cool. What about— you mentioned, I know we're like blending the strategies here, which is fine for candidate and client, and, and you're completely right on that. What— because I think that's where sometimes recruiters can go wrong, like, yeah, like what we see in our world, uh, Hector, the biggest skill gap is, is sales, which I'm probably not surprised by that in terms of this development. Yeah, it's people find it really hard for a multitude of, of reasons. One, people— like, so many people get zero training on that. It's just the truth of it. But two, you just have to figure it out.

Yeah.

But two, I think part of it is like, if I think when I started my career in recruitment, I mainly just focused on the candidate side and then I progressed to 360. That's like fairly common. And I think the downside of that is that you can end up putting clients on a pedestal. That's like well covered on this pod, right? So I think, I, I think you're right to go, well, actually I don't even view them differently because then you can always be selling, you can always be trying to get referrals for clients, candidates, right? It's the right mindset, and I think the best recruiters have that. But you mentioned referrals again, something that people know, and their manager would be like, Rebecca, you need to get more referrals.

Yeah, of course.

How, how do we— for you, what's been the most consistent way to get referrals? Like, when do we ask it? How, how have you got better at asking it? To people when maybe you haven't done much for them? Because I don't think it's going to be very effective where— I don't think you're going to get loads of referrals by doing a candidate qualification and then just being like, oh, like, by the way, like, who else do you know?

Hmm, yeah, you're right, actually. I think it's, um, dependent on the conversation and the time and the place, right? So obviously everything has a time and a place. Everything depends on the circumstances and where you're at with that individual, whether it's candidate or client, regardless. So make sure you judge it by the tone and the pace and making sure you can tell if they're going to do you a favor or not. Yeah, because if you're having your first ever candidate qualification or client qualification and you're, oh my God, so who else do you know that you're going to refer me to? They're going to be like, okay, pee off, like, man.

And particularly in the UK market, people know the game, right? They know the candidate flips, they know the fake jobs, they can see through those. It's like, I know you didn't, Rebecca. I know you want to find out where I'm interviewing so then you can get your best developer and then I don't get the job. Like, people see through this shit.

Yeah, but the thing is, you know what, I've never actually, um, especially, um, now more so than ever, I've never found it difficult to get leads. But it's also because time and a place, time and a place, time and a place, tone, time and a place. And you will realize, because you need to be able— like, being in sales, you need to get good at judging a room, right? And you need to get good at judging if this person will be able to open up to you or not. And if you're generally talking to a difficult person on the other end of the line, candidate or client, whatever, and they're generally being difficult and giving you short answers, and then you're like, oh yes, so who are the other 4 people that you're going to refer me to? They're going to be like, I don't have time for you, just get out of here. So generally, for me, it's genuinely dependent on conversations. With candidates, like especially good candidates, I never get off the phone to them unless I've spoken to them for 20, 30 minutes. Like the good, really solid developers that I know I'm going to get excited about the day to take them to the market, going to companies that I know will be relatable, will resonate with the work that he's been doing or she's been doing.

So I was going to say two things. Sorry to cut you off there. No, no, no. I was going to say, When— I know it, it will depend, but when have you found to be the most effective way to get your ask in? Has it been after you've had the successful outcome? Has it been after that you've just done a really good process, you've coached them through it, you feel like you've done a good job, and you're going to know what— I know we didn't quite get where we wanted to this time. Yeah, but I've given you feedback. Hopefully you appreciate that. Yeah, I need to say this, but they maybe feel like that. Then you might ask— what— I know it'll vary. But have you typically found it to be the most effective time once you've done the successful outcome with them, or?

No, I genuinely, I actually don't know how to answer this because with candidates, with good developers, like I was going to say, genuinely on the first call, if I spent 20, 30 minutes, I'm asking on the first call and I'm getting that information. I'm not hanging up till I get that information because I know that they're going to give me that information. Yeah.

Fair. Okay.

Whether it's leads or referrals.

And how, how do you— and then my follow-up on that was like, how do you ask it? Because I think there's different ways that you can ask it, right?

We're not—

we don't need to go into tonality, that's something you're gonna have to work on. But are you asking it in a smart way to be like, look, I'm going to recap what we've just gone through.

Yes.

And look, whilst I have you, who are the best developers that you've ever worked with? Do you know what I mean? You might— you know, my answer like that, but you get what I'm saying. Like, you might ask in a bit more of a smarter way.

Yeah.

Because recruiters do that versus Who else do you know? Who's the best leader that you've worked with?

Yeah.

Or who's the best developers you've worked with on X projects?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, look, just be casual. I actually generally, when you hear me speak on the phone, you will actually not be able to tell if I'm talking to a client or a candidate because I am actually quite casual with them. So I'll just be like, look, I've had such a good conversation with you. Just as a recap of our conversation, this is what you said you do, etc., etc. This is what you want. These are your top 3 motivations. This is your expectation, etc., etc. Okay, fine. Summary. Okay, great. Look, I actually love your background and I would love to talk to people like you as well. Who would you take to your next company, or who do you know, or what friends do you know, or people in your life?

Who would you take to your next company is a smart question.

Yeah, and literally it's just casual.

Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, you don't need to come across like a big thing, do you? Like, oh my God, I'm gonna ask for the, for the lead now. Yeah, exactly.

It's not a big deal.

Yeah, I love that. I know we've clumped them together, but a lot of people, when they're thinking about things— what am I going to do to hit my biz development targets this year— will be thinking, what are my BD strategies? And there will be crossover.

Yeah.

But for you, what's been like the most consistent way for you to open up doors, build relationships, win clients? If we were to dissect your desk, typically over the last year, 2 years, what's been the most con— effective way for you?

Um, again, as recruitment generally is a blend of activities, right? And I generally don't think it's going to be different on the candidate or the client side because the same rules apply. You've got a phone to pick up to speak to managers, emails, you can do your digital marketing, LinkedIn, you can do your digital marketing points, you can ask for referrals for businesses and ask people, who do you know that may be obviously would like my help would actually benefit from speaking to someone like me, even if they don't need me now, but maybe in the future. And it generally, the same applies. But I think what has also been really successful is I work for Opus. Opus is a branded, like, global name. They've traded with so many businesses over the past 18 years, right? There's, and I think this in general, like in sales and whether it's sales or recruitment, people do forget. Think about the people who've already signed on with you and traded with you in the past. Who have signed on with you? Who has traded with you? Who signed on with you? Who's traded with you? Go back through all of the people who've already traded with you and go focus on the relapsed sort of client relationships and relive them again. And like my twin sister, she's head of UK sales for Sixt.

Okay.

And she's class, to be honest. She doesn't actually work on 15, 20 grand deals. She works on like half a million deals, 1 million deals. And she just recently won Warner Brothers as well. And I was just like, oh, for heaven's sake, go away. Just don't talk to me. And the same rules apply to her when she first joined her role because she just got promoted last year. So when she first got promoted, she actually never used to do sales. She used to do operations. And when she first joined sales, she was like, oh, Rebecca is the bottom of the barrel. I can't believe you do sales. How do I even go about it? And I was like, focus on clients who have traded with you. Focus on clients who have already signed with the business. And your job is just to go there and relive the relationship. Look, we've worked with you in the past. We have delivered for you guys. Or even if you haven't delivered, that's okay. Hey, what happened? I would love to make sure that the relationship is back on track. I'd love to get 5, 10 minutes with you and just have an informal chat and pick it up where we left off. And you'll be so surprised how many people are like, oh my God, yeah, of course, we've worked with you guys in the past, it'll make sense to have a conversation. That's where majority of my wins actually came from when I first joined the business in Opus. And then you build on that momentum because then you're obviously going out to the market, then you're winning new candidates, the candidates are going out and interviewing for other places. And whilst they're doing that, they're giving you hot leads. And when they give you hot leads, you obviously go and chase that. And then you start building on this momentum. And then also remember, like, when candidates are leaving a place, if you're speaking to a candidate, that candidate, he or she, is actually going to be an opportunity for you, for you to go and gain more. So whether that is cold leads or hot leads, backfills, CV stripping, whatever it is, keep on top of it and track it. This is something I actually need to improve on even more and more every single day.

Just keep reminding yourself. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, so I love this. I love— and this is, this is a really good reminder for me as well, but the sort of phrase that I like around this, like, don't forget to look backwards.

Yeah.

And if you'll listen to this, you've probably been into recruitment for a little while, but even if you haven't don't forget that like there was probably conversations that you had a month ago, 90 days ago, because I, I think people can often, when it's like, right, Rebecca, how are you going to fit— how are you going to hit your target this year? They think, well, I need to do deals with 10 companies that I don't even know, that I don't even know who I am yet, or I haven't spoken to, right?

Yeah.

And that's always going to be the most challenging, or that's going to be the, the hardest, right? So I think always remember that part of your strategy should be don't forget to look backwards. Yeah. And the longer that you do this for, there's going to be more people that you can reignite that relationship with or you can speak to. So yeah, I think that that's a really smart thing to, to highlight. Um, let's move this on then because we covered a number of things. Let's talk about the process because I know you're, you're big on this and you might do things that, yeah, you are just second nature to you now. You don't even think about, but I think there'll be some good things. We wanted to just map out if we were to, if we were to describe together a world-class recruitment process. Oh God, like, what does that look like? That's what I'm interested to get your take on. So let's just say the context is we're starting from we got referred into a hiring manager because we did a good job with another business, and you got referred in and they've got two senior live, uh, two senior development roles.

Yep.

Maybe they've tried to recruit these themselves, maybe went to an agency, failed.

Yep.

And they're now speaking to you.

Yep.

From that point, you're on the call with them. You might call that job briefing, you might not. From that point, how do we run a slick recruitment process?

Um, so obviously it starts from there, right? So You've got the referral, you get in front of the hiring manager, and you literally— you know how I said to you I demand time of my managers and directors? I would literally do that in that call with the manager. So I'll demand every single piece of information I know is going to make this a success, but I make it about them. So I've always been told this, especially when I joined Opus, you've got two ears, one mouth. Less talking, more listening, and make it all about them. Make it all about them. Open-ended questions. Ask every single little detail you need to find out. Okay, this is not about the job briefing about the two senior roles, by the way. This— I need to understand your situation now. I need to understand where the business is at and what is happening. What do you do? What is— tell me from you. I know what your business does because I've read it on LinkedIn or on your website, but I actually, I can't figure out why it's so special. Tell me what you do. What do you do? How can I get people excited? What is the vision? What is, what is your 2 to 5 year plan? Okay, then we move on to the recruitment. Why are you hiring? What is the plan around these hires? What, what's next after these 2 hires? What does the yearly plan look like? Okay, what are your next 2 to 5 year plan? Do you have huge growth plans? Because that's a bigger conversation. So this needs to be all about the business. Open-ended questions, all about the business, all about the hiring manager, all about making them feel special. And sometimes, you know what, they actually love talking. They love being sat there and being like— and don't get me wrong, there are some hiring managers, they literally sit there and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you're making me do this. Like, I can't tell you why it's so special. I'm like, You really need to find another job.

I'll help you.

But basically, just genuinely, some people actually love talking about themselves and the company and what they're doing and why they're so excited. And obviously, why is it going to be a success? What's going to be next, etc., etc., etc.? Then once you've covered all of that about the business, them, their situation, then you go on to recruitment, hiring plans, future, Great. And then you always make sure you ask about the unique selling point. Without fail, you have to ask, what is your unique selling point? Why should I come work for you? If I was a developer, why would I be excited? Get as much information as possible. The recruitment process needs to be completely about information gathering, gathering, gathering, gathering, gathering, because then you need to almost— when you go to the market with the candidates, you know how I said about when you do the adverts or you reach out to people on LinkedIn or whatever you do, the digital touchpoints, they need to be juicy. They need to be super juicy, but you can't make them juicy just through online research. It needs to come from the people who are actually working there, who are in those seats, who are actually hiring for them. So you start with a briefing, you get as much information. Usually those calls should last about 45 minutes. Up to an hour. Those are like good conversations. And then right at the end, you recap and you agree on the process and the SLAs. Okay? So then you say to them, look, to me personally, it doesn't matter if you give me one role or 10 roles, or you tell me it was needed yesterday, or you can wait. For me, it really, really matters to just have a process that works for both of us. We're both busy people. We need to agree on a service level agreement where you're going to be happy, I'm going to be happy, and I'm not going to have to chase you every single day being like, by the way, I send you these CVs. Do you have any interview requests? Blah, blah, blah. No, I don't want to be doing that, and I'm not going to beg you for your time either. So how can we move forward and what can we agree on? So then you agree on a level of service that both of us are happy with. Once we're happy with that process, ended up with, rounded up with, what is your preferred method of communication? Would you like, do you enjoy speaking on Teams? Do you enjoy speaking on Slack channels? Because I'll tell you for free, like all my hiring managers that I'm working with at the moment, they're communicating with me, they use Teams and Slack channel like WhatsApp, and they're like popping off every 2 seconds. And I'm like, oh, it's funny, you said you didn't have time for a call, but you're literally, you're texting me like you don't have a day job. But literally, Teams, Slack channel, WhatsApp, text message. And when people say email, challenge them because email is actually genuinely like, yes, actually generally it could work. It could. But emails, when you're a hiring manager, can you imagine?

So congested.

So congested. So when they say email, then explain to them, no, look, the reason why I'm asking for your preferred method of communication is to actually make your life easier. Otherwise, I will generally have to pick up the phone to you and chase you for CV feedback, chase you for interview feedback. I don't want to make your life harder. And a lot of people do say, look, just email me. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me tell you why it works, okay? Let me tell you why Teams or Slack channel works. It's actually to improve your process from your end, and your life will not be as hard dealing with me because I will be chasing you.

Um, what does a typical SLA look like? What do you normally agree? Is it that you're going to get interview slots?

Is it that when I send a CV, then I expect Yeah, you should get interview slots on that first initial briefing. I would say if you can agree to certain timelines on that call during the week where you're like, okay, fine, do you know what, I'm going to block out 12 to 2 during lunchtime or after 3 o'clock for interviews, etc., etc., etc. Okay, then fine, I'll send you 5 really good, well-selected profiles between 24 to 48 hours. I just need you to say yes or no, and then I'm going to book them in. That's it. And send me your Calendly link if you have a Calendly link. If you don't have a Calendly link, that's also okay. I can set it up for you. And just make sure you have access to their diaries. If you don't have access to their diaries, make sure they definitely give you their time slots because you need to obviously work around them because they're really busy people. They have their day job, right? Recruitment for us is our day job, but for them, it's actually quite a hassle. So, for them, it's just like, oh God, I need to do an interview during lunchtime.

This is Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. And what about— do you, with that as well, do you outline like, if I share this with you, I expect this back as part of it, right? If I share a CV with you, then I expect— I don't know, with some people you might want feedback before you put them in. Is part of it also agreeing like, this is what I'm doing, the turnaround?

Yeah, agreeing the turnaround. So basically, this is, um, what I mean. So I would usually say like, this is my process, tell me what you would like. And then obviously it's about coming into— in on a middle ground where both parties are happy. And it's not so much telling them because generally I deal with, I'm dealing with a scaling company at the moment where they, it's a Chinese-based headquarter. So their hours are completely different to mine. So you need to obviously—

Be flexible.

Yeah. So it's individual case-by-case basis. Understanding what works for them, understanding what will genuinely— obviously, if it sounds unreasonable, you need to come to a middle ground. But that's where the negotiation starts, right? Understanding the two parties. It's like kind of like dating. If someone goes on a first date and they're like, I want to be married after the first year, and the other one is like, no, I want to be married after 5 years, obviously it's not going to work out if you don't come to a middle ground.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, 2 and a half years.

Love that. I think just a side note, I want to highlight something which I thought We spoke about it already. It's something I never used to ask on job qualification calls, but so important. If the hiring manager of the business can't articulate effectively what their unique selling point is, how do you expect them to sell the job? Yeah, when I'm actually interviewing at that business, I think that's such a big highlight. I know you've mentioned it. Yeah, yeah, I think that's so crucial because you're also— then if they don't do a very good job, you can coach them on that, right? And you can consult on them, but like, yeah. Understood this is such a competitive market. These are some of the things— look, from what you've— what I've learned today, these are the things I think we should be selling more. These are the things that I think should make more of your unique selling point.

Yeah.

So I just wanted to highlight that. And the final thing with this then is when we mentioned outside, how have you got better in negotiating then? Are you normal? Do you— when do we negotiate rates?

Literally right from the get-go. Right from the get-go. So obviously when you're learning about the business, etc., you take the briefing, etc. Sorry, I probably should have covered that from— No, no, it's fine, that's fine. Um, question earlier, but the fees will be something I'll leave right to the end.

You will or won't?

No, will. Okay, right till the end.

So yeah, like we're just going through the process, then you'll be like, okay, cool, we've agreed the process, this is how what it looks like as working together.

Yeah, so I would say, look, our stand fee is 30%, okay? And then just be quiet.

So you, you'd open with Okay, so our standing fee is 30%.

Yes. Shh, don't say anything. And the first person who says something loses. No, but genuinely, like—

So what normally happens then? You say that, then what happens?

I say that and they're like, you're ridiculous.

Surely they're going to be like, that's double what we've been paying. We pay 15%.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually the typical answer is, no, no, that's ridiculous. That's too high. Like, that's not normal. Like, we work to 15%. Okay, how's that worked out for you? And then that opens another conversation. But it generally is about learning about the other person. And look, there are businesses who genuinely need help, but they won't have necessarily the balance to actually pay big fees. And it's about— that's your opportunity to learn and understand that. So recruitment, everything you do in recruitment is about learning and understanding and then reflecting back on that and then reacting. So, if you genuinely sat there and you said, no, look, I genuinely can't, and we do a credit— because we do a credit history background check for every single company we deal with. And if I genuinely can tell, no, they need my help, but they necessarily won't be able to pay such big fees, you have to meet in the middle ground because they need your help, they need the right people, they will probably agree to a really good process, it will work out for everyone. But the fees probably won't be a huge fee, and that's okay, right? But it's about understanding. When you understand, then you can lead with the next. But first of all, I'll start with it's 30%, be completely quiet, and then they'll be like, no, you're ridiculous. And there are some businesses actually generally can pay and they just want to lowball you all the time. But then it's about educating them. So, okay, fine, why do you think that's ridiculous? Okay, but why do you think you can't pay that? And why do you think that we can't charge that? Understand. And once they've, they're done talking, then explain to them what service you can bring. Look, if you want me to do a 15% service, this is what the 15% service is going to look like. I'm not going to pay attention to you guys. You're not going to be top of my priority list. I'm not going to give you first refusal on every single candidate that I'm talking to. And if there are good candidates who can go out, look, I'm in a business where I have to be commercially savvy as well. I'm dealing with clients between 20 to 25%. Why am I going to put them in front of you before the 20 to 25%? I'm also a businesswoman. I'm not here just to serve your needs, am I? I'm also here to serve my own needs. So I'm a businesswoman. If I'm looking at it from a commercial savvy manner, that's what I'm going to do. And at 20 to 25%, this is the service you're going to get. You're going to be top of my priority list. I'll extend X amount of hours every single week, just headhunting for your business. I'll give you the first refusal on these profiles, and you better believe I will be making sure that every single part of the way, there'll be so many, so much information exchange, because part of recruiter, the reason why you use me to get these seniors and the lead hires is not just because I have them in my network, I will be able to close this candidate for you. I will be able to close this candidate for you because I have all the information I need from the people to know exactly what they need to see. I'll make sure you replicate that in your interview process. I will make sure that leaving that room, that candidate likes your job. If you like the candidate, you better believe it's going to be a closable candidate. That's why you're paying me. You're not just paying me because I can just source talent. You're paying me because I can close talent for you. And once they join your business, I'll make sure they stay with your business. I'll make sure you have a good aftercare process. They're genuinely being nurtured and they're happy. And if they're not happy, we can work on that too.

Love it. And have you typically found then people you go through all of that, they're like, okay, well, look, the best we can do is 20, 25, and then you're not going to go, okay, cool. Like again, you tell me, but that, like, obviously speaking with your manager outside, yeah, last year averaged nearly 20%. I think we were talking so common in the UK market where it's like 15%, yep, sweet, I'll take that, right? So used to that.

Yeah.

So I think what everything you've just gone through, I think there's an intentional reason why you start with a higher number.

Yeah.

And then we get down to where we want to. But I think what I'm also taking from this, and I'm also taking this for my own business, is like, it's so important when you deliver these parts, the conversation, this part of the conversation that you deliver with confidence. Yeah, because if you go, uh, yes, we normally work at 30%.

Yeah, they'll be like, okay, I can see it when you're delivering.

Then it's like, we work at 30%. Yeah, that hits very different. And then the negotiation starts. You're willing to negotiate. Let's talk about it. I love those follow-up questions. Yeah, why'd you like— why do you think that's too expensive? Yeah, like really go against the status quo. That's so, so powerful. Yeah, I think people would be interested to be a fly on the wall on some of these negotiations. I know it's something you got better at, right? Where— so maybe let me ask you the inverse, like where, if we were to list some of your negotiation conversations before— yeah, like where was it?

Okay, fine, how many do you want?

Was it more that it was like, right, okay, yeah, they said 50%, let's go?

Of course, are you joking? Like, honestly, I have not gotten to this stage, always being this person, I've generally evolved so much as a recruiter. And I'm definitely not the finished article, by the way, by no means or form. Like, will I ever claim to be the finished article? I can still learn so much. Like, recruitment is such an interesting, ever-evolving industry. I love it. It teaches me something every day. And I'm not just learning about recruitment and people, I'm learning about these big businesses, small businesses, medium-sized enterprises that I'm going into who are actually generally doing interesting work. Like, this is so interesting.

So what would you be in the main, main thing if I listen to your negotiation calls? What would have been the main thing that is different to now? Because you explained to us how you did it. Would be— would it be the delivery, the confidence in delivery? Would it be you wouldn't have been willing to sort of ask the difficult questions like, why is that too expensive? What would be some of the main differences?

I generally was really passive and very much subservient and being like, I have 15%, okay, yeah, great. I know I'm going to deliver it, so it's okay, not a problem, absolutely fine. I think I've started taking recruitment as, look, obviously, as I grow older and I'm in this business, I'm actually, even though I work for Opus, this desk is actually my business. This desk is my own business that I have built and I worked so hard for, and I need to be treated with respect, with equal amount of respect. I'm a partner. I'm not below you. I'm not beneath you. And if you're going to treat me like that, I'm not going to work with you. And there has been people who are like, but if I agree 15% with you, what are you going to do differently? All you do is just— you're like a CV factory and you're just going to be sending us CVs anyway. And I literally said to that guy, I remember having this conversation, and I was like, listen, mate, I have no idea who you talk to, and I don't know which recruiters you deal with, but I absolutely love my job. And if you think that's what my job is, I won't be able to work with you. And then he actually said, okay, I'm sorry, tell me what you do, because he knew I was offended. And I will let you know if you offend me, I will let you know because Do you know what? There is such a huge thing about recruiters being this passive, because if you were a head of dev or a development manager or even a senior developer in a tech company and someone was actually taking the mick out of you, would you just stand for it?

No.

Exactly. So why should a recruiter? Why? Because we're recruiters.

No, no, you're completely right. And I just love this mentality. I did. I posted about the other week, and you won't be— you'll be fully aware of this, that like, okay, these people can look at that way of recruitment, right?

Yeah.

But what's going to be the biggest reason why that company doesn't achieve their goals? Recruitment. They don't have the right people.

You hear recruitment and sales as well. Think about it. Every single company needs a sales team. Think about it. Every single product, every single offering you have You need people to sell it, right? To be successful. Yeah, for it to scale. And for it to scale, what do you need? Recruitment.

Yeah, but I mean, even like, that's what I mean, like that coupled with like my post is like, if you consume any sort of business entrepreneurial content, yeah, what you'll quickly start hearing from people like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, whatever, whoever you want to look at, it's all about the people.

Yeah.

And A-player and getting A-players and getting the talent. It's all about the people. That, that's literally, that's literally it. And the biggest bottleneck as to why you won't get to where you get to is because you cannot get the best people who are the best at what they do.

Exactly.

So this is why we need to believe this. Like, you are solving likely the biggest problem.

Yeah.

Around why companies aren't performing or aren't getting to where they want to get to.

Yeah.

And the quicker you believe that, the quicker you can lean into these negotiation conversations and go, this is why it's so important, and this is why it comes at this, because of the process, because what I bring to the table, and the things that you said.

Yeah.

Let's round this out then. I wanna— because I know you're shit hot on all this stuff, KPIs and metrics. What are your, like, what are your— because people always want to love to learn about this stuff. What are your— let's just start with what do you look at? Because I know you've written some notes on this.

Yeah.

What's like Rebecca's dashboard that gives you a good idea of how healthy your pipeline is? What's likely to happen, not to happen? What are the only things you mainly look at to keep it simple? Because I know there's only a couple of things.

Again, that has evolved over time.

Okay.

When I first began, I used to hold myself accountable to this thing called the perfect day, which basically meant every single morning, like I was saying earlier, I would find a Cristiano Ronaldo of my world or whoever a celebrity name could be. Basically, I'm not fangirling over Cristiano Ronaldo, by the way. But basically find someone really good, someone you can get really truly excited about, and then plan your day around that. And that is exactly what I used to do because at the end of the day, I am in recruitment. You're paying me for my product and my services, and my product is finding someone really, really good. So that's what I used to do. Find a really good candidate in the morning, and then I would do the perfect day, which for me would be sending the marketing, the candidate out to 10 companies, but it needs to be super tailored. What has the candidate done that could be like, like it will hit with the second company that he's, he or she's going to, or what have they done in the past, or what is this company looking for that I know are hiring, but they'll be interested in this, this person's background. So 10 tailored messages to hiring managers, 5 high-quality conversations with hiring managers, whether it's existing past or new clients, 5 high-quality— and these are not conversations where it's like, oh my God, yeah, yeah, we do recruit, but we have a PSL. Um, no, no, no, that's not the conversation I'm talking about. I'm talking about opening the door with this developer and having high— 5 good quality conversations with managers and then adding data around that candidate. So adding 5 new managers as a minimum around that candidate to focus on the location tech industry, location tech industry. That's what I used to focus on. So, let's say, for instance, someone's from Brussels and they did etc., etc., sort of technologies and this sort of industry. I will literally map out the market to make sure location tech industry, okay, fine, where can this guy or girl go? Where can we make sure that we can really market them out to? And you know that they're going to be like, Oh my God, is the Cristiano Ronaldo for our, our, um, industry. I definitely want to speak to them. Um, and yeah, adding data around them. So that usually will be, um, speculative hot leads, um, jobs, etc., new managers around them, 5 high-quality conversations with managers, and 10 tailored messages. And then obviously you do your LinkedIn follow-ups, you basically go so on and so forth. But I would be so obsessed with just working out really good candidates. And that was basically— and there were days where I would have two really hot candidates that I would get absolutely obsessed about, or three hot candidates. But you just rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. So that's what I used to do in the beginning. And then there was a time where, um, obviously, you know, when the boom happened with the— where everyone was hiring, I knew at that point my thing was 6 candidates interviewing in a week. So, 6 candidates interviewing in a week meant 1 deal for me. So, I knew I needed 6 candidates in the process with my jobs or new jobs so I can do a deal that week. So, that's what I would do. And then it evolved again. And now, I know Bone will probably tell you better than I do because he knows me way better than I do when it comes to my desk. This is probably the first time I'm talking about what I do. Before this, I was just like, oh my God, I have zero idea what I do. But now I think it's something like if I get 4 to 5 jobs a month, I'm doing 2 deals. I know that.

They're the main things you look at.

Yeah.

To keep it simple.

Yeah, keep it simple. But for me, it's always jobs, CVs, interviews, jobs, CVs out the door, interviews, jobs, CVs out the door, interviews, and hold yourself accountable every single week. Like industry standard, I'm pretty sure it's like 2 jobs a week.

Yeah. I think I've got here you write down 5 CVs, 3 interviews, and 1 deal.

Yeah, for now, um, my— what I work to now is every single job I get on, I will make sure I have 5 profiles over, 5 profiles over, 3 interviews. I'm dominating that client's time, I'm sending options. I know that that's going to lead to a deal, which actually works out pretty well for now, um, but I know that's going to change. It changes all the time.

Yeah, and then I think you put here last year Your job placement was 2.5 to 1?

Yes, yes.

Which is really, which is solid. Um, okay, I love that. I know because there's so many different things that we can measure, right? But I think it's so helpful to hear how people sort of break this down. Yeah, we covered a lot.

It's like an interview.

Yeah, I mean, look, honestly, uh, thank you so much for going through all of this. I know we prepared for this. I know there'll be a lot of people that will be inspired by this, will really appreciate that you came on, sat down, shared this all with us. But I'm not— honestly, I'm not surprised how successful you've been and how much you're going to continue to be successful. I love your passion. That's come across so well in this conversation. I can tell just how, when you're talking about your goals and your why, how much you light up. Like, you are going to make this happen, and kudos to you on making it happen, on taking another shot, on getting into that 6th gear. I know you're going to say it's not all down to you, but there's a lot of it to do with you, right? There's a lot of things that you could control, that you influenced, and you got yourself to this position. And you've had obviously help along the way, but just wanted to say a massive thank you for joining me on the podcast.

No, thank you for having me. It's been great.