From Zero to £500K in 9 Months: Adrianna's Unstoppable Recruitment Journey

Adrienne, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much, Hishem. Excited to be here.

Joining me from, I'm assuming, sunny Miami.

Yes, yes, it actually is very sunny today, so happy to be here. Always enjoying the weather. I was actually born and raised in Florida, so Florida has been home for a long time. What about you?

I mean, right now it's very, very hot in London as we're recording this, so it's Yeah, it's hopefully, I think, yeah, we're experiencing the same things, but you're a lot more used to it than I am. So look, there's a, there's a number of things I'm really excited to talk through with you today. We're going to talk about mindset, why you've been labeled as Mrs. Positivity despite having, you know, a good amount of adversity at the start of your recruitment career, not doing a placement for a good number of months. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about how you directly working with Jamie and how that had an impact on your performance. Some of the sort of, with hindsight, things that maybe he taught you that you was doing differently. We'll get into all of that. You're in— I've had a lot of people on the podcast where we talk about business development. I don't actually think I've had a lot of people who just do— I said just do, but are just entirely focused on the, development of accounts. So their job really starting once we've signed an agreement with a business. So I think this is going to be really interesting to talk about how you've got really great at expanding accounts, maximizing relationships. So a real sort of account development masterclass. And then beyond that, getting into the, the nitty-gritty of how you become a really great performer, what you think you've done well, meetings, business development, market mapping, and how you've worked closely with your delivery team and how that all works. So there's, there's hopefully everyone listening, there's gonna be a lot of things that we can learn from your journey so far. But I guess before we get into that, do you want to give everyone just a bit of an intro to yourself and then we'll, we'll get into it?

I lead all of our account development globally, so, um, technologies we focus on would be everything across cloud, data security, Microsoft development, ERP. Namely, I do also lead our relationship with Microsoft across Canada, US, and Latin America. My counterpart does the same across EMEA and Asia. Essentially, what that means is I only speak to clients and do the business development portion of that. And then I have a counterpart delivery team that really focuses on the candidate aspect of it.

Love it. So let's get into this mindset piece. Let's start here, right? So as I mentioned at the start, I think you shared with me, sort of labeled maybe in the office as Mrs. Positivity, or in InterX, which, uh, absolutely love that. Do you wanna— why don't we just start with like looking back? Firstly, why, why do you think you was able to come out the other side? Like, I think it was what, 6, 7 months that you didn't do a placement? I'm sure that didn't match up with how you thought it was gonna go. So, I guess just firstly, a bit of an open question, like why do you think you're still here, you know, 2 and a bit years on from experiencing that at the very start of your recruitment career?

Sure, well, obviously, you know, the first 7 months was a pretty challenging time, but I think that I was just able to maintain a positive attitude and mindset throughout by doing a few different things. Firstly, it was really just reassessing and adapting, looking at what was going wrong, evaluating my approach, And overall improving my market understanding was a really big piece of it too, considering I initially joined InterX with no technology background or experience, and then also had to learn everything across, you know, cloud data security, Microsoft development, it was a lot. So really just improving that and focusing on what I could control was a big piece of it, making sure that I was just continuously learning in every aspect that I could. And then also self-care was a really big piece of it. So just making sure that you're getting consistent amounts of exercise, and a healthy work-life balance. And I think that that really just helped to elevate my personal positivity and attitude throughout as well.

Love that. And just, just curious, if I was to speak to your manager at the time and you was in this period, a couple of months where you haven't made a placement, what do you think they would say if I was to say if I was to speak to him about, oh, how's Adrian getting on? What do you think she's doing well? Because I think this is interesting for people listening that might be in this period right now where there's a lot of things that you can control. You might not be getting the end outcome just yet, right, that we're aiming for. But what do you think your manager would be saying about you in that period, um, in terms of things that you were doing? Um, yeah, curious to see what you think they'd say.

So I know what they said. They basically said it was just a matter of improving processes and just kind of speaking to the right person, if you will, because I know in recruitment a lot of times it is kind of a numbers game, so you really just have to maximize output as much as possible. But they knew that I was doing everything that I could in order to get that outcome that we were looking for. So it was never a question of, can she do it. It was more of when will she do it.

So when— if me and you would have a conversation then early on in this period, and it sounds like you was someone that was self-aware, you was looking at things that you can control, where you can improve. What were some of the things early on that maybe kept coming up that you was looking at improving? Out of interest, if me and you had a conversation, it was lunch break Like, yeah, like, oh, what are you struggling with at the moment? What are you really trying to focus on? What were some of the early things that you were really trying to be laser-focused on that you felt should lead to different outcomes and the success that was just a matter of timing?

Yeah, um, so one thing that was big for me was, um, time management. Just because I'm a very meticulous person, I like things to be done to a tee, exactly as they should, everything down to the grammar. And sometimes I spent time doing things or making things kind of too perfect, if you will, when it— when I should have been able to do it at a more efficient pace. So this is something that Jamie and I still focus on on a daily basis, is only spending time on tasks that are going to essentially make you money and not wasting too much time on things that really don't require that much attention, if that makes sense.

So it sounds like you was maybe spending too much time on the things that, yeah, like you said, that maybe might return revenue-generating activities in the long term, but in the short term maybe not. So what would be like, just give us a bit of an example then, out of interest, like what maybe in hindsight, would you spend a bit too much time on trying to be a bit too perfect with, that maybe you shouldn't have?

[Speaker] Well, one specific thing that I remember, and I think that this was misdirection in the beginning, so I know sometimes recruiters will like to, take the names off of their profiles and make it so that it's confidential and really go through the resume and like make the first, you know, 2 organizations also confidential as well. Whereas as soon as I started reporting to Jamie, he was like, why are you doing that? Don't do that. That's a waste of time.

Because that was taking time as well, right?

Yeah, exactly. So when speccing out those profiles and sending them to clients, and there is also a level of trust that comes with it. It's just that, and it also improves the return on the email, I believe.

So if I'm listening right now and I'm in that period of I've started out my career, I maybe haven't had the success that I feel like I should have had so far, like what— and yeah, like I was in the office with you, like what would you be saying to me that would maybe help me in that period? Because What I think is interesting about how this has happened to you, I think I said this to you when we prepared for this, because I would actually maybe argue that people would probably rather have less success right at the beginning, or at least have a bit of period where they don't have as much success as they'd like, versus 2, 3 months in, you was doing all these deals, you had success quickly, and then you have that period of 3, 6 months where that wasn't happening. That can actually be really hard. That could probably be more harder where you have success and then not success and you turn it around versus you had all of those challenges at the start and then you've been experiencing the success. I actually think I'd rather have it that way around from the conversations that I've had. So like, what would you be saying to me if I was in that period right now where things weren't quite coming off? I'm 3 months in. I'd like to think that I'm being positive. I'm focusing on things that I can control.

Like, what would you be saying to me if you have a bit of a pep talk or Yeah, I would say that focus on building strong relationships would be the primary goal or improvement point, if you will, just because, you know, being positive does also help in building strong relationships and vice versa. And I think that especially when it comes to account development and formulating any kind of relationship with a customer or a client, that building those strong network of relationships will lead to everything else coming thereafter. So if you just focus on, of course, hitting your KPIs, everything that you can control, and primarily building relationships with the people you're speaking to, that everything else will come thereafter in due time.

Love that. So let's talk about— and then feel free to correct me here— but I think when we prepared for this, you sort of shared that you started working with Jamie directly, or reporting into Jamie directly. And then was it like a month after that things really started to click or the performance really started to change? Just paint us a bit of a picture then, and we're gonna have to dig into maybe if I was a fly on the wall, what was happening in those initial sessions, things that maybe you took from Jamie. But like, just give us a bit of a picture there. How did things change when you started working directly with Jamie?

So, um, as soon as I started reporting to Jamie, um, it was literally a matter of a month before my trajectory really took off. I would say by month, the second month that that had happened, I was able to close some pretty significant numbers, you know, jumping from closing absolutely nothing to 7 to 8 deals in a month. I think it amounted to $244,000. In new revenue was a really big change, and I really do have him to thank for that.

[Speaker:JAMES] So let's just get into this then. So like, what— like I said, if I was a fly on the wall in these maybe first initial sessions you've shared, he maybe helped you redirect some of your time and energy. Like, what else do you think in looking back, what were some of the things that he maybe helped you see or maybe redirected you? Like, just talk to us a bit about that. What were some of the early lessons when you walked away from the sessions with Jamie that you instantly started to apply, and over time then started to get the different— the outcomes he was hoping for?

Sure. So, um, I think when we really started to dig into things and we conducted like a process audit just to see what exactly was working, what wasn't working, identified challenges that I may have had in certain areas, whether it was handling objections or sourcing for the right profiles and really just breaking down step by step as to how much time that should take me and setting clear goals and expectations in terms of KPIs that we had. And then I think also a big piece of it was he does also emphasize the importance of having a growth mindset, which means, you know, dedicating time to learning and improving every process throughout, even when you are doing well, as something that should always be, should always be part of your everyday activities, I would say.

So what came out of these process audits, out of interest? Like, what were some of the things that you found yourself really trying to be focused on improving?

Yeah, well, initially it was mostly like a time management thing. So initially when I was looking for contacts to add for, to the system for an organization. So account development means that I would target basically all of it. So sometimes these numbers of contacts would be anywhere between 200 and 300. And to start, I was manually putting them into the system, whereas I didn't realize that there was a beautiful system and database that was able to kind of import the majority of those initially. So that saves me a lot of time. And then I Also, instead of targeting every contact in the system, we kind of prioritize those. So starting with, let's say we were looking at a consultancy, we would start with delivery. And then let's say we were looking at an end customer, we would start with directors and then work our way down to managers. He also helped me see that speaking to HR and talent acquisition wasn't the primary goal or the best way to go about doing things, whereas I was spending a lot of time doing that, being that I do both permanent and contract, his focus for me was really contract, and initially my focus was more so perm. So I was spending more time doing that, whereas he would have had me do more like 80/20 contract to perm ratio, whereas for me initially it was probably the opposite. So I think that was a really big change as well. And then how I handled objections was another thing. One thing that Jamie's really big about is, especially with contract, when you first pick up a job and you go to deliver that, he doesn't mention terms or signing an MSA. Let's say that this was a new business up until we already have interviews in place and we're kind of discussing which candidate the customer wants to proceed with. Whereas with permanent, that's something that we need to discuss kind of on the first go-around call just because of what happens when you typically go to HR thereafter. So learning the difference between those two processes was something that I had to do. And my director before Jamie wasn't aware of that process, um, because she, she was hired from another organization and came directly into Interex, whereas, um, all of my other colleagues that had been here for a while kind of knew that. So that was a really big change too.

Now I appreciate you sharing that. It is— there's a lot of, like, if you're listening to this right now, there could be— you could be spending, like, the things that you just mentioned you just needed someone to help you see those bits, that you could do them quickly or in a different way. So I think, yeah, for anyone listening, like, it really encourages you to take a bit of a step back and look at what are you spending time on. Is there a better way? Is there a smarter way that we could do these things? So like you said, with the system piece, there might be things like that that you didn't know. Or, okay, I'm mapping out this account, Let's start with, yeah, like top-down versus bottom-up. So yeah, I think just those lessons there can hopefully encourage people to take a bit of a step back and look at their own desk, how they're doing things, and asking themselves, is there a better way to do it, or is there more of a strategic way to do it? So yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. So when it comes to account development then, Like, I think just to paint a bit of a picture for people, so when we say account development, a lot of your job starts once X client is signed, right? In terms of— so you're less involved in terms of having that client sign terms of interex, but you're more involved of, we have an agreement with X client, how else can we get more of the wallet share and be supporting more of that organization? Besides just this particular unit. Is that right?

Yes. Initially it wasn't so much so, but when I moved into account development, it was utilizing the existing MSA primarily. And then let's say that we had terms agreed with a company based in the UK and we wanted to expand that relationship here to the US. That would be something that I look at as well. So sometimes it does involve a little bit of paperwork, but usually not so much.

So talk to us a bit about, like, let's just, like, I think I want us to get into what does great account development look like. And like you said, there's always, I'm sure there's always things that you feel like still there's things you can improve on, learn, get better at. But I think this would be really interesting because there'll be a lot of people listening to this that have to do account development as well as the net new business stuff. Um, So I think it'd be really interesting to, to sort of for us just focus, uh, for a second on how can people listen to this get really good at maximizing clients that we have agreements signed with, that we have relationships with. So I guess I just wanted to pull it to you first. If we've signed terms of a client and an organization, like, what are some of the first things that you're doing to sort of map out where the other opportunities are going to be? You've mentioned earlier that you would maybe identify all of the different people, but it sounds like that's changed now. But like, what would be the first things that we would do to sort of get a good picture of like where else the opportunities might be in a business, in an organization?

Sure. Um, so I think it all comes down to like research as well. Um, one thing that I used to do, or still do when I'm targeting a new company, is I would just look to see what is available to the public eye. Um, did they just go through a merger and acquisition? Did they just start using Microsoft Copilot? Are they looking to solve a specific problem? Is there an implementation partner that's driving the majority of this implementation? And utilizing that to kind of gain useful information to speak about when going at the clients or customers that you're targeting. Because when you have that kind of market insight, it shows interest, it shows, knowledge base, it shows that you, that the information that you have should be valued, and it kind of separates you from just every other recruiter that's just calling them with no information and just kind of asking questions without having any kind of background or insight there. So I think that that's really important. Obviously targeting the right people, which we just spoke about. And then another piece of it is also identifying which technology the organizations are using because you know, my job is to expand it across every technology. So a moment of that does go into figuring out, okay, are they using AWS or Azure? Are they utilizing GCP? Are they trying to bring in a new cloud? And then making sure that you understand where the key opportunities are and the key expansion opportunities in terms of skill set gaps could be, which could be, you know, taken from ZoomInfo Insights, or it could be taken from, stuff that you find just, you know, on the internet or LinkedIn, for example, but just kind of culminating all that information and putting it together to decide where is the primary area of growth and starting there.

We'll get back to the episode in just one minute, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. The problem with most recruitment CRMs is that they are just a database of records. Meaning they become just one of the many tools that recruiters use every day. Like with all systems, the records are only as good as the data being captured. Our sponsors Firefish know that for agencies to win faster, data needs to be at the heart of their business, making your CRM the single source of truth. With over 10,000 records created and updated every day and 85% of placements from existing candidates, Firefish enables recruiters to enrich and engage their data equipping you with real-time insights needed to win faster. To learn more about Firefish and take advantage of an exclusive Recruitment Mentors Podcast offer, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast when speaking to the Firefish team. Yeah, that's really smart. So it is really about combining that market intel and that picture that you can create by looking at all these different points to then help you understand where you should prioritize putting your energy, focus. I have to ask, right, we started this beginning of this conversation about you not coming from a background in technology, you had to learn these things. And then hearing you talk then, right, so like, what— just, just a bit of a side note really— how besides doing the job, having conversations, being curious, like Is there anything else that you feel like you've done to like accelerate this market intel? Because like, yeah, I think there's, yeah, there's, there's different things that we can do, right? But clearly in this, you know, coming up to 2 years now, you've really understood more of the landscape and the way that you're talking there. So like, what, what do you feel like you've done to really grasp that and, and pick up on the, the market knowledge and understanding beyond just speaking to candidates or different people? Is there anything that you've done there?

So, um, I, I've always been kind of like a teach-it-yourself person, so I, as much as I wanted to just crack out a technology book and start reading from top to bottom, Jenny said absolutely not, you're not doing that. So, um, all of the information that I learned comes, came directly from the candidates that I was speaking to, which is why initially I did that, um, I don't know if you would call it 360, but I did speak to candidates and clients combined initially, but really it was primarily just to learn all of the information that I would need to progress into account development successfully.

So really just being curious, asking questions. If I was listening to your calls, I might hear you say, oh, like, tell me a bit more about that. Oh, that's really interesting. Like, yeah. So is that really— Yeah, I think sometimes that's overlooked for people.

I mean, the candidates, they like to tell you about what they do, you know. So if you just explain, you know, I'm just learning this technology enough I'm not entirely familiar with it. Could you please just let me know what the heck you're talking about? They'll just walk you through it and they'd love to just go in detail. And then that combined with the information that you learn on client meetings and speaking to more senior stakeholders really helps you put everything into perspective.

And then I'm curious because I feel like this is something that you've probably got better at and will continue to. But you mentioned there a lot of different bits of information that you might look for and see. Just curious to hear your take on what are some of the pieces of information or intel that if you found that out would get you very excited about what the growth opportunity might be like? What are some of the bits that you're like, if I see this, then I do get really excited because I feel like this could mean that they should be looking at if they're not already leveraging contract talent and whatever it may be? Like, just share a bit there if you don't mind, because I'm sure this is something you're getting better at, just really connecting those dots, um, on, yeah, what, what gets you excited depending on, yeah, what intel gets you more excited than other bits out of interest.

So, um, a big piece of it is any company that's undergoing a transformation, um, whether it is like an ERP transformation, a digital transformation, um, anything like that means that there's going to be a very exciting project on the horizon and typically means that they're going to need a lot of contractors. And the reason is because a lot of times these projects will be for a short duration of time. So they don't want to, you know, just hire someone full-time for a project that's only going to take 6 or 12 months to complete. And that's why a contract is the primary mode of action for that. So anything across any kind of transformation, I would definitely be very excited about. And then whenever I see also either like on Microsoft or Amazon that they are leading a new implementation for a customer, I think that's another really vital piece of information that typically means that there's going to be some area or avenue for them to acquire contractors through staff augmentation. But in our case, we're also tier 1 suppliers to Microsoft, so we can also support ISD on this engagement. So I think those two are really important. And then of course, you would just check your database to see if we've already done business with the customer. If we have, then that even makes it easier as is.

And how are you— just curious on like, how are you obtaining this information of like the transformation? Is that again through speaking to candidates and hearing it secondhand? Is this like public information? Like how How does that normally work, out of interest?

Well, one thing that you could do is, as a recruiter, you should have access to Recruiter. You could look at a director of digital transformation that's just recently moved into a new organization, because if somebody just moved, then if a company just hired a director of digital transformation, that means that they're going to be starting a new one. So one thing that we do as an organization is we look and, and find specific clients that have just moved to a new organization, um, for a role that involves any kind of digital transformation, right?

That makes sense. And then this might be where you tie this all together, but let's just say that's something that a lot of recruiters do, right? How are you approaching that person without getting lost in the noise, right? Because I feel like a lot of recruiters can get access to the information that they've just raised a Series A round of funding, and then as you can imagine, they're going to get inundated with, hey, just notice you raised this, congrats, assuming you're not going to be hiring. So that information, I'm sure, can lead to these people getting approached left, right, and center. Like, how— what are you doing to have the best chance of that person coming back to you versus the other person?

So there are a few different ways to look at that. In my case, for account development, we should already have an existing MSA with this customer. So I would start off by saying we're a key partner to Microsoft. We've, you know, deployed over 500 contractors, 500 contractors in the past year and a half across these technologies. I'd love to discuss how we're currently assisting your colleagues. So that's one way. Another way is to, let's say that this was a new customer that we hadn't already worked with. I would then go into the company's LinkedIn and speak to candidates working for that company already that would be in a role involving the kind of digital transformation that we already know is about to ensue. And use that project information when targeting the clients and when speaking to them on the phone, because that's how you gain relevant and pertinent information that you can utilize when targeting the customers that you're speaking to. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that does. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think if you're, like I said, if you're in your seat leveraging your track record, uh, credibility that way, and then yeah, using information in the, in the, yeah, making what you are sharing relevant to that person.

Okay.

Yeah, that's really interesting. So where that you might sort of, you can maybe answer this by looking at yourself or where you've improved, but Where do you feel people might often go wrong with successfully developing an account out of interest? Like where? Yeah, I don't know what you think about that. Like where do maybe people go wrong when it comes to successful account development?

So I think that it really just sticks to two points that if you can make sure that you do these properly, that it would eliminate a lot of issues firsthand. And the first would be like overlooking the organizational structure. A lot of times these companies will have weird job titles or different anomalies in specific descriptions for the candidates, and their role within the organization is different from, from customer to customer. So I think that enough time has to be dedicated to understand the hierarchy in order to figure out every aspect of the company, every technology they're using, and utilizing that to the best of your ability, and then also utilizing every data point that you can in order to make the best educated approach. So I think that not utilizing, you know, data you have from previous interactions with a specific customer, or mentioning that your colleague had spoken to this person in the past, or gaining these specific market insights that are available to you on ZoomInfo can be detrimental towards your initial approach and essentially waste time.

Yeah, I think that, that first part, yeah, you can't get complacent with like, oh, the last time I mapped out this organization, this person in this seat had this job title, just always being, yeah, open. And yeah, that's a really interesting point. So you said that you was, you're someone that's meticulous, very process orientated. So let's just sort of move this on then in terms of we've done a good job of mapping out an account. Um, something that you shared with me when we prepared for this is like a good week for you, um, and your target is like 20 meetings a week that you're sort of aiming for. So just talk me through— and, and you shared with me, I think the, the biggest wins that you've had in booking in these meetings has been through the phone and being sort of phone first. Um, talk me through like your typical process of taking— you've mapped out an organization, you've done a good job of understanding what the job titles are, who you want to prioritize your outreach and sort of, um, energy towards. Like, just talk me through your process of taking like, yeah, I can see these people, these are the people that I want to meet, how are we turning that into I'm now on a meeting with yourself, like what's worked, what's been working for you.

Gotcha. Um, so after we do the mapping, and, um, I think that just maximizing digital touch points is important too. Um, someone's more likely to give you a yes if they've already seen your name via email, um, on LinkedIn multiple times, and come up through their, um, their phone systems too. So I would say that I always start with connecting with them on LinkedIn. Um, and then another interesting point is that sometimes these organizations will allow you to send a message on Microsoft Teams. Obviously Microsoft is one of them, but sometimes end customers, they will allow you to just send them a direct message on Teams, which I think is a really great way to reach someone, because then that goes directly to their, somewhere that's visible for them to see what that message actually says. And then at that point I would reach out to them via phone. And obviously when you actually reach out to them via LinkedIn and when you send them emails, it's important to personalize this information, make sure that you're tailoring it to the type of role that you're actually going after. I guess more so in my case because I do cloud data security, all of that involved. So I think that personalization is another important piece. And then once you actually get them on the phone, I'm just making sure that you are being persistent respectfully, flexible in terms of timeframes, and that you actually provide value in terms of making sure they understand the solution that you would be offering them, whether that is mentioning previous contacts that you've worked with already, your placement history, your turnaround times, any kind of unique selling points that would really make you stand out on that initial phone call, because a lot of times Yeah, well, you should be able to book a meeting on that first call anyway. So as long as you do those things and you demonstrate the value that you can add, then it shouldn't be an issue to just get them on a call from there.

All right, let's break this down a bit because I think it'll be helpful for people. So we've got— so you've got a process that sounds like it's really working for you. So we're trying to get in front of them before we maybe make that sort of phone touchpoint, right? So we're connecting with them on LinkedIn. If we're able to, we might drop them a message on Microsoft Teams, then we might follow up with a phone call, an email, etc. So just curious then on the Teams bit, what are we being mindful of there? Because we're sort of showing up— I love that approach because it's probably going to be uncongested, right? Or not as congested. So with that in mind, with that context in mind, what, like, what are we trying to get across there? Are you like, what would like an initial message maybe sound like? Sort of calling out the fact that, appreciate I'm sending a direct message here on Teams, we haven't spoken before, this is why I specifically reached out to you. Like, how are you— I'm sure you experiment, but typically how are you trying to approach that initial point there? Because I think that's interesting that you're using that as a channel.

Yeah, um, I think that since it's a message on Microsoft Teams, you also want to make sure that it's not too long, just because I feel like then people will just skip over it and not get back to you. So I always start with Who I am and where I work, obviously. I'm the lead client executive here at Interex, and we are key partners to Microsoft, for example. And then I mention the reason that I'm reaching out. So let's say that it was an account executive. I would say something like, recently we've had a lot of success speaking with account executives to discuss potential partnership opportunities that are a little bit unconventional, yet fruitful for everyone involved, and I would love the opportunity to speak with you to discuss the value that we can provide we've already been providing to some of your colleagues or something like that. And if it were another end customer, I would probably mention some key contacts that would be instrumental that they would like kind of read and recognize and be like, oh, I know this person. And if she knows them, then she's probably a trustworthy contact and they'd be more inclined to respond.

I love that. I do really like how whenever you've mentioned these things that you're really trying to leverage like the network and like, yeah, like put those bits in there that instantly should hopefully, yeah, for the person receiving that, like you just said, come across credible or like, yeah, I think that that's just a really smart way to do it. What about, is it going to sound pretty similar on the phone? Like if you've done those things, I still haven't responded, you've got my contact number with Zoom info, whatever. How are we approaching those phone calls out of interest? Like, what have you really tried to refine there and focus on when having that initial conversation on the phone out of interest after the LinkedIn and the message, maybe of an email as well?

Sure. Well, the first thing I always mention is that we're a partner because that will get past, I would say, 50% of the roadblock of booking a meeting with someone. And then I would segue into who I am, where I'm calling from, and then from there I would probably mention some contacts. I would look on their LinkedIn profile and see, oh, okay, you know, I've worked with this person and they're connected on LinkedIn, meaning that if I mention this person's name on the phone, they'll recognize it. So then I would, you know, mention, oh, we've done some work with this person. I saw that you are a colleague of theirs and that you guys have spoken in the past. And then I would, Probably segue into booking a meeting. I know a lot of times when we're chasing like leads and PI, the natural thing to do would really be to try to book in an interview and sell in a candidate. But just because my role is more of an account development, building relationship aspect of it, my primary goal is to book a meeting because then at that point we can dig into their pain points and evaluate solutions from there.

And what do you think? Yeah, that, that makes complete, complete sense in terms of like you're taking the— obviously I'm sure there's medium-term wins that we can get, right, being an account developer. But also you're trying to build the long-term success here, right, of developing these accounts. This isn't just going to happen overnight, right? But why, if I was someone on the end of that phone, like why What would be the main reason you think that they would be happy to jump on a meeting with you out of interest? Because I think that's important for people to understand, like, what is it like? Why would they be compelled to have a meeting with you?

Yeah. So one thing that I always mention is that we have access to a network of professionals that other agencies wouldn't normally have access to. So I think that that's what really sets us apart as an organization. So it's mentioning, okay, so you know, obviously you work with other recruiters, you have an internal team that's going direct to market, but most of our professionals in our network works with us exclusively. So this would be an additional pool of professionals for you to consider for requirements. So it's helpful when we're looking for a very niche skill set or maybe a resource in a specific location where resources tend to be a little bit more scarce. So we would be providing them with something that no other agency could, and I think that that's really important. I think that the value is, is pretty evident there. And then of course, there's also the timeframes of it. We typically work on a 24 to 48 hour timeframe for delivery for anything contract, and speed is always an important factor when dealing with these kinds of things. Obviously, there's other timelines in place, deliverables that need to be met, so I think that time is another really important thing to note. But again, just mentioning that we have an existing relationship with them and, you know, sometimes an objection will be, "Oh, well, I'm not looking for anyone right now." I would just simply say that, you know, my purpose wasn't to discuss an objection or discuss a requirement on this first meeting. It would really be just to establish a connection that way when and if something arises in the future, we would already be connected.

Yeah, I love that. So then let's get into some bits on this meeting then, because I'm sure, like you've said, in terms of building your success and building up your contract book and turning around, um, your performing performance, a big part of it would— will be maximizing these meetings, leaving a good impression, building relationships. So how do you— like, I say yes to that meeting, we book it in, How do you sort of mentally think about these meetings? Like, what makes one of these meetings a good meeting? Because I know it's not going to be that you walk away with a requirement, right? That isn't what we're just trying to focus on here. So when you get these meetings in and you have a really successful week, you book in 20 meetings, how are you preparing for those mentally? Like, what— how do we think about these being good meetings firstly?

Sure. Um, so I would say, uh, the seniority of the contact that you're speaking to. Depending on who you're speaking to will determine whether or not there's a possibility for you to gain a specific requirement or a team build on that first call. If I'm speaking to an account executive, the purpose of that would be for an introduction. So there's not going to be anything that really happens on that first call. Whereas if I'm speaking to a delivery director for, you know, a very large piece of the organization, then obviously that there's there's going to be some need there no matter what. So that would be prioritized effectively. Then I would gather and review all the information that I can, make sure that I know everything possible about who this person's spoken to from my organization in the past. If they are looking for something particular on LinkedIn, is the organization hiring for something in their specific subdivision or category? Have we worked with them already, obviously. And then I would develop these objectives based on that information. That I find, prepare meeting materials, making sure that I have, you know, sometimes I go over specific PowerPoints that are related to the organization that I'm speaking to, and then just anticipating what kind of objections or questions they would have based on, on that information, making sure I have everything handy, and then kind of going at it from there.

Yeah, we've got, we've got to take this preparation seriously.

Yes, but you have to do all of that in about 10 minutes.

Yeah. And then what, what if you walk off those meetings and you feel like you've done a good job? What do you think you would have done a good job on? Is it articulating the problems that you solve, or doing a good job of bringing up relevant case studies, or like, I don't know, like what, what do you— what makes you normally go off these meetings going, you know what, I've done a really good job there? Out of interest.

The number one thing is identifying the pain. If I jump on a call and I'm just basically talking about myself the whole time, as much as I love doing that, that wouldn't necessarily be a good call. What makes it a good call is really finding out an area of need and assessing where there is a challenge in terms of hiring. You know, maybe it's a specific skill set, maybe there's a project coming up that they know they're not going to have the bandwidth for, or maybe there's, there's just one specific skill set that they're having a hard time with, and we really dig into why that is. And then at that point, I would offer a solution or explain InterX's capabilities based on whatever they're, they're trying to solve. So the number one thing would be identifying the pain, I would say.

Whilst we take a short break, I wanted to take a moment to chat to you about one of our amazing partners, Sourcewell, the industry-leading recruitment engagement platform. I'm using myself and I don't know what I would do without it. From building personalized messaging cadences across a variety of channels to automating follow-ups and data tracking straight back into my CRM. It's really made an impact in streamlining my workflow and most importantly, accelerating my sales results. My favorite feature by far is the live feed. By being able to see in real time who's engaging with your campaigns, it enables me to prioritize my outreach with the most engaged prospects, which helps me get way more out of what I put in. So I'm gonna be honest, if you haven't got Sourcewell and you're a recruiter, I really believe you are at a disadvantage. To find out more and see the platform in action, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. Because you listen to this podcast, you're gonna be able to get access to an exclusive offer, free 50 phone credits, 50 email credits, which is at the value of circa £500 per user. So make sure you mention the Recruitment Mentors podcast and click the link in the show notes. And then, um, I'm sure— feel free to correct me here— but I feel like in your position, a lot of the, the wins are maybe aren't going to come from that first meeting, but doing a good job of understanding the pain, maybe what's on the horizon, walking away with some really useful information there surely a lot of the wins come later down the road. So how, like, if we do a good job of that, are you making sure that you then sort of say, well, because of what I've learned today, let's get in a sort of monthly sync, or like, I don't know, like, how do you think about next steps and following up effectively? Because I feel like that's got to be really key here, right? And I'm sure some of the accounts that you've won been 6 months down the line or however long. These things take time. So yeah, how do you think about the follow-up piece and being smart there, out of interest?

Sure. So it just depends on the client, I would say, receptibility to it. But of course, monthly, monthly sync-ins would definitely be a great way to do it. And then I always say, I'll throw a monthly calendar invite onto the books, and then if for some reason there's nothing to discuss, just decline the day before, and I'll know that we can meet the following time. That way they don't feel like they're signing up up to meet with you every month. It's just if, if the opportunity is there, if there's something to discuss, then great. But a lot of times if that's not the case, if I feel like that, that won't be relevant for either me or the customer, then I'll just, I always book in a follow-up meeting. So unless there really just is no reason for us to work together, unless it just does not make sense, if there's any opportunity that could be on the horizon or anything that could come up in the future, then I always book a follow-up, whether it's 1 month, 2 months, 3 months, even sometimes 4 months down the line.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's definitely going to be key. So you're not going to— correct me if I'm wrong here, but you are not going to be successful in the position that you're in without having a great delivery team or like support there, right?

So of course not.

So, um, yeah, I'm just really curious. I think we spoke about this when we prepared Obviously a lot of people in the UK operate the 360 model, so they're doing the resourcing, they're doing the client development. So I'm sure like this is again something that you've got better at and will continue to, but like just, just talk me through how— what's like key do you think when it comes to account development, working really well with like the delivery and your peers there? Like just talk to me about that. What do you think is like crucial and fundamental to getting that relationship to work really well when it comes to maybe communication or maybe things that you've had to improve on when talking about the brief and really over-communicating stuff? Just curious on what you think has, yeah, has to work really well and you've had to do a good job of when getting the most out of the great team on the delivery side.

Sure. So you really said it. The first things first is just fostering open communication. And we really have to make sure that they feel comfortable coming to you with questions and that we are doing the right thing when it comes to delivering the information to them, defining the roles and responsibilities without overloading the information. So that comes down to the job qualification in itself. Sometimes, you know, customers will give you a whole job description, but that's completely irrelevant. And a lot of times why they can't find the right people is because the job description has just like so many things on it. So I think that the first things first, you ask, okay, what are your top 3 key priorities, and then you really just write those down simply, and then you have your notes in conjunction with the job description if there is one. A lot of times there isn't, but really just making sure that you speak to the customer to understand not only what are their 3, 3 top priorities, and then what will this person be doing. Because a lot of times when you ask what they'll be doing and what the project actually is, you uncover things that are even more so important that maybe weren't mentioned before. So I think that that's really important. And then of course relaying the information to the delivery delivery team, making sure that there is open communication in case they do have any questions, and then implementing a process for them to go through everyone you have in our, in your network, and then how we actually reach the shortlist from the longlist and how that information is delivered back over to me. Because in the end of the day, we are trying also to optimize time here and just setting goals and expectations based on those.

Just, I think that'd be interesting for people if you don't mind sharing, like what, because I'm sure again you'll always be refining, trying to improve it. What, what are maybe some of the things that you've done over the last 6 months that you think has made that more efficient, that long list to shortlist? I'm assuming it probably starts with doing a good job at the beginning, so there's clear communication, clear stuff on the non-negotiables, like what these, these people must have done this for them to even make the long list. Because if you do a good job of that then there's the quality is going to be better right from the get-go. But what are some of the things that you've maybe implemented on the process to make it more efficient for this delivery team to do an even better job for you? And that long list goes to shortlist effectively really quickly. Anything that you've done there? Any lessons?

Yeah, so there's a couple of things I would say. One, in terms of when we pass over a job description and a job qualification, if it lists, if they want someone who has experience with Java and.NET and Laravel, then I also need to understand how many years of experience they have with each technology. And sometimes I even ask for like a proficiency level from the candidate themselves. Now, of course, you have to take this with a grain of salt, but it does help to kind of put it, paint a picture as to where they are in terms of skillset. Obviously checking references on these candidates and making sure that we can back up all of the information that they're giving us important too. Let's see, and then having multiple eyes go over the long list is also an important thing. We have a head of delivery that works with us here, and that, you know, really takes everything, puts it into perspective. And then not only is it, at this point it's probably going to be about 3 or 4 people that really take a look at it to ensure that we're providing the most accurate information that we can, and that it's really going to be Our motto is that the client should hire from the first shortlist that we send. So, we send the best 3, and 9 times out of 10, they're gonna hire from that initial shortlist. So, it should be that essentially.

Yeah, I love that proficiency bit. That's a really good tip. And like how, okay, yes, they have to have this, if we're talking about tech, they have to have, they have to be proficient in this, but how many years experience have they had? And like, yeah, just making sure that, that's really interesting in terms of refining those bits. And then you said in terms of going from maybe like delivery consultant to before anything gets to you, that it's already— it's been looked at and like a head of delivery is happy with that initial shortlist. And then do you have like one contact that you might go through that with rather than trying to communicate your feedback to like 5 different people to sort of streamline there as well?

Exactly. So I usually work directly with the head of delivery just to kind of All pieces of communication really, just because that way I'm not getting bombarded with 15 questions about 15 different positions that we have on all day, and right back to that time management piece. So I'm just communicating with him everything that I need, and then essentially he sends me what he thinks should be the final shortlist, and then based on that, I will make the best decision based on the information I got from the client, and then at that point it should just be streamlined from there. So whenever we're sending out a shortlist, if we're looking for someone that is supposed to be a.NET rockstar, then I should know exactly how many years of experience they have and even their own proficiency level. And I provide that directly to the client so that they can understand as well. And they're not like sifting through pieces of information, looking through a resume, because sometimes it's not very clear. So I think everything just needs to be listed on that email so that it's very black and white and essentially saving time for everybody.

I love that. And then if you was— yes, if he was working with a delivery team, you've got a number of contractor roles with a client, what's like the cadence? Like if we were doing that right now, what— just curious, like what's the, the rhythm each week of you communicating with delivery? Out of interest, have you— if that— if you're in that position, have you got like a weekly, maybe even daily sync with head of delivery Just curious there in terms of how you've matched that up, because I'm sure they'll be supporting other people, other parts of the business with different things. So what have you sort of perfected that in terms of if you've got live things that they're working on and supporting you with, what the sort of daily or weekly communication looks like, out of interest?

Yeah. So, so to be honest, he sits right next to me, so it's probably like a day.

Yeah, that helps.

It's more of like a daily communication. We did try and do like the weekly sync-ups, but every day is different. So like a lot of times when we would put those times in the calendar, like if I have something to discuss now, then we kind of just need to adjust as needed. But it ends up being more of like a daily communication. In the morning we discuss, you know, what needs to be addressed first, what I can expect to get from him by end of day and what time I can expect to receive that. That way I can plan my day appropriately and kind of time out exactly who I'm going to send what to at what time and kind of just take it as is and do it from there. But I feel like a recruiter's day, as much as we try and block times out to do specific things, it kind of just, it changes every day. So there's no way to kind of anticipate that other than just ensure that there's constant communication throughout.

And just last question on this. I'm going to give you this sort of like reverse, so it'd be interesting to hear what you, what you, uh, think. But if I'm listening to this and I have the, the luxury and privilege of working with like a great delivery function, head of delivery, whatever, if I was to speak to your head of delivery, what do you think would be the things that you could do as an account manager to really make that delivery person frustrated and make their job difficult out of interest? So like, like, yeah, like what do you think? Yeah, because I think this is a good lesson for people to maybe view it in that way. We've spoken about your proceed, like your process and stuff, but yeah, what do you think he would say that you could do badly or like that would make his job difficult?

Yeah, a couple of things. One is overpromising in terms of timeframes. We have to just—

What, to the client? Overpromising to the client?

To the client. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I'm always very respectful about that, whereas I understand this is what we typically do, but let me just make sure there aren't 50 other things that we have to do before that, before I, you know, tell you that this is exactly when you'll receive this at that time. So just making sure that I'm receptive to the entirety of the organization's needs in terms of delivery, not just my own. And then the second thing that I would say is making sure that that you only put on the job qualification exactly what the client says. So even though, like let's say for example, the client wants a senior architect, you in your head think that this person should have over 10 years of experience, but the specific technology that they're speaking about could have only been around for 2 to 3 years. So I think that it's important not to put things on there that should be there as opposed to, or what you think should be there, and only to put exactly what the client says. And then kind of have a discussion based on it from there because there have been many times where we're looking for, let's say, maybe like a Fabric architect and Fabric Microsoft technology has only been around for a short while of time. So I think that that is another pertinent piece of information that we should definitely be mindful of.

I love that first bit, salespeople are great, overpromising, right? So I think that's the quickest way to piss off your delivery team and say that, yep, no worries, we'll get you a shortlist in 8 hours. Yeah, yeah, I love that. So let's round this out. I think, you know, when we prepared for this, you said you recently broke the 20K weekly GP mark, which is absolutely awesome. I love stories like this where maybe we didn't get off to the dream start, but you've turned it around, you persevered, you've focused on your craft, your still always going to be thinking how you can get better. Um, what, like, what are you now— I'm sure there's a few things, but what are you like being laser focused on, or what are you really going to double down on going, going into your third year of recruitment that you think is going to enable you to keep building on the success that you've had so far? Like, what are you sort of really trying to focus on, be laser focused on, that you think should hopefully help you continue achieving your goals?

Yeah. I would say that it's really just banking on introductions. Obviously, if we're already have an existing relationship with an account and you speak to the right person, you know, if you ask them to introduce you to another partner that per se could be looking for someone or a customer that really needs some assistance a lot of times, and I'm finding this out now more so than before, that they're really receptive to those introductions. And a lot of times those introductions are really easy way to book a meeting, which will, will evidently grow your book and your desk a lot quicker. So I think that banking on those introductions, always asking for them, very important. And then also speaking to HR, TA is another important piece of it as well in order to ensure that you're basically breaking into the entirety of the organization. So also spending time doing that along with speaking to the directors, managers, so on and so forth is important. And then just building enough of a relationship with someone to ensure that you're the number one person they come back to whenever they need someone in the future. So that will come down to timeframes, that'll come down to communication, delivering things when you say you're going to, keeping your word, but just building a very lasting relationship with these customers. That way they'll come back to you and ensure that you're growing your desk as quickly as possible.

Love it. Well, look, thank you so much for joining me. Uh, excited to see where you are in another year's time. Like I said, kudos to you on everything that you've achieved so far. Uh, your story could have very easily been tried recruitment, didn't work, right? But you turned that around. Always respect people that are able to do that. So thank you so much for joining me, and, um, yeah, excited to see where you end up in another, another year and see your career unfold from afar.

Thank you, Hishem. It's been exciting, and I'm sure will continue to be. It was a pleasure speaking with you, and hopefully this won't be the last.